hilarion says hitler is in heaven,because God used him for the return of the jews to there home land.if it were not for hitler the jews would still not have a homeland.only there bodies died,there spirits still lived.

Hi george Who is hilarion and i think hes wrong because i dont think that God would have wanted hitler to do it the way he did,because when God showed moses how to bring the isrealites out of slavery in egypt,he didnt get someone like hitler to do it ,he just warned the pharoh to let his people go,but the egyptians were not tortured and massaccared,and the deaths of the egyptian first borns was the fault of the pharoh because he was shown by God that he was there and the egyptian pharoh just ignored the signs thats why this halirion has got it wrong because it was mass murder and torture towards the jewish people and our loving God would not have used hitler in this way ,hitler was evil and God had nothing to do with what hitler did.

Love and God bless     love juditha

George,


you quoted

Quote:

hilarion says hitler is in heaven,because God used him for the return of the jews to there home land.if it were not for hitler the jews would still not have a homeland.only there bodies died,there spirits still lived

George don’t believe this nonsense, we must all account to God for our actions in this life. Halarion says Hitler God says "HITLER IS NOT IN HEAVEN". This depraved mind cannot be allowed to join the family of man, until it is purged from its evil.

Also if we stretch our credulity to the limit and believe this misinformed person. God is the murderer BY PROXY for given Hitler this disgusting task of  murdering millions innocent people in the most beast base way.. Abject nonsense man!!!!, just unimaginable abject nonsense.

Goerge I am not getting at you I am getting at Halarion whoever it is!!!

Alan

Heaven is a state of mind.  Focus 27 and the higher planes contain people who have pursued the path of love; love of God, and love of one's fellow man.  One can not pretend to have this type of love, as in spirit we are transparent and lose our earthly masks of civility.

There certainly may be a divine plan or agenda, but this is independent of an individual's merit of being in Heaven or not.  If Hitler had a consciousness which pursued love of God, and love of one's fellow man, he would find himself with those of a like mind.  By perpetuating war, destruction and death, he doubtless created extremely negative karma, despite the state of Israel being created in response.  

Imagine the life review of a man like that; imagine the agony of his victims who died in fear and misery.  How would a soul be in harmony when faced with such a life review?

Unfortunately, Hilarion, like so many channeled entities proposes that he knows things and is an an authority on these matters.  Rubbish.  Oh ye of little faith! Do not follow blindly the musings of an alleged channeled spirit.  Oh yeah, and you can get your own personal Hilarion reading for a fee - think about that one.  Search for the truth yourself; the answer, in a case like this will be clear to you.

None of my thoughts should be taken to mean that I don't believe in spiritual redemption.  It is simply that the notion of attaining heaven after committing vile, heinous acts simply because some secondary event takes place (the founding of Israel), is a ridiculous proposition.


Matthew

We had a very long discussion on this topic before.

My personal view is that he taught mankind some very profound lessons, that it was meant to and needed to happen. He was the catalyst by which a whole series of people to lived out and discovered the error of their dodgy beliefs.

There's no doubt plenty about the personality that was negative, and has probably now been shed. (as seems likely will happen in all our cases) But it seems unlikely that anybody that has watched the film 'Downfall' could not but feel a huge measure of compassion for him, and for the people caught up in that dream too - for where it brought them.

But I suspect that having done this he's probably back on track....

It's interesting to me how people view Hitler, in particular, as if he was here in the room doing terrible things at this instant. People who do such terrible things can be considered mentally ill.

If a person can't be healed of their mental illness in the afterlife, what good is an afterlife? It's no better than dreaming and having a nightmare you can't stop.

I have felt the light, in dreams, and in waking states. It has healing properties which eliminate any kind of sorrow, anger, shame, etc. etc.

It is said that "God" allows the sun to shine on the good and bad alike, and it is not my place or anyone else's to say who stands there in the light of God. So, from my perspective, Hitler's done suffering for his crimes.

If I hold him down, I hold myself down. Hell really is a state of mind, and I personally feel that every human being deserves to step into the light, see how it feels, and decide for themselves if they can live in it.

Perhaps one aspect of self may choose to stay where it is, in the shadow, for as long as it likes. So, rather than lose the whole self, let go of the part which "offends" you. Is it not possible for a human being to do that? What good is an afterlife if you can't let go?

Matthew,said


Quote:

None of my thoughts should be taken to mean that I don't believe in spiritual redemption.  It is simply that the notion of attaining heaven after committing vile, heinous acts simply because some secondary event takes place (the founding of Israel), is a ridiculous proposition.

Matthew


You summarized this well it is ridiculous that "God" would allow a depraved base monstrous beast like Hitler to murder innocent people in the most hideous manner just to re-establish the state of Israel.

As I previously said in an earlier post, if Hitler is not accountable for his unimaginable heinous monstrous crimes that even the basest of beasts would not do , but was just doing Gods will, “GOD HIMSELF” “I REPEAT "THEN GOD IS THE MURDERER” AND GOD IS EVIL"

I also posted about the terrible life review Hitler is going through. It seems to me some people would like the creator to mildly admonish this monster sort oh!! “Naughty naught little toddler" oh come let daddy light liitle tap on the hand naughty boy" Oh!!!  dear!! Child” "now dear boy" "I love you dearly sweet little man" it was not very nice what one did my child"

"But you did what daddy asked you to do and killed off all those unnecessary Jews"  "let daddy teach one a better way next time I send you to eliminate innocent people in your next incarnation"

They say the poor soul was mentally ill, what nonsense is this, I know a great deal about mentally challenged people and they are the gentlest most helpless people one can meet. Matthew would know this. Hitler was  calculating intellectual genius, not mad but bad, bad, bad!!!!

Hitler was a sane calculation intelligent person who at one time directed the whole German nation and army on its first blitzkrieg defeat of Europe and nearly all of Russia on his own, total command of the whole war effort. How could a psychotic do this I ask? HE has no excuse for his unimaginable depraved reprobate acts and will account for then all maybe as one said in his life review.

He can’t join the higher soul dimensions, there and merge with the minds of pure light. The means of communication is by telepathy and all minds are open to all others. No secrets there, no rules . Imagine having to share the thought of a mind like this and that of his co-hoots. Eternity would be polluted just as earth has been by this monster.

I get really angry when I here this beast is just a perfect soul that just needs some gentle persuasion, come on  how would one like him and his Nazi SS Politrsi  to be your next door neighbor, especially if one were an innocent Jew, like my dear mother Elisabeth Sideraski

Alan

Hi dear Blink and Vajra,

As I said, I have nothing against the idea of spiritual redemption.  What I have trouble accepting is the notion that a person may enter a heavenly plane not because they have found the virtues of love, but because they have fulfilled an earth related plan (the founding of the state of Israel).  Once dead, once there is a life review, we are faced with the consequences of the actions of our earthly life.  Hitler may have had some noble goals, but his blood lust, his direct responsibility for war, death and genocide would weigh heavily on his soul.  If he wished to atone, I have no doubt that a process would be forthcoming.  I simply doubt that it would be quick and easy, with the karmic load he was carrying.

Blink, you are a loving soul.  You have forgiveness within you, so you say from your perspective it would be ok if Hitler were in heaven.  Hitler, however would have to achieve a level of PUL, kindess, compassion, love of God and of one's fellow man.  He also would very likely feel the karmic debt of the destruction of so many millions and want to atone for that prior to ascending to a higher spiritual plane.  The chance that he had a "get out of purgatory free" card as part of a divine plan is highly unlikely.  In reports of the deaths of people of ill intent, we hear from NDEs and other explorations, that some initially find themselves in complete darkness on passing over.  With the rule of like attracts like in the afterlife, I shudder to think of where ol' Adolph ended up upo passing, and what was done to him.  But I digress.  Could he atone?  Yes.  It just seems unlikely it would happen quickly - his spirit would feel the heavy weight of his earthly actions and deeds, and be so leaden, it would not make it to the clouds right away.  

The afterlife process should be no different for famous or infamous people.  

Matthew

Quote:

It's interesting to me how people view Hitler, in particular, as if he was here in the room doing terrible things at this instant. People who do such terrible things can be considered mentally ill.

Very good point Blink. (Yer Smart)
Also isn't it 'The Thought That Counts...?'

Who here has not thought of hurting someone else?
I know I have on occasion wished I had a couple of SideWinder Missiles strap to my car in rush hour traffic... :D

Have not all of us at some point wished harm on someone?
What is the 'Degree of Sin' in THAT respect?
I am not justifying anything Hitler has done but, people act if he thought up and did EVERYthing.
He did have quite a large following of people that thought up some of the nastiest crap to do to people that I have ever seen.

Still, from what I have learned it is the 'thought' and not just our actions that counts.
Thought has POWER so if that is correct then when we think up something horrible toward someone else then we are no different then a Hitler.

Other words...Who are WE to judge?

Other words...Who are WE to judge?

That pretty much sums it up for me.  One little tiny match, given the proper circumstances, could burn down the entire world.  I think we all have our weakness and that may tell us about a part of ourselves we don't want to face.
When I see red faced ministers screaming their egotistical slop or Bill O' reilly doing his moralizing or those purple haired floozies on TBN or anyone getting uppity or judgmental, I can turn into something that seems very 'not me' for a few minutes.
So I really have some work to do on myself in this judgmental area.

Absolutely, each one of us has areas of thought and experience which are emotionally charged for us.

For example, my use of the word "mentally ill" could be considered questionable to some people, who do not wish to have their own status as "mentally challenged" compared to someone whom they consider an evil genius.

These "triggers" are the loaded guns each of us carry in our imaginations. When we feed our own "need" for justice with the emotions of anger we fall from grace. We make mistakes. We fan the flames.

None of us, as humans, are immune to this folly. But we can certainly attempt to recognize it. And we can attempt to validate our emotions without acting on them and making assumptions. Once the anger has gone, what is left?

Sadness. Once the sadness is gone, what is left?

A new beginning.

Well I channeled Abe Lincoln, and he told me that you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.   Which group do you want to belong to?

MURDERING and TORTURING numerous Jewish people as Adolph Hitler did is hardly the same thing as sending them back to Israel. Adolph Hitler was a hateful seperatist, not a homeland reuniter.

P.S. I don't buy Walsch's scam either.

http://hilarion.com/jonchan.html

quote from Jon C. Fox, regarding channeling in general, and the channeling he does of the entity he calls "Hilarion":

"I am often asked how does one identify a "good" channeling, or how do we know which channels or spirit entities to trust. I think it is wise to apply the criteria Hilarion suggested when I first began, "By their fruits you shall know them." I recommend that people work with information in their own way, looking especially for any resonance in their hearts, and seeing if the concepts and ideas hold up over time. I put no credence on the personality of the channel or the name of the being channeled or the tone of voice or accent used. Nor do I find it important how the person channels (deep trance, conscious channeling, intuitive impressions). Nor do I look at how they came to do channeling in the first place. Rather, I ask if the experience was helpful to me, broadened my understanding, expanded my knowledge, opened up something new in me, or improved my relationships."

If one truly chooses to live according to love one will find that one doesn't need to throw one's discrimination away.

When we make excuses for sources such as Hillarion we don't do anybody a favor including Jon Fox. The only thing we do is help Jon Fox get on with his con game.  Sometimes it seems as if it is okay to let these con artists slide, but when they say ridiculous things like Jon Fox Hillarion did about Hitler and God's supposed plan, it becomes time for people who "WON'T" buy into such nonsense to speak up.

The same goes for Walsh and his Conversations with whoever Con. I can't believe how quickly people are willing to buy into Walsh's and Fox's rationalizations for Adolph Hitler's self centered and hateful behavior.

Certainly if God and other beings of light were going to come up with a way to better this World, THEY WOULD COME UP WITH A MUCH BETTER WAY THAN THE NONSENSE WALSCH AND JOHN FOX HAVE SHARED!

It's not about being judgmental towards Adolph Hitler, it's about seeing things as they actually are.

P.S. Sometimes people put together a collection of their favorite gurus and such similar to how people collect baseball cards and other collectables.

Are you angry with God, for visiting you this way? Through human beings who see things differently than you do?

I have had to ask myself that question. But, no, I choose not to be angry, not today. Not now. It is always my choice, to believe, not to believe, to agree, to disagree, to be angry, to be at peace.

Much love to each of you, and may you, each and all, find the happiness you seek.

love, blink

Blink,

You said



Quote:

For example, my use of the word "mentally ill" could be considered questionable to some people, who do not wish to have their own status as "mentally challenged" compared to someone whom they consider an evil genius

Are you referring to me "mentally challenged"?

IF HITLER IS IN HEAVEN, HEAVEN IS "HELL"

aLAN

Blink:

When you write things such as the below, please consider the possibility that people with a differing viewpoint are able to understand your viewpoint.  Doc, for example, demonstrated that he does see your viewpoint. I'm all for forgiveness. I have no desire to punish anybody. I wouldn't be able to help out with retrievel work in lower realms if I was into punishing spirits.

However, when sources such as Walsh and Jon Fox Hillarion say that Adolph Hitler's actions were a part of God's divine plan, they go "way" too far. It is an insult to God, to the millions of people who were harmed by Adolph Hitler's actions, and to the intelligence of the people these sources try to con.

Until a person is willing to live the life of every person Adolph Hitler harmed, it isn't right for such a person to say their hardship meant nothing because of the rationalizations of Jon Fox Hillarion and Walsh.



wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 1:33pm:

Are you angry with God, for visiting you this way? Through human beings who see things differently than you do? I have had to ask myself that question. But, no, I choose not to be angry, not today. Not now. It is always my choice, to believe, not to believe, to agree, to disagree, to be angry, to be at peace. Much love to each of you, and may you, each and all, find the happiness you seek. love, blink

I know that you understand my viewpoint, R, and I appreciate Doc's comments. I respect that you have yours as well. Best wishes to you, today and always. We are friends here.

love, blink

Recoverer,

You said


Quote:

However, when sources such as Walsh and Jon Fox Hillarion say that Adolph Hitler's actions were a part of God's divine plan, they go "way" too far. It is an insult to God, to the millions of people who were harmed by Adolph Hitler's actions, and to the intelligence of the people these sources try to con.

Walsch and his coverts to this nonsense are one of two things, they are delusional or they are lying through their beards

If Blinks mother, father, siblings, husband and children were snatched from her hands and were murdered in front of her terrfiied eyes by this monster in human form. She would not be so loving and forgiving. We are able to accept the concept of an alien human hybrid , why not a monster clothed in human skin?


It is easy to become distant from this awful blot and reality on the history of humanity, when one is separated by 64 years and has not experienced murders like I have in South Africa, where a common form punishment by the masses is what they call “necklessing" They do this by soaking the victim in gasoline put an old car tire around the neck of the terrified neck and watch with glee as the person screams and burns to death in front of them It is great fun to them. Depravity is real ask the still surviving American Soldiers who were starved and beaten to death in the long march

It is easy to say all these beautiful loving forgivable, things when it does not effect your life

Alan

With respect to you, Alan, I have suffered losses that you do not know about. And I have been required by my own desire for peace to forgive more than one individual who has harmed me personally in ways which I will not describe on this forum.

However, I hear the anguish in your voice over the pain of others, and I have no intention of diminishing your sensitivity to it.

Again, I will leave this discussion to you, as I feel that I am diverting attention from what you might like to discuss among yourselves, and which you have every right to do.

If someone said you were "mentally challenged" would you consider it an insult, Alan? I could say the same of myself. Again, none of this is personally directed at you. My statement is an acknowledgement of your own suggestion, that many "mentally challenged" people are very gentle, harmless and loving. You are right about that.

My point is, we misunderstand each other when we choose to paint the picture in black and white.

So, how do we heal? We just let it go. We focus on peace. We focus on healing. That doesn't mean we refuse to listen to our hearts. It just means that we focus on healing and mending that which is broken.

I've said entirely enough today.




Alan McDougall wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 1:45pm:

Blink, You said Quote: For example, my use of the word "mentally ill" could be considered questionable to some people, who do not wish to have their own status as "mentally challenged" compared to someone whom they consider an evil genius Are you referring to me "mentally challenged"? IF HITLER IS IN HEAVEN, HEAVEN IS "HELL" aLAN

Alan.Was it not said that Jesus said,you must forgive anyone who hurts.and Jesus said love and forgiveness is all he wants from.The ways of God are not like the ways of men.Blink you are the only person who is forgiving on this topic.just goes to say how forgiving the rest are.

George:

You speak about being forgiving, and then you cast judgment on people who present a viewpoint that is "partly" different than Blinks. If you would take the time to read some of the posters posts more closely, you would see that people aren't being judgmental, they are just stating perspectives that go beyond Jon Smith Hillarion's perspectives. The harshness of reality doesn't go away by pretending that it isn't here.

Why did you make the decision to make a thread publically, if you aren't willing to hear different perspectives? Perhaps in the future you should itemize what kind of answers you consider appropriate.

Here's another question.  Why is it okay for different sources to try to con people, but it isn't okay for people to speak up when they do so?






george stone wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 4:07pm:

Alan.Was it not said that Jesus said,you must forgive anyone who hurts.and Jesus said love and forgiveness is all he wants from.The ways of God are not like the ways of men.Blink you are the only person who is forgiving on this topic.just goes to say how forgiving the rest are.

Yes, forgiveness is key.. I forgave the 6-10 guys that jumped me and beat me up pretty badly... They nearly killed me.. I know that doesn't compare to what Hitler did.. There is even more to the story that I would not like to address here.. Because it is very personal and what not.. I also, mean I forgave them in my own light and than in their own light... So, I even had the courage to address this matter to them personally.. At first I wanted to have them arrested, but I finally decided to drop the charges...

Just remember thoughts are just like words.. I know many people have had negative thoughts about others , including myself.. So, we all know the no sin and cast the first stone analogy by Jesus.. I'm not saying anywhere that I agree, with Walsch or Hilarion.. I'm just stating my own two cents.. You can ignore my post and I won't judge you.. I know I probably would too, if it was when I was younger and very intolerate of others beliefs.. So, I don't blame those who ignore my post.. Or if you disagree with my post.. I just want peace.. The evil want us to get angered... Love them with your kindness it will bring them to their knees.. I know I have trouble with this.. I'm just stating the truth of what I have been taught..

Just remember Hitler's life review has to be the worst experience ever.. That is his only hell.. If, he wants to beat himself up, than that will be his only hell too.. God doesn't create hell.. Man does with his thoughts of negativity, and hate..

peace n' love

Hey what's worse God creating hell of fire and brimstone for eternity, no mercy whatsoever for eternity.. Or what Hitler did.. I say God's is worse..

But than you have millions of Christians that believe God is loving and is no monster like Hitler.. But to me a God that would burn people for eternity, is more of a monster than Hitler and Joseph Stalin put together.. Why can people look past that type of God, and not look past what Hitler did..

I obviously don't believe in hell, but if it were true.. I'd say God is a MONSTER!!!

Briggs:

Going by my experiences and the experiences of others, lower realms do exist. I've had experiences which told me that a spirit can leave these realms any time they want, as long as they want to move in the direction of love and light. Nobody forces them to do so. As you say, when they make such a choice, they'll have to become honest about how they harmed others.

It is interesting that you bring up the fire and brimstone business. I don't believe in a wrathful, vengeful, jealous and angry God. However, I must say I don't see much of a difference between Jon Smith Hillarion's claim that God had Hitler cause all of the horror of World War II and the holocaust in order that Jewish people would move to Israel, and the fire and brimstone version of God. At least ways with the fire brimstone viewpoint God goes after the bad guys rather than have a bunch of innocent people go through all kinds of hell.

One of the key strategies cult leaders make use of is to tell people really outrageous things and to get them to do unreasonable things, because if you can hook people to such an extent, you really got them.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that Jon Smith channels a higher level being and Neale Donald Walsch channels God and these higher level beings stated that World war II and the holocaust were a part of a divine plan.




briggs5534 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 5:32pm:

Hey what's worse God creating hell of fire and brimstone for eternity, no mercy whatsoever for eternity.. Or what Hitler did.. I say God's is worse.. But than you have millions of Christians that believe God is loving and is no monster like Hitler.. But to me a God that would burn people for eternity, is more of a monster than Hitler and Joseph Stalin put together.. Why can people look past that type of God, and not look past what Hitler did.. I obviously don't believe in hell, but if it were true.. I'd say God is a MONSTER!!!

If anybody is interested, they can attend Neal Donald Walsch's three day retreat for only $895, meals and lodging "not" included. That's "only" $298.33 a day folks.  The thing I don't get, if it is so easy to channel God, why do we have to pay somebody else $298.33 a day in order to hear from him?

I for one, despite all the energetic work I've gone through couldn't come up with all the words Walsch supposedly comes up with, because it isn't easy to receive numerous words in such a way.  Doesn't it seem odd that famous mediums say things like, "I hear a J, like in Jim or John," and then Walsch so easilly receives word after word?

http://www.cwg.org/main.php?p=Retreats&sub=RSchedule

I see no problem with Hitler being in heaven. It dosen't have to be your heaven George, or Blink , or Briggs, etc, or my heaven for that matter. If he has excepted responsibility for his actions then there is no reasion for him not being in "Heaven". Some who are closed minded and unwilling to extend love to him will more than likely have their own Hells to go through before ever getting to a heaven. The effort made to entrap his being in some sort of hell will only entrap the person in that hell its self. What a miss-direction of a life force and a waste of energy when forgivness and love would do so mush more.
Joe.    

Excellent reply, Joe!  That's my sentiments, also.  --Carol Ann

Yes, I agree Joe and Carol.   :-*

wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 1:33pm:

Are you angry with God, for visiting you this way? Through human beings who see things differently than you do? I have had to ask myself that question. But, no, I choose not to be angry, not today. Not now. It is always my choice, to believe, not to believe, to agree, to disagree, to be angry, to be at peace. Much love to each of you, and may you, each and all, find the happiness you seek. love, blink

GOOD POINT.  
This is what I am 'learning' (the hard way of course. hehe)
That is we ALL have 'choices' to make.  ALL the time. We choose how we will react, or feel, or manifest.
'We Choose' how we are going to feel, react. 'We Choose' if we are going to be angry or happy.
From the day we are 'born' and even before that and after we pass on.
This is becoming more clear to me. That doesn't mean I make the correct choices. (DOH! ;))  For me anyways.
This is also where our own judgements of ourselves comes into play too.  AFTER whatever 'choices' we have made.
We can be hard on ourselves and not give ourselves the benefit of the doubt.

I realize with most of you all here that this is second nature to yourselves.  
Many of you have already figured this out for the most part.
Then again it never hurts to remind ourselves. Or simply put: 'Getting Back To Basics...'

The 'trick' for me is to try to not judge myself to harshly. Nothing wrong with re-evaluating your 'choices' over time.
BUT, to allow ourselves to 'feel guilty' over a choice that has been made no matter what it is can slow us down in our attempt to enlighten ourselves.

For me when dealing with 'God' (Or as I call this being: The Source of All things) is to not put God in a 'box'.(*See Below)
Not to make parameters for this being. God is beyond our full comprehension.
I myself cannot actually ever be 'angry' with God. God never can do anything to warrant that.
God would not be God (the Source) if God cause any hurts, damage, pain, suffering, etc in our lives.
We have Freedom of Will/Choice.  That is the 'Cause & Effect' on our own lives.

I personally cannot see a God or the Source of All things ever having a motive/agenda that will result in any harm toward anyone or anything.
God HAS to allow our own Freedom of Will.  That Freedom of Will/choice IS the Cause & Effect with other peoples lives. No matter how many lives that will entail.
God only wants to Love.  God also wants to experience life.  So that tells me God is still learning as well.


* The reason why I do not care for the term God anymore is this. It gives God (The Source of ALl Things) a human personality.
It can 'limit' God so to speak.
When I hear the term God I think of a Zeus type character that sits on a throne.
A character that has a book that says if we are Naughty or Nice and if we do not measure up then we get a 'lightening Bolt' for our misdeeds.
Or...get sent to this very nasty place.  That does not add up for me.
Any of this make any sense? I am real fatigued at the moment but, I had a real need to share this for some reason or another. :)

Hi Dood. I think you're with others getting to the point there.

It's really not possible to argue for an all knowing, all loving God (whatever 'God' means) without accepting that WW2 and all the negativity in the world is happening if not to an exact plan at least within a love inspired envelope of possibility (free will as you say is presumably in there too)  - that it's all heading towards a higher purpose.

Alternatives are to argue that there's lots of nasty stuff going on that's not supposed to be which blows any idea of Godly omnipotence (it heads us towards positing an independently existing evil force/devil that gets to call the shots a lot of the time, who could even get the upper hand in the end), or that there's a vengeful old testament God which blows any idea of universal love.

It's hard too (despite heavy conditioning by propaganda that has long sought to manufacture and demonise 'evildoers' as a simple means of manipulating public opinion) to pin the blame for it all on Adolf, when clearly he'd have been left ranting on a street corner and would have died in obscurity had he not caught the zeitgeist of his time. He was no more than a catalyst.

We all reach our own view on these things and must do so, but it's possible to sort the apparent problems by taking a higher and much less personalised view.

We do much of our learning when the  urge for short term selfish advantage collides with the fact that these behaviours don't actually bring happiness, and instead lead to suffering - we're forced to step back and re-evaluate, and often come to  'see' the error of our ways. We in contrast don't often do much to get out of the trough when life is good.

From the higher view death becomes a much less significant event. When the 'unreality' of worldly events viewed from the absolute (the ACIM or Eastern view) is also factored in, then it all becomes much more like a dream, or a convincing and very real simulation undertaken for the purpose of learning or whatever.

Meditative experience suggests that while we manifest in life as individuals, that this is (as many of you know) only a very superficial view of the reality.

It's clear that Adolf did wrong at an individual level, and he presumably incurred karmic debts because of this, but he was also the catalyst of a major  global learning experience that broke down the old attitudes and social structures in a way that led the enormous awakening that has occurred since.

But no more than the catalyst. It's clear too that the war emerged out of the geopolitical situation and heavily militaristic, hierarchical  and aggression based popular attitudes of the time, that if whole populations and countries had not been stuck in an imperial world view, and not been prepared to sh1t on others that it could not have happened.

Buddhism at it's most basic level (the four noble truths) teaches that the suffering in the world arises at the most basic level from our tendency to presume the existence of an individual self, and to out of this view grasp after pleasure and survival and avoidance of pain (all an impossibility) without regard for others or for the world.

That the world makes sense when we rise above this view and become able to accept the reality of impermanence. Perhaps our task in all of this is to in this way seek to raise our view.....

Hi If i saw this jon fox halarion face to face i would tell him that i am fed up with God being blamed when someone like hitler does this evil  on earth and i would say to him "God led the jewish people out of eygpt to freedom ,so why would God send someone like hitler to persecute and murder the  jewish people years later.God is no way asked that evil murdering piece of rotten flesh adolf hitler to kill the jews,God had nothing to do with it and i hope if hitler had a life review that he felt all the pain that he caused on earth and he deserves to stay for all eternity feeling that pain he gave so unmercifully to the jewish people,i hope hes in a living hell and is never allowed out.

I beleive in love and forgiveness but hitler will never get any love and forgiveness from me,theres some things you just cant forgive and hitler is one of them.Hitler was not mental just pure evil and sadistic,the devils righthand man,he  shot himself and his so called girlfriend,he had no guts to face the court rooms for his actions on earth,but he has not escaped justice in the spiritworld,hes on the lowest plain with all the other evil crap and thats were he belongs.

Love and God bless all the jewish men,women and children that died in the gas chambers and concentration camps,by the grace of God may they rest in peace.

Love and God bless    love juditha

wrote on Jun 7^th, 2008 at 12:02pm:

Hi If i saw this jon fox halarion face to face i would tell him that i am fed up with God being blamed when someone like hitler does this evil  on earth and i would say to him "God led the jewish people out of eygpt to freedom ,so why would God send someone like hitler to persecute and murder the  jewish people years later.God is no way asked that evil murdering piece of rotten flesh adolf hitler to kill the jews,God had nothing to do with it and i hope if hitler had a life review that he felt all the pain that he caused on earth and he deserves to stay for all eternity feeling that pain he gave so unmercifully to the jewish people,i hope hes in a living hell and is never allowed out. I beleive in love and forgiveness but hitler will never get any love and forgiveness from me,theres some things you just cant forgive and hitler is one of them. Love and God bless all the jewish men,women and children that died in the gas chambers and concentration camps,by the grace of God may they rest in peace. Love and God bless    love juditha

With all due respect if that statement of yours that I colored in red is true then you do not believe in Love & Forgiveness.
Lets be honest shall we?

If I remember correctly that Saul (that became Paul) was just as bad as any Hitler and he was forgiven.
In fact the point of that was to show that no one is singled out for no matter what they say or do.
All is forgiven! All without Exception!

By 'Grace Ye are Saved...'  correct? Not by any works or deeds.

This is one reason as to why I do not follow any earth religion.  Religion does not have real answers. Religion does not like to be questioned.
Religion is Static. Religion will fight change tooth and nail. Religion is not about spirituality.  Religion is about control.
And for that this is why I will always state that the Source of All Things (God if you will) is not 'religious'.

Hi old Dood  I do beleive in love and forgiveness,i love God and God knows that  i have said this,that hitler  desrves no forgiveness because that is how i feel about it but God knows this and i hope that God will forgive me for saying this but i still give no forgiveness to hitler.
The difference between (Saul) Paul and hitler is that Paul eventually turned to Gods  love and gave out love and light but hitler still stayed with the darkside to the very end of his life.

Love and God bless  love juditha

Hi george You are judgeing others on here saying we are not forgiving,God did not appoint you as judge and jury for the rest of us,God gave us all freewill to make our own minds up about things like hitler and other topics on here,and thats what we have done used our own freewill.

Love and God bless  love juditha

:) That's straight up honest Juditha (your first reply), which is the only place to start from. Anything else is delusion.

I guess it's easy for many of us to forgive in the Hitler case because it's mostly just an intellectual matter for us - not a matter of experience, or of having been exposed to a view that we've strongly bought into.

Now on the other hand if we were to be confronted by a carefully chosen issue (probably one we're not even aware of our prejudice on or inability to forgive) that presses the right  button we'd find it equally or even harder to forgive.

And would probably instead of being honest faff about trying to justify our position.

Re your second. There's a Buddhist saying 'first thought best thought'. We're of course entitled to our view...

varje you said

Quote:

I guess it's easy for many of us to forgive in the Hitler case because it's mostly just an intellectual matter for us - not a matter of experience, or of having been exposed to a view that we've strongly bought into. Now on the other hand if we were to be confronted by a carefully chosen issue (probably one we're not even aware of our prejudice on or inability to forgive) that presses the right  button we'd find it equally or even harder to forgive.

Varje you sum things up so nicely!!.

Forum

Do I hate Hitler do I need to forgive him?, no he is just a blot of history to me and my responses in previous posts was an attempt to place myself in the objective, like a JEW at the time of the holocaust. He simply does not affect me now and cannot , so why do I need  to love , forgive and embrace him now. If that time ever comes, God forbid, I  will make up my mind then

Blink

"mentally challenged" Do you know I am a life long sufferer from bi-polar disorder?, not the nice Hollywood type but the real manic/depressions of unspeakable  destructive life threatening pain. It was the cause of my NDE and to equate life’s up and downs to this is most unkind.

I will send an account of this by PM but only if you show interest, then maybe you will be more careful with your comments in the future. Your comment came across as mocking and if you did not mean it in this way I understand.

What makes this such a great forum is the great diversity of the members if all of us agreed on every point how boring the whole thing would become.

alan

Juditha.The mother mary appared to 3 children in fadima,and told the the chrildren in 1917 that the war,meaning the first world would war,would soon end,and there would be pease for a time.she goes on to say that if man does not mend his ways,a new and more terible war would com.she said,when you see a light so bright that people would not have to light a candle to see at midnight,know that this is a signe of war clouds forming.that light was seen and the second world war was about to start.So its sin that is the cause of all wars.You must forgive.George

Hi Alan. Thank you for the compliment. To be fair to Blink I think the reference to illness was in respect of Hitler - to convey the idea that he wasn't fully in control of himself and his actions, and that he was consequently deserving of forgiveness.  I don't think there was any intention to lump any other group into the same category.

The reality I think is that even at the best of times there's very few of us in control of our actions anyway - the rather arbitrary ill/not ill distinction made by psychologists is rather questionable. Holding views regarded as normal/not normal is more like what they assess, but there's nothing very sane about how society conditions most of us to think.

We so easily get stuck in a mistaken view (in Hitler's case it was that it was somehow deemed OK to make indiscriminate use force and terror to secure the aims of one group of people over another), and can so easily spend whole lifetimes blindly playing out a dysfunctional strategy without ever tumbling to the fact that it's causing the most intense suffering for both ourselves and many others.

I didn't realise you had suffered with that form of depression, it's by all accounts such a tough road.  :)Thank you for sharing ...

Hi george  I just cannot find it in me to forgive the suffering he caused even though i was not around at that time,so hitler must affect those even today as hitler has never been forgotten and hes remembered to this day for the suffering he caused,i cant understand how he could have grown up from a innocent child to do what he did,God gave him freewill to live his life like the rest of us,

I will ask God in my prayers to help me to try to forgive on this and i know God will help me out with this because God knows my heart is troubled by all the suffering that hitler caused and God knows of my struggle here to forgive but like i say God will help me to forgive oneday.

We will always have wars because there will always be a hitler somewhere trying to cause wars and suffering,most of us in this world want peace and love everywhere but its not going to happen because oneday man will destroy the earth completely.

Love and God bless    love juditha

Regarding Hitler:
It is not that his 'episode' was merely representative of any intermittant difficulty or misstep that inevitably occurs within the struggles of human development, individual or group, or even the very unfortunate destruction of so many innocent individual lives which was indeed tragic, or the wantonly selfish and violent destruction of national and international harmony no matter how imperfectly manifesting -- but it was also the unprecedented, deliberate, concentrated  attempt of a great hostile anti-divine force to actually turn back and reverse the general human evolution, to forcefully re-condition millions of human beings by hatred and perverse negative principles, to violently enslave the greater humanity and eventually the entire world in the service of negative forces of which Hitler as leader, was a conscious, willing and dedicated instrument, or possibly even the enthusiatically posessed incarnation of one himself. This may have been so egregiously a deliberate violation of the Cosmic Law and Will as to render God's Compassion deferrential to an unusual form of divine Justice - therefore it is possible that his individual soul was not given a chance to 'reform' pursuant to a difficult life review, but simply was permanently extinguished in this case. This would obviously be an extremely rare occurrance, but one that could have been deemed appropriate and enacted by One Who not only makes the rules, but Who therefore can alter them as well. No longer  having a human soul, such a being would lose the priviledge of realization and be permanently relegated to some typal world,etc., where individual evolution does not occur - or perhaps the entire 'being' was eliminated from the creation.

Hi Old Dood   I dont do religion,i just love and beleive in the one and only true God our divine Father in Heaven.

Thanks vajra for what you wrote,my grandmother always told me to be true to my heart and always try to be as honest as i can about everything in my life if i can.

Love and God bless    love juditha

I never said you did Juditha.

It is obvious you are not getting what I am talking about so I will stop here...

Hi Dood i was not having a go at you i was just trying to say i understand what you mean about religion,i was actually agreeing with you,sorry if it looked like i was having a go,i did not mean it to look that way.

Cmon Dood I loves you ,God loves you,lifes to short to fall out,sorry,will you forgive me. ;)

Love and God bless   love juditha

Vajra, you said:

"...there's nothing very sane about how society conditions most of us to think. "

This is the truest thing I've heard all day. Think about how we teach our children, if they are lucky, to forgive, to share, to kiss and make up.

Why do we teach this to children and then, as adults, something different? To be patriotic, to obey orders, to fit in.

Why do we follow through with insanity, when it is not necessary? Don't we have minds of our own? When did we forget this?

recoverer wrote on Jun 6^th, 2008 at 5:53pm:

Briggs: Going by my experiences and the experiences of others, lower realms do exist. I've had experiences which told me that a spirit can leave these realms any time they want, as long as they want to move in the direction of love and light. Nobody forces them to do so. As you say, when they make such a choice, they'll have to become honest about how they harmed others. It is interesting that you bring up the fire and brimstone business. I don't believe in a wrathful, vengeful, jealous and angry God. However, I must say I don't see much of a difference between Jon Smith Hillarion's claim that God had Hitler cause all of the horror of World War II and the holocaust in order that Jewish people would move to Israel, and the fire and brimstone version of God. At least ways with the fire brimstone viewpoint God goes after the bad guys rather than have a bunch of innocent people go through all kinds of hell. One of the key strategies cult leaders make use of is to tell people really outrageous things and to get them to do unreasonable things, because if you can hook people to such an extent, you really got them. I find it incredibly hard to believe that Jon Smith channels a higher level being and Neale Donald Walsch channels God and these higher level beings stated that World war II and the holocaust were a part of a divine plan. briggs5534 wrote on Jun 6th, 2008 at 5:32pm: Hey what's worse God creating hell of fire and brimstone for eternity, no mercy whatsoever for eternity.. Or what Hitler did.. I say God's is worse.. But than you have millions of Christians that believe God is loving and is no monster like Hitler.. But to me a God that would burn people for eternity, is more of a monster than Hitler and Joseph Stalin put together.. Why can people look past that type of God, and not look past what Hitler did.. I obviously don't believe in hell, but if it were true.. I'd say God is a MONSTER!!!

Yes, I never said that lower realms don't exist.. I just said God never created hell.. Man does with his ego mind of negativity, hate, and other lower vibrations...

peace n' love

Hi guys

I just did a web search to see who people consider the most evil person in history.

Note this is not my list.

1) Adolf Hitler

2) Joseph Stalin

3) George Bush (I dont agree)

4) The Devil

Heck people the Devil could only make fifth place!

This was posted for a little fun and please dont take it seriously

Alan

Hi after i wrote on here about what i thought of hitler,i had a very restless night and part of the dream i had was that i had to swallow these three crosses made from wood and i cant work out why i dreamed this on the same night i had written what i thought about hitler

Love and God bless   love juditha

Hi old dood you said that i dont beleive in love and forgiveness but its a certainty you dont ,you have not even bothered to answer what i wrote to you after you said i did not know what you were trying to say ,so you have already held judgement on me as i did in no way mean when "i wrote dont do religion"that i thought you were saying i did,you obviously have made your mind up that i did ,so dont write on here about love and forgiveness if you dont even practise it,i said sorry to you when i had no reason to as you accussed me of something i never even meant when i wrote "i dont do religion"theres so many hypoctorites in this world,say one thing and never even practise it when it is needed.
As far as i,m concerned hitler can go swivel on the devil's fork,i will never forgive him.

Love and God bless  love juditha

Juditha!  Oh my Goodness!  I love your new Avatar!
Is that you?  You're beautiful!

And don't forget our American Hitler: General George Custer.  He massacred, tortured and raped men, women and children with not thought of consequence. He and the US Government were responsible for the geneside destruction of hundreds of thousands of human beings, then DC set up a national park in Custer's name.  How arrogantly tenacious!!  I certainly do not want those "solders of hate" in my heaven.  I hope that Custer and the US Government officials responsible suffer all the geneside suffering of those human beings over and over in their personal hell before "God" or any pure Essence grants them forgiveness, at which time they may go to their own paradise.  At least in my paradise there will be no differences in skin color or religious or political belief--- just pure love.  If God ask me to forgive them, I will think about it first----- after all--- I'm not the creator for everyone elses reality.   Love and light Carol Ann

Hi SHSS Thankyou for saying my picture is beautiful and it is a picture of me.

Love and God bless     Love Juditha

Hitler needs no forgiveness from anyone here. Most likely he has moved on to different lessons. Retaining such hate is only doing those who are doing the hating harm and keeping that evil alive. I tend to have agreement with Cat. Custer was no better. Bush is killing many and deserves no better that Hitler. These types of people are countless. This world is crawling with them. Its yourself where you should be looking. Have you and do you allow yourself to be in agreement with these poor trapped souls? I send out love to hitler, Bush, Jim Jones, and all the rest. Its like the Towers bomber. He wants to die and by us killing him, he will go right to his heaven. Heaven, and make no doupts about it. Thats right where he will go. (Thats not to say its your or mine.) Its time to open up a new way of thinking. If there is a change about to happin as many of us here think, how do you want to be at the time of the change? Hating others. Trying to be the one in controlor have power over others? No thanks. I haven't gone through this many lifetimes to mess it all up now. John Lennon had it right. "All you need is Love".
Joe

I love what you said, Joe. I have had this same conversation countless times with my partner, and he is just horrified at the idea that that "murderers" would be in the "same" heaven as those who have suffered injustice at their hands.

So, what if it is not the "same" heaven, but that each person, through the grace of God, is given exactly what is needed? And not in small measure, but in vast measure, beyond what we can imagine.

Why would such a person, who suffers from hate, for hate is suffering, not be given relief, in the way of even the "smallest portion" of understanding what abundance really is?

I can't answer these questions myself, so I'll just leave it.

The reason behind what hitler and God did,is because most of you dont understand,that the body is not the real you.you dont understand how god works.all those people that died by hitler,they just lost there human body.after the body dies the people just walk away,they are still alive,with no pain what so ever.George

Hi George The jewish people did lose there bodies,but it was hitler what made them suffer and die,also George Why would God lead his people out of Egypt only to turn round years later to put hitler on the earth plain to kill and hurt his people,it does not make sense,God had nothing to do with what Hitler did,hitler was an evil,sadistic b******d.

Love and God bless   love juditha

Juth you were not around when after the first world war,germany had to bring tons of paper to but bread to live.the jews had all the money,but would not help the people.so when hitler came along,he toke the money from and built his war machine,and it was not only hitler but many of the countrys he invaded killed the jews,they would not obay God.George

But Juditha, when Moses led the Jews out of the desert and across the red sea dfidn't the hand of God part the seas so they could cross? Then, to the joy of Moses, killed every last person, no matter what they personaly beleved, as they followed after them. Now who is the mass murderer here? Evil? Does that make God the better of the two. God or Hitler. They both killed others. Do you think that all those who were killed by God deserved to die? And if so why? Because they wern't Jews?
Joe  

Hi Joe and george  I know that God killed the egyptians and its all beginning to be confusing,i suppose really God killed the egyptians because if they had got through the red sea ,they would have killed the jews and God just wanted to stop that happening,thats the only explanation i can give for that personally.

Perhaps the jewish people would not give the germans there money because they had an idea that hitler was going to come and kill them,i mean perhaps someone found out the plans of hitler and forwarned the jews,so they wouldnt give the germans money,who they knew where going to turn round and crap in there face and  kill them,i dont know if this did happen but who knows it could have done.

God killed the egyptians by drowning them but hitler killed the jews in gas chambers and made them suffer before they died so i would say that God was better than Hitler because he killed the egyptians quick and they did'nt suffer and Hitler killed the jews slowly so they suffered so God was not as cruel as Hitler,God is the better one.

Love and God bless    love juditha

Joe and juth,there are many things we dont understand about God.why do little children get killed by sick people,and why did God not stop it from happening.George

Alan McDougall wrote on Jun 9^th, 2008 at 12:44pm:

Hi guys I just did a web search to see who people consider the most evil person in history. Note this is not my list. 1) Adolf Hitler 2) Joseph Stalin 3) George Bush (I dont agree) 4) The Devil Heck people the Devil could only make fifth place! This was posted for a little fun and please dont take it seriously Alan

and........

5) Pieter Willem Botha ("The Big Crocodile") ?

6) O. Bin Laden ?

7) Judah (Hebrew: יְהוּדָה)?

8) The Sanhedrin Trial (Jews people who killed Christ) ?

9) Castro Brothers ?

10) The Borgias?

11) Gaius Julius (Caligula)?

12) Mao Tse-tung ?

13) Hồ Chí Minh ?

14) Duvalier?

15) Jonas Sabimbi?

16) Che Guevara?, Count Dracula ?, W.L. Lenin ? Ivan "the Terrible".................................

I think it is best to "forgive", this is the best option, the list is endless depending on the viewpoint of everyone, love and forgiveness THAT IS THE ANSWER.

FORGIVE - LOVE  

juan

Well George, On the subject of God. That just might be a interesting new topic for a thread.
Who /what is God?
It would seem that my idea of God and others here are very different.
Joe

Joe most people think God is a man who sits around all the time.God is pure spirit with a plan for mankind.everything happens for the good of man,in the long run.George

God is the opposite of this world. Juditha God is not vengeful, nor did he create life only to kill it.
Man's ego is what kills. Hitler is not rewarded either, we reap what we sow.
Hitler is in a BST but he will have chances for evolving to higher levels. I'm not sure though, I've heard there are some few and rare souls get kicked out of their disc if they won't change their minds and turn towards the love factor.

very rare, and possibly, Hitler is one of these rare type. this just what I picked up from reading about this stuff. I personally have gotten beyond the need to study the holocaust and that history and who did what and who's to blame..etc.  it does appear some souls come to this planet expressly for war purposes.

most of us are tired of war. we want a new way.

..that everything you see, hear, touch, taste, smell, or

sense in any way is an aspect of Divinity.

It is when you judge it to be something else that it shows

up as something else in your life. Therefore, judge not,

and neither condemn.


For that which you judge, judges you; and that which

you condemn will condemn you. Yet that which you see

for what it really is will see you for what you really are.

And therein will be found your peace.

Sending love,
Nanner

Nanner, when you say judge not, that is music to my ears.  Oh! Goodness me, how truly wonderful, you have no idea.  I watched a DVD of Bruce Moen's and he talks about there being NO judgment in focus 27 or above.  We do not know another's life or what their purpose might be or anything.  Who are we to be so condemning of others?  Whoops, is that a judgment?

Without judgement and without ego. I would think that most of our beliefs will be well left behind once we truely pass the area of focus 26. Isn't the beief in "heaven" itself really limiting your true self to an area in the BST? Moving through the areas is great but I woulden't want to stay there for all of my existence.(?) And if heaven is just perhaps focus 26, then is going to heaven a thing that should be desired or sought?
Joe

hawkeye wrote on Jun 20^th, 2008 at 3:49pm:

Without judgement and without ego. I would think that most of our beliefs will be well left behind once we truely pass the area of focus 26. Isn't the beief in "heaven" itself really limiting your true self to an area in the BST? Moving through the areas is great but I woulden't want to stay there for all of my existence.(?) And if heaven is just perhaps focus 26, then is going to heaven a thing that should be desired or sought? Joe

PERFECTION, IMO
Yes, let's leave all that behind, wonderful!

Love,
SHSS   http://smileyonline.free.fr/images/19032003/boj_la_vache.gif

I wonder the same thing, Joe. Whenever I begin to describe my own view of heaven to friends or family it never seems to match their idea of heaven. I like some of their ideas of heaven very much, though.

But, I do wonder about it, wonder what I really know anyway? If we are so conditioned by our experiences here on earth to like, love, dislike, hate this or that or the other....and if our experiences in the afterlife are at least in part created by our own consciousness, our own thoughts, how are these afterlife experiences colored by our conditioning?

There are lots of accounts of an afterlife in which what is "impossible" here is possible there, such as the blind being able to see, etc. etc.

How long does it take for our "conditioning" to fall off of us?

From what I read and experience, we are not alone, at least at certain stages of experience in the afterlife. And it doesn't seem like most people are greeted in the afterlife by "aliens" or creatures they don't recognize. We find ourselves, if this is all to be believed, many of us, in conditions which are lovely and familiar enough to bring us happiness. Familiar in that we can appreciate through new senses many experiences which bring wonder or satisfaction.

But, yes, I wonder what lies beyond. What "all" is there?