Numerous people have found through out of body exploration that lower realms do in fact exist.

Such sources tend to find that it isn't a matter of a higher level being punishing a spirit, but rather a matter of a spirit going to a realm that matches it's overall mindset/vibrational rate. On the other hand, some people have found that you can make contact with higher levels of being even while in the physical. Therefore, it isn't simply a matter of whether or not a spirit occupies a body.

Some people believe that all spirits go to heaven regardless of how they lived their life while physical, and if a person says differently, this means that this person is unloving and judgmental towards those who "possibly" end up in a lower realm.

With the above in mind, I have three questions:

1. Are the people who claim that they have found through out of body exploration and other means that lower realms do exist, misinformed, delusional, or simply not telling the truth?

2. If they have found that lower realms exist does this automatically make them judgmental and unloving people?

3. If people say that lower realms don't exist and that a person like Adolph Hitler goes to a higher realm right away, what is their basis other than opinion for stating this?

I know for a fact that realms of a lower vibratory rate exist, for I have had experiences in them.  Because of the infinite nature of our multidimensional existence, dimensional levels of every possible vibration exist, and then some... actually, the variations are infinite.  Therefore it is only logical that these seemingly "lower" realms exist.  

I am positive that the newly deceased phase to a level that is equal to their own vibrations.  Therefore, one person may have a totally different afterlife experience than another.  One may be more "heavenly" or "hellish" than another, but these terms are fundamentally flawed to begin with.  You create your experience in the afterlife from your beliefs and thoughts, just as you create it here in the physical.  The main difference is that there, your thoughts manifest nearly instantaneously.  

I believe there DOES exist a heaven type place where all people go regardless of their energy type, for everything ever possible exists, there are no limitations to experience... However, this place will most likely be a "hollow heaven" dimension, created by those who hold this belief with a like energy signature, where it SEEMS like every human goes strait there.  

The claim that all humans go to "heaven" immediately after death is basically wrong.  Most people have a false idea of the afterlife.  They believe "heaven" to be whatever their particular religion says it is (all of them are flawed).  These people may very well find themselves in a "hollow heaven" if they hold their beliefs strong enough.  

I can't add to this one guys in that I've no experience.

It's perhaps worth saying though that the situation may be more complicated than above.

Eastern teaching suggests that while we initially end up in a reality or bardo that reflects our expectation (which may be the realities many have visited), that we subsequently move on and in some way separate from the very high level of identification we have with individual selfhood/personality in physical life.

And that we then proceed to experience some form of life review where we as a result of dropping our personal prejudices can truly 'see' our behaviours and their results.

The more negative karma we've generated, the more shocking this is likely to be to us - we can't in this state whitewash issues using selective perception to we avoid seeing as we do in life.

It seems that if we're not sufficiently realised to avoid it that we out of a sense of loss develop an urge to reunite ourselves with our personality, and that the resulting restoration of a personal 'self' leads to the possibility of fear - the level of fear depending on how negative the karma revealed during our life review was, and how well able to transcend fear of the consequences we are.

Which fear can result in our being driven into rebirth in realms ranging from the hellish to the very pleasant. The lower realms are said to be so painful and the pleasant so unchallenging that both  eliminate any possibility of spiritual growth in the subsequent life. Human realms are the middle ground - tough enough to drive learning, but not so tough as to reduce us to animalism.

The advantage available to those realised enough to remain unattached to the need for a personal life is to of course avoidance of the forces that drive us into re-birth into any of these realms - the realms are collectively termed 'samsara' - they can opt to move to higher levels, or to be reborn to help other beings.

The million dollar question for me when i read accounts of afterlife experience is whether what's perceived is the whole story, or just a part. Or even whether the people we meet and recognise are true people, or perhaps mostly discarded shells/personalities - parked while the absolute self (i hesitate to use the word soul because it has so many meanings) is on other business.

My reason for wondering about this is because of the way that (I think Richard Rose said it) those met don't seem to have a lot to say about the specifics of the afterlife, and what's going down.

It suggests to me that such beings are possibly not consciously fully aware of what's happening, that there are other more fundamental forces that drive our becoming in the bardos. That's not by the way to say that we don't encounter absolute beings.

A more radical possibility. Is it possibly the case that absolute selves take these personalities off the shelf like a piece of software and put them on to create their learning context when heading into their next incarnation?

Hi,

During my NDE I experienced hell like realms and heavily realms, but not the Christian hell of eternal everlasting torment. I agree if this were the truth then God is worse Than Hitler (I am not binging him up again as this persons fate was addressed in another thread)

If one thinks deeply about the view most fundamental Christian believe about hell. It is completely horrific and unspeakable cruel. Think about a person because of a finite transgression, being tormented by an infinite being in an infinite way. Burning in sulfur for an eternity day and night forever and ever in linear time. Exist in torment forever, God do this, not my lovely father God!!!!!!

A second in this place would be hideous beyond human thought. Think of taking a little child’s hand and forcing it onto red-hot burning stove plate for just 10 minutes, would God do the same and infinitely worse to a human soul forever, and not allow this soul to ever expire.

A former friend , now Christian funamentalist says because of what I have just stated to the forum and him my fate is that hell I dont believe in.

I retract my thoughts in horror and cannot rap my brain round from this unspeakable belief. If there is a devil it is more likely to do this kind of evil. not God, who will purge a soul from its wrong and reintroduce it into the cosmic family of sentient souls when it is ready.

Don/ Beserk. said some unredeemable souls are annihilated by God and this might be a

possibility.

Hell or no Hell "NO HELL IS MY ANSWER BUT DARK REGIONS YES!! "

Yours

alan

That sounds reasonable to me Alan.

While Buddhism teaches that we all do make it in the end (including Adolf), there are views taught in a variety of traditions which distinguish between the ego and the absolute self broadly as above that also provide for the possibility of annihilation.

The logic here is that it's possible to live a life where essentially nothing of any spiritual usefulness is learned during a lifetime. With the result that there's nothing that's passed over from the relative mind to the absolute self or to spirit during life, and the personality dies.

That's not to say that that is necessarily what happened to Hitler...

varje,

you said


Quote:

While Buddhism teaches that we all do make it in the end (including Adolf), there are views taught in a variety of traditions which distinguish between the ego and the absolute self broadly as above that also provide for the possibility of annihilation

I believe this and through you are realising much of my beliefs, unkown to me, are very much in accord with Buddhism. If God stopped trying to purge Hitler from  depravity picked up in this life, his whole creation would be a failure. One failure by a perfect being is a failure even inthe grand order of things.

If one reads my blasting of Adolf in the other thread you will see I never said he would burn in a hell forever. This is a disgusting idea, is it not.

Alan

:) The term 'the perennial philosophy' comes to mind Alan. We like to get hung up on the differences, but there's very many traditions (everything from ancient native beliefs to the more formal traditions - some extending back before recorded history) using different language but suggesting much the same view of exitence and the total reality.

The Theosophists reckoned that it just recycles and recasts itself at intervals to suit the needs and prejudices of the time...

Not trying to belittle or highjack....BUT....

How about some HUMOR:

South Park: Judgment Day
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLnSJo3Z-Iw

South Park: Hell on Earth
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrFs1Wl1iLw

South Park: The War of Heaven and Hell
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UEe4ZM8HLU

One of the best shows on TV.

Tee hee. South Park and the Simpson's have this slightly subversive way of showing us how we really behave.....

wrote on Jun 8^th, 2008 at 3:29pm:

Tee hee. South Park and the Simpson's have this slightly subversive way of showing us how we really behave.....

Yes! I wanted to show some Homer in Hell videos but, YouTube has deleted them.
Also the one where Bart learns about HELL in Sunday School and was saying the word HELL over and over while they were all driving in their station wagon.

Dood, I was wondering if your personality is the same as Homer?  :)

I know this off topic, but I love the Simpsons. pure genius if u ask me.

about hell or no hell, I don't think it's a black or white world, all shades of gray are there. I back up with the other Dude said, wait, we have two dudes now. lol.

BobMc. another forum member did an exploration intentionally to a hell. it was simply a man was a guard in a jail, who was guarding some prisoners, and they all thought they belonged there because of various deeds they'd done on Earth.

so hell is relative. now, my Cami, the teenage girl I retrieved would not know she was in a hell. and I would not know it either, as it appeared as an apt. complex, like a duplicate of this world, only it was the astral level closest to the Earth.
her deep depression, however is a hellish frame of mind to be in, to carry over into transition.
It was because of the circumstances of her transition. murder it would seem. the depression made it difficult for guides to reach her. I don't know how long in linear time she had been there, as to her, time does not pass like it does for us.

I would say the lower astrals, perhaps focus 23 we could call it, is the places where suffering takes place or continues, as usual, as a reflection of what happened in the physical, a mirror reflection of life continuing.

I just watched "Defending Your Life" last night. A comedy about dying and then going up before a court after death. Very funny and touching at the same time, I think that's how it actually happens. you guys should rent the movie.

what is peculiar to me, or used to be, was how certain ones can get stuck, not knowing they have transitioned and repeat their death scenes, as that was the last thing they remembered and they don't know what happened, until someone who can get thru approaches to lend a hand.

this hows how similar the first astral plane to the Earth is. like I said, a mirror reflection.

What amazes me is how people punish themselves here on this Earth, on purpose, then they just continue the same habits on the other side. again, until someone comes along who can get through to them they don't have to do that anymore.

love, alysia

R asked:  If people say that lower realms don't exist and that a person like Adolph Hitler goes to a higher realm right away, what is their basis other than opinion for stating this?
___

I didn't read the Hitler thread so I don't know if anything developed over there and I may be repeating somebody's else's conclusion but whatever, I've done that before!  :)

R, did somebody say Hitler goes to a higher realm right away? it is only opinions here, just as you said, sometimes we have mystical experiences, but still we cannot conclusively say that our mystical experiences are the absolute truth as it pertains to one and all. then we can misinterpret and quite often our own explorations and experiences.

I'm guessing, so surely that is just an opinion also, that Hitler had a bunch of thinking to do after he transitioned. I don't know about y'all, sitting around thinking is not my idea of heaven.
also, there's a little thing called repenting, that nobody talks about here, as it's attached to the religion of Christianity. However, repentence is a spiritual quality and we all get into it, whether we wish to or not, or even if we are atheists.

whenever a soul goes down this road, they are wishing they had done it differently.

Simply because something feels not quite right. whenever you are doing that, you are repenting.
but what really is happening either the "sinner" is justifying their self, or they are getting to the painful place where they say I won't do it again because I only hurt myself, and so they have to live with their own self, and they are shown eventually how they must first forgive their self, and then they can move unto the higher levels.

In Christianity they say to find the persons you have "ought" against. if you can get their forgiveness, then you can move to a higher level. If you can't, you still have to go ahead and forgive yourself, otherwise you get stuck there.

we simply don't know about the Hitlers, what occurred for them in their soul, although I have read something, where an explorer checked him out. something was reported that his aides were just as much responsible for genocide as he was.
something to that effect, that he didn't take complete responsibility.

I'm thinking he's in some BST. It's not the highest level. What I'm thinking is happening is all the ones who died, if they can forgive him, he can forgive himself easier and move on to another BST, of a slightly higher level.
I'm also thinking all the Jews were sacrificial lambs in other historical periods, but I don't understand why, except for some reason we always seem to think death is the answer to all of our troubles.

I disagree on that one. But we know, as a whole, what we are capable of, don't we?

So we need God in our lives as we can't do it alone. God is Love.

Greetings Guys,

You know dear people thinking about this hell question again, many many people will be very angry with the powers at be in the afterlife if they are then shown that after living a life of hell on earth, there is another hell waiting for them.

Maybe an everlasting hell like some appaling beliefs. On another forum Can we can sin fininite beings, transgress in an infinite way against an infinite being called God.?

Here is that discourse for your interest.

You know dear people thinking about this hell question again, many many people will be very angry at the powers at be in the afterlife if they are then shown that after living a life of hell on earth, there is another hell waiting for them.

Maybe an everlasting hell like some appalling beliefs. On another forum I guy there we can sin or transgress in an infinite way against an infinite being called God

“Me”

Starvingperson,

Hi,

During my NDE I experienced hell like realms and heavily realms, but not the Christian fundamentalist hell of eternal everlasting torment. If this were the truth then God is worse than Hitler.  

If one thinks deeply about the view most fundamental Christian believe about hell. It is completely horrific and unspeakable cruel. Think about a person because of a "finite transgression", being tormented by an "infinite being" in an "infinite way". Burning in a lake sulfur for an eternity day and night forever and ever in linear time. Exist in torment forever, God do this, not my lovely father God!!!!!!

A second in this place would be hideous beyond human thought. Think of taking a little child's hand and forcing it onto red-hot burning stove plate for just 10 minutes, would God do the same and infinitely worse to a human soul forever, and not allow this soul to ever expire.

A former friend , now Christian fundamentalist says because of what I have just stated to the forum and him, my  eternal destiny is the hell I don't believe in.

I retract my thoughts in horror and cannot rap my brain round from this unspeakable belief. If there is a devil it is more likely to do this kind of evil. not God, who will purge a soul from its wrong and reintroduce it into the cosmic family of sentient souls when it is ready.

That unredeemable souls might be annihilated is a possibility

Where you in hell?  you were not!!!

Hell or no Hell "NO HELL IS MY ANSWER BUT DARK REGIONS YES!! "

Yours

Alan

“Reply”
Quote from: Alan McDougall on Yesterday at 16:22:58
...If one thinks deeply about the view most fundamental Christian believe about hell. It is completely horrific and unspeakable cruel. Think about a person because of a "finite transgression", being tormented by an "infinite being" in an "infinite way"...

I think your premise is faulty. Consider the following points by Jonathan Edwards, and see if you can figure out why:

1) "A crime [transgression] is more or less heinous, according as we are under greater or less obligations to the contrary... because it is herein that the criminalness or faultiness of any thing consists, that it is contrary to what we are obliged or bound to, or what ought to be in us."

2) "The fault of disobeying another, is greater or less, as any one is under greater or less obligations to obey him. And therefore if there be any being that we are under infinite obligations to love, and honour, and obey, the contrary towards him must be infinitely faulty."

From these points Edwards draws the following conclusion:

"...sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous... Nothing is more agreeable to the common sense of mankind, than the sins committed against any one, must be proportionably heinous to the dignity of the being offended and abused."

Quotes taken from the essay, "The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners", by Jonathan Edwards

-Michael

mjm,
Quote
2) "The fault of disobeying another, is greater or less, as any one is under greater or less obligations to obey him. And therefore if there be any being that we are under infinite obligations to love, and honour, and obey, the contrary towards him must be infinitely faulty."

"ME"
I see this as somewhat of an ambiguous statement. But I simply cant except that tiny minute infinitesimal organism like us can worry an Infinite Being to the degree that it would punish infinitely for a finite transgression against ourselves

I am a amateur astronomer and when you consider us in relation to the grand order of things, we are very minute indeed. Reducing a colossal star to the size of a pumpkin and putting our supposedly huge sun next to it to compare, it would not smaller than one pixel.

Now our earth is a million times smaller than the sun and we would need an electron microscope to see it on this scale.

Now look a little further down the scale, on this microscope scale or world  that, cannot even be  seen through a electron microscope , is a biological organism calling itself "humanity" that on this scale would make a quantum particle would exceed the real size of our sun or maybe even a red giant star (a star is just a sun like ours)

Now this "entity" a thing it calls itself "humanity" thinks  it is very important, very important indeed
made in the image of the Infinite and, therefore, thinks this inconceivable Infinite Being must punish it for its tiny weenie transgression in an "INFINITE HORRIBLE WAY FOREVER "

Man!!!!!!! are we that important in the grand order of things by this comparison of "solar systems", and on the much grander order of the "billions of times grand order of galaxies" and the "greater grand order of the whole universe and the INFINITE GRAND ORDER EXISTENCE. Come on be real.

Of course if one insists God will give in and can punish infinitely, sort  it would be meaningless to him, sort of us keeping alive a roach burning forever just for fun

Our little world out in a remote corner within a galaxy of 400 billion stars which is a universe containing at least 400 billion other galaxies that important and are we that special?

We must get our true importance in its real true perspective, mankind has a long way to go!!
Alan

Reply

Quote from: Alan McDougall on Yesterday at 22:02:12
mjm,

I see this as somewhat of an ambiguous statement.

In what way?
Quote from: Alan McDougall on Yesterday at 22:02:12
But I simply cant except that tiny minute infinitesimal organism like us can worry an Infinite Being to the degree that it would punish infinitely for a finite transgression against ourselves...

But we're not talking about finite transgression, nor are we talking about transgression against ourselves. We're talking about transgression against an infinite being (an infinitely Holy being, actually). What you're trying to do here is quantify transgression in such a manner as to lessen it's offensiveness: 1) by calling it finite, and 2) through redirection (note that the offended party has changed above from that of an infinite being to that of ourselves).

Come on Alan.... what's up

Afterlife forum,

What do you think?

Alan

I posted above in the context of setting out the mechanics of transition as taught by some traditions, but if i move to offering a personal but very tentative view of this issue then I can't help feeling that we're by our views mostly still demanding or anticipating that some superior external deity or entity enforce 'justice'.

Which requires a God of a sort that's not what I seem to intuit.

My sense is that it's a simple as this: 'with your mind you make your world'. 'World' meaning your persona and the perceived realities you exist within. In the most literal sense. The other basic is that forgiveness of any resulting 'dream' is automatic - all that's required is that we come to 'see' reality, to wake up from the dream of the delusional belief systems we create that cause  suffering.

In physical life we get ourselves stuck in unreality or belief system tunnels. For example  - most of us cannot let go of the view that the world operates on the basis of dog eat dog, and rule of the fittest.

So in a futile attempt to minimise our suffering we spend whole lifetimes trying to get ahead at the expense of the other guy, to be top dog. We just can't find it in us to make the jump that says that this is actually the cause of all of the suffering in our life and in the world, that the true reality emerges with dropping  identification with self and living through love.

When our spirit or whatever prompts otherwise it's in most cases suppressed by ego as conflicting with  our belief systems before we even become consciously aware of it, this reinforced by reference to what the popular dog eat dog based societal conditioning most of us receive.

Individuals like Adolf seem to not just buy into 'rule of the fittest', but to also out of some power hunger or messianistic streak driven by ego to seek to attempt to force an extreme version of this view on the world - justified by, or more likely genuinely of the mistaken belief that it's the answer to its ills.

Add other personal qualities and a particular set of life circumstances where these views find traction, and given the similar view of those opposing you (our vision is better than yours, and we'll fight you to prove - God bless our just war) and next thing you have WW2. Or the horrors of Stalinism, or of any other despot led movement you care to mention. (or the crusading institutional religion seen at differing stages in our history too by the way)

Having headed down this road it becomes harder and harder for the individual to the drop this view, in that it requires him/her coming to terms with the horror of what they have done, and forgiving themselves for it. (to be fair we've not had too many female despots) To admit what's happened of course becomes an 'appalling vista' - one that's impossible for most to consciously entertain. There's also the little matter that if you don't win the battles you've by now set in motion that those opposing you will destroy you and your country.

The sustaining belief is of course that all this suffering is worth it, as it's leading to a golden age (or the thousand year Reich in Adolf's case) - just kill off another few thousand and we'll be there.

This of course is delusional, but they don't see that - or if they do probably not until there's no turning back.

The afterlife scenario is surely no different - there's absolutely no reason to think that mind operates differently there.

If we can accept this, then it seems highly likely that while a temporary separation of spirit from ego/conditioned beliefs provides the opportunity to see this belief system in perspective, drop it and forgive - that most holding the more extreme variants of dog eat dog beliefs will not be able to do so. They will instead as they did (and we all do) in life cling on to their beliefs.

Some traditions teach that those in this situation have such an aversion to 'seeing' the reality that the review stage flashes past and they are propelled on into the process of rebirth without their becoming consciously aware of it. This happening in the same way that ego maintains our beliefs by blocking our ability to perceive otherwise in normal life. Some may for whatever reason not drop their beliefs, but equally refuse to progress to rebirth.

The result of this must surely be that they go on (perhaps with other beings of similar persuasion)  to create further not necessarily physical realities based on their beliefs. Which inevitably must be hells, as these beliefs lead only to suffering. There's no doubt the potential for an infinite number of hells based on the various possible shades of belief.

They can of course (as can we in normal life) at any time drop this delusional belief system (forgive themselves, this is also to be forgiven) and revert to a higher reality in keeping with their new beliefs, or if they have managed to transcend beliefs entirely escape the whole cycle of life, death and rebirth. But as these beliefs become more intensive they become ever harder to drop, so this is not easy.

So what happened to Adolf? For me it depends. The intense suffering he too endured, and the possibility that he was the catalyst in a bigger plan for humanity could possibly have greatly reduced his karmic load, and led to his more easily seeing the reality of his behaviour. To his realising and accepting that all that's necessary is to do this to be forgiven.

He may on the other hand still not be able to see, or still not be able to accept that forgiveness comes automatically with seeing - with the result that he's possibly still grasping to his delusional beliefs. Or has dropped his beliefs, but is afraid to move on.

Perhaps if he's still holding on to his beliefs his karma this time is such that he's not having much influence on others, so the effect is confined only to himself and those he comes in direct contact with. Or perhaps out of some subliminal fear of rebirth he's caught in some non-physical reality - one he's busily making hellish for himself if he's not dropped his beliefs.

This is of course only a view, heaven knows what's truly going down.....

Varje,


You said

Quote:

The result of this must surely be that they go on (perhaps with other beings of similar persuasion)  to create further not necessarily physical realities based on their beliefs. Which inevitably must be hells, as these beliefs lead only to suffering. There's no doubt the potential for an infinite number of hells based on the various possible shades

If I read, you right, if these people insist on believing and embracing this awful appalling concept of an eternal place of infinite torment. God/ themselves whatever will create just such a place to satisfy their misplaced beliefs.es of belief!


As for me, there is just no such eternal place on my agenda.!!!

We are of course not as unimportant as I presented us to the other forum in that astronomy way.  

We are thought and light and that can expand outward  into Infinity and in real reality size of course is just an illusion just like time space etc etc

Einstein said the amazing thing about man, is not that he is unable to comprehend, but that he is able to comprehend so much.

I just put that view on the other forum to provoke dialogue and see if they come up with a logical answer like yours. They have not yet.

All of creation is based on logic so it is logical to me that an Infinite being will find it a waste of effort and time to painfully create a place of everlasting torment, most religions refer to as hell

Of course, I acknowledge my logic  might be misplaced and incorrect, as I have not yet reached the level of infallibility.

Guys I am what the internet fundies refer to as "fat-fingered" I so often strike the wrong letter on my key board unnoticed to me and have to go back and modify my mistakes I am no typist!!

Alan

What I was trying to say Alan is that whether it's here or in the afterlife the chances are that we'll find ourselves in a hell just as long (and no longer) than we buy into delusional beliefs that lead to behaviours that create that reality and that much suffering.

'Hell' is a pretty relative term.

Even 'normal' lives can still be pretty hellish as most of us have experienced.

The more suffering, the worse the hell.

The longer we cling to delusional beliefs, the longer the hell will persist.

We all seem to slowly shed delusional (or unhappiness inducing) beliefs that don't serve us with the years, but Buddhism would argue that it takes many many lifetimes but that we eventually drop the lot.

But it presumably doesn't go on eternally  - at least not unless there's some so determinedly boneheaded that they will never awaken - suffering tends to bring us to our senses...

PS In this way of looking at it all hells or for that matter all perceived realities are as you know mind made. This means that as in the case of e.g. the Monroe focus levels they are not objectively existing physical or even semi physical locations. More like mind made states of being held in existence as long as mind (at whatever level) chooses.

Just like quantum particles they presumably pop into existence with intention, and drop back to pure potential or void once 'nobody is looking'.

just trying to make a rough summation so far; it appears to me, from viewing my retrievals mostly, that spiritual growth is equivalent to an open mind, or thinking outside the box of our collective rumifying.
(is that a word?)

Everytime I found someone to retrieve, I had to do my Jesus thing. I had to forgive them their errors, or sins, which produced a PUL generation, not from me, my part was just to get their attention, somebody was there, hey, I'm here. what's up? sort of like that, to say, you're in a boxed in area, come with me, if you don't like it, you can come back here as your free will is still yours. The act of understanding a stuck person is to accept them where they are right now, which is a place of being enclosed within their own view, maybe their confused, maybe someone killed them, maybe they did suicide, maybe their boat turned over on them and they were not quite prepared to meet their maker, had not conjectured there was a place to belong in the afterlife for them. ::)
but everybody has a place to go, everybody belongs somewhere where they continue to evolve and learn who they are.

PUL is like declaring to those, you are a living being, you are in the universe, no matter where your head is, you have a right to be here. then this PUL thing, which is belonging to us all, and what I call God because it is good, then this PUL EXPANDS the mind, as well expands the senses so that they can be aware the helper is there, then the others can move this person to a better place to grow at.
usually with their own group or disc, as the disc members know what to say and do for the person.
the retriever just breaks through, the jail that certain beliefs and feelings associated with it, can get the human locked down, here or there.

there comes a time in our spiritual development when we need each other, and so we step up our growth pattern by asking to be used for the highest good to occur.
there's a certain period, it used to called to pray without ceasing. Nobody likes to pray anymore, so we can also call it to seek without stopping, the truth of who and what we are and what are our intentions on this planet?

If you find yourself always asking to be of service to life, is when things start rolling quicker for you.
what I do when I'm confused is so simple..but it works.

if I'm confused about anything I ask to be able to see it differently. (ACIM)

invaribably, it works, to see it differently is to walk in another's shoes. just one mile. then that's compassion and it changes the world.
Ian, God is All Of Us acting as one, for the best interests of all, beyond the ego which thinks it can do something.  Yet God is more than all of us. we don't know anything about God. when we admit this, then we have an open mind which drinks from the waters of life everlasting, our divine heritage.

Dead Preacher just popped up again. what a rascal! love to you all, keep your eye on the sparrow.

note later: yes thanks R, good thread so far. come back soon.

Ian: said: Just like quantum particles they presumably pop into existence with intention, and drop back to pure potential or void once 'nobody is looking'.
_____

this is a cool description of physics Ian. it says more about who we are than people can grasp.

I wish Dave was here again. I hope he's all right. He knows a lot about physics. Just to enhance from my perspective what you just said, let me try. it might be fun.

ok. hmm. how to say...do u remember or is this same experiment scientists did to split a molecule in half, or gee whiz, was it a proton?
anyway, whatever it was, we are made of this stuff within our cells which is people examining life force in cells.

Dave would probably say aggregate which aggravates me!  ;D as I don't really know some of the words he uses.

moving right along, Einstein wanna be here....they took this miniscule thing only can be seen with a microscope and divided it. hard to do, as it kept wiggling I imagine.

::)  now there was one thing, and now it was two. they isolated each part to observe what was the reaction of each part to being split.

they found by observing one part, which direction it moved depended on WHO was observing it.
neither part reacted the same way, so the mind of the observer acted upon the molecule, according to the expectation of the individual?
anyway they got all excited that this thing responded to a human, but never in precisely the same way that the previous observer had observed.

then to top it off, the two halves "sensed" what each half was reacting to and moved according to how it's former "partner" had moved.

so if I can relate this, to the human mind, how we react to each other automatically sometimes without thinking about it, as we share this mirror capacity as human nature. it goes along with the mental collective areas we all share, as we are all so busy becoming our own person, yet we could all just be like one big cloud of humanity, and when we get back to our original starting place, we see and find our oneness, and how we broke apart, so to become more of ourselves.

ok, enough thinking! love, alysia

Thank you for the responses everybody. I'm really swamped at work now, and will have to reply later.

The understanding I have based on various experiences and various messages I received, for the most part spirits move on to a level that matches how much they are able to open up to love. Sometimes beliefs can intefere with such an opening.

One time this was revealed to me. Some of it isn't different than what people have heard/read before, some of it might be new.

1. Things are arranged in the spirit World so that for the most part a spirit will go to the place that matches its overall state of mind and energetic.

2. Once there, a spirit isn't able to leave until it seeks to progress to a higher level.

3. Sometimes such spirits will make an energetic connection to a person in the physical World when a person plays around with ouija boards, black magic etc.

4. These spirits need energy just as any spirit needs energy. Higher levels of existence send them energy that has a rejuvenating and cleansing effect according to what they can handle.  This can take place without a spirit realizing that the energy it receives has such an effect. This cleansing process can happen quite quickly.

5. Because a spirit no longer occupies a body, it no longer has direct contact with attributes such as sex drive, food drive, self defense instinct, hormones such as tetosterone which can cause a person to be aggresive,  the peptides which cause negative emotions to be created, and the limitations that a nervous system and body impose. Therefore, it'll be a matter of a spirit's habitual way of being and belief systems working against the effects of the cleansing energy that is fed to them, without the bodily influences we experience while physical being a factor.

6. Once a spirit makes it to such a realm, if it doesn't already know, it doesn't take long for it to realize that it no longer occupies a physical body and what it now experiences is based upon the state of mind it developed while physical. How it chooses to move on can vary.

7. Spirits find that they don't have the power that they had while physical. They can no longer murder, abuse,  and rape others. Dictators can't lead. They can't steal from others because what could they steal that another spirit couldn't create for itself? This will sound different than what Bruce wrote, but because thoughts aren't hidden as they are while physical, it isn't easy for spirits to con each other. Drug pushers can't push drugs.  Alcoholics can't drink alchohol and drug addicts can't take drugs. Some people might refute this later point. If so, would they claim that the spirits of people who were addicts and alcoholics sometimes energetically attach to addicts and alcoholics who are physical? Why would spirits do such a thing if they can consume drugs and alcohol while in the astral? I believe it is overestimated when people describe body based activities that take place within astral realms.  I've found that my body based activities during dreams and OBEs are never as physical as physical body experiences.  On the rare occasions I've felt physical sensations during dreams and OBEs, the physical body I have was used for such sensations.

8. Helpers try to help spirits who abide in lower realms. Spirits from a higher level look out for spirits in lower realms and make certain that other spirits don't impose upon their free will. I know this sounds different than what other people say, but I trust it because it has been shown to me during several experiences.  For example, one time me and a spirit helper moved through a lower realm, and we were making certain that some spirits weren't being messed with by other spirits.  

I won't claim that what I've found is absolute truth.  I've noticed that sincere and honest people don't always come up with the same answers.  I do believe that what I have found makes sense, because it shows that things are set up so that spirits who make mistakes while physical are able to progress quickly.

(A. Young / M. Young / B. Scott)

Livin' easy :D
Lovin' free :-*
Season ticket on a one way ride :o
Askin' nothin' :P
Leave me be :-/
Takin' everythin' in my stride  :'(
Don't need reason  >:(
Don't need rhyme  ;)
Ain't nothin' that I'd rather do  8-)
Goin' down  :D
Party time  :P
My friends are gonna be there too  8-)
I'm on the highway to hell  :-[
On the highway to hell  :-?
Highway to hell  ;D
I'm on the highway to hell  ;)

No stop signs
Speed limit
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Like a wheel
Gonna spin it
Nobody's gonna mess me around
Hey satan
Payin' my dues
Playin' in a rockin' band
Hey mumma
Look at me
I'm on the way to the promised land
I'm on the highway to hell
Highway to hell
I'm on the highway to hell
Highway to hell
Don't stop me  8-)

I'm on the highway to hell  >:(
On the highway to hell
Highway to hell
I'm on the highway to hell
(highway to hell) I'm on the highway to hell
(highway to hell) highway to hell
(highway to hell) highway to hell
(highway to hell)
And I'm goin' down
All the way
I'm on the highway to hell

Love jabbering about this stuff, thanks for the lead R.   especially like your reference to PUL gradations referring to levels as I see PUL as an expansive energy permeating all mental constructs.

My opinion is there is the continuation of a virtual reality of eat and drink, and a simulation of sexuality also on the belief system territories; "if desired."

why would we want a house, or a car, or a horse, or to eat? because this what we are used to, this is all we know until we know something else. all my sister knew was horses. she ended up taking care of abused horses, nurturing life in that way.
I believe you are a guardian spirit out there from your descriptions. I think everyone is a certain type of retriever.  helpfulness is a type of PUL function and speeds up the shift in consciousness.

 I'm currently studying the 7 bodies of man on up to the monad. some of these bodies are expendable or sluffed off as we make our way back to source.

It may be distasteful to read about attachments but these things happen because we are energetic beings which like attracts like. for instance, misery loves company. generate enough misery and one will attract certain same type attachments in agreement with you which reinforce negative thoughts.

Kyo could help us on the attachments scene; he's an expert.

this was amazing, in chat the other day this kid asked me if when he gets on the other side could he create a human? I'd say well, you can create a thought form and imbue it with life! I didn't know what to say at the time. Virtual reality is the new thing on the market right now.

about addictions. my husband died of alcoholism and I ventured to his place in obe afterwards.
I was sure he would be clean. I saw him in a house that he helped create.   he came out a room and set what looked like a glass of liquor down on the coffee table.

I immediately dismissed he had done that, until recently, because here or there we have this capacity to see only what we want to see. I didn't want to think he still had this habit,  I thought surely he'd realize he no longer needed it? many folks are under the assumption that some kind of instant enlightenment occurs when you die. he was still my sweetie, but not enlightened, but he was learning something, thats what counts.

I had asked for a glimpse of his future, there were two guides/friends who entered the room to explain how they wanted him to enter a project of soul growth, that it would be good for him, and bring him more into an extroverted person rather than introvert, he was basically antisocial.  it sounded really good and I left enthused about his future. so I'm thinking he may have dropped the habit by now. I know for sure all of us continue to evolve and become and everything is familiar once we return. I never knew how those 2 guides found Mike. they just showed up and I got the hint they had been working him as he was the wary type. I think guides are assigned to certain people, they would be resonating in similar vibes, so that he would get on with them, so to speak.

regarding the sense of touch:
while retrieving Cami, I touched her leg and it was solid flesh. once you touch flesh out there, you cannot communicate to another that you did this thing. its personal, but u can ask to have the same type of experience, along the lines of "how can I bridge the gap between what is solid reality here, and what seems real out there, but I'm not really sure? your wish is granted according what you ask for.

as regards PUL, that tends to make it more real for sure, without PUL nothing gets done to my satisfaction, I never explore unless I can do something that seems absolutely necessary for my well being or another's both at the same time. so then it seems involuntary, out of my hands. knowledge comes later sometimes, what happened, and why.

but our physical senses are limited. I think doing explorations is what acts to extend our five senses into these areas, and then by sharing what we are now. it's exciting to be a pioneer in this era, writing about these explorations and reading other's accounts for similarities. TMI calls it nonphysical senses, but I like to think of it as extensions of the 5 senses we already possess.


thanks again for the great lead in R. I see you got a full summer coming up..way to go!!! :)

Alysia:

I'm not 100% certain about whether spirits can do things like drink liguids. I figure the spirit World has it figured out regardless of what I suppose. ;)

Regarding attached spirits, I asked Kathy from this forum about this one time since she's been seeing auras for years, and see said that she has never seen a spirit attached to a person.  She said that sometimes a person believes in something so much, they'll bring an aspect to life that can appear as an attached spirit.  

Regarding what other people have to say about this matter, perhaps spirit attachment happens occasionally but not as near as much as some people believe.  I trust Kathy's discrimination on this. In fact, I was thinking about asking her about this for a couple of weeks, had a dream one night which suggested she would be a good source of information, I asked her, and she provided the answer she provided.

I hope Kathy doesn't mind me sharing this since we discussed it on a PM.  I figure it isn't personal in nature.

Recoverer,

You said


Quote:

5. Because a spirit no longer occupies a body, it no longer has direct contact with attributes such as sex drive, food drive, self defense instinct, hormones such as tetosterone which can cause a person to be aggresive,  the peptides which cause negative emotions to be created, and the limitations that a nervous system and body impose. Therefore, it'll be a matter of a spirit's habitual way of being and belief systems working against the effects of the cleansing energy that is fed to them, without the bodily influences we experience while physical being a factor

This is not what I exprienced during my NDE every earthly pleasure is still there but experienced in a different way my the ethereal body Our physical body just like the aferlife body is just energy vibration. The ethereal body vibrates on a much higher level and pleasure is therefore much more intence. Of course energy is obtained diect from source.

This is an excerpt from said nde

I also enquired as to  whether we similar experienced pleasures exist in the spiritual realm as we do with our mortal bodies while on earth such as, good food, mortal love touch, taste, smell, sight, sex, would this all be lost when we took on ethereal or spiritual bodies.. What about our friends, family, lovers, soul mates? Travel, homes etc, etc, etc what about boundaries of conduct was anything forbidden if sin was abolished? As there would no longer be evil or sin in heaven, everything would be permissible and we would be able to experience ecstasy, bliss and sublime joy as we mingle and merge completely with any one we wish. Everything there is much much more intense, sustained and beautiful complete and wonderful than anything we could remotely liken to on the earthly plane.

It is indeed very very exiting! Totally beyond the imagination of any mortal There a total mystical union with the divine will become the norm and unions between spirits Perhaps the greatest intense ecstasy known to humanity was sex and something like this continues in the next life, but is much more glorious, intense euphoria, sublime and sustained for as long a moment as the parties desired. We would be free to please each other and ourselves by totally giving of our souls, spirits and minds in a merging of such unimaginable pleasure that our present minds and bodies could not comprehend. However the union with the Divine is something so wonderful, unimaginable beautiful, sublimely, blessed, happy, glorious that no words yet formed in any earthly language could come remotely near describing this eternal bliss.

Even if the above was wrong and your idea right, man!!I will miss my wifes cooking

Alan

Alan:

I've read of accounts of where people eat food in the astral and it tastes even more delicious astrally than physically. Of course not more delicious than your wife's cooking.

I'd be surprised if things are set up so drug addicts take drugs and alcoholics drink alcohol, but I'm not certain.

I don't figure food would go through the digestive process it goes through here in the physical.

Righ now I eat really healty and don't eat meat. Perhaps in the astral I could eat all the chocolate chip cookies and cheeseburgers I want, without any animals being harmed or without energetic and health issues being a problem.

On the other hand, perhaps at higher levels eating food is a body associated activity than one has seperated one's self from.

Recoverer

you quoted


Quote:

I've read of accounts of where people eat food in the astral and it tastes even more delicious astrally than physically. Of course not more delicious than your wife's cooking. I'd be surprised if things are set up so drug addicts take drugs and alcoholics drink alcohol, but I'm not certain. I don't figure food would go through the digestive process it goes through here in the physical. Righ now I eat really healty and don't eat meat. Perhaps in the astral I could eat all the chocolate chip cookies and cheeseburgers I want, without any animals being harmed or without energetic and health issues being a problem. On the other hand, perhaps at higher levels eating food is a body associated activity than one has seperated one's self from

Drug addicts cravings are never satified just like our lower plane one must exist heathely over there

Of course what we experience in the "first ethereal realm" is just an illusion of physical earthly pleasure to sort of ease us into this new reality The spititual body as you said does not have a need such as hunger ,

When we move to higher level we can enter a different kind of bliss totally beyond our present comprehension

I agree R, too much talk about attachments and pretty soon they start showing up everywhere.

Robert Bruce on Astral Pulse is a very spiritual person to my opinion and has spent most of his life in the focus of removing attachments. although it's not my focus area, it does happen, and can be seen as no more than an entity clinging unto a person whom it thinks owes it something and is trying to get what it thinks it has coming.

that could go on for years untill the person understands what's wrong and forks over the thing that spirit wants...sometimes it's as easy as forgiveness...I don't think there's a need to grow fearful over the word attachments, not when you see how we are all connected, and that the person with attachments has accepted these, for whatever reason, to work something out..to grow out of it.

I don't think attachments are any worse than say, a persistent car salesman, or being bugged on the phone by these guys. and the movie Exorist was all out of proportion to possession, they wanted to make some bucks, that's all. it's very rare I'd say a person's head spins around. lol.

I think Mike had simulated his drink in the other level, therefore it was real to him. I don't think I would be shown this for no reason. however, when he saw me, he sat the drink down. I think that was telling me that he would set his drink down and do some progression, for some reason I had something to do with that progression.

the church I attended briefly when they heard I heard voices on occasion they sent me to be exorcised, only I didn't know I was being set up.
so I know what you mean, that the idea of attachments according to the old church is more prevalent than it should be.
It's fear for my salvation which caused them to do this to me. I prevailed, grace was attendant, if I was speaking in their language. yet these two worlds are coming together and we will see entities attracted to those whom they've known before as we learn to talk to those on the other side more often with less fear and with more love.

attachments will no longer be quite the bugaboo it was before. it seems everything we have fear around, we give power to that thing we fear by making it real.
if you don't have fear, there is just love.