As a skeptic of reincarnation, I am interested if any off the forum members can remember details from their past lives or even alternate lives. Has anyone on the forum who has past life knowledge been able to verify his or her past lives in some way, such as previous domain, surname, name or nick name. On the other hand, for instant give an account about history or places and happenings unknown to them in this present life.

Some verifiable proof could bring me around to consider this belief more carefully in my own life and how it could  effect any of my maybe future lives.

alan

Hi Alan, yes I have details, but they are inner, heart connection details, not cold hard facts to share. science has not caught up to spiritual areas of the soul yet.

just briefly, if you've read Robert Monroe, he has something to say about it. for myself, it doesn't make sense to have only one go around here...knowing my intrinsic energy signature as a spirit, it didn't seem possible to have only one life's experiences in a single body. There's so much to gain here on this particular planet..it's like no other in the entire universe, the diversity available for purposes of gaining more consciousness and attain graduation.  Graduation is nothing more than having attained the awareness you now have a choice, upon transition whether to return to another life. No one will decide for you, as the karma is burned off (wrongs righted)

For me, the whole objective of incarnation is for sheer adventure of the challenge of "becoming."
and of busting through the veil of forgetfulness of who I am, who I have been, who I still am and coming to terms with the present personality in context of the many "me's". it's humbling, but it's also reinforcing the idea to live this life to the fullest as there will never be another life like this one, and this personality I am now. so gratitude is what happens for any sort of life at all. There's souls standing in line for a chance to live here in physical. We're blessed in that sense..we got in, theres a reason.

for folks who don't like Earth lives I understand. I used to feel the same way. the thing is we evolve here, we change our minds. Instead of avoiding challenges, we change our minds to accept them. It's the same way with being a spirit..we enter in here to become more of what we already are, and like the mountain climber says "I climb mt Shasta because it's there."

We have lives because they are opportunities for soul growth. There are beings who have never come here..it's difficult. They are not forced to come here. It was a choice. Accept responsibility that at one time you wished to be here. Now you don't. If you accept that once you did, it's easier to go forward thinking positively and counting your blessings instead of looking at your cup as being half empty, it's really half full.  Yet I don't think a belief in reincarnation is necessary for spiritual growth to occur, more important would be to live life according to being of assistance to life rather than adding to the mayhem we see around us.

love, alysia

Greetings, Alan,

I agree with Alysia that my dreams/visions can't proove anything. Neither can my saying that I had prior (earlier life) knowledge of a place that was then proven by more recent photographs. Nothing beats personal revelation,  :) as I'm sure you know from speaking of your abilities to someone uninvolved in these explorations!

A couple of other 'signs' that have pointed out my ties to the two previous eras that are now part of my consciousness:
--A chance encounter with a stranger while we both waited for an appointment, causing bells to tinkle and a voice saying 'she was your sister', although the pronoun 'she' was fudged, apparently not quite accurate. ('Her soul was in the role of sister to your soul' might be more truthful.)
--Trying to read books on a particular historical period before I had recognized that I had a life then, and feeling terror and having them fall from my hands until I gave up the attempt to read them.
--Meeting someone who played a pivotal role in my previous life and learning that that person's visions fit events in that life.

See, nothing proovable, just parts to a now large tapestry that I cannot deny.

Do you have several dreams that are unified by past clothing styles or other 'props or scenery'  that refer to a prior time?   :)  That's a good place to start remembering how often that period comes up to you with extra intensity, to find your role within it.

Bets

Hi alan.I have had lots of dreams of past lives,but nothing like the dream of bevaley.I had a friend,who my wife used to visit.he and his wife had a daughter by the name of beverley,who died at the age of 23 years of cancer.in the past 10 years beverley was on my mind almost all of the time,untill one night I was awakened by a voice saying beverley.I said what about her.then I was shoned a very clear photo of milissia,a young girl who worked at the bingo.The next time I went to bingo,milissa was there.I talked to her about my dream of beverley.And seeing her photo.she told me when she was 23,it was the worst year of her life.she said doctors could not find anything wrong.She was having pains in her body and thought she was going to die.after when she turned 24,the pains left her.I said you have another body out in the grave yard.She was shocked.I said why dont you go and visit your other body.she said I may some day.George

Thank you Alysia, Bets and George for you comprehensive response to my questions relating to the much-held belief of reincarnation. Although I have no conscious memories of past lives I do encounter people in my dreams that I know, but on awaking, cannot place them anywhere in this lifetime.

I have had the occasional de ja vu event and thought this might indicate other realities or past lives in some way. The strange people I meet in my dreaming state that "I know" but "I don’t know" (if you get my drift) are very similar to a de ja vu type experience.

In my case there seems to be a blurring between OBE , remote viewing and paranormal events that might migrate over into the past life arena if this is possible


alan

Greetings,

I agree that these various experiences all point to or 'blur together' a greater reality.
We humans named the segments of our experiences as OB, deja vu, etc. We named from our limited human perspective. And when we named them we separated them from the flow.
Some day we'll get back into the flow and wonder why on earth it was divided into parts.  :D

Love, Bets

Bets said:  :) Some day we'll get back into the flow and wonder why on earth it was divided into parts
____

good question Bets! as with all questions, I have a belief that an answer is attached, like a tail, onto each question, if we would travel the question to the tail during meditation.
The flow you mention is interesting, because a state of awakening consciousness here can be likened to getting into a flow; it also can be likened to entering a state of grace, where the way is made smoother.

sometimes there is an image in my head of a cloud of souls raining down upon the Earth, peppering the Earth with unique patterned snowflakes. The water of spirit feeds the soil and grows life here; we are also the plants and vegetation in that sense. Some of us even enter a plant or tree becoming "one" with it and picking up info on that living item with our minds and with PUL. So I liken this flow to the cloud.

This morn I woke up with a tune in my head  :D it went like this: HEY YOU! GET OFFA MY CLOUD!

haha! it's funny. (me, I'm funny) laugh at the rain, it only hurts for a minute! I have high hopes this year for all of us.  about the division, it's related to unity. The ego we must live with. the ego divides, the ego measures, the ego separates out. The spirit unites, blends, makes into wholeness what is divided in appearance only.

What Bruce taught me specifically by reading his books, and catching there what I needed in my thought system, was about the interpreter there in the mind.
He said the interpreter, which is likened to the ego, will provide and supply images whenever we are in contemplation, if you're not satisfied with the image produced there, nudge it over gently and ask for another image. Same with a belief system which we might harbor which no longer serves our higher purposes..no need to beat it up...just say thanks for serving me, as best you could, I no longer need your services..but never clobber the ego...it's just trying to do what you told it to do; survive in a world where duality, destruction and construction march side by side, and it all looks so real until the observer starts observing the patterns of behavior we get stuck in.

love to all, thanks Alan for the thread

Greetings,

Dear Alysia, you've provided several wise  thoughts that stand out bold to me, but I'm most amazed by this:
" never clobber the [Interpretor-] ego...it's just trying to do what you told it
to do; survive in a world where duality, destruction and construction march
side by side,  and it all looks so real until the observer starts observing the
patterns of behavior we get stuck in."

When I read that I felt sorry for being irritated with that part of me so I thought to love it, send it PUL. Doing that set off a response of amazing relaxation/ resolution. I think you've healed something , Alysia---thank you very much!

Love, Bets

Greetings,

Alan said "Some verifiable proof could bring me around to consider this belief
more carefully in my own life and how it could  effect any of my maybe future lives."

Truly, that must be the purpose of these revelations !
When we can put the parts of two or more lives together as one, we can better understand what it is we need to do here, who it is we are. That is certainly one effect of such discoveries, although at first it's easy to get carried away by the drama of playing several roles.
When dealing with the same aspects of life as I had before, i have to ask why am I repeating myself? did I not learn anything from that? Patterns show up better, and then it's easier to decide if these are attitudes I want to carry with me forever. (ugh  :P)

Some people say reincarnation is wrong because it distracts us from living life fully now, but if we use it to live our now life better, then we must be ahead of the game!  :)

Love, Bets

Alan,

Here are just 5 of my many reasons for skepticism about reincarnation even in cases of alleged verifications:
(1) the evidence from mainstream clinical hypnotists against the legitimacy of past life
    regression
(2) the flaws in Ian Stevenson's research in the past life recall of young children (e. g. two
    cases in which the allenged prior personality was still alive at the time of the birth of the
    alleged reincarnating soul).  
(3) the transparent absurdity of Robert Monroe's OBE "memories:"  (e. g. a past life as a
    pilot on another planet whose plane flies so low it must dodge the spears of cave men; a
    life in which his current [late] wife, Nancy, was tied up by Catholic priests, so that Monroe
    could ritually rape and stab her).
(4) the number of subjects who "recall" past lives as famous people (e. g. Napoleon) in mass
    past life regressions

(5) But my biggest reason for skepticism is Swedenborg's astral refutation of reincarnation.
    He initially recalls past lives during his astral travels.  But when he reaches higher planes,
    he is taught that past life memories are illusions created by unconscious mergers with
    other discarnate spirits.  During such mergers, the memories of these spirits get
    misidentified as those of the astral traveler.  Swedenborg's guides offer to demonstrate
    this illusion to those in the lower planes who embrace reincarnation.  But the denizens of
    these planes refuse to cooperate with this demonstration.

Don

don,we are not suposted to know that reincarnation is true,because if it was proven to be true,people would stop having babies.they would not want some 85 or 90 year person coming back as there son or daughter.would you want that? George

 Hi Alan,

 I guess i've tended to be much less skeptical about the whole reincarnation issue than yourself.  I've had some verifications here and there of hunches, dream info, and info that sensitives told me (which when pieced together added up to a very similar picture).  

  But hard core verifications as in scientific method...well don't know if this likely, and i haven't experienced it.  

 One of the more affecting experiences and verifications i had, happened rather spontaneously and out of the blue.  

 Many years ago, i had this really vivid dream wherein i was at a large library and a very wise seeming older looking man handed another man, whom i knew was "me" and/or an aspect of our Greater self, a large book.  I was experiencing the dream as a detached observer and from inside this man too.  

 The man opened up the book and a very vivid and real life, 3D type movie began to unfold.   To make a somewhat long story short, both "me's" started to observe this other man, a rough trapper type (a white, euro-american) guy trudging through the forest.  As both we's were watching this "movie" we started to experience it from the perspective of the settler/trapper guy too and i knew he was a part of us as well.  He got mauled by a bear, the bear didn't kill him though, and a Native American half breed healer woman found him and tried to nurse him back to life.   For some reason, in the dream she strongly reminded me of the singer songwriter Tori Amos and i jotted that down in my dream journal even though i thought it was rather odd and out of place at the time.   I don't remember if she looked like her or what.  Remember she was half N.A. and half White.  

 A few years or so later, i became friends with a lady on an astrology site, we had many deeper commonalities (as well as more superficial things, like i found out i use to live right near where she was and had been living for awhile), and we both felt rather familiar to each other but we didn't talk much at all about past life stuff.  

 Not too long after becoming friends, her husband whom she was very close too, died accidentally and out of the blue.  She was very devastated and became very grief stricken and became very wrapped up in her own self and pain.   For whatever reason, i felt a very strong, deep, and pervasive sense of obligation or duty to her and i told myself that i would be there for her no matter what, and honestly that wasn't always easy at times.   Normally, i'm not very good at keeping up communications especially through email and online kinds, i'm a rather detached and very Aquarian like in my relationships.  

 We ended up meeting in C1 a few times overall when i visited that area i use to live at because of family and friends.   One night when at a bar together, while talking, for some reason she looked a lot like or reminded me very strongly of Tori Amos.   This dream had been years before, i hadn't consciously thought of it for a long time, but all of a sudden the dream clicked in my head and i started getting this stream of impressions about her, us, our other selves all connected to that dream from a few years back.  

  I "knew" beyond a doubt that she was the half breed Native American woman and very talented healer in the dream who had tried to nurse that other self of mine back to life, and i got info that i did not remember from the dream, like that we had a relationship and that i ended up hurting her a lot (emotionally).   I got more detailed info than that as well, but i decided to ask her if she felt she had strong connections to North Native American at all.  

  She said yeah, and at one point it was pretty strong and especially along healing stuff.   I decided to just let go with all the impressions i was getting, and gave her all the main points in the above and some other info about "us" then, and as i was telling her she got a very strange expression on her face.  After i finished and some silence, she told me that many years ago her spiritual mentor an older lady, decided to give her a unique b-day present.   She knew an even older lady who use to give intuitive other life readings and who was involved with the A.R.E. for many years, and decided to ask her if she would give our mutual friend a reading even though she didn't do that anymore for the most part.    She agreed and two major lives and their influences came up in the reading.

  One was when she was a very gifted and intuitive Native American/White mix healer who became involved passionately with a settler, white man, but who ended up hurting her a lot.   She was told she and the man had unfinished business and that she would meet him again in this life.  In that life, both felt like outsiders and parts of two worlds.   Though the settler didn't have Native blood, in many ways he fit in more with the tribes, but yet he was still apart and not fully accepted by them and he because of his close relations with the "heathen" Natives, he was not fully accepted by the White folks either.    She being half breed had a hard time, but because of her gifts in healing and her general intuitiveness she was important to her tribe.

 Anyways, a lot of the major and minor parts all fitted together and lined up.  

 Was it just a coincidence?    To further complicate things, the man i viewed in the library was given psychic info regarding some of his other lives and one of his influening ones was as a settler/mercenary during very early American period, who became deeply involved with the Native Americans (both in positive and very destructive ways on both sides), and in particular a woman who was a half breed healer whom he had a relationship with and hurt a lot and the woman who had had this life, was told she became very embittered towards Whites, and especially white men after her experience with whom and what the psychic source called a "wastrel".  

 I had this dream at a time during greater inner turmoil and doubt regarding some info i had been getting regarding other lives of mine.   I had had some strong hunches, had been to a couple of sensitives, had some other dreams, etc. which all strongly led me to believe that some of my hunches might be true.    

 But at the same time, i was worried it was just ego crap and that i was possibly deluding myself even though i had experienced a lot of synchronicity and matching info on many levels in many areas previously, even BEFORE i had any conscious belief in a particular other life or before i consciously entertained same.  

 This dream came when i basically threw my hands up and said i give up, this is causing too much inner turmoil.  

 Anyways, the dream and the later experience with that particular friend, now makes a lot of sense on many levels, particularly my unusually strong inner need and desire to be there for her no matter what, the deep obligation i felt to her as if i was righting some deep wrong to her.   And its interesting how i came into her life, right before all that really challenging stuff happened and i ended up being one of the few people, if not the only person to consistently keep in touch with her for a long while after.  

 Now, was it hard core verification?   Probably not, but it was deeply meaningful to both of us and we both deeply felt the truth of this synchronicity.  To me, reincarnation and karma is all about relationships and balance.   The physical offers unique experiences and conditions, maybe not completely necessary to begin with but when one does become involved because of the nature of energy, attachments, etc., we tend to get somewhat stuck in relation to the physical and the relationships we have here.  

 Or like Bruce said in his story of Curiosity the probe, one of the pig pulls to the physical and to having other lives, was simply these emotional things and relationships, debts, etc. that Curiosity kept on creating in its relationships with other Probes and yet always feeling the need to balance and right once created.   That's the God part of us, the part of us which knows exactly what is right and loving and which desires perfect balance and perfect love.  

 Someone once asked a well known psychic source this, "What will convince me of reincarnation?"  

 The source just simply and succinctly answered, "An experience."    I've had enough experiences to realize that while the whole thing may be a bit more complicated than certain Eastern belief systems have promoted, and that we can sort of take in memories from other Souls/Discs, our own Souls/Disks still have their own physical lives and the karma connected to them independent of any memory melding type thing.  And instead of completely linear lives and gradual evolution through space/time, its much more like a Disk thing that Bruce talks about wherein a Greater self which exists outside of space/time, projects many various aspects of itself into various space/time cycles and not necessarily in a linear way that we tend to think and perceive from.  

 The truth is not either or, but both and all inclusive.  But to each their own and nobody is going to convince anybody else with the most logical arguments and/or the sharing of one's own personal experiences, or with collected data.  In order to believe, you have to be open to begin with, in order to have an experience it really helps to have some openness to begin with.   People can get really caught up in endless straw man arguments (on both sides), and more and more lately such stuff seems like a waste of time to me.  And yet, part of the reason we exist is to self express and to share and so maybe it's not a complete waste of time.  
   

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and explanations. I have read them all and reread them to get a feeling and idea of this vexing dilemma to me about reincarnation.  See it as a belief that requires faith just like any other belief. It simply cannot be proved or disproved as all the evidence for it is circumstantial... Just like the belief in the existence or non-existence of God cannot be proved and just equally disproved. Atheist and believers must exercise faith to justify their beliefs and so must those who believe in reincarnation.

Many say the bible indicates that reincarnation is a truth by Jesus referring to John the Baptist as Elijah. But I am sure he meant John was of the likeness and stature of Elijah, not Elijah reborn. That is my view on this, be it what it may

Now I have a problem with statistics when trying to rationalize this belief within my own faith system.

Statistics below:

How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth?
by Carl Haub

"How Many People Have Ever Lived on Earth?" is the most requested Population Today article. It first appeared in February 1995.
(Population Today, November/December 2002) The question of how many people have ever lived on Earth is a perennial one among information calls to PRB. One reason the question keeps coming up is that somewhere, at some time back in the 1970s, a now-forgotten writer made the statement that 75 percent of the people who had ever been born were alive at that moment.

This factoid has had a long shelf life, even though a bit of reflection would show how unlikely it is. For this, "estimate" to be true would mean either that births in the 20th century far, far outnumbered those in the past or that there were an extraordinary number of extremely old people living in the 1970s.

If this estimate were true, it would indeed make an impressive case for the rapid pace of population growth in this century. But if we judge the idea that three-fourths of people who ever lived are alive today to be a ridiculous statement, have demographers come up with a better estimate? What might be a reasonable estimate of the actual percentage?

Any such exercise can be only a highly speculative enterprise, to be ndertaken with far less seriousness than most demographic inquiries. Nonetheless, it is a somewhat intriguing idea that can be approached on at least a semi-scientific basis.

And semi-scientific it must be, because there are, of course, absolutely no demographic data available for 99 percent of the span of the human stay on Earth. Still, with some speculation concerning prehistoric populations, we can at least approach a guesstimate of this elusive number.

Prehistory and History
Any estimate of the total number of people who have ever been born will depend basically on two factors: (1) the length of time humans are thought to have been on Earth and (2) the average size of the human population at different periods.

Fixing a time when the human race actually came into existence is not a straightforward matter. Various ancestors of Homo sapiens seem to have appeared at least as early as 700,000 B.C. Hominids walked the Earth as early as several million years ago. According to the United Nations' Determinants and Consequences of Population Trends, modern Homo sapiens may have appeared about 50,000 B.C. This long period of 50,000 years holds the key to the question of how many people have ever been born.

At the dawn of agriculture, about 8000 B.C., the population of the world was somewhere approximately 5 million. (Very rough figures are given in the table; these are averages of an estimate of ranges given by the United Nations and other sources.) The slow growth of population over the 8,000-year period, from an estimated 5 million to 300 million in 1 A.D., results in a very low growth rate — only 0.0512 percent per year. It is difficult to come up with an average world population size over this period. In all likelihood, human populations in different regions grew or declined in response to famines, the vagaries of animal herds, hostilities, and changing weather and climatic conditions.

In any case, life was short. Life expectancy at birth probably averaged only about 10 years for most of human history. Estimates of average life expectancy in Iron Age France have been put at only 10 or 12 years. Under these conditions, the birth rate would have to be about 80 per 1,000 people just for the species to survive. Today, a high birth rate would be about 45 to 50 per 1,000 population, observed in only a few countries of Africa and in several Middle Eastern states that have young populations.

Our birth rate assumption will greatly affect the estimate of the number of people ever born. Infant mortality in the human race's earliest days is thought to have been very high — perhaps 500 infant deaths per 1,000 births, or even higher. Children were probably an economic liability among hunter-gatherer societies, a fact that is likely to have led to the practice of infanticide. Under these circumstances, a disproportionately large number of births would be required to maintain population growth, and that would raise our estimated number of the "ever born."

By 1 A.D., the world may have held about 300 million people. One estimate of the population of the Roman Empire, from Spain to Asia Minor, in 14 A.D., is 45 million. However, other historians set the figure twice as high, suggesting how imprecise population estimates of early historical periods can be.

By 1650, world population rose to about 500 million, not a large increase over the 1 A.D. estimate. The average annual rate of growth was actually lower from 1 A.D. to 1650 than the rate suggested above for the 8000 B.C. to 1 A.D. period. One reason for this abnormally slow growth was the Black Death. This dreaded scourge was not limited to 14th-century Europe. The epidemic may have begun about 542 A.D. in western Asia, spreading from there. It is believed that half the Byzantine Empire was destroyed in the sixth century, a total of 100 million deaths. Such large fluctuations in population size over long periods greatly compound the difficulty of estimating the number of people who have ever lived.

By 1800, however, world population had passed the 1 billion mark, and it has continued to grow since then to the current 6 billion.

Guesstimates

Guesstimating the number of people ever born, then, requires selecting population sizes for different points from antiquity to the present and applying assumed birth rates to each period (see table). We start at the very, very beginning — with just two people (a minimalist approach!).

How Many People Have Ever Lived On Earth?
Year      Population      Births per 1,000      Births Between Benchmarks
50,000 B.C.      2      -      -
8000 B.C.      5,000,000      80      1,137,789,769
1 A.D.      300,000,000      80      46,025,332,354
1200      450,000,000      60      26,591,343,000
1650      500,000,000      60      12,782,002,453
1750      795,000,000      50      3,171,931,513
1850      1,265,000,000      40      4,046,240,009
1900      1,656,000,000      40      2,900,237,856
1950      2,516,000,000      31-38      3,390,198,215
1995      5,760,000,000      31      5,427,305,000
2002      6,215,000,000      23      983,987,500
Number who have ever been born      106,456,367,669

World population in mid-2002      6,215,000,000

Percent of those ever born who are living in 2002      5.8

Source: Population Reference Bureau estimates.

So dear friends  according to this estimate we only had 5.8 of persons ever born living in 2002. Where are the other 95% of all humans born now existing, very few could have become ascended masters could they?

Alan

Alan,I have read somewhere there were 5 billion people on the earth at the time of the great flood.George

Hi Alan,

I am not certain about reincarnation - I tend to doubt the way it is represented as an inevitable occurrence.  If it happens, I do not personally believe it is as frequent an occurrence as some believe.  As to your math - it has been reported on this board before that since our population grows logarithmically, everyone could not have been on this planet before.  .  The problem is, that we are dealing with the afterlife, a realm not bound by linnear time.  Thus, some postulate that multiple lifetimes are being led by a single soul at different points in earth time (not linnearly -  but in past, present and future time).  The idea is that these experiences may then be integrated by the soul when complete in the afterlife - in the absence of linnear time.  Thus a soul called Ralph, might lead 300 lifetimes spread out over 5000 years of human time.  Some of the final incarnations may be in the past or the future of earth history.  So reincarnation does not have to be linnear.  Some have postulated that souls incarnate on earth or other planetary systems.  Some on this board even postulate the idea of a soul dividing itself into fractions - something I personaly have a problem with.

The question of where the new souls come from, or where they were before incarnating, is, of course difficult to answer.  However the multiverse is a big place.  If one postulates numerous realms of mind/spirit, interpenetrating dimensions, and multiple planetary systems, I'm not sure that we can keep up with the math.

The uncertainty of soul mathematics in no way supports the truth behind reincarnation; it does not disprove the notion either.  

Matthew

Matthew,

Your comments make a lot of sense. The possibility of souls inhabiting different times realms outside linear time makes the statistics fit into the belief. But hek!! That just exacerbates the problem and could result in some souls having to be reborn countless thousands of times, and even overlapping the same time frame, making possible for the same souls living side by side in the same time on earth as different aspects of itself. So one could encounter ones self in life many times without knowing it.

The time paradox might not like this as one could murder oneself or make possible that Ralph could live simultaneously 300 000 times, side by side with himself, in the same time frame. Say one identical lifetime period say 1970 until 2060, (even in the exact same place or town city) and not necessarily spread over 5000 years as you suggested. Of course, this does not invalidate your postulation.

The possibility of souls leaving the earth plane and incarnating somewhere else in the universe is a possibility I have long speculated about, but again this goes against the much held belief that we must learn and unlearn difficulties experienced on our planet earth on earth and not in some other strange planet or dimension.

I simply cannot accept the fragmentation of our souls or awareness’s as this would make the term “she/he does not know if she is Martha or Arthur” an awful realty but this brings to mind multiple personalities such as Sybil and the three faces of Eve.

So to this humble entity the jury is still out debating, the evidence remains circumstantial, and reincarnation is based on faith, not fact just like any other religious belief.

Alan

Ahah!
Not yet are we done,
Dear Alan!

What if I told you that I've found an autobiography of a 1800's person that matches a current person in at least 7, maybe 12 ways? The matches have to do with appearance, personality, attitudes, profession, skills, interests ?  What if every ailment and wound this current person now suffers relates directly to documented pain he's given to others in the previous life ?!
What if I said that this is not some wish fulfillment on my part, it is closer to horror, nothing I would ever want to happen?
And that the past person was only accidentally  discovered while I was researching the time and place revealed as of my former life. Reading the autobiography and seeing the photos was like meeting the current person but in strange costumes.

Bets

Hi Bets,

I am all eyes, some details please!

aLAN

hey y'all, who cares?  :)  sometimes you just don't care anymore when you're having a good time, or getting done what you want to get done in this particular life.

It's a holographic universe though..my opinion, we're constantly spinning off images; why wouldn't the universe spin off people like the Earth peoples, the apple tree apples...whatever! I'm lucky I'm still alive!

Bets...keep going if you have some data..Justin thinks the same as I do. I'm not into merge into nothing type person, I'm for the individual, first and last and all accounts. and the constant becoming more of same.

but a few tidbits to add: my daughter (I have twins) saw the three of us walking in a vision, we had long dresses on, we danced in a ballroom type place, we strolled on grassy knolls, somewhat leisurely life I suppose. a happy life? don't know. thats what she saw and she's not into this stuff like me.

Oh I've told this before: my twins before they were born came to me as spirits, giggling spirits. I sensed we flew around at night together. the 3 of us are very close.

she also saw once me and her as boys in the holocaust camp.

when I asked spirit once why my mother rejected me in this life and acted like I shouldn't have been born, I was shown myself assassinating her when she was a bad ruler over the slaves in Greece.
then mother told me she knew she had been a ruler, she called herself a queen. I thought she was nuts until I had my own visions about the reason she ah, didn't like me. I had come back because I wanted to make it up to her and I did. case closed.

yes it was me. It wasn't a spook floating by. it was me and I can't get out of admitting it.

then theres dead preacher guy. early in life I knew a very good psychic, who was well known. she gave me some past life readings and turns out I was once a missionary baptizing natives. I assume a man.
In this life a group of spirits came to me telling me to follow JC. reminding me. biblical phrases stick in my mind like glue. I love preaching. will do it anytime someone lets me.
The funny thing is DP seems to be a spirit now who was around me when I wrote my book. Or, is he inside of me? in my disc? in a holographic universe maybe mind as holographic principle spins off our lives and each of us builds an individual personality/character until we complete our missions and elevate ourselves (as individuals, I insist!) into more harmonious circumstances in the universe which appears infinite...not something like we could measure infinite, so give it up! haha!

when I don't have nothing to say I come up with this gem: There are greater mysteries in the universe than are dreampt of in your philosophy.

do we really need to know EVERYTHING? not all at once. it would spoil the surprise.

Hi,

Regretfully, I don't have permission from the person living now to post the specifics of who is/was who.
I don't really expect I'll get that permission.
Of course nothing is real until it's experienced, so I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. But perhaps my experience (referred to earlier) will open the possibility that we are 'eternally' involved in a mode we call reincarnation.
Until you have your own experiences, Alysia's point of view seems like a good intermediate stage to adapt.

Love, Bets  :)

Bets,

I believe you I really do,

alan

There seem to be two kinds of "reincarnation" memory. One is of something that is totaly different from what one is experiencing in this life even though something in the memory "rings true>'

The other is of something where there are parallels between this one and the memory.

I don't know if the two types of experiences should be separated or lumped together. I think the parallel experiences are corny. why would I want to do this TWICE? Yipes!

But sometimes the parallels are really eerie. What do they mean?

So bets is talking about a parallel type experience.

Here is another one:

http://www.confederateyankee.net/

I did not find this book exciting reading. However, the experience this guy had, of remembering something from a distant past, in a particular situation, and that led to his discovering all the parallels, is quite interesting. Alan can you get hold of a copy where you are?

another review:
http://www.psychicsahar.com/artman/publish/article_258.shtml

interview
http://spiritkeep.net/ghosts/interviews/jkeene_sey.html

I don't know what kind of proof you are looking for, but I wish someone would spell out the rules they want to use. I wrote on another topic : Ulcers, about the way we accept what physicians tell us without proof, because it is dogma (ulcers are not caused by just stress in spite of what docs used to claim). We don't ask for proof every time we go to the doc; why do you ask for such a high level of proof here?

Thanks Alan, Alysia, Justin,

I know the correlations are there, but I have doubts too. Fortunately on some recent retrievals or visits rather, information the same as I got  gets verified by others and that builds my courage.  I think being sure is a matter of learning what questions to ask.

I agree Lucy, that too many correlations between lives seems odd--why  would someone want to do it all again? In the situation I referred to, this person certainly is not doing it all again, and wounds are sufferred differently than the earlier victims experienced, not lethally but with long term pain.
Maybe we all get some similarities for the sake of stability. And then there's Disk family support that hopefully is continuous.

It's all exploring, right, no guaranteed outcomes?  But the more we can deal with and still retain our connections with PUL, the further up the ladder we'll be.

Bets

I think the whole point of similarities, like deja vous awareness, the feelings of knowing someone when u first meet them, carrying scars or similar wounds from one life to the next is to get to the point of recognizing our propensity to change our destiny upon receiving the memory sufficiently.

The gaining of this type of awareness is worth whatever repitition we are observing as it causes new decisions to mull over. Making new goals to change what is re-occurring.

It would be analogous to what is human behavior in establishing a habit and wanting to change the habit by doing something different, because if you do what you've always done, you get what you've always got. A state of awareness/beingness where all things become "new" is what we all secretly desire. In Christianity it is called being reborn in the spirit. all things old pass away. life takes on a sparkle.
reincarnation can become moot in the light of what the Christians are trying to say on this point of being reborn. it is synchronistic with the heart path, PUL factor, and it is not a phenomenon that can be relegated just to one religion such as Christianity but being reborn can also happen with a person who has no religion to follow.
I simply attribute this to old souls. they've had so many lives, they have gained here all that is gainable and ready for the next sequence of events for their soul to occur.

observe Monroe's: "there is nothing here for me now. I remember where I came from and prepare for my departure."  This is what graduation entails. He is trying to describe a state of consciousness he came to, where the pull of the Earth station is no longer pulling him back to repeat anything.
Now, he has choice. No more one more time for old time's sake.

It is the ultimate freedom of the spirit to choose one's destiny. but the freedom that become before that freedom is realizing there are no victims..there are only agreements to play these roles until we observe what it is that can be changed..and that boils down to changing reaction to action consciously undertaken by choice to be assisting life rather than assuming we are prisoners here to fate.

Alysia and others

Alysia quoted


Quote:

It is the ultimate freedom of the spirit to choose one's destiny. but the freedom that become before that freedom is realizing there are no victims..there are only agreements to play these roles until we observe what it is that can be changed..and that boils down to changing reaction to action consciously undertaken by choice to be assisting life rather than assuming we are prisoners here to fate.

Yes Alysia dear as for this spirit if has determined not to return to this troubled earthly plane

alan

Betson

did you get a chance to look at the interview? This is most relevant to this discussion.

I would be interested to know if the person you are talking about has read Jeffrey Keene's work. It is so similar a situation.

Keene's experience of being overwhelmed with sensations and emotions just out of the blue when he was just puttering around at Antietam Battlefield Park is really striking. It's as though he stepped across time. That to me is more interesting than all the other stuff, though it is a package deal. For him, seeing the photo was more intense. I've never had that sort of experience. Once when I was going through a particularly difficult belief system change, I was out walking and noticed I thought everyone looked like me for a while, but that faded; photographs last longer.

http://spiritkeep.net/ghosts/interviews/jkeene_sey.html
Interview

Greetings,

:o   That Jeffrey Keene interview that Lucy links here is one of the most compelling cases I've ever read!  In a concise and feeling way he discusses the main clues that have proven his situation tohimself and others.

I don't know why the concept of soul is ignored until Keene brings it up in the last paragraph. Isn't soul's progress the main purpose of reincarnation? Also love is never mentionned although Keene has determined that (disc) familieis often incarnate together.

Keene has had two + lives in a row which have been heroic. A younger soul who is still making errors might not find past lives so satisfying to visit.

Alan, I don't believe we have to come back. It's just one method (I'm convinced)that the soul uses to learn more.

Love, Bets

Hi Alan and members,

Incarnating into this thread here  ;) -
I believe in reincarnation whether linear or non-linear (depending on one's intellectual or existential pov), since it just makes intuitive sense to me and also since some more developed souls also pointed in that direction. Based on investigation and experience, I do question the value for myself for any dire or pronounced necessity to know specifics regarding my past/other lives within the current context of this life. I have seen much misguided preoccupation within the pursuit of these issues to the point of ultimate and unfortunate (even obsessive) distraction in many seekers I have known. There are probably some cases when people who need corrective reorientation may need to know certain things about other lives in order to solve persistent problems, but I have a feeling this need is relatively rare since karma and Grace most likely provide the appropriate raw materials (including the use of regression, readings, or even personal direct facility in this area etc., if necessary and useful) in any given life with which to help process that which must be worked through. I guess in that sense I would agree with Alysia's pov to some extent.

Personally, even after having recieved 'indications' from various sources, feelings, intuitions, dreams, I have found that any such knowledge or lack thereof has evidently not created any impediment to my own current practice - iow's at least for me it has been largely unimportant even if some intermittent speculation has provided an occasional and enchanting diversion.

Of course, there is also the issue of proof, which seems to be a bit of a dead end as it is a totally subjective call for each person in either the affirmative or negative case, no matter what and how convincing information is presented from others. Also, just because one does not know something definitively doesn't mean it is untrue, and the whole continuous process of knowledge acquisition on any subject bears this out. Before you know, you don't know, and you may not even know that you don't know. When you do know, you know you know. Then, much like all else in life it seems to come down to what is useful or not, whether true and factual or not.

Here below are some good materials (in chronological order of publication) from a few contemporary sources I have found to be helpful on this subject among others, should anybody want to exlore them. It seems that spiritual masters do not make a big fuss about death, reincarnation, NDE's, etc., since for them it is all real, normal, and readily accessible 24 hours a day. They know and they know they know and apparently do not feel the need to put much energy behind the question of proof because it seems (apparently) irrelevant for them.

There are many issues brought up in this thread (and quite a few others for that matter) that are discussed in one or all of these materials, including the philosophical basis of the very discussion on the issue of proof itself.  


Essay by Swami Vivekananda on reincarnation:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_4/Writings:_Prose/Reincarnation



3 essays by Sri Aurobindo on reincarnation:

1) "Rebirth", 2) "The Reincarnating Soul"
http://intyoga.online.fr/rk_1_2.htm  

3) "Rebirth and Other Worlds; Karma; The Soul and Immortality"
http://intyoga.online.fr/ld2_22.htm  

Further recommended by Sri Aurobindo:
"The Problem of Rebirth"  17 essays - various subjects all on the theme of reincarnation and karma (including the 3 essays in the above links) - were originally published separately in 1915(?), and  were later compiled and republished posthumously in the book in 1952.
At this link you can find most of the separate essays contained within the book by linking then scrolling half way down the page: http://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/16/index_e.htm



A book by Sri Chinmoy, "Death and Reincarnation" -
The entire book dealing with the same subject, including many answered questions from seekers is available here:
http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0066/



- u

Ultra,

Your Quote


Quote:

There are probably some cases when people who need corrective reorientation may need to know certain things about other lives in order to solve persistent problems, but I have a feeling this need is relatively rare since karma and Grace most likely provide the appropriate raw materials (including the use of regression, readings, or even personal direct facility in this area etc., if necessary and useful) in any given life with which to help process that which must be worked through. I guess in that sense I would agree with Alysia's pov to some extent.

Thank you for your thoughful comments, however grace and Karma or not the same in that via karma one works out oes own destiny by many life experiences. Grace on the other hand is the unmerited favor of god leading to immediate salvation into the afterlife,

alan  

Don had written


Quote:

Swedenborg's astral refutation of reincarnation.       He initially recalls past lives during his astral travels.  But when he reaches higher planes,       he is taught that past life memories are illusions created by unconscious mergers with       other discarnate spirits.  During such mergers, the memories of these spirits get       misidentified as those of the astral traveler.

Jeffrey Keene describes a vivid experience that I suppose could be called such a merger


Quote:

I walked down onto the road itself. I had only gone a few yards when something very strange happened, something the likes of which I hope will never happen again. A wave of grief, sadness and anger washed over me. Without warning, I was suddenly being consumed by sensations. Burning tears ran down my cheeks. It became difficult to breathe. I gasped for air, as I stood transfixed in the old roadbed.

this is from the interview page. This took place in C1.

So if it is not reincarnation, how else could Keene's parallels with Gordon be explained? and what happened on that road in Antietam?

Lucy,

Quote:

Quote:

I walked down onto the road itself. I had only gone a few yards when something very strange happened, something the likes of which I hope will never happen again. A wave of grief, sadness and anger washed over me. Without warning, I was suddenly being consumed by sensations. Burning tears ran down my cheeks. It became difficult to breathe. I gasped for air, as I stood transfixed in the old roadbed

I have also had this type of profound experience and know I have preexistence and that I am a very ancient being. Down here on earth, much of my higher self is left behind. Sometimes for a brief moment, I amalgamate with my higher self and feel joy or sorrow etc etc.

Memories of existence of other realms are there in my composite mind, but none relate to previous earthly lives. I remain open on this question and any skeptism on my part does not invalidate the truth thereof, if this belief is true.

alan

In reponse to Berser's critic9ism, I feel that an honest response is inorder, since I'm one of the nation's more or less leading proponents in the field of past life work.

The criticisms are:
(1) the evidence from mainstream clinical hypnotists against the legitimacy of past life regression
=> There are noproven criticisms of past life or reincarnation, just as there are noprovn proofs of it. We simply are ignorant of the ultmate details.
(2) the flaws in Ian Stevenson's research in the past life recall of young children (e. g. two cases in which the allenged prior personality was still alive at the time of the birth of the alleged reincarnating soul).  
=> This is unusual, but if we accept the notion of a "Higher Self" then we have an aspect that is not materially bound - it might indeed be multiply present in the world in several locations at once. Again, no proofs either way. However, I have heard this type of thing from regressees.
(3) the transparent absurdity of Robert Monroe's OBE "memories:"  (e. g. a past life as a pilot on another planet whose plane flies so low it must dodge the spears of cave men; a life in which his current [late] wife, Nancy, was tied up by Catholic priests, so that Monroe  could ritually rape and stab her).
=> Sounds like an allegorical way of describing one of those "marriages made in heaven" - my ex-wife used similar language to me, which is what I got for marrying a feminist.
(4) the number of subjects who "recall" past lives as famous people (e. g. Napoleon) in mass past life regressions
=> The same ego-trips pertain because the same attachments pertain, whether living or dead
(5) But my biggest reason for skepticism is Swedenborg's astral refutation of reincarnation.  
    He initially recalls past lives during his astral travels.  But when he reaches higher planes, he is taught that past life memories are illusions created by unconscious mergers with other discarnate spirits.  During such mergers, the memories of these spirits get misidentified as those of the astral traveler.  Swedenborg's guides offer to demonstrate this illusion to those in the lower planes who embrace reincarnation.  But the denizens of these planes refuse to cooperate with this demonstration.
=> From a state of contemplation, for example nirvastarka samadhi, it is directly obvious that life as we understandit is actually not as we perceive it at all. Physics tells us that everything is 99.99% emptiness. Add to that a collective hallucination originating at the God-end ofeach lifeline, and it makes sense to say that our view of life is unreal. The criticism is valid, but it misses the point and is comparing aples and oranges.

Row Row Row your boat - life is but a dream. ;-)

dave

Alan

That is very interesting. Keene came to associate his experience with the life of a particular person, Gordon,  because the experience was specific to a place that had been highly significant to Gordon. At the time it happened he didn't have a clue what wasa going on.

I take it you don't have any reason to relate your experiences to particular events in C1 or to any other people.


Dave

Are you saying that life is an illusion so the point is so what if past life memories are illusions, it is all illusion anyway?

Did Mr. Rogers really make this version up?

Propel, propel, propel your craft,
Softly down the liquid solution.
Ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically, ecstatically,
Existence is but an illusion.


sorry could not resist.

I've often wondered who invented that rhyme ..the version we all used to sing, that is.

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 7^th, 2008 at 2:18am:

Thank you for your thoughful comments, however grace and Karma or not the same in that via karma one works out oes own destiny by many life experiences. Grace on the other hand is the unmerited favor of god leading to immediate salvation into the afterlife, alan

Hi Alan,

I would take the position that everything is Grace, even karma.

That is, God's functionally infinite patience, support, love, preservation of 'continuity' in allowing each individuated being a limited free will to make 'mistakes' and self-correct, evolve on the road of self-discovery. In this way 'destiny' is just an unfolding of God experiencing Himself through 'us' from complete ignorance to full Gnosis.

Is there anything that is not of/fromGrace?

As far as afterlife and salvation, again, I am reluctant to make such distinctions - afterlife, beforelife, afterdeath, afterbirth, etc. - these all appear to be different 'contexts' in which consciousness is, and becomes aware of Self. If you want to call it salvation that seems fine, but i also think that salvation may take place right here in the physical where it may be more, or at least differently significant as we seem to need it more here.

By my way of thinking it is all unmerited, all an unconditional gift. Even the strictest, harshest form of karmic Justice on some level may be seen as a kind of Compassion because if and when absolutely necessary, it illumines and leads to greater perfection.


- u

I agree with Ultra that all is Grace..that unmerited favor, like the sun shining on the just and the unjust, is likened to forgiveness rather than bestowing the eye for an eye reaction to life. yet we are not all in the same rung of the ladder so to speak so we do this salvage thing concerning salvation.
we call it retrieving using PUL which is like grace using us.
there is much joy when a retrieval has been accomplished; I'd say it's our heritage to begin to perceive the thing called atonement has already occurred and so time is the illusion, in the sense that we perceive ourselves as probes in ELS. As probes, there is indeed this aspect of ourselves, the higher self which projects into ELS only a portion of it's self.
this is why I view life as a movie I'm in because not all of me is here, just enough of me is here in order to gather my desired experiences.

from reports of NDE'ers, and other personal experiences I've had, once you've visited the higher levels of being, been merged with your higher self which is your connection to God, coming back here is so disappointing in comparison, like it would be in a bright and lovely room, it is like having to live in a shadowy and dull place.
to reconcile this, we need only reflect that we are all one. and that in our various ways of our contracts with life, we come here to salvage each other so that the cycle need not repeat for the graduates who have mastered all there is to master here; namely the vices and appetites of the ego which would be causing war, and death, and being rather one pointed on the matter of killing people to solve problems as foolishness, I can foresee the point to get across in this lifetime is to realize capitol punishment is not a solution, nor is killing of the body for it continues, that what is killed returns, it's only a body.

I do see that merges take place between two or groups. however, in no way can I conjecture that one loses the building of their own character gets merged into some other body and this with a subsequent loss of that individual flame. I see merges could be very enjoyable and relaxing, but the nature of the Creator is to produce more that is like Himself/Herself and in order to do that, the created must have the freedom of choosing to return to God, and I do not see such a return as a loss of all the experiences it has gone through.
If anything is lost in a merge, it would be that which is untruth, which is unlike PUL. Any lies or illusions that we have become attached to, I would see these as something we would desire to lose anyway.

As far as what grace is, consider the prodigal son story. He squandered all and was ashamed to return to God. However, God was preparing for him a huge celebration feast. That is what PUL is like within God.

I would conjecture humanity is birthed into ELS in waves. I guess I could say I came in with the hippie wave. these are the ones who previously lived in the victorian age. so it appears we are all at different stations for awhile, and all have our discs, or group affiliations, and in certain circles, it is called essence groups with certain focus's. When thinking of reincarnation, it is easier for me to think of being one with all my lives simultaneously happening in the same dimension, but on different movie sets, since linear time would be the illusion we work within.
If there is eternity and we all look to that concept, then all that is happening has already happened and the atonement is finished and completed, because there was no beginning and there is no end.

the only thing that helps me, is to think on the love we have for one another in retrieving each other back to the unconditional love factor, that it is all for one, and one for all, so there is no need to fight each other for anything, nor even to reflect too much on unanswered questions of theology.
it's good to think, but not to the exclusion of finding the basic goodness we all have in our souls which is like God.

What we call reality is better termed "opinion", and that, in turn, is contingent upon our social circumstances, physical equipment and sensorium, and what we've been taught to believe and what to reject. Then our life experiences define reality for us, adding another layer of distortion.

A typical classroom experiment is to draw two lines on a blackboard, line A slightly longer than the other line B. Then the class agrees to refer to the shortest line B as the longest, and vice versa. Next we bring in the innocent victim and ask which line is longer. After hearing everyone else say that line B is longest the victim will change perception and agree. Afterwards they usually say that it actually appeared as if that is how the lines really were.

People have experiences that generally cannot be explained. As an example, while asleep we are in a "world" that cannot be defined. Often it differs from the everyday world in important ways. In surgery we sometimes have OBE experiences that are difficult to explain away. Some people see the dead, others don't, some are highly mediumistic, others aren't. All of these are essentially personal peculiarities of perception.

When we talk about "reality" we casually overlook the numerous forms of reality the people perceive. In fact, there is no single "reality", because each of us sees it in a slightly different way. There are billions of aproximations to some ultimate ideal reality, but there are no total agreements. It follows that life, as we know it, is a very large number of similar things, but cannot ever be precisely defined without calling in the mechanisms of perception. So, in a sense, we generate life by the way we live.

Given that we cannpt define life, we can even less define death. I learned as a child that a dead bird made no song, and its head was kinda limp and dangly on its neck. And that's about all we know. We defne death negtively, in thesense that death is not life, death is not dancing, death is not going to the movies, death is not singing, death is not walking around, death is not . . . But we are stuck when someone asks, "Yes, but what IS death?"

So now we can say that we actually may have some good ideas, but still do not know what is life, nor what is death. The best we can do is to say that, "Something seems to be going on. As I experience it, it seems to be like this . . . " and then we give an opinion based on persnal experiences. And ultimately, that's the end - we just give an opinion.

My experiences seem to include past lives. That ismy opinion. Many other people have told me similar things, that they recall past lives, that they were somebody in another life,  that they can talk to other people's spirits etc. That is their opinion. We cannot test our opinions in a scientific manner because we cannot reach the data from which the opinions arise. Accordingly, it is just as easy to say "I believe" as to say "I don't believe".  And from the objective perspective of science, neither is a fact, but merely an opinion. That's about all we get - there's no way to do an objective proof with it.  Even if we look at the kids who are born knowing things about their neighbors (like where they keep their money) that nobody taught them, we still can't do much more than say that it seems highly unusual.

Personally, I believe that in the beginning, God had an idea, and we're it. At present the idea makes the world look like we see it, together with all of our various selves, so that everyone is living in what amounts to a Divine Dreamworld. The fact that my dreams relate to one another in the same manner as would physical objects doesn't prove that the world is real or materially objective, but merelythat that is how I experience it. The world-in-itself (ding an sich) is forever unknowable in an objective sense.  

My personal view of death is that as we abandon those properties that isolate us from God we merge back into God. Thus, at death, we abandon the idea of being materially living beings until we're ready to get reborn. In this sense, life is a belief system, and so is death, and all that really exists is God. And how do we know that God exists? We actually can't prove that either.

dave

Dave
Interesting.
too many questions. one at a time.

world-in-itself (ding an sich)
what does that imply science is? math?
or is a better question, how did we manage to create a consensus reality that so many can be consistent in and agree on?

Dave,

Your quote


Quote:

Accordingly, it is just as easy to say "I believe" as to say "I don't believe".  And from the objective perspective of science, neither is a fact, but merely an opinion. That's about all we get - there's no way to do an objective proof with it.  Even if we look at the kids who are born knowing things about their neighbors (like where they keep their money) that nobody taught them, we still can't do much more than say that it seems highly unusual. Personally, I believe that in the beginning, God had an idea, and we're it. At present the idea makes the world look like we see it, together with all of our various selves, so that everyone is living in what amounts to a Divine Dreamworld. The fact that my dreams relate to one another in the same manner as would physical objects doesn't prove that the world is real or materially objective, but merelythat that is how I experience it. The world-in-itself (ding an sich) is forever unknowable in an objective sense

Highlight 1,Yes Dave no objective proof is possible, so belief any belief including reincarnation is just held together by faith in it.

Hight light 2 is absolutely in accord with my belief that we are a thought in the mind of god or "small meme in fact"

alan

Dave, very well said. is good to remind ourselves that the only way to navigate life is through whatever we believe, which other's beliefs are of necessity "opinions."
I guess that makes me one opinionated bugger!  ;D

which reminds me of a Bruce story: a lady whom he retrieved lay upon her bed in the afterlife in a deep sleep she lay, perceiving and believing herself quite dead. this was her opinion that got created due to her belief system.
he retrieved her to family and loved ones but it was difficult.

of course, not everyone believes that retrievals are real either!

Lets take it one step further: as we go thru physical life here, the uppermost thought in our minds is what tends to outpicture into physical reality. We are putting our mind to a singular focus on an objective. sooner or later, the more concentration, the faster that goal or objective is reached.
it's like Dave is building a restaurant. It takes more than one day to do that. but if he keeps focusing on getting it done, by jove, it will get done.

I'd say that once we transition we continue to focus on an objective and manifestation is much quicker. however, there's something about eating, sleeping, working, making love, winning and losing, that here in the physical body is gratuitous like no other type of beingness, if for no other reason the relief of making it back home in one piece.
somebody mentioned mankind as an idea of God. Perhaps this is as far as we can get on the subject for the time being. my own studies indicate there is a type of orderly thought process going on which propels me forward with motivation to continue and that everything will turn out ok despite what it looks like at the moment, it always turns itself around, and this at the precise moment we release the wanting to know -right now-.
For my personal reflections there is an inexplicable PUL charge settling over the planet. this is a calming effect for those able to tune into it.
I respect each individuals opinion is my new affirmation  :)
this is merely an opinion, and in no way reflects the opinion of the management!

This is a quote from a work-related survey I took today:


Quote:

In order for this assessment to be accurate, we would appreciate your thoughtful and honest feedback. As you proceed with this study please keep in mind that your perceptions - which we are gathering with the survey questions - are the focus of this study. While perceptions are often based on tangible or scientific facts, other times they are simply impressions and opinions that you carry in your mind. In either case your perception is your reality. In other words, your impressions and opinions are as valid for this study as your actual experience with any of the companies you will rate as you go forward.

Your perception is your reality.

I guess it isn't suprising that a business group would take note of that; advertisers have been perfecting the art of perception-manupulation for quite a while now.

Greetings You All,

If the reality is that we're constructed to meme, then let me meme with you !

<<<PUL>>>

     Bets

       :)

8-)Hi Bets and others,

Dave is correct we must be a construct, thought or meme in the mighty mind of God. So from Gods perspective if he puts us totally out of his mind or memory, we will vanish from existence. Likewise, amazing at it seems from our perspective if we cease to think about God and the universe, they vanish.

So in a strange way "WE ARE GOD AND GOD IS US AS WE ARE ALL OF THE SAME STUFF"

Bets you are already an eternal meme to me!!


alan

hehehe...my computer thinks its a person...listen...blip...dot..dot..ditto...bleep...cough...zzzz...crank...clinka..clinka..

seriously Lucy, I didn't know business's were that smart..

perception is not knowledge. what about emotions? is that perception too? I don't think so. emotion follows perception, in language emotion emphasizes the perception.
such as an exclamation point expresses emotion.

I think we've reached a consensus here of remarkable bearing! say, if one were to say my perception is incorrect, also they would be saying then my emotion is not valid either.

Nobody can say this to another and be correct, that another is not expressing the truth, if the truth is what is true for them. that is a good definition of PUL working.

:-*

quote from Ultra: Before you know, you don't know, and you may not even know that you don't know. When you do know, you know you know. Then, much like all else in life it seems to come down to what is useful or not, whether true and factual or not.  
 It seems that spiritual masters do not make a big fuss about death, reincarnation, NDE's, etc., since for them it is all real, normal, and readily accessible 24 hours a day. They know and they know they know and apparently do not feel the need to put much energy behind the question of proof because it seems (apparently) irrelevant for them.  
________

this point taken "is it useful?"
personally speaking, which how else would I speak? it was useful to believe in what images had come to mind regarding my participation in what I saw as a criminal act upon another, regardless of my justification I gave it. it was useful therefore to make a new decision how I would approach such a problem in this life if my passions got out of hand once more, I would declare, there is a better way to do things. in this way, I could evolve into a better person and cease to repeat behaviors of impulsive nature.
_____

also to the point of the question is not relevant anymore, or the need is not to convince others, but to share my success, in the hopes I am accepted as telling the truth. however, with no need to receive confirmation from others that I tell the truth as a fact to offer to them.
it will never be a scientific fact, because science cannot have a beating heart full of PUL; science can only offer us data..clinka clinka clinka....and numbers.
the only way to announce a fact is if enough of us have the same facts on hand, meaning the same or generally the same type of experiences which make it possible for us to relate to one another.
then it's still not factual in an absolute way, as the nature of life is in constant change, of belief systems, life circumstances, decisions, etc. creative endeavors..plans..

been re-reading something Dave. The Unobstructed Universe by Steward Edward White circa 1940. Dave read this book too. Ultra's references are excellent mentioned for study.

if you are deeply curious about nonphysical dimensional existence, this is as scientific as you will receive and it is a very hard read for the left brain. but worth it.
for those who value the scientific approach to afterlife conjectures, or beforelife, whatever, check out this book; heres some terminologies will boggle you with their explicit detail;

chap 13  time = frequency     chap 14 space = conductivity   chap 15  motion = receptivity
chap 20  Matter - arrestment   chap 23 this dimension's fluidity   chap  it's solidity
chap 26  how space is handled  chap 27 Thoughts are Things  chap 28 Do Your Job!  chap 29 The Continuity of Existence  chap 30 Implications  chap 32 They Shall be Comforted

good book. I'm on it like a fly on .... :)

Well now, Sweet Thang, you mention that you're reading Unobstructed Universe which I fully enjoyed. And you ask if what we're doing is "useful".  

I have two kinds of responses to that. The first is that so long as we can have Crab Louie with Champagne, and make love in the dark by the fire, then whatever helps us to get there is useful.

The other response looks at what it is that we're trying to do. Do we really care what the afterlife is like? Or is this merely an academic exercise in which we enjoy fiddling with ideas? Or does anyone really get off on the notion of perpetual rebirths etc? I'm not sure that there's any benefit in this area for any of us.

To start with, we have essentially no objective data except the occasional, very rare, situations in which someone has unusual abilities and understanding that we are not able to otherwise explain. By not having any other information, the sole way to be certain that we have some idea of the uiverse and its qualities is to model everything, from nothing in the beginning, to the present, in which case we can say that reality lies in that collection of concepts somewhere. That was my approach, and while I can tell you a great deal about the way knowledge is generated, and that there are wholly logical ways in which an afterlife makes sense, I have no more proof than you'd get from flipping a coin or reading tea leaves.

Buddhism looked at the problem, and Siddhartha's solution was to limit himself to the present life. He simply pointed out that because we tend to get hung up with spinning our wheels running processes that don't work, we tend to have frustrating lives. Get rid of the activities that don't work, and we'll feel better, said he, and darned if it isn't true. But that has nothing to do with the afterlife.

However, as we start to look at the various ways in which the universe might be cobbled together, we discover, as Alan said, that were our Source to cease to support us, we must disappear. And, since we manifest God, there is no likelihood of us forgetting God, so God is not dependent upon us, and especially not in the way we depend upon God.

God, however, presents just as great a mystery as anything else in life. Rather than deal with the afterlife, we might simply ask who believes in God. - And conversely, who believes in a reality, with a continuity leading from nothing and nowhere to the present, and how can this be handled except by sincere belief in God? Or, for those who don't like "God" let's use a different term, such as "a Creation", or perhaps "an Uncaused Cause", or even, "thermodynamics of potential states". It's all the same.

At this point I can say with certainty that if you wish for something, you're likely to get it. And that's not because of ignorance, agnosticism or athistic apathy, but because there's some kind of causal and organizational principle behind all this mess that we call Reality. This is testable. Christian Science, regardless of its peculiarities, daily proves that prayer works, and well controlled scientific experiments similarly have proven prayer to be effective as a healing force. These are actual facts that can be chewed on by number crunchers. That being the case, we must extend our beliefs beyond the obvious.

How far do we extend our beliefs? That's the original question, just in a different form, asking what ultimately exists, and why we should have faith that we have a spiritual nature, what can that nature offer us, and where do we go next.

My personal solution is to act as if physical experience is the nec plus ultra criterion of reality. But I also harbor a belief that that cause of all of this is in our emanation from God, as manifestations of God in the world, and that as such, we have an eternal destiny.  This accounts for prayer and lots of other stuff, and it does it without long and involved proofs. The image I have in this is of a world in which we have three basic dimensional aspects, process, structure and relationships. In the material world, these are three separated elements that manifest a dynamic that we take to be the operation of the natural world. This is physics, the study of extended objects.

At the same time, those three same aspects combine together to form an ntegrated whole, which is evidently what we have internalized as our sense of the world. Thus, we have the endless universe inside our heads as an integrated unity, allowing us to conjur up dreams, imagination, hypothetical scenarios, and at the same time, we live in a world in which those same dreams, scenarios and imaginary scenes can be manifested in a way that we recognize as "extended", somehow bringing our inner and outer experiences together.

In this context, I can accept anyone's ideas as essentially correct, at least to the extent that they are an oprganized repetition of either the inside being made outer, or the outer reality being introjected. But this is not a proof, merely it demonstrates that there seems to be at least one way in which we can make sense out of life. There are other ways to make sense as well, so again, we lack proof. For my mind, this is trivial - I'm happy to believe my memories and the reports of unusual things that occur. And if you disagree? Great - glad you have an opinion - But what can this tell you about ultimate states of being?

dave

Dave quote: At the same time, those three same aspects combine together to form an ntegrated whole, which is evidently what we have internalized as our sense of the world. Thus, we have the endless universe inside our heads as an integrated unity, allowing us to conjur up dreams, imagination, hypothetical scenarios, and at the same time, we live in a world in which those same dreams, scenarios and imaginary scenes can be manifested in a way that we recognize as "extended", somehow bringing our inner and outer experiences together.
_____

Dave, Im happy u r here. heres an invalid perspective of life designed to produce mirth. the show must go on despite bad reviews.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/myspace2/image9.jpg
I am eating at your restaurant some day, god willing.

Sorry if I repeat anything already written - I am only new to this group.

Have you read the book 'Journey of Souls' by Michael Newton.   He explores through hypnosis, the journey between each souls life.

Hi Mellie,

A very warm welcome to this forum. If you resontate with Miceal Newtons writings you have arrived at the correct forum. He is well known by many members and repected.

Regards

alan

We are born to die,and die to live.George

These discussions always throw me back to college organic chemistry class, in which the professor explained that in organic chemistry, A depends on B depends on C depends on A. Or at least he put that in the introduction to his monograph that we used in class.  

So that's what I always experience in these discussions, that A depends on...A.

The problem is that was can never go to that place of meta language where we can objectively talk about this stuff. Third law of thermodynamics...We can't get out of the system.

The overriding question to me is, how do we know what we claim we know?

Lucy

Yes everything is subjective nothing is absolute (except perhaps God) So all religious beliefs remain unprovable and must be based on faith.

alan

Hi Lucy  :) you asked , how do we know what we claim we know?  
_____

I think Alan mentioned faith. faith is beyond belief. I'll just throw in that sometimes it just doesn't matter when everything becomes the truth, and nothing good,nothing bad happening.

Indeed faith not fate determines one destiny

alan

thats a good one Alan, faith determines fate. I think that's true  :) I might mention trust is like faith, but not exactly the same. I think faith is stronger, more solid than trust, but the two are definitely related.

it's an energy though rather than a belief system.