Just wondered if any of the experts on here had any more information from their own explorations regarding Bruce's theory of "Recent exploration has uncovered a sort of permanent death. It is extremely rare, perhaps one in several billions of people makes a choice that leads to this" which is mentioned in the FAQ's on this site & is covered in his book 'Voyage to Curiosity's Father'? I've read all of Bruce's books plus the Robert Monroe books & they all contain plenty of positive information but its depressing to hear we survive death but can still cease to exist in the afterlife! Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts regarding this?

Thanks

jla,

Afterlife claims are contaminated by so much self-delusion, wishful thinking, and gullible fluff.
So it is very important to seek out insights that find independent corroboration from multiple sources that are very different from each other both in terms of overview and method of discovery.  Bruce's insight about the annihilation of some souls finds independent corroboration in both NDEs and the Bible.  During atheist Howard Storm's NDE, "Jesus and the angels" inform him that some souls elect the option of soul annihilation to escape their postmortem misery.  In the Biblr this option is verified by Romans 9:22 and Philippians 3:22 where the Greek noun "apoleia" connotes soul "annihilation."  

Don

no never ever.

Don-

I think it was Ruth Montgomery who said that some souls elect to "wink out" as the phrase her guides used.  The question related to Hitler, the condition of his soul, although the answer didn't directly apply to him as I recall.

Of course her guides also predicted the earth would shift on its axis causing worldwide upheavals and mass deaths, and it would happen before Y2K.

Greetings,

This sort of annihilation is apparently a result of many, many horrendous earlier decisions.
It's not like Uncle Joe grumpily saying that he wishes he were dead so Kaboom!

Many Guides and Helpers, various levels of spiritual intelligence, are availalble to counsel
a soul on how to overcome past mistakes.
They aren't giving out free passes to oblivion.  :)

Bets

jla wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:04pm:

Just wondered if any of the experts on here had any more information from their own explorations regarding Bruce's theory of "Recent exploration has uncovered a sort of permanent death. It is extremely rare, perhaps one in several billions of people makes a choice that leads to this" which is mentioned in the FAQ's on this site & is covered in his book 'Voyage to Curiosity's Father'? I've read all of Bruce's books plus the Robert Monroe books & they all contain plenty of positive information but its depressing to hear we survive death but can still cease to exist in the afterlife! Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts regarding this? Thanks

 I'm not completely sure, but in my other life explorations and regarding one particular personality i have a fairly strong hunch that this possibly happened to one of my selves.  

  The Planet Saturn is said in the Edgar Cayce readings, to represent this kind of Soul death experience.   Not the physical planet that we see with our eyes, but the nonphysical dimension and consciousness within its form.  

 My sense of it, agrees with what you quoted Bruce as saying, i feel its thankfully pretty rare.

You can't lose in the Afterlife Game.

Yours, Jack

Ian and Griffin,

Welcome to the board.  Here contrasting opinions and experiences are welcome.  However, simple dogmatic assertions contribute nothing to discussions unless they are backed up by some sort of justification or illustrated by your experiences.  We really want to know why you feel the way you do and/ or how your views have been shaped by your experiences.

Don

Don-

The problem is largely generational.

We older folks have been around long enough to know that we don't know.

We have questions, they have answers.  A never-ending cycle.

R

Don,

My reply is based on your selective reading of the bible



I simply do not agree that we can ever cease to exist, as we are made in the image of God and are thus eternal spirits that will exist somewhere forever. There are everlasting consequences for both good and depraved acts done in this mortal school we call life.

The words of Jesus carry the real authority not Paul or the others, read what he said again. Jesus was emphatic about both eternal life in heaven or eternal banishment in hell.

alan

I have an instant resistance to any idea which carries a sense of permanence.

Eternal anything....I don't see it around me....life ebbs and flows, comes and goes.

Eternal nothing.........it's already here, but does it matter?

love, blink

Hi Blink Dear,

Yes, absolutely the concept of non-ceasing everlasting existence is indeed very frightening when one thinks deeply about it. However, we have the equal horror that most people fear is cessation of existence.

Everlasting existence where time does not exist is not nearly as frightening to embrace, is it


alan

Your Quote


Quote:

I have an instant resistance to any idea which carries a sense of permanence.   Eternal anything....I don't see it around me....life ebbs and flows, comes and goes. Eternal nothing.........it's already here, but does it matter? love, blink

alan

So, true, Alan. Everlasting existence where time does not exist is certainly helpful, as a concept.

From my own experiences in meditation I am completely convinced that every person has a pure point of consciousness which lives within them. Just because a person may not yet have attained visible qualities here, within the grasp of our individual awareness, which certain people in their environment deem worthy, does not mean that this point of consciousness does not exist.

Therefore, it seems almost a moot point to insist that the swirling, chaotic existence of "personality traits" here on earth, subject to the influences of friends, family, environment, genetics, history, etc. etc., are the basis of "God's" judgement.

I feel that, if it is true that there is a judgement for each of us, that it is beyond the scope of our understanding, which you have stated more than once.

love, blink

[Alan:] "My reply is based on your selective reading of the bible.  I simply do not agree that we can ever cease to exist, as we are made in the image of God and are thus eternal spirits that will exist somewhere forever. There are everlasting consequences for both good and depraved acts done in this mortal school we call life.  The words of Jesus carry the real authority not Paul...Read what he said again. Jesus was emphatic about both eternal life in heaven or eternal banishment in hell."
____________________________________________________________

Actually, Paul is more authoritative than Jesus because the earthly Jesus assumed our human limitations in power and knowledge, but Jesus was restored to full divinity by His resurrection and exaltation and the Risen Jesus authorized Paul to preach His updated Gospel that takes the redeeming significance of His death and resurrection into account (see e. g. Acts 9; Galatians 1:11-15).  I thought you respected revelations from Jesus during NDEs.  During atheist Howard Storm's NDE, Jesus instructs him that some souls are annihilated and this fits what the Gospels imply about Jseus' teaching [see below).  

In any case, I think you are wrong about "eternal dam-nation" on 2 counts: (1) Like Paul, Jesus uses the term "apoleia" which connotes "destruction through annihilation" to designate the fate of the wicked (Matthew 7:13; cp. Romans 9:22; Philippians 3:19).  This fate need not apply to all of the wicked.  Your reference to "eternal" dam-nation ignores that original meaning of the Greek and the underlying Aramaic, a dialect of Hebrew.


(2) In both Greek and Hebrew, the words translated eternal do not mean "forever" in the modern sense of the term.  The Hebrew "olam" simply means "for a long duration."  The Greek "aionios" is the adjectival form of the noun "aion" (age) from which we get our English word aeon.  Thus, "aionios" like the Hebrew "olam" merely means for an indefinite period of time.  In the noncanonical literature from the biblical period, both terms can denote a finite period that permits inquiry into the next phase!  Thus, Jesus uses the term "debt" for sin and can employ the image of a debtor's prison for "Hell" from which release is possible once the "debt" is paid (e. g. Matthew 5:25-26; 18:34).  Like His Jewish contemporaries, Jesus does not view Gehenna as a realm of eternal punishment.  The rabbis viewed Gehenna as a realm in which spiritually mediocre Jews might be confined for a year or so.  Jesus uses the image of "few stripes" to express the fate of the hellbound who committed sins without really knowing any better (Luke 12:47-48).  "Few stripes" implies a finite duration with ultimate release.  Thus Peter, Paul, and John point to the possibility of soul retrievals from Hell; and the next generation of Christians graphically celebrate the possibility of retrievals.  I shall document such cases in future posts in my Heaven thread.

Even New Testament allusions to "eternal life" do not mean this because the language will not permit this implication.  But in the case of the fate of the righteous, the intention seems to be an allusion to life without end.  

Don

During my night in heaven experience the subject of hell like realms didn't come up, but I definitely had the understanding that everything works out perfectly. This being the case, and considering some other experiences, it is hard to imagine beings in a heavenly realm feeling as if everything is perfect, if they are aware of beings who exist in a hellish state for all of eternity.

Therefore, it seems most reasonable to me that beings who just won't move on to the light and abide in a dark state, will lose their connection to the light.

If I was stuck in such a state, I would hope that somebody would have mercy on me and allow my existence to whither away.  What is the point of existing if you live according to negative attributes such as hate, anger, fear, ill will and irreverence; rather than attributes such as happiness, peace, knowledge and love?

I'd like to sort of continue recoverer's post. In his book "Voyage To Curiosity's Father" (I think it was this one) Bruce describes the annihilation as a process of ceasing and finally decaying, he tells of beings in the core, or being the core of hells. Such beings have almost lost what we call personality and have become something like a negative functional process which is on the one hand very powerful (one-dimensional-effective) on the other hand very fragile as there is not much of a soul left which is needed to form something we call "entity", "person". This goes so far that this being isn't able to receive support and nutrition of it's root, it's higher self, it's home, it's basis of existence, and when this is the case, it will fall apart, just like physical death. It's experiences it had until it's break-off from it's home might be retrieved though.

Spooky

 Very, very good explanation Spooky.  :o

Spooky and All,

Do you mean that the Group-soul, the Disk-soul, would still have access to those experiences of the deleted soul's?  Isshh!  :P  Why would they want them ?

Bets

Don Your Quote

Quote:

Actually, Paul is more authoritative than Jesus because the earthly Jesus assumed our human limitations in power and knowledge, but Jesus was restored to full divinity by His resurrection and exaltation and the Risen Jesus authorized Paul to preach His updated Gospel that takes the redeeming significance of His death and resurrection into account (see e. g. Acts 9; Galatians 1:11-15).  I thought you respected revelations from Jesus during NDEs.  During atheist Howard Storm's NDE, Jesus instructs him that some souls are annihilated and this fits what the Gospels imply about Jseus' teaching

Don,

The best kindest comment I can make about you demoting the divine Lord Jesus below the very fallible Paul is abject nonsense.

Did Paul walk on water, die and raze himself again to life, feed thousands from a few fish and loafs, go down in history as the greatest most influential  person to walk the face of the earth, bring back to life a man stinking dead for four days, have direct access to God (accept when dying on the cross),  to die resurrect and walk the earth for forty years after coming back from the dead, born of a virgin by the Spirit of God, 0vecame the terrible bane and torment death 1corr;15, Healed everyone of every ailment disease that came to him without exception, knew the future, knew what people were thinking even if they were remote from him (Nathanial),. His name was Immanuel, meaning “God with us” Paul means by contrast from the Latin paulus “small”  IS THE TRUTH THE LIFE AND THE WAY, to GOD

Dear Paul bless him mortal fallible and sometime doubting irritable soul had non of these god qualities, was simply an self designated apostle and as one Christian to another what you propose is tantamount to blaspheming as we Christians believe Jesus is God, Paul was a man and to equate them in some way is convoluted abject nonsense.

Why do I respond in this manner, because you are like a man tossed in the tide, flouting  biblical scipture and subjective near death experiences. as impossiblity in my mind. One or the other

JESUS NEVER SPOKE TO ME IN MY NDE ONLY A BEING OF LIGHT, WHOEVER IT WASRondele Quoted

Do
Quote:

n- The problem is largely generational. We older folks have been around long enough to know that we don't know. We have questions, they have answers.  A never-ending cycle

.

Exacly and nicely put my dear


alan

Who are any of us to question whether an "entity" or a "personality" of any kind should exist or not? If I were stuck in such a state I would hope that someone would come along again and again and never give up. I would never want someone's connection to the light to be severed because it made me "uncomfortable" that they would not join me in my love-fest. For all I know, this entity, or any entity, might be repelled by or appalled by the love-fest for many reasons. If this entity has turned me down a billion times, maybe I might return one more time, who knows? It seems to me that God has infinite patience, if God exists. The love-fest goes on forever, so who's in a hurry, anyway? Of course, if the entity begged me to annihilate "it" then I would consider it, if I were "God" for a very very very....long time. Oh, but I forgot, time doesn't exist there.



recoverer wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 8:27pm:

During my night in heaven experience the subject of hell like realms didn't come up, but I definitely had the understanding that everything works out perfectly. This being the case, and considering some other experiences, it is hard to imagine beings in a heavenly realm feeling as if everything is perfect, if they are aware of beings who exist in a hellish state for all of eternity. Therefore, it seems most reasonable to me that beings who just won't move on to the light and abide in a dark state, will lose their connection to the light. If I was stuck in such a state, I would hope that somebody would have mercy on me and allow my existence to whither away.  What is the point of existing if you live according to negative attributes such as hate, anger, fear, ill will and irreverence; rather than attributes such as happiness, peace, knowledge and love?

Alan,

Apparently you don't know the original biblical languages and haven't read my posts carefully.
Here are the four key points you overlook:

(1) Jesus and Paul agree on the possibililty of soul annihilation, a possibility reinforced by "Jesus and the angels" during atheist Howard Storm's NDE.  Is yours the only NDE with valid insights? Bruce Moen's astral explorations point to the same conclusion.

(2) You seem to place more stock in our Gospels' witness than in Paul's.  You overlook the fact that Paul is the only eyewitness to Christ's resurrection who actually writes about it.  (1 Corinthians 9:1; 15:3-8; Galatians 1:11-16).  Modern biblical scholarship has established that neither Matthew nor John wrote the Gospels that bear their name.  If you can't trust Paul's witness to Jesus' resurrection, there is even less reason to trust the Gospel witness!

(3) True, Jesus was able to perform amazing miracles AFTER He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism.  But you seem to be unaware of the many Gospel reports of Jseus' limitations in power and knowledge.  These limitations were removed by Jesus' resurrection and exaltation.  So what the risen Jesus teaches is at least as important as what the historical Jesus taught.  

(4) You underestimate Paul's unique gifts from God.  Paul too performed "miraculous signs and wonders (Acts 15:12)."  For example, he healed a cripple (Acts 14:8-10) and performed exorcisms (16:16-18; 19:12), and was delivered from the Philippian jail with the aid of a faith-induced earthquake (16:25-26).  So great was Paul's healing gift that miracles were produced merely by his physical contract with "handkerchiefs and aprons" that were then brought to the sick (19:11-12).  Paul even raised the dead (20:9-10).  Luke, the author of Acts, was Paul's travel companion and fellow missionary.  

Don

Don said: "Actually, Paul is more authoritative than Jesus because the earthly Jesus assumed our human limitations in power and knowledge, but Jesus was restored to full divinity by His resurrection and exaltation and the Risen Jesus authorized Paul to preach His updated Gospel that takes the redeeming significance of His death and resurrection into account (see e. g. Acts 9; Galatians 1:11-15). "


Don:

I can't say I agree with the above. I speak from the viewpoint of what it is like to receive spirit guidance from a higher level being. Doing so serves the purpose of getting me to the point where I overcome my limitations and live completely according to love. This help has included extensive energetic work that enables me to make contact with levels of existence that aren't ordinarily contacted.

Unlike me, I figure Jesus completed the process. Therefore, he had access to universal mind and resultantly spoke according to divine wisdom, rather than according to his interpretations of what truth is.  He did not have to be crucified before he overcame the flesh, lived completely according to love, and had access to divine knowledge.  

If Paul did the same thing, I don't see how his knowledge could be superior to Jesus' knowledge. Divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions is divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions, regardless of who has access to such knowledge.

When I consider that Paul said that women should be subversive to men because Adam was created first, and after all, Eve ate the apple, I doubt that he was a man of perfect knowledge. I also doubt that Jesus viewed women in such a way. 

[Albert:] "Unlike me, I figure Jesus completed the process. Therefore, he had access to universal mind and resultantly spoke according to divine wisdom, rather than according to his interpretations of what truth is.  He did not have to be crucified before he overcame the flesh, lived completely according to love, and had access to divine knowledge."
________________________________________________________________
I am a Christian who reveres Jesus as God incarnate.  But the Gospels and Hebrews repeatedly stress various ways in which the historical Jesus was limited in both His power and His knowledge.  To become human He "emptied Himself" of His divine prerogatives, and hence, needed to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before embarking on His healing ministry.  He apparently performed no miracles prior to this time.  So His home town scoffs at reports of His subsequent miracles.  Jesus' limitations are removed by His resurrection and exaltation.  And Paul encounters the risen Jesus and receives His message from Him.

[Albert:] "If Paul did the same thing, I don't see how his knowledge could be superior to Jesus' knowledge. Divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions is divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions, regardless of who has access to such knowledge."
________________________________________________________________

Paul's Gospel was entrusted to him in a direct encounter with the risen Jesus.  The New Testament Gospel accounts of the resurrection are not written up by the eyewitnesses; they are mediated to the writers by the eyewitnesses of the earthly Jesus.  Paul's teaching has been repeatedly checked out by the eyewitnesses during his visits to Jerusalem and his other encounters with the apostles on the mission field.  Indeed, Paul writes his epistles 15-20 years before our first written Gospel.  There is no contradiction between Paul and the historical Jesus.  

[Albert:] "When I consider that Paul said that women should be subversive to men because Adam was created first, and after all, Eve ate the apple, I doubt that he was a man of perfect knowledge. I also doubt that Jesus viewed women in such a way. "
___________________________________________________________

You are confusing 1 Timothy 2:9-15 with the authentic Paul.  1 Timothy is written by someone from one of Paul's churches after his death.  The suppression of female leadership in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is, for 5 reasons, a later interpolation in Paul's epistles.  Paul never blames Eve for the Fall.  In fact, Paul champions a leadership role for women even more than Jesus does.  Romans 16 is a celebration of female leaders in the early church, including Priscilla, the woman who seems to have founded the church at Rome!  If you wish, I can expand on all this in great detail.  

As I have argued, Jesus and Paul both seem to embrace the possiblity of soul annihilation, as does the Jesus who instructs Howard Storm during his NDE.

Don

Don said: "I am a Christian who reveres Jesus as God incarnate.  But the Gospels and Hebrews repeatedly stress various ways in which the historical Jesus was limited in both His power and His knowledge.  To become human He "emptied Himself" of His divine prerogatives, and hence, needed to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before embarking on His healing ministry.  He apparently performed no miracles prior to this time.  So His home town scoffs at reports of His subsequent miracles.  Jesus' limitations are removed by His resurrection and exaltation.  And Paul encounters the risen Jesus and receives His message from Him."

I figure that Jesus had to overcome his humaness.  No easy task, which I figure takes more than one baptism.  Perhaps Jesus' baptism was the start, but not the end of the growth process he went through. I believe it is a mistake to give too much credit to our physical bodies when it comes to how we are limited.  I believe it is more of a matter of our "non-physical bodies" intentionally being limited so we can make use of our experience in the physical World.   Specific types of energetic work has to be gone through in order to overcome these limitations.  The isolation from spirit realms incarnating into a body leads to, causes us to get involved with limiting belief systems and the resulting limited way of experiencing life. If we overcome such mental barriers, even while occupying a physical body, we can obtain access to divine mind.  I figure this is what Jesus did before he was crucified.  I also believe it is possible that things expaned for him even more, when he was resurrected.

Don said: "If you wish, I can expand on all this in great detail."  

If you are able to find the time.  I recently started to read the chapters that follow the gospels again. I haven't read them multiple times, and figure I would pick up something new if I read them again.  I sort of skipped ahead and read "James" first, because I received a spirit message to do so.  It seems to me that James is a chapter that people don't speak about a lot, but has a clear message.  

Blink:

Would you want to exist for all of eternity as being who lives according to hate, anger, ill will towards others, and other negative traits, or would you hope that something would take place that caused your existence to come to an end?

It would be nice if every single being gets saved, but the Biblical verses Don knows about and Bruce Moen's experience suggest differently. There is a section in Bruce's book Voyage to curiosity's father, where he explains in a very rational way how a soul can get to the point where no matter how others try to help it, it just can't open up to love.

This is horrible, but perhaps there is no other way for us to truly have free will. If you consider this issue from the perspective of the creative aspect of being, how could it function if it didn't have the ability to express itself in varying ways?




wrote on Feb 27^th, 2008 at 1:05pm:

Who are any of us to question whether an "entity" or a "personality" of any kind should exist or not? If I were stuck in such a state I would hope that someone would come along again and again and never give up. I would never want someone's connection to the light to be severed because it made me "uncomfortable" that they would not join me in my love-fest. For all I know, this entity, or any entity, might be repelled by or appalled by the love-fest for many reasons. If this entity has turned me down a billion times, maybe I might return one more time, who knows? It seems to me that God has infinite patience, if God exists. The love-fest goes on forever, so who's in a hurry, anyway? Of course, if the entity begged me to annihilate "it" then I would consider it, if I were "God" for a very very very....long time. Oh, but I forgot, time doesn't exist there. recoverer wrote on Feb 26th, 2008 at 8:27pm: During my night in heaven experience the subject of hell like realms didn't come up, but I definitely had the understanding that everything works out perfectly. This being the case, and considering some other experiences, it is hard to imagine beings in a heavenly realm feeling as if everything is perfect, if they are aware of beings who exist in a hellish state for all of eternity. Therefore, it seems most reasonable to me that beings who just won't move on to the light and abide in a dark state, will lose their connection to the light. If I was stuck in such a state, I would hope that somebody would have mercy on me and allow my existence to whither away.  What is the point of existing if you live according to negative attributes such as hate, anger, fear, ill will and irreverence; rather than attributes such as happiness, peace, knowledge and love?

recoverer wrote on Feb 27^th, 2008 at 4:10pm:

I figure that Jesus had to overcome his humaness.  No easy task, which I figure takes more than one baptism.  Perhaps Jesus' baptism was the start, but not the end of the growth process he went through. I believe it is a mistake to give too much credit to our physical bodies when it comes to how we are limited.  I believe it is more of a matter of our "non-physical bodies" intentionally being limited so we can make use of our experience in the physical World.   Specific types of energetic work has to be gone through in order to overcome these limitations.  The isolation from spirit realms incarnating into a body leads to, causes us to get involved with limiting belief systems and the resulting limited way of experiencing life. If we overcome such mental barriers, even while occupying a physical body, we can obtain access to divine mind.  I figure this is what Jesus did before he was crucified.  I also believe it is possible that things expaned for him even more, when he was resurrected.

 I pretty much completely agree, but would also mention that it seems like its also a balancing  process between the physical body, the mind, and the spiritual aspects.  

 

    Something important to remember in all of this talk of Soul death , is that at least from Bruce's perspective, it's not an outside consciousness or entity that decides this for that personality, it's the Disc self of which that personality is connected to which along with the natural progression that Spooky talks about, who is the final decider in all this.  

 So, it's like you, the wiser you, deciding that a part of you just can't go on any longer the way it is and so that wiser you let's go of the consciousness connections to that particular aspect.  

  I would imagine the memories of that self are still retained in some way, and so there is growth even out of death.  

 As Bruce portrays it, this is not an easy decision to make, even for a non emotionally centered Disk Self.  

 As humans centered in an emotional experience, and some humans more so than others, such a concept sounds so horrible to even want to consider, it sounds so inhumane at first, but i believe Albert brings up some good points regarding this.    Maybe it is more loving and kinder to end that self's conscious awareness since all it is experiencing is suffering and more suffering, as well as holding back the greater Disk self.  

  I seem to remember Bruce saying that this tends to happen when an entire Disk is ready to wink out , graduate, and phase out of this Universe so that it can become a Co-Creator of others.

 We have 3 good sources which talk about this, the Biblical, Bruce's info, and Cayce's info all essentially agree on this.   I haven't read Storms book, so i can't comment on it.  

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 2:25am:

Ian and Griffin, Welcome to the board.  Here contrasting opinions and experiences are welcome.  However, simple dogmatic assertions contribute nothing to discussions unless they are backed up by some sort of justification or illustrated by your experiences.  We really want to know why you feel the way you do and/ or how your views have been shaped by your experiences. Don

i am told that the soul is energy and cannot be destroyed
"you cannot die for the life of you" scottish medium gordon smith.
even evil monsters get another chance in time. i believe there
maybe a deep sleep for the hopeless souls?

I have a Gordon Smith book, and I could tell that some of what he says is based on book knowledge.

If you compared what the famous mediums believe, you would see that they disagree with each other at times.




ian wrote on Feb 27^th, 2008 at 8:06pm:

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 26th, 2008 at 2:25am: Ian and Griffin, Welcome to the board.  Here contrasting opinions and experiences are welcome.  However, simple dogmatic assertions contribute nothing to discussions unless they are backed up by some sort of justification or illustrated by your experiences.  We really want to know why you feel the way you do and/ or how your views have been shaped by your experiences. Don i am told that the soul is energy and cannot be destroyed "you cannot die for the life of you" scottish medium gordon smith. even evil monsters get another chance in time. i believe there maybe a deep sleep for the hopeless souls?

Don,

Again, your logic is convoluted, you claim the supposed authors did not write the gospels and this might be the case as they with the exception of Matthew uneducated. Therefore, someone possibly wrote them in proxy for them. But hek! "We have the same problem with Paul there in even less historical evidence for his existence than that of Jesus" (Josephes)

To claim from thousands of miles away that I do not have knowledge like you do of the original languages of the scriptures is preposterous


     
Re 20:10      kai; oJ diavboloß oJ planw'n aujtou;ß ejblhvqh eijß th;n livmnhn tou' puro;ß kai; qeivou, o&pou kai; to; qhrivon kai; oJ yeudoprofhvthß, kai; basanisqhvsontai hJmevraß kai; nukto;ß eijß tou;ß aijw'naß tw'n aijwvnwn.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
     
Re 20:11      Kai; ei\don qrovnon mevgan leuko;n kai; to;n kaqhvmenon ejpj aujtovn, ouJ' ajpo; tou' proswvpou e~fugen hJ gh' kai; oJ oujranovß, kai; tovpoß oujc euJrevqh aujtoi'ß.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
     
Re 20:12      kai; ei\don tou;ß nekrouvß, tou;ß megavlouß kai; tou;ß mikrouvß, eJstw'taß ejnwvpion tou' qrovnou, kai; bibliva hjnoivcqhsan: kai; a~llo biblivon hjnoivcqh, o& ejstin th'ß zwh'ß: kai; ejkrivqhsan oiJ nekroi; ejk tw'n gegrammevnwn ejn toi'ß biblivoiß kata; ta; e~rga aujtw'n.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
     
Re 20:13      kai; e~dwken hJ qavlassa tou;ß nekrou;ß tou;ß ejn aujth'/, kai; oJ qavnatoß kai; oJ a&/dhß e~dwkan tou;ß nekrou;ß tou;ß ejn aujtoi'ß, kai; ejkrivqhsan e&kastoß kata; ta; e~rga aujtw'n.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
     
Re 20:14      kai; oJ qavnatoß kai; oJ a&/dhß ejblhvqhsan eijß th;n livmnhn tou' purovß. ouJ'toß oJ qavnatoß oJ deuvterovß ejstin, hJ livmnh tou' purovß.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
     
Re 20:15      kai; ei~ tiß oujc euJrevqh ejn th'/ bivblw/ th'ß zwh'ß gegrammevnoß ejblhvqh eijß th;n livmnhn tou' purovß.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and [highlight]night for ever and ever[/highlight]
Usage:

aijwvn Aion (ahee-ohn');
Word Origin: Greek,  Noun Masculine, Strong #: 165

1.      for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2.      the worlds, universe
3.      period of time, age

So Don it could mean eternity or a period take your pick

KJV Word Usage and Count
ever      71
world      38
never      6
evermore      4
age      2
eternal      2

Ever learning and not coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH . It was hid from the wise and prudent and revealed to the babes and sucklngs!!!!!!!!!!

You are not the only Biblical scholar on the forum Don but "heh!!" you are interesting incisive and all that provocative dialoguing is about.

alan
     

[Alan:] "We have the same problem with Paul there in even less historical evidence for his existence than that of Jesus" (Josephes)
______________________________________

This statement displays total ignorance of standard biblical scholarship.  The authenticity of 7 Pauline epistles is universally accepted by secular university and seminary scholar (Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon, and Philippians).  The authenticity of the other 6 is disputed in varying degrees in various acedemic quarters (2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus).  Name even one of the dozens of New Testament Introductions that disputes this fact.  

aijwvn Aion (ahee-ohn');
Word Origin: Greek,  Noun Masculine, Strong #: 165

1.      for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2.      the worlds, universe
3.      period of time, age

So Don it could mean eternity or a period take your pick
________________________________________________

Jesus taught in Aramaic, not Greek.  The Hebrew (also Aramaic) "olam" means "for a long time."  The underlying Aramaic word must be considered when translating the Greek text of our Gospels.  Nor is the proper translation a crap shoot.  Jesus repeatedly implies that release from Hell is possible and sometimes inevitable.  Translations must take context and overall teaching into account.  Thus "period of time, age" seems preferable.  After all, "aionios" is a cognate of the noun "aion" ("age").  

Your use of Strong only reinforces the obvious: you are not a Bible scholar.  Arndt and Gingrich and Liddell-Scott are the standard Greek dictionaries for New Testament scholarship.  Strong is for lay people who, like yourself, have never graduated from seminary or taken Greek or Hebrew at the college level.  The King James is a terribly outdated translation that employs a very corrupt Hebrew and Greek text.  Am I wrong about your academic credentials?

Don

Don read below first and think:

Ever learning and not coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH .

It was hid from the wise and prudent and revealed to the babes and sucklngs

Professing themselves wise, they became fools in their own understanding
Quote:

Your Quote [quote]This statement displays total ignorance of standard biblical scholarship.  The authenticity of 7 Pauline epistles is universally accepted by secular university and seminary scholar (Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon, and Philippians).  The authenticity of the other 6 is disputed in varying degrees in various acedemic quarters (2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus).  Name even one of the dozens of New Testament Introductions that disputes this fact

Ah so I must now accept all New Testament Iintrductons as absolute truth, again nonsense

Come on Don now you create in me an absolute “TOTAL IGNORANCE” WHAT NONSENSE

Strong is just one source I use


Your use of Strong only reinforces the obvious: you are not a Bible scholar.  (yes I am like it or not dear allknowing Don

Are you now degenerating to the personal point of calling me a liar, do I have to go to a college of some sort to be taught scriptural truths. If this is the case then for heavens sake which College as each teaches a different approach and dogma on the bible using different translations of the bible. By the way, I do not confine my studies to the King James Bible and have a collection of over thirty bibles.

I restate it so that you might begin to comprehend what I am saying. I AM A BIBLICAL SCHOLAR ESPECIALLY IN COMPARATIVE THEOLOGY

your quote


Quote:

Strong is for lay people who, like yourself, have never graduated from seminary or taken Greek or Hebrew at the college level.  The King James is a terribly outdated translation that employs a very corrupt Hebrew and Greek text.  Am I wrong about your academic credentials

No you are not wrong I am a lay person a Mechanical Engineer in fact, but just as educated as you are. I do not confine myself to Strong

Now Don , who did Jesus despise the most, well it was the Scribes and Pharisees was it not, he called them some bad names, vipers, hypocrites, whited sepultures tombs of the prophets containing dead men bones. Who are these types of people today?

Example

Scribes: Biblical scholars like you of course, puffed with their own subjective knowledge?

Pharisees: Talkers of the talk but never walk the walk, in other words hypocrites

I see no reason to impugn another's intelligence or capabilities on the board.  It is one thing to point out the facts and information regarding biblical scholarship and interpretation.  Few people are trained in formal seminaries, or translate the ancient texts from hebrew or aramaic on their own.  We should, however have the ability to discuss ideas here without this formal training.

Also we have common versions of modern day scripture (flawed as they may be in comparison to other publications).  We have commonalities to discuss.  One can point out the facts (with references for support), and leave out the personal attacks.  Facts tend to speak for themselves.


Matthew

He who exsules himself shall be humbled,but he who humbles humbles himself shall be exsuled

Hi I have met hypocrites because when i walked past St peters church where i live,there were these old women coming out the church,all of them dressed up fancy and instead of a smile and hello how you doing,they looked at me like i was something they had tread on and i thought bloody hypocrites they just been in that church talking about the love of God and now they are out the church,they aint got a clue what Gods love is about.

Loves you all    love and God bless   juditha

Juditha:

The below reminds me of a story I heard the other day. A man was frustrated because the members of a church wouldn't let him inside, because he was black. He heard a heavenly voice say, "Don't feel frustrated, I've been trying to get into that church for a long time."

Juditha, I really don't believe that you have to worry about what other people think of you.



wrote on Feb 28^th, 2008 at 6:23pm:

Hi I have met hypocrites because when i walked past St peters church where i live,there were these old women coming out the church,all of them dressed up fancy and instead of a smile and hello how you doing,they looked at me like i was something they had tread on and i thought bloody hypocrites they just been in that church talking about the love of God and now they are out the church,they aint got a clue what Gods love is about. Loves you all    love and God bless   juditha

we all believe whats in our hearts but some day we're all gonna find out the absolute truth
:D

Matthew,
If I claimed I was a doctor and dispensed my own idea of presecriptions, you have every right to ask if I had ever graduated from medical school.  Alan's claim to be a "Bible scholar" invites the question about his formal credentials and language study, especially when he espouses claims that no formally acknowledged expert would credit.  He has a right to express any views, however unsubstantiated.  But if he claims a certain authority by virtue of expert status, he must be prepared to back that up and face challenges.  Notice carefully that he addresses none of my claims about the academic consensus with evidence or a reasoned response.  I am merely trying to redirect discussion back to the relevant experiences and evidence for the thread's important topic.  

Don

Don you wrote this nonsense to Matthew


Quote:

Matthew, If I claimed I was a doctor and dispensed my own idea of presecriptions, you have every right to ask if I had ever graduated from medical school.  Alan's claim to be a "Bible scholar" invites the question about his formal credentials and language stody, especially when he espouses claims that no formally acknowledged expert would credit.  He has a right to express any views, however unsubstantiated.  But if he claims a certain authority by virtue of expert status, he must be prepared to back that up and face challenges.  Notice carefully that he addresses none of my claims about the academic consensus with evidence or a reasoned response.  I am merely trying to redirect discussion back to the relevant experiences and evidence for the thread's

Dear all-knowing only educated member of the forum from a mere layperson, with forty years of church and self study into Judeo-Christian scriptures. I would like to respond and see you reply point for point like I do and "not simply avoid and dispense what you do not agree with or dislike".

Don and come in here Matthew, read below and see if you can see the academic consensus that Don said I am avoiding, and my views are not unsubstantiated (I take umbrage to this statement)

Pauline epistles are the fourteen books in the New Testament traditionally attributed to Paul of Tarsus, of which thirteen are explicitly ascribed to Paul, and one, Hebrews, is anonymous. Except for Hebrews the Pauline authorship of these letters was not academically questioned until the nineteenth century.

Note!! not academically questioned

Don so of the fourteen Pauline epistles we can only trust “seven”. Come on must I take this as reliably

Seven letters are generally classified as “undisputed”, expressing contemporary scholarly near consensus that they are the work of Paul: Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon. Six additional letters bearing Paul's name do not currently enjoy the same academic consensus: Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus. The first three, called the "Deutero-Pauline Epistles," have no consensus on whether or not they are authentic letters of Paul. The latter three, the "Pastoral Epistles", are widely regarded as pseudographs,[2] though certain scholars do consider them genuine.[3] There are two examples of pseudonymous letters written in Paul’s name apart from the alleged New Testament epistles.[4] Since the early centuries of the church, there has been debate concerning the authorship of the anonymous Epistle to the Hebrews, and contemporary scholars reject Pauline authorship


So Don, we can trust only seven Paulian letters, not a consensus to me far off. And then are they truth as they conflict with the words of Jesus, works/grace as examples

Moreover, the unity of the letters is sometimes questioned. 1 and 2 Corinthians have garnered particular suspicion, with some scholars, among them Edgar Goodspeed and Norman Perrin, supposing one or both texts as we have them today are actually amalgamations of multiple individual letters. There remains considerable discussion as to the presence of possible significant interpolations, among them Romans 1:18-2:29, 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 and Galatians 1:13-2:14.

"There remains considerable discussion" and suspicion!!, so you want us to accept something as factual as divine truth that is still under discussion, "Come on Don be real!!"

Now is this indisputable proof proof that a person called Paul actually sat down and wrote thse letters some two thousand years ago to really know we would need a time machine and go back and observe him in the processc

Going back to your unkind most unchristian comments

Don you wrote this about me


Quote:

This statement displays total ignorance of standard biblical scholarship

"TOTAL LACK" WOULD ANYONE ELSE ON THE FORUM EXCEPT YOU SEE MY RESPONSES

AS TOTAL LACK OF BIBLICAL SCHOLARSHIP.

Thank god, I am not confined to an exclusive box of thinking like you. Thank God I can absorb take in what I feel is good and true from biblical scholarship and spew out the nonsense.

Don Quoted untruthfully
 

Quote:

But if he claims a certain authority by virtue of "expert status", he must be prepared to back that up and face challenges.

I clearly stated I was a layperson  and my expertise was Mechanical Engineering.  Don, go back on the threads and find where I ever said I was an expert on biblical matters, then again based on your threads and posts I bring into question your so called non existent expertise. [highlight]Anyway, an expert on scripture other than God and You simply do not exist[/highlight

Now another question you avoided, you are adamant that one has to go to some College or other to be able to call them a bible student "WHICH ONE IS CORRECT AND TRUE? (THE ONE YOU ATTENDED I BET).  "FOR HEAVENS SAKE TELL ME AND I WILL JOIN TOMORROW!!.

So while puffed up Christian theologians like you, with its billions of fragmented approaches, continue to seak the truth and come to some real consenses about the scriptures "in vain". I will do my own thing and study scripture anyway I like.

Now about you trying to equate to Matthew the scientific study of medicine and the unscientific mess of religion as the ultimate of preposterous nonsense

alan

"Paul and his letters are considered the ultimate resource
for those who rely on law and logic, because what he says
relies on law, not the 'mysteries' of belief.  
_____________________________________________

Precisely the opposite is true.
"Christ is THE END of Law, so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)."
"The Law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came...But now that faith in Christ has come, WE NO LONGER NEED THE LAW AS OUR  GUARDIAN (Galatians 3:24-25)."
"I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU because you obey the Law of Moses?  Of course not!  It is because you believe the message about Christ (Galatians 3:5)."

"[Paul:] shunned Christ's message of love and the mysteries of spirit (miracles.)"
_______________________________________________________________________
1 Corinthians 13 is the absolute zenith of biblical celebration of love ("agape"), a subject that absolutely permeates Paul's epistles.  e. g. "For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, it makes no difference whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised (i. e. follow the Law).  What is important is faith expressing itself in love (Galatians 5:6)."

The comments about Paul's "shunning" of miracles are misguided.  Paul's miracles are recounted by his missionary companion, Luke, in the Book of Acts.  These miracles include raising the dead!  But just look at some of the ways Paul celebrates Chrisitan miracles, including his own, in his own letters:

"I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you (2 Corinthians 12:12)."
"God gives to one person THE POWER TO PERFORM MIRACLES, and to another the ability to prophesy (1 Corinthians 12:10).
"Here is a list of some of the members that God has placed in the body of Christ:...those who perform miracles, those who have the gift of healing...( 1 Corinthians 12:28)."

Don

Alan,

The point from which you sidetracked the thread is this: Jesus wrote nothing; but Paul wrote several epistles, of which our New Testament has 7 indisputably authored by him.  Therefore, Paul's existence is at least as well attested as Jesus.'  Period.

You wrongly distinguish the Deuteuro-Pauline epistles from the Pastoral Epistles.  "Deuteros" is the Greek word for "second" as in "second Paul."  The Pastoral Epistles are also deutero-Pauline.  All 6 of thsee letters are full of genuinely Pauline teaching, though they are probably not actually authored by Paul.  The chief difference is that one Deutero-Pauline letter (1 Timothy 2:9-15) denies women the right to be church leaders.  The real Paul celebrates female leaders!  The question of the unity of epistles is also irrelevant, though you have mistated it.  The unity issue chiefly deals with the fact that both 2 Corinthians and Philippians are a fusion of two of Paul's letters into one.  Both letters in each epistle are authentic.  But when Paul's letters were first collected around 85 AD, two passages were interpolated into the Corinthians correspondence: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (the passage that rules out female leadership) and 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 (nothing controversial there).  

Also your point about a contradiction between Jesus and Paul is incorrect.  But if you want to defend your claim, please do so in an offtopic post.  Why have you refused to address my case for annihilation that supports the findings of Bruce Moen and Howard Storm's NDE?  After all, that issue is this thread's topic. And I rechecked--you did claim to be a "Bible scholar" and thus invited inquiries into your credentials when you dismiss the established perspectives of acknowedged experts.  

Don

Don,

Don,

Of course, I said I was a biblical scholar but I think we have different approaches to this word. It means Academic Intellectual thinker theorist philosopher truth-seeker logician, and I am guilty of all those approaches to life. I concede I have never attended a seminary of College on biblical matters and have emphasized repeatedly that I am a self-taught scholar, yes scholar in these matters. Do I have to attend a college to qualify as scholar, come on Don?

My previous quote

Quote:

I clearly stated I was a layperson and my expertise was Mechanical Engineering.  Don, go back on the threads and find where I ever said I was an expert on biblical matters, then again based on your threads and posts I bring into question you’re so called non-existent expertise

Now I will reply about destruction of the soul, yes Jesus did seem to indicate this possibility, He said don’t fear the one who can destroy your body but fear the one who can destroy your body and soul in hell. Many believe when Jesus used the term destroy he meant the physical not the soul. What I do not like about total elimination of the reprobate and depraved that it lets them off the hook .I feel that there must be punishment for their sins if you like.


I am not a closed book on this matter, however.

alan

Don,

Thank you for your welcome.
I cannot explain in one post why I feel there is not a single soul that can ever be lost.

My understanding/belief doesn't depend upon the intervention of a deity.
I don't come from the viewpoint of religion or a saviour.

My understanding comes more from real-estate.... knowing what is underneath one's feet,
where one stands.

Of course, my experiences are useless to you. They cannot change how you think.
Regardless, I hope to talk with you again.

Jack

Don,

Here is the answer to your question about eternal elimination in the afterlife from my blog http://wwwalanmcdougall.blogspot.com. Read my blog and you will see we are not very far off in our beliefs.

I put this in my blog long before we dialogued on the topic, so you will see I am not as ignorant and uninformed as you think!


No Eternal Torment In Hell Because God Is LOVE
God is Love

This is the Good News taught by Yeshua of Nazareth, Jesus the Christ. God is the Father, not just the Source of all that is, but the loving Source of all that is. Or as St. John even more succinctly put it, God is love. Not "loving." Not "full of love," but simply is love, period. Because God is universal love, the early church often held the idea of universal salvation. But unfortunately, the Good News often becomes "mixed news" in modern church pews. The distorted version of Christianity taught to many is a subtle dualism, with an eternal heaven and eternal hell, eternal bliss and eternal torture, an eternal God saving the few, and an eternal devil snaring the many. This teaching is terribly mistaken, yet widely accepted—even demanded—in many branches of Christianity.

Eternal Torture?
There is the idea that God is love, but will also torment all who "do not accept Jesus" (itself a gross misunderstanding of the gospel) forever. The resulting image is not only monstrous, but an impossible contradiction. It is inconceivable to imagine any person causing the pain of another forever. Maybe a day perhaps. Maybe a few years, if I am exceptionally evil. However, who among us would torture even Hitler forever? If he were tortured a year for every person who died in World War II, that is 530,000,000 years. Moreover, as some would gladly remind you, that is not even a second as far as forever is concerned.

No one other than a psychopath could torment anyone endlessly. No father could punish his children endlessly. But some say that the One who is Infinite Love does it forever. Something is wrong!

We have been told that:
• the punishment for finite crimes is infinite punishment.
• the One who is infinite Love has finite patience-but patience is a quality of love! (1 Cor. 13;4)

• the One of infinite might has a plan that finite man can thwart.
The threat of eternal torture is like a gun pointed to a person's head. It turns a loving invitation into spiritual rape. A further problem is that an eternal punishment is pointless, since it does not rehabilitate or heal. Shall we accept this picture at face value, contrary to our own knowledge of love, contrary to our own experience of God's nature, and contrary to innumerable promises of Scripture, or, shall we delve deeper, to get at the mystical truths of what the Bible calls judgment and salvation?

Eternal?
Nothing in the Bible suggests that punishment after death is irrevocable except for the drama of some images and the entrenched mistranslation of some words and passages. The word in the Greek NT most often translated as "forever" or "eternal" is aion which means an age, and the adjectival form, aionian, means age-long. This is the source of the English word eon. The corresponding Hebrew term is olam, "age" or "world." Both these terms indicate conditions with an indefinite, but not an infinite, duration.
Eternal and forever are unfortunate mistranslations for age and world, both of which end, as God is the Creator and Sustainer of both.

How can one be punished for a finite transgression with an infinite punishment, it is not just and God is known by all as the Righteous Just judge

You see I am very informed old fellow and you took the bait and we have had some excellent dialogue as a result, did we not.
alan

alan

Don

I put this story here as well in case you miss it in the other thread:

[color=#000000]FUNDAMENTALISTS READ THIS STORY OF SUBA
The story of Suba an African girl

The following trial and judgment is based on the teachings of the world’s leading clergymen and theologians. “My God is a god of love not the monster depicted by these idiots “in the following imaginary trial on the great judgment day of God”

A theoretical Judgment Day for a young African girl named Suba, who died at age seventeen while giving birth to her first child:
god: What do you have to say for yourself, Suba?

Suba: I’m sorry, your holiness, I am frightened and I don’t understand the question.

god: There is nothing to be frightened of, my child. I won’t hurt you [yet]. Tell me about your life.

Suba: I was born number three of seven children. My mother and father loved us very much. They taught us many things like, food getting, fire cooking, clothes making, basket making, the rules of our tribe, and how to worship the great maker.

god: That would be me. I am the Great Maker. Tell me about that. How did you worship me?

Suba: Well, we were told to treat everyone in the tribe real good. That is what the great maker wanted all of us to do -- be real good to all people. We were told that the great maker would then be real good to us. Life was pretty good except when we didn’t have much food to eat, and when a bad tribe from far away came and burned our village and killed many of our people.
god: Did you hate those bad men who killed your people?

Suba: Yes, your holiness, of course we hated them.

god: Do you know that it is a sin to hate?

Suba: What is a sin?

god: Something bad.

Suba: I knew it was bad to sass back to my Mother and Father. I was but seven years old when my village was burned. I don’t think I hate them anymore. All I ever wanted was a place to live in peace with enough food to eat, and to raise my baby to be a fine woman. Is that bad, your holiness?
god: You mean to tell me you have never done anything bad that you knew was bad?

Suba: Yes I did, your holiness, many times. And my mother would hit my bottom with a stick if she saw me do something bad. But when I was having my baby, it hurt a hundred times more than when mother hit me with a stick. And that’s the last thing I remember until being brought here.

god: You know, Suba, I had a son.

Suba: I’ll bet you were real proud of him.

god: No one will ever know how much. All his life, he taught people to love each other and to forgive each other for being bad, and even to love their enemies.

Suba: He sounds like a nice man.

god: Yes he was. But when he was just a young man, the worshippers of the great maker banded together and killed my son by nailing him to a tree.

Suba: Oh, god! I am so sorry. I know you must miss him a lot.

god: No, child. He’s alive with me. I brought him back to life only three days after they killed him. He is now the savior of all people on earth.

Suba: We never heard of your son in Africa. I so wish that your son could have saved my tribe from those bad people when I was a little girl.

god: My son can save people even if they are dead.

Suba: Wow! That sounds too good to be true. How does you son actually save all people?

god: He doesn’t save all people.

Suba: But your holiness, you said he is the savior of all the people on earth.
god: Yes, my child. My son is the savior of all people; it’s just that he doesn’t actually save all people.

Suba: I don’t understand "he is, but he isn’t." If I would have ever said something as mixed up as that to my Momma, she would have hit me with a stick.

god: Let me explain: My son died such a bad death to pay for all the bad things that bad people do. Now anyone who believes my son did a good thing for them, will not be hurt for the bad things they did, but will live for ever. I have written all these rules in a book called the bible. It says in the bible that what you get for doing bad is death. But if any one likes my son’s sacrifice for their bad life, I will give them a free gift of life.

Suba: Oh god! I hardly know what to say. You mean if I believe in your son who did a good thing for me, even though I have often been bad, that you will give me a life that never ends?

god: No child. Not you. You don’t understand the higher scholarship of

Christian theology. You see, you don’t qualify to be saved.

Suba: What is "c h r i s t i a n t h e o l o g y?"

god: It’s too confusing, Child, not even theologians know what it is.

Suba: Why don’t I "qualify?" What must I do to "qualify?"
god: You don’t have to do anything to qualify. Salvation is by grace. That means it’s a free gift

Suba: Then why don’t I qualify, your holiness?

god: Well, what I mean is you can’t qualify for salvation, but you can be disqualified by not qualifying for the qualification that is not required, seeing salvation is free by grace. Or, ah, something like that.

Suba: Do you reckon, your holiness, one of those theologians might be able to explain that a litter better for me?

god: No, my child, besides, it is too late for you to be saved.

Suba: But, your holiness, why is it too late?

god: Because you didn’t accept my son and his sacrifice before you died giving birth.

Suba: But, your holiness, I didn’t know of your son and his sacrifice before I died.

god: Tough  child. I can’t be bothered with all the complicated details
of trying to get everybody saved. Besides, most of the highest educated theologians in the world clearly teach that if one dies not knowing of my son’s sacrifice for them, it is too late to ever be saved.


Suba: You mean my punishment for being bad will not be taken away by your son and I will be given death for ever?

god: Not exactly, child. I know my bible says death, but my theologians thought that death was too good for bad people, so they changed it to a never-ending life of torture in fire. And it will hurt hundreds and hundreds and countless billions of times more than when you died giving birth. I will never stop burning your flesh, Suba, not even for a second, and, of course, your baby daughter will be burning right by your side. Actually most of Africa will be burning with you. Billions and billions. Just burning and burning. Billions and bill ... Excuse me, Suba, go ahead.

Suba: But god, your holiness, why? Why?

god: Look child, as one of my leading theologians recently suggested, it is not incumbent upon me to save everyone. Indeed it is not incumbent upon me to save anyone. Besides you are my enemy and I hate you. I know it doesn’t sound fair child, but you have to understand, these great theologians of the world have made these rules, and so my hands are tied.

Suba: But god, I don’t hate you.

god: Now don’t try to lay a guilt trip on me child, I said I hate you, you're my enemy, and that’s final.

Suba: But your holiness, you said your son taught everyone to love their enemies?

“”GOD: ANGELS OF THE GUARD, “THIS GIRL IS GETTING ON MY NERVES”. “THROW HER INTO THE FIRES OF HELL TO BURN SCREAM IN HORROR, DESOLATION, AND LONELINESS FOR EVER. AND EVER AND EVER, WITH NO END TO HER INFINITE TORMENT””
“’ FOR THE TINY MINUTE FINITE TRANSGRESSIONS SHE LIKE ALL HUMANS OF ALL FAITHS HAVE DONE. ONLY” BORNAGAINCHRISTIANS” ARE SAVED FROM THIS HORROR!!

god: Next Who are we now going to confine to everlasting torment?

'Abject rubbish god is love and loves all of humanity not a minute tiny within the beautiful vastness of the infinite cosmic'Regards
Alan[/color]

Jack,

My understanding/belief doesn't depend upon the intervention of a deity.
I don't come from the viewpoint of religion or a saviour.  My understanding comes more from real-estate.... knowing what is underneath one's feet, where one stands.
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I do not engage in debates on such issues with the hope of "winning."  Of course, I hope to expand the horizons of spiritual quests.  After all, I am now a pastor.  So you can teach me and others like me how to engage in dialogue with someone like you.  In my church I lead a small group discussion dominated by skeptics and I let them set the agenda and take the lead in the controversial issues we discuss.  I recently wrote an article in the local paper on NDEs.  New Agers and new skeptics have expressed an interest in starting a discussion of New Age issues with me.  I'm convinced that Jesus was right: He taught that true spirituality is better caught than taught.  True spiritual transformation is most likely to occur when seekers make the logical connections by themselves and have their own experiences of God's presence, guidance, and power.  Second-hand or vicarious spirituality just inoculates seekers against the real thing.  The loving way to engage in spiritual dialogue or even debate is to fit oneself within the presuppositional framework of your dialogue partners and empathize with the reasons why certain options are off the table for them.  Real change only comes from revolutionary and unexpected spiritual experiences.  

"Of course, my experiences are useless to you. They cannot change how you think."
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Actually, your experience ARE useful to me and really might change how I think.

Don