Don-

I got to thinking about something last night and decided to ask you since you are a Biblical scholar and I greatly respect your opinion.

I was thinking that there's a big difference between Jesus and the various new age gurus.  Specifically, Jesus talks about the importance of actions, whereas the gurus seem to just talk about beliefs.

I don't ever recall reading anything in Seth or Elias et al that tells us how we should lead our lives.  Instead, they seem to concentrate on what the afterlife is or isn't, reincarnation, How our lives follow a script we "write" before birth, etc etc.

That seems to be a fundamental, and important, difference.

Thoughts?

R

Hi Roger,

I look forward to Don’s thoughts as well.

From my perspective, guru is simply a name or label that means a teacher who is deserving of reverence. Are we not all teachers?  Do we not all deserve respect if for no other reason than the fact each of us is a spark of the divine? Does a name really describe an entire person or thing? Is any one of us without fear that hides behind the separated ego?

Much has been said lately regarding certain people labeled as guru or whatever and when I see posts like this that questions someone else’s personal integrity my heart goes out to that person because they have yet to understand the true nature of who we really are and the divinity that is within all that there is.  I’m also reminded of Jesus’ words in regard to judgment of another such as the adulterous woman when he said to let the one who is without sin cast the first stone and they all walked away… no one condemned her.

Love, Kathy  :)

Lights of Love wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 12:18pm:

Hi Roger, I look forward to Don’s thoughts as well. From my perspective, guru is simply a name or label that means a teacher who is deserving of reverence. Are we not all teachers?  Do we not all deserve respect if for no other reason than the fact each of us is a spark of the divine? Does a name really describe an entire person or thing? Is any one of us without fear that hides behind the separated ego? Much has been said lately regarding certain people labeled as guru or whatever and when I see posts like this that questions someone else’s personal integrity my heart goes out to that person because they have yet to understand the true nature of who we really are and the divinity that is within all that there is.  I’m also reminded of Jesus’ words in regard to judgment of another such as the adulterous woman when he said to let the one who is without sin cast the first stone and they all walked away… no one condemned her. Love, Kathy  :)

  Kathy, perhaps there is a difference between emotionally centered "judgment" and stating a perception from a more mental level?

 You talk about Jesus for example, and his words about judgment.   Well, Jesus didn't say we cannot discriminate or even speak critically about others actions or what they teach.  His own actions and example, support the latter.

 He himself, spoke quite critically in relation to the Pharisees and Sadducee's, and said things like that they were hypocrites, a generation of vipers, and that there teachings and ways of being were akin to 'white washed tombs' and that they brought others to death and not to life.   Pretty strong words weren't they?  

 Yet, when he said these things, he was not coming from a place of emotionally centered judgment.   He did not hold negative feelings towards them, despite his outer critical words.  Even while he spoke critically, he saw and knew them to be beautiful children of God and other selves.   But that did not mean he somehow didn't see spiritual "error".

 He seemed to confront them because he believed that their teachings and ways of being were severely limiting the potential spiritual growth of themselves and the common folk, who looked up too and overly listened to these false teachers because they were a kind of "authority" then.  

Not much different than some folks today speaking out against corrupt Priests or Guru's for example.  
I can honestly say that when i speak critically about a person who sets themselves up as a teacher of spiritual truth but is one who leads others to ways of unSourceness and unPUL by their example and/or teachings, that i'm not feeling any negative feelings to them as a person, i'm not emotionally judging them.   As individuals, i could care less how they lives their lives, it's when others start getting manipulated and harmed that i speak up.    

 These folks have been shown time and time again to exert a wide and powerful influence on many, who look up to them because they project the image of being "enLightened", and simple psychology shows that if you repeat something enough, those not fully centered and individualized may eventually start to believe you.  

  For an example, if you knew someone in a family was molesting a little child, but the family itself didn't know, would it be unloving to try to make that family aware that one of its members was doing this?    

 Or would it not be more loving to speak up in hopes that it would stop it from happening?  You don't have to dislike the person who is doing this, to speak critically and in a discriminating manner about what they are doing that is harmful to others.  It is not "judgment" to dislike the behavior or the facilitation of harm to others, it is judgment to dislike the person doing the behavior or who is facilitating.

Btw, one of the things you said in the above quote, that i made bold and italicized, well it could be construed of as judgment too, couldn't it?  You basically said, when you cut out the subtle, flowery words, that people who speak out critically in regards to those who set themselves up as teachers of spiritual truth, that those who speak critically can only be coming from a judgmental space and don't have a clue about real PUL and thus aren't truly spiritual in nature.  

Not only does this contradict Jesus's own life and example--a source you even referenced (how ironic that), it is putting self and self's perceptions of others on quite a high, absolute horse.  

 When one speaks against a particular behavior or way of being, and then does it themselves, what is a person supposed to think--particularly those who the message seems to be for?    So, just because you didn't actually name names and directly say stuff to the people you were referencing too, that makes it "spiritual" and wise somehow?   To me, it's an indication of unconsciousness to self and self's own unregenerated tendencies, perhaps points to a need to look wise and spiritual to others.  

 Personally, i do not care what others think of me, especially not if i come across as "spiritual" or not, and that is why i'm so blunt and direct about how i really think and feel.   This world could really use more honest expression, more directness and honesty--it's one of the positive traits of Yang energy, as opposed to the negative trait of over polarized Yin energy which is subtly manipulative and which indirectly tries to put down others (and is good at getting away with it because of its subtly and master of innuendo).    One doesn't have to be a major ahole to try to authentically communicate what one really thinks and feels, it's like anything there is a balance.    
 
 
 

Kathy:

If a person had cancer would you say that all is love or light, or would you seek to cure that person?

If you don't believe that my analogy applies, it just shows that you don't understand how big of a problem the false guru problem is. There are thousands of cults out there where people are misled by gurus who are not what they claim to be by any stretch of the imagination, even though people stretch their imaginations in all kinds of ways when they choose to make excuses for them.

Perhaps people pick up a tip or two when they hang out with one of the many false gurus who exist, but eventually they are going to get to the point where they have to disentangle themselves from the false concepts and emotional hurts they picked up along the way. They also  often have to settle the familial and financial problems that were created along the way. Regarding the later, I know of elderly people who had nothing to retire on, because they gave away their money to guru. I know of people who couldn't help their children go to college, because they gave away their money to guru. I know of people who hurt their relationships with their families, because of their cultish relationship with guru.  I know of loving cult members who could've made a difference in society, except that they gave everything to guru. There are many people who get disenchanted with spirituality all together, because of their experiences with false gurus.

WHEN PEOPLE DEFEND FALSE GURUS SUCH AS OSHO, THEY DEFEND ALL OF THE ABOVE!

When people make comments such as: "my heart goes out to that person because they have yet to understand the true nature of who we really are and the divinity that is within all that there is" this is fine with me, because I know I'm doing the right thing.

I take part in retrievels to a significant degree. I don't care who I help. If a spirit chooses to go to the light, then I'm more than willing to help, regardless of what it has done in the past. However, I've found that living according to love, doesn't mean that one has to turn a blind eye towards the many false gurus and other cult leaders who mislead people. To do so is to engage in a game of just pretend, and to not see things as they are. When people play just pretend, they empower those who don't need to be empowered. When people play just pretend, they help false gurus disempower those who follow them.


Rondelle:

Here's a big difference between Jesus and false gurus:

Jesus set about to do what he did, even though he knew he would be crucified at a young age. False gurus do what they do, because they expect to enjoy a life of manipulating and controlling people; being put on a pedestal as some kind of God; and in many cases, engaging in sex with their followers. Regarding money, Jesus told his followers to give their money to the poor, while false gurus collect it. Jesus did what he did because of divine authority. False gurus designate themselves as Gods.

I don't believe that Jesus is the only light being. I figure there are many. I figure that just about all of us become light beings eventually.  Even people who decide to become false gurus for a while.


 



Lights of Love wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 12:18pm:

Hi Roger, I look forward to Don’s thoughts as well. From my perspective, guru is simply a name or label that means a teacher who is deserving of reverence. Are we not all teachers?  Do we not all deserve respect if for no other reason than the fact each of us is a spark of the divine? Does a name really describe an entire person or thing? Is any one of us without fear that hides behind the separated ego? Much has been said lately regarding certain people labeled as guru or whatever and when I see posts like this that questions someone else’s personal integrity my heart goes out to that person because they have yet to understand the true nature of who we really are and the divinity that is within all that there is.  I’m also reminded of Jesus’ words in regard to judgment of another such as the adulterous woman when he said to let the one who is without sin cast the first stone and they all walked away… no one condemned her. Love, Kathy  :)

Hi Justin and Albert,

I figured my post would get a rise out of you both.

I understand what the two of you are saying. Thank you both for your posts.

I don’t believe I said anything about throwing morality out the window. Indeed, as we allow the divine to flow freely through us, we become more like that which gives us life.

As I mentioned, we are all teachers and we are always teaching others what we know.  If we know love, understanding, patience, kindness and forgiveness, this then will come through us and go out to others and it will be healing to them.  As far as I know condemnation and speaking ill of another has never healed anyone, yet we teach this to others by our thoughts, words and deeds.

Have either of you ever read the Tao Te Ching? It is a classic written about 2500 years ago and with the exception of the Bible, has been translated more than any book in the world. The most recent translation that I’ve read is Dr. Wayne Dyer’s newest book “Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life” and I highly recommend reading both of these.

The Tao Te Ching is online: http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

My heart goes out to you both.

Love, Kathy

To be Frank Kathy:

You ask us to read a couple of books, and I don't know if you truly read our posts.

P.S. Justin used to include Lao Tzu as a part of his name. Any connection to the Tao Te Ching author?

Ah, irony - the WD-40 of the mind!   ;)

Hi Rondele,
members,
:)

Regarding your question on Masters and Gurus, here are some links from a contemporary source that speaks to the issue at hand.
I got them by site-searching here http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/  for the term, 'guru' and recieved over 700 returns from which I selected some examples that might be helpful regarding your query. They are in no particular order. A search under the term 'master' on the same site might return other potentially useful passages. Another item at this site that might be helpful in this regard is the entire text of a book appropriately titled "The Master and the Disciple"  http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0690/   which explains a lot about this relationship which is often misunderstood. Also specific to your query, I hope that people who are followers of the Christ keep in mind that He is also a Guru, a Master, and much of the material below may provide insight into possibly enhancing their own relationship with Him as such. Also as Kathy points out, that Jesus Christ may not be one's Master in a particular life, but God does seem to provide the necessary experiences for the sincere seeker, even the insincere seeker, including connecting them with a sincere or perhaps even an insincere guru as their needs may require!.

Regarding action vs belief, 2 contemporary Gurus I have studied - Aurobindo and especially Chinmoy, advocate an integral approach (in fact Sri Aurobindo originated this) that involves not only meditation, but dedicated physical and creative activity such as arts, athletics as well as community service as part of a viable spiritual practice. I'll bet Vajra can add some contemporary Buddhist proponents of this integral approach as well. Zen is quite well known for its down to Earth pragmatism.

Also, due to the contentious atmosphere that pervades the boards here from time to time, I wish to make a disclaimer regarding my own position on the Christ just for the record, even though I realize that my evaluation can be of little or no consequence to others:
That He is undoubtedly a Master of the highest order, an Avatar, a direct Representative of the Absolute, A Saviour of humanity, One who's Consciousness is quite unimaginable to me. I reserve my highest regard for such a Master.

As always, hope this is helpful.


- u   :)

Ps - to Don - please forgive this impertinence as the question was asked directly to you, however it was in the public forum so I took the liberty...


http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0067/2/13

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0137/6/30/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0067/2/14/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0067/2/14/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0336/2/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0585/64/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0336/1/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0016/1/14/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0304/5/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0106/1/2/?searchterm=guru
I just read all of the poems in this book - !!!!!

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0075/3/1/

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0274/1/12/?searchterm=guru

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0117/1/135/?searchterm=guru

Here's another thought.

"If you really love somebody, you won't be afraid to see their momentary imperfections, because you'll realize that seeing them won't stop you from loving them." I know that my spirit guidance sees my imperfections not because they want to judge me, but because they love me and want to see me clearly enough so they can help me.

Ultra just posted a bunch of threads about Sri Chinmoy. It is clear that Sri Chinmoy was a false guru who misled many people. He was a guru who would sexually push himself on his disciples in a forcefull way. He tried to control them by telling them things such as "if you leave me, dark spirits will get to you" (not his exact words). Nevertheless, I believe he is a divine child of God, and I wish him the best with moving to the light. He died not too long ago. My guess is that as he goes through his life review (perhaps he already went through it), he'll hope that there are people down here who help others see that he was a deceptive guru, because he'll no longer want others to be misled by his imperfect teachings.

Hopefully he has moved on to the light, because the main method of meditation with his group is to stare at his photo. If he now exists as a non-love oriented earth bound spirit, somebody might attract his spirit to his or herself, through such a method of meditation.

I won't bother with posting articles that explain about Chimoy's exploits, because doing so didn't accomplish much with other false gurus. If there are people who could see what I revealed about other false gurus, they'll probably know that I wouldn't say things about Chinmoy without knowing better.

If some people believe it is negative for me to say something about Chinmoy, is it okay for Ultra to turn people on to such a false source of information without anybody saying differently?

What if somebody came on this forum and spoke up for the teachings of Bin Laden? Would people consider it negative to speak against Bin Laden?

recoverer wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 4:17pm:

Here's another thought. "If you really love somebody, you won't be afraid to see their momentary imperfections, because you'll realize that seeing them won't stop you from loving them." I know that my spirit guidance sees my imperfections not because they want to judge me, but because they love me and want to see me clearly enough so they can help me. Ultra just posted a bunch of threads about Sri Chinmoy. It is clear that Sri Chinmoy was a false guru who misled many people. He was a guru who would sexually push himself on his disciples in a forcefull way. He tried to control them by telling them things such as "if you leave me, dark spirits will get to you" (not his exact words). Nevertheless, I believe he is a divine child of God, and I wish him the best with moving to the light. He died not too long ago. My guess is that as he goes through his life review (perhaps he already went through it), he'll hope that there are people down here who help others see that he was a deceptive guru, because he'll no longer want others to be misled by his imperfect teachings. Hopefully he has moved on to the light, because the main method of meditation with his group is to stare at his photo. If he now exists as a non-love oriented earth bound spirit, somebody might attract his spirit to his or herself, through such a method of meditation.

Is it just me or does this qualify as an egregious violation of site rules?
Instead of going PM, I am openly asking people who find this antisocial behavior offensive and quite literally a destructive force on Bruce's site to ask for the permanent removal of 'recoverer' as per site guidelines. I am quite tired and disgusted with his negative bullying tactics. This site will never ever fulfill its original intention if people who are committed to negativity, bashing and trashing all but their own preferences, are allowed to defile the atmosphere and prevent real seekers from participating in an open and constructive way without fear of being bullied and disparaged.


Please participate in this request if you want to preserve a useful and inspiring community instead of a playground for incessant negativity.

thank you for your support.

- u  

All I can say is if people ever see me promoting a false guru or false teachings, please feel completely free to correct me. The last thing I want to do is misdirect other people to false gurus. Actually, I used to do so, because I used to put up posters in public places for the cult I used to be a member of. I hope I am not personally responsible for getting too many people involved with that cult. If I am, I feel karmically indepted to those people.

If you find something false about a guru or source I advocate, I will be more than happy to examine what you found. Thank you in advance for doing so.

Albert, do you not see that you are doing to others exactly what was done to you by restricting their freedom to choose?

I agree with Ultra. You are in violation of this boards posting guidelines and have been for quite some time.

I'm not saying you cannot speak out regarding your own experiences with false teachers, however your tone and the way you do so clearly is a violation in my opinion.

Would it not be more helpful to first listen to what another is trying to say before lashing out at the person? Isn't this what you want people to do with your posts? People want to be heard and understood. It is common courtesy to give them the respect they deserve.

Love, Kathy

LIghten up, Ultra,

No person on this board should be bashed.  As to knocking down the revered figures of other peoples' belief systems - let us not forget, Recoverer that in any system (including Judaism and Christianity), there is much that must be taken on faith, without any proof currently available.  I find it interestng that people of certain belief systems need to unmask the false idols and gurus.  

I see nothing wrong with calling a medium or a guru a phony, if the shoe fits.  I'm not sure what purpose it will serve, and thus I direct my attentions to other matters.

We are all big kids here - I'm not a big fan of the bans, but I understand that some rules need to be in place to be cordial.

Incidentally, this thread was titled "Question for Don."   Hrrrumpph!  Don has yet to have time to respond, and already the fireworks are flying.

I for one do not wish to see Albert banned, even temporarily.  If you are a follower of Osho or Sri Chinmoy, I am sorry if the conversation was offensive to you.

Matthew

recoverer wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 4:38pm:

All I can say is if people ever see me promoting a false guru or false teachings, please feel completely free to correct me. The last thing I want to do is misdirect other people to false gurus. Actually, I used to do so, because I used to put up posters in public places for the cult I used to be a member of. I hope I am not personally responsible for getting too many people involved with that cult. If I am, I feel karmically indepted to those people. If you point out something false about a guru or source I advocate, I will be more than happy to examine what you found. Thank you in advance for doing so.

Thank you. Ok, I will do what you ask, even though you still deserve to be removed for site guideline violations which do not include: members must constantly disparage other teachers and traditions.

If you cannot see the obvious I will have to point it out:

By disparaging all but your own preferences, based on your own self-proclaimed 'exalted' experiences thus generously self-qualifying yourself as an 'authority' on others' integrity, morality, spiritual 'status' -- these are all ego and personality comparisons -- YOU ARE POSITIONING YOURSELF ON A PEDESTAL AS A GURU.  You are your own false guru.

Kathy:

Perhaps the guidelines should be revised, if people can't even speak the truth.

How can a person choose, if alternative perspectives can't even be presented?





Lights of Love wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 4:43pm:

Albert, do you not see that you are doing to others exactly what was done to you by restricting their freedom to choose? I agree with Ultra. You are in violation of this boards posting guidelines and have been for quite some time.

Ultra:

I never claimed to be a perfect master and have not asked anybody to become my disciple.

One does not have to be a perfect master, in order to get to the point where they can discriminate false gurus and have an understanding of the various ways they have a negative effect.

A day will come where you'll find out what Chinmoy was really about, and you'll think differently.




ultra wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 4:48pm:

recoverer wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 4:38pm: All I can say is if people ever see me promoting a false guru or false teachings, please feel completely free to correct me. The last thing I want to do is misdirect other people to false gurus. Actually, I used to do so, because I used to put up posters in public places for the cult I used to be a member of. I hope I am not personally responsible for getting too many people involved with that cult. If I am, I feel karmically indepted to those people. If you point out something false about a guru or source I advocate, I will be more than happy to examine what you found. Thank you in advance for doing so. Thank you. Ok, I will do what you ask, even though you still deserve to be removed for site guideline violations which do not include: members must constantly disparage other teachers and traditions. If you cannot see the obvious I will have to point it out: By disparaging all but your own preferences, based on your own self-proclaimed 'exalted' experiences thus generously self-qualifying yourself as an 'authority' on others' integrity, morality, spiritual 'status' -- these are all ego and personality comparisons -- YOU ARE POSITIONING YOURSELF ON A PEDESTAL AS A GURU.  You are your own false guru.

Hi Matthew,

I think your telling me to 'lighten-up' is a little condescending and inappropriate in view of the campaign of bullying and negativity by a few members, who btw everyone knows quite well here, and it didnt take long for them to reveal themselves to me when I first came.

By the same token, I could tell you to 'waken-up'.

This has nothing to do with ideology, but with a clear, persistent and egregious violation of site rules, which effect the quality of community participation. It is a deliberate form of attempted domination by intimidation that are against site guidelines for that very reason. If that is the kind of community you like then that is your choice. Why even make a comment to me then? Just let things go as they are and why be bothered?

- u

 Hi Kathy, nah you didn't get a 'rise out of me'.   Lately, its hard for most to get a rise out of me in that sense.  

 My wife is pretty good at it sometimes, but such is married life at times.  ;) ;D


 I just disagreed with what you were saying, and i felt pretty detached about the whole thing.  

Lights of Love wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 4:43pm:

Albert, do you not see that you are doing to others exactly what was done to you by restricting their freedom to choose? I agree with Ultra. You are in violation of this boards posting guidelines and have been for quite some time. I'm not saying you cannot speak out regarding your own experiences with false teachers, however your tone and the way you do so clearly is a violation in my opinion. Would it not be more helpful to first listen to what another is trying to say before lashing out at the person? Isn't this what you want people to do with your posts? People want to be heard and understood. It is common courtesy to give them the respect they deserve. Love, Kathy

I am in agreement with Kathy and Ultra that R is frequently in violation of the posting guidelines. He does this in the name of love. yet true PUL will seek the light in a person to draw it forth..PUl does not seek the darkness; it banishes the darkness.

the funny thing about life is, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. I have found that my most difficult relationships of the people I disagreed with, whether they were false gurus or just relationships, I learned from each encounter that I was in the right place at the right time, and that there were no mistakes.

so in that sense, anyone who suffers from false gurus can also turn that around to, so it hurt, what did I learn to avoid burning myself the next time?

in that way we evolve. u take it on the chin. what else can u do? spend the rest of your life screaming to others that somebody did something horrible to you?

what a waste of precious time. learn to forgive the false guru, learn to forgive those that hurt you, we are talking about PUL, and learning to get along with all of our diverse politics and religions. Also, speak out, but allow equal time for the opposite viewpoint, then give it to the still quiet voice of god to handle.

beating a dead horse...indeed. Let it be, let it be, we are safe, we never left the heart of god. all will be known, and no use letting anything get you down!

I think it boils down to we create our own reality, and draw to us either truth or lies, whatever happens to us, u can bet it was not a random event..we can choose a different way. we can choose to "know."

Alysia:

I said it before, I'll say it again, I don't write against false gurus because I am bruised and feel compelled to lash out in some way. I do so because I care, and for no other reason. I certainly don't do so in order to win a forum popularity contest.

If this was politics, I'd be the canditate who speaks the truth but never gets elected. Instead we get the George Bush's of the World with their anti-gay marriage slogans and swift boat nonsense, instead of somebody who will speak of the issues in a truthful manner.

You would think people would be more interested in finding out the truth of their false gurus, rather than causing others to be misled in the same way.

It is interesting that people who have found out about false gurus are willing to speak against them, while those who haven't defend them and "JUDGE" the people who try to speak truthfully about such gurus.  Who are you going to believe? Those who took the time to find out about the false gurus, or those who are too busy trying to defend them for whatever reason, to find out what they are truly about?

ultra wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 4:29pm:

recoverer wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 4:17pm: Here's another thought. "If you really love somebody, you won't be afraid to see their momentary imperfections, because you'll realize that seeing them won't stop you from loving them." I know that my spirit guidance sees my imperfections not because they want to judge me, but because they love me and want to see me clearly enough so they can help me. Ultra just posted a bunch of threads about Sri Chinmoy. It is clear that Sri Chinmoy was a false guru who misled many people. He was a guru who would sexually push himself on his disciples in a forcefull way. He tried to control them by telling them things such as "if you leave me, dark spirits will get to you" (not his exact words). Nevertheless, I believe he is a divine child of God, and I wish him the best with moving to the light. He died not too long ago. My guess is that as he goes through his life review (perhaps he already went through it), he'll hope that there are people down here who help others see that he was a deceptive guru, because he'll no longer want others to be misled by his imperfect teachings. Hopefully he has moved on to the light, because the main method of meditation with his group is to stare at his photo. If he now exists as a non-love oriented earth bound spirit, somebody might attract his spirit to his or herself, through such a method of meditation. Is it just me or does this qualify as an egregious violation of site rules? Instead of going PM, I am openly asking people who find this antisocial behavior offensive and quite literally a destructive force on Bruce's site to ask for the permanent removal of 'recoverer' as per site guidelines. I am quite tired and disgusted with his negative bullying tactics. This site will never ever fulfill its original intention if people who are committed to negativity, bashing and trashing all but their own preferences, are allowed to defile the atmosphere and prevent real seekers from participating in an open and constructive way without fear of being bullied and disparaged. Please participate in this request if you want to preserve a useful and inspiring community instead of a playground for incessant negativity. thank you for your support. - u

 Recoverer does not bash and put down all other beliefs and teachers besides the ones he mostly agrees with.  

 There are a few key ones, that others here have promoted that he sometimes speaks strongly against.  

 If he actually bashed the people who believe in or promote those teachings and teachers, i could see good reason to try to ban him.   But he doesn't, he keeps it to the concepts, issues, and points at hand, and talks to others here mostly impersonally, logically, reasonably and without labeling folks here in an extremely negative or black and white manner.  

 As someone who has only posted here 33 times, whose last p.m. was back in Nov, and hasn't been on here near as long as Recoverer has, i find it quite interesting that you are trying to get him banned permanently from this site.  

 I'm kind of confused as to your possible intentions here beyond the ones you mention on the surface.   Perhaps what Recoverer says about false Guru types hits too close to home, or something like that?  You wouldn't happen to run an ashram or anything like that would you or be a guru in the making?

 Plenty of people have come here and bashed Christianity or Judaism, put down the accomplishments of Christ, etc. but neither Recoverer nor i ever once said to others that they need to ban these folks.   I just kind of ignore their ranting, or i point holes in their logic.  

 I don't believe in censorship, unless its absolutely necessary and the situation is so extreme as to not be helped any other way.  


  There are people who have a somewhat gruff manner, but whose hearts are good and kind.    Conversely, there are those who speak with a silver, soothing, diplomatic tongue, whose hearts are filled with negative intentions.  

 You can't always accurately judge a situation or a person by the surface, and by the manner of the person.   People who have been here for a long time, know that deep down Recoverer is a good hearted person, albeit sometimes a little stubborn, zealous, and very direct.   To have him banned would be pretty messed up and a very dangerous step in the wrong direction.    



 

Justin:

Perhaps people should consider what they want this forum to be about. A place to find out about afterlife knowledge, or a place to promote false gurus. What does taking on false belief systems have to do with afterlife knowledge?

Just about everytime Ultra comes here he either promotes or defends a false guru.

If people noticed, I never speak out against their experiences nor against Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe.

When I speak, I try to speak according to my experience, rather than saying what a guru says, with the hope that what he or she says is actually the truth. Occasionally I'll refer to what Monroe and Moen say. This is Bruce's forum. Plus, I like the fact that neither Robert or Bruce have presented themselves as infallible gurus. Both of them have said to find out for yourself. What does memorizing the words of a guru have to do with finding out for yourself?

To conclude, it isn't my fault that there is all sorts of false information out there.

Hi Alysia,

With all due respect, I think that for the health of the site, the issue of recoverer's motivations and psychological underpinnings for his troublemaking are not as important as simply removing him. He no doubt has been warned an persists in being childishly defiant.

If PUL is an issue here then, sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice 1 or 2 for the sake of the many, and possibly Bruce's reputation.

What good is a man's life work, if on his own site, with guidelines in place - nothing is done to protect the integrity of an assurance that other beings who come to the site will not openly be disparaged based on the ego aggression of a few angry and antisocial bullies? People may want to know, why will Bruce not honor his own committment to respect members, many of whom are proponents of his own work? One could easily draw the conclusion, even upon a brief vist here that Bruce, while not necessarily attracting the negativity, is responsible for its preservation, since he apparently does little to mitigate it. Rhetorical: Is he therefore condoning the antisocial behavior and bashing of other teachers and traditions? Is this due to his own disrespect for other teachers and traditions? Its Bruce's site - so if that is what he does stand for then why not just remove the site guidelines and the pretense of civility. Then there is no conflict between the expectations of members for a civilized community, and the opportunity of a few ego negatives to destroy the site and its purpose. I would have no problem with that. i think it would make life simpler for many who come here.

To me, the whole idea of a forum is to be able to share resources, not to assume a mandate to denigrate other's ideals based on our own preferences. If recoverer cannot distinguish the difference between discussing ideas and assuming the self-righteous mantle of being every single person's spiritual judge and jury, why should he be accorded the right of participation?

Another thing - these negative's entire purpose is to create and draw people into negative vortex's such as this discussion now has become. That is their purpose - not ideas, not sharing, not supporting, not inclusion, and certainly not PUL.  If you look at the history of such posters you will see the consistency of this claim. It is clearly in the record. You can see exactly where each thread goes off into the same negative territory sparked by the same ones over and over again using the same tactics. They also oft insist on having the last word. People on this site have witnessed this many times. People who are sensitive (in the positive sense) find it painful and frustrating. It is why people do not stay or participate at all.

Again, the record speaks for itself. People are well aware of this issue. Please make a stand to protect the integrity of this site. Lets not continue on about someone's internal motivations. They have to work that out for themselves anyway. This is a time for people to speak up if they are tired of the same old nonsense. It is everyone' choice and Bruce's too. But people have to make their feelings known to him.

I've made my case to the site admins. and will see what happens.

- u

recoverer wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 5:53pm:

Perhaps people should consider what they want this forum to be about. A place to find out about afterlife knowledge, or a place to promote false gurus. What does taking on false belief systems have to do with afterlife knowledge?

As far as I can tell no one can scientifically prove or disprove any afterlife theory is incorrect. If someone wishes to post they're take on the whole thing who are we to say they are wrong? On this form there is no such thing as "false belief systems" as far as I am concerned. Everyone is entitled to believe what they choose.

You're right Terethian:

It would be wrong to suggest that people can't post about false gurus. However, if people know differently, certainly it isn't wrong for them to say so, even if unfortunately they have to ruffle some feathers. Perhaps some people have their feathers ruffled when they think of yet another person becoming involved with a false guru.

Regarding things simply being a matter of opinion, are you able to acknowledge at all that there is a such thing as destructive cults?




wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 6:08pm:

recoverer wrote on Feb 13th, 2008 at 5:53pm: Perhaps people should consider what they want this forum to be about. A place to find out about afterlife knowledge, or a place to promote false gurus. What does taking on false belief systems have to do with afterlife knowledge? As far as I can tell no one can scientifically prove or disprove any afterlife theory is incorrect. If someone wishes to post they're take on the whole thing who are we to say they are wrong? On this form there is no such thing as "false belief systems" as far as I am concerned. Everyone is entitled to believe what they choose.

The bottom line is they have the right of free speech to post information. The only major issue I see is if the person is completely fake and actually out to get money from people.

If you can prove that then of course they are in the wrong. But you have to be able to prove it...
There is a lot of money in the afterlife business after all as I mentioned before...  :o
But anyways I would demand proof and irrefutable proof is hard to come by.

Terethian:

Lots of intelligent people get taken in by cults. That tells you how hard it can be to discriminate things of a sprititual nature. Especially since people who get involved with cults, because of the goodness of their hearts, tend to be overly trusting. It is hard for one to imagine that somebody else is manifesting negative ways of being, when such negative ways of being don't exist within one's self.  This is how it used to be for me, until I found out about guru after guru who wasn't what he or she claimed to be.

When I speak against a guru, it isn't simply a matter of the immoral acts he or she has taken part in. After a while,  one learns to see how parts of their teachings are incorrect. One realizes that if a guru really understood what he or she is talking about, he or she wouldn't say some of the things he or she says.

To say that one can't discriminate whether a guru is false or true, is highly self defeatist and cynical.  I will no longer allow myself to be misled by such a negative way of thinking.




wrote on Feb 13^th, 2008 at 6:21pm:

The bottom line is they have the right of free speech to post information. The only major issue I see is if the person is completely fake and actually out to get money from people. If you can prove that then of course they are in the wrong. But you have to be able to prove it... There is a lot of money in the afterlife business after all as I mentioned before...  :o But anyways I would demand proof and irrefutable proof is hard to come by.

 Hi Recover et al,

 I don't know if i should post this or not, as i don't have any proof whatsoever, but i do want to mention because it seems pertinent to all this, which is not completely as it appears on the surface (i feel that deep down).

 You mention the observation that the poster "ultra" seems to mostly only come on here to promote or defend certain Guru's.   Well, not to mention a couple of really cynical and belittling remarks as well once in awhile.   Like when he told you it was about time you stop recovering and start living life, even though you hadn't said anything to him and he didn't otherwise engage that thread and subject at all.    

 I have asked the poster ultra if they have ever been on the Bob Marks Astrology forum site, asked this twice on the public board and never got a reply.

   I knew a person there on the astro site who promoted the same exact Gurus and teachings, who wrote in a very similar style, very similar tone, similar vocab, and who seemed to have major issues with me as both a poster and person.   I'm a pretty observant person and good with seeing details, but also the larger picture at the same time.

 Not only that, but what's going on with you and him trying to get you banned, is very similar to what happened with this other person who tried to get me banned from that site.   They actively told others and the admin. that i should be banned, in fact this was a repeated mantra till it happened.  

  When i first joined, this person would needle me about my beliefs, ways of expressing, and ways of being.   It got more and more overtly critical, personal, and belittling.    At first i tried to keep the interaction impersonal and about the beliefs and concepts at hand, but after awhile i let myself get sucked to his level of personal insults, put downs, etc.

At one point, i stopped responding to this person via the public board.   After awhile, i got an unwanted p.m. from this person.  I say unwanted, because i never had p.m.'ed them before and since we disagreed on quite a few issues, why would i want to personally communicate with them, why would they even think i would want or like a p.m. from them?  

 At first, i decided to just say thanks for all the Guru type advice they gave me, was quite a long p.m. filled with all kinds of personal advice in regards to me and my life, you know what i should do and what i shouldn't do.  My reply was very brief, cordial, but impersonal and at first i had thought about not responding at all.    This person wrote back, saying basically, oh that's it, you have nothing else to say, etc.

 It was like they were looking for a reaction, looking to needle me further, to engage me.    After this incident, and during a period in my life where i was experiencing a lot of personal challenge on many levels all at once, i started to let myself get re-pulled into this game on the public board again, after this p.m. thing.  

This person however was smarter and more manipulative than i was, and after us both getting heat from the admin. on that site for arguing in public, this person started attacking in more psychological, subtle, and manipulative ways, looking to press my buttons without actually saying anything directly to me so they wouldn't get in trouble at all, just plenty of super negative innuendos towards and about me.  

 Because of my general uncenteredness of the time, it worked rather well, and i let myself get upset at them a few times.    For example, i had met up with a person from that site, a friend, a few times in a C1 kind of way.    He ended up talking to her via p.m. and tried to convince her that i was a NPD, to stay away from me, and around the same time started a thread about NPD's.    

She later told me this, though he apparently thought she would or wanted her to keep this secret.   I confronted him and he even denied he did it to begin with.    


 Anyways, there were a few people there who really disliked me anyways, and with all this drama, which was definitely partly my responsibility, i did end up being kicked out even though many posters, some definitely not my friends in a personal sense, thought it was really messed up and strongly disagreed with it.

 Now, what i find interesting is all the similarities that the poster ultra shares with this other poster from this other site, very specific and peculiar similarities.   Now, ultra signed up here around the time that i had just promoted Bruce's site over there on the astrology site--shared a link and spoke very positively about this site and Bruce Moen's work and info.  

 Funny enough, while i never ended posting at the astrology site again, i would check it once in awhile as a reader only.    While the person i had had issues with, hadn't been officially kicked off to my knowledge, they completely disappeared from that site.   I never saw them post from that time on.

  Not long after me being banned, and that poster being kicked off from that site, "ultra" shows up here, though he had originally registered awhile before around the time that i mentioned this forum over there.  

 I've asked twice already, if they were on the Bob Marks astrology site, and no answer.  I'll ask again, did ultra use to post on that site?    If so, there is a lot more going on here than meets the eye.   Consider that before agreeing to have Albert banned.  

Maybe he should focus less on speaking out against sources he believe harmful to others in various ways, but that does not mean he is not a good person or doesn't have basically good intentions.   It does not make him an anti social messed up person who is only looking to cause harm and trouble here.  He is mild and tame compared to some past posters we have had here you would constantly attack and belittle people in a much more personal sense.  

 I find it immensely amusing that ultra accuses him of being anti social and implies much more negative issues with him, when ultra in the whole time he has been here has only posted some 35 times or so, and when i checked earlier, their last p.m. was from Nov.  

 As Albert says, rarely does this person talk about the Afterlife, their experiences, and engage in that sense, but mostly comes on here to promote Shri Auborinado, Sri Chimnoy, and defended Osho, or to say critical and belittling words to Albert and i on a occasion.  

 This is not even close to being "social", though they may start or end some of their posts with, "forgive me for" or "thank you" in such a political, p.c., and diplomatic way.  Ultra certainly does have a silver tongue, for sure.  

 Until this person directly answers my question, i will assume that they are indeed this other poster i knew from that site, and obviously has some major OCD, obsessive issues.   Btw, the poster from the astrology site, was one of the only members who would not openly share his full birth data on a site full of astrologers.   Almost everyone else, shared their birth data there. We're talking hundreds of people.    

 In any case, if Albert is banned, i will gladly leave as well, and i'm sure that will make ultra  and a couple others here quite happy.     Pesonally, i do not want to be at a place where one cannot speak critically about teachers known to have harmed others repeatedly in various, often time extreme ways.    

Osho and Sri Chimnoy very much included.    Talk about "disgusting", to me it is disgusting when others try to silence the voices of others who care enough about people to speak up about such things, even though they know ahead of time that others may look at and judge them negatively for not being New Age "loving".   Or it is not "loving" to speak critically about the Seth material which denigrates Christ's life and example, and says that he had another fool drugged to take his place.  

 One can speak critically about a source, without speaking negatively about and towards the person who is promoting it.   Albert consistently refrains from the latter, and that is very important in my book and something some here seem to be over looking conveniently.   Personally, i believe that every person who sets themselves up as a "teacher" of spiritual truth, and who has been known to harm others, should be exposed and talked about in open.    I'm sick of the typical American attitude of let's sweep anything uncomfortable and "negative" under the rug, so we don't have to face our collective and individual shadow sides.   Exactly where has this gotten us so far?   Got to admit though, we're pretty darn good and practiced at it.

 Specifically for us Americans here, we have folks like Bush and his cronies in power, because not enough people used their God given discrimination and became too apathetic to question "authority" in the first place.  Because not enough realize what a corrupt system we have to begin with.   Same problem with the countless misleading and harmful Guru and teacher types who have arisen.    It's an issue of power, and some unscrupulous people looking for power over others and becoming very good in the art of psychological manipulation.  Sure, even thes e can "teach us" but by and through suffering and teaching us what we don't want or need.   Such suffering, should not be consciously sought or sanctioned, even though it has its place for now.    

Roger asks me a question and, before I even get to answer, a battle royal brings out the New Age Thought Police to banish his thread and stifle poor Albert just for sharing his experiences and honest perspectives on certain Gurus.  LOL.  Meanwhile posters again get to savage Christian beliefs to the untutored applause of the New Age herd.  Soooo typical!  Well, Roger, I will find some pretext for responding to your question on a new thread that might, at least temporarily, survive on the AK board long enough for you to read it.  

But right now, I'm basking in the afterglow of a mind-blowing 4-day spiritual retreat in which a large group of male cynics were infused with a weeping ecstasy and bonding generated by a 24-hour prayer marathon and countless acts of selfless service offered by nameless Christians who worked creatively behind the scenes to produce a spiritually transforming atmosphere for the retreaters.  As a result, these cynics are now themselves obsessed with a longing to work behind the scenes in future retreats to generate comparable PUL in the next large batch of retreaters.  It is clear from the 50 alumni from my church who have done this retreat over the years that the impact is permanent and profound.

And Albert, who are you to judge the Nazis who exterminated 6 million Jews?  Don't you realize that those Jews agreed before their birth to experience this abuse to discharge their karmic debt?  The Nazis were actually doing them a favor.  Dood is right: Hitler was just a puppet whose strings were pulled by unnamed German financiers who happily escaped allied justice.  After all, these financiers were merely playing their assigned role in this karmic drama.  The Jews chose their fate before birth and, in that sense, had it coming.  So you must not judge promiscuous and greedy Gurus; they are merely playing a preordained educational role to which you are not privy.  Judge not, lest you be judged!

Don

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 14^th, 2008 at 1:07am:

Roger asks me a question and, before I even get to answer, a battle royal brings out the New Age Thought Police to banish his thread ..... Don

Hi Don,
           As you know, Bruce Moen moved this thread to the "Off Topic Posts" forum because...

....it is OFF TOPIC towards the intentions of this site.

My question to YOU is:

Why are you calling Bruce Moen  "the New Age Thought Police"

when all he is doing is MOVING an off-topic thread, not CENSORING IT!!!

Your "victim" stance, your "wounded affront"....

What is that pose really about?

( *sigh* )

Check it out!

Bruce isn't stopping you from freely expressing yourself!

All he did was MOVE the thread to where something so off-topic belongs...

You're still free to rant!

How have you or anybody been victimized by his action?

Tim

Tim,

The "tattler" who insisted that Albert be muzzled is also part of the Thought Police.  Yes, I have been victimized by the double standard of (1) recent smirky uncensured vicious attacks against Christianity by the biblical illiterates here and (2) the many "Offtopic" New Age threads that parrot the party line, so are left incongruously in place.  Also, the thread was addressed to me and I was given no chance to respond in a way that truly does satisfy the purpose of this site.  I would have answered Roger's question from the perspective of the need to nuance the afterlife principle that like attracts like.  But when I do create a thread in response to Roger, I will be excruciatingly polite regardless of the relentless jibes from the cackling herd.

Don

Don to extend my thougths on this subject I`d like to bring back these words into this:


Quote:

Rondelle: Here's a big difference between Jesus and false gurus: Jesus set about to do what he did, even though he knew he would be crucified at a young age. False gurus do what they do, because they expect to enjoy a life of manipulating and controlling people; being put on a pedestal as some kind of God; and in many cases, engaging in sex with their followers. Regarding money, Jesus told his followers to give their money to the poor, while false gurus collect it. Jesus did what he did because of divine authority. False gurus designate themselves as Gods. I don't believe that Jesus is the only light being. I figure there are many. I figure that just about all of us become light beings eventually.  Even people who decide to become false gurus for a while.

What I do not understand is this:
Why do sooooooooooooo many people NOT believe in Christ and God for that matter?
Hugs,
Nanner

Don,

I sent a private letter to you, which you did not even have the decency to reply. You come across more and more like some deranged Christian fundamental, as yes there are many just look at the mad evangelist shaking pontificating and shouting at the world from that appalling TV channel TBN they make me ashamed of my Christian roots. Can you imagine for one moment Jesus acting in this idiotic way? These money-grabbing frauds, crooks shouting and postulating at the Enemy (SATAN) gets on my nerves Man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, If it were not so tragiclly misleading and so far to the purity of Jesus it would be very funny.

Take that charlatan Benny Hinn, how for the life of me can anyone be taken in by this idiotic fraud. He lives the life of a king unlike the humble life of Jesus that he is supposed to emulate. Hinns supposed healing and miracles have been carefully followed up and investigated by unbiased researchers and NOT ONE HEALING OR MIRACLE BY HIM COULD EVER BE VERIFIED. He makes me sick on the stomach just like his kin. Now Billy Graham is a man of integrity honor , truth whose wonderful life and actions speak for themselves.

Now as far as Biblical understanding and knowledge I take deep umbrage that we on the forum are all ignorant in Christian matters. I have a lifetime of study in this area and can take you on any time in back and forward dialogue. .

You seem to identify with Christian fundamentals, so what on earth are you doing on this forum??. You are free to go where you will be more comfortable, but I believe your attitude will follow you there.

Those so-called miracles you said happened in your church, I think not. Do you live in Canada where I have read of these exact so-called unbelievable miracles (I do not believe this nonsense) you phrased them exactly word for word as they appeared on the internet. A real coincident don’t you think? In my long life, I have long searched and wanted to see a real miracle without avail. For instance someone growing a new eye or limb, why not if God is unlimited in his power?

I find nothing wrong with Recover and he just like the rest of us  is free to believe what he likes Is it he that should be expelled from the forum or someone else, indeed nearer than a brother to you. You reveal nothing about yourself other than you are 60

A little politeness goes along way and I for one would like to see you remain an active member, but instead of negativity positively

alan

Exchanging information and holding various theories and experiences up to the light of day becomes less meaningful if the discussion is censored.  Ultra claims that I am in favor of allowing a few to "bully" people and disparage their views.  Rubbish.  I have always chimed in when inappropriate comments fly, both by PM and out in the open on the board.  

Yet we can't walk on eggshells and not engage each other on all topics.  It must be ok, for one to say that my faith of birth (Judaism) seems crazy to them for the following reasons........or for one to say that they personally have issues with Christianity.  While I or anyone else may refute or defend our beliefs, it can be done in a reasonable inoffensive manner.

Don notes a few anti-Christian postings on this site; people who are fed up with religion, many of whom are not knowledgeable about biblical texts and factual information.  Rather than see these comments as a personal affront or attack, it has been more interesting and informative to see Don take the Christian bashers to task, and explode the myths and misunderstandings.

So why take offense on an open message board like this?   If you believe in Sri Chinmoy or any of the disparaged gurus, what does it matter, truly if Recoverer throws out his warning?  One can either engage each other then, and let the truth come out (which it usually does), or ignore the insensitive remark and let it slide to page 2 in a day or so.

Officially, yes many postings may violate site guidelines.  Wah wah.  If we do censor all of them, there will be nothing left of debate,and many will not feel free to share for free of being stricken down.


Matthew

Hi Don,

I don't know why or need to know why but I have such an immense affection for you.

I disagree with many things you say;  that doesn't diminish the warmth I feel for you.

Love, Tim

Yes, the "evil genius" is back. Here's a big giant kiss for you, Don!

We're all one big dysfunctional family here, and proud of it!

love, blink :)

Alan:

You haven't been here long, but in the past there have been numerous threads where people would bash Christianity. Some of the people who get on my case for speaking against false gurus, would become supportive of the people who speak out against Christianity. Why the double standard? If it is so wrong to speak critically of something, then why did the people who make such claims, jump on the Christian bashing bandwagon?

Regarding Don's comments about Biblical knowledge, the people who made the disparaging comments they made, clearly had incomplete Biblical knowledge. You weren't around then, so I don't see how Don's comments could've been directed towards you.


Tim:

I believe it is quite clear that Don wasn't addressing Bruce Moen when he was speaking of thought police. The thought police came out way before Bruce moved this thread.

Isn't it funny, but I too think of Don in a good way, and as a spiritual friend, despite our differences or the stinging comments directed against me in another thread.  Dysfunctional family indeed.


M

recoverer wrote on Feb 14^th, 2008 at 1:59pm:

Tim: I believe it is quite clear that Don wasn't addressing Bruce Moen when he was speaking of thought police. The thought police came out way before Bruce moved this thread.

Hi Albert,

        Don made his post AFTER the thread was moved. Don said the thread was "banished".... referring to it being moved to the  "Off Topic" forum.

In his last post, Don doesn't deny that he includes Bruce Moen when he says " Thought Police"

It's clear to me that Don WAS addressing Bruce Moen when he used the silly phrase.

I also found it perplexing that he referred to you as "poor Albert", as-if you had been victimized or diminished in any way. I personally see you as "rich Albert".  You are overflowing with riches to share with your fellow sentient beings, generous and loving..... not "poor" at all.
And certainly not someone who needs to be an object of pity.

Love, Tim

DocM wrote on Feb 14^th, 2008 at 2:04pm:

Isn't it funny, but I too think of Don in a good way, and as a spiritual friend, despite our differences or the stinging comments directed against me in another thread.  Dysfunctional family indeed. M

...dysfunction.....in the most positive sense of the word, of course.....I've actually quite enjoyed reading each of you lately. It's been...interesting.   :)

Guys, if everyone "were exactly" the same, then our lives would be absolutley snoring boring!

Dysfunctional is quite a nice thing. Hmmm - yes indeed, it can allow us all to learn to practise "unconditional love".

Hugs,
Nanner

Nanner:

Regarding God, there are numerous teachings that don't speak of God as a being who oversees what he created. Eastern teachings often speak of source being as basically being pure consciousness, and everything else that came afterwards is nothing but a big mistake and delusion, and the sooner it goes away so that only pure consciousness remains, the better. When God/primary source is spoken of in such a way, he is spoken of in a highly impersonal sense. Some people such as myself, believe that the creative aspect of God is a wonderful thing, as long as the beings who make use of it do so in a loving and wise way.

There are new age teachings which suggest that all of us are parts of God, and God is the result of what all of us created. I do believe that we add to what is created, but this doesn't mean that God starts existing in a tangible way, only after we get going with the process of creation.

I look at it this way. If each of us can be aware of and think of everything that exists within us, and a higher self/oversoul/disk can be aware of and think of everything that exists within it, and the planning intelligence Bruce wrote of can do the same, then why can't the being within which "everything" takes place (God), do the same? I find it puzzling that some board members find this possibility difficult to believe, because such board members tend to be supportive of Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen, and both Robert and Bruce wrote of a creator who created everything in a meaningful and purposeful way.

Regarding how people feel about Jesus Christ, I believe that a lot of people have been turned off by fundamentalist ideas, and it is hard to reconcile how Christ fits into the picture when fundamentalist thoughts are intertwined with our way of thinking of him. This was a big road block for me, until I realized that I didn't know one way or the other, asked for an understanding about what Christ is about, and received various experiences and messages that were quite supportive. In fact, I received some messages and had some experiences before I asked, but I was a little slow on the uptake. For example, one time I was involved with a retrievel, and the man I was trying to help forgot all about me when accross a bay the image of Christ appeared, gold light radiated from where Christ was, and the man floated to where Christ was.

I still don't know what Christ is all about, but I don't believe he was a man who expected to be worshipped when he was here. He was way too humble, loving, sensible and giving to be like that. He simply came here to help.  Even though some Christians have done things through out the years that have been negative, there are also many Christians who have done positive things.  I believe that billions of people have avoided going to lower realms after they die, partly because of their Christian faith. I couldn't tell you what Christ's precise role in the World of spirit is, but I know that he has helped me and he has helped others.

Are there other light beings besides Christ? Well, of course. However, I see no need to give such credit when it isn't deserved.



Nanner wrote on Feb 14^th, 2008 at 5:27am:

Don to extend my thougths on this subject I`d like to bring back these words into this: Quote: Rondelle: Here's a big difference between Jesus and false gurus: Jesus set about to do what he did, even though he knew he would be crucified at a young age. False gurus do what they do, because they expect to enjoy a life of manipulating and controlling people; being put on a pedestal as some kind of God; and in many cases, engaging in sex with their followers. Regarding money, Jesus told his followers to give their money to the poor, while false gurus collect it. Jesus did what he did because of divine authority. False gurus designate themselves as Gods. I don't believe that Jesus is the only light being. I figure there are many. I figure that just about all of us become light beings eventually.  Even people who decide to become false gurus for a while. What I do not understand is this: Why do sooooooooooooo many people NOT believe in Christ and God for that matter? Hugs, Nanner

Doc, Blink, Tim-

Yeah I too share your affection for Don.  

And I think I know why, at least for me- Don doesn't indulge us with new-age woo-woo stuff.  His message is always consistent and direct.  

Today everyone seems so intent on boosting other folks' self esteem.  Many schools have even banned dodge ball in order to "preserve" the feelings of those who lose out.  It's hard to drive to the store without seeing a bumper sticker that someone's child made the honor roll.  It's all getting way too touchy feely and self indulgent.

So some of us probably hunger for some straight talk now and then.  That's where Don comes in.  He doesn't stroke us by sending us waves of PUL (whatever the heck that is).  He just lays it out there.  Reminds me of a crusty old teacher I had in high school, kids couldn't stand her and we dreaded going to her class.  Yet, in looking back, I learned more in that one semester than all the other courses combined.

So thanks Don.  You continue to be a breath of fresh air and a welcome voice of tough love.

I must add that I don't get the feeling that the people who participate on this forum are going to get involved with somebody like Osho in a serious way. They'll read what moves them and then move on. I believe they are loving people, and will do quite fine regardless of whether somebody like Osho passes on a false idea or two. As I've said on other posts, each of us will have false beliefs to let go of, when it is time for us to move on to the light.