I've been reading and tripped over what I thought was a lovely encapsulation of this issue and thought you guys might like it:

'No soul (substitute your term for the eternal bit) contains evil. Underlying all human action is the search for love, and when people are driven to evil actions the root cause is lack of love. ......... -human beings are already saved, no matter how dire the current predicament looks'.

Despite the language being a little typical of a certain sort of belief system the bit in italics seems especially profound and helpful to keep in mind to me.

This is Deepak Chopra quoting the NDE of a Mellen-Thomas Benedict who died for 11/2 hours in 1982 from a brain tumour, but apparently came back with it gone. It's at p 122 of 'Life After Death - The Book of Answers'. Rider/Ebury Publishing 2008.

As before I've tended to shy away from the apparently populist tone of much of Chopra, but have been impressed by the way he bridges Vedantic thought and science in this book - with a lot of heart.

PS Just found this after writing the above: http://www.mellen-thomas.com/

 As i perceive it, there arose chaotic elements within Source's Creation and individualized aspects of self.   The question is, can all these chaotic elements be rehabilitated or do they need to be remolded or reformed?  How much freewill do they really have, if they arose with a certain pre tendency?  As they say, "character" is destiny..

 I believe that even Source was "experimenting" to some extent in creating it's Creation (a perception and idea which is echoed in Bruce's explorations and in his 4th book).  This leaves room for some chaos potential (evil is too much of a loaded term for me).  

 As far as what you posted, and quoted, i believed the same for a long time myself.   It's certainly a comforting belief, but reality isn't always what's most comforting to our human, emotional oriented selves.  

 For example, at least a few sources like Bruce Moen and the Cayce readings, both talk about a very similar idea, that there is a true and final death potential that some Consciousnesses by stubborn, and consistent use of the freewill towards that of severe, chronic, unLove can attract to themselves.  

It seems to be pretty rare (one of my other selves i believed experienced this), but still happens.  

While in the New Age commercialized pop teachings, it is said that every Consciousness is completely eternal no questions asked and nothing can change that.  

So apparently, not everyone is "already saved" if what Moen, Cayce, and some other sources say are true.  Some can and do wipe out their own existence, not in a conscious, "i want to do this" manner, but in a somewhat automatic, natural energy-consciousness reaction manner.  

 So, things may be a little more complicated than what some of the more mainstream belief systems and teachers out there might have us believe.     I would love to believe that every single human is already saved--it is upsetting to believe otherwise.  

I don't in truth know the answer to that Justin, in that I suppose all teaching and all reported experience can only be spot data and is a matter of interpretation. And there's so many views, leading to so many possible interpretations.

So I'm not arguing for any view here - only for our avoiding rigid beliefs.

It's possibly the case that the quotation actually contains no disagreement with the Monroe etc view - that it's a matter of language. The word 'soul' is very specifically used in the quote.

There's  possibly an implied distinction being made here between 'soul' and 'ego' or 'personality'.

One interpretation might be that the incorrigibly fearful personality for whom gross self indulgence becomes the exclusive mode of behaviour eventually ceases to exist - in that it develops no attributes  of spiritual value to be passed on, and the resulting  pseudo entity simply does not survive.

It's perhaps worth saying too that Buddhism (and other traditions I've encountered) teach natural goodness too. But they also teach of the existence of self/mind made hells, and of of the impermanence of ego/personality. Yet Buddhism also very explicitly suggests that we all get there in the end.

It's perhaps as we've discovered already all a matter of view.

What I like about the quote is that I've on occasion resorted to half a page of blather about natural goodness to say what's said there in a sentence.

Whatever the reality, I guess that as a matter of practicality we truly don't have the option to see those that act badly towards us in any way other than as seeking and being deserving of love...

Ian quote: Whatever the reality, I guess that as a matter of practicality we truly don't have the option to see those that act badly towards us in any way other than as seeking and being deserving of love...
____

this works for me, to waylay reactionary emotions within my own ego, to see them as asking for love. it's a bit like the turn the other cheek idea, but more in line with non resistance of darkness appearing. didn't want to use the word evil. too old fashioned. This is also what ACIM teaches, but are you saying you got this from Buddha teachings or Vendanta?

The course does see the ego and essence of soul as two separate voices, with the ego speaking first, and corrected perception speaking 2nd. It calls the voice for God Holy Spirit. I just call it spirit.

I had trouble with language in the Course. we are anti religion in this century and I had my own bias there, but the psychology of human nature is all there outlined. we are either coming from fear or from love at all times, but can't come from fear and love at the same time.
anger can be determined to be fear as well, and whether the ego is feeding on the anger or the HS is using your anger, but in the beginning, say, lol, the first 20 years of practice, the idea is to understand love behind our actions operating as our essence, and everyone is deserving and sharing of this love. A love path perhaps. or heart path. if you stay on it long enough it flows out from your being as an energy, or like your aura. but it is not the ego doing it, then the ego likes to take credit, you know, but it's not the ego for sure, ego is jealousy and negation and division principle.
It's involved basically, the way I see it, with the 1st chakra, fight or flight.

our dna slowly changes our fight or flight tendencies, or we do this by meditating. or by choosing every moment, love or fear.
so we have at least free will to choose either one.
that especially about the two emotions helped me to decide exactly where I was coming from as it can be a really subtle thing, those emotions. we have tendencies to be able to justify ourselves and deceive ourselves so the ego can feel "right."

Hey! I gotta get off this puter...hi Justin! good to see you here.

Hi A. I guess it's Tibetan Buddhism I'm most familiar with, the language is different to above but it basically sees a separation between ego and the 'real' being or 'true nature of mind' too. The little I know about Vedanta suggests that it's view is not dissimilar.

It also teaches love (compassion is the word usually used) as the required response to everything - because to react selfishly is only to reinforce our perception of separation, which increases suffering for all.

The game is awakening (from the dream of separation you might say), and as you suggest the realisation of nothing short of a new state of being. A transformation that goes far beyond just running yet another intellectually figured out gameplan...

Hi vajra,
members,
All well I hope.

On the subject of evil:
Although this was written almost 100 years ago, it impresses me as one of, if not the most cogent and authentic discussions for the contemporary mind on the subject of the origins of evil I have ever come across and why I recommend it here. I say 'discussion' because the author routinely posits and then addresses as part of his exposition, many of the common arguments that are usually brought forth in this vein. In addition to his apparently prodigious insight, this makes it a remarkably thorough treatment of the subject, long held as among the most difficult and perplexing for human seekers and intellectual scholars.

Even though a relatively difficult read, imo much can be gained, so patience and a measured perserverance is recommended in approaching it - at least that is what I found to greatly assist my own attempts.  

I have linked to the table of contents (the entire book's text is available online), so interested people can have access to many other subject areas commonly queried and explored by seekers, hopefully toward the satisfactory resolution of such questions, and/or practical implimentation if they feel the material has merit for their individual spiritual practice.

Peace and Light,

u




"The Life Divine" by Sri Aurobindo
http://sriaurobindoashram.info/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-01%20Works%20of%20Sri%20Aurobindo/-01%20English/-18_The%20Life%20Divine_Volume-18  

scroll down to the very bottom - end of Book 2, Part 1, and link to:
Chapter XIV -   The Origin and Remedy of Falsehood, Error, Evil


Excerpt - first and last paragraphs of Chapter XIV

Quote:

IF Ignorance is in its nature a self-limiting knowledge oblivious of the integral self-awareness and confined to an exclusive concentration in a single field or upon a concealing surface of cosmic movement, what, in this view, are we to make of the problem which most poignantly preoccupies the mind of man when it is turned on the mystery of his own existence and of cosmic existence, the problem of evil? A limited knowledge supported by a secret All-Wisdom as an instrument for working out within the necessary limitations a restricted world-order may be admitted as an intelligible process of the universal Consciousness and Energy; but the necessity of falsehood and error, the necessity of wrong and evil or their utility in the workings of the omnipresent Divine Reality is less easily admissible. And yet if that Reality is what we have supposed it to be, there must be some necessity for the appearance of these contrary phenomena, some significance, some function that they had to serve in the economy of the universe. For in the complete and inalienable self-knowledge of the Brahman which is necessarily all-knowledge, since all this that is is the Brahman, such phenomena cannot have come in as a chance, an intervening accident, an involuntary forgetfulness or confusion of the Consciousness-Force of the All-Wise in the cosmos or an ugly contretemps for which the indwelling Spirit was not prepared and of which it is the prisoner erring in a labyrinth with the utmost difficulty of escape. Nor can it be an inexplicable mystery of being, original and eternal, of which the divine All-Teacher is incapable of giving an account to himself or to us. There must be behind it a significance of the All-Wisdom itself, a power of the All-Consciousness which permits and uses it for some indispensable function in the present workings of our self-experience and world-experience. This aspect of existence needs now to be examined more directly and determined in its origins and the limits of its reality and its place in Nature. [...................................................] But the last division to be removed is the scission between this Nature and the Supernature which is the Self-Power of the Divine Existence. Even before the dynamic Knowledge-Ignorance is removed, while it still remains as an inadequate instrumentation of the spirit, the supreme Shakti or Supernature can work through us and we can be aware of her workings; but it is then by a modification of her light and power so that it can be received and assimilated by the inferior nature of the mind, life and body. But this is not enough; there is needed an entire remoulding of what we are into a way and power of the divine Supernature. The integration of our being cannot be complete unless there is this transformation of the dynamic action; there must be an uplifting and change of the whole mode of Nature itself and not only some illumination and transmutation of the inner ways of the being. An eternal Truth-Consciousness must possess us and sublimate all our natural modes into its own modes of being, knowledge and action; a spontaneous truth-awareness, truth-will, truth-feeling, truth-movement, truth-action can then become the integral law of our nature. - Sri Aurobindo

Justin and others,

I have just entered this thread and need some catching up before making a meaningful comment.

justin said

I
Quote:

believe that even Source was "experimenting" to some extent in creating it's Creation (a perception and idea which is echoed in Bruce's explorations and in his 4th book).  This leaves room for some chaos potential (evil is too much of a loaded term for me).

I Agree I see what they call evolution as just an experiment by God leading up the present earthly reality as sentient beings. The great lizards abandoned for the better idea of placental mammals and the isolated Australian experiment with marsupial mammals are just examples

Like Justin, I believe God does the same thing with the cosmos and indeed all of existence.

Whatever we call Evil “a rose is a rose by any name “and God for some purpose allows this!!

Alan

Thanks for that Ultra - you're right that SA is not the easiest read, but he seems basically to be saying that evil (and i agree with Justin's caution on using the word since it's so loaded) is a matter of view or perspective.

This from the thread on spiritual progress maybe brings home one aspect of where he's coming from:

'nuclear weaponry is one major demonstration of man's drive to place himself in situations requiring the most remarkable leaps in growth - that one development alone has (in order to avoid certain destruction) been responsible for a historically unprecedented raising of global consciousness'.  

The constant is presumably that it's all in hand, but we struggle as a result of an intensely personal/egoistic viewpoint (one that seeks  a shorter term avoidance of suffering at the expense of the bigger picture and longer term benefit) to see that this is actually the case....