Hi all of you wonderful people,
recently I have come in contact with some pretty heavy digestable stuff.

I tell you not... this subject has been the root of "wars, caused normal human beings to kill family and friends, been the raise and fall of empires and has caused havoc of all sorts. The topic is called:

THE BIBLE and RELIGION

I`m not affraid to converse openly about the subject and I hope that none of you are either. For the topic does have a real part and impact on the way "everyone in the world thinks about the "afterlife".

I dared to go look it up. I dared to question what mass has been taught. I wanted to know "where did the info come from" which is in my bible laying int he livingroom. The one great piece of work which is suppose to have the answers to every question I shall ever have in my lifetime. The one great truth, which I am suppose to teach my children and read with my spiritual eye.

Oh maybe I shouldnt have done so - for I have so many more questions now than I had before. I believe my journey is quite in reference to something bigger than what we can imagine. I believe now that 2012 is going to be the end, but NOT THE END OF THE WORLD, but rather the "END OF THE WAY HUMANS HAVE HAD THE WORLD IN THEIR BANN"

What I`m interested in reading today is your oppinion to what I found out. Excuse me, if I come across a bit "dumb" but I really really really didnt know what I am about to share, and if YOU knew, why the friggin heck haven`t you started a topic on it, so that I wouldnt have to find out the hard way.. Booger!

Here goes:
I thought the bible was the unsolicited truth of the original scriptures. Nope!
I thought that the translations of the orginial englisch version from the aramic / hebrew / greek scriptures were the correct translations. Nope theres been at least 2000 corrections since 1523.
I thought the name "God" was the "NAME OF THE ONE IN CHARGE OF OUR UNIVERSE" which I should have been able to find in the original scriptures from those words written in stone, papyris and rough lamb skin left behind for us to find. Nope!

Goes to show I need to stop "thinking" as I had always hit it wrong!..lol..

Are you guys gonna fill me in one anything else I havent found out yet about these scriptures?
Pls. someone tell me why human would distort the original scriptures over all of these centuries.

and then give me a hug please,
Nanner

Tell me what you know.

Hi Nanner-
According to my wife, God is very tolerant, and she has no problem with our foolishness and tendency to make up convenient myths to explain our own perversity.

I figure that until we locate the ancient repository of cosmic documents, with the Earth's Building Permit with the Inspectors' seals, and all old secret documents signed with a big red "G", we'll doubtless get it all wrong anyway, so who cares? Meanwhile we can invent new and improved religions so as to blunt the lessons of karma.

God has arranged all this very carefully, so that the ecclesiastical leadership can dump all manner of superstitious garbage into the heads of the multitudes. That's job security for us therapists who can spend our time trying to repair the rationalizations of the public who can't seem to reconcile their fantasies and experiences.

One of my favorite myths is the Jesus was born and lived with the specific intention of being put to death in an especially horrible manner. The churchmen are elated to tell us, "Jesus died for our sins." That's such a tricky way to handle the preposition "for", with its alternative meanings. My interpretation is more like "Jesus died because of our sinful intolerance."  (And we're bloody well responmsible.) The manner in which the responsibility for crucifixion of this just man has been shifted from us, as a hateful society, to God, who is by the same arguments ultimately responsible for everything nasty and evil, never fails to boggle my little mind.

In my life, Nanner, which is certainly no more than barely marginal in morality, the greatest thing I had to face was that I am either directly, or by my nature indirectly, one of those cruel people who either was in the screaming crowds seeking blood, or I might have held the whips, driven the nails, or mocked him as he died. To accept that in myself changed my attitude greatly.

I don't think that we're ready to accept our own nature as yet. There are some in-built conflicts. Fortunately, we're able to send off our sons and daughters to fight our battles. So by sacrificing some of them to Moloch, and when the rest return home, to Mammon, everything proceeds with status quo.

On a brighter side, now that we have the ability to see the inequities of the system we're supporting, we have the ability to escape it. More than that, we can help others to escape it. There's hope!  :-)

dave

Dave - it made since what you wrote. However does it "justify" the mass distruction it causes?

This is what I had read:

Did you know that "scholars" today divide about 30/30 over whether God's Eternal Holy Name is Jehovah or Yahweh? Another 20% of pastors and Bible teachers believe and teach both are "among His many names," or they believe His name is "LORD or God" as most english Bibles translate. The final 20% believe His "Sacred Name" is lost and can never be recovered! Yet did any of them ever tell you all three of these "names" come from the same 4 letter AbrAHUW (a Royal Hebrew) Name that the original scripture says is God's ETERNAL HOLY Name a total of 7,777 times?  Even a novice in Hebrew scripture immediately wonders if the scholars know what they are saying if they vary this widely over one 4 letter word! Since most scholars disagree, obviously most scholars don't know the truth concerning His Name! What an embarrassment that the scholars and believers lost God's Holy Name! That is why you hardly hear any Christian minister talk about this huge problem! Indeed, many admit, we really do not know how to pronounce this ancient Name! On top of that, this is not His "Hebrew name" as many have said. This is His Eternal Holy Name, the Name that never changes! It is the same in every language, every era, every earth and every universe, just like yours is except your name may not be eternal. Any Eternal Name never changes!

This is the earliest copy of Paul's letter of First Corinthians (upper left). Under the overlined two words in the center you can see for yourself the Name the church in 180 AD was calling the Savior. The overline indicated a name. It reads XPY IHY which clearly is CRUW YAHUW, meaning " The Anointed King of YAHUWAH: YAHUWAH". This papyri is found in the Chester Beatty collection in Dublin dating 180 AD. It is consistent with over 2200 manuscripts before the end of the fifth century but not the Catholic Vulgate which consistently uses "IESUS"! The "Holy Roman Empire Universal Church" pronounced IESUS as "Ee-Zeus" meaning "Out of SUS (the normal Roman spelling of "Zeus", as in "Ephe-SUS" (the strength of SUS").

In the hereto strange story of the tower of Babel, God was greatly angry at mankind working together to construct a great city and a great tower to the heavens. Why? It was man’s heart! “Let us build OURSELVES a city with a tower that reaches the heavens so that we may make a NAME FOR OURSELVES” Gen 11:4. Mankind had enormous power in the pure perfect communication of the original YAHUWAHn language. All were pulling together. They could do great mighty things. Then they turned the power of the sacred Name of God and His Name’s intrinsic power against God by seeking to use the power of God’s Name to make a name for themselves greater to or equal to that of YAHUWAH God!

The confusion that resulted from the corruption of new languages was cut off by the flood and NoAH's restoration. Again, the sons of NoAH forgot YAHUWAH. God restored faith again through AbrAHam and SarAH and it held fast for five generations, down through MannasAH and EphraYAam. Then MosAH (sn Moses) had to restore it again. Four hundred years later in 1000 AD, King DaUWd (sn-David) restored faith in YAHUWAH, then in 850 BC EliYAH restored it, then YermeYAHUW (sn Jeremiah) and NehemYAH (sn Nehemiah) restored it the sixth time. Finally, MesshiYAH, YAHUWshua the ChristUW restored YAHUWAHn faith the perfect seventh time and became the perfect sacrifice for our sins. Heaven and eternal life was wide open now for any who would "repent and be immersed (saturated in) the Name (Spirit) of YAHUWAH the King (ChristUW) for the remission of his sin and he shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Then the "Great Tribulation", predicted in MatithYAHUW (Mt) 24 by YAHshua, came upon the YAHUWAHns beginning with the martyrdom of Pastor YAcob (sn-James) of Jerusalem, the great missionary Apostle PaUWl and PetUWr in 67 AD. The believer's were scattered across the earth and millions were persecuted or killed during the Roman Empire persecution, then even more so under the Catholic Church and its blasphemous gods. We still say 18 of their pagan gods (6+6+6) almost daily in popular christianity today! (The seven days of the week and first eight months of the year give you 15 of them).

The Great Tribulation was finally broken 1290 years later (67-1357) by the preaching of John Wycliff and the Lollards in 1357-1397. John Wycliff first used the precious "Sus-breaking name" of "Jee-Sus", meaning "enough of you Sus"! "The Sun (Sungod worship of Constantine with the Abomination "IeSus") began to be darkened" (Acts 2). The 2nd and "Lesser Tribulation" has continued down to 1396-2007 AD? when the end of Daniel's lesser tribulation of 1335 years is being shortened (MtYH 24). Through God's power, love and graciousness, He has started the final and great Restoration in 2001 AD!

Many religious merchants continue this day to seek to make a name for themselves rather than to lead Christians to be one under God’s eternal Name. This is why, today, there are 42,000 “Christian” denominations today! Many churches today put their Denomination names on their signs, lifting up the differences between Christians while ignoring the HOLY NAME OF ALMIGHTY GOD who is our ONE SAME  FATHER, SAVIOR and HOLY SPIRIT! What ignorance, blasphemy and pride!

The scriptures call The Covenant-Family of God “my people who are called by my Name”. Satan has so deceived today’s church that we think a man created name is more important to be called by (Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc) than by hwhy YAHUWAH’s eternal Name! No wonder today’s Church is so confused! Most Denominations and Orders originated from Godly origins by Godly men called to  renew true faith. Then gradually pride, money and power got in and a “good name” was gradually accepted which replaced God’s Holy Name. Thus, that “description” (Holy Roman Universal (Catholic) Church, anabaptisers (Baptist), method-ist, presbyters, pente-costers, charis-matics, ortho-dox (right writings), become  “substitutes of YAHUWAH’s” name! Then they become “graven (graphite, written) images replacing YAHUWAH’s Name upon us”! “I am YAHUWAH…Thou shalt make no (“graphite” or “written”) graven images” I MosAH (Exodus) 20!

And if that wasnt enough:
I read this:

SO WHO CHANGED YAHUWshua TO "IESUS" AND THEN "JESUS?"

In Greek, the “YA” in AbrAHUW (Paleo-Hebrew) was usually transcribed as iota or “I” and pronounced correctly as “YA.” Greek used the letter H "hoi" as the "AH" sound. The capital case of the Greek letter "heta" is also H and is sometimes "ah," sometimes "ee." ALL OF THE EARLY GREEK SCRIPTURES, UP TO 700 AD, WERE WRITTEN IN CAPITAL GREEK LETTERS called Majuscules (some scholars call them "Uncials" which correctly applies only to Latin manuscripts).

The Vulgate is the Roman Empire Church's Latin redacted and corrupted and only Catholic authorized translation of the Greek and Hebrew scripture started in 325 AD and finished in the early fifth century, 412 AD by Jerome.

The Vulgate was the first to change our Savior's Holy Name from IHY or IU (YAHUW)  to "IESUS." As with any large group, this did not happen overnight. "The love of many" had grown cold among the fringe and "business first" christians. Gradually, the popular generalized "kurios" (Lord) had replaced "YAHUWAH the Savior" among "Romanized christians". Later abbreviations IC, IHS (the Greek "YAHUWshous",  meaning "YAHUWAH Saves") was re-interpreted to mean "IeSus" as it remains today among Catholics and adopted by reformation "christians!" "IeSus" gave rise to "Jesus." The Catholic Church changed the iota hoi "IH" ("YAHUW") to iota heta "IE" (pronounced "YEe") and the "shous" to "Sus" which allowed the Roman Empire's millions of "Sus" (Seus, Zeus) sun-god worshippers to join this new "Holy Roman Universal christianity" without changing their god! "Iesus" means "out of Sus" or "Son of Sus/Zeus!" Your choice is "who do you follow," "Zeus" or YAHUWAH? YAHUWAH IS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD!

Thousands of true YAHUWAHn ChristiYAans steadfastly objected to this "Abomination that desolates" the way of salvation our God made for us. They protested the huge influx of "Sus" worshippers of Rome's new "Universal Catholic Circe (Church)." The minutes of the first "Church Council" 321-325 AD, called the Council of Nicea, states "We will have nothing in common with the YAHUWAHns who killed our Dominus." They made it a death penalty to worship on the Sabbath. Being the 4th Commandment, this gave reason to slaughter the YAHUWAHns who would not change.

They outlawed the worship of YAHUWAH. At first, Constantine had allowed "religious freedom" but when the Catholic Circe (Church) failed to attract the majority of Roman subjects, it was made mandatory to join the Circe (Church). By the way, Circe (Church) means- sorcery, seanc'e, and/or circus. Shocking, huh? The few remaining YAHUWAHns again refused to join the Circe/Church! They were rewarded with a martyrs death. Based upon the catacombs of Rome alone, over 2 million YAHUWAHns were slaughtered in the first years of "the Catholic Circe/Church!"

SUMMARY OF EVIDENCE FOR YAHUWAH AS OUR GOD IN SCRIPTURE

1) No true scholar debates that "Joshua's" true name in the Hebrew is "YAHUWshua". This is because "YAHUW" is well established by dozens of theophonic Scriptural words like "Hallel U YAH", YAHUWdAH, Abr AH am, "YAHkob", YAHUWseph, Yer U shalom, YeshaYAHUW, YermeYAHUW, ZackerYAHUW, MatithYAHUW, YAHUWcanon, Da UW d (David) and many others, most of which are corrupted and given sign names in English, for example, the YAH(UW) to "iah." The Massoretes also vowel pointed all of them correctly unless they began with YAHUW (as "YAHUWshua" in which they systematically changed them all to "Yeho"). However, remember, the Mishnah (the numerous burdensome oral laws from the Pharisees, "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees"), which they followed rigorously, commanded them to veil God's "Sacra Nomina," as indeed, their Rabbinical successors continue to do today.

However, the corruption of the Massoretes and Rabbi's did not have much influence in the Semitic world where the old pre-New Testament AbrAHUW (YAHUWdAH, YAHUWAHns, sn-Hebrews) had traveled for 1500 years before them! These Biblical theophonic (words that have parts of YAHUWAH's name in them, used as a message) words are still widely used in over 500 Semitic languages today by millions of people, all heavily infiltrated with 3,000 years of YAHUWdAH diaspora (the scattered AbrAHUW speaking YAHUWAHns)! Even the Koran (Quran) reflects many theophonic words. (Mohammad joined a synagogue and practiced "Yudaism" in his early years! What a pity he did not meet a YAHUWAHn. However, still, the Koran (Quran) teaches that the "one hundredth" Name of God, which is yet to be revealed to them, is the saving Eternal Name of God and will be revealed only in the "Latter Days!" The Quran also teaches that the TorAH (the five books of MoshAH), the Nabii (the Prophets) and the "Injil" (the Gospels as properly translated or in their originals) are all from God and should be read by all peoples, especially all Muslims!

To argue against the hundreds of Scriptural theophonic names and words, you would have to assert that somehow millions of semitic people separated by thousands of miles in hundreds of different languages and cultures, intertwined with ancient diaspora Jews, by some "really incredible fluke," all changed the original "Yeho" names to the now false YAHUW names they use today! If you can believe this, I want to sell you some of my palaces on the moon!

2) The Greek translation of the AbrAHYAHUW (HebreW) Books of MoshAH, called the Septuagint, written in 250-150 BC, translates "YAHUWshua" as "IHSOYS." Most modern scholars think the Greeks were incapable of saying "YAHUWshous," which would be exactly the Greek equivalent (as discussed above) and somehow were forced to say "EEZus." They ignore the early Greek texts which universally write the Savior's name as IHY, IH, IU, IC and a few later ones as IHS, all of which are abbreviations for IHYH or IHsoys which is the phonetic transliteration of "YAHUWAH" and "YAHUWshus". Obviously, IH. IU and IHY in the Greek texts mean "YAHUW." In most early Greek texts, like P-45, P-46, P-72, P-77, Codex Sinaticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandricus and the Ephraemi pamlimpset, the "SOYS' is left off because of three main reasons.

a) Every YAHUWAHn ChristYAn believer knew it was the AbrAHUW (gk-EbrAHisti) word for Savior, Saves, and Salvation and was not part of the eternal salvific Holy Name of YAHUWAH the King.

b) It also had the "PRIMARY" meaning expressed in Acts 2:36, "this YAHUWshua, whom you crucified, God has made him both YAHUWAH and ChristUW (King)." YAHUWshua the incarnated prophet was also YAHUWAH Himself as a human form!

c) One of the most important reasons "SOYS" is not placed in our Savior's name in the original Greek New Testament is because of the possible intentional corruption of associating our Savior with the popular god "Sus" (as in Ephe-Sus, also spelled Seus, Zeus)! This of course is exaclty what the Holy Roman Universal Empire (Catholic) did in 321 AD and continue to do until this very day!

IMPORTANT NOTE: The Greek "SOYS" never occurs in any of the early original manuscripts of the New Testament as a name for our Savior!!!

Our primary modern scholars fear going against the current popular "Circe" (Church) tradition and telling you the truth. They want you to keep "supporting the church" which in turn encourages you to buy their corrupt "Catholic/Protestant Bibles." Therefore, you must see this for yourself! If our English "IAH" as in IsaIAH, JeremIAH, ZackerIAH and HalleluIA all come through the Greek for the original Hebrew "YAH," why do they translate the same Greek letters (IH) for the Savior's Name as "Je" (for "Jesus")? Why don't we sing "AHleleu-JEa"?

It is very obvious they are bowing to popular, traditional or economic pressure rather than using their normal excellent translation skills! If they can trace early English Hallel U IAH through Greek to the Hebrew correctly, they can easily get YAHUWshua (instead of "JeZus") and YAHUWAH (instead of "Jehovah" "Yehweh" or "YAHweh"). All the Hebrew letters and phonics are the same! The other 240 theophonic Scriptural names and places are pure overkill! There really should not even be debate on this among true scholars!

3) As if we need any more overkill, we also have a basic repeat of the above in Early Assyrian, Coptic, Syriac, Arabic, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Korinthian, Mystran and Western Greek pre-Vulgate manuscripts!

4) The horrible history of the Catholic Church!

Obviously, Jerome and the "Holy Roman Empire" did not understand the Holiness of God's or the Saviors's name. Secondly, they simply wanted to wrestle any remnant authority away from residual pockets of true "YAHUWAHn believer's who still called upon His Name, challenging the authority of the "holy Roman Empire." Finally and most demonic, one third of the Roman Empire under Constantine worshipped the old Greek Supreme god Sus (Seus, Zeus). "Ie Sus" means in both Greek and Latin "Son of Sus!" Constantine was a devoted sun-god worshipper (Sus being the most popular name among sun-god worshippers) for 30 years after declaring "Christianity" the Empire's "universal" religion! He, in conspiracy with corrupt "Bishops," changed our Savior's Eternal Name to the pagan name "son of Sus (IeSus, which 1,200 years later became Jesus)."

No doubt, God's YAHUWAHn remnant down through history has been made up of individualist thinkers and people of courage! It took real committment to go up against the entire Roman empire both before the Great Corruption of the fourth century and even more afterwards when you were threatened with death by the Roman politicians, the Roman Church and after 638 AD, the sword of the Muslims! Millions died at the stake for holding fast to their "YAHUWAHn Faith!" We look forward to meeting these great warriors in the coming Kingdom!

A few "Qahals" (Covenant-families of YAHUWAHns) survived, but most were martyred by Catholic death squads as heretics. Occasionally a brilliant passion for God and His Word would spring forth in the centuries following, but it appears most were martyred quickly. Then the Holy Spirit of YAHUWAH broke the first 1,290 years of The Great Tribulation with the preaching of the Oxford professor John Wycliff and his "Lollards." They would stand on street corners of London and other English cities and towns, reading Wycliff's english translation of the Catholic Vulgate (which was evidently all he had).

Between 412-1777 AD, the Catholic Church prohibited by death the translation of the Latin Vulgate into any language of the people, especially the increasingly freedom loving English and Scottish! Then a great YAHUWAHn Eagle arose among the Dutch named Johan AHlen. He found a Majority Text Greek New Testament and became a YAHUWAHn. He was soon martyred by "the Church," but his faith greatly impressed another young man name Valla. Valla collected several Greek manuscripts and himself became a full YAHUWAHn. The church arrested him also and burned him alive. Valla's half-disciple was a man named Erasmus, who changed the course of history for the next five hundred years by changing the Greek New Testament YAHUWshua to the Catholic Vulgate Iesu and Iesus. By doing this, the church let him live, but Erasmus' corrupted text led all the Protestant Reformers astray, keeping the Catholic "Iesus."

Whereas the printing of the translated Vulgate and Erasmus Scriptures in 1480-1600 AD gave rise to the great Reformation of the 1500's, YAHUWAH's true path of salvation was again buried in the Original Scriptures waiting for a later day when truth doers would seek this Holy Word "with all their heart." This would finally throw off the Great Tribulation of Daniel 12 and MatithYAHUW 24. Although the "Great Corruption," already 1200 years old at the time of the Reformation, was deeply embedded, the Reformers blazed away at the more obvious corruptions of the "Holy Roman Church," like buying forgiveness of sin by purchasing "indulgences" from the church and "salvation is only in the Catholic Church!"

The Catholic Church was losing thousands as the Protestant preachers correctly branded them "The Anti-Christ" and the "Beast of Mystery Babylon" in Rev 12 & 13. This was the Beast that revived the gods of ancient Babylon having "blasphemous names upon her head" (Rev 12 & 13). The "demonically brilliant" Jesuit priest Ribera in the Council of Trent (1545) came up with a new theory of "the Rapture of the Church" in the end times. Since that "rapture obviously had not taken place, the Catholic Church could not be the Beast of Rev 12 & 13 or the Anti-Christ. The amazing part is that from the publishing of the Scofield Bible in the early 1900's, most Protestant preachers have bought Ribera's diversion!  

The Council of Trent in 1545 led to the rise of "The Jesuits" who vowed to defend the Pope with their very lives. They revived "The Inquistions" which burned at least 70,000 innocent truth loving believers at the stake and slaughtered hundreds of thousands more on the battlefields. In some areas, only 25% of evangelical pacifists like the Anabaptist and Menonites survived the genocide of Catholics and State Church "Protestants." However, out of this reform came a multitude of Biblically based reforms continuing even today. Most of our modern denominations were begun by spiritual pioneers "trying" to return to scriptural truth. Yet most of them, with over 42,000 "christian" denominations now, would be horrified how their successors have used their work to divide God's people today even more and to foster more violence.

then I read this:

If this is your first time to hear this, you might be shocked! Our only desire is for you to know the truth! If  your pastor, church leaders, or church empirical believes "Jesus Saves," we have a $10,000 Challenge to prove that is not right! We want you to know the truth! The time has come for the deception of Satan to come down! Like in the times of EliYAH (sn-Elijah) it is time to break the idols in the land. The $10,000 Challenge will stop opinions and get people to deal with the truth!

Many blessings,

I am still in awe of what I am reading, simply because they back it up with pictures of the scrolls from the dead sea, as well as other scrolls with were translated by non-biased people not belonging to a denominational direction. (at the time) ..

Most of the earliest Greek texts write the Savior's Name as IHY (iota, hoi, upsilon, "YAHUW" which always means "YAHUWAH"). Of course, all of us were taught it was "Jesus"! None of the earliest 3700 ancient Greek texts of Holy Scripture say "Jesus" but that does not mean you did not encounter YAHUWAH the Savior!  Most of the earliest, like the Chester Beatty Papri now in Ireland, simply write the Savior's name as IHY  (YHU). Some write His name IH, IHYS , IHSOYS or just H. It is possible, according to later Greek scholars,  that IHY could have been pronounced "YeHU", as indeed the Massoretes five hundred years later passionately tried to do for 1000 years (and largely succeeded) in their well documented camouflage campaign by changing the true name of the "Jews" from YAHUWdAH to "YehUWdAH". However, this pronunciation was obviously impossible when those same Hebrews and Greeks in PetUWr's pentecost audience were almost daily saying "Ahlelu YAH" ("praise You YAH"). Every one of the YAHUWdaios (the common man around Christ) knew YAH. Nobody called God "Jeho"! Not once in all 28,000 ancient Greek texts does "Ahlelu Yeho" occur, as would be the case if "Jehovah" were correct!

Watch the interchangabliity of the Name of the Father and YAHUW(soUW) in the Scriptures, showing that the early believer's both equated them but actually inserted "ChristUW" to distinguish them apart!.

Q: SO WHAT ABOUT THE NAME "JEHOVAH"?

A: Following the Catholic hybrid "Iehovah", which came from ignorantly inserting the Massoretic (Yehudi rabbis and scribes 450-1400 AD) vowel pointing  for "Elohim or Adonai", inserted in the Hebrew scriptures 500-1000 years after Christ "e,o,a" into IHVH, William Tyndale copied the Catholic translation into English IHVH as “Iehovah” in eight verses in 1530 AD. There was alot of protest that He was adding to the scriptures but gradually folks got use to saying "Eehouah" spelled "Iehovah". 1500 AD England had rarely heard anything but "Lord" (Adonai) for God's name, much like today. So Tyndale's later printed copies put the English “LORD” back in place of _ hwhy _ the other 6820 times in the Chumash (Pentetuch or first five Books of Moses) and “Old” Testament. “Lord” was substituted for YAHUWAH probably about 1800 times in the “New” Testament. The latter Greek texts blurr this distinction. Again, we have seen the example, Kepha quotes YAH-el (Joel) 2:32 in Acts 2:21. In the Hebrew it reads literally   “Whoever calls upon the Name of YAHUWAH will be saved”. The Latter Greek Church, at least 120 years (but probably 220 years) after Christ changed it in Acts 2 to read “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord (“Kurios”) will be saved”! No doubt the Church continued to wrestle with new Jewish and Gentile converts who had been taught the "ineffable name" (too sacred to say) teachings of the Talmud and Jewish High Priests. As today, a "generic" title like "Kurios" was readily acceptable to most Greek speakers. As today in Greece, "kurios" is used as a polite greeting title for any half decent man! It is certainly not a unique title unless it is refering to God as our "Master".

Again, in the Septuagint, the Egyptian Magical Papyri, the Greek poets and writers,  “Baal” was normally translated as “Kurios” in Greek as well! Most Believers today have used “Lord” so much it feels sacrilegious not to say “Lord”. That is just what Satan wants. “Lord” is even today used for thousands of regular men as well as idols and other gods. (Remember George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" song, speaking of "Lord Krishna!)

.....

and then I too asked:

HOW EXACTLY DID THIS ENORMOUS PROBLEM GET SO BAD?

Somewhere after the Great EliYAH Restoration, probably exactly in 743 BC, some "political power" priests started teaching that "YAHUWAH" was too sacred to pronounce. They quit speaking YAHUWAH’s name in daily praise, then in family devotion, then in worship, then finally, even in the national feasts. The corrupted Covenant-Family AbrAHUW became "EbreUW" and "Yeudi". Subsequently, the lost of YAHUWAH's blessings began a 2520 year series of cycles of gradual deterioration, division, defeat, exile, revival and return, exile, return, defeat, dispersion, suffering and persecution until 1777 AD (the Independence of AmerYca as a free Scripture based nation (MannasAH?) for all peoples) when God began the first dawning of the Great Return. After such a Great Tribulation, both Christian and Jewish preaching had completely lost God's Name and subsequently, their own true name (YAHUWAHns, YAHUWdAH).

In 743 BC, gradually, the people too began to replace -YAHUWAH’s name with titles, including the Babylonian, Assyrian and Hebrew word of “Baal”. Translated, it means “Lord”, the very same word used to cover our Savior's Holy Name today! Baal (Bel) in Greek was translated “kyrios” by the Greeks and Romans also meaning  “Lord” so as not to offend anyone’s god, just as it is used today in “religious Christianity” to mean anyone’s “god”. The more ‘politically correct” Hebrew rabbis taught the very same thing. Following the Talmud instead of Holy Scripture, in reading the Scripture they changed God’s Holy Name 6823 times in the Tanach (OT) alone, substituting “Adonai” or "Elohim" for “YAHUWAH” which again, is Hebrew for “Lord”, “master” or “sir”. (The English still use "Lord" as a human title for thousands of normal men). “But what is all the fuss” someone might ask. After all, God is God by whatever name right? Wrong, says Almighty God! He put His Name in all three of the first three of the 10 Commandments! Our Savior, when asked what is the most important, replied "Love YAHUWAH your God with all your heart, and with all your mind and with all your strength"!

So I began looking for
dead sea scrolls taking a good look at the written/drawn sections - began looking up "that name" to see whats it all about and cross referenced their info in regards to todays world and things we all say about the afterlife. Hmmmmm - I bet alot of people are mad at me now..


There is an order in the universe and it always had a name!

http://www.yahuwah.org/ is where I found some of the info

But I`ll tell them - I love ya anyway!
Nanner

Bloody hell Nanner! What a lot of stuff.

This is a topic I've given quite a lot of thought to. My personal instinct is simply to stay light and open on it.

I've watched lots of people who from their position in society should know better get bogged down in the 'how many angels fit on the head of a pin' type argument over the years. I've likewise watched very highly educated people (and this is legitimately as a result of the imprecision of language - before you add the possibility of intentional bias playing a part) draw wildly varying meanings from the same words. And finally I've watched the utter cynicism of the way those in power abuse fact and meaning for their own ends - whether they are religious or not.

I then match this with the degree to which it becomes clear we are required to take responsibility in life and ultimately make our own calls on everything.

Though I'm no expert I'm happy to read the Bible from time to time, and impressed and consoled at the way there's lots in there that seems to imply that biblical religion was much more esoteric and dealt with many more of the same issues as we do than those that built the subsequent Roman inspired conservative, hierarchical and institutional religion would like us to believe. I'm happy to draw on the ideas it suggests.

But that's as far as it goes. A little time around Buddhist thought quickly knocks out any tendency one might have to fasten on to anything very much in this highly relativistic world as absolute. Given the above i'm most certainly not prepared to get hung up on the absolute interpretation of sections of it. I run a mile when friends of a more fundamentalist evangelical tinge start quoting bits of it to me as absolute truths.

Predictably enough I'd argue for the middle way - draw on what seems useful, but in a light, open minded and practical way understanding that while it may contain lots of use that it equally is very much a work of man. In the knowledge that as our own view evolves our take on certain topics may change too.

Pardon me if this offends anybody.....

I'll say this:

A person shouldn't be afraid to question the Bible.  If people are free to misinterpret God's way today, why wouldn't they be free to misinterpret God's way when people responsible for the word's of the Bible lived?

For years I thought I was free of not being able to question the Bible, until a day came along where I found that I still had an aspect of mind in place that was afraid to question it.  This aspect thought in terms of: "If I question it, I'll be doomed and sent to hell for all of eternity."

What helped me get over this aspect was realizing that if I'm smart and loving enough to realize that concepts such as eternal damnation and a rathful, angry and jealous God don't make sense, then so are spirit beings such as God, who live completely according to love and divine wisdom.

When it came to the truth of Christ, I realized that I didn't know the answers and never would figure them out through a book based search, and opened myself to finding out through spiritual means that Christ is a big part of humanity's divine reality. I can't say specifically how, but I feel confident that he is here to help people who ask for his help, because he has helped me and he has helped others. I also feel confident that his manner of being is beyond a dogmatic, fundamentalist, distator like way of being.

Regarding his dying for our sins, I look at it this way, perhaps I'm wrong.  Part of Jesus' fame is due to the fact that he was nailed to a cross and came to life again. Partly because of this, many, many people have considered him to be a source of spiritual leadership. They chose a path of goodness, rather than a path of darkness. Therefore, they avoided sin.  I know that many people choose a path of goodness without being Christian, but this doesn't negate the fact that many people have chosen a path of goodness and avoided sin because of their faith in Christ.

Even Christians who "haven't" lived according to his commandment of love your neighbor as yourself, have benefited after they died, because they remembered to call out for his help.

Consider Bruce's story of Sylvia from Voyage of Curiosity's father. Bruce was suprised to see that she became a light being so quickly, since she was an abusive person while alive. Fortunately, after she died, because of her belief in Christ, she called out for help and received it.

The same thing happened for Howard Storm during his near death experience. Before he had the experience he wasn't a nice man. He ended up in a lower realm.  But then he remembered about Christ, asked for help, and received it.

I believe the key is that regardless of what people do during their life, if after they die they realize they made a mistake and chose to live according to love and divine will rather than darkness, they'll receive the help they need.

Overall, I believe that if a person decides to live according to love, then he or she will be okay regardless of what religion he or she follows.  CERTAINLY, the divine powers that be understand why we get involved with all kinds of belief systems.

ROFL...V.
I know honey, but I was affraid not to be able to remember it - so I flunked the memory game and just copied.. Geeez I loved that sentence: Bloody hell Nanner! What a lot of stuff.

I am still cross referencing and need some insights from you all on it. We`ll get to the bottom of it all before long.
Hugs,
Nanner

Well said Recoverer - so there is truth in all the translations of the scriptures "obviously left for mankind to find"? Had the misleading translations into Vugate ergo then english had the purpose to create such havoc, as we find fighting up against today? Maybe to prepare the living soul to "understand the transition" which is about to happen?

Were the prophets then actually what we call "mysticos" today,

Quote: A person shouldn't be afraid to question the Bible.

So why are there so many people whom don`t!?
In all seriousness, why do so many not question the translations?

I guess it's not all that long Nanner since you'd have been burned at the stake for seriously doing so. And I think the resulting behaviours (which have been enforced for many centuries) eventually became cultural values which until very recently were taboo as well.

Robert Pirsig's book 'Lila' is about as interesting and clarifying a book as I can think of on the way this stuff works - actually to block societal progress through the resulting stasis.

The magic though is that those intent on manipulating translations to suit the agenda of the hierarchy as a result of the consequent tunnel vision concentrate only on one view. And as a result inadvertently left all sorts of truths in there as R says unnoticed at the time - but oh so meaningful to a different mind thinking in a more holistic and  esoteric vein...

So V, did I just catch you politly calling me a witch, or what...lol..?  ;D If so then I must be a modern one, for I use a vacumcleaner now a days.

Hi Nanner - Of course you use a vacuum cleaner - this is the jet age!

That's quite a compendium of historical maladaptions of truth in service of alliteration - or did it go the other way?

Next time I bump into God on the street I'll have to ask her what she likes to be called - meanwhile, howsabout "Bob"? Of course it doesn't alliterate quite as well. - In Aramaic that would be "Allel lu Bob".  I can almost hear it now, like the Morman Tabernacle choir in Vatican Square.

As far as I can see, this whole thing is endless. The solution is to stop doing it. The chasing after the ultimate name of God - hmm Bob, that is -  must ultimately end in silence. How much simpler to handle this aspect of history like the large circular receptable on the floor near me - dump it and start clean.

Besides, lookng at the way all this mess was begun, another perfectly useful and totally valid name of God is "Nanner". ;-)

Allel lu Nanner - hmmm - ?

dave

Good subject, Nanner....I simply refuse to believe everything I read....

I don't believe God gives one whit what we call Him/Her/It/All That Is/Whatever. As far as I am concerned, these are all stories, and they are certainly mesmerizing...but this doesn't feel like my God.

My God has no name.

We all come to the Light.


love, blink :)

Hey Dave - they have these new little vacume cleaners which "zoom about all by themselves" now..lol..

Blink - I agree for the most part, however the point of starting the thread is to vividly "point out" the many errors in mankind and his/her interpretation. How a dogma manipulated by mankind can become the absolute "reality" for which an indiviual or many individuals will even fight, fuss or kill over.

Its just too easy to ignore the one very important fact:
THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES WERE WRITTEN IN ARAMIC, HEBREW AND GREEK.

In the course of my research I am finding in the beginning that the originals were used as a type oppression cause. The "church" was created, people were slaughtered and then the scriptures were eventually translated into other languages. Many many people had the opportunity to "translate" the originals but there were only a chosen few whom dared.
Now looking at the circumstance of the timeframe it must have been quite scarey for the translator - for he wasnt able to translate without having to worry about someone knocking on the door, get my drift? In the rush of things he naturally made mistakes in the translation.

However until that was then corrected by other translators approx. 2000 times - many people had already been killed in the name of God, as back then the Kings and Lords sent their armies out in the name of the church to fight.

Eventually more translations took place and then anyone whom practiced anything other than what had been written in that bible - was burned at the stake without a side dish of a bake potatoe and salad! They were called witches, sorcerers, wizards, devil worshipers etc.

To me its interesting to see that only 1 word had been kept in its original pronounciation: "Halleluja" although written incorrectly, everyone in every language there is today, still pronounces it "identically"...lol.. But yet the names of the people written about has always been modified and also the true name used by whom we call God. You can check this yourself.

Now lets bring that into our reality of today.

Considering the translations were partly incorrect, and alot of names and places were changed, some of the information was added or omitted for the sake of a church government - what does that leave us with? A MESS when people really start to find out! That brings us somehow to the year 2012, as by then the rest of the found scriptures are suppose to be finialized and let out to the public. (Although there are many which are still out there to be found)

In our day and age of technologie its very simple to get the word out. Theres going to be a big clash with the major religions of this world and I believe that the "people" are going to freak out for being lied to over so many centuries.

I firmly believe there is a higher justice in our universe, I believe this justice is filled with unconditional love for every soul not of a certain race etc..

If looking from a christian standpoint I would want to know what the name of my father is whom I am praying to, but what if someone out there told me the wrong name and I believed it without question only to be decieved by man, I`d be angry...
If looking at it from a catholic standpoint I would want to know where they got their infos from,  but what if I found out that the man translating did it wrong, so inturn I followed the biased instructions and was decieved by man, I`d be angry..

And what if a "nation" ends up killing other nations because the church biased governments say that that particular country is bad and in the name of God we have to correct that country -but in reality its because that country holds information which would be devasting to other church governments - if it were let loose.. Hmmm, thats what we are facing right now unless "people wake up and see that most of that which is going on is because for the lack of "unconditional love for thy neighbor".

I think before one can even let a sentence loose over another culture or someone elses religional beliefs they should stay open minded and if nothing else get educated on that before making a judgement. Then half of the problems we have in the world wouldnt be.

Love you all,
Nanner

So how do we clean up the mess? Choose a different President as leadership, which doesnt fit the "normal" standards of what we`ve seen sofar? Reach out to your neighbor just giving a bouquet of flowers and saying "I just wanted to extend a nice day to you today"? Hugging your family and friends more than ever before? Communicating with Foreigners of different cultures in a loving manner, so that their thought processes about your own culture may change for the positive at the same time?

What are our responsibilities?
:-?
Nanner

;) I wasn't intending to suggest you are a witch Nanner, but now that you mention it....

My take on this stuff is very hard to express. I've struggled before with wondering 'am I missing something' big. But this has eased. So this won't be a very satisfying answer. Maybe others have more to say on the subject.

We in a sense inhabit a moment of awareness, that's all. But as we meditate, study and reflect and gain experience the nature of that awareness evolves with insight and improved seeing. (or the opposite if we're on the ego path) Our 'view' (to use a Buddhist term) evolves.

This means that 'truth' such as it is is relative, and that as we progress along the path we'll come progressively to see higher truths. These can be quite prosaic (see the thread on social illusions I've just put up), or highly esoteric as we awaken to higher realities and start to deploy the insight and deep wisdom that this can if approached correctly bring.

What's ultimately required of us is that we learn, open, and evolve spiritually - that we shed the illusion of ego. What's required of us right this minute is that we work on whatever issues life is presenting us with to best develop our wisdom and compassion - our ability to live through love.

Every one of us gets a custom training course which karma makes sure responds exactly to our needs.

There's no magical high level formula that we need to know. The one requirement is that we take responsibility for ourselves and pro-actively set out down this road of working to become. You already know what to do, and if you get it wrong you'll get lots of feedback which will mean you'll know for the next time.

I'd caution that we're not necessarily required to do exceptional things, just live our lives right. Flowers are fine if they fit the situation, as is setting up a $20m charitable foundation, but just a form of acting if you're just role playing. Actually spiritual materialism in the latter case. (see the Chogyam Trungpa book reference in the thread on illusion)

God/higher mind has it in hand. Our task is to connect with and engage in the natural flow of life. The Tao. Not to meddle out of selfishness and lack of trust, and bugger things up.

We can progress faster if we meditate, study and reflect as above.

If we can do this lightly enough and with sufficient opening we eventually see that we don't actually need a road map. Just keep on asking the questions and life brings the answers you need....

Hmm that does ring a bell!
A wise Man once said:

Its not the answers you should be looking for, but rather the questions!

That's very true Nanner. I've written about this before so pardon the repeat, but it brings us back to the cocoon - the ego made system of self sustaining beliefs and orientations we surround ourselves with that ensures that our response to every situation is pretty much wholly predictable. Preconception ensures that we only connect with the data from it that reinforces our view of ourselves as victim, hero, saint, long suffering helper, intellectual - whatever our particular game is based on, although in practice our games are usually much more subtle than these grosser forms. (like say Deanna's churchman)

As result we normally don't perceive the questions being asked of us in a given situation. So the problem  is to create 'opening', or 'seeing', or 'awakening' - whatever term you like. And to then have the courage to act of this seeing. (which is normally accompanied by an intuitive knowledge of what's required of us) We won't necessarily always get it right, but we learn and do good compared to circling endlessly in a self made goldfish bowl.

We've nothing to loose, because if we snooze on watch we'll just accumulate more negative karma and waste more of the chance this precious life gives us to progress.

The first key to this is to create a lighter, or more spacious mind. In our usual frantic state the intensity of mind is normally such that the 'still small voice' of our true seeing is drowned out by the chattering of the ego. The second if we still can't act from the heart without more assurance (in the West we like to test things intellectually) is perhaps to intellectually figure  out why a certain course of action makes sense by applying the love based logic taught by the spiritual traditions rather than the 'gotta get ahead' logic of society.

We progress anyway through trial and error even if we remain unconscious, but it's slower. So 'spiritual work' is important - the meditation (to slow down the mind and create space) and study (so we can figure out how to act correctly) mentioned above.

The other important ingredient is mindfulness. We can know all we like in intellectual terms, but if when situations arise we're not mindful enough to catch ourselves heading off down the old habitual path of the cocoon then it's useless.

So we need to watch ourselves all the time. Meditation helps this - helps us to remain calm, and improves our ability to stay on topic. Its important to avoid getting uptight and guilt filled about this. Often it'll only be after the fact that we catch it. Sometimes the power of the urge to act will be so great that we can't contain it. Other times we'll nip it just as the feeling arises, before we've even had time to attached a rationalised justification for action to it. This feeling arises even upstream of attachment or aversion. It's called 'shenpa' in Tibetan Buddhism.

That's the C1 scene. Working at higher levels of consciousness often as we've been talking about in the 'demons' thread can bring more rapid progress, as can times of illness, suffering and grief that force us into recognition that out beliefs don't stand up. It's in these moments of groundlessness - when we've no beliefs or anything else left or available to cling on to that we get the breakthroughs.

The sense of rawness or emotional unprotectedness that results from partial falling away of the cocoon  (we're not playing from the script any more, but instead are truly connecting with our heart) is the classic sign that something is going on in this regard. Some traditions speak of 'warriorship', precisely because it requires mindfulness, grit and bravery first to see, and then to act correctly.

With enough time (and maybe lives) the intensity of the shenpa fades and eventually we're acting naturally with the Tao or from flow most of the time.

People approaching this state are remarkable to be with. Conversation flows naturally, there's none of the typical sense of it being like a competitive game of tennis. Because they have no agenda to force on the situation you somehow find yourself at ease and likewise not needing to push. Verification in a sense that aggression (lack of love) breeds aggression and vice versa....

All of this is reason why path and spiritual work are so important. Amusing ourselves intellectually with interesting 'spiritual' topics without work is better than nothing but in the end not all that useful...

My wife is a witch and somehow has yet to master the vacuum levitation and supersonic flight part. Instead, I used to fly her around in a Cessna. Strapping a Roomba to each foot sounds like fun. Good clean fun, that is.

While we can look at the causes of the world's issues, if we get involved on their level, we'll simply add to the problem. The end of that trip is, "What profits it a man to gain the world but to lose his own soul?" The solution is  "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all this shall be added unto you."

There's simply no useful way to revolt against the world's problems and their makers, whether overtly or quietly, and yet to not become more involved in the same problems. Phrased slightly differently, Werner Erhard and EST used to teach "What you resist persists. What you experience vanishes." to which we can add a remark by Lamartine, "La sortie plus vite est par." (The fastest way out is through.)

What this means for us is to live with what we are given, and make ourselves free. Then we can return, and from our exterior location, we can assist others to also get free. The problems themselves, however, are created by the natural actions of new souls who are destined to blunder about. We are not stuck with them, however, and we are free to go on with life in places that they do not dominate.

Notice that this does not mean that if we get rid of guns we will end war. That's the "strawberry fields forever" myth. (There are a thousand variations of this theme that involve restrictions in an effort to solve issues of increasing freedom. They are all logically invalid.) What it means is that if we get rid of worrying about what other people are doing, and clean up our own lives, the problem vanishes, and we remain untouched by their actions. Some of them will want war, some will want other things. Let them have what they want and leave them alone if they smell bad or aren't nice to be near. Then, after we've resolved our own issues, we can return to be helpful.

dave

I'm not too sure about that. For example, how would that apply to the Iraqi people? I'm not trying to make this a political post, I use their example because of all that's happened to them. I don't think the majority of them 'wanted' what they were on the receiving end of.

Ignore it and it will go away? From my own experience I have found this not to be the case. I could understand a balance of some kind, but that kind of balance-tipping seems rather tenuous.

Or are there karmic considerations in your estimation?

Desert  

Desert wrote on Jan 29^th, 2008 at 11:37pm:

I'm not too sure about that. For example, how would that apply to the Iraqi people? I'm not trying to make this a political post, I use their example because of all that's happened to them. I don't think the majority of them 'wanted' what they were on the receiving end of. Ignore it and it will go away? From my own experience I have found this not to be the case. I could understand a balance of some kind, but that kind of balance-tipping seems rather tenuous.Or are there karmic considerations in your estimation?  Desert

Desert, I`m not quite understanding whom your post was directed at. However I feel that the Iraqi people are wonderful people and deserve by right of birth to be able to run their country the way they want to run it. From the standpoint of Karmic view, there is a reason why they incarnated in that country in this given epoch. They have a very old culture as all middle east countries have. Ignoring that fact, will change nothing.
Hugs,
Nanner

It was in reference to Dave's last posting, specifically the last paragraph.

:) Pardon my coming in on this, but to take a 'view' based psoition rather than a political one. I don't think it's not necessarily an either/or situation, but rather the usual blending of multiple facets.

The Iraqi people in general are no different to the rest of us and deserve peace.

If everybody concerned (both inside and outside of Iraq) manages to sufficiently raise their consciousness then yes, the problem goes away.

The people in what is now Iraq have been unfortunate to find themselves right in the epicentre of a huge and ongoing centuries long struggle for strategic advantage between the great powers which has seen the people's rights ignored - the 'great game' as it was called in the 1800s.

This mistreatment, the resulting infighting and their response to it has left behind a huge legacy of distrust and enmity between many groups in the country.

Iraq came into existence as a part of this game, and has always been a cobbling together of wildly different cultures, religions and tribal groupings anyway. Who in their instant recourse to violence to sort disputes historically have not exactly been saints themselves either. Which has contributed to the above too.

Meaning that karma, whether old or recent is now playing a large a large part in driving events too.

The ongoing propaganda (war on terror, liberation of the people from a tyrant, WMD etc) we're all subjected to has little or no basis in the reality. I mentioned it before, but "War at the Top of the World' by Eric S. Margolis is a thoroughly readable primer on some of the realities in the whole circle of countries from Iraq across the top of India to China.

They block the access of Russia and China to oil and the Persian Gulf, but the wholesale absence of  compassion on the part of the powers (US, UK, India, Pakistan, China, Russia, Iran) for the peoples of the region is when you read it sobering - and almost as crazy as the way they have for as many years switched sides, manipulated elections, removed rulers and armed and fermented violence to suit their short term advantage.

Thanks Desert for clearifying that for me.  ;) I really didnt know.

And to you Vajra : As Bob Barker would say: "vajra...cooooome oooon down..." (Doesnt anyone remember the good old shows..lol..)

Maybe the fact that multiple persons are "relating to the Iraqi situation" is an indication, that Karma is well on its way, as its course is thank goodness not stopable. Prior to this, everyone kept their nose pretty much in their own backyards.

Ongoing propaganda? Ummm since I live close V - I can`t really say that the neighboring countries had felt the effect of the "proceeding" propaganda prior to the invading of that country. Things dont happen over night. Understand what I mean? Wouldnt we living directly or near neighboring that country have felt the utterance of  the "switched sides, manipulated elections, removed rulers and armed and fermented violence to suit their short term advantage".. Especially if it would have effected the economics of residing european countries.

It had initially been the 9/11 incident that lead europe to believe that there was something fishy going on here in Iraq..Subsiquently a man had gotten "hung" for doing something that other country leaders do "legally"..Bloody hell man, where is the happy medium in any of this?

"Meaning that karma, whether old or recent is now playing a large part in driving events too".
Yes, I understand "but how"?

Hugs,
Nanner

Greetings,

Love HAS to supersede karmic considerations and politics, of course.

Maybe that's why we're asked to love our neighbor--it's so hard to
truly send love throughout the world, present company excepted dearhearts.
Thank goodness for the world wide web and getting to know you all !

Bets  

Bet Bets - you`re the one whom taught me at the beginning of my journey here with you guys, with your kind loving words that a human mind must only "think" love to be able to "send" love. So gal - we are sending love clear across the world with every thought we make. Sort of changed my view of using the air- and phonelines inorder to tell someone "I love them"...Now I send it to everyone with my mind and get far more places and most definately quicker every second of the day..
;)
Nanner

:) Love I guess is the ONLY way to supersede karma. When it truly manifests everything else will fall in place.

I guess Nanner some examples of karma in play in the situation might be:

The region's lost history of tribal warfare and has resulted in a culture of violence which if you're born into you're going to adopt unless you are exceptionally awakened.

The powers adopt a wholly loveless approach where jockeying for advantage is concerned. The people concerned (leaders and populations) likewise didn't invent this - they were born into a society that as a result of history has already decided that this is the way that you do it. (broadly there's a mix of issues but it's about oil and access to the Persian Gulf by the likes of China and Russia, and the implications of this for the rest)

The geographic and energy dimension of the region means that's the stakes are about as high as they could be and so no holds are barred.

This in some cases sucked the powers concerned into arming themselves with nuclear weapons. Those that have such weapons have them in the region. Pakistan almost destituted itself to catch up with India when they tested their weapon. China, the US, the UK, Israel and possibly before too long Iran have nukes too.

The violence in the region (most recently the war in Afghanistan which ousted the Russians, but it goes back for centuries. Alexander the Great fought in the region for broadly similar reasons) sucked lots of  fundamentlist  Islamists there to defend their fellow Muslims ultimately led to extreme anti-Western views  becoming the norm. These people were converted from hairy tribesmen with muskets to a serious force by the years of training and armament they received.

These people and the ideas and capability they have espoused are now being actively exported around the Western world by fundamentalist Islam and related interests who see in it the possibility for the first time in centuries (encouraged by the defeat of the Russians) of the military restoration of an Islamic empire.

I could go on but the point is that there's an incredible coincidence of factors that has come together in the region. Should you have been born there you could be excused for really be wondering in karmic terms what you might have done to find yourself dropped into such a maelstrom. And that's before it's effects on your individual life path.

The point is that you can talk not so much about the effects of karma on life, but rather from the perspective that life is karma. Everything that happens, because without it we wouldn't be here. Good and bad is only a ego distinction.

It's only really been a very big issue for the locals so far, but the pursuit of selfish aims by outside powers without regard for the consequences for the locals has led to an escalation which with the risk of a nuclear weapon getting into the wrong hands means that elements from there now pose a serious threat to the Western world too.

There's far more going on around the central Asian republics, in the Arab world and in Israel and the rest of the middle East that's driven by this situation too that's too complicated to drag in.

It's perhaps not by accident that many of the traditional prophecies point to some sort of Armageddon event starting in the Middle east.

The genie is very close to getting out of the bottle. Perhaps our karma is in this respect ripening too??

Either way the one way to offset it is through wise and  loving behaviours, but I'd not even know where to start as any sign of weakness anywhere could easily destabilise the situation.  The people in the region have suffered so much and for so long that it's hard to imagine what it might take to get a significant number to a point where they were ready to trust enough to reach out to others....

;)  :) Pray explain cooooommmme doooowwnnn....

Hi Desert-  a specific answer -

First - the basic human condition-
In general: We are in the position we are in because we have chosen to be here. If we knew better, we'd do better.
In specific: We're all struggling like the dickens to get out of where we are and go to a better place. If we knew one, we'd go there.

Those who release the three basic negative urges, represented in Tibetan thangkas as the snake, rooster and pig, hatred, pride and greed, then those people cease to have active involvement with events caused by those three urges.

Getting rid of those basic negative urges allows us to stop creating negative karma, because these urges represent the three antitheses to the three existential aspects of reality: energetic process, holomorphic unity, and transcendental awareness. (Note that these are the same terms we encounter in physical models of reality - process, structure and metric relations.)

To cling to a nationality, to the noble fight for Arab self-government against King Hussein or the Ottomans, or the USA, or to cling to any other goal that seems important enough to fight for is an error. It is an error because it implies that society can solve problems of unrest through force.

However, to cling to the noble awareness that by abandonment of divisive tendencies, no matter how seductive, and to develop a lifestyle that is important enough to live for will resolve errors, because it extricates us from social maladaptions.

Society has great value, but only when we support and encourage those aspects that are valuable. If we are willing to take an oppositional stance at any level, we entangle ourselves in the essence of the problem. This is because we cannot involve with anything without contacting it in some manner, and to contact it establishes an interface - like when a curious finger touches hot water - and that interface exerts negative influences on us - the finger feels heat -  so that if we do anything other than withdraw, we will get involved in emotional activities that are essentially painful. - the finger that fails to withdraw will get burned.

The way to create peace and harmony is outside society. It lies solely in the hearts of folks like you and me. Those who have only learned part of this lesson live in places in which others with the same degree of understanding also live. For example, Theravedans live in large societies throughout the East. Mahayanists live in smaller societies in more isolated groups. Militant Christians live in a large conglomerate spreading across North America. Militant Arabs live in the Middle East where their societies have been oppressed for the last 1200 years. Zionists live in a tiny conclave at the end of the Mediterranean due to other oppressions. Hindus occupy the Indian subcontinent, along with similar religious believers such as Jains.

All these groups define themselves as "not the same as our neighbors" for which reason they expect special considerations. It is the distinction that leads to downfall. Once we set up distinctions, we tend to emphasize them and increase our sense of self through enhanced differentiation. That is an error.

Conversely, those groups that identify themselves as inclusive of their neighbors have a tendency to not be clearly visible. One example is the cluster of interested participants at this forum. By not differentiating, we do not feel anger or hatred, but we replace it with love. We do not feel alienated and rejected in a competitive and fearful world, but instead we feel comradship and unity with others. We do not feel that we are unique in our isolated little corner of the world, but rather we understand the universality and transcendence of our path that leads from everywhere to a higher level of everywhere. We do not feel disgust and resistance to the work of expressing positive values, but we embrace the opportunity because, among other things, it's fun.

Given these ideas, you can easily see that the American troops who choose to enlist in the war are those who feel that peace is attainable through war. Those who fight them are similarly certain that by fighting and making war it will be possible to impose peace. Both sides have chosen their world, and both suffer - albeit cooperatively.

An example of karma - the Israeli's were previously under a British Mandate. They objected to this. The resorted to terrorism and planted a number of bombs in the King David Hotel where the British seat of government was lodged. They blew up the hotel, killed lots of people, and also got the British to leave. But the Palestinians saw how effective this was so they copied their esteemed neighbors, and are still doing it, with suicide bombers and by shooting rockets, Neither side is going to win. Both sides will lose. They were individually better off under the British rule, although politically disenfranchised. They gave up personal peace in favor of social change through strife, a choice.

The way out of this is to stop engaging in negative activities. Like holding a tiger's tail, this has to be done with great care and only by degrees that allow everything to remain stable. Those who stop engaging in negative activities stop creating negative karma and cease to have negative experiences, even though surrounded by all manner of ungodly chaos. The state of freedom from negative activities is called "satchitananda" by Buddhists and Hindus, and is the basic state of mature participation in the world.  It is available to everyone, and, in fact, most of the people on this forum live in this state to a very large degree.

These ideas are radically unpopular in many circles. They initially were promulgated by the beatnicks and hippies from the late '40s through the '70s. LSD emphasized the truth of these ideas (usually by sending those who favored negativity to a hellish experience)  and prompted a strong counter-culture that disowned competitive and violent social values and norms and began to replace them with more honest values. The concept "What goes around comes around" entered our society in the '60s. However, even though these are new values to us, there are many small communities throughout the world that live by pro-active positive values as opposed to negatve ones. In essence, these ideas are the source of all revolutions. Civil warfare and the reign of terror that follows it are the reasons that revolutions don't work. Progress only occurs in the aftermath when people realize collectively how terrible things were, and how stupid it was to cause them to be terrible, and how much better to cooperate and create, support and understand one another.

dave

:) Nice, and spot on!

As you say Dave it's not easy to roll this stuff out. It'd sad the way that to promote this sort of thinking can generate the most ferocious anger (e.g. you're letting the side down), or in it's being read as weakness leading to attempts to take advantage.

What you're actually doing is promoting a view that conflicts with the power and aggression based values of society - values long since decided by people who think violence can deliver peace.

Overdo it, or be unskillful and you can end up dead or badly damaged, and cause so much trouble.

The sad thing though is that as above if those making decisions and acting at all levels tailor their responses to fit with what the culture demands we end up with a collective version of the ego made goldfish bowl that we all as individuals have to transcend. i.e. Fail to act and nothing changes.

This is why courage is emphasised so much in spiritual traditions.

Culture is an incredibly powerful straightjacket, but luckily as our earlier discussion I guess we can rely on our natural knowing - that all we have to do is to work to drop the ego/raise our consciousness and we will increasingly do right naturally. If you're meant to be doing it you will be...


This perhaps one reason why Buddhism sees wisdom as so closely aligned with compassion in 'prajna' or the higher intuitive wisdom....

Hello Nanna,

Religion and wrong reading of the bible are definite causes, but there is also philosophy.

None if them in my view is the root cause of war etc. It is all about power and pride dear. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

alan    

I'd tend to take the view of many traditions that war is ultimately rooted in selfishness and/or lack of wisdom - or ego Alan.

I guess power corrupts because those that wield it can't resist using it for personal gain rather than the good of the people who have trusted them with it, or because they unwisely still hold the view that you can make peace or otherwise do good through war.

Another take on the question of awakening and development of insight that's the subject of this thread. Selfish behaviours come out of fear that there's not enough to go around.

Another way of characterising the spiritual path described earlier in the thread is to say that it's a process whereby we first find the courage to break out of the cocoon of our limiting and selective beliefs and perception to face our fears. Having faced the fears we with time go on to develop equanimity - the ability to face previously scary issues without fear. So that eventually with realisation we become fearless....