This is a big topic. One that cannot be covered in one thread.

Last night I was thinking about lucid dreams, and about obe's, and about renewing my own enthusiasm for new experiences, as I have done little of "exploration" recently. I put in a cd I hadn't worked with in a year or two. It is an experimental cd, supposedly takes you to a "flotation" feeling which will give you a sense of "eternity" while playing it.

I didn't expect much. I really wanted to relax anyway. There were many images which floated by, including a kind of "mostly suppressed" life review, very short. I felt a light ahead of me. I tried to experience this light. It seemed that perhaps I was imagining a near death process, a kind of "practice run" which followed the scripts of the nde's I have read about.

I had the feeling of many people in front of me. A large crowd immediately in front of me--lots of faces in the darkness.  I accepted that they might be there. This was not a particularly happy place I was in. But it was not sad or angry there either. I began "projecting" love, as much as I can do it, to my way of understanding it.

Soon, the meditation was over. I thought, well, interesting, it did expand my mind quite a bit, and I did receive so many images it was too hard to separate them.

There's peace out there for the taking. The "observer" (as Bruce Moen puts it) becomes aware of itself pretty quickly, and a pleasant "distance" from all that is being observed is possible. Therefore, there was a feeling of calmness.

Last night I dreamed. I haven't dreamed in a long time. I didn't plan to dream, but it had been on my mind that day that I would like to experience some lucid dreams. I had a vivid dream before I awoke. More was in my dreams which I tried to bring back with me, but it also was "crammed full" of images, almost as if I had been "catching up" and it was impossible to remember everything.

The image I had in my mind when I awoke was this. In my left hand I was holding my ex-husband's hand. In my right hand I was holding my current partner's hand. In the dream I was sitting down, and I held both of their hands. I felt a little odd in the dream, but I didn't let go.

A dream which implies balance, in my opinion. I am the link between the future and the past. And that it is okay. The link holds.

Well, none of this is mind boggling or proof of anything. Except this. Before coming to this site I am not sure I would know what to do with all of these "spirits" which appear in "flocks" in my psyche. Because of him I was sure that, no matter who these folks were, it was a good thing to project love, to tell them about the light, so I did.

No problem there. I could tell lots of stories about how meditation has "wowed me" and given me incredible peace and numerous interesting experiences. But, it seems that the biggest power for me is that it helps me to listen to what I need to hear.

Anyone? What is "the power of meditation" for you?

love, blink :)

cd used: Mind-Tek "X3 Infineon: Suspended Animation"
additional reason for meditation: I went to a funeral yesterday; Obama and Clinton are debating tonight in the next building over from mine at work, and the campaigns are using parts of the building in which I am located; etc. etc.

p.s. I read that it is a good idea to switch cds (or cd types) from time to time because the brain becomes used to specific patterns. Supposedly, it can be more effective this way, if this is the method you want to use.

For certain purposes, such as influencing personal behavior patterns in life, repeated listening is a good idea. The idea is to saturate the brain with the ideas you want to adopt, as in the many kinds of guided meditation.

But, for "exploration" purposes, it makes sense that occasional changes from the habitual use of the same methods would be more effective.

 I agree Blink, meditation is a great aid in learning how to listen.  It helps bring a necessary, and constructive Yin balance to us.

 So, once we have learned to listen, to go within, and to be receptive (Yin) and we start listening more and more, then what do we do?  What do we do with the info and ideals that we may gain through meditation?  

 I believe that if we want to fully and truly know Source and be at one with its Consciousness, we cannot fully realize this just through meditation alone, but when we come to the point of losing self through service (this requires a Yang/active balance, a higher octave Yang note).  

  That's the hard one, because it requires that perfect balance of Yang and Yin, which it seems few have so far mastered.   It requires constantly caring more about others and the collective rather than the little self.   It's a holistic process and balance of listening, being/channeling, and doing.  

  Sometimes its just more comfortable to stay more within the Yin part of it all.   Anyone can meditate, but it doesn't directly bring spiritual growth for anyone, though it is a definite aid or facilitator in that whole process.   We need some form of going within and quieting, because this world is so loud and outer focussed, but we can become too much the mystic if we become too attached to that safe place of inner quiet and closeting ourselves to achieve same.  There are different kinds of peace i have learned.  Sometimes there is peace at a price, and neither the price nor the motivation is love but rather fear of confrontation, pain, challenge, and outer inharmony.  

 Myself, lately i've been struggling a bit with the whole lose self in service thing.   There are times lately wherein i have very little time to "myself", because i have 3 clients i work with, its like i have 3 different jobs because of the driving involved (3 different places) and sometimes i find myself resenting this and not allowing joy to flow (money is not a big focus in this and i do not make a lot).  Sometimes i wish i had more time to myself, by myself.  I'm constantly surrounded by other people, and while i like being around our other selves, sometimes i just want to be alone too, to hear outer silence.  

  What more, i feel called to do more volunteer type activity too.   I feel somewhat torn.  One part of me wants to just be able to listen to music, watch a movie, read a book, chillax you know, hang out with my wife, write/express/read on forums, sit alone in the dark and outer quiet by myself, etc. you know ME time--down time..  

 Another part says, "you will never completely know Source until you care more about others than you do about the little self and its seemingly precious time to itself."  "you need to learn how to give it ALL away, on all levels, and in that giving do you truly gain."   "to be completely detached towards the little self and its wants"..

At the same time, this latter part of me also cautions to not rush the process, and that a certain amount of alone time is necessary, particularly meditation time and just relaxing, otherwise i will not hold effectively to my center in my more Yang endeavors and in my interactions with our others selves.  

 Dunno, this is where meditation has been leading me lately.   To a precipice of sorts, and i wonder am i strong enough to jump off this cliff with full trust..not completely knowing if there are warm waters below or not?   For me, it helps to look at an example of someone who already lived this completely and fully.   This example helps to keep me strong in the knowing that its the only true way to find one's real self and in order to perpetuate and speed up the process for others.  

Blink:

My feeling is that meditation will go only so far, if we don't let go of the thought patterns that bind us. The more we let go of thought patterns that bind us, the more we are able to abide as the spirit beings we are, regardless of what activity we are involved with.

Perhaps the people you experienced were illustrative of where you are at at this time.  You need to let go of limitations so you can ascend to a higher level. Finding a way to grow in love is the best way.  Perhaps the dream where you held hands with your deceased husband and current partner, is a way of telling you that love can be experienced at a level where you are completely intimate with everybody. A level where an ex husband and current partner would have no reason for being competitive with each other.

Not that there is anything wrong with having an intimate relationship with another person. However, if we insist that love needs to come in such a vehicle in order to be "special," we prevent ourselves from seeing that love has no bounds. My feeling is that beings who abide in higher realms, are completely intimate with all of the beings who abide in such a realm, without one being having to be more special than the other. They live according to a love where nobody has to prove anything to anybody else, in order to be completely lovable. When we learn to live according to the love such beings live according to, we'll make a connection to them even if we are currently inhabbiting a physical body.

Justin:

When it comes to the service thing, don't let guilt be your guide. Sometimes when we provide ourselves with free time so we can use the time to grow, our growth ends up benefiting others.

blink,

Churches often preach and taach about prayer, but seldom about meditation.  Yet the Psalms stress the importance of meditation even more than prayer.  Jesus taught by His example that meditation prior to petitionary prayer is a key to attracting miraculous healings.  I don't have time to address the question of the biblical way to meditate.

One of Jesus' younger contemporaries was a Jewish charismatic named Hanina ben Dosa.  He may well have been the Jewish exorcist mentioned in Mark 9:38-41 who invoked Jesus' name to do his exoricisms.  Though not a Christian, Hanina likely observed Jesus in action and seems to have embraced Jesus' teaching about faith healing.  Besides his role as an exorcist, Hanina too was famed for healing at a distance.

He was once asked about the key to his success as a faith healer.  I will discuss only one.
Hanina said that before he would prayer for the sick, he routinely meditated for an hour on God's love.  Once intimate union with God was established, he knew his prayers could bring healing miracles.

Don  

Blink, I get up between 4 and 5 every morning so I have time to spend 2 –3 hours in meditation and prayer. I also incorporate contemplation and Tai Chi during that time period. During warm weather I will do this outside. I love watching the sunrise.

Love, Kathy

I can agree Blink, and go on to say that for me it's probably hard to over emphasise the central role of meditation to the spiritual path. It's basically a training in 'not doing', but that's a lot subtler than it sounds in that for example 'trying not to think' is actually doing or worse still striving.

At the most basic level it's simply letting the mind be, not getting caught up in and retaining equanimity in the face of whatever arises - be it thought, obsession, fear, greed, lust, the gentler emotions or whatever.

When starting the mind seems to race, probably because prior to that we didn't remain aware enough of it enough to notice. With time it starts to slow, although many may never reach the stage of it's ceasing thought - but they do achieve 'watcher' status - the ability to as above watch mental events rise and fall. The technique is to rest the awareness of something not exciting but enough to keep it on it - like the breath, a dot on the wall, or a sound like a mantra.

This is basically shamatha or calm abiding in Buddhist terms.

The initial fruits might include calming, a sense of peace - space in Buddhist terms, making it much easier to notice thoughts and state of mind. With time it may lead to mindfulness, the ability to emain aware and not get sucked into tunnel vision, or to 'rest the mind' on whatever topic or phenomenon or state is is chosen.

This makes it much easier to observe our own behaviours, to catch ourselves in the act of doing what we didn't ought. Prior to this most of us really are not aware of what we are doing most of the time - we run such a high level of background arousal and the mind skitters between objects of attention so quickly and runs an unceasing good/bad judgement based continuous commentary on what we perceive (the mad monkey) that the resulting mental noise blocks any possibility of perception.

Getting the first look at the reality of ourselves and our lives and that of others can be a raw experience - we start for example to connect emotionally with those around us, and it can produce great sadness and hence compassion. The tender heart, agape. Not to mention strong emotions - shock at what we have been doing, revulsion, care for others, whatever.

This tends to lead to self directed changes in behaviour and so on - it's hard to harm somebody when you start to very acutely feel for them. But it also tends for a long time to come and go with state of mind, and what's going on in our lives - only stabilising after lots of time.

Common experiences at this sort of stage (but there's no good/bad, and no predictable timeline) include what can be a rather raw emotional opening, flowering of creativity, noticing of beauty in all sorts of unlikely things and so on. With further progress the world can start to take on a luminous and very beautiful quality as we come to properly rest in the moment.

Insight meditation or vipassana becomes a possibility at this sort of stage, we can use our new found ability to rest lightly on a topic to wait for insight to arise - and arise it does in the form of intuitive 'knowings'. Quite different to intellectual thought - these knowings tend to arise fully formed.

Further practice can depending on work and aptitude enable us to access 'non-ordinary' states of consciousness corresponding with what might be regarded as the sort of abilities reported on this board. (and eventually lots much more spectacular) Some of course seem to naturally have some of this sort of capability anyway - access to guides, lucid dreaming, formless states of bliss and so on. Each of which can be worked on in their own way provided we've gained sufficient stability, but that's a very long story.

Perceptions of reality and what's important in life tend to change radically as a result of experience and intuitive knowing. It becomes possible to work with deeper levels of mind and to consequently re-programme what seem to be quite permanent conditioning or aspects of personality - quite a lot of this is automatic. With time the intellect so revered in normal life becomes a very limited tool indeed, although that too tends to become enhanced.

These states and the abilities associated with them too start to become capable of being carried out into sleep (sleeping while conscious for example) and normal life - eventually all life and experience becomes a meditation. No matter what happens we retain equanimity, and stay watching. We don't get sucked into total identification with thought - the observer is always present.

The whole process is said to unfold in seven stages. Here's a page by a well loved Tibetan Lama describing them: http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/pabongka/sevenpoint.shtml

The above is a fairly dry explanation and I'm no expert, but I can vouch for the ability of meditation to both greatly increase peace of mind, and open us to all sorts of insight as above. It's not necessarily the smoothest ride ever (I've shed more tears in the fifteen years since starting to meditate than I think in the rest of my life), and it generally requires establishing a long term commitment (ideally you might retreat into a cave up a mountain for ten or twelve years, but even moderate amounts of practice produce very noticeable results) but boy has it been central to my path.

All of my 'non ordinary experience and emotional opening has come through meditation and related contemplation. This is the 'mind training' we all need, a big part of the 'spiritual work' so to speak, but don't perceive the requirement for. Makes sense if you think about it - we see it as quite logical to mind our diet and train the body so why not the mind?

It's hard to beat the Buddhist groups for their knowledge of practical techniques, and availability of low cost training. The likes of Shambhala or Rigpa will happily teach non Buddhists, the former especially have a 'secular' path of meditation training. (levels 1 - 5 as they call them).

:)That's an impressive commitment Kathy, I tend to do around 45 min a day.

Hi blink,
members,

:)

Good topic.
What is more urgent than the single most important thing necessary for the transformation and divinisation of individuals and the world?

Meditation is unquestionably a dynamic activity that requires patience, vigilance, receptivity, poise and dedication. Real meditation is direct spiritual growth in action. It is action in establishing among other things, stillness of the mind and the body. This is not easy thing to do, but there is really no other more effective way to transform the waking consciousness.

It is so much more than a chillin', relaxin', balancing 'antidote' to a confusing, tiring, frustrating outer world - like a beer at the end of a tough day - as this common contemporary notion incorrectly trivializes the real potential of meditation. That premise is based simply on lethargy, inertia, or the absense of activity, which is the natural state of the inert body when not animated by any higher principle - also like allowing the consciousness to simply be carried along like a wild child taking a ride on the perpetually busy, noisey and very important mind's roller coaster, or being swept along passively within streams of desire fulfillment, personality division and aggression, or to be lulled into sleep, the natural state of the gross physical. Being swept along (our consciousness that is) by ignorance, is in the spiritual sense (soul's pov) a type of inertial passive inactivity, even though it seems like William S. said - "much ado" - even if only "about nothing" (or was that Jerry S?). This is why spiritual traditions speak of illusion.  What is needed is dynamism in tranquility - the real activity mode of the soul - to displace and replace the inactivity of the consciousness identified as a passive instrument with the ignorant physical world and its ignorant animators.

The mind must be consciously, deliberately and actively made tranquil and receptive.
In fact, there has to be a very dynamic vigilance involved in establishing and maintaining a state of both inner equanimity of mind and outer poise of gross physical and vital bodies. The lower aspects or components of the being must be subservient to the higher, not the other way around as is fairly normal in our world - and the reason the world is as we find it.

The outer world will always be a difficult dangerous place if we do not meditate in order to transcend and transform the inherent ignorance of the base reality we find ourselves in - including our own nature. Fortunately we have this potential within us. Is there any tradition which denies this? Meditation is literally a transformation of consciousness and life which means the alteration of reality itself  - no matter what dimension one may find 'oneself' "in".

It is not just learning how to listen - it is the listener becoming both the sound and the ear at once.
What is being listened to? The higher and highest parts of ones own being.

Meditation is a conscious ascension into higher realms within the waking physical consciousness. What is experienced is increasingly retained just like with any practice, and becomes increasingly usable on the physical plane. That is because there is also a 'descent' into the physical of the higher consciousness by the receptivity one actively creates in meditation.

Meditation is a subjective identification with some consciousness, hopefully a higher one.
It is receptivity in action.
It brings direct growth and transformation.
It is a 'retrieval' process by one's own soul for one's own being - that we can invoke, cooperate in, and become the recipients of. This is the most important retrieval because it determines for the individual, the possibility and quality of all other 'retrievals' of other individuated consciousness in any other dimension - including on the physical, where we currently often find ourselves in the here and now, wherever that is.

Which is better - meditation or service? Yes, anybody can meditate. And yes, anybody can also be self-giving, too. The questions then might be: What are we meditating on? What are we giving of? It is an illusion of sorts to treat these as two different questions for they are really one and the same.  

For people who meditate what happens is that the meditation becomes a service, an active self-giving service to the universe, to God, in the form of self-transformation, or God-becoming - then the transforming and transformed being is used as an 'instrument'  of service in the mundane world - and this service, because of the quality embodied in what is being offered, becomes like a meditation. So these are potentially quite interchangeable with no essential difference in the end - like 2 sides of a coin. It is the value/quality that matters and that quality is determined by the intent and the effectiveness of practice, both of which could be said to originate with and continue because of Grace.

Afterall, what good is 'service' if we don't embody what is needed to be given, or if we do not know when to give, how to give, what to give, who to give to? Meditation provides all of those things. It creates the very capacity to serve. Otherwise we may simply be foisting the frustrations of our untransformed ignorance, its products and byproducts - onto our fellow human beings and the world, and who benefits from that?

And what good is meditating if we can't use it to grow into our own highest divinity, to receive ourselves what is of real value, what is our real identity to therefore be of the best service to the Creator and the Creation whatever that Will is for us as individuals?

The two aspects are inseparable and need to be developed together.

It is significant that the peace, poise, dynamism, clarity, light, love, etc. - when acquired incrementally, and cumulatively in an ongoing meditation practice, can then be brought forward more easily in the general waking consciousness. These qualities become more familiar in the waking consciousness and begin to displace the more common manifestations of 'normal modes of consciousness', and therefore can be available to ourselves and others, and be increasingly utilized in 'wordly' activities of any sort - which are then suffused with the qualities received in the meditation practice.

After some time and depending on the intensity and sincerity of one's practice, one can meditate more and more within many outer situations, even while doing things like driving. This is part of what is called 'ascension'  - the holding of progressively higher consciousness while engaged in earthly activity.

Either in a personal or collective sense - meditation is not an escape or avoidance of life by any means. It is an active practice in detachment from physical plane ignorance. This detachment is not indifference - quite the contrary. Meditation is extremely useful and powerfully transforming, both for oneself and the world. It is a form of self-giving and self-transformation - one component of the whole, raising the consciousness of the totality by raising one part, and also by having a transformative effect on all other parts as well in the process.

Meditation is a specific type of action, real work. It is literally discovery of , communion with, and acquisition of one's true Self. Of course, anybody can meditate - this is true because everybody has a soul.  What kind of day will you have when you get up in the early morning and meditate before doing anything else?  I'm sure Kathy knows. This is where the holistic rubber really meets the road. It becomes a comprehensive venture involving and integrating every life-decision and activity since priorities need to be established. Iow's - it is sometimes difficult to get up at 4 or 5 am to meditate on God if we also need to watch the Jay Leno Show the night before. Not everyone has the will to do this even though anybody can certainly talk about it. Not everybody has the devotion to acquire the will to do this. But everything is possible. And if practice means anything - it means working with the possible in order to create the inevitable.

With meditation life is and becomes quite different on all levels. But this takes time, patience, humility, sincerity, devotion, dedication, determination and perserverance.  What is the point of trying to meditate if you are going to then cancel out its potentials by indulging in other things that lower the consciousness and make it more difficult to meditate, thus drawing back to the original starting place? How can one lose a few pounds by eating many pizzas every day and not exercising, etc.?  

This issue of consistency of action and intent is exactly the same and parallel to what actually transpires internally on a moment-to-moment basis (only on much more subtle levels) in ordering priorities of consciousness when engaged in meditation. ie: Indulge wayward thoughts or concentrate? Pray for receptivity or think about grilled cheese sandwiches? Open heart with gratitude or think jealously about friend's new car? It is difficult to do, and yet this process needs to be reckoned with as everyone starts from some place and gradually goes forward from that place. But it is generally productive to use action that is consistent with ones goals, and the more this is done the more this can be done. In this way meditation is structurally the same as any learning process, only remarkably - - it is the easiest, cheapest, most far reaching, most reliable, safest, most accessible, simplest bar none - means to transform a life in the greatest, most profound and ultimate sense.

There is real power inside poise and that is why in a good meditation, people often feel a simultaneous and inseparable peace and dynamism . The peace is actually a latent expression of power. Eventually this displaces the 'rush' of the outer personality's modes of objective ego projection into the world (with its subsequent painful consequences because not 'real', ie: based on ignorance) - and reality is transformed subjectively as individual personality becomes the conscious instrument of the soul, which has inherent oneness with All.

- u   :)


Links of possible interest on the subject:

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/search?SearchableText=meditation  
over 3000 references on meditation by Sri Chinmoy - poems, q&a, essays, etc. randomly returned by search

http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/meditation
an entire site devoted to meditation and important subtopics such as 'samadhi'.

You can also link further to videos showing advanced states of meditation

I grew up in a religious family that faithfully started the day off with devotions and prayer, so I’ve done this for so long that I don’t know any different.  ;D

Seriously, this is truly the best way I can think of to start off the day. I should say that I don’t spend that entire time sitting in meditation/prayer. I spend about an hour more or less doing that. I also “feel” prayer rather than spout off a bunch of words. If I have 3 hours I’ll spend about an hour contemplating something preplanned like reading a devotion and thinking about what it means. The other hour I spend doing a combination of Tai Chi / Q-gong / and “standing like a tree” exercise.

While I agree that sitting in meditation/prayer is transforming, the most beneficial for me has been the standing like a tree exercise which aligns my intention with the godhead through a laser-like line that runs from about 3 ft. above the head, through the center of the body and down into the earth. I believe this line is the central channel that kundalini travels. Even though I’m standing still, it is very physical with focused thought that invokes the power centers within; the tan tien, soul seat also called the high heart and the connection to the godhead about 2 – 3 ft. above the crown that aligns intention with God’s will. When I’m able to connect, it is a powerful experience. Heaven and earth connecting. As above, so below.

Kathy

Hi everyone

Very nice posts here

I would like to add a simple comment (or two :) )
on some of the benefits gained through practice
as it recently came into focus:

the dependance to time
as if suddenly its dominancy fades
and you get to realize that the time you spent in meditation
has not really stolen anything from your schedule
as you seem to do as much if not more than before
in less time than before

sometimes it almots feels as if by finding the right moment to act
the acting is done through you, with less effort
as if it was planned the way it is beeing done
and has always been done...

like turning back suddenly to realize that
all the pieces came into place
without much physical investment

I feel a part of that comes from concentration
and another part probably from accepting things as they are
and not wasting time on what is not worth it (not feasible or not worth beeing done)

recent readings on the subject:
An orderly chaos: Chogyam Trungpa
where you rediscover the notion of your life beeing a mandala
you in the center, the world all around
balancing all parts of your life from the inside

You could also add Meditation in action, also by C. Trungpa

and The meditative mind by Daniel Goleman
a classic, that still has the merit of putting side to side
the various forms of meditation

Those are relatively old books
but how they came in my hands now
made sense and specifically on that last point:
they seem to fill a gap that has been part of me since my twenties
explaining what i always felt i was missing
as if I was out of the current drifting
knowing that the mainstream was not far away...

those books are the mainstream suddenly rediscovered
and in my practice, they seemed to be part of a found past
suddenly reemerging for me to complete

I think one of the roles of meditation
is to permit the ordering of your life
layer after layer,
without which, no real progress can be made

That's rather beautifully put Jazel. You've mentioned some of my favourite books too.....

recoverer wrote on Feb 21^st, 2008 at 2:48pm:

Blink: My feeling is that meditation will go only so far, if we don't let go of the thought patterns that bind us. The more we let go of thought patterns that bind us, the more we are able to abide as the spirit beings we are, regardless of what activity we are involved with.

  Hi Albert, i very much agree with the above, and i will give some real life examples of the above.  
 I've met some folks who have said that they have been meditating for years, but who i didn't get a particularly loving and intune kind of vibe from.   Perhaps they have simply learned to become receptive to not so intune and/or non constructive sources?

 I've met others who have never, or rarely meditated in the more traditional (usually labeled "Eastern") way, who radiated a lot of love and wisdom.    Sure, regular meditation would probably help bring this out even more in them, i'm not knocking meditation at all, i believe it's an important aid and process, otherwise i wouldn't practice it.  

 I would agree with you, someone could meditate for years and years, and if they didn't drop certain limiting thought patterns, habits, etc., then spiritually they may not grow as much as they think such meditation would somehow automatically bring them.  

   But, at the same time, i believe meditation can help people to open up to the awareness of what is blocking them, as well as just having a clearing and balancing affect.   But again, it depends on what one chooses to listen too, become receptive too, etc.  

  That's the thing about meditation, it puts one into a much more receptive state.   It is very akin to the whole notion of hypnosis.   Hypnosis in and of itself is a rather neutral state.  In hypnosis one can program self with either constructive suggestions, or with destructive suggestions, the hypnosis just simply allows for a better, more direct and deeper programming.  
Meditation is very similar.   One can open self in meditation and without the right ideals, without the right intentions, without the right attitude and suggestions/affirmations, and come into alignment with parts of themselves or outside influences which aren't very helpful and constructive.  Believe it or not, there are some dark energies who are quite happy when they find out certain more vulnerable individuals have started meditating.

 Low vibrating sources in other words.   Conversely, with the right ideals, intentions, etc. one can open self to the very Creative God forces.   I know when i've had flashes of intense White Light,and feel feelings of complete joy, peace, and connectedness that i've opened up to the highest within/without.
Similar with psychism.   Psychism is of the Soul, and these are Soul senses based on shifting more to the receptive/Yin to receive and to become aware of our receiving, but we can align to both constructive and non constructive flows.   Bruce Moen's account of the psychic medium lady who connected to a "guide" named Sean is a good example of that.   Well folks with strong psychic tendencies, are simply folks who tend to be more receptive than the average person, more in touch with the "Right brain nature" of themselves--this is why there tends to be more actively, deeply, and consistently intuitive women out there then men, because more women are more innately receptive and Yin in nature and tendency.

 As regards my earlier post, i was more addressing the extremes.  I was addressing the Monk, Mystic, and/or Yogi type who closets themselves away from the world, sits in a cave or monestary (for example), meditates all the time, but who doesn't really live life.  Anyone can feel holy when in an Ashram or on top of a Mountain with just self and nature to interact with.  But, how many folks can maintain that state of At-One-Ment within a close, marital type relationship for example or in a 9 to 5 type job?   It's those conditions, those areas of life, which are where the real growth takes place in our choosing, because there is more challenge to face (speaking on average).    

 Such folks as the Monk/Mystic/Yogi type can become over polarized to the Yin within self oft, they become very Water, and sometimes too much so.    Such folks could really use some Fire balance and go out and use that ability to listen, to be receptive, for the greater good of the collective.   Such as that lady i mentioned on the aura thread, who devoted some 60 years of her life to holistic service to others even in the face of constant personal danger and material want.   THAT is why she had an almost pure White Light aura.    

   As i've said, meditation helps out in that process, but ultimately it's the choices we make in  our daily lives, which either bring growth or block or retard same and the thought patterns, etc. we choose to consistently align with.     If one gets intune enough, then they start to maintain that more balanced and receptive state more and more in their "normal" waking hours.    Again, what i would stress is not receptivity in and of itself which brings growth, but what one chooses to become receptive too, and then how you put that into holistic living/action/service.    

Also again, your intentions and motivations for meditation (or anything in life) are very important.    Some folks seem to go into this whole thing, not because they want to lift up the collective by expanding self, but because want to think of themselves as "spiritual" in nature, or want to develop certain powers or have knowledge that others don't, for some examples.     I've met some of these kinds of folks too.   I guess its rather obvious that i disagree with the whole, "meditation automatically brings one spiritual development" over simplified belief thing.    It's more shades of gray than that, like most things in life.  

 

 

 I really like Bruce Moen's take on meditation and effective methods for same, because it is really simple and easy to understand.  

 Before i get to that, would just add that for me, meditation is like emptying or maybe clearing self.    But, it seems that many leave it at the clearing, emptying point, or what Bruce calls the "Void".  

 To put into more modern terms, this is what i would call pure, or near pure polarization to the Right brain mode or state.    Purely passive and receptive.   Almost completely still.   This is like Source before it moved and became a Creator.  

 To me, there is not much helpfulness in and of itself, to consistently shift into this state or mode.   So you empty or clear yourself, so that you can fill up with positivity/Light, wherein you actually expand.   That's why prayer, or what some call either affirmations, positive suggestions, giving thanks or feeling gratitude, or general positive intentioning is SOOO important and integral to the whole meditation process.   This creates a circular flow of giving and receiving, so that eventually this can be experienced and known as One.  

 Anyways, back to Bruce Moen and his techniques.   One of the simple methods he teaches, which i have found to be very helpful in my own experience too, is that when one relaxes or meditates, after quieting self, you consciously remember and shift to a memory wherein you felt a lot of love, which is accompanied by feelings of joy, gratitude, peace, etc.  Doesn't matter what the specific memory is so much, but the feeling of it which is important.  

  Once you remember that moment or feeling of Love, then focus on that, let it into your whole being, this is both a concentration and yet allowance at the same time.    

 For me, its important to direct that out in a conscious sense as well.   If i've had a difficult interaction with a particular person or even life condition and have thought or felt negatively towards them, i feel that love in relation to that person or condition, and/or to myself in relation.  

 Many times, i will just direct it out to the Universe in general, knowing that it will "go" wherever needed, and i feel a lot of gratitude and appreciation to the Creator and to Creation in general.  

  Very simple, but powerful stuff here.   This feeling and direction of PUL is the most powerful and uplifting stuff around.   If you can allow yourself into this kind of space, then those more Creative and constructive Sources can more easily attune and connect with you, greatly helping out and facilitating the process.     This also automatically repels those sources who would mislead you in that more receptive state.   Like attracts and begets like.

 A good analogy is, those misleading and non constructive sources are kind of like people who have been living underground for a long time without much light at all.   The Light is love and spiritual attunement.  

   PUL and opening to same, is particularly bright and pure Light, and the underground people used to the dark, will shy away from this Light once too close to it because it seems to hurts their eyes.    It doesn't really, but they have convinced themselves that it will (ideally, this Light will act as a positive catalyst for them somehow).      Point is, you can't be negatively influenced while in that space.    

 

My take on the question of meditation producing or not producing spiritual opening Justin is based on observation of quite few people over the years and tends to be more along the lines that the problem is not that meditation does not work, but rather that many people do not truly meditate.

Or that the ability to truly meditate only develops over time, and that in some cases despite the appearance of meditating there's so much forcing and grasping going on and the technique is so far off that no opening is actually occurring at all and no progress is being made.

Yet there are other for whom it produces clear progress - they become something else. Perhaps the two extremes are starting from very different situations.

It's maybe worth saying too that meditation is not necessarily confined to sitting on the cushion, there's many that meditate quite spontaneously and unknowingly in normal life.

I guess it's in the end a peculiarity that the journey and the destination are about the same thing - the establishment of the ability to rest easily while observing with equanimity what arises in our external or internal worlds  - without reacting in a conditioned manner to these, usually out of fear or distraction.

When we start meditating first we may if we practice and use the right technique get to the point where we can in absence of strong stimulus or distraction move into a space that approximates to this, at least for short periods.

With time the state deepens. And with more time it eventually reaches out so that it's spontaneously maintained right through normal life - awake, asleep, in the face of great disturbance, threats, fearsome events etc.

It's in other words possibly better to think of meditation as a multi hued journey than dualistically as an 'is', or 'is not' state....

wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 8:38am:

My take on the question of meditation producing or not producing spiritual opening Justin is based on observation of quite few people over the years and tends to be more along the lines that the problem is not that meditation does not work, but rather that many people do not truly meditate.

 It's like anything in life, its like life itself, much of it depends on the deeper intentions, motivations, more core desires, etc.     Kind of like what you said to me on another thread re: another subject.

 Again, to me, the more important point is not to become receptive for receptivity's sake, but to become receptive to one's highest spiritual ideal, desires and intentions.   And again, one can open (become receptive too) to very constructive energies or not so constructive energies.

 A lot of stuff that i've read on meditation, particularly the more Eastern sourced stuff, seemed to emphasize the receptivity in and of itself at the lack of the positive programming and intention aspect which i've found integral to the whole process.  

  You've read Bruce's stuff?   He talks about a similar thing, and mentions the "Void" and how some folks and teachings seem to over emphasize the Void and seeking to be in that state, and thus essentially seek to completely shut off the "left brain" side to us, which he calls the interpreter.  

 For me, it is usually fairly easy to shift into that void state and for a long time i thought that is what i was supposed to experience for "true meditation" since so many books i had read put this on such a pedestal.     Eventually i was able to achieve this and didn't find much help in this until i learned and started to incorporate more "prayer" type activity in with my meditation.  I see prayer as the more Yang activity and meditation as the more Yin balance.   In my experience, these are both needed and prayer requires that the left brain part of us stays active as well as the right brain.  

  I'm stressing that balance, because like i said, many sources that i've read have over stressed the more purely Yin aspect of meditation and that process as a whole.  


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Or that the ability to truly meditate only develops over time, and that in some cases despite the appearance of meditating there's so much forcing and grasping going on and the technique is so far off that no opening is actually occurring at all and no progress is being made.

 Yup, i'm sure this is fairly common.  It's like anything, the more you practice it the easier it becomes in a consistent sense.   In any case, i would say that any kind of conscious relaxation is good for the mind, body, and the interconnection between same unless one let's self become open to those non constructive forces.  

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Yet there are other for whom it produces clear progress - they become something else. Perhaps the two extremes are starting from very different situations.

 Yes, i'm sure there is probably a whole range with many shades of gray for many, and also the extremes for some.  


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It's maybe worth saying too that meditation is not necessarily confined to sitting on the cushion, there's many that meditate quite spontaneously and unknowingly in normal life.

 Definitely.   When i run, i start to enter into a meditative state.  When i do daily stretches with one of my clients, i oft shift into a natural state of meditation.  When i write a longer post i oft shift into a Hemi-sync like state, which requires both listening deeply and actively expessing and putting together.    

 Actually, i find that i spend quite a lot of time in the alpha and theta brainwave states.   This might explain my oft horrible sense of driving directions even though i have a pretty decent memory otherwise.  

 I recently read that some studies have shown that as practiced meditators get deeper into the meditation, that their abilities in recognizing and reorienting in space/time tend to go out the window more and more.   Since i seem to naturally spend so much of my "time" in those deeper states, it would make sense that my abilities in the above would tend to lack like they do.  

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I guess it's in the end a peculiarity that the journey and the destination are about the same thing - the establishment of the ability to rest easily while observing with equanimity what arises in our external or internal worlds  - without reacting in a conditioned manner to these, usually out of fear or distraction.

 Yup, but i would point out that perhaps there is too much stressing of the observer/receiver (the Right brain aspect) for lack of a greater balance.  

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When we start meditating first we may if we practice and use the right technique get to the point where we can in absence of strong stimulus or distraction move into a space that approximates to this, at least for short periods.

 Are you talking about the vaunted void state?  

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With time the state deepens. And with more time it eventually reaches out so that it's spontaneously maintained right through normal life - awake, asleep, in the face of great disturbance, threats, fearsome events etc.

 Ideally yes, and especially if one is taking those measures in their daily life to align to their more specific times of meditation.   Meaning, if they choose to use their freewill in more positive ways.  Meditation does not guarantee nor make this happen, but it is a potential facilitator and balancer in this whole process.   Instead of saying the "power of meditation" i would say, the power of Will and choosing positively.    

There are some who being imbalanced within self, who when they open self in meditation without the right intentions, desires, affirmations, prayers, etc., attract energies to them which aren't all that constructive and would mislead them and can more easily do so since they are now much more receptive than the normally would be.   Waking life or C1 consciousness is on a positive side, an insulator or barrier to this.  Consciously intending to open to PUL is also an insulator for this.


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It's in other words possibly better to think of meditation as a multi hued journey than dualistically as an 'is', or 'is not' state....

 Yup, like most things in life, there tends to be many shades of gray to consider, and yet the extremes at the same time.   Those who consistently maintain a Hemi-Sync type state in their "normal waking" hours, can see both and the relative interactions at the same time.

  For some (especially those over intellectual, often more so men), a good, deep and real belly laugh would facilitate more positive energy balancing and shifting than 1 hour of deep meditation in the void state.    Real humor has the automatic affect to really open up the Heart Center.   When i say "real humor", i don't mean calculated, petty, sarcastic remarks which is a way of venting one's own negative spleen, but rather spontaneous and whole being laughter, smiling, and humor.  Smiling, not smirking.  

 Now, if you feel a similar spontaneous and deep joy in your meditation, you're in good hands and moving in the right direction i would say.      

Not sure if we're using the same terminology Justin, but there's a definite tendency for people to strive  to achieve some sort of 'no thought' state in meditation. This is a contradiction in terms, in that it entails striving, and seems likely to end up in suppression.

'Blissing out' in some sort of pleasant but detached from normal reality state is generally regarded as not being awfully useful either, in that the idea of meditation (at least at the basic level) is to train some sort of ability to retain some basic equanimity in the face of internal or eternal events.

Meditation does seem to bring up all sorts of stuff in people that have been suppressing or masking what they don't want to become conscious of. It's said that when we create some space in the mind that we become able to perceive what we couldn't before. But that's one aspect of it's usefulness - it brings stuff to consciousness so that we get the opportunity to process it.

Not sure what you mean by 'void', but exercise or other flow type activities are great examples of naturally occurring meditation.

I guess you're right about the left/right brain stuff too, but much of what's taught and written about meditation comes from the perspective that most people are in a situation where the thinking mind or intellect is in runaway babble mode all the time, and their conditioning is always to get sucked into intellectually treating stuff. ( ::)I should know!)

Meaning that to get back to some sort of clearer seeing state it needs first to be trained to rest more quietly, or at least we need to learn not to keep on reacting so intensely to what arises. That's not to say that the intellect and rationality don't eventually have a lot to add, or that they should not react at all but for most of us it dominates to excess.

I think that if we can get back to a state of calm abiding that the likes of lightness, humour, compassion, kindness and so on arise naturally - out of the restored connection with the heart side...

Hi Ian, by "void" i mean the state wherein all thought seems to cease, complete stillness and silence.  

 Many of the books that i've read over the years which talked about meditation, seemed to stress this state as the end all to what meditation is about.   Many have said to avoid or let go of any and all images, thoughts, feelings, etc. that arise in meditation--particularly the ones really influenced by Eastern teachings or teachers seem to emphasize this.

 I would call this the more purely Yin aspect of meditation, and while i see it as a necessary part of the process, i also try to stress the more Yang aspect of meditation, which some call prayer, and also using what Bruce calls the Interpreter.  

 The "Perceiver/Observer" could said to correspond to what we call the right brain side to us, and when we polarize to that state, the "Void" is experienced.   It is purely Feminine, pure Receptive and feeling in nature--it's easy to lose conscious awareness in this state and to "fall asleep".  
For some, particularly those over polarized to the Yang (like many men), at first it's helpful to experience this state to help gain a better balance.   For those who are already too Yin to begin with (like many women), well while the "Void" is quite attractive to them, they need more active Interpreter/Yang/Left brain reorientation to gain a greater overall balance and Wholeness.  

 The "Interpreter" part of us, could be said to correspond to what we call the left brain aspect.  It is the active, doing, thinking, choosing, creating, and differentiating part of us.  

 They're always connected, but in most people there tends to be an imbalance.   As i've said oft here, many times the state wherein we are more predominantly and consistently polarized too, we tend to put on either a unconscious or conscious pedestal.   This can be seen in the long time schism and conflict between the West and East, or between women and men.   It seems that on a whole, the West has mostly emphasized the Interpreter aspect, the more active, and the East has mostly emphasized the Perceiver/Observer aspect, the more passive and receptive.    

 Other times, when we are actively trying to incorporate or integrate the side we tend to lack a balance of, we sometimes put that expression on a pedestal because we sense on some level that this will help to make us more Whole.  

 I see both all the time, and its a projection of our own inner imbalance but yet we're also seeking balance/merging.    

  This issue ties in a lot with meditation, and really with every aspect of human life.  

 In meditation, i rarely use any of my Hemi-Sync CD's anymore, but lot's of times when i meditate, i can feel that moment when i come into the Hemi-Sync state, it has a distinct feeling and shifting quality to it.   I both simultaneously "expand" and contract at the same time, if that makes any sense.   It's a state wherein i'm both receptive--observing and also actively participating.    

 

I guess the only bit I'd be cautious about is this question of seeking 'voidness' during meditation. None of the Buddhist groups I've had teaching from (Rigpa, Shambhala and briefly a Soto Zen group) have taught  any requirement to achieve stillness. Shambhala very explicitly warn that it's (at least so far as vipsassana or calm abiding is concerned) about retaining equanimity as thoughts and later event in our lives arise.

Pema Chodron, a Buddhist nun who has been meditating for many years for example says that to this day she's never reached any sort of stillness, although she has achieved considerable equanimity.

I guess the point is that  stillness if it arises is emergent - it's not something we can will into existence. While meditating we just keep on day after day, year after year noticing when stuff arises (thoughts, emotions whatever), choosing to not engage with them, and instead returning to the breath or the sound or the object we're (lightly) resting our attention on.

Maybe eventually we'll become able on occasion to reach some sort of still point, but this may take a very long time, or may not happen in this lifetime at all.

Long before this point is reached the opening or reduced intensity of chatter will enable us to 'see' stuff the noise (said to be intentional  - a strategy of the ego to keep what it fears out of our awareness) was blocking, and out of this all sorts of integration and balancing like those you describe may take place.

By this point we may experience more flow in life - we somehow process and function normally without becoming overly identified with what we do, without getting sucked into our own dramas. Like your exercise situation.

Stillness it seems may eventually become necessary to enable access to some of the jhanas or higher states which are very very subtle, but it's a very long road to that point.

I think many conceptualise and objectivise meditation, and as a result mistakenly make an objective out of silence, but perhaps mistakenly so...

 Toning/chanting in relation to meditation:    I'm curious as to other people's experiences and intuitions regarding using Toning/Chanting as an energy gathering and balancing aid in meditation?  

  It's funny, but even though i really like and vibe with much of the Cayce material, which recommended Toning as an aid in meditation, i didn't take it seriously for awhile.   I thought to myself, "well how can making sounds with your throat really accomplish anything?"  

The Cayce readings recommended a more intuitive approach to toning/chanting, and didn't recommend a particular mantra or name, etc to be repeated as found in some other belief systems.    There were certain chants mentioned more often as helpful (maybe even more universally so?), than others, such as OhhMmmm  and ArrrEeeeOhhmmm, but often people were given suggestions to experiment and feel different vowel sounds, to use one's intuition and experiences as a guiding force.  

  Later on, i came across toning/chanting via The Monroe Institute and various sources and authors connected to same.    As anyone who has used the in home Gateway set, or has gone to a Monroe Institute program knows, toning is a definite part of the energy gathering process used there in order to go more deep and to get more clear.  

To show how dense i can be, even then i still didn't take it seriously and didn't seriously practice it for awhile.   Oh, i tried it out here and there but didn't really let myself experience and get lost in it.  

 But, i was slowly but surely starting to understand how the body relates to the Soul, and how both relate to Spirit.    I was beginning to really get an inkling of an oft repeated concept in the Cayce readings, which emphasized time and time again, a necessary balance between the body, the mind (not the intellect, but more relating to Soul), and the spiritual (Spirit).  

  I was already making some necessary body adjustments by changing my diet more and more and incorporating more exercise, motivated mostly by the ideal "the body is the Temple, and a strong, healthy, and balanced body allows for a greater and more clearer expression of Mind and Light within the physical, not for yourself so much, but to be of better service to others ideally."    Course, there was more selfish motives too, after all who likes to experience dis-ease, of which i had some challenging experiences with.  

  Anyways, for whatever reason, i started to become more open and receptive to the idea of seriously incorporating Toning/Chanting into my meditation practice.  

 I started to more seriously practice it, particularly in the intuitive way that Cayce's guidance oft recommended.    

 I started noticing a definite clearing/balancing and expanding going on, the more i sincerely practiced it.    I realized that the physical, etheric, and emotional bodies were particularly affected and that these bodies being slower vibrating in nature, and tending towards more blockages were being helped by Toning.  

 I realized that toning seems to directly affect the Endocrine glands in the body, which are the interface centers which relate to the nonphysical consciousnesses within us (but we being materially minded, often translate at first to be "without").  

  The potentially balancing, activating, and clearing affect of Toning became more obvious and immediate to me when i took the Gateway Voyage program at The Monroe Institute.    At different points in some of my meditations, i noticed a very distinct and very noticeable heating affect and feeling going on with my physical body.  

 It seemed like the molecular vibrations were becoming greatly speeded up in the actual physical vibratory range, and this was translating as a greater and greater feeling of warmth and heat, even though TMI kept the place rather cool and normally one's core body temp. drops when one is still for more than 20 or so minutes at a time.  

  A few other people in our group, also reported some of this very noticeable heating affect.   I realized for myself, when i was in that more receptive state of meditation, i was listening more to guidance about which sounds to tone, in which patterns, in changing the pitch, etc.    It was like my endocrine glands were 7 strings, and i was plucking them in different patterns, and strengthening, clearing, balancing these and creating more harmonious and clearer connections between them as a Whole.  

  Anyways, as i've said, i'm interested in other people's experiences and intuitions regarding this particular meditational aid.    Has the practice of same, helped you personally?   Are there certain patterns you particularly found helpful?    Have you also had the noticeable heating sensation of the body during and/or after toning?    Did it help you to explore the nonphysical more clearly?