Hi and Good Day All, i have been doing a number of reading of different books and the conclusion of most of the books seen to say the same thing ( That we choose our next life and of coarse our parents ). I have a slight problem with this - now is an example that is happening in my life. I had a date this weekend with a friend of my sisters. A woman with a heart of gold , is kind and has gentle has a lamb . Now this particular woman has had some to say the least very bad relationships ie been battered by her partner both physically and mentally. Now i for one can not understand why a person would want to choose a life like that. But even if that person did choose that life for a particular reason , the person who did the abusing did he now choose a life so that he could create misery and others. Did that person waste a life just to help another progress. Not so sure.

Surely when one is born into a new life that life must be determined by the previous life one lived. Live a good life increases your spiritual development. We have terms like cause and effect , freewill , karma and all of this must have some bearing on our next life. We are born , learn and return until we have reached a level of spiritual development that keeps us in the spiritual realms.

Or do we choose the life but not the circumstances ie choose the parents and were and when but our freewill determines the outcome. But if someone is so bad does that person not need retribution for the misery that he or she has to bring on others.

I mean people like Hitler does that person yes we know when he passes over goes to the lower astral planes but does someone like him be limited to the type of life he can live. Some books say that people who suffer here are those that were bad in there last life. There seens to be alot of conflicting reports on what happens when one moves from the phyiscal to the astral to the spritual.Please help has im confused with a number of these points.

Greetings Reach!

Your interest in this problem speaks well of you since your kindness and concern for your friend has motivated it.

Some of our life events we choose, some are planned by Higher Spirit and by members of your heavenly family, the group you return to between incarnations. Alot of it we can't understand now since we don't have enough consciousness while on Earth to see 'the big picture.'

In the top blue bar on this page, there is a window next to a small magnifying glass. If you will type in  Hitler  you will get links to several of the discussions people have recently had here.

What you are thinking about is 'why is there evil?'   and that has confounded humans forever.Maybe the best we can do is to try not to add to evil-- and better yet to help heal those who have suffered from it.

Love, Bets

Dear Friend-

It seems to me that you are considering things only from the human viewpoint, and with a decidedly Judeo-Christian bent. This is not incorrect, just limited in my opinion.

Yes, I believe that even the abused play a role in their abuse, just as the abuser has a role. I personally believe there is no coincidence whatsoever, and that every bit of every thing you encounter is there at your behest. The Course in Miracles goes so far as to suggest that there is NOTHING at all "out there" and that you are dreaming ALL of it, even the other people who seem separate, but who are really just projections of your Self so you can blame "them" rather than deal with the guilt yourself. Well, we did used to sing "Life is but a Dream..." It is. It goes on to say that none of this, not one bit, is created by God, but was the result of the crazy thought of the Son of God that it might be separated from God to begin with. And in that instant, "when the Son of God forgot to laugh at how absurd an idea this was that anything could be separate from the Father" the Big Bang happened. And more-- that God will not and cannot intervene in this creation without making it real, which of course, it is not. Yes, in my opinion you are creating and drawing to you EXACTLY what you have devised for your own purposes of your lifetime, good or bad. No coincidences at all.

You say "surely" there is some justice and karma, and some sort of hierarchy of good and evil over there. There is not. As Neale Donald Walsch wrote in Book 1 of Conversations with God, "Even Hitler went to heaven." And I believe this is true. Try to think about it, as evil as it all was, as someone trying to show ourselves to us, to show the insanity of war and human indifference and suffering. It did not work, not really in a truly effective way. The looters are still looting, the news is full of fear and loathing, and there is still ethnic cleansing happening right this moment. Doesn't God care? Not really. There is nothing we can really do to hurt our real self, unless of course you look at it only through human earthly eyes. From this limited view we are victims of it all, recipients of a stream of happenstance and plagued by illness, famine, earthquakes.

You are not your body any more than a radio playing Beethoven is Beethoven. If you took the radio apart, Beethoven is not in there. Likewise, you are not really in there either. We are broadcasting from somewhere else, creating and holding the Dream, the Timeline for our purposes of learning and acting out every possible thing we can, even being handicapped and dealing with tragedy. Would we really learn anything if we were not challenged? Would we have evolved?

Just my two cents worth. It may seem harsh, but I truly belive we create it all just as we would have it.

Great Light,
Thomas

Reach wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 3:08pm:

Hi and Good Day All, i have been doing a number of reading of different books and the conclusion of most of the books seen to say the same thing ( That we choose our next life and of coarse our parents ). I have a slight problem with this - now is an example that is happening in my life. I had a date this weekend with a friend of my sisters. A woman with a heart of gold , is kind and has gentle has a lamb . Now this particular woman has had some to say the least very bad relationships ie been battered by her partner both physically and mentally. Now i for one can not understand why a person would want to choose a life like that. But even if that person did choose that life for a particular reason , the person who did the abusing did he now choose a life so that he could create misery and others. Did that person waste a life just to help another progress. Not so sure. Surely when one is born into a new life that life must be determined by the previous life one lived. Live a good life increases your spiritual development. We have terms like cause and effect , freewill , karma and all of this must have Welcome to the forum Reach. some bearing on our next life. We are born , learn and return until we have reached a level of spiritual development that keeps us in the spiritual realms. Or do we choose the life but not the circumstances ie choose the parents and were and when but our freewill determines the outcome. But if someone is so bad does that person not need retribution for the misery that he or she has to bring on others. I mean people like Hitler does that person yes we know when he passes over goes to the lower astral planes but does someone like him be limited to the type of life he can live. Some books say that people who suffer here are those that were bad in there last life. There seens to be alot of conflicting reports on what happens when one moves from the phyiscal to the astral to the spritual.Please help has im confused with a number of these points.

Welcome to the forum Reach.
What always amazes me is how so many people will throw out religion and rightfully so, IMO.  They find out they have been fed a bunch of controlling bunk and then they will pick up new-age books, and believe anything they read.  I guess we don't learn too easy.  This is why I want to find things out for myself.  Then I will check with others.

A little true story:
I had not seen my cousin since we were little kids and she found me on the internet.  She could not wait to start in on how many times she had been married and how many loves she had and each and every one of them had beaten her.  She played pitiful to the max and was quite proud of how horrid her life had been and she went on and on about these horrid men.
I asked her if she had seen anything odd about the fact that she was always drawing these sort of men into her life.  Could she possibly have something to do with it?
She could not hear me through her tears and stories of woe.  I had not seen someone in my entire life who enjoyed suffering so much.  She clung to her misery as if her very life depended on it.
To make a long story short, I had never met such a hateful vengeful person in my life and could not get far enough away.

Hope this makes sense,   :)
Love,
SHSS

Thank you for your time and answers.

Here is my take on a souls progression to the Source which can take many many life times or a few depending on that person.

A New soul is born his first time around but we cant expect to be incarnated has Paris Hilton and have the good easier life, no life lessons must be learnt and harsh ones of that. Now depending on the progression of that soul durning that life time must have some bearing of his new life in his new carnation. ie if that soul has had a positive out come in his previous life - Positive Karma then a easier physical life awaits so new life lessons can be learnt. While all these reincarnations are happening life lessons are being learnt and added to ones own Higher Self. Now a brand new soul would not have these experiences those have very little in his Higher Self to call upon. Although all the answers are out there a new soul would be like a sheep and follows rather than leads. Souls are on vary degrees of development on the physical.

The above applies to the opposite if a soul who has been reincarnated and has many life times of experiences to call upon but chooses to ignore for the sake of his ego and material wealth he/she then has a negative karma and must balance this out in his progression to Nirvana. He/ she therefore has a worse life then they previous one to address there imperfections.

Still reading lots to learn and if anyone can recommend some good reading material i would greatly appreciated.

betson wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:14pm:

Greetings Reach! Your interest in this problem speaks well of you since your kindness and concern for your friend has motivated it. Some of our life events we choose, some are planned by Higher Spirit and by members of your heavenly family, the group you return to between incarnations. Alot of it we can't understand now since we don't have enough consciousness while on Earth to see 'the big picture.' In the top blue bar on this page, there is a window next to a small magnifying glass. If you will type in  Hitler  you will get links to several of the discussions people have recently had here. What you are thinking about is 'why is there evil?'   and that has confounded humans forever.Maybe the best we can do is to try not to add to evil-- and better yet to help heal those who have suffered from it. Love, Bets

Hi Bets , thanks and yes it is ture that I see a beautiful person who has done no wrong have the life she has lived.

The one point a hope you can address for me is "heavenly family" is this the same has the family that I have had on the physical or something else. Has there are a few family members that i would rather not see again :)

tgecks wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:42pm:

Dear Friend- It seems to me that you are considering things only from the human viewpoint, and with a decidedly Judeo-Christian bent. This is not incorrect, just limited in my opinion. Yes, I believe that even the abused play a role in their abuse, just as the abuser has a role. I personally believe there is no coincidence whatsoever, and that every bit of every thing you encounter is there at your behest. The Course in Miracles goes so far as to suggest that there is NOTHING at all "out there" and that you are dreaming ALL of it, even the other people who seem separate, but who are really just projections of your Self so you can blame "them" rather than deal with the guilt yourself. Well, we did used to sing "Life is but a Dream..." It is. It goes on to say that none of this, not one bit, is created by God, but was the result of the crazy thought of the Son of God that it might be separated from God to begin with. And in that instant, "when the Son of God forgot to laugh at how absurd an idea this was that anything could be separate from the Father" the Big Bang happened. And more-- that God will not and cannot intervene in this creation without making it real, which of course, it is not. Yes, in my opinion you are creating and drawing to you EXACTLY what you have devised for your own purposes of your lifetime, good or bad. No coincidences at all. You say "surely" there is some justice and karma, and some sort of hierarchy of good and evil over there. There is not. As Neale Donald Walsch wrote in Book 1 of Conversations with God, "Even Hitler went to heaven." And I believe this is true. Try to think about it, as evil as it all was, as someone trying to show ourselves to us, to show the insanity of war and human indifference and suffering. It did not work, not really in a truly effective way. The looters are still looting, the news is full of fear and loathing, and there is still ethnic cleansing happening right this moment. Doesn't God care? Not really. There is nothing we can really do to hurt our real self, unless of course you look at it only through human earthly eyes. From this limited view we are victims of it all, recipients of a stream of happenstance and plagued by illness, famine, earthquakes. You are not your body any more than a radio playing Beethoven is Beethoven. If you took the radio apart, Beethoven is not in there. Likewise, you are not really in there either. We are broadcasting from somewhere else, creating and holding the Dream, the Timeline for our purposes of learning and acting out every possible thing we can, even being handicapped and dealing with tragedy. Would we really learn anything if we were not challenged? Would we have evolved? Just my two cents worth. It may seem harsh, but I truly belive we create it all just as we would have it. Great Light, Thomas

Hi Thomas , surely our progression has a soul means to do no evil then those souls that are doing evil surely there progression forward is halted untill all evil thoughts are removed.

SHSS wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 9:05pm:

Reach wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 3:08pm: Hi and Good Day All, i have been doing a number of reading of different books and the conclusion of most of the books seen to say the same thing ( That we choose our next life and of coarse our parents ). I have a slight problem with this - now is an example that is happening in my life. I had a date this weekend with a friend of my sisters. A woman with a heart of gold , is kind and has gentle has a lamb . Now this particular woman has had some to say the least very bad relationships ie been battered by her partner both physically and mentally. Now i for one can not understand why a person would want to choose a life like that. But even if that person did choose that life for a particular reason , the person who did the abusing did he now choose a life so that he could create misery and others. Did that person waste a life just to help another progress. Not so sure. Surely when one is born into a new life that life must be determined by the previous life one lived. Live a good life increases your spiritual development. We have terms like cause and effect , freewill , karma and all of this must have Welcome to the forum Reach. some bearing on our next life. We are born , learn and return until we have reached a level of spiritual development that keeps us in the spiritual realms. Or do we choose the life but not the circumstances ie choose the parents and were and when but our freewill determines the outcome. But if someone is so bad does that person not need retribution for the misery that he or she has to bring on others. I mean people like Hitler does that person yes we know when he passes over goes to the lower astral planes but does someone like him be limited to the type of life he can live. Some books say that people who suffer here are those that were bad in there last life. There seens to be alot of conflicting reports on what happens when one moves from the phyiscal to the astral to the spritual.Please help has im confused with a number of these points. Welcome to the forum Reach. What always amazes me is how so many people will throw out religion and rightfully so, IMO.  They find out they have been fed a bunch of controlling bunk and then they will pick up new-age books, and believe anything they read.  I guess we don't learn too easy.  This is why I want to find things out for myself.  Then I will check with others. A little true story: I had not seen my cousin since we were little kids and she found me on the internet.  She could not wait to start in on how many times she had been married and how many loves she had and each and every one of them had beaten her.  She played pitiful to the max and was quite proud of how horrid her life had been and she went on and on about these horrid men. I asked her if she had seen anything odd about the fact that she was always drawing these sort of men into her life.  Could she possibly have something to do with it? She could not hear me through her tears and stories of woe.  I had not seen someone in my entire life who enjoyed suffering so much.  She clung to her misery as if her very life depended on it. To make a long story short, I had never met such a hateful vengeful person in my life and could not get far enough away. Hope this makes sense,   :) Love, SHSS

Hi SHSS , the Universal Law Of Attraction

Hi Reach

Law of Attraction, yes I believe so.  And for a long time, I wondered what was in me that attracted her into my life, as short as our interaction was.  I found out that I had a lot of old family business to deal with.

Books:  Robert Monroe's trilogy
           Bruce Moen's four afterlife series books
           Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass, (honestly)

With these books, you can learn how to access your own knowledge.  Meditation is the best way, IMO, and these books give some good ideas about that.  Also, OSHO has an excellent book on meditation.

Love and Best Wishes,
SHSS   :)

Tgeks: "You say "surely" there is some justice and karma, and some sort of hierarchy of good and evil over there. There is not. As Neale Donald Walsch wrote in Book 1 of Conversations with God, "Even Hitler went to heaven." And I believe this is true. Try to think about it, as evil as it all was, as someone trying to show ourselves to us, to show the insanity of war and human indifference and suffering. It did not work, not really in a truly effective way. The looters are still looting, the news is full of fear and loathing, and there is still ethnic cleansing happening right this moment. Doesn't God care? Not really. There is nothing we can really do to hurt our real self, unless of course you look at it only through human earthly eyes. From this limited view we are victims of it all, recipients of a stream of happenstance and plagued by illness, famine, earthquakes."



I don't agree with what Tgecks wrote above. There is so much evidence which is non-fundamentalist in nature which shows that in some way we basically continue to be what we are during physical life after we die.  This is why some spirits end up in the lower realms after they die. Tgecks himself wrote about the existence of such realms on a previous thread he wrote.

Adolph Hitler didn't do what he did to serve a greater good. He did so for self serving reasons. Regarding his providing a lesson to the World, obviously the lesson didn't work, because people continue to do terrible things to each other. Consider the millions of Tibetans China has recently murdered. Regarding Walsch's statement that God doesn't care, "Hogwash!" Even if this World isn't the ultimate reality, suffering is suffering while a person experiences it. God no more wants to see people suffer because of the things a person like Adolph Hitler did, than he wants to see a little girl suffer because she is forced into prostitution.

Even today there are people who commit race oriented crimes against others, partly because of Adolph Hitler's so called lesson. I'm speaking of people such as Nazis, skinheads and KKK members. The sad truth is that the spirit World has to keep sending souls into tough incarnations "not" because the spirit World wants to but because people in this World keep creating tough incarnations. For example, a father who has a daughter he will molest. I believe that Walsch really insults God when he claims that God is an uncaring being who could care less that his children suffer. Would any loving parent be so callous because of a bunch of philosophical double talk?

Here lies the danger of a book such as ACIM. I thought I was quiet on this matter because disscussions on the course didn't work out well in the past. I'm not saying it doesn't have anything good to say, but it also tends to give people the idea that they don't have to worry about the World because nothing we experience is real.  Say that to a kid who gets burned terribly in an explosion in Iraq and can't find the medical help he needs. When I read ACIM I found that it had a brainwashing effect. One night I had a dream where at the end a man vigorously shook me and asked: "Why did you do it, why did you do it? Why did you allow yourself to get brainwashed again?" I've prayed to God and Christ a number of times and asked if ACIM came from Christ, and each time with a symbolic visual message I was told "No."

Again, I'm not saying that ACIM doesn't have anything good to say, but certainly it isn't infallible. If it gets us to the point where we dismiss the suffering of others as unreal, it is misleading us. ACIM is similar to Advaita Vedanta in the way it can cause a person to be indifferent.  I've found that spiritual groups based on the teachings of Advaita Vendanta tend to isolate themselves from the rest of the World and commit all of their resources to the group. Often these are loving people who could've made positive contributions to the World.

I had a dream one night. First I was shown that we create our own reality. Then I was shown Adolph Hitler in a room all by himself that was filled with cobwebs. Obviously this was a way of showing that he wasn't placed into a hell by a God who punishes. Rather, when he gets to the point where he is willing to admit to himself the harm and suffering he caused to "many" people and experience the suffering they experienced, he's going to have a lot of very painful Soul searching to go through.  Until a Soul becomes honest enough to do so, it won't be able to progress towards the light. There is also the matter of the soul searching the Souls Hitler influenced in a negative way will have to go through.

One night I had an experience where a light being showed me how he experiences this World. This being didn't identify himself, but going by past experiences, I believe it was Christ.  This experience showed me how much suffering a being such as Christ is aware of. Light beings don't turn their backs on us when we suffer in various ways.  It causes them great pain to see what we go through. Things need to change in this World. The suffering that exists for many won't go away by pretending that it doesn't exist.  Until we get to the point where we love our neighbor to an extent where their suffering becomes our suffering, I don't believe we should dismiss their suffering as an illusion. If you put the cart before the horse you get no where.  

Surely no one is born evil , no one is born a raciest , rapist , murder . Its by ones choice were one wants to progress or not. Robert Mugabe didn't start his life saying that he wanted his people to suffer he became that person. His ego stood in his way resulting in the man he is today. Life is full of choices and most of the time not easy ones especially with the pressure one has from others. In the words of George Lucas - There is the Dark side and the Light side one chooses which side to progress to.And if those choices are wrong then more incarnations are needed.

Thomas,

Neale Walsch has a very highly developed imagination!! You always quote from other sources dont you have a personal original position?


Quote:

You say "surely" there is some justice and karma, and some sort of hierarchy of good and evil over there. There is not. As Neale Donald Walsch wrote in Book 1 of Conversations with God, "Even Hitler went to heaven." And I

Hitler decidedly did not go to heaven, in heaven, all minds are open to one another by telepathy and this reprobate depraved mind is not allowed to pollute the Cosmic mind until it is purified.

In my NDE I saw Hitler in a hell like realm where he had to experience all the pain, sorry, desperation, desolation, despair, horror  and hopelessness and terror of woman and men, having their beloveds wives, husbands,  their children snatched from them and thrown alive into blazing furnaces because they had run out of poison gas. Of course this brief account does not come infinitely close to descibing the mind of this rebrobate monster. The great general Patton and man hardened by the horrors of war vomited and wept when he saw the horrors of Hitlers death camp This base beast does absoluely not reside in heaven!!!


We are responsible for our actions both good and bad because we are in the battle of life to advance or regress down or upward if you like We are given a free will and we must account for it to God . Do you really think that God or the Mandela of advanced souls are just going to pat him lightly on his backside saying “you bad bad naughty naughty little boy”, you should have not committed these unspeakable acts of depravity but we love you anyway because you were fond of your German Shepard dog.

Oh!! by the way I would not be writing this post if I had lived in Germany at the time of Hitler, you see my mother was Jewish, Zidersaski was her maiden name. They lived of the Polish border and had to flee the approaching Soviet army, also headed by another despot Stalin.

Hitler would have sent me and the rest of my beautiful innocent family to burn and be poisened in his very efficient gas chambers. So you can believe this unspeakble depraved monster is in heaven, but I know he is not.

Come on

Alan  

Respecting those of you who have other views of these, I must admit that I still have difficulty with the "maps" provided to me of an afterlife with actual "hells" for those who have done "bad" things.

I cannot escape the thought that our visions of heavens and hells exist simply because we want them to exist. Possibly, we feel better when we imagine the torment of someone who has "mortally" offended us.

But, just as there can be isolation cells for unruly prisoners, perhaps "hell" is simply "another place" for a soul. Pause to think about that.

How would any of us know what compassion is, if we didn't know what suffering is too? There are times when each of us  is more or less "in tune" with our compassionate self...times when we can feel more deeply, and also times when we are "cut off" from our emotions....

I see all this reflected in our afterlife experiences, as reported on this board.

Perhaps the afterlife God had in mind was more like an ocean wave...we all catch the wave together and ride it in to the shore. Everyone goes, wow, that was crazy wild fun! Somebody gets sucked under and the Great "Life Saver" LifeGuard must leap into the water to rescue the drowning surfer. "Will he live?" everyone says, gathered around the figure on the sand. Says someone, "What has he done to deserve to live?"

God says, "Does it matter? I've got a couple of minutes to do this thing, so do you want to stand around talking or what?"

That was good blink, really good.  I'll share my version which I hope doesn't bring down the wrath of the forum; that wouldn't be much fun.

Let us say that we are going to put together the biggest most interesting blockbuster movie that we can.  We want all the astral beings sitting on those astral benches sucking down that astral popcorn to be watching breathlessly until the end.  No boredom allowed if possible.  Well, we are going to have villains, monsters, vengeful, hateful characters as well as good.  How else will the watchers have hope for the good guys?
If we made a movie or experience where everyone sat around loving each other and that is all, it might not get very good ratings.
Ok, when the movie is over, the actors take off their costumes, their hate or whatever role they played, they are paid greatly, adored for their part in the play and all go home to rest and float around in their well deserved castles.

Vindictiveness is vindictiveness no matter how you dress it up.  (hope I spelled that right)  And also a state of mind.

Love.
SHSS  
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/7801/arpa2gv.gif

It isn't a matter of vindictiveness. I help extensively with retrievels and I don't care who I help.

Once a spirit gets to the point where it decides to live according to love, isn't it quite natural that it will want to look at its entire life honestly? If the answer is yes, what would a spirit such as Adolph Hitler go through when he sees how many people he hurt? Whether it seems fair or not, perhaps he has reached this point, he's going to experience a lot of grief, guilt, shame and remorse when he sees how much he has hurt people. The effects of his wrongdoings still continue today. Has anybody read what people say about life reviews during their near death experiences? It is really painful when one faces the harm they inflicted on others. Has anybody faced something they feel guilty about during this life? Was it pleasant to do so? It is interesting that what Alan experienced during his NDE below is similar to the message I received through a dream.

"In my NDE I saw Hitler in a hell like realm where he had to experience all the pain, sorry, desperation, desolation, despair, horror  and hopelessness and terror of woman and men, having their beloveds wives, husbands,  their children snatched from them and thrown alive into blazing furnaces because they had run out of poison gas."

Hi Reach,

You asked did 'heavenly family' refer to the relatives you have on Earth----

;) Dear soul, no. I know what you mean.

Our host Bruce Moen calls the group of souls we're related to as souls 'a Disk Family.'

There could be many other reasons we have our temporary earth families--various lessons to be learned through them.
But the souls you're most compatible with, your home base, are in the afterlife.
Thank goodness, eh ?!

Congratulations on posting such an invigorating topic!

Bets

Recoverer, I think there was a big misunderstanding here.  Thank you for pointing it out to me.  I was jumping ahead to when we all join back.  I skipped over the part were we hurt terribly for our wrongs.  I know that in this life, if I hurt someone, I will feel terrible about it.  I would not want to be someone like Hitler or Jeffery Dahmer and have to face myself.
I hope you do not think I was calling you vindictive for I was not, nor anyone else on this site.

Love,
SHSS   http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/7801/arpa2gv.gif

P.S. The harp is for betson.

Thank you for understanding SHSS.  :)

I believe we are all inately divine, and it can be rather difficult to face whatever mistakes we might've made while we are here. I don't believe light beings have judgmental thoughts towards those who do make mistakes because they understand that mistakes are often made when spirits incarnate into this World.



SHSS wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 1:21pm:

Recoverer, I think there was a big misunderstanding here.  Thank you for pointing it out to me.  I was jumping ahead to when we all join back.  I skipped over the part were we hurt terribly for our wrongs.  I know that in this life, if I hurt someone, I will feel terrible about it.  I would not want to be someone like Hitler or Jeffery Dahmer and have to face myself. I hope you do not think I was calling you vindictive for I was not, nor anyone else on this site. Love, SHSS   http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/7801/arpa2gv.gif P.S. The harp is for betson.

betson wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 1:06pm:

Hi Reach, You asked did 'heavenly family' refer to the relatives you have on Earth---- ;) Dear soul, no. I know what you mean. Our host Bruce Moen calls the group of souls we're related to as souls 'a Disk Family.' There could be many other reasons we have our temporary earth families--various lessons to be learned through them. But the souls you're most compatible with, your home base, are in the afterlife. Thank goodness, eh ?! Congratulations on posting such an invigorating topic! Bets

Hi Bets , thanks for clearing that up phew got me worried for a moment  ;). This particular subject or the life beyond has fasinated me for sometime and it is great to have a site with so many people from all corners of the world chatting about a subject that one day we shall all face. Nice to know that there are a few other South Africans on the site has well.

Regards Reach

People,

I don’t want to labor my point to the position that it becomes offensive. But the FACT is that souls than have committed depravity continuously in life like Hitler decidedly do reside in hell like realms of "their own making". God does not put anyone there they put themselves there by their misuse of the precious free will that god has given as all to progress back towards the light.

But here is another factor you should consider carefully please!! As I am sure you all know when we die, we have at first the tunnel experience and then in most cases are met by thee Being of Light

Then what happens is a “Life Review” in this ones whole life and I mean whole life is played off sometimes in apparent great speed and in others in slow motion, moment be moment that can seem like an eternity.

THE LIFE REVIEW

SUBJECTIVE ENCOURAGEMENT AND ADMONISHMENT

In this Life Review, every act and event of ones life is seen and relived in three-dimensional reality. In fact what is happening is that all the memories from the time you were a baby in your mothers tummy until the moment of your death is gone over one by one and usually gentle admonishment of wrongs and praise for good actions are given by the Being of light.

OBJECTIVE ENCOURAGEMENT OR ADMONISHMENT

You feel the happiness and joy of all the people you have helped and not just this only also the knock on effect , which might amaze you how one nice act of one small person can change history. The reality of it is more blessed to give than receive is brought home. Forgiveness by you of someone who has hurt or harmed you is shown as a great act the soul


Now please muse long and carefully about the Hitler and his fellow despots. In their Life Review they have to live through in "minute detail" every hurt pain, sorrow, loss, homelessness,of the death camps, the wars they started in the search for power that only belongs to God. The unspeable experiments the carried out on death camp victims, the horror of a mother seeing her little child snatched from her and thrown into a burning furnace, the rape of young woman up to the point of death by his soldiers in so called State Brothels (Young beautiful Jewish girls, the were considered non human but could still be used like animal) ON  AND ON ADINFINITUM

The actions of every subordinent, every person all the way up and all the way down the ladder of authority was accountable  as personal acts by Hitler himself, by the Being or God" if you like..  he had to undergo a life review, with each victim, some fifty five million. Then to top it all the knock on effect all the way through history has to be experienced by this beast until it is purged from its inhumanity. In real linear time God can stretch a moment out into eterninty if he likes

You see with God linear time does not exist so Hitler spend millions of years in his subjective time learning his lesson,  unlike the easy loving life review the rest of us will have. I know this as I have had just this experience during my near death experience and God is not a respecter of persons, what is good for the gander is good the geese so to speak. "What we reap we will sow what goes around comes around"

Read Mein Kampf (My testimony) and you will read that Hitler knew exactly what he wanted and what he wanted to do. How many beautiful young American boys had to die because of this evil beast in human disgiuse? God read this out to him word for word so that there could be no mistake.

The great advocate for our souls had no grounds to defense this person before the ultimate good and just judge namely God. The prosecution went on for centauries I think.

All souls are Divine come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note I fixed some key errors!!
alan

Hi reach and all  I have always beleived because of my own experience of life,that suffering is sometimes to do with negative karma from a life before because if you were bad in a former life,then i can say from suffering through my own life has taught me how to love those people so much less fortunate than me and i feel so strongly that i'm here to spread love and goodness in the world and that is what i'm always trying to do,so probably in my former life i was selfish ,unkind ,and thought of only wealth and had not a lot of love and respect for my fellow man,so i have found love in my heart through my own suffering ,so i'm gradually putting karma right from a previous life.

Hitler to me ,i cannot comprehend how such a soul like him can be born in this world,i mean why did he come on this earth and cause so much suffering and most of it was toward the jewish race and ,i mean Jesus was jewish and suffered on the cross to save us all,so why was Hitler allowed to come here and persecute the jewish people,what ever deal like that could be allowed to made in the spiritworld before he was born is something i find it hard to come to terms with and why towards the jewish people,so what was hitler all about,what was it all for,to prove what or learn what,because i cant find the answer in my heart to something as evil as Hitler.

PS I think your picture is great SHSS.

Love and God bless   love juditha

wrote on May 29^th, 2008 at 2:21am:

...Hitler to me ,i cannot comprehend how such a soul like him can be born in this world,i mean why did he come on this earth and cause so much suffering and most of it was toward the jewish race and ,i mean Jesus was jewish and suffered on the cross to save us all,so why was Hitler allowed to come here and persecute the jewish people,what ever deal like that could be allowed to made in the spiritworld before he was born is something i find it hard to come to terms with and why towards the jewish people,so what was hitler all about,what was it all for,to prove what or learn what,because i cant find the answer in my heart to something as evil as Hitler. PS I think your picture is great SHSS. Love and God bless   love juditha

It is difficult to comprehend....but when we notice our own sorrow, allowing it to be, moving through our hearts to feel it fully...at the "other side" of that sorrow is love. We cannot let go of our sadness until we feel it. Perhaps that is how Jesus was able to say, Love your enemies. He knew that we could do it.

Recover, I agree with you whole heartedly about us having to play a role in making this world better. We can’t just sit back and watch others suffer because “their suffering is not real”.  As caring human beings, we need to counteract the ever increasing indifference in our society.

There are too many positions on the topic of Afterlife… and ultimately, no one knows the truth until it is their time to die. Instead of trying to cling on to every literal word from these books, why not try to find the common thread from these various view points? I suspect all religion believe that Unconditional Positive Love is the central theme of the spirit world.  So, while living on this Earthly plane, why don’t we just follow that one simple, elegant rule until it is our turn to know the truth through death? I suspect living by PUL will help our individual lives be more rewarding and hence help make our society better on a whole.

That is just my two cents…

I agree with you Linn. :)

from Wikipedia:

Godwin's Law is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: "As an Internet-based discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

How quickley you change,yesterday you were all for forgiving,now you are not.When jesus said he must be taken and die on the cross,peter said no lord we will not let it happen.And jesus said get behind me saten.you must forgive

:) To Linh's point on opinions. When we discuss views of reality it's maybe worth bearing in mind that if we can rise above relatively minor differences of opinion and interpretation  that 'the perennial philosophy' (or the broad territory we tend to explore here) has in various shades and forms been around for a very long time.

Here's a list of esoteric spiritual traditions (those proposing that the route to God is inwards, and by the raising consciousness) I extracted (just for the hell of it) from a book this morning:

Atlantis?
Mesopotamia
Egyptians
Hermeticism
Vedanta
Yoga
Taoism
Buddhism
Zoroastrianism
Neoplatonism
Essenes
Esoteric Christianity/Gospel of Thomas
Kabbalah
Sufism
Christian Kabbalah
Gnosticism
Catharism
Some Western systems of magic
Alchemy
Homeopathy
Christian Mysticism
Rosicrucianism
Freemasonry
Amercian & other Native
Surrealism
Theosophy
Aquarian New Age
New Age

These are only some that by an accident of history have been named, there's been many, many more views and paths that have developed around individuals but not been. Many of these too are huge, and contain or have contained multiple streams within them. e.g. Buddhism

A superficial reading of any of these may lead to the view that some are very different from others. The world is in fact full of even well-meaning followers of -isms who feel precisely that. A deeper and more accommodating reading however (at least where I've looked) tends to surface the thought that while the language, imagery and emphasis can vary quite a bit, that it's really all just the same view expressed in differing ways, or adjusted as a result of differences in individual emphasis. Which latter may well have been responses to the needs of the time.

The 'big picture' that runs through it all remains constant - if we can open enough to drop our need to discriminate. Do we really have the ability to figure this stuff out to the point that we can say with certainty that the other guy's shade of emphasis is wrong? Much more likely that the old ego and need to be right is raising it's head again.

Quite apart from creating a likelihood of getting hung up on beliefs and rigid interpretations of experience, rigid thinking is anyway pretty much universally  regarded as an impediment to spiritual opening.

It's sobering to look at the length of this list, and the very extended time over which it's existed - what can we we possibly say or speculate that's not been said before???

Another perspective that suggests that we'd be better to not get too hung up on the idea we 'know it all' is the way that we seem to unconsciously get up to all sorts of stuff. (including retrievals re. Alysia and Staci's recent posts) We tend to focus our entire sense of 'self' in what we are consciously aware of.  (especially body, intellect and external reality)

Yet all the signs are that we're operating with only very piecemeal data, with very limited sense making capability in what is only one very narrow and particular view of even this reality. (our beliefs as to 'what is real' prevent us from seeing a truer picture)

That's not to say that a degree of intellectual sense making is not useful as a means of avoiding unnecessary fear, perplexity or running astray. To help us past our individual blocks. But it's surely in the end much more about transforming ourselves by working day to day with meditation, contemplation and whatever other tools are available to deliver an evolving insight - than it is about winning any argument.

There's very clearly a point beyond which excessive identification with beliefs and opinions becomes an impediment to spiritual progress - to seeing things as they are, and consequently becoming capable of living through wisdom and compassion. Or love, or God's will  - however you like to put it.

I'm very convinced that one very important part of the journey is for us to actively look for ways to accommodate differing views and attitudes, to try to loosen enough get beyond language, emphasis and looking for differences.

By this I don't mean the sort of closing and dumbing down that's involved in the usual ego driven  process of compromise - where both parties competitively bargain to give away as little as they can, and in doing so end up with almost nothing. (try the Aesop's fable about the old monkey settling the argument between two younger ones over the piece of cheese they are arguing over - he progressively nibbles more and more away in evening it up into two equal pieces. They go away satisfied, but not seeing that he ate most of the cheese.)

I mean open and becoming more flexible, so that in the end it dawns on us that what we're encountering are differing elements of the mythical elephant hidden in the jungle.

When we encounter a stand alone view or input that seems not to fit and comes from a credible source the game is not to reject or cut it down as a result of it as screwing up our nice watertight model. It's instead to put it to one side. Not to forget it, but to instead to let it simmer until eventually (as happens most of the time for me) inspiration dawns and we see where it fits.

Where it maybe even requires a fundamental rejig of our model if we're to reach for a higher truth.

Mind made spiritual models can only be that. Tentatively held and ever changing methods to help the mind make conscious sense of something that's ultimately unknowable....

;D PS Brock -  That Godwin's Law hits the nail on the head...

Vajra,

As I've said before, I am not here to over blow your ego, but this is the 'no. 1' best post I have read on this forum yet.  May I be so bold as to break the patriarchy a bit more and add Wiccan?
My goodness, I dream of the day when all dogma is seen for what it is and we can all accept one another regardless of whether we see eye to eye on every little dream world word.
We are all part of the whole and not one of us has all the absolute truth, maybe for oneself, but not for all.

PUL,

SHSS

excellent thread folks..I must return when I get more time. SSHS, I agree with you wholeheartedly, your last words of wisdom.

Look what you've done, Reach!   ;)

You've joined together a wide range of points of view, each in their own manner of speaking, to deal with their strongly felt beliefs. This thread, including the people who've contributed to it by posting or leaving their energy as they read---this all is why I love this 'place' !

Love, Bets

Hi All , its been a pleasure to join a site like this where no one judges and are open to others opinions , isnt it just a pity that our so called political leaders can not act in the same way has Vajra post surely the world would be a far better place and not just for those in the postions of power.

I live by a simple moto in life " Treat others has you would like others to treat you"

Regards to All.

Hitler is in a BST. it is where he believed the truth lies. possibly in his station, there are only blue-eyed blondes walking around. the idea he had of this race being superior over Jews. then one day he may see it was a hollow idea. a hollow heaven. as he begins to question his beliefs, life, or guides will step in and educate him that there is more to it than who is superior and who is inferior. It is about true compassion, not ego miscalculations. I'm sure Thomas understands this, but posting here, we cannot put ALL that we have learned, all that we believe. Not enough time, not enough words can bring what time, a lifetime brings to us in knowing through our individual experiences, whether we are leaders or followers.
_____
From Disappearance of The Universe Yeshua has returned through the pages of a book. many of those who label themselves Christians await his physical form return. this is because they so identify with the physical body as the only reality that they cannot conceive there are many spiritual works out there within book form that go far beyond the biblical forms, where the many interpretations are simply the signs of that particular time frame.
Now civilization is ready for something new. To look within. To stop looking on the outside for the truth. The bible is like looking at history. Now we look within for what is happening to our own belief system, and noticing we are programmed to react according to our own belief systems.

Reach, by blaming the politicians for the state of the world, you have simply found a scapegoat to put all the sins of the world unto. it's another dualistic mind frame. a trap. either the politicians are also our brothers, or they are a bunch of aliens come to do us in. we need to move to different thinking rather than blaming.
It would be the way of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. therefore, if you were in office, in politics, would you want to be blamed for the entire world's problems by another on a public forum?
certainly you wouldn't. You would take charge of what you believe this way by not passing the buck, you would forgive, and allow higher thought to guide you into cooperating with forces of good coming our way, a balancing of power and a religuishment of selfish enterprises of power mongering, which is the voice of the ego. and we all have an ego of varying degree which thinks this way. listen to the voice of Love. it's in everybody. thats what doing unto others means, by your thoughts of them.
_____

Here's a bit from Disappearance: Pursah and Arten appear physically to Gary Renard, author a series of visits of 17, over a period of time of 9 years and they were sent by your friend and mine, Yeshua, and as I said, it's believable when you see the content, although you have to listen to spirit for understanding. Pursah was Thomas of the bible, Arten was another disciple. there are two voices in each head, due to the split, the separation we did here on this planet which makes it seem as if God is absent. one voice is the ego, one is spirit which enjoins us to our oneness.
The ego always wishes to stand out, to be a correcting force for others. the spirit enjoins, to show the ego has no substance, and all it's good works it would point to are worthless on the other side.

When you all get home, the committe of your disc members only want to know one thing "how much did you love? Did you help just one person and not expect a return on that giving?
tell us whom you lifted from despair. Do not tell us how important you were and how you gained fame.
_____
It was discussed within Disappearance of the Universe JC did not plan on establishing a religion which has gone awry by so many different viewpoints. It was then necessary for him to channel this material to help us awaken from the dream thru ACIM, as well he channels himself through whoever is willing and there are many willing vehicles for that job. Ask and you will be led to your appropriate reading materials, just especially for you and the position of your beliefs at present.
One thing J did say, that is correct, you can ask and receive. It never fails. try it.
_____

None of this is real. We are at home. we are only partially here, to mean we dream we are here, because our bodies are vehicles of consciousness, we come here to gather experiences, but our essences are at home, known as higher self if you wish to call it that. We are probes. We gather, we learn to love, we learn to speak our truth and take self responsibility for our own woes, not blaming ANYONE, nor any organization, nor even some devil figment. We are to become mature co-creators and the ego is what crashes here and it hurts. But even hurt goes away within PUL. We are to forgive the world, just as JC did, in order to gain more awareness of who we really are, forgiving is to release the woe to higher authority.
It is like having faith and courage and humbleness. It is to be nonjudgmental. It is to love God with all your heart, mind and soul. These are the sayings of J, that you are love, that you dream a nightmare here and you buy into the nightmare by not lending a hand to these dirty lowdown politicians like Hitler. If you can do a better job of leading a nation, go and do it.
don't expect them to lead you to heaven.
they're probably sitting in their kitchen scratching their head, and wondering if they have to kiss a baby today or what, in order to implement a law they just thought of. they are just like you and me, on a journey and they know not where the ending point is, except that death is certain.

here's a little of Disappearance: "The people of the world will never live in peace until the people of the world have inner peace.

ATTAIN INNER PEACE! sorry for the shout. but this is the goal of the Course. That each one gain inner peace. this peace acts to extend itself once it is attained.

230,000 forums discussing the radical idea of attaining peace of mind..through the teaching of ACIM.
Wouldn't you agree it's popular and we are tired of biblical stuff and who begot whom is of no interest to me. I am only interested in the sayings and the rotes attached to what this person who walked here once said. Very very little of JC is in the bible. therefore we have to study what is available to us and listen to our own guidance and trust it.

R, as you know we will never agree on this literature. It is quite silly to continue to say the same things to each other. All you are saying is your guides are right, and mine must be wrong then. that's like saying your dog is bigger than my dog. Has that ever worked before? Isn't it childish?
We must let our differences go, for it is just a power play in truth. my large ego against your large ego. I do not wish to prove you wrong. I extend only what I have to give, peace to you on your journey and whatever you wish.  I think what you are running from is death of the ego that goes here.

I was just thinking today, it's true all of us will kick off someday and be forgotten as the world continues. the changes that come, for most of us, we are not born leaders, neither do we have to be, to have a life here. we are ordinary people having an experience of life, and that of course includes the leaders, who misuse power, as well as the ones who tried to make life better for others.
they are written down in a book somewhere, and once in awhile somebody remembers them.

We need to get unattached to this world. It is not our true home. But that does not mean we do not continue whatever our work is in this world. It just means we can do our work more efficiently and with more enthusiasm because we know what the eventual outcome of the dream will be. perfect peace, and perfect love even as the masters achieved.

continuing: Inner peace and true strength are major goals of ACIM, but it has a unique way of accomplishing this within you. The world will change as a result of it (u will see this) but that is not what the Course is for.  it is also a challenge and will shake you down to the core of your being. You will sometimes hear people say the Course is simple, but you will seldom hear them say it is easy. The world will appear to change for you  because the Course handles the cause of everything, rather than effects. If you ask for understanding, u will receive it. the more you react to it's message with disbelief, the more that you know this is what you need to look at, why you react to it with disbelief. it is your ego telling you to throw away something uncomfortable.
this is the world of the ego J wanted to show us a way out of the kind of thoughts that keep us here. the ego can be taught to perceive correctly, but we can not kill our egos. we can work with them to get beyond the first voice that speaks, the ego speaks first with limited perception.

it's exciting to hear the voice of truth speak to you. it's a direct communion with God essence.

The former disiple of Yeshua, Thomas, speaks: There is one more saying I must explain because it has been the subject of speculation for the first 400 years of the gospels existence:
J asked me to come with him, and he took him, and withdrew, and spoke 3 sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends, they asked him, what did J say to you? Thomas answered If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me.
stoning was traditional punishment for blasphemy, although it wasn't used as much as you think.
J himself was never concerned for speaking blasphemy. the reason he told me (Thomas) not to speak these sayings was to protect me.
these are the 3 sayings he said to me that day.

You dream of a desert, where mirages are your rulers and tormentors, yet these images come from you. (we are making this world up, we are dreaming it)
Father did not make the desert, and your home is still with Him. (we are really still at home)
To Return, forgive your brother, for only then do you forgive yourself. (dont blame others for your troubles)
____

Essentially, to forgive your brother is the pathway to learn of PUL, and to release ourselves from continual bondage to life circumstances, as it reveals an eternal moment where the power lies, of life abundant through PUL. If we do not forgive, we return in order to exact justice from perceived wrongdoing. and this is called a cycle of lives.
we never become free souls then, to perpetuate this endless dream of an eye for an eye.
through the limited visions of the individual ego collective.

and yet we do need help to learn what forgiveness is. so we ask spirit for help in that. we cannot do it alone. we need each other's example, as to how to learn true forgiveness, which sets us free from our guilty minds. we all believe we are guilty of something. TG has said here a clue once, getting over what the ego tells you, that you are guilty of something and will be punished, is what we need to look at on a spiritual path back to our original beginnings. its not the mistakes we did we should concentrate on, but how we may proceed from this moment that counts.
It's a return to our beginning point.

the reason this world is not real, it's a dream, is because God would never create mayhem such as we have nor does he exact punishment. we wish to punish each other; it is us who created this world by shoving God out of it. We cannot look upon the face of God while we are still yet human, but we can practice releasing our hatred against those who believe differently than us, or have a different color of skin. the only thing we can really change is our own self.

and changing your own self has an effect on others.

in addition, we learn what it is we teach. We increase knowledge in our own selves by sharing it. this creates gratitude and it grows. It makes the way easier. we share this in common. You cannot know a great truth unless you put it into practice and test it. so expressing what you have learned is one way to share it and increase it. If it's not true, it will not grow as it does not enjoin. non truth falls flat on it's face and has no eternal life.

who and what we are is what we study. we teach each other. we allow each other to grow at their own rate of speed by keeping to the forgiveness principle, also an attitude of acceptance within faith is PUL.
ACIM says it cannot teach you the meaning of love, as that is beyond it's curriculum and for that, you must have an experience. ACIM is designed to remove the blocks in the mind which block the experience of love, which is behind everything and the basis of our being, each and every one, even Hitler. He "loved" his Mein Kampe, whatever, spelled wrong probably.

it was his creation. he thought he was some sort of mini god. how awful. we must learn from him how awful it is to discriminate an entire people as not worthy to live here. why can't we share the Earth with all peoples? we learned a little bit, not to be swayed by charismatic leaders led by the voice of their need for power and to play God.
as well Hitler had a strong type of anger inside of him. his people were intrigued by this what is called passion.
they stopped listening to the voice of the spirit. the voice of truth. They told the Jews, this is not your country. you have no country. then guess what happened later? The Jews began to build their own nation once more. See, there's plenty of room here on this old tired Earth. I'm at the least glad they have a home, even though it continues to be a place to fight for them. at least they were not all wiped out. theres a purpose. J was a Jew don't forget. and btw, it was not the Jews who put J out to death. It was the Romans. The Romans were particularly cruel natured I've heard and this seems logical as well. I would just say they were animalistic or young, alien type souls using this Earth for a training of how exactly to gain eternal life..by participating on a planet not made by God, where killing was a thrill to them. the more gore, the better the show. a good example of the ego running amuck and an attitude of eat, drink and be merry.

although no one is going to read this, I must write it nonetheless. for myself. the anger energy which motivated Hitler drove him unto his end. He would never find God. He would never surrender to Love's purpose. Anger is a powerful thing.
we use it against one another all the time. we become righteous. We demand others submit to our righteousness. We pay for our attitudes with the same measure of sorrow, as anger separates us from Love. We feel so right. we set out to prove it. the more you try to prove you are right, the more the opposite energy arises to prove it is right and it's just a stand off at the ok coral. another drama to enact.
anybody who arises as leader, and misuses his power could be Hitler returned. therefore the heart path must be listened to, where the ego has to gain to earn, it extends love. only this is what you want.
only the changes love makes on you is what you want.

never give a gift expecting a return. none of us are the whole of God. A return to the joy of living is what a Hitler would desire if he could conceive of it's possibility. I wish some of you would go see him, get the real scoop. without joy of living, I see no purpose for this planet.

it has a lot to do with J's true message, apart from biblical expounding, and the nature of compassion and PUL energy.

Thomas TGecks, thank you for your post. The material will take off, however, hundreds of years of false teaching and misinterpreted biblical stuff is what has to be undone also, or pointed out and people have to give up their ego posturing and self righteousness, or just say "I don't know, but I will study, I will grow, I will know someday."

you do a fine job describing ACIM, just that one part about Hitler having a good time, I don't think we can buy that right now, but I can ask the holy spirit to help me forgive what I would be holding a grudge against anybody.
I'm looking forward to an enlightened age with no need of leaders. but I'll probably have another body if I decide to return. truly, I'm with Juditha on this one. I'd rather not re-enter the dream of this world if there's still people here who think they have superior truths and need to put down another's beliefs as inferior to theirs, and this is particularly insidious behavior to act this way "in the name of loving you."

Dont need this kind of love. thanks anyway.

[quote author=Reach link=1211828911/0#0 date=1211828910 Now i for one can not understand why a person would want to choose a life like that. But even if that person did choose that life for a particular reason , the person who did the abusing did he now choose a life so that he could create misery and others. Did that person waste a life just to help another progress. Not so sure.

Surely when one is born into a new life that life must be determined by the previous life one lived. Live a good life increases your spiritual development. We have terms like cause and effect , freewill , karma and all of this must have some bearing on our next life. We are born , learn and return until we have reached a level of spiritual development that keeps us in the spiritual realms.

Or do we choose the life but not the circumstances ie choose the parents and were and when but our freewill determines the outcome. But if someone is so bad does that person not need retribution for the misery that he or she has to bring on others.

I mean people like Hitler does that person yes we know when he passes over goes to the lower astral planes but does someone like him be limited to the type of life he can live. Some books say that people who suffer here are those that were bad in there last life. There seens to be alot of conflicting reports on what happens when one moves from the phyiscal to the astral to the spritual.Please help has im confused with a number of these points.[/quote]

hey there Reach..I hear you. I have been nudged by spirit to respond to your post for several days, however I was ignoring the nudge... :) because I've got my excited nose in another book and other things I won't go into.

In my book Roadsigns i speak about molestation briefly, but only from my perspective of why I was in the molester's life. I've learned that all of us are One. we only think we are separated from one another because it appears we have these individual bodies. the body is nothing but an organic vehicle for spirit. In my life's plan I discovered I had ties to my family relationships. there was one I sponsored. as it was called by a friend.
I sponsored the molester. in other words I was going to help him gain control of his lust he had for children. While I was involved in the relationship I knew I was supposed to help him, but I had to call upon assistance, by talking to God, as I imagined I was safe, I was always with this concept of God although I couldn't tell you why I believed in Love and justice to prevail, I was willing to listen to the still small voice when I prayed.
I determined I learned how to pray from previous lives. I saw glimpses that we travel here until we become fully enlightened then we no longer need to return.
the soul set up was if I could "bring him in" deliver him from lust, then it would prove that forgiveness was a valid working thing on this Earth, as to redeem him, just like the Christ model, I would need to lay aside judgement of him, through this forgiveness procedure.
when it happened this way, of a sudden, he would have dominion over his own soul. I was told he was ready for this redemption, that he would go through a period where, this thing called repentence was ripe in his soul, but he need assistance, that I could do that for him, by demonstrating forgiveness.

but I didn't do it all by myself. we cannot forgive by ourselves. so I call it spirit, and in A Course in Miracles, the language is Holy Spirit.
This is how we dervive comfort is from spirit, when we go through these experiences, because we think we are here, in flesh. we are not really all here. it's is like a movie set. When we get home we see we as Mind projected ourselves into the movie of solid reality.

and sometimes we just come here to pick someone up and get them back home because they have gone astray and they need help.
although the man is not the entire reason I incarnated. but I have been told I am much celebrated in the heavens the day I gave his honor back to him and changed his life by forgiving him.
just love was all was demonstrated that day, through me, as I was being used by spirit.
also to demonstrate to myself I could do like Jesus did, I could be with that kind of love also.

J always told me we would do miracles of healing. healing someone from lust is the same as healing someone of a disease that they cannot overcome by their self.

this man never touched another child and now he will be a better person in his next life to have conquered it. also Nanner tells a similar story to mine, so I know this happens, I know I'm not the only one who lives a life to help someone else.

to answer briefly some of your other questions, keep in mind, if I may suggest this, that we need to condense our many questions down to one or two..as it's confusing these threads sometimes. the main question to have is who and what are we.
time doesn't seem to matter because it appears there is no beginning, nor ending. and that is what time is; a measurement.

so u ask why would someone sacrifice their life, or part of their life for another's welfare? that's not a question for us, that's a question to ask J maybe. maybe because of his love?
personally I conceived that each of us has this love inside us deep down, that we have great capacity to extend it as well, and some many lives, some maybe, like our ascended masters, they got home before we did. for me, I knew this man in another life. he appears as a young soul, just learning to gain control of sexual appetite. all criminals are not young souls. I believe that the key to understanding this story is that he wished to return to a state where he was pure, and innocent, he did choose also to be "saved." He had a conscious memory when he himself was a child, in our true homes. he loved children but expressed it with a weapon. the body can be used as a weapon here..God did not want us to suffer through these things.
on the higher levels, karma to take on is a choice to enter the drama, we are always searching to do miracles, which miracles are only making something heal faster than it would in linear time.

I was an Indian in another life, this man and I used to argue about the fate of the babies which he did not wish to see die, and so he made some wrong choices. He sold me to a white man to get me off his back. all of this drama, it no longer matters. my job is done.
I finally got my point across to this younger soul whom I knew would understand, women, and children are not to be used or sold. that was the point. So did I have a choice to come in?

considering that he is just a tiny part of my life, it's all the other things that happened are more important to me. I have done my job for both my parents and him.

what should occur, if it's your last life, you should leave very satisfied feeling inside. If you don't have that satisfied feeling, you may end up planning another life.

now finally, I know who you! are. lol.   I mean I know your real name.  some years back I took you to this molester, I introduced you to him. You had a confused look on your face as you listened to him talk. at one point I told him, "I don't think he's here for you to entertain him, as this man was quite the talker, but he always talked of himself. you wanted to understand very badly our relationship. all I can say is it's been worked out. it has closure. I think every relationship eventually will have such closure if we have faith.
yes, I chose this life and my parents, with help in planning from higher guidance.

my dreams show me that time doesn't matter here, what's gonna happen has already happened.
we just repeat history here. someday we will all be back home, and wonder what a crazy mad idea to come here in the first place, as it's much more love filled on the other side.

you know, like gates of eden. it's our true home. love to you as usual

Wow , LaffingRain those are some words you typed there and i don't mean the length  :)

Thank you for sharing that with us.

Some of the books that i am reading at the moment include Our Ulitmate Reality - Adrian Cooper in fact i get a news letter every week and have just got my hands on The Science of being by Eugene Fersen. I determined to learn more has time goes on.

Reach wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 2:48pm:

Wow , LaffingRain those are some words you typed there and i don't mean the length  :) Thank you for sharing that with us. Some of the books that i am reading at the moment include Our Ulitmate Reality - Adrian Cooper in fact i get a news letter every week and have just got my hands on The Science of being by Eugene Fersen. I determined to learn more has time goes on.

Hi Reach, last night I had a powerful good feeling talk with someone and we went into a library within a school area briefly. I saw books climbing to the wall. I thought this person was you.

then I came here and you are telling me about your books. so now I am going to go enter the details in my dream log about it. the books titles look good to me. but I haven't read those particular ones. maybe you can tell us if you liked them later. :)

Alysia said (While speaking of Dissapearance of a Universe and ACIM), "as you know we will never agree on this literature. It is quite silly to continue to say the same things to each other. All you are saying is your guides are right, and mine must be wrong then. that's like saying your dog is bigger than my dog. Has that ever worked before? Isn't it childish?
We must let our differences go, for it is just a power play in truth. my large ego against your large ego. I do not wish to prove you wrong. I extend only what I have to give, peace to you on your journey and whatever you wish.  I think what you are running from is death of the ego that goes here."

R(ecovorer) responds:  I have Dissapearance of a Universe. I believe the whole thing is a hoax that Gary Renard made up. There are many things within it that I don't agree with including its claim that ACIM comes from Christ. Like ACIM, it claims that God had nothing to do with the creation of this universe. This universe is just a big mistake. Check out what the book has to say about NDEs. I think on pg. 263. The book says that NDEs don't accurately depict what happens during death. It says that because of guilt and fear of God most people reincarnate shortly after death. They have to reincarnate thousands of times. I've read lots of NDEs, and it sure doesn't seem to me that people run into guilt and fear of God issues. Rather they have wonderful experiences of divine love. Issues that relate to guilt are often taken care of during a life review. They usually don't want to come back to this World but do so because of responsibilities they need to take care of such as their kids.  They never seem to come back and state that you have to become an enlightened being or you'll have to reincarnate over and over again. They simply say to live your life according to love.

As I've written before, I've prayed to Christ a number of times and I have always been told that ACIM doesn't come from Christ. I don't know why people get so hung up on the book. If they really want to receive guidance from Christ, WHY DON'T THEY PRAY TO HIM AND ASK FOR GUIDANCE?  It is as if they are afraid to do so. Not much commitment is required if you simply rely on a book.  You can pick and choose as much as you want. Unfortunately,  as I found with my self and with others, the book can have a brainwashing effect, even if it has some nice things to say now and then.  Anybody can say: "Forgive, forgive..."  

I believe that some people are afraid to question the validity of ACIM because they've defined their spiritual state according to the course. They believe that to say something against the course is to say something against themselves.  They should have enough faith in themselves so that even if they did make a mistake about the course, they'll still find that there is plenty about themselves they can feel good about.

I believe if one wants to show at least a little respect for Christ, they'll pray to him and ask him if the course comes from him, before they start shouting to the whole World that it does. This is what I did, because I was honest enough to realize that I might make a mistake when it comes to discriminating if ACIM comes from Christ.

I've found that the instruction I've received from Christ is quite different than ACIM. None of this new age like 365 day fits all course.   People don't have to rely on me to determine this. They can pray to Christ, receive guidance, and find out for themselves.

One more comment about Gary Renard and the dissapearance of the universe. It sure seems odd that he supposedly had dialogues with beings he claimed to have dialogues with, and somehow mysteriously the tapes got destroyed.  First there is ACIM, then Renard's dissapearance of the universe in order to help people understand ACIM, and now there's a book to help people understand Renard's dissapearance of the universe! Talk about a cash cow.

This universe is just a big mistake.
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no, not the universe, ELS is running on fear. Fear is the mistake. Love is the answer.
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Check out what the book has to say about NDEs. I think on pg. 263. The book says that NDEs don't accurately depict what happens during death.
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thats true. NDE's are experienced by the individual platform of their belief systems. all it's saying in conclusion at the end of page 263, (to my perceptions) is that quote.."you shouldn't confuse the very transitory joy of reported NDE experiences with enlightenment.
I fail to see how you can conclude Renard is a hoax from this statement.
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It says that because of guilt and fear of God most people reincarnate shortly after death. They have to reincarnate thousands of times.
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what you are not taking into account with this 1,000's of times business is that all those lives are occurring instantly in dimensional time frames as in truth there is only One here. We are the one.
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I've read lots of NDEs, and it sure doesn't seem to me that people run into guilt and fear of God issues. Rather they have wonderful experiences of divine love.
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Yes, but what the book is saying divine love is eternal. Still, we go through a life review, and this in real death, NDE is a taste of death. the life review is where we might want to see things we did, or left undone because most of us are not 100% fully enlightened while being in a physical body. and I seem to remember some of us enjoy building new lives and volunteer to reincarnate as quickly as a game plan is implemented. I think Gary is discussing a shift in consciousness occuring now which will essentially change the reincarnational process until all end up in the starting place. I always enjoyed the prodigal son story and think there is some truth in it.
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Issues that relate to guilt are often taken care of during a life review.
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again, guilt is a fear of being punished. a new consciousness to come will realize that we only punish ourselves, because we are all one. so there will be upon the earth less guilt to attend to, as we realize the value of do unto others, as you want done to you.
as to a personal experience, I have lost about 6 family members, not lost, for they still came around in spirit. each one came to different parties asking forgiveness for various things they had done. this shows me the value of attaining forgiveness before transitioning, and can speed up the enlightenment process considerably..however, it is done most often, in general after transitioning.
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They usually don't want to come back to this World but do so because of responsibilities they need to take care of such as their kids.  They never seem to come back and state that you have to become an enlightened being or you'll have to reincarnate over and over again. They simply say to live your life according to love.
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yes, well this is what enlightenment is. to live consistently according to Unconditional love. that is to give love, without expectation of having it returned. this frees the soul from guilt.
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As I've written before, I've prayed to Christ a number of times and I have always been told that ACIM doesn't come from Christ. I don't know why people get so hung up on the book. If they really want to receive guidance from Christ, WHY DON'T THEY PRAY TO HIM AND ASK FOR GUIDANCE?
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you're shouting again. it makes it very difficult to speak with u when u shout like that. remember, I'm a sensitive. I can feel your anger even if you think you have it well hidden.
Now, once more, your guidance is not my guidance. For one thing, you don't seem to believe that God would speak to anyone, excepting yourself.
you don't seem to give any others enough credit. you frequently find fault with authors who claim to have god conversations. you seem to look for dirt rather than looking for the light. you have a consistent pattern I've observed in the last few years.
As I've told you from the beginning ACIM principles are required for enlightenment of full potentiality. However those principles are also found in many pathways, and therefore you can gain from any pathway you stick with if you do unto others as you would like to have done to you, consistently enough, you will gain enlightenment. However, you are not doing that.
you are treating me with disrespect of my chosen pathway, and is this the way you do unto others?

You must allow others their beliefs without wresting them from them by your reports that god has spoken to you and told you that all the others who "say" God has spoken are simply a hoax.

to stop a war, or a disagreement, someone must lay their guns down. but you still have your guns; they are strapped to your waist. and your bullets are the bullets of self righteousness and anger.
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It is as if they are afraid to do so. Not much commitment is required if you simply rely on a book.
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you are in error that not much commitment is required when one relies on a book. My guide, which I say was Holy Spirit, which to say Holy spirit and JC are one and the same (my opinion) spoke to me as I opened the first page. A strong voice said "I will help you understand the Course, but you must commit to work with me daily on this or I will be wasting my time to help u get free of all your false beliefs about the world and about yourself.
ACIM is presented in Shakespearean blank verse or iambic pentameter; therefore it forces you to read the Course more slowly and carefully. Also it attracts the committed type of student. Obviously, the Course isn't for everyone. at least not for everyone all at once.
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I found this in Disappearance the other day: "The mind that is the maker of the illusion chooses completely against itself in favor of God.
this is the fourth level of the enlightenment process I have entered. another way this was announced as to love God, with all your mind, heart and soul, praying ceaselessly.
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that is to say a pure nondualistic state where the only loss is that of ego's illusions and ego's sense of separation and consequent state of conflict and confusion. I've not lost a thing in that case.
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 You can pick and choose as much as you want. Unfortunately,  as I found with my self and with others, the book can have a brainwashing effect, even if it has some nice things to say now and then.  
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yes, we can pick and choose, and thank you for telling me what I already knew. we have free will to choose. each of us does. free will is the one thing we like to guard zealously. however, as the Course says in the introduction "free will does not mean that you can establish the curriculum. it means only that you can elect what you wish to take at a given time. the Course does not aim at teaching the meaning of love, for that is beyond what can be taught. It does aim, however, at removing the blocks to the awareness of Love's presence, which is your natural inheritage. The opposite of love is fear. but what is all-encompassing can have no opposite. This Course can be summed up very simply in this way: Nothing real can be threatened; nothing unreal exists. herein lies the peace of God.
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I believe if one wants to show at least a little respect for Christ, they'll pray to him and ask him if the course comes from him, before they start shouting to the whole World that it does.
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the Course could have come from no other source than God, meaning our brother, Yeshua. I am very certain, in my heart. but I will not longer try to convince anyone, as I know they can find the truth in their own path, and not only that, they can take as many life times as they want, choosing all sorts of paths and experiences because even time is not what we think it is here, it too is an illusion, while in a slowed down vibratory rate of the body.
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This is what I did, because I was honest enough to realize that I might make a mistake when it comes to discriminating if ACIM comes from Christ.
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yes, I can see you value honesty above all; to the point of bluntness. rather masculine qualities.
The Course says, the student does not have to believe the source is the Christ, to attain peace of mind through the principles offered. and so our arguments here are really moot. We will cease then. I seek only to share myself, but I certainly would not say anyone has to go on the same path I have gone nor believe that it is the Christ. Whether you believe it or not, if it's true, you cannot change the truth. I say it's the truth it's J, you say it's not the truth, it's not J.  who is right? who is wrong?
what if it no longer mattered? what would we talk about?  ;)
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 People don't have to rely on me to determine this. They can pray to Christ, receive guidance, and find out for themselves.
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Not everyone is a Christian R, so you won't find them on their knees to him just because you advice them to.
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One more comment about Gary Renard and the dissapearance of the universe. It sure seems odd that he supposedly had dialogues with beings he claimed to have dialogues with, and somehow mysteriously the tapes got destroyed.  First there is ACIM, then Renard's dissapearance of the universe in order to help people understand ACIM, and now there's a book to help people understand Renard's dissapearance of the universe! Talk about a cash cow.
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hey, look at the pot calling the kettle black..lol...cash cow. I think you are a cash cow. matter of fact I don't see how you can deny it. is it bad to be a cash cow? maybe not. I think Christ would say, it's quite all right how much money you make.
the reasons are explained why the tapes were destroyed; people would still say it was all a hoax even with the tapes, you couldn't prove that the two beings were who they said they were, and people would be arguing among themselves about another moot point instead of looking at the content of the book.

There are many ACIM students who have written books about ACIM. The best one to attain is Ken Wapnicks explanation of the Course's inceptions during the 7 year period Helen took notes in shorthand of the Course. Ken explains how to study it without getting confused.

I was told by my guide when I became stumped to stop for a minute and think about it. as I did so the confusion was supplanted by the insight of what it meant. But I was only hung up in several places.

My guide was too too kind to stick with me through reading of it as it was difficult to undergo this type of transformation where peace of mind at last came. No, I didn't talk myself into being a happy camper. I just became grateful that I was loved and had not known I was even lovable.

but, certainly not would I ever say one must read only this material; that would go against the Course's objective to love one another, and do unto others as you want done unto you.

It is my belief we are all in exactly the right place at the right time and all of us are unique and will end up being all together by practicing PUL and forgiveness every single day.

Blessings to you, I spoke with you last night in a dream. thank you for everything. love, alysia

I certainly have some unanswered questions about Gary Renard, and I am unfamiliar with ACIM. I just went to the site and found that they have all the lessons available in any order in which a person would like to study them. Apparently, this was not always so. The lessons are not for everyone. Not everyone will be able to accept this course of instruction, as it is set out.

However, I did find a 2007 interview with Gary Renard which gave me a better idea of his attitude toward the personal seeker:

“Whatever we think about other people is really a message that we are sending into the unconscious mind about ourselves. So if we’re smart enough not to judge and condemn others - like the Buddha who had no judgment, and Jesus who not only had no judgment, but who had total love for everyone, and saw everyone as innocent and totally worthy of being with God - then that is the exact message that we would be sending into our own unconscious mind and that’s exactly how we would come to eventually feel and experience ourselves.”

Fascinated by this hopeful way of understanding the world, I asked Gary how to put such love and non-judgment into action. He responded by noting that there are two ways of undoing the experience of separation from God. “First, in the morning take some quiet time, 5 or 10 minutes, and forget about all the things you think you need or have to do or want. Just join with God in a state of meditation, with no words, and spend some quiet time with God - just joining with the light of God and feeling totally unlimited and getting lost in his love. If you do that every day, there is an aftereffect of inspiration. You will receive other gifts - not as physical miracles, but as inspiration in the mind that can lead to miracles.

“The other major way of undoing the sense of separation is through the practice of forgiveness. Forgiving others leads to an experience of rejoining with yourself and feeling whole again.” Such unconditional forgiveness may not be easy, but Renard suggests it is the core reason for being.

I suppose a person could take this advice to heart and never read any books at all. But, somehow, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Thank God for the many books we have available to us, and the freedom we have to express our truth to each other. Each of us is so fortunate to have the words to say how we feel, and the heart to feel it.

love, blink

Alysia said: "For one thing, you don't seem to believe that God would speak to anyone, excepting yourself."

Recoverer responds: On the contrary, I've said it over and over again that people would be better off communicating with Christ themselves, rather than relying on what a questionable source says.

If it's so darn easy to speak to God and Christ as people such as Helen Schuchman and Neale Donald Walsch claim, then why don't people just make contact themselves? I've gone through lots of energetic work and I found that it isn't as easy to receive word after word as Schuchman and Walsch claim.  I've found that communicating with Christ is more similar to what Bruce Moen experienced when communicating with the planning intelligence, rather than receiving a bunch of words as if you're speaking to a pal.

Isn't it strange that some of the most well know mediums say things such as "I hear a J, as in Jack or John, and then Schuchman and Walsch supposedly receive word after word after word?


Alysia, you speak of forgiveness, yet often when you speak to me about something where you have a differing opinion, you find all kinds of inapplicable negative things to say to me.  I've received a lot of help from the spirit of Christ. This being the case, does it seem so unreasonable for me to speak up when sources such as ACIM and Renard speak as if they are representing Christ when they aren't? If anything, I would be quite the ingrate if I didn't get upset.

You say ACIM comes from the holy spirit. Would the holy spirit lie about coming from Christ? Would the holy spirit shrug it's shoulders when it comes to the suffering of others and say nothing you see is real?  Would the holy spirit present a course that has a brainwashing effect that can't be judged by those who are currently brainwashed by it?** Does truth come from making a bunch of afirmations, or a state of mind that gets defensive whenever somebody challenges these affirmations? Would the holy spirit emphasize the ego as much as say for example, a Freudian psychologist like Helen Schuchman would do so?  Would the holy spirit cause a person to reach a depressed and angry state of mind where they end us saying things such as, "Damn that course," as happened for Helen Schuchman?"

**Regarding the brainwashing effect, eventually I realized that it was causing me to get brainwashed. I once visited ACIM booth at a new age fair, and the three people who manned the booth each had a brainwashed look in their eyes.  Course teacher Hugh Prather had the below to say. Also attached is a link which suggests the possibility that the course was a mind control project that Helen's cohort William Tetford created.

"What effect does the long-term study of such a teaching have on its students? I was surprised that after twenty years it was the opposite of what I expected. With two or three exceptions, everyone I saw at the gathering was far more separate and egocentric than they were when Gayle and I first met them. In fact, their egos were so large that many of them had lost the ability to carry on a simple conversation. They made pronouncements and listened deeply to no one. I was appalled, and when I returned home, I said to Gayle, "If this has happened to most of our Course friends, is there any chance it hasn't happened to us?"

The answer was that indeed it had happened to us. Even though we had long noticed the unhelpful effects of most religions and spiritual teachings on their students, we had thought that as Course students we were immune -- because the Course emphasizes reversing this very dynamic. If the dynamic is not the fault of the teaching or religion itself -- and in most cases it clearly is not -- what mistakes do students make that cause it?

When Gayle and I finally looked at ourselves honestly, we discovered that although we had been ministers and spiritual teachers for many years and had written over a dozen books on spiritual themes, we personally had not become kinder or even more sane through our devotion. We, like most individuals, started a spiritual path with the intention of becoming better people and finding ways to be truly helpful, only to move in the opposite direction. The more time and thought we had put into teaching and writing about our path, the more self-absorbed we had become. We had ended up less flexible, less forgiving, and less generous than we were when we first started our path!

What we had actually learned was how to mask our egos, act spiritual, and make our own thoughts less conscious. In addition, we had accumulated hundreds of new spiritual concepts, which, unfortunately, is the primary standard by which spiritual teachers are judged (as well, of course, as TV pundits, columnists, politicians, non-fiction authors, talking-head experts, and the like.).

As happened to us, most devout people seem unaware that these changes are occurring. They think they are making good progress, until one day -- if they are lucky -- they come face-to-face with the fact that their worst impulses have been growing in power and influence over them. In lieu of a true awakening, they make an unconscious determination that they have arrived, or that they have come close enough to the end of the journey that the remaining distance is of no consequence and requires very little of their attention.

There are clearly many individual exceptions to these generalizations, but not as many as we thought there would be when we began studying the phenomenon. This discovery has led us to place far greater emphasis on exposing the ways that the ego takes over spiritual efforts. Because the fact is, the day you started your spiritual path, your ego started it also, and for every spiritual motive you have, there is an ego motive as well. This is not reason to be afraid, but it is reason to be more aware. "


http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22a+course+in+miracles%22+%22cia%22&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

Hi Blink, thanks for your post. I am always grateful for this place to post my beliefs, as well my experiences as I've never seen so many friendly souls in one spot, as well from around the world.

I thank Bruce publically sometimes, but in my heart I constantly think thank you to him. and Monroe too.

I sense my time will end here someday, to be here among you, it's been about 8 years. so it makes the time here even more precious.

also one thing about ACIM is towards the end of the text it tells the student to "forget" this book. and go and have an experience, which means experience is more important, to test out the concepts for one's own self. I've been over 20 years testing the concepts about what love is and about what my illusions of love are..and I found it was all true, at least to my satisfaction. it is a self study course, unlike the bible thumpers, it can never be changed like the bible has been tampered with, until it is becoming well known that it has not the original message of love in it, which we call PUL here.

Yes, I've learned from being here, responding to so many posts, that how we see ourselves is how we see others, and making a statement about another, a person reveals then how they see themselves, and they are making a statement about this, and not about the other person or persons.

so I learned slowly, not to take it personally, whatever comes my way, is really none of my business what another thinks of me. yes, well, it takes practice! it's part of forgiving act.

Gary mentions in Disappearance that it took 9 years to complete his book, in which at the beginning he was still daily practicing forgiveness.

forgiveness is also about small things, like small irritations in life, as well as major relationships problems, so it's a way of life.
I like the idea of 5 or 10 minutes to be or feel at one with God. that is what I did too, only it was more like several hours of being with God oneness for myself, as I did not have to go to work during the time I took it. So 5 or 10 minutes would be great for the person who does 9 to 5.

thanks again, yes I believe the core reason for being is forgiveness so that we are not negative when we release the pain, the guilt, the fears that are hidden.

love, alysia

[quote author=recoverer link=1211828911/30#38 date=1214257492]Alysia said: "For one thing, you don't seem to believe that God would speak to anyone, excepting yourself."

Recoverer responds: On the contrary, I've said it over and over again that people would be better off communicating with Christ themselves, rather than relying on what a questionable source says
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how do you know that they are NOT communicating with Christ? Directly, and then writing it down?
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If it's so darn easy to speak to God and Christ as people such as Helen Schuchman and Neale Donald Walsch claim, then why don't people just make contact themselves?
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u r repeating your question. How do you know they are not communicating with Christ?
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I've gone through lots of energetic work and I found that it isn't as easy to receive word after word as Schuchman and Walsch claim.
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so you are assuming something. you are assuming because YOU cannot receive word for word, then surely they cannot.
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 I've found that communicating with Christ is more similar to what Bruce Moen experienced when communicating with the planning intelligence, rather than receiving a bunch of words as if you're speaking to a pal.
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well thats nice. you are just like Bruce then. good for you.
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Isn't it strange that some of the most well know mediums say things such as "I hear a J, as in Jack or John, and then Schuchman and Walsch supposedly receive word after word after word?
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no, I don't think it's strange at all. what I think is strange is your obsessive behavior in persistently discrediting everyone you come across which is related to channelling.
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Alysia, you speak of forgiveness, yet often when you speak to me about something where you have a differing opinion, you find all kinds of inapplicable negative things to say to me.
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yet dear lite, I too find you speaking to me within negativity of inapplicable things..isn't this strange?
is this love? ;D
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I've received a lot of help from the spirit of Christ.
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yes I know. He is my elder brother as well. Scuse me, can we share him?
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This being the case, does it seem so unreasonable for me to speak up when sources such as ACIM and Renard speak as if they are representing Christ when they aren't?
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yes, my opinion,you are the most unreasonable man I have met in 16 centuries.
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If anything, I would be quite the ingrate if I didn't get upset.
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don't let little me stand in the way of you getting upset. for sure we can forgive each other if we try. also, I am very grateful to the Christ being, so I wouldn't want to let him down by not speaking my truth as I believe it and feel it. I'm sure you understand that as you are loyal to principle, so am I. but forgiveness is a must at some time in argument. Even the Christ would say that to you.
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You say ACIM comes from the holy spirit. Would the holy spirit lie about coming from Christ?
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No because the holy spirit IS Christ. are u still believing in negative forces of evil?
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Would the holy spirit shrug it's shoulders when it comes to the suffering of others and say nothing you see is real?
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Suffering is real but the reasons why we suffer are false. we don't have to suffer, and we can help each other to end suffering by ceasing to engage battle.
notice we are now engaged in the true meaning of battle.
let's get on with forgiving.
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 Would the holy spirit present a course that has a brainwashing effect that can't be judged by those who are currently brainwashed by it?
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I disagree it is brainwashing, it is only a message about love and forgiving the world. we train our soldiers to kill in the battlefield. that is a form of brainwashing. how can you say to love and forgive the world as J has taught is brainwashing?
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** Does truth come from making a bunch of afirmations, or a state of mind that gets defensive whenever somebody challenges these affirmations?
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We know you are the challenging type. I have already noted that, and challenge is your game.
It's not my game. you are far too macho. That's why Christ visited you. you needed some assistance.
if that's a negative remark, it's not meant to be one. your ego is very strong. you need to read about the things that your ego will say to you. it's all lies. we are all One, it's time to cooperate within PUL.
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Would the holy spirit emphasize the ego as much as say for example, a Freudian psychologist like Helen Schuchman would do so?
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the ego and the Holy Spirit's separate voices indicate our minds are split here. the mind split when we seemingly entered physical matter. we were no longer in Eden, we had entered duality, or split mind.
that is why hemisync works so well, it heals the split mind.
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 Would the holy spirit cause a person to reach a depressed and angry state of mind where they end us saying things such as, "Damn that course," as happened for Helen Schuchman?"
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depression and anger have nothing to do with the HS causing that reaction. that was Helen's ego; after all, it you were writing a transformational book for 7 years, wouldn't you sometimes lose it?
even writing my journal caused some mild BST crashes.
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**Regarding the brainwashing effect, eventually I realized that it was causing me to get brainwashed. I once visited ACIM booth at a new age fair, and the three people who manned the booth each had a brainwashed look in their eyes.  Course teacher Hugh Prather had the below to say. Also attached is a link which suggests the possibility was a mind control project that Helen's cohort William Tetford created.
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this is all rubbish to me.
______

"What effect does the long-term study of such a teaching have on its students? I was surprised that after twenty years it was the opposite of what I expected. With two or three exceptions, everyone I saw at the gathering was far more separate and egocentric than they were when Gayle and I first met them. In fact, their egos were so large that many of them had lost the ability to carry on a simple conversation. They made pronouncements and listened deeply to no one. I was appalled, and when I returned home, I said to Gayle, "If this has happened to most of our Course friends, is there any chance it hasn't happened to us?"
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Yes, I no longer want to listen to you either. as you are vexatious and even the bible says to stay away from vexatious persons...I am equally appalled at you as whoever this is you are quoting. but I will still forgive you..later... :)
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The answer was that indeed it had happened to us. Even though we had long noticed the unhelpful effects of most religions and spiritual teachings on their students, we had thought that as Course students we were immune -- because the Course emphasizes reversing this very dynamic. If the dynamic is not the fault of the teaching or religion itself -- and in most cases it clearly is not -- what mistakes do students make that cause it?
____

so you are not proving anything. are u going to spend all your time looking for the negative reports and hold them up against the positive reports? just follow your own path. I already said you don't have to read ACIM, you can find out it's true through other sources.
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What we had actually learned was how to mask our egos, act spiritual, and make our own thoughts less conscious. In addition, we had accumulated hundreds of new spiritual concepts, which, unfortunately, is the primary standard by which spiritual teachers are judged (as well, of course, as TV pundits, columnists, politicians, non-fiction authors, talking-head experts, and the like.).

As happened to us, most devout people seem unaware that these changes are occurring. They think they are making good progress, until one day -- if they are lucky -- they come face-to-face with the fact that their worst impulses have been growing in power and influence over them. In lieu of a true awakening, they make an unconscious determination that they have arrived, or that they have come close enough to the end of the journey that the remaining distance is of no consequence and requires very little of their attention.
_______
these are temporary conditions R. Not everyone wants to stick with it. Your experiences with a guru have something to do with your outlook regarding the Course's teachings. I assure you, this is not my experience what happened to them. Not everybody is willing to love God with all their heart and soul and turn completely against itself in surrender to God.

so you see that's the story, and you have just shown me another ego ploy to delay one's giving up the world for the world of God. it's guite ok. it's each's choice.
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There are clearly many individual exceptions to these generalizations, but not as many as we thought there would be when we began studying the phenomenon. This discovery has led us to place far greater emphasis on exposing the ways that the ego takes over spiritual efforts. Because the fact is, the day you started your spiritual path, your ego started it also, and for every spiritual motive you have, there is an ego motive as well. This is not reason to be afraid, but it is reason to be more aware. "______
phenomenon is not how I see the Course's message. I see it as JC's trying to straighten out all the fallacies around Christianity which has sprung up. do you realize there are 230,000 different Christian doctrine based churches?

This is why he returns to individuals.
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In 100 years or so it will be known it was the ascended masters teachings. Until then, I am not obligated to defend the material or it's source. I'm sure JC has everything completely in the palm of his hand, including yourself.

again, blessings, and now I will offer my forgiveness again to the HS to show me how to do it, and also ask HS to allow me to forgive myself for trying to help you as it's apparent you do not need anything like love from me.

I'm sorry. goodbye, I wish you well.

Hi Blink, Alysia, R and Reach. I read Disappearance of the Universe, and got a lot from it. I'd a quick look at the organisation Gary started, but would have to say that I thought it wasn't quite on the same level as the book - that it's methods seemed possibly a little naive.

That might just have been my not connecting very well, but it might conceivably also be an indication that the book is the work of rather more than just himself.

There's from my own personal experience and what's taught by Buddhism enormous wisdom in what he and ACIM teaches on forgiveness, and on taking time for resting quietly and setting aside thought - stopping grasping, letting go,  resting with flow and meditating if you like. Even quite short periods of daily meditation can produce remarkable improvements in insight and well being - small miracles is a nice way of putting it, except that the miracles may well prove far from small.

Opening of the heart for example.

It's out of the silence that intuition and knowing come, rather than from reading or intellectual machinations. That doesn't mean that reading and intellectual explanation can't help to provide signposts, or to resolve technical issues getting us stressed out - but it's intuitive knowing and becoming, and not intellect that truly leads to transformation - to wisdom, compassion and loving behaviours towards both oneself and others.

It's a little rich for me to say this (Alysia knows why :)) but there's for me little point in getting too hung up about the legitimacy or otherwise of specific writings. The problem is that in the end even if a book is inspired we may not due to differences in how we 'see' connect very well with  it, or due to differences in how we use language draw the same meaning as another, or indeed as the writer intended.

We may at a given time have very different needs to another, or to those the writer was addressing. Writing can be pitched at levels ranging from the good old C1 linear logical objective ( e.g. the simple behavioural rules of conventional institutional religion), to the much much more subtle multidimensional, nuanced and paradoxical stuff that requires a great deal of insight and to connect with and apply. (e.g. certain Zen/Buddhist perspectives) We may also due to pre-existing belief systems simply be unable for the moment to take in what is actually very deep truth.

Books that really work spiritually have 'heart', that is they connect emotionally and spiritually at a much deeper level than the conscious intellect or ego, and act to weaken or even remove sometimes unconscious blocking beliefs. The trouble is that the 'chemistry' of this is highly subjective - how well or indeed if it works at all depends on the match between the reader and the writer, and to quite a degree on circumstance too.  A very skilled or better still an inspired writer will connect with a wider range of people, but it still comes down to fit or match.

What all this means for me is that it's best to remain pretty open and relaxed in responding to most books and teaching. No, it may not work for me, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for somebody else. Or I may not get it now, but be blown away in two years time by which point I'll have developed the required insight.

The truly great stuff of course plays at multiple levels - every time you come back to it it reveals deeper layers of meaning.

That's not to say there's not stuff that's so apparently off the wall that as a practical matter it's not best set aside. But even then it's probably best to do this as lightly as possible, to not get too invested in a negative (or a positive) view. Yes, it could lead another astray, but we all have our knowing, we all have to learn for ourselves and we're required to make space and to trust.

Never  say never. We're ultimately each our own guru/teacher...

Ian said: The truly great stuff of course plays at multiple levels - every time you come back to it it reveals deeper layers of meaning.
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this is true for me also Ian. I remember re-reading Bruce's stuff and wondering how I could have missed something the first time thru, I think it is because we are constantly changing and widening our perspective and so now we perceive new thought and even interpret differently.

thank you for your way you have of leavening.

Vajra:

If somebody took on a more traditional Christian belief system and wouldn't budge from it,  some people on this forum would say they are stuck in a belief system. At least ways traditional Christian beliefs systems refer to Gospels that actually have some historical relation to the life of Christ. The exact degree is hard to say.

To me words such as respect, reverence, grattitude, love, humility and loyalty do have a place in the dictionary. Therefore, when a source claims to represent God and/or Christ when they don't, I don't believe in taking a que sera sera attitude about it. I believe it is completely inexcusable for Helen Schuchman, William Thetford and Gary Renard with his imaginary characters to claim that they represent the teachings of Christ when they don't. If a person isn't able to see why it is completely unacceptable for them to do so, this tells me that they don't know what it means to have reverence, grattitude and loyalty towards a being like Christ. He has helped me so much there is no way I can sit down quietly when sources make false claims about receiving messages from him or beings who are supposedly closely associated and therefore authorized to represent him. Gary Renard just basically speaks Vedanta based views that don't represent the truth accurately, and then irrresponsibly attributes them to Christ.

With all the help I've received from Christ, he has never asked me to pass on words to other people, much less many, many words.  My feeling is that until a principle matches my level of wisdom, there isn't much point in my sharing it with others. All I do if I do so is add to the huge pile of incomplete and often inaccurate information that already exists.

People might say that they only have to accept what they want when reading ACIM, but the fact of the matter is that when a person assumes that something comes from an infallible source, either consciously or unconsciously, they are allowing their minds to take on a limited belief system that in the end will prevent them from seeing and living according to truth.   Being able to forgive doesn't mean you can't see when somebody is trying to con you.

It isn't a matter of whether "some" truth can be found in ACIM and the dissapearance of the universe.  It is a matter of whether these sources are what they claim to be.

Years ago when I was involved with eastern teachings there is a lot within dissapearance of the universe I would've agreed to.  This is no longer the case, even though some of the things the book says sound true.  I'm surprised that a fan of Buddhism such as yourself didn't take exception when Renard's imaginary beings supposedly told him that the Buddha wasn't completely enlightened.

and so, we know we are playing by the rules, from wikepedia:

Toleration and tolerance are terms used in social, cultural and religious contexts to describe attitudes and practices that prohibit discrimination against those practices or group memberships that may be disapproved of by those in the majority. Conversely, intolerance may be used to refer to the discriminatory practices sought to be prohibited. Though developed to refer to the religious toleration of minority religious sects following the Protestant Reformation, these terms are increasingly used to refer to a wider range of tolerated practices and groups, such as the toleration of sexual practices and orientations, or of political parties or ideas widely considered objectionable.
The principle of toleration is controversial. Liberal critics may see in it an inappropriate implication that the "tolerated" custom or behavior is an aberration or that authorities have a right to punish difference; such critics may instead emphasize notions such as civility or pluralism. Other critics, some sympathetic to traditional fundamentalism, condemn toleration as a form of moral relativism. On the other hand, defenders of toleration may define it as involving positive regard for difference or, alternately, may regard a narrow definition of the term as more specific and useful than its proposed alternatives, since it does not require false expression of enthusiasm for groups or practices that are genuinely disapproved of.

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a polite applause by all, in recognition of their unwitting success, love, blink

Blink:

It wouldn't be tolerant for me to stand by and say nothing about sources such as ACIM when I know better. It would be lazy, cowardly, dishonest, unloyal, lacking in grattitude, irreverent, and irresponsible.  I don't understand why it's okay for people to constantly push ACIM on people, but it isn't okay for people who have found out differently after really putting a lot of effort into finding out the truth of the matter, to speak up.  We might as well live in a communistic country where only the side of a self selected few get to say what can or can't be discussed.

If somebody misrepresented one of your friends, would you say nothing in order that you can tell people that you're tolerant?  There are many cases where this World has advanced because there have been people who have been willing to stand up to those who purposely deceive.

Oh, absolutely not, Recoverer, why stand silent?

The idea of tolerance does not preach silence. It preaches acceptance of differing views, and honest dialogue. Tolerance seems to be a process of negotiation, doesn't it?

We are constantly negotiating with the changing circumstances of our lives...and with the ideas we have about them. We receive a little help from our friends, as in the song.

So, of course, it pays to listen, and listen well, to every opinion in the circle...

love, blink

:)


wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 7:39pm:

Oh, absolutely not, Recoverer, why stand silent? The idea of tolerance does not preach silence. It preaches acceptance of differing views, and honest dialogue. Tolerance seems to be a process of negotiation, doesn't it? We are constantly negotiating with the changing circumstances of our lives...and with the ideas we have about them. We receive a little help from our friends, as in the song. So, of course, it pays to listen, and listen well, to every opinion in the circle... love, blink

Hi R. The problem with purporting to call right and wrong teaching I think is that our response to anything spoken or written can only be wholly subjective. That is 100% personal, filtered by what we believe, what we perceive we're hearing, and by our ability to discriminate and make sense of it. All ultimately tested by our experience having applied whatever we may have drawn from it.

This means that what we regard as good teaching, and what we take from teaching can only amount to a personal view.

The reality can never ever be any more than this. But this reality has enormous implications. To illustrate.

Something like the bible is enormously important and the basis of all belief to some - because they are heavily conditioned to believe it to be inspired, or maybe even (rarely) because they have made an in depth study of it and been convinced. Likewise for other holy books and teachers all around the world and down the centuries.

Viewed another way the bible is just some bloody book that all these people who have made an industry out of it demand that you must believe and accept as sacred. They tell you it's inspired, they tell you it was written many centuries ago, but for all you actually know they could easily have made it up last week.

Viewed yet another way the fact is that for an individual a few words on a bubble gum wrapper coming at the right moment, or in the right frame of mind are equally important. Perhaps ditto the writings of some apparent loon claiming to be channeling the word of God.

The point is surely that we're each responsible within our own reality tunnel or bubble of existence for sorting out our own view, and for on the way to this deciding what we choose to read, who we choose to listen  to and so on. We're each in the end our own guru or teacher. It doesn't matter how much we want or believe it to be otherwise, it can be no other way.

That's not to say that there's not some that can help us to raise our view by providing input or teaching to us. That's not to say that there aren't some books, teachers and teachings that in our personal view merit the height of regard, and others we'd rather set aside. That's not to say that there aren't books and teachings we wisely assign more credibility to given the respect accorded them by people we're inclined to trust. That's not either to say that it's not OK to communicate the hard won insights and views we've reached on these topics, or to  speak out against teaching that we feel to be false.

But it's fine line between this and getting too much invested in teachers or in trying to dictate what's right and wrong teaching.

At the personal level the effect of over investment must be to leave us stuck in a belief system, when the game is actually to stay open, to keep on evolving our view. A given teaching will often over time reveal layers as we open anyway - layers that were not at all apparent to us when we first read it.

When we attempt to force our beliefs on others, or to put down their opinions we're almost certainly no matter how much we protest or justify otherwise moving into territory where this investment has reached the level that we can't handle the fact that others might think otherwise.

Everybody's situation is different, so how can we presume to dictate what's right for them? I doubt it's by accident that we're all allowed 100% free will, and that the one step no guide, realised teacher or person working through love will take is to mess with this....

Here is some pertinent information about William Thetford who was instrumental in the creation of ACIM.  This is from Wikipedia.

Thetford was born on April 23, 1923 in Chicago, Illinois to John R. and Mabel K. Thetford as the youngest of three children. At the time of his birth and early childhood, his parents were both regular members of the Christian Science Church. At the age of seven, the untimely death of his older sister caused his parents to disavow their affiliation with the Church of Christian Science. Afterwards, for the next few years, Thetford sampled various other Protestant denominations. [R's comment: This possibly explains where the Theology for ACIM comes from.  The course does have a lot in common with Christian Science. Thetford's background as a psychologist explains where the ego talk comes from, just replace "ego" with Freud's "id."]

For the next five years after his graduation in 1949, Thetford worked as a research psychologist in both Chicago, and later in Washington, DC. According to Dr Colin Ross, from 1951 to 1953 Thetford worked on Project BLUEBIRD, an early CIA mind control program [2]. He spent 1954 and 1955 as the director of clinical psychology at the Institute of Living in Hartford, Connecticut. From 1955 to 1957 he was an assistant professor of psychology at Cornell University's CIA-funded[3] Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology[4].

From 1971 to 1978 Thetford, along with David Saunders, headed the CIA mind control Project MKULTRA Subproject 130: Personality Theory. [10] [11]

Vajra:

What if some guy claimed to channel Robert Monroe even though he doesn't actually do so, and markets teachings he refers to as "The continued explorations of Robert Monroe."  If people on this forum knew better would they just sit idle and allow some con artist to misrepresent Robert, or would they show some grattitude for the contributions Robert Monroe made and not let such a con artist get away with his con?

Hi R  :). The problem is that you can never know with certainty that somebody purporting to channel is either (a) legit, or (b) getting a clear feed, or (c) isn't delivering a message with a purpose in mind that's different to what you know.

As a matter of working practicality we of course have to make calls on these things. But we can never know with certainty what the reality is.

The point I'm trying to communicate here is nothing to do with arguing for or against any specific teacher or position. The point is only that it behoves us to rest lightly with whatever working position we adopt.

To resist the tendency that's always present with mind to avoid leaving anything open. We always want to rush in to close off what we perceive as an uncertainty, to the point that any answer for most of us is better than leaving an issue open. That's even before other conscious motives such as vested interests and so on kick in.

We hate space. We even hate to be in a room on our own in silence with our own minds, we call it boredom. We've all sorts of ways of preventing the silence that delivers insight from developing. Interminable questions, interminable ruminations. Ways of creating diversions. If we get under enough pressure we'll find a way to rubbish the teacher, the teaching or the book.

This is all ego at work - we always want to keep our view of reality stitched up and closed down. That way we avoid facing what we fear, facing anything that conflicts with the edifice that is our reality tunnel.

Yet the the prerequisite to spiritual progress is surely to remain open. To minimise reflexive thinking. To cultivate equanimity.

The classic Buddhist teaching on this topic is about an old guy whose son is about to be recruited to the army in ancient times leaving him alone to work the farm. At the last minute the son breaks his leg. Everybody commiserates, but the old man says its a blessing. Then their horse runs away. Again in response to commiserations he says maybe it's our good fortune. Then the horse comes home with a bunch of wild horses worth a lot of money in tow. Everybody is pleased for them, but he says never know, it could be bad news. Next thing they are robbed. And so on...

The point of the fable (told very roughly here) is that any investment in rigid views blinds us to the total reality of situations.

Another take on this is the old Zen 'caring but not caring' maxim. The point being that we have to care enough about stuff to act, but not get so deeply into identification with it that we can't see our position fully in context, without closing down.

This resting in space, this resisting rushing in to close things down, this staying open to paradox and to simultaneously conflicting views on stuff while at the same time acting with conviction on a working hypothesis is one of the most important abilities we can develop....