I just finished reading book 4.  I am very impressed and see no reason to doubt much of anything reported.

It happens that the subject for this week's Christian Science Bible Lesson is Life.  Here are some citations from the Christian Science Textbook on Life:

Life is deathless. Life is the origin and ultimate of man, never attainable through death, but gained by walking in the pathway of Truth both before and after that which is called death.  487-3

One moment of divine consciousness, or the spiritual understanding of Life and Love, is a foretaste of eternity. This exalted view, obtained and retained when the Science of being is understood, would bridge over with life discerned spiritually the interval of death, and man would be in the full consciousness of his immortality and eternal harmony, where sin, sickness, and death are unknown. Time is a mortal thought, the divisor of which is the solar year.   598-23

Perfect and infinite Mind enthroned is heaven. The evil beliefs which originate in mortals are hell.   266-25

Man is the idea of Spirit; he reflects the beatific presence, illuming the universe with light. Man is deathless, spiritual. He is above sin or frailty. He does not cross the barriers of time into the vast forever of Life, but he coexists with God and the universe.   266-27

As I thought about this after finishing book 4, it occurred to me that the knowledge and ability to bring about Spiritual Healing through silent prayer as Christian Scientists do is something that could be easily adopted by those here.  

The example of the other group intelligence that Moen reported which did not know PUL and were blown away by it, but then adopted it and were later found passing it along to others seems analogous.

I would invite everyone to take a look at Christian Science and talk to those who have been healed by it.  The elevation of thought that accompanies most healings is truly a taste of level 27 and PUL.  The discordant situation that existed is changed instantly into perfect normalcy in many instances, and this new status is easily verified by standard medical technology.  

This happens because all discordant conditions are only mortal beliefs projected on the belief of a physical body.  You don't have to understand the belief in order to be free of it, and an experienced Practitioner can remove it by knowing and understanding the Truth of Being.

As the textbook states on page 14:  Become conscious for a single moment that Life and intelligence are purely spiritual,--neither in nor of matter,--and the body will then utter no complaints. If suffering from a belief in sickness, you will find yourself suddenly well.

It is easy to test Christian Science.  If you have a problem, get a copy of the monthly Christian Science Journal from any Reading Room and select a Practitioner from the list in the back.  Discuss your situation with the Practitioner and let the Practitioner's silent prayer help you decide on a course of action and work to heal the situation.  See what happens.

You have nothing to lose but your problems.

Hi Rei-
Two thoughts come immediately to mind. The first is that this is essentially the same belief system as we find in Hindu and Buddhist philosophy, and that it is hinted at by most modern metaphysicians.  For example, the idea of being a "co-creator with God" is found in Cayce as his central theme.  The idea of silent prayer being a healing modality has been experimentally verified. It scares hell out of the orthodox community -  which might be one reason that people in regressions to the spirit world are unable to find hell even when they go looking for it  ;-)

The other is a problem that I've been having since adopting the idea that we are essentially nothing but an fraction of the global image projected through the lens of God's Mind. The idea makes sense, and can be reduced to formal logical symbolism and rigorously examined. The trouble is that living in the world is so seductive. And, at least in my own case, my psychic abilities are pretty marginal, That means that I'm required to approach reality through rational induction and analysis, which is a bit awkward, since analysis of terms maps the space, but fails to take me there - In the same way I could draw a map of Bruxelles, but that doesn't take me there, nor does it deal with the seeming incompatibility of the feelings of living, as opposed to the cosmic situation under which they occur.

The essential problem is well expressed by the limerick-

"There was a faith-healer named Beale,
Who said, "Although pain is not real,
When I sit on a pin,
And the point punctures in,
I dislike what I fancy I feel."  :-)

I'm sure you've encountered this attitude before. Its pretty fundamental. I'm interested in the way that Christian Science would handle it.

dave

its exciting to me to compare thought systems and religions the one to the other. I'm glad you took the time to post this Rei as it heartens me to learn of other groups, not just us here, are working in the healing areas. I look for the commonalities as you do rather than the noncommonalities, and Dave, that is mental, as opposed to purely psychic "knowing."
so I'm with Dave too. sometimes I think I'm TOO mental, but mix the mental with passion and I think Dave has passion to know also, and I'm not just talking about Dave or me, or Rei, I'm thinking all the time global concepts. so let's not put psychic on a pedestal please.

We do have to work the mental. hard. Rei is talking the same thing about how we project unto the body our various error beliefs about who and what we are; we are spiritual beings, not physical beings, but we utilize our body as a mirror of our minds.
feel sick? u just had a sick thought. u can change your thoughts.
a sick thought is just a thought that is not true about yourself.

I'm glad these Science of Mind people are actually putting their foot where their mouth is! to be offering a silent prayer is to be knowing the truth of the individual where perhaps they have forgotten the truth.
I am usually too independent to ask anyone for help, yet I have found at times I was unable to heal myself of something. I called upon friends, or even had to go have a tooth pulled, all the while a nonphysical dentist was yelling at me, to get me to ask for help.
sort of funny actually, my independence might be false pride!
but I'm still alive in body, so that must be a good thing..despite its hard to ask someone for help.
I say it's ok to ask for help with a condition. It can change in a moment. the healing can be instant, it can take a few days sometimes but you know you are healing.

If we look to the bible it says "where two or more of you are gathered in my name, I am there."
it didn't say go sit on an island and I'll be there shortly.  ;D   so I would go to a science of mind practitoner in a new york minute if there was something I couldn't handle on my own through my own silent prayer/affirmation/faith.
theres something about active PUL displaying itself between the relationship of healer/healee, and theres just not enough PUL in this world to make the shift in consciousness a thing the media will talk about.

(no news is good news)  but I feel we are getting there slowly but surely so excuse me my ramblings but I got nothing better to do than watch the skies and yak and once in a while, even here, I view the healings taking place and even get to participate.

love, alysia

Thanks Dave.  Jesus said something to the effect of Don't tempt God, which Christian Scientists take to mean if you are setting on a pin you should remove yourself from it before trying to heal it with prayer.  Matt 4:7.

The resistance to spiritual healing IMHO is the very human resistance to change.  People are handling whatever life deals them, and they both fear and resist trying anything new.  The people who read this website are already well advanced from the mass of humanity in both desire to understand and willingness to consider ideas.

I think I was drawn to this website to both enlarge my understanding of the ELS and all its implications, and to bring the message of Christian Science to people who are likely to understand it.

Physical healing was a very big part of early Christianity.  It was what really forced people to accept that there was something new and different, and it still works that way today.  

I had known a number of Christian Scientists for years before the complete physical breakdown that led me to ask for help from one of them.  Another Christian Scientist employee had given me a copy of the Textbook, but I had scanned it and passed it off as just a self-help book with a religious tone.  

When I experienced the incredible elevation of thought that was part of the healing, I was at a new place in my thought.  There was the possibility of refusing to believe it, but the removal of the health crisis, and the memory of the sense of peace was so overwhelming, that I was able to resist the temptation to rationalize it and started studying Christian Science.  

It took a long time to gain an understanding of what Christian Scientists mean when they say "There is no matter".  Now I can speak from a totally new perspective, having moved "Past faith to understanding" as the Textbook says.

There is a whole world of people who follow it, and a large enterprise that is over 100 years old publishing the articles and observations of those who practice it.  They truly live "In the world but not of it" and enjoy life to the fullest.  I had no idea what was available until I got into it.  It was hidden in plain sight.

As God is quoted as saying in Deuteronomy:  "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil"  snip  "Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live".  Deut 15.

Funny this thread came up.
Last night when Mrs Dood came home she was on 'her' computer.
We both have 'our' computers and we sit pretty much back to back.

She goes through her things she likes to read and unwind from work then she will go into her school work. (She is getting her Masters in Nursing)

She had this video on and it was interesting.
We both said: "What is he saying?  Nothing actually..."

Watch and you be the judge: http://defamer.com/344987/the-tom-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientologists-dont-want-you-to-see

I keep thinking of Cartman from South Park (Fantastic show by the way) saying: " I am the Authority..." haha! :D

EDIT: By the way, I really do not care if Tom Cruise or anyone wants to join/believe whatever they want.  That is their life...not mine.  Just do not push your dogma on me...

Scientology and Christian Science are completely unrelated.  

Christian Science is a Bible based Christian Church, with real church buildings, where people go to Sunday and Wednesday night Services.

Here is a picture of my church:  http://www.csvincennes.org/index.htm

It was founded by Mary Baker Eddy in the late 1800's after the following revelation:

Mary Patterson, later Mary Baker Eddy, had fallen on the winter ice and been injured severely.  Lying in bed ,helpless and in pain, she read the account of one of Jesus’ healings.  As she read, a flood of light poured into her thought, a sudden insight (as it seemed to her) into the heart of true being.  Put in terms closer to her own, it was a revelation of the spiritual perfection of the universe as it exists in the mind of God – or, to use her later terminology, the Mind that is God.  It was, in short, a new view of reality, to be recognized at the same time as the very kingdom of God, preached and practiced by Jesus, the kingdom within made manifest in the outward form of healing. … As this dawned on her … she rose from her bed completely healed.  …  Some years later she summed up in a single sentence what for her was the real miracle:  “That short experience included a glimpse of the great fact that I have since tried to make plain to others, namely, Life in and of Spirit; this life being the sole reality of existence”.

One of the biggest differences between the two beliefs AFAIK is that if someone told a Christian Scientist to give them all his money, he would think they had a mental condition that needed to be healed.

I think it would be good here to talk about healings people have had which are outside of the norm, and I also have this religious streak running through my nature which made me well suited to any thought system which might include the correct interpretation of the bible; such correct interpretation would have to resonate in my being. Upon my body, like bells going off, or a simple gut feeling.
The gut feeling is located in the body. It's called the solar plexus, and is known where personal self empowerment thoughts lodge.

In other words feelings, emotions reside there about whether some information you are receiving is true for your use or not. I call it a thud feeling when some info comes in which is going to take me some time to adjust to. Like a shock it might seem. so shocks take awhile to come to terms with.

Also, the positive nature to the gut feelings is that u can also pick up PUL in the gut. PUL energy will extend up to the crown chakra also, and PUL is also related to getting correct info, as it expands itself into the aura field. we all have an aura surrounding the body. It is the energy of your thoughts and is more in movement than the cellular mass.

getting off track  :) I would like to invite others to tell of any healings they got which seemed like a miracle to them.

Heres one I'll start.   couple of years ago I was just finishing up my book in Roswell where I'd holed up for 3 years, my only occupation there was to get that thing written and I was at it day and night as a cleansing process actually.
well some of my vertabrae got out of whack from the long hours of sitting at the puter.
when I wasn't writing the book Id take a break by coming here, or another forum I socialized on. A forum member here I met by the name of Ric.
He started telling me he could hear his guide talk to him. He told me the whole story. Pretty soon I asked him to join the other forum too, as it's not often you meet someone can actually "hear" their guides talk to them.

I have met a few though, and I am one who hears guides, we can also call them helpers and they often will send messages into the subconscious where the gut feeling comes into play that it's true and, useful info concerning yourself.

I had asked for help with the book as I wandered in my mind, off topic. I think I perhaps got more help than I asked for which just means to me I developed a perpetual feeling of gratitude for these helpers who came and went, and showed me practical things too, like a leaky faucet was happening in my rental house, where I was busy with the book, I hadn't had time to check on the other house. I saw the guides in my mind. one was a lady who pointed to the leak. the other a man instructed her how to place that image in my mind.

oh dear off track....as I was saying before I interrupted myself... :) I was in pain and didn't know why my back hurt so bad. I crawled up to my chair to type some more, sort of trying to laugh it off because I'm the silly one. I was in denial anything was wrong.
a few days of crawling around the house went by and pretty soon I was laughing because this was really DUMB!! I emailed Ric for help.
I didn't want to bother him with my problems and I could only type while on my knees on the floor before I would fall asleep on the floor.
He did get the message from the few words I typed. I told him I couldn't finish my book like this, to please heal me as I needed him.

I think this was all set up by our higher selves, because Ric discovered he could heal!
He worked on my back while he was in Tennessee and I was in New Mexico.
He said a Chinese helper, nonphysical showed him the two vertebrae which had slipped out of place. he showed him where to "pop" them back in place.

During the night I jumped..I mean I felt my body jump as the vertabrae went back into place! I kept on sleeping, I felt the relief, but I kept sleeping like a baby.

the next morning I was walking around as normal, just a little soreness was there around the vertebrae to let me know everytime a bone rubs on something, when it's out of place, thats what makes it feel sore. the soreness went away after a few days and dear ric told me not to lift anything heavy  ::)  I knew that! haha!

My gratitude increased for people who give of themselves this way to others. I wrote his name down in my book of heaven. when I get home, I'm going to tell everyone about Ric.

Not only that, the vertebrae has stayed in place to this very day and I have no reason to believe they will pop out again. Later, I went on the internet to look at a drawing of the back bones...Ric and the chinese helper had pinpointed the exact locations of the two that had slipped, they had numbers, like 2 and 4, and according to the diagram that was exactly where the pain was coming from.

love, alysia

HI,

I have real problem with Christian Science dogma. First Jesus did not use any scientific approach but preached to real people with real problems. We are not some figment in the cosmic mind. The bulled that killed JFK and Martin Luther King Jnr. were real and no amount of correct thinking by them could have prevented these real material bullets blowing out their real physical brains.

You quote healing by this approach and I do not discount the truth of this at all. Any method of positive thinking can get the same result.

In  MATERIAL REALM we now exist in "MATTER" is real and spiritual and ethereal are mist like unrealities

I have had a personal tragic story of my cousin whose parents were Christian Scientist, who let there desperately sick beloved daughter progressively worsen and in an unspeakably horrible manner before their very eyes. My then father intervened and brought in a competent doctor. The horrified doctor’s comments on her tragic deathbed were. "Why do you contact me now on her death bed it is too late to do anything?” “I have never seen to see such appalling, neglect lack of parental love and care in all my life as a doctor. He then stormed out with tears of suppressed anger.

She died later in an appalingly horrible way due to this unforgivable neglect by her mislead parents. He name was Shirley a lovely girl of sixteen who would have been seventy-five today if she had lived. I never forgot her lovely face and named my eldest daughter after her.
alan

Eddie called God a principle then so are we just mindless principles like him (just rules in the cosmic soup, I dont buy into this)

"Divine Principle never pardons our sins or mistakes till the are corrected..."
Science and Health, p. 11, line 12

BELOW IS CHRISTIAN SCIENCE DOGMA WHICH I REJECT

THE BIBLE

"The decisions by the vote of Church Councils...the manifest mistakes in the ancient versions, the thirty thousand deferent reading in the Old Testament, and the three hundred thousand in the New...these facts show how a mortal and material sense stole into the divine record, with its own hue darkening to some extent, the inspired pages."
Science and Health, p. 138 line 15


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAJOR DOCTRINAL ISSUES

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mary Baker Eddy claimed that she used the Bible as her text book, however her teachings bear no relation to the reality of Biblical doctrines. Like her belief in the non-existence of the material world, her claim that she believed the Bible, is also a non-existent reality. There is no doctrine or teaching in Christian Science that has not denied or changed every doctrine in the Bible.

There is a saying that Grape Nuts Cereal™, which is neither grapes or nuts, is like Christian Science, which is neither Christian or science. Christian Science claims to be Christian, but denies every teaching about Jesus Christ found in the Bible, including His own words about Himself. Christian Science claims to be science, but denies the reality of matter and the universe, therefore it makes the scientific method impossible to use.

The greatest condemnation of Christian Science is in its denial of the character of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and its refusal to accept the teaching of the Bible as authoritative.

The second greatest condemnation of Christian Science is in the hypocrisy of its founder, Mary Baker Eddy, who, although claiming to believe what she taught, did not practice the realities of her religion and instead of exalting herself from the bondage of the "mortal mind", instead, continued her life with no change in her approach to the "non-existent" material world.

She claimed that food was an illusion, but she never failed to eat.
She claimed the material world was an illusion, but she never failed to breathe the air around her until she breathed her last at death.
She claimed the material world was an illusion, but she never failed to protect herself from the cold and seek shelter in winter.
She claimed the material world was an illusion, but she wore clothes, rode in a car and lived in a house.
She claimed the material world was an illusion, but under her direction, her religious organization constructed church buildings.
She claimed that illness and disease were an illusion, but she wore glasses to correct her faulty vision.
She claimed disease did not exist but had a cold.
She claimed to have been cured of her mental disorders but in later life was mentally incapacitated in her endeavors.
She claimed marriage is "synonymous with legalized lust", (although lust was a product of the mortal mind and does not exist), but she was married four times.
She claimed the material world did not exist, but she did not fail to collect the money from her religious organization and died a millionaire.
She claimed the material world did not exist, but she wrote books for eyes to read and gave lectures for ears to hear.
She claimed that the sexual union did not produce children, which were actually produced by some mental generation, but when one of her followers claimed to have had an immaculate conception, Mrs. Eddy denied the claim of the woman.
She claimed that God is all, in all and all was from God, but she could not explain the origin of the "mortal mind" of man with all of its inherent errors.
She claimed that death did not exist, but that certain types of persons should be executed:Christian Science teaches that a maliciously disposed person can bring the power and influence of his or her mind to so bear upon another as to cause "arsenical poison in the blood of the stomach." To cause, in fact, any form of sickness and even the most terrible of deaths. This is what Mrs. Eddy calls "malicious animal magnetism." She says: "One of the greatest crimes practiced in, or known to, the ages is mental assassination." She further declares: "Persons who murder by it should be hung or electrocuted. The time has come for instructing human justice so that those secret criminals shall tumble before the Omnipotent finger, who will point them out to the human executioner." (Christian Science Journal, February 1889) In other words, Mary Baker Eddy taught that actually, through malicious animal magnetism, you can put a hex on somebody and kill him. Mrs. Eddy was obdurate in her belief that a host of mental assassins fell upon her lamented husband, Mr. Eddy, and wrought his death. Said one of her closest disciples: "Who can, with authority, deny Mrs. Eddy's statement that poison, mentally administered, killed her husband?" In Mrs. Eddy's mind there was no doubt. "My husband's death was caused by malicious mesmerism."

The Word Of God And Christian Science, Dr. John F. MacArthur, Sr., p. 15
The argument by Mrs. Eddy's disciple is the same as that postulated by the claims of many different groups and beliefs. It is a very popular argument among those who advocate conspiracy theories in the deaths of presidents, kings and other public figures. They point the figure at the person who disagrees with their statement and demand that proof be provided that the occurrence did not happen. This is entirely wrong, because the negative cannot be proved. The burden of proof belongs to the proponent of the theory, in this case with Mrs. Eddy and her disciple. They provided no proof, but, instead, substituted a claimed "revelation" of words for facts. Any person can claim a revelation and any person can make any statement, but the proof is in the authentication of the claim, which Christian Science has not provided.


She claimed that Christian Science could liberate man from the illusion of death, just like she claimed happened to Jesus Christ, but she died and was buried just like every other human being in history.

The realities of the Christian Science belief structure rely on the supposed un-reality of everything that humanity claims that is. In this belief structure is the false foundation that makes it impossible to live in accord with those beliefs. It is impossible to live as if everything is an illusion, and in that impossibility is the impossibility that anyone could ever accept those beliefs to the point of demonstrating the effects of those beliefs. No Christian Science practitioner has ever overcome the "mortal material sense" and disappeared into the realm of being. All Christian Scientists have or will die. Mrs. Eddy, even with all her claims, could not overcome death herself. The Bible speaks for itself, refuting everything taught by Christian Science. Everything that is taught in Christian Science came from the mind of Mrs. Eddy and not from the pages of the Bible.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment...
The Holy Bible, Hebrews 9:27 (NAS)

GODHEAD
God is a spiritual being, not a principle as claimed by Christian Science.

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
The Holy Bible, The Words Of Jesus Christ, John 4:23-24 (NAS)

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
The Holy Bible, Exodus 3:14 (NAS)

In the above verse, God speaks to Moses, indicating he recognized that Moses had a body and physical senses, and God also commanded Moses to speak to Israel, indicating that He recognized that they also had bodies and faculties of a physical nature. God is a Being of Spirit, speaking words to Moses. God is not an idea or a principle, but a Being Who Is, has a definite nature, personality and exerts authority over human beings.

MAN
Contrary to the claims of Mrs. Eddy that the physical does not exist, man is a physical being, not without substance and not an ephemeral expression of the "Divine Principle". Man has a duality of nature, being both of substance and of spirit. The substance being temporary in its current state, and the spiritual being everlasting.

The God said, "Let Us made man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the bids of the sky and over the cattle and over the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps o the earth."
The Holy Bible, Genesis 2:26 (NAS)

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The Holy Bible, Genesis 2:7

The God Who Is, creates the physical body of man and, notes that all that is physical was created prior to the creation of man, including: fish, birds, living things on the earth, the earth itself and the heavens above the earth. The physical is not an illusion of man's mortal mind, but the creation of the God Who Is and created before man ever came into being as a living soul. (Genesis 2:26- 27; 2:7)

"I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My out stretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight."
The Holy Bible, Jeremiah 27:5 (NAS)

Know that the Lord Himself is God; It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.
The Holy Bible, Psalm 100:3 (NAS)

Alan,

A lot of what you posted is just a repeat of words opponents put in her mouth 100 years ago.

But that misses the point - The reason she called her discovery Science is that it could be demonstrated.  The demonstration is the actual experience of seeing a situation change from some diseased condition to perfect normalcy.  Not only does it change by all physical measurements, but the change is almost always accompanied by a wonderful sense of peace and elevated thought.  

When I came across the Afterlife site and read Moen's books I saw the similarities with what he reported in level 27 and PUL with what I had learned in Christian Science.  I think both are correct, and I think those who are interested in what Moen and Monroe have shown us might also be interested in addressing their problems spiritually thru CS.  

All Christians pray, but Christian Scientists do it just a little differently, and get dramatically greater results.  They have created a organized structure where people who can demonstrate consistent healing through silent prayer can be recognized and make their living doing it.

Christian Science teaches that if you don't see spiritual healing from your prayer, and others prayer for you, the prayer will still lead you to whatever other method is best suited to deal with your problem.  This is very uncultish IMHO.

My message is that here is something else you can use to deal with the problems encountered in this earthly existence.  It has a further payoff in that it seems to create a belief system in your thought that will let you skip the lower levels described by Moen and Monroe and move directly to 27 or higher when you leave here.

That seems like a good thing.

RAI ,

I was not referring to sincere Christian Scientists (although they could all be sincerely wrong)

I was referring to Mary Baker Eddie herself

IF SHE TALKED THE TALK SHE SHOULD HAVE WALKED THE WALK

And what about the post on my Cousin Shirley’s horrible death due to this belief

alan

Alan,

I recommend you read the actual textbook and then get back to me.

She never claimed she would stay alive in this experience, only that she and all of us would still be alive (as our true spiritual existence) when we departed it.

I don't know anything about Shirley but I hope she is at level 27 or higher today.  If not maybe you can use Moen's techniques to spring her from where she is stuck.

Dick

Alan,

As I thought about all the stuff you posted about Mrs. Eddy, I realized what she had to contend with while she was establishing the Christian Science Church.

Jesus was the leader in spiritual healing, and also stirred up a lot of opposition as this passage from Luke describes:

6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
11 And they were filled with madness; and communed one with another what they might do to Jesus.

Jesus had to contend with the stifling literalism that the Jewish establishment had forced onto religous practice, the Politically Correct thinking of its day.  Mrs. Eddy had to contend with the wrath directed at someone who would suggest that spiritual healing was even possible at all.

Thank God for the First Amendment.

The truth is in the demonstration.  It really works.

REI

What on earth made you think my beloved passed over cousin is stuck out there somewhere? She is now in heavely realms existing with the everlating father.

Dont try and equate Mary bakker Eddie, with incarnated divine Lord Jesus Christ

Read the account about me cousin Shirely and give me an adquate reply

I have had a personal tragic story of my cousin whose parents were Christian Scientist, who let there desperately sick beloved daughter progressively worsen and in an unspeakably horrible manner before their very eyes. My then father intervened and brought in a competent doctor. The horrified doctor’s comments on her tragic deathbed were. "Why do you contact me now on her death bed it is too late to do anything?” “I have never seen to see such appalling, neglect lack of parental love and care in all my life as a doctor. He then stormed out with tears of suppressed anger.

She died later in an appalingly horrible way due to this unforgivable neglect by her mislead parents. He name was Shirley a lovely girl of sixteen who would have been seventy-five today if she had lived. I never forgot her lovely face and named my eldest daughter after her.
alan

Hey, Alan,

You're blinding me...

All those bright yellow highlighted areas feel like you're shouting.

I'm sorry about your cousin. That's just terribly sad. It seems that most of us here have had tragic losses at one time or another. Talking about these things heightens our emotions, doesn't it?

love, blink

Thanks Rei-
A little epiphany seems to have occurred here - See how this sounds to you.

I have a waking life and a sleeping life. I wake, eat, work, and then very tired to bed. I sleep, dream, act out my dream world activities until very tired of dreaming, I wake. The question is where we place validity.

If everything is a "dream", which I've long agreed on a logical basis, then that does not liberate me from dreaming it.  If I dream of a painful pinprick, it still hurts. So we go through the motions of whatever it is we're doing. That neither makes it real, nor unreal. It's simply what we have to do because of the way we encounter the moment.

Beyond this we have choices - most of which we do not see. It is in the ability to choose that we discover a way out of this activity sequence, and into some other. MBE didn't stop eating, walking around, and so on because those activities are innate to the way we're presented to the world - whether or not we can go beyond them later. What she did was discover that all she needed to do was to focus her intention and understanding, in her case gained through bible study and discussions, and she could exercise choices that are invisible to others because they lack the required belief system and flexibility to observe them.

Thus, as I interpret it, MBE effectively found a way to interact with the decisions that were made to bring her into the world, and to keep on changing her circumstances by further decisions.

If this is, in fact, the interpretation that you find valid, then what is presented here is the next step beyond Buddhism's remark that all is the product of Mind. The next step is to think of a better world, with intention. It's not going to take us to Nirvana, or Heaven, but it makes this life accessible to us so that we can more easily find our way.

How am I doing?

dave

Dear Blink,

By reading, what I posted about Shirley should make you realize why I am appalled by this belief and reject it with the distain I think it deserves.  

I did not bring up this subject and feel the forum should veer away from religious dogma. I see this thread as a form of proselytism, something I abode.

alan

That's interesting, Alan, because sometimes I have felt that you are doing something similar at times by talking about your own personal beliefs about God. This thread doesn't seem so different to me.

My grandmother who is in her nineties is a Christian Scientist and has hardly been sick a day in her life, so I tend to think that there can be some truth there. However, no one should suffer as your cousin did, and I understand why you would be angry about it.

Anyway, I like bright colors and everything, but it just seemed a little strong to me, so nothing personal meant by it, of course.  

Love on 'ya.

blink :)

>:(
>:( >:(
Dave,

MBE was completely disinterested in world affairs, feeding the poor, charity and her so-called love was non-existent. As a child I was subjected to this dogma and all they spoke about in their meetings where healings of sickness, disease on and on and on. Of course that was, sixty years ago and much might have changed in that organization since then.

Shirley my cousins dying words to her Christian Science mother were.  “Listen to Jesus, not MBE” She became bloated and from a small sixteen year old beautiful girl who weighed about eighty pounds when healthy, became an enormous grotesque figure to awful to look upon. “A victim of this awful dogma’ She finally reached a weight of about two hundred and twenty pounds of access water due to failing kidneys and heart, before her parents non seeing blind eyes.. They drained of gallons of water from her dead body so that they could prepare her for burial
'Thus my excessive previous highlights'

ALAN

its just a place to share Alan. I don't think its wise to blame an entire established religion, for one person's death.
if you were to do that, first you'd have to research all the people who had success with healing through this particular dogma, as you called it, and then you'd have to find all the cases which did not meet success. then you'd have to compare the two figures before declaring it a worthless dogma.

to support what I say, Rei explains the silent prayer may not always heal the particular ailment being asked for...but the prayer will yield SOME positive result as no prayer I believe is ever a wasted prayer.
all the more reason, we go around here, and you want to make sure you don't put all your eggs in one basket...
it is a world where we have accepted murphys law; anything that can go wrong most certainly could..its how we deal with it that counts, whether we can learn from the sufferings of others, and who knows really all the facts in any given moment about anything at all?

nice to be able to observe and even change one's mind occassionally about something due to more facts. I feel you are correct, your relative does not suffer any more, and that there were reasons for this tragic thing to occur, but they have been lifted off her.

but not lifted off of yourself. she wishes you not to suffer for her. she is fine.

my opinion. and the yellow is irritating I agree. calm down.

reading your next post I see we are getting graphic. I will say this about any physical condition, that god also will work through many fine medical science as well, and this sounds like a case of blind faith when her life may have spared just to untilize a little technology instead..when it comes to survival around here, we must not let ourselves there is only one way to get things done, we close the door to help that is readily available, because it simply is not working in some instances.

still these cases are not the norm, otherwise the religion would have folded up and gone bye bye a long time ago. it is still a useful thing to be looking at and studying to extract any useful ideas from and not be so stubborn, not to recognize we do have medical answers to prayers also.

I know little about Christian Science, so I can't say much about it; however, I can't say I agree the with principle that a person can't refer to regular medical help, because such lack of faith will intefere with the healing process. I believe things need to be more balanced than that. Do people really believe that the divine powers that be won't work with us because we consider whether modern medicine might have something to offer? I'm all for considering the connection of body, mind and spirit, but this doesn't mean that conventional medical means never apply.

Regarding what the truth of Jesus Christ is, the other night I meditated and asked, and was told, "The Biblical story of the lamb is mostly correct." Some people might wonder about the usage of the word "mostly." My feeling is that because of how the words and stories of Jesus were passed by word of mouth, and because of translation issues, some of the truth might had been lost. But for the "most" part the Bible is accurate when it speaks about Jesus Christ.

If a person wants to know what Christ is actually about, perhaps they should pray to God and Christ and ask for an answer, rather than simply accepting what other people have to say. Otherwise, they might end up following something such as ACIM.

and if they end up following something as ACIM? what would happen then R?  :-*

some airy fairy like me might happen? I really like what ACIM did for me.

the more you oppose the concepts therein, I will talk about what ACIM has done for me, out of loyalty for him I follow.

but it is just beliefs and I allow you your expression totally, as I assume you grant me the same request. thank you, continue if u wish. I'm ready. ;)

Alan-
Thanks for pointing out another "painful pin" aspect of healing through faith and belief.  It is precisely this problem that I'd like to master.

I'm very much aware, especially through my practice as a hypnotherapist, that beliefs defne reality. This is why we are subject to aberrations when we are confused - we respond randomly until something gets "stuck" and we wind up in a belief system that defines our immediate world.

But there's much more going on. There are numerous cases of people being healed through belief alone. The so-called "placebo effect" provides cures of everything from constipation to the common cold at a reliably constant 15% rate. This is very well documented. There are also the extraordinary cases in which a person believes that they're getting a miracle drug, and they go into remission with things like splanchnic cancer.

Let's look only at placebo effect, and leave the rest for a moment. How can I personally use placebo effect to handle 15% of my ailments? If I could solve that question, one out of six of my present annoyances would vanish. For other folks, this is faith in a chemical. For me, faith alone is what I'd like to evoke.

Now, granted that placebo effect is very real, what can we do to extend that effect to heal more serious illnesses?

This is the essential question I have, and I don't see it as having anything at all to do with any specific belief system or organized group. The fact that Science of Mind and Christian Science seem to do this more effectively than I do today is no reason to suggest that they do it better or worse than Buddhists, who have said the same thing for over 2500 years, or Edgar Cayce, or Jesus, or any of the other millions of souls who attempt to bring us better versions of the truth. The specific technique is free of association with any organization and merits study in and of itself. I think that Rei has brought us an interesting opportunity. That she learned it through Christian Science seems to me to be at least as good as going to college and learning it in a math class. Better maybe! :-)

dave

Alysia:

Perhaps you might be more willing to see that there are misleading sources of information. The extent to which you want to defend "everything," no matter what kind of evidence a person provides, is hard to understand. You often do so with ACIM based apologetics.

I find it odd that Christ would share as many words as he supposedly does in ACIM, and make no mention about the unfriendly spirits that exist.

Consider what Robert Monroe wrote in his book Ultimate Journey. He was concerned about unfriendly influences. The INSPEC told him that they do exist. Some evolved differently than us and don't think much of us. Some have experience being human. They can influence people. They aren't smarter than us, but they have a lot of experience (I don't remember Robert's exact words). Perhaps one of the ways they use their experience is to influence people who won't seriously consider the validity of the sources they read, and instead come up with a everything is hip approach.

Isn't it possible that some of the sources you so staunchly defend, might be the negative influences Robert wrote about, or somebody who is influenced by negative influences? If a person notices that a source is passing out misleading information, should this person just keep his or her mouth shut and say nothing, so he or she will appear loving to others? If such a person does keep his or her mouth shut, doesn't this make it easier for the deceptive sources that exist to mislead others? Shouldn't somebody stand up to them?

P.S. to my last post. Perhaps God's help sometimes shows up in the form of a Medical doctor.




LaffingRain wrote on Jan 18^th, 2008 at 4:13pm:

and if they end up following something as ACIM? what would happen then R?  :-* some airy fairy like me might happen? I really like what ACIM did for me. the more you oppose the concepts therein, I will talk about what ACIM has done for me, out of loyalty for him I follow. but it is just beliefs and I allow you your expression totally, as I assume you grant me the same request. thank you, continue if u wish. I'm ready. ;)

Of course negative influences exist. We encounter them on the forum. We encounter them in the BSTs that keep souls stuck. We encounter thm in the bardos through which "we are tossed here and there by winds of karma". And we encounter them in our own minds.

Experience teaches that negativity exists ither through delusion and ignorance, or through fear. We have a pretty savvy population here, so my vote is fear.

The next question is how to handle them. I propose to accept them as a starting point that validly reflects what people think and feel. Then if I can help make them feel better, I am willing to work at it.

Fearful people can only criticize. Tough. That keeps them stuck.

dave

Dave:

Can't a person question questionable sources without being a scardy cat? Is ignoring what's out there and doing nothing, the same thing as being brave?


dave_a_mbs wrote on Jan 18^th, 2008 at 5:00pm:

Of course negative influences exist. We encounter them on the forum. We encounter them in the BSTs that keep souls stuck. We encounter thm in the bardos through which "we are tossed here and there by winds of karma". And we encounter them in our own minds. Experience teaches that negativity exists ither through delusion and ignorance, or through fear. We have a pretty savvy population here, so my vote is fear. The next question is how to handle them. I propose to accept them as a starting point that validly reflects what people think and feel. Then if I can help make them feel better, I am willing to work at it. Fearful people can only criticize. Tough. That keeps them stuck. dave

Many Christian Science Healings may be the placebo effect, but there are others which are obviously not, unless we redefine what most people mean when they say placebo effect.

The best non MBE book about Christian Science is Spiritual Healing In A Scientific Age by Peel.  It is available at most reading rooms and on Amazon used books.

For a quick take reading from page 16 to the end of the chapter will give a quick overview of spiritual and CS healing, and reading the story beginning on page 54 which goes on for around ten pages will provide more detail.

I may be repeating myself, but the most remarkable healing I ever had was when I accidently crushed a hornet's nest.  I was swarmed and started to run, but then stopped and started to pray as I had learned in CS.  In about a minute I opened my eyes to see all the hornets crawling around on their ruined nest, completely ignoring me.  I walked past them and continued to pray and within a few minutes all evidence of the multiple swollen bites had vanished and I felt wonderful.

Another noteworthy personal healing was when I fell off a roof and broke a foot.  The bones were pushing the skin out in improper places and I was in intense pain.  I was so distracted by the foot pain and the other related bruises and injuries that I was unable to work metaphysically for myself and called a Practitioner.  As soon as I started talking with her, the pain vanished.  I decided to not have medical attention, although most CS'ers do with broken bones, and within a few days the bones had realigned themselves.  The foot healed but I had a pronounced limp.  I contacted another Practitioner for help, and had lunch with him.  As I was limping across the street after lunch, a car bore down on me and the driver appeared to be tuning his radio.  I had to run to get out of his way and when I reached the other curb, the foot was completely free and the limp was gone.  I never think about the foot thing unless I am telling the story, and sometimes forget which foot it was.

Before my original healing I had trouble going up stairs and doing much physical exertion.  Now I am setting up a tree nursery as a retirement project and often work all day on my feet, digging and working hard without any problem.

I just spent over a week dismantling a number of large microcomputer controlled machines which my company had in a warehouse to be rebuilt.  They had become obsolete and I took them apart for spare parts and for recycling.  I was on my feet all day every day with no thought of the broken foot and no shortage of energy.

It is experiences like these, which are commonplace among Christian Scientists, that convince me that more is going on than the placebo effect.

I do think that unfortunately it is the best kept secret of the age.  The experiences of active Christian Scientists are so far from those of non CS'ers that almost everyone finds it impossible to believe.  Most people who come into CS as adults come as the result of a dramatic healing of a fatal or very painful disease as I did.  

I think those who are interested in the Afterlife are likely to find CS a very helpful area of study.  It needs to be experienced, not just be studied, and working with a Practitioner on a problem can provide that experience.

I have spent my life as an electronic designer and programmer, a very hard science type.  CS helped me greatly in streamlining designs and finding and solving problems at work.  There is nothing in it opposed to science and technology.

Hi  ,
Faith trust and belief in something can bring about positive outcome as Dave so rightly said. But it is the placebo affect not religious dogma that brings this about. Remember the old days when the doctor still did house visits?. With his air of wisdom knowledge, white clothing and stethoscope, he listened to ones heart said a few comforting words wrote out a possibly useless script reassuring one that the “wonder” medicine would have immediate and positive effect. The moment he left one nearly always began to feel better. This is all that Christian Science does and it is nothing new mysterious and this approach to healing is as old as humans have existed as higher beings on planet Earth. Have you noticed that one makes an appointment with the doctor, and while waiting in his surgery the symptoms often vanish?

LaffingRain Dear, we are all entitled to our own private approach to the divine, I have my own but have never propagated it such as saying, we should follow Sai Babba or Mohammed or Jesus or and guru. I try to take what I feel is good and true out of all belief systems, be it from whichever mystical teacher and try to apply these truths to my life as best as possible. If I did not have this mindset I would not be a member of the afterlife knowledge forum, would I?

If we want to discuss Christian Science as a truth then why not move over to other belief systems such as Jehovah Witnesses, etc adinfintum (god forbid) who do not believe in the spiritual but maintain we have no soul and cease to exist when we die. Where do we then stop, the forum could degenerate into an endless argument about which sect, cult, church etc holds the truth. An impossible task.

Now if I state that Jesus said, this or that, I am not hinting that one should become a Christian or follow his teaching. (Jesus was not a Christian he was an enlightened being).
MBE was as far removed from being an enlightened being, such as Jesus was/is, as one is to infinity
alan
     

Hi Alan-
If I might explain my perspective here - We have a bunch of people who have discovered a way to use a skill that I have not mastered myself. I don't care who they are or what they call themselves or any of that stuff. I'm interested in what they do, and how they do it.

The "placebo effect" is a well known, well documented and extremely effective of "faith healing", you are 100% correct there. But religious?  I do not pray to my physician- in fact my wife is a geriatric nurse who treats me half the time, and I don't pray to her or worship her either. (I also treat her, and she definitely doesn't view me as a religious figure!) Religion, in the sense of formal group membership has never been my life style - I'm not a joiner. So that aspect doesn't seem important. - Come to think of it, my last communication to my physician was a brief paper on fbromyalgia treatments that she requested from me, since I seem to be amopngst the forefront of workers in that field. Does that mean that she's going to be worshipping me? I doubt it!

So aside from the religious aspect, in which I have zero interest, I'm interested in learning this technique. I cited the "placebo effect" because it is a known and very well documented example of healing through faith and belief alone. It differs not one whit from Rei's experiences of hobbling across the street and having a passing car prompt her into healing. The only difference is degree.

Rei has suggested a reference which I'll order this afternoon. That will not make me join CS, nor is it likely to make me a Christian. In my opinion, to reject the potential value of CS's ideas because of prior associations is not a very economical use of our time and resources. At the same time, a Rei points out, if you have something that you feel needs other attention, then go get it. In Science of Mind, Ernest Holmes tells us, "If an aspirin cures your headache, then take an aspirin."  Works for me.

Those who defy the world, but have insufficient control, will indeed have problems that an aspirin might cure. Blind faith doesn't work. However, that misses the point.

Looking one more step farther, the healing techniques of CS, taken totally out of their context, suggest that there is a viable connection between everyday life and control of our circumstances by redefining them. "If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed ... These things you too can do." (Misquoted, sorry, but you get the idea.)

In other words,  just as so many gurus and teachers of many faiths have told us that we are in charge of our own reality, here's at least one way to learn to start exercising that control. I'm interested.

dave

Dave,

You are in line with CS metaphysical practice when you practice redefinition of the situation.

However, there is more to it than that.  For years I practiced a meditation technique that was very effective.  It involved positive visualization and redefninition of bad situations.  

When I developed the situation that led me to accept the offer of help from a CS employee, I had worked endlessly with my old meditation method and had looked for another technique and tried several with no success.  I had always been very healthy.  I was an Army Sergeant in my youth and believed strongly in mind over matter.

I still consider myself a beginner in applying CS.  I know a number of Practitioners and have studied their lives and beliefs and methods, but I can't approach their results working for others at this point.  I have had some notable successes, but they are successful dozens of times per day.

I was amazed to see so many total duplicates in Moen's and Monroe's books with CS.  The idea of allowing others total free will, the idea of PUL, the expectation of total forgiveness, the refusal to render evil for evil, the idea of having nothing to fear and refusing to give in to fear, are just a few.

CS'ers often refer to it as Practical Christianity.   It is very non-charismatic and its Sunday Service consists of three hymns, a solo, a Bible selection selected by the First Reader, and the reading of the weekly lesson with selections from the Bible followed by correlative material from the Textbook.  

Christian Scientists refer to the main church room as the auditorium, not the sanctuary.  There is no alter, but an elevated platform and a podium for the First and Second Readers.

There is the Lords prayer repeated by the congregation, but CS specifically prohibits other public prayers.  "When thou pray enter into thy closet and thy father which sees in secret will reward you openly".  All prayer except the Lords Prayer in CS is silent and personal.

I have learned to handle physical situations very well by myself, but am still working on bringing harmony to discordant situations.  Those situations are where I usually call a Practitioner for help.  I recently called a practitioner about a situation with a customer where the user refused to accept that a problem was of their own making and was solved, was over.  There was a continuing series of personal attacks on an employee of mine and attempts to blame others.  After I discussed the situation with the Practitioner and she began to work on it, the negative feeling was replaced with expressions of gratitude by the user, which were totally appropriate under the circumstances.

CS is a body of knowledge that everyone can benefit by studying.  Jesus said he had to leave before the Comforter could come.  Invoking the Comforter, the Christ, the Holy Spirit, or however you refer to it, changes the apparrent situation to an expression of perfect harmony and elevated thought, the expression of PUL.

In that situation, problems vanish.  The trick is to be able to invoke it consistently.  MBE specifically prohibited a checklist or formula, saying it would become a ritual.  Avoiding ritual is one of the big things in CS.  Everyone must learn to invoke the Comforter by themselves.  Numerous examples of how this is done are provided in the Textbook, although they may not look like that to first time readers.

I have increased my understanding of things in my life experience by reading Moen and Monroe and expect to learn more as I apply Moen's techniques.

I see no conflict with CS and Moen's discoveries.  It is part of learning all we can in this wonderful life experience and maximizing our time here.

HI Recoverer-
By all means we should "question questionable sources", and to do so is certainly not being a "scardy cat". That's exactly why I use standard scientific criteria when loking for  explanations of phenomena.  On that basis we have already come to a pretty general conclusion that most of what we do defies scientific testing - and that our methods are of unknown validity and our treatments have unknown reliability. So that part has been handled.

Rei agrees that not all interventions are successful. My statement is that not all treatments are UN-successful either. Given that, I want to understand how to increase success. I've tried to "sanitize" this idea by focussing on a secular phenomenon of faith healing, the "placebo effect", in which the faith of the user of some intervention causes the intervention to function as desired, in spite of having a known lack of logical efficacy. So that part's been handled too - It's better than nothing, but it ain't perfect.

I'm suggesting that the reason that we don't all have these skills in abundance is that either we have blocked access to them in some manner, or we have failed to go after them to discover them. I can't tell which. But I can tell that so long as I argue about the formalisms, I'll never reach the practical aspects. In fact, talking about the formalities totally misses the topic of what is being done and how.

Metaphysics is scary stuff. One of the biggest fears that metaphysical thinking brings is that we might be powerful and efficacious, because then we might be responsible for our own reality. This is diametrically in opposition to the religious idea of abandoning self reliance and responsibility, denying that we have any effective control over our own lives, and thus no moral culpability for errors, and then crucifying Jesus like a Voodoo chicken in hopes that killing him will remove any ethical taint from us. And we justify this by screwing up the interpretation of a statement that "Jesus died for our sins" - where for is most conservatively read as because of. That posture is sickeningly helpless and hopeless. Those who believe in fire escape religion will probably have to come around again to get it straight.

So what's the problem?

I suggest that we have a collection of ideas that CS (and others) have found useful in producing healings. We have a well researched example of "faith healings" in the form of "placebo effect". Just because we can label the effect doesn't mean that we understand it nor that we can replicate it. We also have a well researched thesis of Rev Paul Durbin (and others) who have demonstrated that prayer is effective in healing all manner of ilnesses, serious or not. (Catholics have done a lot of this, it's not all CS.) We have hypnotic healings which seem to defy purely rational explanations. And we have the ultimate mind boggler, spontaneous remissions, usually without any explanation, and not always ascribable to faulty diagnostics.

Given all this miscellaneous stuff, we wind up with a central thread that something is happening that reduces disorders ofmind and body by means not visibly related to any kind of logical mechanisms in the material world. That brings back the question of "How do I learn to do this?"

Why learn it? This is like meditation - talking about it does nothing. We can't even really describe it what meditation is. So to criticize it we need to first learn to meditate. Then we can start questioning. I claim the same is true here. You don't have to join CS to learn to produce your own "placebo effect" - nor, presumably, to go on to the more advanced and more complex aspects of healing.  In fact, from what Rei says, it seems like this type of study is going to lead back to meditation, since that's the essential posture of prayer, and prayer is the method of focus being used.

I still think that it scares the holy poop out of people to think that everybody might be able to do this stuff! So I still think that fear is where the "other than scientific" objections come from. As for the "scientific objections", we've already covered that.

Bottom line: We can say, with the certainty of science, that for an otherwise naive and untutored population, there is an effect, based solely on faith and intention, that is 15% effective in healing. That effect is open to study, just as is someone's bad attitude, social preferences for garlic, and fear of the unknown.  There have been efforts to enhance and increase the ability to heal, which is what CS proposes, and what has otherwise been experimentally shown to be effective. This can be studied.

dave

Dave, your quote

[edit]The "placebo effect" is a well known, well documented and extremely effective of "faith healing", you are 100% correct there. But religious?  I do not pray to my physician- in fact my wife is a geriatric nurse who treats me half the time, and I don't pray to her or worship her either. (I also treat her, and she definitely doesn't view me as a religious figure!) Religion, in the sense of formal group membership has never been my life style - I'm not a joiner. So that aspect doesn't seem important. - Come to think of it, my last communication to my physician was a brief paper on fbromyalgia treatments that she requested from me, since I seem to be amopngst the forefront of workers in that field. Does that mean that she's going to be worshipping me? I doubt it![/edit]
Dave of course there is no worship for you your wife or doctor as none of you claim to have exclusive knowledge of divine truths as per MBE did. You utilize these truths; you don’t propagate them as your own and start a religious movement from them

Alan

Darn right!

I don't know where MBE or anyone else gets their data, but if there's something to learn, it seems that I'm gonna have to find it out for myself. Talking about the situation doesn't seem to be especially useful, since I can't (as yet) replicate the phenomenon. And if I can't do it, nor understand it, what right do I have to even discuss it?

As for who starts what church - that's not my department. Misses the point.

dave

R says:
I find it odd that Christ would share as many words as he supposedly does in ACIM, and make no mention about the unfriendly spirits that exist.
___
in my personal experience I've not discovered any unfriendly spirits R, maybe deluded spirits in physical reality, but not when I'm out. some of just don't go there. we have different patterns in the soul design. each one of us do. I confess I questioned at first whether it was JC, I relate to him as a master, because to me the Christ is a different image rather spread out in the air. since I was human, I needed to sense him as human too. thats why they used to say we need a personal relationship with J, we have to make him or make what he stands for personal. I fail to understand your point. there are unfriendly persons in the flesh, they are not more unfriendly once they are spirits..so I'm not following well.
as I went along, there was this presence in the room, I called him DP, for dead preacher just to try and communicate with others about spiritual transformations. language is falling short. thanks for the read! it must be so hard for you to understand me.
there came a point where the content became more important than to establish the authors identity as J. as it was like I said before, I was wretched. I suppose many of us know the old song 'that saved a wretch like me? thats a classic soul journey so my words seems like I plucked them up somewhere and typed them here, maybe just to get attention or something. but its an effort to describe these things. when your sitting there in a room all alone and it feels like god is holding you in their arms and rocking you back and forth and book feels holy and you get in touch with home, suddenly you want to live, but there was this one last thing to do spirit said, first read me and don't chicken out. I'm like everyone else, who wants to buckle under? not me!
whoever was there, DP, or just some master affiliated with J, he convicted me on the stuff as I had to stop every few sentences to ask a question.
luckily, I wasn't working. it was grueling but rewarding.
so if I seem defensive, its just I want to assist the shift so everyone can know they are loved too just the same, and such a simple message it is in the book. its just a book of PUL reflections and sound common sense, from a psychological spiritual viewpoint.

speaking of efforts to describe things, I really would like you to elaborate, maybe a whole page! of your night in heaven, you were too brief, from what u wrote it sounds definetely to have changed your life, and I'll bet others didn't understand. thats ok, we do the best we can.

____
R said:
Consider what Robert Monroe wrote in his book Ultimate Journey. He was concerned about unfriendly influences. The INSPEC told him that they do exist. Some evolved differently than us and don't think much of us. Some have experience being human. They can influence people
_____
I suppose anyone can influence anyone. you'll need to find the page number as I don't follow you well, and now you make a leap to Monroe's book. this is another subject I would invite you to the book forum for this as we need to be on the same page.
_____

R says:
aren't smarter than us, but they have a lot of experience (I don't remember Robert's exact words). Perhaps one of the ways they use their experience is to influence people who won't seriously consider the validity of the sources they read, and instead come up with a everything is hip approach.
____

maybe so. could be. what do I know? I just tell my experiences as I perceive them. I have no argument with you really or your point of view. all I know is we get what we give.
You don't give people enough credit R. I don't know where you've been hanging out, but it don't sound like much fun. u gonna come clean anytime soon?
___

at this point the only thing you've said from a correct perception viewpoint which aligns with ACIM is that "in my defenselessness lies my salvation."
because it means a nonduality state. one is just being. not always having to choose between love and fear, as it occurs in the first stages.
again, it is useless to talk about what took me a year to read and then test out for another 20 years, so its ludicrous trying.
I wish you god speed. whereever your journey takes you.
  you already know where there is PUL there cannot be fear.
u must think im a darn parrot by now.
ok, we have to finish up this.
_____

R says:
Isn't it possible that some of the sources you so staunchly defend, might be the negative influences Robert wrote about, or somebody who is influenced by negative influences?
____
I don't remember reading anything about this in Monroe's books, I would only be repeating what I said above. we should have page numbers in the book forum if you are referring to specific parts of a book, that way we can be on the same page.
if somebody out there is worried about negative influences while exploring, I might just add my own thought briefly, ACIM teachs self responsibility for every single detail of your life. it rests upon the daily thoughts you think, what comes to you and this would be great to take into the book forum.
______

If a person notices that a source is passing out misleading information, should this person just keep his or her mouth shut and say nothing, so he or she will appear loving to others
___
of course not. please do not appear to be loving, unless you really are. that would be so fake. I wish we were in the same room. you can communicate so much better in person, its almost like I can hear you growling at me thru the words and I don't want to misperceive you, so I probably will not be talking to you anymore.
it doesn't feel right what is happening here.
____
If such a person does keep his or her mouth shut, doesn't this make it easier for the deceptive sources that exist to mislead others? Shouldn't somebody stand up to them?
____
thats like a job. somebody always needs to be that type of person, I would say comes a point when you get enough clues you are being deceived, you can then make a new choice whether u want to walk or jump up in their face, deception is simply not possible after awhile. I don't know why you ask me this, unless u r wanting validation from me. we have to speak up if we are prompted to set something right. its self expression. go for it. just fight fair. I wouldn't hit somebody and ask questions later, I'd ask questions first then hit them. lol. no I don't hit really, just kidding. your question doesn't make any sense to me.
perhaps its a part of your soul plan to be the defender of the downtrodden.
I know what thats like too. somehow I can't see that u really have an issue here at all.
you know, your whole life is flashing here, isn't it?
you're questioning your whole thought system I feel. That too is just part of our journeys.  take care, wish I could help. I'll be thinking of ya but I know I'm not the one to be answering your questions as they are far too serious for the likes of me.
____

LOVE!!!

Alan,

You are putting words into MBE's mouth and then using your words to bash her.  This is not a logical or fair way to address the situation.  You may be building a hell for yourself, or a hollow heaven.

As I said earlier, read the textbook for yourself.  She never claimed the ideas were her own.  She said repeatedly that she was divinely inspired when she wrote the book and was still learning from it in her old age.  Sales of the book took her from poverty to great wealth, and she used her wealth to set up a structure (The Mother Church - TMC in Boston) to defend and promote the ideas in the book.

The book can mean different things to different people at different times, and its meaning grows as you actually practice its teachings.  I attempted to read it several years before the healing that got me into CS, and saw it as a self-help book from a religious perspective.  I missed almost everything that I now see in it.

CS has to be experienced, not just studied.  I am a studier, and my approach was to study it and all the related writings I could find.  As I have progressed I have experienced more and more and am finding more ways to more consistently apply it.  The most experienced and successful Practitioners I know still refer to themselves as students.  Humility is essential.

The effect of CS is to apply a universal rule of Love, which does not take from one and give to another, but blesses all alike, opens possibilities where it appeared there were none, and heals instantly.  The mortal mind opposition is mainly fear that something will happen that they don't control.  All mortal effort is directed at gaining some sort of control over the percieved environment.  Many of these human efforts are illusory but they are intensely defended.  

A fearless approach is required, along with an understanding that God (Divine Mind - your disk - however you refer to the master planner) does nothing but good.  As Jeremiah said:  "...for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."  Jer 31

MBE taught to not take the Bible literally, but to find the spiritual meaning.  This has gotten her in trouble with a lot of mainstream denominations, but her followers, who take the Bible spiritually and not literally, are actively healing themselves and others, and living fearless lives, while the others are arguing over various translations and attacking people like Elaine Pagels with her books about Gnostics and Judas.  A quick Google search will find numerous contradictory interpretations of various Bible stories, so there seems to be a lot of room for MBE's take on them.

The quickest way to experience CS is to work with a professional Journal Listed Practitioner on a problem and experience the result.  

I just got my daily email from Spirituality.com which had this passage from Science & Health (the CS Textbook):  "When we fully understand our relation to the Divine, we can have no other Mind but His, -- no other Love, wisdom, or Truth, no other sense of Life, and no consciousness of the existence of matter or error."

Signing up for the daily Mother Church email will open access to a lot of other CS material.  Here is the link:  
https://www.spirituality.com/ma/login.jhtml?branding=subscriptions

I am reminded of a story that happened here in St. Louis a few years ago related by a Practitioner friend of mine.  A woman was in a serious auto accident and had been taken to a local hospital where her condition was diagnosed as hopeless.  An aunt of the woman remembered that she had attended a CS Sunday school years earlier and asked other family members if a CS Practitioner should be called.  My friend was called and when she entered the emergency room she saw that the woman had a substantial depression in her skull where it had been crushed.  She began to work metaphysically and glanced away from the woman.  When she glanced back the skull had regained its normal shape.  A number of medical personnel in the room also saw the change and were amazed.  The woman regained conscousness and the Practitioner asked her if she would like to be taken to the local CS facility, known as Peace Haven, which cares for CS'ers who are unable to care for themselves.  She said she wanted to do that and was transported there.  Her broken bones healed and she made a complete recovery.

I refer to Peace Haven as the place where Christian Scientists go until they pop back into shape.  I went there with my broken foot and got a padded bootie to keep me from hitting the foot and rented a pair of crutches.  

MBE must have went through tremendous mud slinging defending the inspirational material she received. and still happening. You must be exceedingly grateful that she did Rei. I can sense that because I am too, grateful. every day matter of fact, and virtually unable to share that here.
I'm behind you in your posts here, as you're going to get the same mud in you face and already have just for the desire to actually pass on the good feeling.
However, you are so well written, just stating the facts, I think you are communicating just fine so keep it up!

I can't help but compare the ACIM literature to CS because the experience of humility is precisely the same, and your words you have to experience the word, not just read it, is true here also. also the similarity of your words are compared with ACIM, that we are all teachers, we are all students, and that relates to humility.
its amazing to read you, because its like reading myself.

I wouldn't be afraid of buckling under to humility in the least because as it turned out, it was me being cleansed. I speak from a more personal pov than you but we need people also that just present the facts as they know them and to bad theres no payback to speak of for posting here, otherwise I'd be so rich!

just to ramble a bit what I found highly digestible in ACIM is that we are teaching others all the time Who We Are.  that just means we cannot help but reveal ourselves if we even open our mouth..some self definition is expressed.
that alone produces an effect, negative or positive. One time I got slapped in the face by a wandering guide who said "what you say to one man, you say to all men."

thats because I would always speak to the individual but I didn't have mindfulness of global consciousness, that everything I uttered was what I uttered to all. until I started getting into the We Are One concept, then I saw how alike we all are, while yet we desire to retain our snowflake individuality. and this is possible in a spiritual sense, while healing the separation, which is illusory that my needs supercede yours.

I will surely call upon a CS practioner if I need too due to your reports here. I may just need the fellowship aspect as well I always had a desire to be used as a healing instrument, and have done some laying on of hands now and then. So sounds like a great avenue for me.

I do think it's time, don't you? for healings to become more plentiful.

we surely have nothing to lose by the effort. love, alysia

Interesting Rei - Peace Haven - practical. The skull fracture is interesting

I've noticed that those things we do that involve others often require us to release our grip on them in order that an effect might occur.  For years, the old game about staring at people to "make them turn around" never worked for me. Finally I discovered that in fact it was often possible to communicate fundamental attitudes, like "look to the right" by intending, focussing, and then going off into some other distraction that separated my train of thought from what I was doing. My impression is that by clinging to the status of the event as presented, we also cling to the circumstances that we wish to remove. By redirecting ourselves, we also are able to choose an alternative future in which the attachment is not present.

Part of what we do seems to involve being willing to intend something, set it into motion, and then let it happen. This, in my mind, is a matter of practical faith. Your anecdote brought it to mind.  In hypnotic work (I practice as a hypnotist)  the same thing is true. I often tell people that all they need to do is to get out of their own way, and to not stumble over their own feet. So I would make a tentative assumption that this attitude, action and release, is part of the process by which healing is produced. If we apply this to the more common case of placebo effect, then what we have is the action of taking whatever the sugar pill of the day is, and then going on with life, allowing the natural defenses of the body to be called up in response.  Prayer, and especially silent prayer in which we don't have some other person's words with which to argue or dispute, seems to be quite similar. Or, looked at in reverse, perhaps hypnosis, which is little more than a guided meditation,  is actually a great deal closer to prayer than we had thought.

Who knows but that eventually this general concept can be developed into a technology that can be taught to metaphysically minded hypnotherapists. If so, it is certainly no criticism of MBE or the other pioneers in this work. (The other name that comes to mind this morning is Rasputin, who seemes to have had good luck treating hemophilia - all other factors of his life notwithstanding.) The basic tenet of Eastern faiths, that reality is what we choose to create for ourselves, fits right in at that point.

Alysia - I've only dabbled with ACIM, snatches of readings here and there, but it seems to be in the same line of thought. It's interesting that you and I seem to be the ones left to try to dig out the core ideas, now that the big arguments about who said what and to whom have blown over. (Or have they?) Perhaps the essence of all these ideas is to move to a posture in which we have progressively fewer constraints keeping us bound to the immediate instant - and from there to be able to select options more effectively.

dave

Hi Dave I'm following u around  :) what u said about silent prayer I agree, can be likened to setting an intention like we talk about intentions here.

just to share one affirmation I got from ACIM is something along the lines of the ability to make a decision. one way or the other.  this struck me hard at the time as I realized how indecisive I really was. once I could get a handle on what it meant to make a firm decision and then just release it, I could it works. sort of like piss or get off the pot.
the releasing part is maybe the most difficult part as that means you have to stop worrying about it. like your attachment comment..non attachment to outcome means a freed up head space to actually be able to do it.
like making a basket you might say, are you going to stand there all day or just go ahead and aim for it? maybe this is like Bruce's little finger bending idea. I always think about that little finger bending, just before it actually does bend.

In ACIM theres a lot of affirmations: 365 or each day of the year. a lot of them start out with I choose...
reminding us we do have choice between two thoughts, always. yes we seem on the same wave length where u say selecting options, and I say making a choice.  :)
I'm gonna go sail my boat now Dave gently down the stream, merrily merrily life is but a dream.  [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif]

Well, Alysia, I chased women for years, so we have some karma, hum? :-)

Bruce's "silly little finger bending exercise" is very much to the point. Mind over matter. Excellent suggestion. I sense the same thing as in Rei's CS remarks.

OK - so we now have the placebo effect as a general example of healing through faith in a substance or treatment, several cases of intention which involves focussed will followed by release, prayer groups (Durbin et al), and silent prayer by what I assume are advanced meditators in CS. All these have something in common that makes them work.

We have limited explanations, Buddhism simply tells us that we do it all for ourselves and to ourselves. There is a distinct lack of explanation about how we accomplish this. Other approaches tell much the same thing, that we are the prime shapers of our destinies, that God has given us the ability to alter the world to fit our whims and wishes, but not how to do it.

Meditation brings samadhi, which ends up in the ultimate spiritual spaces where the everyday world disappears and is replaced by our own projections. I've used this idea in hypnotherapy, by sending a person "to the Center" - then suggesting a different attitude with which to view the world, and bringing them back, they tend to instantiate that attitude.  So that's part of it as well.

I have the sense of something truly profound, lurking just under the surface. But I can't quite see it yet.

dave

I too have a subtle sense of freshness in the air Dave. smells exotically familiar.

the different attitude is the suggestion u can give your patients..or clients, that is what I want to mention is a good means to change.

One of my most favorite of all meditations of the 365 lesson plans of ACIM is
"I wish to see this differently."

holy cow I thought when I first read that, does he mean just by wishing I can see a problem differently? BONG!  ;D well from then on out I remembered this phrase when I was not finding the answer I needed and a little upset about it.
I closed my eyes and just said silently "I wish to see this differently."
then I would have to forget because it's not instant gratification, more like experimentation with the principle combined with faith.

a few days would go by, and it still works this way, a few day will pass, and sure enough, just like tuesday follows monday, I would be looking at the problem from an entirely different viewpoint! which always settled me down with some kind of aha moment where there was a problem, before, now there's no problem, just a peaceful feeling.

somehow I can't see Dave as a woman chaser, but hmmm, he probably was now that I think about it... :D

REI,

I still reject the belief that the material is and is a figment of the spiritual mind. Why would the creator give us a physical body with five senses that constantly lie about the reality in our environment? Science of the mind is not the same as the “RELIGION OF CHRISTIAN SCIENCE”.

The scripture must be read in the spiritual light but is also very relevant to every day life. "Love one another as I have loved you". If the spiritual is the only view we must take from the bible then the death of Jesus was a lie and delusion of the wrong thinking mind. Again, I reject this with the distain it deserves.

alan

Disdain away dude, it's a free country.

If you ever have a serious problem, you may wish to contact a Practitioner.  

If you do, I truly hope you have an experience similar to those that I have had.  It will heal you and expand your universe in ways you don't seem to comprehend right now.

Almost all Christian Science Churches have "God Is Love" prominently displayed on the wall of their auditorium.  That pretty well sums it up.

Dave,

Your years of working for good are apparent in your posts.  

I think you might find Spiritual Healing In A Scientific Age by Peel interesting.  As I said in an earlier post, reading from page 16 to the end of the chapter and then reading the stories starting on page 54 will give you a quick summary of the ideas.

I just read the first few pages of Moen's workbook last evening.  I am in the middle of a very involved proceeding right now, but hope to devote time to his workbook in the next week or so.

Thanks for your observations and comments.

REI

Alan quote:
The scripture must be read in the spiritual light but is also very relevant to every day life. "Love one another as I have loved you". If the spiritual is the only view we must take from the bible then the death of Jesus was a lie and delusion of the wrong thinking mind.
____

my opinion its true the spiritual life intersects to be relevant to everyday life.

your statement is "then the death of J, was a lie/delusion of incorrect perception.

excuse the change I made. If we focus on J's resurrection rather than the crucifixion, we have no argument with Christian Science. I submit J wanted the world to know the body was nothing because he didn't "stay down." therefore the spirit and the mind of man is more important as a concept of mind over matter.
PUL, or love is misplaced here, to mean a love of body sensations which precludes the spiritual quest is not the right focus, and we are slowly getting to that knowledge.
that does not mean we are not permitted to enjoy our five senses as we study and learn and live.
it just means the five senses are limited perceptional values when held up next to a master teacher's viewpoint.

Hi Alan -
While I defintely do not want to start a church, I see no problem with the idea. However, it needs to be taken in context. I recall the words of the late science fiction author, L Ron Hubbard, who said that if we want to get rich, starting a church is the best way. And then he founded Dianetcs which turned into Scientology, and lived happily ever after on his Mediterranean yacht

The fact that someone discovers a truth, any old garden variety of truth, and then starts an organization at which other people come and also look at their truth and make it work for them, sounds to me like a good idea. Churches are made by men for men and women like us.

Personally, Alan, I'd be far happier to join a group that does something tangible than one that gives me a book edited by Justinian's cronies for purposes of extending their political power in the "Holy Roman Empire" and tells me to take all this on faith because nobody understands it enough to talk about it. About the third time I heard a priest tell me that it was all a big mystery and no mortal could fathom it I decided that something was seriously amiss. The next line to that litany is that we're all damned forever, so get out the asbestos overalls.

I rather prefer The Gospel of Thomas. But that was anti-imperialist, and didn't make the cut.

If we are willing to look at these ideas from the perspective of growth, we can see that there are a few religious organizations in which people do nothing but hang out, but they offer some kind of background focus for life. Next we have the "cheap and dirty churches" that specialize in fire escape religiosity, often with a lot of drama and screaming. Next in line are the popular apologists who try to find social platitudes by which to keep the lid on for another season. I'm inclined to put King Henry and the C of E into that group, right along with Justinian, although they've certainly advanced since them.

Then there are a few that suggest that we can benefit ourselves by various practices, such as self denial, learning to delay gratification, and penance. Then we find people undergoing great physical abnegations and flagellation and suchlike in an effort to mortify their flesh so as to evolve. Some of these guys actually can do remarkable things.

A very few "churches" suggest that the path to the Ultimate Galuptuous Golden Goody is by meditation and inner work, emphasizing more the Doctrine of the Heart over the Doctrine of the Eye. After we get a few steps beyond our meditation lessons we start discovering various organizations in which there are phenomena produced that actually involve spiritual changes, such as the Spiritualists' numerous groups.  (I technically am a spiritualist minister, although I rarely act in that capacity.) And somewhere on the upper side of the goups that provide spiritual phenomena we discover groups that produce physical phenomena, including the various flavors of Christian Science and Religious Science (Science of Mind) and a few metaphysical organizations.

From this perspective, there is a progression of organizations available to the naive new soul through which to ultimately find the path back to God. I do not feel that it is because God is malicious, capricious, or inscrutible that we have all this ecclesiastical clutter. Rather, it is necessary to fit the means to those who need it, so we have a pretty wide spectrum of dors through which to walk in search of ultimate Realization.

Some individuals start churches for specific mundane purposes - I recall the Rastafarians and other neo-theo-herbalists in Maui, seeking to protect their meditation style. The tiny group to which I belong is oriented toward protection of rights to perform religious healing along the usual lines of spiritualism, entity depossession and so on, in spite of laws in places like Indiana that regulate and prohibit some of these activities. It's a church made for and by men, but for spiritual purposes.

My personal take on all of this is that if we truly want to find what the Tibetans call "the Short Path", then we have to use whatever resources we can find. These are provided so that we can start with any kind of background, such as idolatry, and progress to the one ultimate fact at the top of the mountain - "there's no-thing there". (That's because it all arose ex-nihilo.)

It is the aspect of no-thing and no-body that will presumably accompany our awareness into the afterlife. Meanwhile, we have CS, ACIM, esoteric Buddhism and Vedanta telling us that having reached that point, we can now do it for ourselves. If we accept that point, then we must also accept that, in this case, Rei has come to us because we are prepared to hear her message. And that has happened, not because of trivial happenstance, but according to the ultimately fine grinding of the wheels of God's enlightenment machine. So we can use it, lose it, or just sit and go into a sort of passive denial state from which we are required to do nothing, and which returns about twice as much nothing as we put forth.  ;-)

Alysia - As a fine upstanding red-blooded American dissolute, it is my duty to chase skirts and to work dilligently to increase the multiplicity of the species.  I have striven earnestly to fulfill these mundane expectations. However, alas, what I used to do all night now takes me all night to do.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

dave

Dave:  However, alas, what I used to do all night now takes me all night to do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/Tofunny.gif

thanks for sharing Dave. nice thread you guys. I just told our CS friend spirit brought him here. thats how I feel about it. my opinion.

Dave, you are official title Spiritualist minister? it just surprised me. my roots are there.

love, alysia

It's a technical title, Alysia. I occasionally have a marriage or whtever to do. It's fun. I think all our roots are there, in point of fact. But my work remains formally defined as clinical hypno-analysis and regression. The rest is just a convenient technicality.

d

Dave

You are correct in that we can read explore any belief system we like as free private individuals, extracting what is good and positive and spewing out the nonsense. My problem with CS is that they like all sects they are exclusive in that they believe if you do not believe exactly what the preach and promulgate you are ignorant,deceived and possible destined to some sort of lost eternity or hell fire.

Daves quote


Quote:

From this perspective, there is a progression of organizations available to the naive new soul through which to ultimately find the path back to God. I do not feel that it is because God is malicious, capricious, or inscrutible that we have all this ecclesiastical clutter. Rather, it is necessary to fit the means to those who need it, so we have a pretty wide spectrum of dors through which to walk in search of ultimate Realization

Very nicely put Dave but god is inscrutable or we would not be having this dialogue or belong to this forum.

alan

Alan,

Your previous post is total nonsense.  One of the standard lessons in CS is titled "Eternal Punishment" and the lesson teaches that there is no such thing.

CS stresses individualism and freedom.  There are no exclusive requirements, but a common desire to know God better as individuals and do a better job of healing.

CS was one of the first organizations to implement term limits and mandatory rotation in office for elected offices to prevent individuals from exercising undue effect on others and entrenching themselves in power.

The goal of a Christian Scientist is to demonstrate healing of all discordant situations through the application of Divine Love.

REI

Hi Rei-
You've made an interesting remark, that it's easy to test CS by working on some issue with a Practitioner. I think that this would make an interesting project. If anyone else is interested I'd be glad to join in and do the statistics (if any).

dave

REI,

I have negotiated and healed myself around the most appalling health problems during my life, without the need of a CS practitioner.

I take umbrage at the terms you used to reflect my posts such as: "absolute nonsense" and "you cannot comprehend". I never dialogue Absolute Nonsense and comprehend fully all you have posted, "tone down your rhetoric", we are supposed to be friends on this forum. I am entitled to believe what I believe. My universe has long been expanded in ways my friend,in separate ways, that you do not comprehend. As for CS I saw tasted and rejected as false.

Your Quote:


Quote:

If you ever have a serious problem, you may wish to contact a Practitioner.   If you do, I truly hope you have an experience similar to those that I have had.  It will heal you and expand your universe in ways you don't seem to comprehend right now

alan

Darn it, did I missed something here, why do I sense fussing?

P.S. I have an ailment which requires each and every one of us to demonstrate PUL for it to be healed. How does one go about such?

Hugs,
Nanner

Alan,

I can't remember the last time I heard the word umbrage.  

Umbrage and disdain are words not often heard among the Christian Scientists I associate with.

However, I am grateful that you have been able to heal yourself of the most appalling health problems.  

John 18:38
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

I was looking through a CS Journal yesterday and an article commented that MBE never required that students be members of the CS Church to attend the twelve day class on Spiritual Healing that she set up.  

Advanced Practitioners are appointed as teachers, and conduct classes on healing.  They choose their own students, which then become members of the teacher's association.  The annual meeting of my association is one of the high points of my year.  Teachers are noted in the Journal by the initials CSB following their names.

MBE had hoped that the other churches would incorporate her discoveries into their practice, but they were instead met with umbrage and disdain.  

She set up her church to provide a place for her students to meet.  You don't have to be a Christian Scientist to be healed by it, and there is no expectation that you will become one after you are healed, although many do.  When I went back to the Methodist Church I had attended as a young person during a visit to my home town, I was amazed at how empty of meaning the service seemed.  

I usually spend my Sunday mornings listening to sermons by some favorite local pastors on the radio in Vincennes Indiana.  Then I listen to the weekly CS Sentinel Radio broadcast and go to the church to practice for the service which I help conduct as Second Reader.

A listing of Sentinel Radio stations and times is here:  http://www.spirituality.com/sentinelradio/index.jhtml

If you are ever in Vincennes on a Sunday Alan, you are welcome to attend our services.  We will not take umbrage and you will not be treated with disdain.

John 8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Science and Health (the textbook) and the King James Bible are online in searchable form here:  http://www.spirituality.com/dt/toc_sh.jhtml   It is a handy place to find quotations to copy and paste from.

As I said in an earlier post, I didn't get the meaning of most of the textbook the first time I read it.  CS really needs to be experienced to be understood.  After my original healing I went back to the textbook and still didn't get a lot out of it, but as time has passed I see more and more in it.

I happened across the paperback copy I used during my class and reread some of the highlighted parts yesterday.  I randomly opened it to find a selection that had a lot of meaning for something I was thinking about.

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

PUL for all, all the time.

REI

I await my copy of Rees.

Watching the development of ideas here, I'm coming to the conclusion that we've all put ourselves on quite a trip.   Aside from covering my backside with respect to bad actions of the past, I can't see that it makes a bit of difference what I believe, so long as it maintains a decent world with loving friends.

After suggesting that we might collectively look up a CS Practitioner to hassle, I'm trying to think of a good collective goal that we might experience. Immediate liits come to mind - it ought to be socially beneficial, be good for CS and the Practitioner, and it should be useful in the goals of the general forum in the sense of supporting it. One possibility might be to develop a new meditative skill - and of course I'm still interested in the How-To aspect of healing.

Ideas, anyone?

dave

Dave,

What is liits?  The best healings are usually associated with some physical ailment, but the people on this site may already be far healthier than most.

REI

Hmmm - "liits" is a typo. - Between a sticky keyboard, big fingers, a lack of typing skill and not proof-reading, evidently these things happen. - Sorry.

Maybe "ideas" would be a better word.

Since this is a forum oriented toward afterlife and healing, perhaps skill building to become proficient in this area would be appropriate, That fits my immediate interests. It is "healing" in the sense of getting rid of superfluous mind-fluff. Like cleaning the lint trap on my closthes dryer. :-)

dave

Thanks Dave.  

I have spent my life in the electronics and programming area where everything is an acronym.

I am one of the few AFAIK among Christian Scientists in this afterlife area.  I have passed the site to several other CS'ers and two seem to have some interest but not at the level I do.

A Practitioner might be personally interested in afterlife exploration but their focus is on healing in this earthly experience.  I heard of one who would work on the deceased but she was the exception.

They are working people who spend their days responding to those who call on them for help with problems in the here and now.

It was physical healing that got the CS movement going.

REI

Hi Rei-
Well, if you had one of those old time cellular phones that came in a half cubic meter of discrete components, you probably used equipment that I worked on. (About 40 years back.)  Nothing like electronics to stimulate clear cause-and-effect analysis of things.

My thought is that the only thing that really needs healing is our attitude, since attitude is our posture in life, from which our leanings toward this or that idea tend to get us involved in the things to which we cling. Like having the annoying flu that's been going around - and lingering afterwards. My nose is becoming calloused from blowing it so often. I have no idea why I have attached myself to the bugs that spread it, but there's got to be some kind of subtle payoff.

Actually, thinking about it, if I pray sincerely I always get what I ask for. It adds a certain element of hazard, because I don't always ask for things I really need, and not always am I willing to deal with what I get. :-)

I'll wat until Rees' book arrives and reconsider.

One of the things I've noticed on this forum is that most people here seem to get their wishes granted -whether in terms of keeping loved ones around, or otherwise. And that has its own pitfalls, since one of the simplest ways to keep them around is to stick them ont the psyche as hitch hiking entities - not a bad thing, but one that keeps them stuck, and can be annoying when they start babbling and fussing at inopportune
moments.

Whatever else,  I've gotten a new perspective for the moment. - Thanks

By the way, what does AFAIK mean?

dave

AFAIK is As Far As I Know.

I must have missed the reference to the Rees book.  

The only book I think I mentioned was Peel's book on Spiritual Healing In A Scientific Age.

I would be interested in your take on my new thread.

Thanks