Roger,

I know you are a skeptic who is wise enough to discern the true dynamics of what has transpired on your thread.  I will reply in the way I would have replied before all the flap and cries for censuring Albert. I will address your question from the perspective of the afterlife principle like attracts like.  This principle is widely embraced both by biblical Christianity (e. g. Matthew 7:2) and by astral adepts.  I want to challenge this principle not because it is incorrect, but because it is too vague and embryonic and needs refinement and supplementation from other spiritual principles that affect one's postmortem destiny.

I will focus on Jesus and ignore gurus and channeled entities that I have critiqued in other threads over the years.  Jesus stresses the neglected insight that words are the least important part of prayer, in part because God knows what we need before we ask Him: "When you pray do not keep on babbling like pagans; for they think they will be heard because of their many words (Matthew 6:7)."  Jesus recognizes that pious words, though necessary, function as bars that imprison us in illusory self-images and give us a simplistic grasp of love that functions like a booby prize which substitutes for the real reward--an intuitive feel for a state of mind that truly transforms and translates into a holy obsession with a lifestyle of selfless service to God and other people.  Debates about PUL (astral or earthly), though potentially helpful, are limited by vagaries and preconceptions that prevent the word "love" from inspiring a lifestyle that makes it real.  Thus, Jesus recognized the importance of other terms (e. g. humility, gratitude, grace) that, at first sight, seem to be additional virtues, though in fact they are manifestations of love.  But we must speak as if there are many distinct virtues to confront the barrier imposed by language to accessing the permanent mood and set of attitudes that cannot easily be expressed in words, but which seem to be a signficant basis for postmortem evolutionary soul progression.

The concept of soul retrievals already implies that denizens of a lower spirit plane evolve with different spiritualities despite the character affinities that initially drew them to that plane.   Some are ready for retrievals and others are not.  Those who get ready are increasingly unlike their "neighbors."   How this spiritual difference within character uniformity is enhanced remains a mystery which requires further astral exploration.    To what extent do seme denizens of a hellish plane begin to make more loving choices on their own?   What role do spirit guides/ saints/ angels/ Christ play?  Better answers to such questions might lead us to a more comprehensive grasp of the ultimate meaning and plan of human existence.  

Among His other roles, Jesus was a prophet.  A prophet's mission is to clarify how each doctrine in one's belief system has merit only if it contributes to a more spiritual lifestyle.  Whenever pre-Christian Israelites or followers of Jesus forgot the relevance of beliefs to concrete service, the validity of their doctrine was temporarily suspended by prophets until the loving purpose of each doctrine was rediscovered and actualized in personal lifestyles.

In my next post, I will discuss Jesus' [and Paul's] teaching about the most elusive of virtues--humility.  I will explain how this virtue is a key to genuine mystical experience and to progress in the afterlife.  I am very busy these days, so it may take some  time to develop the various strands of this  thread.

Don

Don,

I see you have simply gone against Bruce Moen and moved a thread he had moved off topic, back on topic afterlife knowledge under another title  Sly!!!!!!!

Therefore, I will repeat my unanswered post again here.

This is not the forum to teach on the deep meaning of Christian doctrine and of Jesus and Paul, there are countless other sites to go to for this is a mystical, metaphysical esoteric form and as such detailed Christian Gospel teaching do not belong here. Jesus cannot be equated to some modern day guru and I am not saying you are attempting to do this.



I sent a private letter to you, which you did not even have the decency to reply. You come across more and more like some deranged Christian fundamental, as yes there are many just look at the mad evangelist shaking pontificating and shouting at the world from that appalling TV channel TBN they make me ashamed of my Christian roots.

Can you imagine for one moment Jesus acting in this idiotic way? These money-grabbing frauds, crooks shouting and postulating at the Enemy (SATAN) gets on my nerves Man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, If it were not so tragically misleading and so far to the purity of Jesus it would be very funny. To them they are reverse Robn Hoods steal from the poor and give it to the rich ,. Thieves they are

Take that charlatan Benny Hinn, how for the life of me can anyone be taken in by this idiotic fraud. He lives the life of a king unlike the humble life of Jesus that he is supposed to emulate. Hinns supposed healing and miracles have been carefully followed up and investigated by unbiased researchers and NOT ONE HEALING OR MIRACLE BY HIM COULD EVER BE VERIFIED. He makes me sick on the stomach just like his kin. Now Billy Graham is a man of integrity honor, truth whose wonderful life and actions speak for themselves.  

Now as far as Biblical understanding and knowledge I take deep umbrage that we on the forum are all ignorant in Christian matters. I have a lifetime of study in this area and can take you on any time in back and forward dialogue. .

You seem to identify with Christian fundamentals, so what on earth are you doing on this forum??. You are free to go where you will be more comfortable, but I believe your attitude will follow you there.

Those so-called miracles you said happened in your church, I think not. Do you live in Canada where I have read of these exact so-called unbelievable miracles (I do not believe this nonsense) “you phrased them exactly word for word as they appeared on the internet”. “A real coincident don’t you think?” In my long life, I have long searched and wanted to see a real miracle without avail. For instance someone growing a new eye or limb, why not if God is unlimited in his power?

You reveal nothing about yourself other than you ae 60

A little politeness goes along way and I for one would like to see you remain an active member, but instead of aggressive negativity approach each reply positively in the same loving way that Jesus would have.

alan

Alan:

The forum is called "Afterlife Knowledge," not "Knowledge according to a particular set of beliefs."  Would it be fair to say that certain kinds of beliefs aren't acceptable? Plus, if you've been here a while, you'd see that Don isn't as fundamentalist as you think.

If you don't agree with what he says, do like I do when people speak of false gurus and channeled sources.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but you have some fundamentalist ideas yourself. For example, when you've written about how really contemptible people such as Hitler end up in hell for all of eternity. Even Don will say that such spirits can return to the light, if they make the decision to make the changes they need to make in order to go to the light.

I agree it isn't correct to make statements such as people are a part of a new age ghetto, but despite how offensive this seems, it is less harmful than defending some of the false gurus and channeled sources that get defended around here. Of course two wrongs don't make a right.

Alan,

It is absolutely appropriate to have threads regarding Jesus and christianity here.  It is also appropriate to have threads regarding Judaism and Buddhism - as long as they stay on track and have relevance to the afterlife.

Bruce moved the other thread for one and only one reason; Ultra invoked the peer moderator system due to disparaging remarks Recoverer made about Sri Chinmoy.

Don is starting this thread in an excellent fashion with meticulous detail to the sensibilities of members on this board.


Matthew

My dear Alan,

Apparently, you can't see the obvious.  The principles that govern afterlife progress and retrievals are absolutely central to the purpose of this site.  As a basis for determining afterlife locale, no principle is more widely accepted than like attracts like.  What remains to be determined are (1) the limitations and precise application of this principle and (2) the possible need to supplement it with other principles of postmortem location that have been overlooked or are poorly understood.

Over the years here, countless threads have attempted to clarify PUL and the resulting dialogue has inspired posters to fine-tune their explications of this concept.    Though PUL is not essential to retrievals, it can reportedly be "projected" at trapped souls to facililate their retrievals.  Yet from a practical perspective, PUL is both ineffable and hard to analyze.  Though I have often critiqued these retrieval claims, I applaud this exploration and feel that few issues rival retrievals in importance to a worldview.  I even performed a dramatic and very emotional retrieval which, months later, I only reluctantly concluded was a mislabelled lucid dream.  But my own self-deception does not mean that no one else has done retrievals and I still cling to a thread of hope that I might one day perform a genuine and well-verified retrieval.  To that end, I periodically practice with my complete set of Gateway CDs from TMI.  This thread is devoted to both the like attracts like principle and neglected aspects of PUL.  

Alan, various posters have gently encouraged you to initiate fewer threads to allow longer incubation time for other threads. I concur but acknowledge that your best threads are quite stimulating.  I would also encourage you to read all the responses to a thread before inserting your own input.  That way, your input would be more relevant than it has been, for example, in your misreading of this thread.  Many of your replies betray an unwillingness to carefully engage what posters have actually said or have clearly taken for granted.  

Don

Don,

Thank you for  an excellent response and I take your advise without reservation, yes I have wrongly posted too many new threads and will now take a lower profile to allow others to fully participate more fully. Like the rest of us I am fallible and learning to negotiate my self through the sometimes rocky dialogue pathways taken by the excellent contributors to this wonderful forum.

Note; I did not say you were a fundamental but to me came across as one. Jesus to me was exactly who he said he was. How could someone so humble and loving, saying so many beautiful things not also be telling the truth about his origin? (rhetoric question)

It is true I have not been a member on this forum for a protracted time and perhaps my contributions have been too many and out proportion for my time period as a member, and I will adjust my faulty ways inn future.

alan

Some food for thought!  At the turn of the 20th century, there was widespread discussion about whether the standard jury system should be abolished and replaced with a jury of lawyers.  G. K. Chesterton argues effectively against this change in his essay, "Twelve Men."  The gist of his objection is expressed by a very provocative paradox: "The more a man looks at a thing, the less he can see it; and the more a man learns a thing the less he knows it."  The instincts of legal specialists get warped by overexposure to legal nuance.  Ordinary people are less jaded and more likely to discern guilt and innocence.    

An analogous point might be made about the spiritual discernment of ministers who are too close to their craft to pray effectively or hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.  The preconceived notions of astral adepts probably prevent them from acquiring breakthrough insights about the nature of the astral territories and the conditions that facilitate progression through them.  But I really wanted to include Chesterton's quote because I think it is particularly relevant to spiritual leaders who imagine they have acquired the elusive virtue of humility.  Humility and its role in mystical experience and openness to astral insights will be the subject of my next post.  

Don

HUMILITY

I once heard a guy say, "I've accomplished some great things.  But God has given me grace to be humble.  I don't think I'm half as good as I really am."  The starting point for understanding the Christian virtue of humility is this observation: The humble man does not think less of himself; rather, he thinks of himself less.  Humility is a virtue we should pray for, but never thank God for!  There is nothing as odious as conscious humility.  

Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit."  "Poor" here means a self-image that is absolutely destitute of collected virtues.  Because the humble person thinks of himself less, he lives as if he must recreate his character from scratch each day.  The enemy of spiritual growth is a lofty spiritual self-image.  Many of us act as if we carry our virtues around in a silver box in our minds and can remind ourselves of the contents of this box when we feel that our virtue is being challenged.  Many studies in the Psychology of Religion demonstrate that the least altrustic people are those with a highly spiritual self-image because their self-image blinds them to what they actually do hour by hour and day by day.  By contrast, the quest-oriented person is less secure in his spiritual self-image and is therefore less likely to hide behind it and more likely to examine how he actually behaves on a regular basis.   The demand of humility that I racreate my character from scratch each day means that I begin each day an ordinary man.  G. K. Chesterton infers from this: "All men are ordinary men; but only extraordinary men know this." And it is for this reason that St. Paul denies that he himself is spiritual "mature" and speaks sarcastically of those who do (Philippians 3:12, 15).

Rather than think less of himself, the humble person thinks of himself less.  C. S. Lewis expresses this distinction this way: "The humble architect can build the world's best cathedral.  He can know that it is the best and even take great pleasure in this fact.  But he takes no more pleasure in this fact than if someone else had built the cathedral instead!"  His pleasure is rooted in his creations and the wonderful outcomes of his actions.  He thinks of himself less and so spends no time wondering how his achievements mirror his stature.  

Although the humble man may have supreme confidence in his gifts, he naturally esteems other more than himself (Philippians 2:3).  During the few occasions in which he assesses his spiritual progress, he only does so to recreate his character for a new day.  He spends too much time seeking out new opportunities to express love to pause and wonder about what kind of man he really is.  When he thinks of others, he views them with holy perception.  Rather than judge them, he chooses to focus on the magnificent creature they might yet become by God's grace.  So his affections go out to them more than to himself.  In his heart, God receives all the credit for a humble person's accomplishments.  All his opportunities to serve are viewed as unmerited divine gifts, not as personal accomplishments.

The humble person can more easily release his inhibitions and open his mind to astral exploration.  Self-consciousness is a major barrier to OBEs and the humble person has trained himself to minimize self-consciousness by chronically thinking of himself less.  The humble are more suited to mystical experience because "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble (James 4:6)."

Don

:P
Don,

As for me, "I am so humble that I am proud of it"

alan

Hi Don,

This could have been an entire other thread - off topic! off topic! Jk
Here's my definition:




Humility is the outer expression of a conscious inner recognition of the unity or oneness with Divinity's inherent Presence embodied in the outer multiplicity of Creation, beginning with and including one's own.



- u

Ultra:

With the below kind of thinking in mind, perhaps you should post your multiple Chinmoy links to the "visitor's links forum," rather than using the main forum as a place to advertise, promote, market Chinmoy.


ultra wrote on Feb 28^th, 2008 at 9:54am:

Hi Don, This could have been an entire other thread - off topic! off topic! Jk Here's my definition: Humility is the outer expression of a conscious inner recognition of the unity or oneness with Divinity's inherent Presence embodied in the outer multiplicity of Creation, beginning with and including one's own. - u

Hi Albert,

There is nothing offensive about visitors posting links if they have something to say.  I have seen links to various sites and beliefs.  If you don't want to go there - ok, don't click on the link.  One shouldn't get too thinned skinned about this, no matter your feelings of Sri Chinmoy.  I was raised in the Jewish religion, yet I have no offense in the many citations, quotes or links given regarding christianity or the gospels.  Even when there are those who espouse the belief that only christians go to heaven.  I usually track down each link or quote when it suits my interest.

If you believe any of the schools of thought are false, don't follow them.  I see nothing wrong with stating one's opinion too, that they do or don't like this school of thought.  However, for one to post a link at the end of their posts?  Come on!

Matthew

Rremoved for violation of Posting Guidelines

   Demeaning; mocking; defamatory; libelous; or hateful
   An attack upon the beliefs of individuals or groups
   A personal attack on another member or public figure

recoverer wrote on Feb 28^th, 2008 at 4:27pm:

Ultra: With the below kind of thinking in mind, perhaps you should post your multiple Chinmoy links to the "visitor's links forum," rather than using the main forum as a place to advertise, promote, market Chinmoy. ultra wrote on Feb 28th, 2008 at 9:54am: Hi Don, This could have been an entire other thread - off topic! off topic! Jk Here's my definition: Humility is the outer expression of a conscious inner recognition of the unity or oneness with Divinity's inherent Presence embodied in the outer multiplicity of Creation, beginning with and including one's own. - u

Fyi - the definition is my own and not a quote. (you rank fool!)

ps- Albert, you are truly pathetic. I really feel sorry for you.
I hope one day you will have an authentic "MY NIGHT IN HEAVEN EXPERIENCE", instead of the drum-beating fantasy we keep hearing about, because surely, if you did have the real one, you would not be filled with so much hatred (or stupidity born of same).


- u  

Now I ask again - is this not an egregious violation of site rules sufficient for banning?
Is this an example of discussion of ideas contained in the thread or simply a  some personal obsession by an insane person?

I am tired of this childish hostile nonsense.  Lets get rid of this psycho!

Removed due to violation of Posting Guidelines.

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

Ultra said: "Ok albert, what about humility?"


Speaking about humility, I remember I used to put up posters for a guru based cult I used to belong to. One day I went into a restaurant and asked the owner if I could put up a poster, and he told me "no." He said that he knew about my guru and saw him dining in restaurants with his friends. He said this in a manner that was clearly derogatory.

I believed this man to be very unhumble and quite egotistical. Eventually, I found out that he was right, and my guru was a con artist. This man did people a great favor by not allowing me to put up a poster. I only hope that I'm not personally responsible for too many people getting involved with the false guru I used to promote when I put up posters. I feel karmically indebted to them.

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

I would urge Recoverer and Ultra to immediately delete their back and forth bickering, so that this entire thread won't be moved to off topic and erased.  Really, this is not the place for it.


Matthew

Hi recoverer and ultra try and put your resentment behind you as im trying to put my resentment behind me over that linn,so if i can do it ,you both can do it,remember the beatles song "All you need is love,love,love is all you need"so send the love and not that opposite of love "Hate".

God said"love thy neighbour" and thats what we all have to learn sometimes,so lets start putting it into practice.

Loves you recoverer and ultra     love and God bless     juditha

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup

Removed as part of Posting Guideline violation cleanup