AN IMAGINARY DIALOGUE WITH A GUIDE:

I find myself in an inky void. It is peaceful.  I mentally try to summon a guide.  A presence soon responds, but it is hard to know how long it took because time seems to have a different flow over "there," if it still exists at all.  When my guide arrives, I mentally ask if I can pose a few questions.  My request is granted.  I ask if it is OK to be a man-for-others in the astral realm.  Guide: "What do you mean?"  Don: "Can I ask questions in behalf of others who would like to explore in this way, but cannot for various reasons."  Guide: "Fire away."  Don:  "Is it possible to explore and establish new protoculs for retrievals?  Can I be directed to trapped spirits whose identity can be determined and checked by obituaries or some other means?"   Guide: "Your perceptual skills may not be adequate to gain such clarity."  Don: "I just asked if this goal is worth pursuing."  Guide: "If you want to do retrievals, you just have to trust that your guides are directing you to the right cases for your current level of development."  Don: "OK, but why can't that ever include information that might lead to obituaries (e. g. name, date and place of death)?" I receive a rote, but it takes a while to unravel it.  When I succeed, I realize that the guide has informed me: "The cases we select are based on how prepared spirits are for retrieval.  Spirits are located in planes according to like attracts like and their energetic-make-up must be adjusted to be compatible to the higher plane to which  they are being retrieved.  This takes planning and several preparatory visits to the retrievees.  Retrievees must be selected through this process, not to satisfy your need for proof."  Don: "But I just asked you if I can function over here as a man-for-others and you said, 'yes.'  I'm not asking that every case lead to an obituary, just some cases."  Guide: "No can do!"  Don: "You're just saying that because you are merely a figment of my imagination, aren't you?"  Guide: "Well, I am a part of your I-There."  Don: "Ah, just the astral jargon I might expect.  I now realize that this is just a lucid dream about astral exploration.  My unconscious is establishing roadblocks to verification because it doesn't want the realism of this state to be discredited.  It demands that I respect the illusion."  Guide: "Bingo!  But you are drawing a false distinction between astral states and lucid dreams.  Both states are variations of the same astral conditions."  Don: "That's a bogus distinction and I have more constructive things to do with this state than perceive your double-talk.  I think I'll create a romantic fantasy instead."  Guide: "OK, have it your own way. Enjoy!  Hope to dialogue with you again."  Don: "Duh!"

A lot of people have spontaneous regressions. Anything that upsets our everyday clinging to the world can do that. Here's a collection of reports in which that occurs fairly commonly - 25%+ of the time, in my estimation.

www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Salvia_divinorum_First_Times.shtml

I have a hypnotic protcol on my site at www.mbs-hypnoclinic.com although you might have t search a bit to locate it under "readings" etc.

dave

Dear Don

You appear to be a highly educated and highly verbal individual, and someone who pays attention to detail.

At the risk of starting an argument, which is not my intention, I would like to point out that it appears you have misspelled the word protocol not once but twice. I find this peculiar because it is not consistent with the image you present. Perhaps you are not what you say you are.?

On the other hand, perhaps you just don't like bothering with spelling. In that case, the unique spelling becomes an example of how easily things can be skewed. Maybe the difference between an OBE and a lucid dream is as minute and subtle as the difference between the correct and incorrect spelling of a word. Or maybe there is no important and significant difference between the two.

Dear Dave

How do you find this stuff? I randomly picked the top one "The Hellraiser Leaf" and was amused that it appeared to have been written by someone local to me as, well, how many Mass Ave's are there? It sounds like Cambridge MA to me. I think the Buddhist centers are over around Harvard. I never needed a drug to take me to that place he talks about ..."...to be somehow consciously and for all eternity AWARE of nothing but vast nonexistence - the totality of infinite abandonment - this was far and beyond the terrors of any previous concept of Christian purgatory." Sartre was enough to frame what I felt. But Sartre never caused me to experience a regression. But how do you know it is a regression? Cambridge was a lively vital interesting place at the time he describes. Perhaps he tapped into someone else's "memories"?

Or since we are purportedly all interconnected, does it matter if it was a regression or a, shall we say, random rote found in the streets of Cambridge?

Lucy,
I would give Don that benefit of the doubt on spelling.
I know it is one of my weaknesses.  It doesn't make me any less intellegent.  Just ignorant to the spellings.
My kids have teased me about my spellings (and grammar) for years but, they have come to notice I have improved.

It is a pet peeve of mine for my own lack of spelling knowledge.  Hence, I use Google a lot to double check my spellings. hehe! :D

Okay, but Don, what if the romantic fantasy came walking right up to you?

Wouldn't you think your "lucid dream" was a little more than just that? Would you start to blur the edges of "real" and "not real" without even "realizing" it?

love, blink :)

or even say, if your romantic fantasy did something totally unexpected and you yelled out HEY! thats not how I expected u to act so crazy!

when people act differently than expected in these areas, it tends to make one "wake up" in the surprise of it all. then the part of you that is interacting proceeds to go and see if this is "real."
it becomes real when the person returns again and again to your dream area and starts to tell you stuff you never had a clue about. you research what they told you and find verification they were right on!
sometimes if they tell you something you wish weren't true, you want to say, no, it was just a dream, because if you admit what they said was indeed true, it means you have some hard work to do on your belief system but its worth it because the truth makes you freer.

love, alysia

Oh, yeah, that's better, Alysia. What if the romantic fantasy is doing its "romantic fantasy" thing, and then, all of the sudden, the fantasy stops and says, wait, I think I'd like to have dinner first.

And then, Don, you go, Dinner? Who said anything about dinner?

And then the "romantic fantasy" suddenly sits down to a plate of "something" and you, Don, suddenly wonder, is this really my romantic fantasy after all?

Looking away from the plate, you notice that there are a few people at the table that you don't remember inviting, but, my, that's a good vintage sitting there. What the heck - the talk may get cosier and people may "spill". Maybe it's time to ask a few questions.

You're sure you can keep your wits about you because there's that flying pig over there, see it, over at the edge of the scene...if it weren't for that hovering thing it's doing, everything might appear almost "normal."

love, blink :)

Don:

Perhaps you haven't been involved with retrievels in a genuine way, because you aren't an ideal candidate to do so.

For example, you would probably expect any spirits you make contact with to always operate according to how you say the Bible says they should operate. What if reality isn't precisely as your Biblical interpretations suggest? How could light beings possibly work with you, if you try to present the guidelines as to how they should operate?

As you probably know by now, I believe in Christ not because the Bible told me so, but because of experiences and messages I've received. If I want to know what the words of Jesus were I prefer to go to the Gospels rather than a channeled source, because as least ways from a historical perspective, I can see a connection.

However, I don't assume that everything the Bible says is true. I figure it was put together by different men who were open to divine inspiration, shall I say channeled information, to varying degrees. For example, when Moses claimed that God gave him extensive guidelines for things such as animal sacrifices, how to treat slaves, when to stone people and when to kill them, what to do with first borns, about how a woman is impure for 4 weeks after giving birth to a boy and twice as long after giving birth to a girl, and what type of animal sacrifices she should do in order to atone things, I have a hard time believing that Moses actually received these instructions from God.

When it comes to retrievels, one needs to start from the right heart space and state of mind, and can't be thinking in terms of some beings are simply demons, and should be treated accordingly. One has to have the understanding that they too could've become a spirit who manifests in an evil way, if things didn't work out so one chose God and his love and light instead.  

When I compare myself to spirits who ended up manifesting in a negative way to myself, I don't think in terms of "I'm superior to them." I think in terms of: "I'm just one small part of one huge self, and I'm so incredibly fortunate that I ended up manifesting in a manner that enables me to chose God, love and light, rather than a dark way. I view spirits who ended up getting involved with a dark way, as parts of my greater self that need help in seeing the light, so they too can move on to a really wonderful way of existing.

I don't mean that one should be a half witted fool when one meets a spirit who has evolved in a dark way. Sometimes a show of strength is needed. However, one should always respond to such a spirit with love in one's heart, or one ends up taking approach that is somewhat similar to their approach. Either one takes a non-judgmental love approach, or an adversarial approach.

Regarding receiving retrievel confirmations from the spirit beings I work with, I received some early on, but eventually things developed to the point where I knew I could trust them, and there was no need for them to go through the impracticality of providing me with evidence over and over and over again.

If you think about it, it is possible that conformational evidence could come from a deceptive spirit. Therefore, it wouldn't prove anything. The only way to get around this conundrum, is to come to the point where you know you can trust and have faith in the spirits you work with.
(Please read the above paragraph again. It is an important point I've made to you before that you didn't respond to.)

I'm able to help in the way I do, partly because I had enough faith to go through the extensive energetic work I had to go through in order that I can help. Sometimes this energetic work would be really intense. How would you feel about just sitting or laying there as the necessary energetic work was performed on you? Would you be more likely to believe that beings who represent the light are helping you, or that demonic forces are deceiving you? Until one can become a helper, one needs to get to the point where one trusts those who help one become a helper. Is such a thing possible, if one is overly quick to demonize those who try to help, because they don't follow the protocol one believes they should follow?  At some point one needs to get to the point where one decides according to one's heart and therefore a deeper way of understanding, rather than one's textbook way of looking at things. A textbook understanding goes only so far. A deep feeling of love goes further.

Quote:

However, I don't assume that everything the Bible says is true. I figure it was put together by different men who were open to divine inspiration, shall I say channeled information, to varying degrees. For example, when Moses claimed that God gave him extensive guidelines for things such as animal sacrifices, how to treat slaves, when to stone people and when to kill them, what to do with first borns, about how a woman is impure for 4 weeks after giving birth to a boy and twice as long after giving birth to a girl, and what type of animal sacrifices she should do in order to atone things, I have a hard time believing that Moses actually received these instructions from God.

I always ask the question: "Which god is the Old Testament referring too?"
The Source 'God' or Off World Beings that are 'playing god'?
I firmly believe we have been messed with DNA wise for eons by beings that 'played god'.
This is one reason they cannot find the 'missing link'.

The true Source 'God' would not ask that of us.

It reminds me of a letter to Dr. Laura from one of her 'fans'.
It is quite profound and funny all in one.

Here it is:

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, "In the Old Testament, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.” The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by an east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. Now when someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is; how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Jim

Isn't that fantastic?  I love it when people like Dr. Laura 'Speak for God' as IF they are so rightous.

HI Lucy-
I definitely am not whom I say I am.  Even if I were, after saying it I wouldn't be. So there! ;-)

However, I type with two or three fingers, rapidly, without proofing sometimes (ulp - mea culpa!) and I'm a bit careless at times.

By the way - I identify myself as an old hippie - so one would expect that I'd be tuned into some of that stuff. I got into math and physics in later life. For me, this arouses the tension of trying to make sense of both what we used to pay the guy on the street corner $5 to experience, as well as the logic of science which imposes itself upon us.

Mebbe 'f I regress a tad it'd be mo betta, huh? By the way - that stuff's a deliriant and I think they almost all OD'd on it. Blecch.   :-X - I'd nominate it for use in trial by ordeal!

Incidently, now that you're counting, I only misspellt "protocol" wrongly once - the title isn't mine. You might want to keep in mind that there are just three kinds of people in the world - Those who can add, and those who can't.

dave

Don, To me it seems like there is little difference between us here in the ghetto and those who think themselfs upon some holy throne. We are all on a quest for knowledge and both want to help others. Your concern about not getting the specifics such as name,number, date of death.....and me not ever seeing water turned into wine, the red sea parted, blind being able to see, the dead back into life.....make us somewhat the same. Both believing, yet neither having real proof enough to satasfy the other. I don't need God to kick me in the butt so that I know he is. Why must you have the need for proof? The truth is within. Even you will finally know once you die. And once you move onward from your self imposed area of the belief systems territory, you may finally be fortunate enough to know the real glory of God. It may well not be heaven as you believe it to be. (Not to be confused with what any other person believes heaven to be.) Monroe named some of these areas as being in focus 24/25/26 and thay can be filled with many souls who all believe the same things. I am sure your heaven will have a number of others who believe the same as you in it. Perhaps this is why you have this need to have "your" church. So you will have a bit of company over there while you wait to work things out. You know, other of the same mind and beliefs, all stuck in the same place.
Joe  

Albert,

No, I would expect any retrieval guide to respond unpredictably and in some ways contrary to my preconceptions. Otherwise, I'd suspect that my unconscious created the experience to support my preconceptions.  The formulaic nature of retrieval experiences reported on this site induces just as much skepticism in me as the striking lack of impressive verification.

In my lucid dreams--whether bogus OBEs or retrievals--the events are alarmingly predictable.  We are normally less alert in our dream state.  So our dream people seldom launch into long intelligant rants because our unconscious is generally incapable of such creative spontaneity in the dimmer consciousness of the dream state.   In my lucid dreams, I often find myself under pressure to deliver a long discourse.  I always resist before succumbing because I can't think "on my feet" nearly as well in the dream state as I can in waking reality.  From my reading, the relatively passive nature of "guides" and other astral characters seems to signal their status as constructs of the projector's imagination rather than as independent minds capable of rapid in depth communication of material that the projector could never conjure by his own spontaneity.  

But there seem to be exceptions.  Swedenborg responds to a request to visit a business man's deceased friend.  When ES makes contact, he receives a torrid flow of communication that reveals the last conversation between the 2 friends in great detail.  These details are later confirmed.  In my view, ES's astral contact establishes a standard that we should look for in genuine contacts.  Despite the telepathic nature of the communication, rapid creativity is possible.  For ES, astral states seem just as heightened in their level of awareness as normal waking consciousness.  

I wonder if there is dream research of which I am unaware that might help us assess the genuineness of alleged astral travel.  In my lucid dreams, I can experience a variety of odors and the touch of my dream people's hands. But in my normal dreams,  I rarely experience a variety of odors or tastes or a sense of touch through body contact.  The better we grasp the limits of dream states, the better equipped we might become to discern the genuiness of OBEs and astral contacts.  

Don

Don, I forgot to say that no matter our differences of beliefs, I find comfort in knowing that you are still looking for answers and therefor not entrapped by fixed ideas and a closed mind.
My heartfelt love and well wishes to yourself and those who are doing good work at "your" church. I hope you all find what you are looking for.
Joe

Don
Your questions about how to differentiate lucid dreams from OBE's are good. I think the problem is that we all keep asking questions we haven't developed the perceptual abilities to answer yet.  

Like, maybe in order to answer that we need to be at the same level of understanding DNA research is at today: libraries of sequences that can be studied by BLAST...impossible until the invention of the computer. Whereas, in this area of conciousness, we are really still at the stage where Miescher takes the puss-filled bandages and discovers and names nuclein (1868)...and it took about 75 years after that to get to the idea it carried genetic information. Scientific work on OBE's just started.

Look how much work Rhine did to put ESP on the scientific map, and even now it isn't well-accepted (I think). But your alternative explanations to retrievals always seem to me to assume and accept the idea that ESP is real.

What is Charles Tart up to these days? I  would think he has asked the same question you have.

Or what if, in the final analysis, conciousness is some kind of force field and there is no difference between lucid dreams and OBE's. Yeah, before we answer the question, we need to say what conciousness is.

Don:

Regarding predictability, I've experienced things during retrievels that were completely a surprise. For example, here's a retrieval I shared before. One night while meditating I saw the face of a man, and he seemed to be in pain and needed help. It occurred to me that perhaps he needs to be retrieved.  The image I saw of him didn't last, so I imagined myself speaking to him for a short bit. Before I knew it I found myself standing next to him by a cliff that was by an ocean. I spoke to him in retrievel terms. He jumped into the ocean where a bunch of rocks could be found. I jumped in after him. I spoke to him while submerged under water. I got the impression that he committed suicide by jumping off the cliff. Suddenly we were out of the water and standing at the top of the cliff again. Suddenly, to our left, accross a bay, that was connected to the ocean we jumped into, the image of Jesus appeared. Gold light emanated from him and filled the landscape. Not in rays like one would expect, but in swirrels, minature waves. The man I was trying to help forgot all about me, and floated to where the image of Jesus was in a timeless way. I say timeless, because he got to where Jesus was without having to float quickly.

This was before I seriously tried to find out what Christ is about, so it was a surprise that the image of Jesus appeared during this experience.

This was early on during my retrievel history. I didn't try to obtain verifiable information like I had during other retrievels. What took place was too surprising to worry about verifiable evidence. It didn't take long before it wasn't needed at all.

I agree that a person should find a way to make certain that what he or she experiences is bonified, rather than imagined.

Hi Dave

Yeah deliriants are weird. I had high fevers as a child and I have tended to stay away from anything that might recreate those times things flew around the room and I could not stop them....Why couldn't I stop them?  

What makes me able to tell delirium from normal waking...or "correct" spelling from incorrect? (my brother once claimed he read that correct grammar and spelling were invented so we could tell the upper classes from the lower, though the consistency the rules create is useful). Maybe if I knew I could apply it to the question of what is the difference between lucid dreams and OBE's is.

So much of regression is personal. People have an experience that changes them or changes how they experience life. Maybe there is no verifiable data. But there is an effect (aha! a vote for the force field). Once there was someone and I thought he was the love of my life. I was really wrong! but before I found that out, a couple of things happened. One night, lying in bed snuggled up, he asleep and I not.  I developed a moment of irrational fear that he would stab me. I got really scared. I finally calmed down and went to sleep and that was that. Never told any one about that. I couldn't say why, just a passing paranoia. He did have a hunting knife, an interest in knives, but there was no reason to have that experience. Another time, a couple of years later, we were having an argument (and I don't  drink or smoke) and my perception of the room was altered for a minute or two. I could almost see someone else where he stood or something like that. And I couldn't see the room. When I talked about it, it went away. OK. time goes by, he dumps me, we never meet again, live far apart. (I did have one strange experience with a knife but in another context and it did not involve him.) But one day I accidentally discover something. Now he was smart. But he refused to finish college. So I'd never expect him to co-author a book. But he did. on Italian switchblades. (now you can play the twilight zone music). It was something that hit me . Probably boring to anyone else. But that is as close as I have been to a regression. Not sure I want to learn more yet. See it is all personal. I do wonder, do I kill him or does he kill me, way back whenever. And if I could change the story, would I have to meet him in this life?

Hi Lucy-
As I've said a good many times, I truly believe that all of us, from the dullard out there mopping the hog wallow to the genius scientist hogging the spotlight, have all the required experiences for complete enlightenment and entry into Nirvana. BUT I also note that very often the experiences are misunderstood, argued with, rejected, trivialied or simply discarded because we aren't ready yet.

So you've had a spontaneous manifestation of some kind of spook, and from other experiences you've sensed that your life is more than a random series of blind choices. That implies that there's nothing wrong with your psychic apparatus.

Instances that we tend to miss are the little synchronies, such as reaching for the phone to call your best bud, only to find that she's already there calling you. Or the ability to discover a parking space precisely where and when needed. And then there's the famous injunction to "watch out what you wish for" because you are going to get it. Or gettng into a justified snit at somebody and having the street lights blink out as you drive past them.

Other things that we tend to miss are the moments of understanding as some obscure notion all of a sudden falls together and makes sense. Spinning around your room is a nice demonstration that there's more than the physical world. Of course we argue about it later because we can't scrape it off the walls and sell it, nor are visions going to fill your stomach. And in this way, we take a prodound experience and talk it to death, trivalize its import and abandon its message.

The people that were on that site evidently grossly OD'd on their elixers, as evidenced by blacking out. However the geometric experiences and recollections that placed them in historically prior locations all tend to suggest that the only reason we don't have such experiences all the time is because we intentionally tune them out. Most who published their experiences have also discovered that a just barely sufficient dose is likely to produce a state similar to Myer's description of Hell. - Its harmless, does not take away self control, and I found it overwhelming, dramatically intrusive, unpleasant and painful - rather like being strained through a sieve. I find that fascinating! I'm tinkering with an explanation, but am not there yet.

Maiby I shud werk on a knew prudocall.
:-)
dave

8-)Hi Guys,

This retrieval process mystifies me, why would souls be lost in the great blue yonder unable to find their path to the afterlife? In my nde  (not death experience) my awareness immediately went to the light, like a moth to and incandescing lamp.

In addition, Lucy you must cease from being so suspicious about others and just let the forum flow my dear.

alan

Hi,

Looking at your experience with this author-fellow, Lucy---and using hind-sight and slow motion-
you said you  'developed a fear.'  :) That sounds like you're acknowledging that the fear built up in stages, perhaps from a simpler, less sinister base of sensing his interest in knives,  even sensing that he was keeping his interest secret from you. Then your Interpretor took over and the turned it into a TV-type suspense mystery: will he use his knife on me--?  Good grief, Lucy, that sounds like something I would do.

If so, it would seem that any 'protocol' would have to emphasize staying close to the original impulse of knowing, before the 'developing' begins. Maybe the original impulse is always a subject and not a verb. (I don't know. I'll have to wait until my next experience to  test that.)

Another maybe in seeking the protocol--maybe some of us have overly reactive Interpretors that have been conditionned by prior events. Are all Interpretors 'the voice of truth', or the voice of as they see it? Does the perceiver's prior life affect their Interpretor? If so, Interpretor cannot be part of protocol until it gets its act cleared up.

I know hind sight cannot be part of a protocol--   ;) I was just kidding in that.  But the slow-mo seems absolutely necessary to catch the impression before Interpretor does.

Is this allowed, to keep Interpretor out of the equation?

Hi Alan  :),

I don't know what state your soul was in before it got blasted by the Light of God during your NDE, but those souls that get caught and need retrievals are in a sorry state.
They have many reasons for not feeling they can get into 'heaven'/ the afterlife--

perhaps they don't even know their bodies were dead,
perhaps they carried great guilts that make them feel inelligible for 'heaven,'
perhaps they've been threatened so repeatedly by hellfire lectures that they fear going on the journey...etc.

And those are just some situations where a soul might need help.

Bets

recoverer wrote on Jan 14^th, 2008 at 8:17pm:

I agree that a person should find a way to make certain that what he or she experiences is bonified, rather than imagined.

 I agree as well, but at the time, it's rather limiting to want and to expect this to come in only in a very left brain kind of way.  

  As you have mentioned before using different words and expressions, sometimes our feelings are a good indicator of the truthfulness, and expansiveness of a particular experience and consciousness state.  Like your night in Heaven experience, why would you doubtfully question the veracity of same, if you were so filled with joy, peace, and deep knowing that it was truthful?

 Feelings are rather hard to quantify, measure, and label precisely, and so those who are constantly looking for verification in both their own Retrieval endeavors, and in relation to others, may only rarely find what they are looking for.  Sure, there is hard core verifiable data out there to collect, but not everyone is equipped to consistently provide it, because oft that depends a good part on their innate balance between Yin-Yang, Feminine-Masculine, and Right brain-Left brain aspects.

 I've experienced a lot of more left brain type verifications in relation to guidance, this is because i've had a lot of "precognitive" psychic experiences.    But at the same time, i'm not worried about verification because i trust more than not at this point.

 That trust, faith, and belief in, is something that Jesus himself talked quite a bit about the importance of if one wanted to open up to Kingdom of Heaven within/without.    He didn't approach others like Don does saying constantly, "you must be skeptical of everything, must question everything and only believe after you get material, left brain specific, hard data verifications on your experiences."  

 Sure, he advised using discrimination, and he didn't tell us to throw out the left brain aspect, but he never advised to concentrate on it.   The left brain's job is to perceive and act upon the differences in Creation.    And since the physical dimension is so polarized and so based on differences (too much so), the left brain can become very materially minded, very narrow and overly critical in nature.  

 Sometimes to gain a balance, we have to temporarily shift more to the right brain and Heart aspect, and (only temporarily) give up that super critical, concentrate on differences, side of us.  

Sometimes we have to get more in touch with our feeling nature, especially us men and maybe especially American men and some others (many cultures degrade the Feminine and the feeling nature, but certain ones are more brutal than others in smashing it out of young boys.)

Once we have learned the state of "Heartness", of a more pure right brain approach, then we can go back and ever more merge the the left and right brain, head and heart aspects.  

 One of the differences between Jesus and spiritual/religious teachers of his day who for the most part, many did not like him one iota, was that Jesus was in touch with his Feminine feeling nature, and better yet was very balanced and merged between the two.  

Whereas the Pharisees, Sadducee's, Scribes, etc. many seemedl over polarized to the Masculine, and operated too much from the left brain aspects of self.    Too structured and rigid, and Yang/Masculine if overly concentrated on can become too structured.   Yin/Feminine is more flowing and receptive, we don't want to become purely Yin, but we ever need a balance between same.

 Don, i don't mean to say this in a judgmental way (i'm not feeling any ill feelings towards you when i say this), but i sense that you are way too overly polarized to the masculine and to the left brain, and in regards to certain approaches and emphasis's,  you are not exactly teaching what Jesus himself taught.  
If you are a student of same, shouldn't you have a similar emphasis and attitude?   I feel that if you got more in touch with your receptive feeling and Feminine nature, and foster a greater balance, you would understand that one doesn't have to have verifications only in a data, left brain kind of way, that one can definitely feel the truth or not of an experience via their feeling nature if they are clearly receptive and balanced enough.

But, it helps a person to have a belief in this beforehand, this helps to open them up to that kind of reality and way of being.   You don't absolutely need it, as some of Albert's experiences have shown, but it definitely does help on average and in a more consistent sense.

Alan McDougall wrote on Jan 15^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

8-)Hi Guys, This retrieval process mystifies me, why would souls be lost in the great blue yonder unable to find their path to the afterlife? In my nde  (not death experience) my awareness immediately went to the light, like a moth to and incandescing lamp. In addition, Lucy you must cease from being so suspicious about others and just let the forum flow my dear. alan

Hi Alan, have you read anything here about retrievals? self retrievals as well are important to read about. There are some resources at the top of the page to explain it in general.

PUL is an important feature of retrievals, so retrievals are not in conflict with what was taught to love one's brother, or be their keeper.
It is human nature to want to help each other, is the basis of the PUL factor in retrievals. most often, a sudden death can be confusing, such as disaster areas. that is where a retriever can assist.
most retrievers do not want to talk about what they do. they don't want to be misperceived so its the same with doing good works. u don't go around telling people how you do this as it looks like you want kudos or something. it's not like that with retrievals. it really acts to open the heart chakra, just to do a few even. so it helps the retriever to grow in compassion.
I have an example of Cami, a teenager. she was in a depressive state. I think she was murdered. the depressive state kept her from finding the light and gravitating to it.
when the retriever comes in they distract the state of depression by the PUL factor. their mind focus's on the retriever for a few moments, then nonphysical helpers standing by, who were not able to get her attention, due to heavy emotions, they slip in and assist her to a better place. Cami had also blocked out the experience as it was too shocking to remember, and we even do this when we are physical. we block out what is too difficult to look at. and the reason that Cami's attention could be gained, is she had not been aware of her transition, so shocking and quick it was.
to her, she was still alive, physical, in her mind, but something had happened, like amnesia. since I am a physical being, my vibrations could be felt by her and I could distract her just long enough from the glooms, so these others could move in and she wouldn't be so alone.
I made a deep heart connection with this little lass. the heart knows its real. cannot provide facts, yet I did talk to some guides afterwards who answered my questions where Cami lived in life. I was told south Dakota, and shown a map of a school she attended and I did find the school on a map later and the general area she traveled between school and home. but as I said, after a real retrieval, you awaken feeling like a MILLION bucks! a lighter heart because there was an experience of PUL, and any experience of love changes a person, makes them feel better about themselves even. my guides gave me this one because I knew about how a teenage girl can feel, having raised two of them.
so really, tracking her down was a possibility but very time consuming and nobody to prove anything to, really. I'm not sure some of my retrievals are anything more than training for me, but I Cami was real and the boy in the alley was real too. and a maintenance man or fireman, that was real.

some of the others, I developed a thesis I was projecting my availability to guides in my way as it's necessary to ask for guides to do these..at least for me. except for the fireman. I didn't sense a guide that time. theres exceptions to every rule.

I think if you want to be a retriever you must project your availability out there and it will be seen. your particular pattern will draw to you particular retrievals; guidance knows what suits you. you must project a deep desire to assist as this will be be picked up as a prayer would. I've done many more self retrievals than on others. This are like suddenly remembering childhood truama, and even remembering another life.

so they are NOT lost souls. we just speed up soul evolvement through an act of nudging it along a little quicker with the PUL.

Greetings Don and Posters,

'Protocol:
3 a formal or official record of scientific experimental observations.
• a procedure for carrying out a scientific experiment or a course of
medical treatment.'

Maybe the reluctance to establish a protocol for retrieving is just that, as recoverer said, there are always surprises.

As few as I've done, i find some have happened as soon as I got quiet, others deep into early a.m. sleep. Some have developed without my recent intention, some I requested and they came quickly.

Since we are still explorers in 'new' territory, perhaps the extent of guidance here has already been given us in writings of Moen etc. Any further expectations might limit, rather than expedite, the process.

If you're teaching through rhetorical questions, don, maybe you could give us what you think would be a good start and see if we can work with that?

Betson

Bets

Interesting question. How do you catch your thoughts before the interpretor sets in...Hmmm. I recall cutting my hand a little, sort of watching it happen (I dropped a real glass in the sink and tried to catch it). Before it hurt it was kind of interesting...maybe something like that?

The incident with the guy was, ahem, a few years ago (and not too far north of Chapel Hill) and I had no concious clue about Interpretor. The night of the fear incidence, what I meant was that boom! the fear seemed to appear out of? nowhere. The problem with the entire sequence was that while my experience of it was highly meaningful to me, there is no way to show anyone else how it struck me the way it did.

So how to carry that over to distilling the essence of lucid dream vs OBE....I don't know. But you do gotta watch that Interpretor.

The following was in the paper, and it occurs to me that it is an excellent study in how perception occurs in the culture. There is some dynamic equillibrium between individual and culture. What's really going on here? But that is the same question we are asking...

US to study bizarre medical condition
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MORGELLONS_CDC?SITE=MAQUI&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-01-16-18-45-48

What CDC says, or doesn't say
http://www.cdc.gov/unexplaineddermopathy/

it is so exciting to find something unexplained like this. and maybe we can see where an answer comes from.

[Betson: ] "If you're teaching through rhetorical questions, don, maybe you could give us what you think would be a good start and see if we can work with that?"
_________________________________________________

Let's begin with an obvious but neglected starting point--the potential for a dialogue with an astral guide who takes the initiative and guides the conversation.  The characters in our dreams can seldom sustain anything like an illuminating dialogue for long.  They are constructs of our imagination and, in the sleeping state, we are normally far less aware and rational than in our waking state.  From my reading of books on astral travel, the so-called guides are predictably passive in a way that might be expected if they mere constructs of our imagination.  Robert Bruce reports a puzzling ineptness of his spirit OBE contacts when he tries to ask them about the details of their discarnate lives.  To determine if these guides are real and independent of our imagination, we must explore their capacity to provide extensive lectures which transcend our priior preconceptions.  We must determine whether and to what extent they can remain engaged with us during ever increasing question and answer sessions.  The guides should be able to help us establish the right protocols for more meaningful verification.  Their failure to do so should be construed as the need of our unconsious to protect the integrity of our fantasy's illusion.  

The case is analogous to the so-called House of Knowledge in Focus 27 that allegedly contains the answers to the universe's important questions.  Many have claimed to have explored this awesome house, but have failed to advance the cause of verifiable knowledge one iota.  Astral explorers often unwittingly provide the ammunition that shoots down the legitmacy of their claim to explore other dimensions with real spirits.  If they are truly engaged in an honest quest for afterlife truth, endless experiments can be devised to probe the limits of new knowledge to be gained from spirit guides.  So far the deafening silence of these "guides" on issues that might advance verifiable knowledge is eloquent testimony to the human capacity for self-delusion.

Don

Hi Don,

I don't think we have enough knowledge of the afterlife yet to know whether your comments are valid, because

A) If guides are channels to Great Cosmic Mind, their nature may be limited to whatever task is at hand, rather than their having access to whatever bits we are curious about at the moment.  Such a channel might be a guide to specific knowledge rather than to the Infinite Storehouse, ----  'guide' as more a 'mechanical ' concept rather than an anthropological one that includes all Mind, I mean.

B)  As a painter I know how it feels to have vividly seen inspiring grandeur and then be totally incapable of remembering enough of it to 'repeat it' on canvas. I expect that revelations of knowledge from the afterlife might also have that characteristic of dissappearing when brought back within Earth's heavier pull.

C) No one can answer to a 'should', because it refers to neither time nor physical being; 'should' does not exist. And if we change your 'shoulds' to 'needs to', is it only from your viewpoint that such a need exists? What if others don't share that need ? (For example, "The guides should be able to help us establish the right protocols....")

I accept that my laissez faire approach to gaining knowledge of the afterlife is too passive. I'm in awe of those here and elsewhere who are actively, more agressively pursuing spiritual experience. They do it to gain experience though, rather than to plot out theories---How does one plot out Infinity?

IMHO we have to take what we are given and try to use it with loving care and consideration. We're definitely on a quest, but a quest isn't provided with maps.

Love, Bets

Bets.

Of course, I may have overlooked factors that make my proposed experiments impossible.  But this impasse can only be determined by pressing the limits of what can be discovered.  Let the guides explain why proposals like mine are unfeasible or undesirable.  Modern science progresses through testing, falsification, and verification.  Attempts to rationalize our evasion of this approach just condemn astral exploration to a realm of blind faith and exciting subjective experiences that may nor may not reflect afterlife survival.  I think the stakes are too high to retreat to an insulated ghetto mentality.  Over the years, I have been struck by how seldom the popular New Age radio program "Coast to Coast" features guests with any capability to engage the research of mainstream scientists and other investigators.  Listening to that program is like listening to a suspense-filled movie.  One feels no need to take anything seriously once the "buzz" of the sensationalism wears off.  

I don't use ghetto rhetoric to offend, but as an accurate description of a major barrier to knowledge that afflicts churches as as well as the New Age movement.  My sermons routinely offend conventional sensibilities by challenging sacred cows and, so far, the response has been overwhelmingly positive.  I believe that playing it safe guarantees spiritual stagnation.  The downside is that to be truly helpful one must take risks that sometimes backfire.  Unintended occasional offense is a necessary evil to help fill seekers with wonder and help them engage spiritual issues with the childlike wonder of a beginner's mind. Insulation from a sincerely critical eye generally guarantees a cultic mentality that unwittingly associates rationality with the misleading agreement of likeminded people.  When I was a boy, I marvelled that I was born into a  home that knew all the currently available spiritual truth.  Then it dawned on me that mine was a universal attitude that seduced believers into cultic conformity.

Let me share my favorite cartoon.  A fish is leaping out of the ocean and frantically pointing down to the water below.  Another fish lurks below with a puzzled expression on its face.  The leaping fish points down and says, "That's the stuff I'm talking about."  

Don