More and more, it strikes me that what keeps people wondering......what keeps the discussion and debate going is the nature of physical reality, and the lack of communication with those in the afterlife.  It is very rare for any of us to have a true and verified after death communication (ADC), and certainly this does not occur with regularity for the vast majority of people.  One wonders then, perhaps rightly so, about what Don has termed the "chatty ease" some mediums have of summoning any deceased person and relaying a full two way conversation at almost anytime.

On the one hand, there are explorers who have used meditation, astral travel, hemi-sync and other means to focus their attention and then explore at will.  On the other hand, most of us may enter into conversations with deceased loved ones, and often there is no two way conversation.

I was remembering reading about Mother Teresa and her "dark night of the soul," in which she relayed to various sources that despite her selfless service, she did not feel the connection to the divine - or any affirmation via communication.  It was quite depressing and startling. If anyone, it seemed would be having two way conversations with God and the angels while incarnate......

The fact is that there is something about being incarnate - something about being a consciousness manifesting a physical form, that shuts most of us off from free conversation with discarnate beings.  Bruce has spoken about this as a voluntary constriction of awareness so that the M band radiation of thought and emotion on this planet wouldn't drive us nuts.  Meditation, it seems, can refocus our awareness, if only for brief periods of time.

It is the silence, however that keeps the game going.  Keeps us guessing.  Perhaps it is good.  Perhaps we are meant to live life here in the physical plane.  To express love.  To learn about the creative power of the mind, so that when we die, and are back in a plane of existence of thought, we are better able to control our energies.  Is the physical plane the ideal place to learn and progress spiritually?  That, of course is the assumption of many New Agers.  

Yet in our two way conversations with deceased loved ones, in our attempts at conversation with God and the angels, the silence at the other end of can give any individual pause.  Doubt?  Nonexistence?  The silence brings everything into question.  Some become indulgent or narcissistic, figuring that the silence means life has no meaning, so if it feels good, do it.  Generally, this brings only temporary satisfaction - people who follow this path rarely find fulfillment.

Is the silence at the other end absolute?  Of course not.  Perhaps, there lies our salvation.  Some, like Albert on this board learn to interpret images, brief glimpses of guidance, and find confirmation/affirmation in these experiences.  Some see the synchronicities of life - the way probabilities are changed by our love, hate and interactions with each other as proof of the divinity behind the scenes.  I have written about the power of intent to change reality in the physical plane; I've seen it myself and have had sufficient personal proof to believe that our consciousness can directly affect seemingly random outcomes.  Instead of expecting chatty two way conversations, some of us seek the subtleties of these guiding images or synchronicities - as we engage the silence.

It is said "ask it is given," "seek and you will find," yet a skeptic may openly challenge the existence of the afterlife, claim they have sought, and hear - silence.  

Silence is also what is experienced initially in meditation and hypnosis.  When completely relaxed, sensation from the limbs fades, and as one learns to maintain alertness and wakefulness, one often experiences images, sometimes sounds and other sensations.  Some have termed these images "mental chatter" - something that sounds like an annoyance to be overcome.  

Perhaps we are meant to explore the mental chatter during the silence at the other end of our conversations, in order to transcend the restrictions of our awareness.  One can see the glass as half full instead of half empty.

If Bruce's ADC device, or a Spiricom could become a widespread reality, would we be satisfied?  Or do we somehow need the silence to spur us on to refocus our awareness while incarnate?


M

Hi Doc-
In the sequence of spiritual development, from concentration to meditation to contemplation, I notice that "silence" is one of the presumed criteria for successful meditation and contemplation.  At the level of concentration we tend to fall silent as we become absorbed into the topic we're studying. That is altered if we need to "think about it", so we turn on the brain and bang some ideas around. And when the ideas are resolved, we allow it to again fade to silence.

However, when meditation is sought, the probem is that we tend to side trip into all manner of experiences. Some are the ones covered in concentration that look like fun, some are spectacles of great emotional intensity with either pretty colors, or perhaps horriffic entities. And then there is the rather global orienting tendency that prompts us to occasionally ask what's happening. Only when we can shut these up are we able to go to the next level, which is a level at which the prior distractions no longer make any particular difference. The point is that our internal noise either distracts us or misleads us or simply overwhelms the finer perceptions involved in meditation.

As we approach contemplation, silence is again necessary, and again, the reasons are that our contributions lead away from the transcendental levels to which we aspire, holding us to some prior level of awareness.

There is a dieect activity of will that operates in the absense of self-vocalizations. It is much the same as the will to remove a finger from a flame when it is burned - no thought is required. I've seen people in deep regressions master this ability, and on that basis, they could call up Great Aunt Gussie, or Uncle Willy, and carry on a crude conversation. The information is passed non-verbally, but later is expressed verbally when they are asked about what they're doing.

I find it difficult to imagine an arbitrary medium sittng down and being flooded with conversational ghosts. But in cases in which meditative skills have been mastered, it seems plausible that contacts might be made and reported easily, especially with respect to loved ones and friends. At the same time, it would seem unusual to me for a medium to develop a "chatty two-way conversation" with some arbitrary spook, not previously well known. Perhaps there is an element of projection involved in such cases.

dave

<<The fact is that there is something about being incarnate - something about being a consciousness manifesting a physical form, that shuts most of us off from free conversation with discarnate beings. >>

Well, this raises a few possibilities- (1) The afterlife doesn't exist.  After all, we do need to acknowledge that since the beginning of humans on earth, there is not even one piece of evidence that the afterlife exists.  Lots of anecdotal stuff but nothing that passes the acid test; i.e. evidence that can be replicated.  (2) The afterlife does exist, but it is not in God's scheme to allow us to access it while we are in physical form.  (3) What we call the afterlife is really something completely ineffable, such that our own intellect simply cannot discern its true nature.

Suppose, as just one example, that creation takes many different forms, including physical humans and non-physical beings.  In other words, just because we may be surrounded by non-physical beings doesn't necessarily mean that we will join that realm of existence when we die.  

R

8-)Hi, Doc, Dave and Rondele,

I agree that many so call mediums give the impression they commune with the spirits/souls or passed over loved ones, with ease, and in reality, this is just not the case. Much fishing for information is done by these so-called mediums or chanellers in this sort of way "I get a spirit coming through who could be Alice, Alan, and Albert”, and until someone in the gullible audience says yes that must be aunty “Alberbtina”. Of course, I am aware that many so called contacts with passed over loved ones are sometimes hits due to poor telepathy or outright fraud and deception.

If feel the spiritual mind dimensions or realms of existence are however communicating with us constantly if we would only become more aware, vigilant, observant and listen to all the inputs into our senses both day and night.

Now one of the methods I use sometimes is just to listen to every word I hear during a specific day and write down on paper any word that stands out or lights up from the background dialogue. The same would be from music heard, smells that bring to mind anything, pictures that remind one of something or relate to something. I record all my sensory inputs during the selected day and often listen to the news of events the next day in utter amazement.This takes much effort and enegy and can therefore not be a regular event.

I often feel that I am moving through multiple or alternate realties at every decision I take, every move I make, every word I hear, music, As if these impressions are altering all reality or my own subjective reality from moment to moment. When one can enter, this state is as if I am moving through a slight resisting force-field, wind of ever-changing realities, very hard to explain.

I will go into this means of accessing greater realities tomorrow and report back to you guys on the results via this thread.

Is this just all too vague I have tried to relate as best I can?

Does any of this resonate?

alan

Hi Matthew,

When I read the title of your thread “Silence and the quest…” my initial thoughts turned out to be much different than the content of your thread. To me it is the quest for silence that motivates us. It is the silence that is already within each of us that draws us to it as an answer to the question of who am I? One aspect of my answer is, “I am the silence.” I am also the silent observer.

Roger, in Don’s Heaven thread mentioned that thoughts are things. I agree. The world of thought is not the formless. Our thoughts are just like all of the physical objects we interact with in our physical world. Thoughts are manifested from the formless consciousness of the silence within. I also think that it is the world of form, including thought that interferes with communication in what we call the afterlife. (The afterlife is not really separate from us. Right now in this very moment we simply are life itself… always.)

Other dimensions of our existence also contain form, however the form is increasingly finer in substance as the frequency of vibration is increased. The interesting thing is that form in its finer substance is actually clearer, more vibrant, more intelligent and alive than the way we understand form in our physical world. Everyone can glimpse this aliveness by becoming more aware. Many ways to do that, but perhaps one of the most effective is to simply go fully into what ever is at hand. Or what is popularly called being completely present in the moment. This is a state of mind that automatically raises our consciousness to a point where we are able to perceive what we could ordinarily miss when our identity is caught up in form.

The more we are able to let go of our identity with form, including thought, the more we are able to transform that identity to the silence within.

Love, Kathy

Hello Kathy and all,

My first purpose was to mention how, on the surface, it seems that there is silence in our day to day existence, without clear and evident ADCs (after death communications).  I believe that the silence leads many to believe that there is, in fact no afterlife.  

Then I focused in on silence and found that in meditation and prayer, we are actually trying to achieve this silence or stillness, in order to allow our thoughts to develop.  This then led me to think that there are more subtle communications going on in the subconscious and through synchronicities or "guidance," as some call it, rather than direc ADCs with two way conversations.  

So on the one hand, silence is criticized by many in our plane as being proof that there is not an afterlife.  On the other hand, we use silence to meditate on and refocus our awareness, to verify the afterlife and other thought forms.


Matthew

Seems a bit as if silence is not specifically the modality of awareness, as much as simply not getting involved.  Alan's remarks on intensity and focus certainly don't sound "silent".  Yet while sitting and looking at whatever seems to be happening, silence is the dominant quality through which it is clarified. Of course this suggests the Buddhist dictum, that all we need is to remain unattached in order to avoid suffering - which has nothing to do with the afterlife.

Looking at the reports of bizarre phenomena that people encounter, including what people have told me of their own experiences, as well as reports of electrical disturbances from causes unknown that somehow seem to recall old friends etc - these things tend to neither be silent nor particularly good at communicating. Perhaps that's their value, that we can neither figure them out, nor can we dismiss them.

By taking the converse posture, postulating that there has arisen ex nihilo a potential cosmos, parts of which look like the place that we call everyday reality, gives us the converse answer. Just as we can find reason to piostulate our own existence here as the result of purely chance processes, so too we have the implication of numerous other modalities of existence. One or more of the "other modes" would correspond nicely to an afterlife. The problem here is that we have no constraints by which to set off today's world from that of tomorrow, no distinction between life and death. What we get is a lot of statistical noise - and certainly not a silence in which to clearly identify its nature.

The problem seems to be that in one case we have the external world, from which we can derive no internal facts, and in the other case we have an internal world that cannot be clearly attached to external phenomena. The boundary between life and death seems to be the transition between these two perspectives. But by definition, these are irreconcileable concepts, defined by opposition, not similarity. Perhaps we might ultimately make a stronger argument for an afterlife from the total difference between internal and external states, essentially an argument from parity of the two.

dave

Thanks for the clarification Matthew.

I agree that some criticize the existence of the afterlife because they don’t hear anything except the voice of egoism telling them it is non-existent. Then there are others that tell themselves the afterlife is real, also because of egoism. The chatty two-way communication with a medium could be an example of this. Perhaps it is the voice of egoism and all of its judgments/interpretations that are the greatest barrier for people as well as what really keeps the debate going. lol


Dave, this is an interesting perspective that seems to make some sense.


Quote:

The problem seems to be that in one case we have the external world, from which we can derive no internal facts, and in the other case we have an internal world that cannot be clearly attached to external phenomena. The boundary between life and death seems to be the transition between these two perspectives. But by definition, these are irreconcileable concepts, defined by opposition, not similarity. Perhaps we might ultimately make a stronger argument for an afterlife from the total difference between internal and external states, essentially an argument from parity of the two.

When it comes to mediums, I figure some are fakes, and some actually have abilities. Some have the ability from a young age. I don't know a lot about mediums, but is seems as if people who have such an ability at a young age, had to go through some growing pains while they were young. For example, Rosemary Altea had to deal with scarry visions.

I didn't have the ability to communicate with spirits consciously when I was a child. This is something I developed a few years ago, and I'm almost 50.  I had to go through some growing pains.  I figure that if you're going to have the ability to communicate with spirits, then whether you like it or not this ability will extend to unfriendly spirits.  I believe that contact mostly happens on a like attracts like basis. But sometimes other factors are involved. Going by my experience, some unfriendly spirits are aware of me because of the spirit work I do. In a way it is good that this has taken place, because it has showed me that I don't have to be afraid of them.   It really helps that I wondered about who Christ is and opened myself up to his support.

I don't have to obtain a silent state of mind in order to make contact. It is more of a matter of making an energetic connection.  I went through a lot of energetic work. I believe that part of the reason the spirits I work with took the time to do the extensive energetic work they did on me, is because I let it be known that I'm here to serve. Whatever divine will needs me to do, I'm willing to do it.  

Another way to put this, you don't get something for nothing.  My feeling is that it would be completely wrong for me to receive the spirit support I've received and continue to receive, without having the willingness to give back.

I believe there are cases where the receive and give principle doesn't have to be so extreme. Perhaps a few confirmations and a little advice might be received. But what would be the point of spirit guidance putting a lot of effort into helping a person if that person isn't planning to put such help to use?

This World really upsets me.  There are so many bad things that take place. It upsets me when I think of how many spirits are ending up in lower realms. Sometimes I think that something needs to take place or be done that will really convince people that the afterlife exists so they'll be more resposible about how they live their lives. I doubt that such proof will come in the form of emperical data. Plus there are people who say they believe in the afterlife because of their religion, yet they still do negative things. This shows the importance of love as motivator rather than mental knowledge.  When it comes to an electronic communications device, how will we control who answers on the other end? They might provide some wrong information.

I received some messages which seem to indicate that this World will change for the better not because people are led to believe differently, but because of changes of the heart. Once they open up to love, their minds will follow.  The messages I've received indicate that only a small number of people need to get to the point where they can live according to love completely in order for positive changes to be effected. This is because their increase in vibrational rate will be so major it will cause the vibrational rates of others to increase, these increases will effect others, and so on and so on.  

The same is true when it comes to radiating love. If a small number of people radiate love strongly enough, they'll cause others to radiate it more, who in turn will cause others to radiate more, and so on and so on. As a result less negative energy will be produced. Fewer negative minded spirits will be attracted to this World. Some will be repelled, some will be changed.  Because of the increase in love people will manifest in a more positive way and effect others accordingly.  The overall increased energy level will make it easier for many people to make contact with their spirit friends.

R said:  :)The messages I've received indicate that only a small number of people need to get to the point where they can live according to love completely in order for positive changes to be effected. This is because their increase in vibrational rate will be so major it will cause the vibrational rates of others to increase, these increases will effect others, and so on and so on.  
____

same here. same message I received. PUL is like a virus with no known antidote. its contagious, it also enables a mind expansion which includes being able to tune into another mind in the universe with this energy which is intelligent. If you have the wrong intention, meaning, it would be entirely selfish and not be in someone's best interest to be prying, then PUL does not let you gain access because PUL is not there as the intention.
Is why the best prayer procedure is to always say "for the highest good of all concerned, I wish to connect with...(or gain knowledge of) fill in the blank.

because sometimes we can create what we don't want also by not asking for God's perfect will. we don't even know what we want until we ask ourselves, what do we want?
I've done that. asked for something from the universe, got it, didn't want it after all, because I had forgotten to ask for and include the other or others highest good along with my own suppositions.
this creates faith which is a creative power. This is why they say one person can change the world for the better. and don't forget science...the 100th monkey is born already knowing what the others had to learn by trial and error.

Doc said: One can see the glass as half full instead of half empty.
_______
I made a post before I read Doc's thread where he said the above. I used the exact phrase. I thought that was more than a coincidence that on the same day we both used that phrase, and I had not read his yet. some will not see meaning there. but it's evidence to me of how we are all connected here. I rarely see this analogy come up.

Alysia:

Regarding the 100th monkey, I don't know the whole story, but I read where studies were done where monkeys on one island would learn to do something, and then monkeys on another island would quickly follow. Some kind of collective mind in play.

recoverer wrote on Apr 1^st, 2008 at 3:38pm:

Alysia: Regarding the 100th monkey, I don't know the whole story, but I read where studies were done where monkeys on one island would learn to do something, and then monkeys on another island would quickly follow. Some kind of collective mind in play.

thats even better, if thats what u read, because it means if monkeys have a collective mind they share, so do humans. I thought it was the next generation of monkeys that acquired the new knowledge; maybe the location in geological sense is not relevant if this connection be non/physical.
R quote:
Going by my experience, some unfriendly spirits are aware of me because of the spirit work I do. In a way it is good that this has taken place, because it has showed me that I don't have to be afraid of them.   It really helps that I wondered about who Christ is and opened myself up to his support.
_______


doing a take off this: initially at age 18, I was contacted by what seemed at the time unfriendly spirits..later I saw that I could use the experience to learn how they instructed me to make a choice for the Christ, or PUL factor, which I now see as basically the same concept, and so what seemed unfriendly was beneficial. later, I learn fear creates images in the mind, so it's easy for me to say, don't be afraid of what you don't know about. I mean, in retrospect or hindsight. so what R did is to lose fear, which is, I would say is a very good thing, as we say here, PUL and fear are opposites...you cannot be fearful while experiencing PUL, but while experiencing fear, you cannot experience the love that is there. However, there is the matter of the will which entails choosing either love or fear in any given moment of any day. This is mental, that we recognize we essentially can make use of our will in alignment with this concept:

There is nothing to fear if we believe we were created by God, and did not create our own beingness. As a Father/creator is Perfect Love, Father/creator only wants all good to come to the child. therefore fear is not essential to enlightenment if faith in God is adhered to in all circumstances.

In this sense, miracles which do happen will in the future happen more regularly and eventually become so commonplace and even expected by the masses, that the shift in consciousness will be accomplished for all much easier than today. the shift to mean, we will all know of our continuity in other dimensions, known here as the afterlife. What I consider a miracle in this day and age, is any showing of PUL, even by myself, as well as others. for it changes one's perspective automatically.

This heightened awareness, lends itself to a heightened enjoyment of one's life. and also I wanted to mention Doc's thread of thought regarding silence.

I thought of music, how there is silence between each note, that you cannot have just a constant sound wave, and call that music. so the silence between the notes is important to capture the melody, just like you cannot splash color on anything but a blank canvas to make an image.

so then I thought of the way we blink on and off from meditation back to C1 practical level.
I conjecture Doc, the silence and the noise support each other's existence. I think you said that already. so I'll shut up..lol....love, alysia

I just did an internet search and found a wikipedia article that discredits the 100th monkey theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_Monkey

I don't really care if it's false. I trust the messages I've received and the feelings I have.

One message was as follows: I experienced myself in a land that was presented as a rectangular plain of existence. This was also a symbol for the World.  A person errupted as white light because this person learned how to live according to love completely. It didn't take long for this love and white light to expand to the rest of the plain.  I then very firmly received the words: "Believe it!"

On another occasion I received a message which had something to do with the second coming. I asked for details. I was shown a plastic tub that was partially filled with little chocolate chip cookies. I know this isn't obvious, but by connecting this image to past messages I've received I was able to tell that it symbolized a minimal number of people getting the point where they live according to Christ consciousness/love.  I figure there were about 40 to 50 cookies in the tub. Next I was shown an image of Jesus Christ on a cross.  This wasn't a plastic crucifix. It was an image of the man Jesus.  He was leaning forward as far as the stakes in his hands and feet would allow him to do so.  I got the feeling that he is experiencing a heavy burden with trying to help this World, and some of us need to help him. The best way we can do so is by elevating our consciousness level.

A while ago I shared how I saw and heard three planets blow up one right after the other. The first blew up into rocks. The second into fire. The third into white light. I figure the third represented the World becoming a place of love and light.

I've received other messages that make the same point.

I suppose R, one has to trust their own personal guidance above what is found in Wikipedia or even against other respectable person's opinions and/or guidance; otherwise who can u trust if not your own self?
For me it's the truth coming in if there are emotional and/or body reactions to truth. As perhaps a thud feeling in the solar plexus is my indication I'm receiving something authentic.

there was this meditation I did once which produced an image not unlike your rectangular light expansion image/message.

I don't remember why this image stuck in my head as I'm no bible scholar for sure. there's one story in there of Mary Magdalene, I believe thats her name. I saw images of her crawling on the ground, trying to get through the crowd..they wouldn't let her get next to JC as he walked along, she may have been pushed down, not sure, finally she touched just his robe and was instantly healed.

I thought later about the human aura, the energetic field which surrounds each and every human being, usually invisible to the retina eye, but can be seen with the 3rd eye on occassion. This would have extended out quite a ways from JC as the Light factor, mentioned in your vision. Scientist will say we are basically energy beings, or we can say we are the light, after the shadow thoughts have been transmuted, then the light is enhanced.

so she touched not him, just his clothing, but it was energy she touched. then he turned as he felt the touch and knew she had been healed, and he said "by your faith it has been done." then I saw, yes, she knew she was close to being healed and ready for that. I think I remembered this story because of my interest in laying on of hands early in life.

later, I heard there are some on Earth whose graduation is imminent and their field can be several miles, if we are thinking in terms of geography; or we might conjecture these human fields of influence, of light substance are like a matrix within the collective mind areas.
It makes being blinded by the light, it makes sense in a way. So, yes, we are still saying one person can living according to Christ/PUL and that would be like enlightenment if we believed what we were seeing. I think we need to believe before we start seeing it.
then most will say seeing is believing. perhaps then the physical eye is not able to see.

Monroe saw a being in vision, was much too bright even for the 3rd eye to gaze upon, so the being toned it down for him, they then could have a discussion.

Alysia:

Personal guidance over Wikipedia? Naw, shudder the thought! ;)

I like your story with the lady. Truly relates to the messages I've received.  Each of us gets to decide for ourselves.  

Regarding a person's energy field being a few miles, I figure this is one way of looking at it, but it probably goes beyond. How precisely does the energy of love radiate? If it travels like light it would travel at the speed of light? That's 186,000 miles per second. It may be that a person can radiate a lot of love in a short period of time. He or she simply needs to become a good radiator who doesn't radiate anything else.

Regarding a matrix,  it may be that one can't figure how love is radiated according to physical dimensions. Perhaps this is why we were shown plains instead of Worlds.  Perhaps the World really is flat. :)

Hi I sometimes do not go out of my way to contact spirit,i just get things coming in from spirit but i'm always doubting myself but at the same time knowing that i am getting it information from spirit,i had a message from my dad from a very genuine medium a couple of nights ago and dad said through this medium that if i dont stop worrying and getting stressed most the time like i do i will be making myself really ill and he said also worrying myself to death,so now i feel my dad's given me a warning here so i'm looking at things in a different light and i'm now taking each day as it comes instead of worrying about the tommorows and keeping the stress level down.

Everyone is a medium,its just knowing how to open up to it,my friend has been getting this viking hanging around him and because he didnt understand this i tuned into this viking and described him how he looked to my friend and it was exactly how he saw him and i also got his name which was woden,well i was getting woden and my friend was getting oden but i feel that this viking could be his spirit guide and i asked my friend to open up to this viking and when he did this viking showed him this tree of life and told my friend he was to plant seeds but my friend does not quite know what this viking means yet but he will eventually get to know,its like everything it takes time.

There were these ducks walking along this pathway down near the coast and because i wanted to take a photo of them,i walked up to them and asked them if they would stop and let me take there photo,so they looked at me and stood there while i took it and then i said thankyou to them and they walked on.
The other night i heard these cats crying and i looked out of my bedroom window and i saw this black cat and this brown cat faceing each other and just as the black cat was going to attack the brown cat,i said to them really gently,"Dont fight,whats the point in fighting"and the black cat just looked at me ,they both did and they just walked away from each other and went there seperate ways and i just knew they understood what i said to them.

What I'm saying here is we are all connected to each other and animals as well,it is there in all of us and it is there in animals as well,i can almost say with certainty that there is an afterlife,i've seen my dad's spirit hoovering on top of him in his coffin smileing at me,i've seen him lots of times plus other spirits as well,i really feel that we can communicate with each other through mind thought and animals on the physical plain as well as in the spiritworld,when i came out of my body i had never felt vibration like i felt when that happened,i came out of my body so quick,the vibration was very loud.I feel that i personally have had so much proof that life exists beyond death but some never get that proof because they dont open up to it.

Love and God bless    love juditha

Juditha's posts always interest me, as she exemplifies most mediums. My tendency has been to emphasize the differences between the inner world and the outer world, but in mediumship there is a transcendence of this difference. As compared to the difference between looking outward and looking inward, mediumship seems to present a sideways perspective from a place slightly beyond either of the other extremes. Juditha mentions the dynamic sense of coming out of her body, a close simile.

It would appear that the internal world selects the dynamic by which life is experienced, while the external world imposes conditions and circumstances. In the act of living, both the external circumstances and internal dynamics change, Mediumship seems to require that the viewpoint be placed where both internal and external factors can be understood together.  Of course we do this from our posture in life, but we do it by looking in the mirror of history, like driving backwards down a freeway. Perhaps mediums could be said to look forward into the space of potential futures and events not yet realized. Then the proof of the transcendental quality would be in the total separation between inner and outer states, and that mediumship has bridged this separation, and proof of the afterlife would rest on the quality of the insights obtained.

This is the usual problem of evaluation of the medium's insights. Putting that aside for a moment, the posture from which the insights are obtained is significant of itself. We have evidence that, regardless of the quality of the perceptions produced, there is a viewpoint which lies outside of and beyond the distinction of inner and outer realities, and from that viewpoint the two extremes are somehow unified. This is easy in abstract math, we just shuffle the elements of the sets around. In life, however, this looks like a violation of the basic idea that the inner and outer worlds are different. In that violation we can find an excellent basis to argue that there must be some kind of experiential space associated with both extreme views. And we call that the "spirit world" or the "afterlife" or some such name.

In other words, because there appears to be a total distinction between objective and subjective reality, the fact that there can be mediums who capture both sides at once suggests that there are transcendental states, and thus that there will be some kind of transcendental reality, whatever its nature.  In personal terms, when we first sit in meditation and suddenly obtain a vision that brings in new information not available from the material world, we tend to feel, "Hey - There's really something out there." I suggest that this is essentially the same thing - we come to recognize the existence of something lying "beyond", and we do that by discovering insights for that perspective.

dave

Matthew,

As you know, there are various methods and modes of allegedly contacting the dead.  Some (e. g. channeling) may be very limited in their potential for genuine contact.  Others may be best suited to contact spirits from certain postmortem levels, but not other levels.  In this regard, the often conflicting astral "geographies" may be seriously flawed.  There is the constant danger of confusing genuine astral states with illusory lucid dream states and their equivalents in waking hallucinatory states.  Given these problems, here is my proposal.  

The astral "geography" and verifiability of contact should be studied as if each method were the only valid method.  Patterns of differences gleaned by explorations with each method should be initially distinguished from the astral picture implied by the other methods (e. g. phasing with or without OBEs, waking and sleeping OBEs, NDEs, ADCs, EVPs, channeling).  Only the patterns are important because of the danger of fraud or psychopathology as an explanatory factor.  A synthetic approach should await the results of an atomized approach.  I would be interested in how readers might expand on (1-(10):

(1) Besides Robert Bruce's OBEs and Emanuel Swedenborg's astral travels, which types of
    exploration most often encounter discarnate spirits who seem memory-impaired?  Note:
    I appreciate that explorers like Albert trust their own contrary astral perceptions.  But in
    my view, even personal experience must defer to the insights of proven experts with
    superior verifications.  Crucial issues must be addressed here: Are experiences like
    Albert's delusory?  Or does Albert's method unwittingly tap into the unconscious memories
    of discarnate souls without those souls being aware of this?  Or does Albert encounter
    spirits in a particular phase (e. g. past life review) or spiritual level that is uniquely
    conducive to communication?
(2) Is this apparent impairment best explained in terms of the limited imagination of the
    explorer who is concocting contacts and lacks the creativity to unconsciously create an
    extended conversation?  Or is the impairment best explained in terms of adjustment
    problems in communicating on a plane with a different vibration?
(3) ADCs are far more common during the first year after the passing of a loved one.  
    What methods most often produce truly impressive contacts after a one-year duration?    
(4) Which methods allow detailed communication with these spirits about their earth lives?  
(5) How often, if at all, do any methods (besides channeling) provide long sequential reports
    of a typical "day," or rather, "serious of activities" in their new astral lives?  
(6) Which methods imply that the deceased can monitor the earth lives of their loved ones
     sporadically or on a continual basis?
(7) To what extent does the astral locale of the newly deceased (hellish plane, hollow
     heaven, Paradise [Focus 27?], higher heaven) affect their capacity to monitor the lives of
     their earthbound loved ones or to engage in verifiable communiction with them?
(8) To what extent, does the way a spirit passes over (accident, murder, protracted ailment)
    affect his/ her potential to engage in ADCs?
(9) To what extent, do people who are otherwise psychically gifted experience the best
    verifications and chatty dialogues with the deceased?
(10) To what extent, can each method engage astral spirits in an extensive discussion of
      problems such as (1)-(9)?  If not, why not?

Don

Quick feedback to Beserk's questions from a clinical perspective-
1 - in regressions, everyone seems to be one-tracked, no breadth, memory only when directly reminded of things
2 - My problem is adjustment to the level at whch the respondent operates - I tend to remain unaware of what they are experiencing, even though I giuide the session
3 - I get uniformly good results with guided meditation or deep hypnosis
4 - Communication is always through the respondent who is doing the regression
5 - Unless caused by something, I rarely hear a report of "how it is in the astral"
6 - I ask if they are always in touch with us, they answer yes.
7 - The afterlife level never seemes to be important to those I've asked about being aware of us, but the number I've asked is quite small - maybe a dozen or so.
8 - My experience is that those with the heaviest karmic burdens are the most likely to have subsequent psychic phenomena in their lives in this world, and to be more likelt to have karmic phenomena in their afterlife activities as well
9 - I dunno.
10 - It appears as if the spirits avoid issues that are uncomfortable. They have to be pointed out, asked about, or otherwise brought to them. One broached, however, spooks seem capable to talking about their issues.

dave

Regarding the below:

There is one main spirit I communicate with. This spirit doesn't tend to identify itself. There have been times I've asked it to identify itself and it wouldn't. This puzzled me until I finally figured out that once I made contact with Christ, I should've understood that he has taken responsibility for me. He has made his presence obvious to me a number of times.  For a while I thought that perhaps other guides are also involved. Perhaps such a need became unnecessary once I opened myself up to Christ's guidance.

Christ doesn't tend to provide me with information about cosmologies.  Most of the information I receive relates to my spiritual growth. Some of it relates to how I help out with retrievels and such. I do so in a manner that is different than how Bruce teaches.  Christ has given me messages that there are unfriendly spirits who need to be dealt with and things need to be done to make this World a better place. I've also received the understanding that Christ has divine authority to an extent that goes beyond what new age teachings are often willing to attribute to him. This might not make sense when related to what Robert Monroe and Bruce found, but I found differently.

I also make contact with other spirits, but not to the extent that I make contact with Christ.  Occasionally unfriendly spirits will drop by to say things such as "I'm going to kill you, I hate you, You're a f.....g ass...e Albert." They basically try to intimidate me because they want me to stop growing spiritually and want me to stop providing the spirit help I provide.  I don't believe I need to be concerned with them because I feel as if I am within the body of Christ.

Some people might believe that I'm experiencing according to some belief system. I know differently.  There is no way that my imagination could instruct me in the manner that Christ has instructed me. There is no way that my imagination could've helped me to the extent that Christ has helped me.



Berserk2 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2008 at 10:02pm:

Matthew, (1) Besides Robert Bruce's OBEs and Emanuel Swedenborg's astral travels, which types of     exploration most often encounter discarnate spirits who seem memory-impaired?  Note:     I appreciate that explorers like Albert trust their own contrary astral perceptions.  But in     my view, even personal experience must defer to the insights of proven experts with     superior verifications.  Crucial issues must be addressed here: Are experiences like     Albert's delusory?  Or does Albert's method unwittingly tap into the unconscious memories     of discarnate souls without those souls being aware of this?  Or does Albert encounter     spirits in a particular phase (e. g. past life review) or spiritual level that is uniquely     conducive to communication? Don

hi all, I don't think I can add much to this thread by way of helpfulness unless I started writing another book here and I'll spare you that! :) lucky people you.

I'll just comment on R's quote: Some people might believe that I'm experiencing according to some belief system. I know differently.  There is no way that my imagination could instruct me in the manner that Christ has instructed me. There is no way that my imagination could've helped me to the extent that Christ has helped me.
_____

R is expressing the difference between "knowing" and mere postulation or conjecture. If I consider what I learned through Bruce's book regarding the use of the imagination in order to contact the nonphysical beings, we are shown the value of imagination to be used as a doorway into this other very real dimension of spirit.
what is the imagination? is it merely a function of mind that produces images? I think the imagination is something a child possesses until they begin to lose that by fitting into as society dictates they should. I think imagination is an indication of an open mind. It is receptive to creativity.
When contacting nonphysical persons either of high or low character, or just their thoughts, the open mind will receive only what it is conducive to receive, only what it can handle.
otherwise you have the mentally disoriented who are a little too open and cannot close down. and another question of my own, what did JC mean when he said one must become as a little child to enter the kingdom? I think he meant to learn how to pretend, and by doing so, we create our own reality here on Earth.

it happens rarely that a gifted person will be overwhelmed by psychic impressions by being too open, so we can be thankful for that. back to the imagination, I used it in an experiment, and followed the instructions "to pretend." to pretend it was real. this allowed me to go beyond the aid of the imagination into getting my verifiable info which I could establish with another person as useful and of import in both of our spiritual personal growth. there seems to be a place the mind can enter which is placid, like a smooth lake, to say, where impressions on this lake can reverberate and these impression be brought into waking consciousness and interpreted then.

the images themselves need translation. Correct perception of these images and other phenomenon we encounter has a direct link to PUL in the emotional body. the heart opens as does the mind open. these are direct energetically spinning vortex's upon the body. most commonly known as chakras.

JC instructed us to have brotherly love, loving one another as you would your own self. If this is accomplished, it also becomes a mental development of willingness to Love. This would be a soul fruit.
PUL, allowed to be consistent in the mental activity as well speeds up all the chakras to spin, and become even more receptive to all phenomenon of natural and psychic implication.
An expansion principle is PUL. This is how JC performed healings, through his love. It is what he wanted the others to do.

the problem with being beyond all doubt, having your knowings, is that knowings cannot be shared to the full extend that the experience happened to that person.
thats because each must come into their own. the curriculum is individualized. What we try to do here is good though, because we search out the commonalities.
the concentrating or focusing on the commonalities will yield up more verifiable information because we are inviting more knowledge to come in due to being open of mind and heart.

Sensitive people, or psychics are not with impaired faculties; they are simply finely tuned instruments resonating to finer energies. It does not surprise me at all the JC would come and collect him.
JC does not exclude a single soul in the universe insofar as the truths he imported. but not everyone is willing to lay down their life for JC and follow him.

I do wish I could hear more of your report on your night in heaven R. However, words fall short of most any activity here, so I won't ask!  :)
matter of fact I like to read any first hand accounts here above analyzing as then I can draw my own conclusions about what truth is being told.
love, alysia

Hi dave recoverer aylsia and don matthew I have just got home after having healing and as Tracey touched me i saw Jesus standing next to her and he placed his hands over Tracey's and as he did this i had this loud ringing sensation in my head and as Jesus left her this ringing sensation stopped and when my healing was finished,Tracey told me that the spirirt of my little girl who i had lost was standing next to her and Tracey said that she had said a prayer to Jesus this morning ,telling him she needed him and thats why he probably joined in with her healing for a while.

I  also had had a dream that i was walking through this beautiful place,full of white light and as i was walking ,i could see everywhere that i looked these beautiful angels,i feel good since i had that out of body because there was my own proof we do have a spirit and that is a certainty,my dad has tapped on my forehead and i have felt it,he's kissed me on the cheek and that kiss felt like a cold sting,my dad has made my music centre play a cd and has made the volume go up and down.

Thanks dave for saying my posts are interesting.                  love and God bless       love juditha

Alysia:

First of all, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding that I was questioning Bruce's imagination technique.  I applied his technique during retrievels early on. While meditating or laying in bed awake, I would suddenly see a person who seemed to be in distress.  Their image would dissapear and I would get the feeling that perhaps I should do a retrievel.  I'd start off by imagining myself having a conversation with them and within a few seconds I'd find myself at some location interacting with them and events would take place without my directing them.  I was able to verify some information early on, but stopped doing so once it was established that the spirit helpers I work with aren't going to send me on wild goose chases.

In the physical World imagination doesn't seem to be a significant tool because reality is "sort of" fixed. In spirit realms things are more flexible so spirit beings interact and use their imagination to co-create whatever it is they experience. This is part of the reason I believe the imagination technique works. It is a good launch technique. I will qualify this by saying that if spirit helpers don't have it in mind to work with a person who is using the imagination technique, such a person might experience what he or she creates. Perhaps such a person will experience nothing at all.

I don't provide a lot of details about my night in heaven experience because I wasn't brought on a tour. It seems that the experience served the purpose of letting me know that God, Christ in a key role and the afterlife are realities, that the happiness level at higher realm level is wonderful, and that everything else works out wonderfully in the end.

I've had a number of other experiences. Sometimes I would simply be shown different locations that seem to belong to the spirit World. Beautiful landscapes with lots of light, sometimes locations that include buildings and very nice landscaping. Sometimes people could be seen within these areas.  These experiences seem to be third eye experiences rather than full blown out of body experiences. I used to have OBEs with all the effects, but now I either travel in a mental body/third eye kind of way, or I go OBE during a lucid dream, sometimes without the dream occuring first.

The other night I had a lucid dream that turned into an OBE. I could feel a guide behind me as this took place. I heard him speak with a male voice.  We flew into space and reached sort of a city that was in space. I say sort of, because it appeared in a beautiful way that is hard to describe. Yet, it was also kind of comical. I believe the comical part was a way of saying that the visual part of higher realms play a minor part compared to the love that is experienced.

Next we were in a building within the city I saw. We were by a stairwell that had a wall that displayed images that represent the diffferent realms. I noticed an image of the lower realms. It was purposely designed so you could see that it represented lower realms without having to show the negativitiy of a lower realm.  This stairwell led into a bookstore. People from the spirit World were within it. I asked my guide if spirits think about human history much once they reach the final goal.  I can't remember exactly what my guide said, but he basically said that sometimes spirits do, but not much.

Here is the reason for the above experience. I've been figuring lately that all periods of time happen in the same "now." Therefore, a point will be reached where all spirits will find that deluded existence no longer exists.  All spirits will live completely according to love and divine wisdom. I was figuring that after a while there would be no need to think about what it was like when one was human. Can you imagine dwelling on your current incarnation billions of years from now? For what purpose? The knowledge you gained will play a role, but the memories themselves probably wouldn't be something that you would want to dwell on.

During my night in heaven experience I had the feeling that there was nothing to worry about, because all problems had been taken care of.  To me this means that there aren't any spirits who still abide in a state of darkness, because all of us, or most of us if the viewpoint of soul destruction is true, obtain a perfected state in the same "now."  Any negative experience we went through while going through the learning process has been overcome in a manner so it no longer effects us in a negative way. That's why a lower realm was displayed in a manner that no longer appeared overly negative.  

When I say that my guide was behind me, I don't believe that his entire being was behind me.  He simply made things appear that way.  

Most of my experiences serve the purpose of instruction rather than being a tour of some kind.  

hi all, Juditha, we can discuss some of our commonalities and I really like the way you have been giving more of yourself here..all these words we type  :P sometimes we don't know if it helps...but it does!

you mentioned the feeling of cold from the kiss..I and others have experienced the "cold" of this spirit realm. it is a verification to ourselves upon the body itself. a mark of the body resonated to this different energy but no one can explain it sufficiently yet. I know about the ringing sensation, this indicates a body sensation as well to more subtle energies in our physical world we most often don't hear or feel, yet a lot of people report buzzing and ringing. I wonder if this is like having on occassion the hearing facility of like a dog has? I always wanted to make of it something more than just ringing. I would say, "yes? who's calling please?" Never hear voices at those times so conclude it's random energy. but I believe you when you say it's related to JC, because that's the image you received and he is in this world, despite we might doubt that he would be interested still (my thought) why would he NOT be interested in all of us? lol.
no, R, I have no misunderstanding that you question the imagination technique. It's not a technique Bruce invented but a part of his self discovery, so we are naturally inclined to question all techniques anyway. btw there are many books on the imagination out there. Here's one published in 1946 by Neville, called Awakened Imagination. I just see all these books as different ways of saying the same thing for all of us.  when I blog here I'm not speaking to anyone personally usually, unless I preface it with their name. I am speaking most the time to unseen people, people who don't know what a retrieval is, or who are thinking this physical life is all there is.
you already have your knowings in that area, so you don't need me! its nice not to be needed sometimes!

thats neat, it seems I was able to get u to talk about retrievals..haha! I always wanted to extract some of your plateful.... :) that is how retrievals are done by the classical standard..an image appears and we seemed to just be there and we ask first for the guide. I would often have to "pretend" a guide was there, but sometimes I could see and hear them and have actual conversation. those were the very best retrievals of all for my own verification. there doesn't have to be full blown obe anymore, yet full blown allows a feeling that "all of your identity" is present and accounted for. I don't knock the obers who aren't phasing. We need reports on all of it.
my first retrieval was full blown obe, the obes have more sense of realness which leaves no question for doubt.  yet the mind does not need a body form in order to travel and collect and retrieve. so phasing is the new item.

when I first began retrievals, I would go to my "place" that I had imagined. I made a beach house where retrievers in training sat around in chairs, lol, waiting for a guide.
I've graduated from having to go there first. but anyone who's interested in doing retrievals could start with building such a place.  I seemed to know I was making it up but went with the fun feeling of doing so anyway. a surprise awaited me once when I went to my beach house. I found Monroe discussing something with several students, casually, in the living area.
I thought it most curious he was in "my" place. couldn't quite believe it. I started circling him to see if he was real. lol. he noticed me circling him and called my name. who me? I was not full blown obe, so the sense of unreality was there also. I did finally move in closer to him but only picked up a feeling of his personality, of a quality like magnanimity.

# noun:   liberality in bestowing gifts; extremely liberal and generous of spirit.

that was the end of that exploration. A couple days or weeks later, due to this first exploration I was working around the house one day when I got a feeling of this signature of his again and the impression was he wanted me to sit down and listen to spirit. Again, a casual feeling came over me.
I sat down and a blurred face appeared in my mind smiling. the smile was catching and appeared as a mere greeting. I totally did not expect this meeting.
Some of these experiences unravel and feel so normal and easy and without any effort whatsoever, yet I knew it was my beach house imagining that had created this "more real" experience in the now.

all he imparted was not that much to talk about here. it was impressions of conversation; like he knew I'd never come to him, so he came to me because I had the desire, and I wouldn't use the desire due to low self esteem at the time. he delivered boost. PUL. said things a friend would say to another.
like "you're doing swell." keep it up. it was nice. It's like the feeling that all will be well and everything is proceeding on schedule, that sort of feeling, that R was expressing when he encountered JC.
It gives soul confidence. I try to pass it on.

Some like the ocean. Some build a place in the mountains. It really doesn't matter as long as one is imagining and it's like building blocks of the mind.

so sometimes it seems we are experiencing a fantasy world. Yet to continue with the fantasy, one reaches a bridge to cross; the crossing of the bridge leads to more verification and begins to leave the doubts behind until finally, all doubts are gone and there is left a single knowing of being on the right track. this knowing gives rest to striving after knowledge yet gives momentum in the area of taking greater risks in exploring the unknown because you soon know there is safety in PUL.

Juditha, you are doing the right thing to share the connections you make with spirit, with your dad, and JC, etc. from my studies I have applied, the way to increase the kingdom is by sharing.
If we don't give it away to others, it will not increase.
so no matter what spit flies back in your face...I mean when trouble comes as you're trying to speak your truth and being misunderstood sometimes...you cannot be quiet about what you know. thats why I admire you.
love, alysia