I ran across this site two weeks ago and was attracted to it as having some explanatory benefit on some things in my life.

Several years ago I was healed of a likely fatal condition by the silent prayer of a Christian Scientist employee.  The condition vanished completely and was replaced with perfect normalcy.  

Since then I have become relatively proficient in using the concepts of Christian Science to address everyday problems.  It really works and is very predictable and reliable.

The basic idea of CS is that we are existing in a dream (the Adam dream) and because mortal existence is only a dream any bad condition we experience can be instantly healed.  We do have a unique identity but this is not it.

The idea that everything is a belief is an important feature of CS as well as the body of afterlife knowledge.

I have had numerous instant healings where obvious physical conditions vanished and were replaced with perfect normalcy, as well as a sense of peace that is truly wonderful.

I just got a Moen book and am about half way through it.  I see no reason to doubt anything being described.  

However,  there is an assumption that this existence actually has some concrete existence, while level 27 seems to be totally controlled by thought.  Since level 27 is very human like, is seems that this existence is necessary to program the intelligences in human beliefs, without which level 27 would have no organization or meaning.

Christian Science bases its demonstrations on the existence of a perfect spiritual being and the unreality of a mortal physical being.  Nothing in CS claims that the perfect spiritual being looks like a human, but instead says that when we see God we will know him because we will be like him.  It teaches that an anthromorphic God is a major problem of human belief systems.

I may see a lot more as I continue reading, and am throwing this out to see what others think of the assumption that this existence has some concrete reality.

I have been strongly attracted to the idea of a Singularity as propounded by Kurzweil.  As a programmer and electronic designer, I like to describe things as parts of organized systems.

Christian Science describes itself as the Comforter described by Jesus, who said he had to leave before the Comforter could come.  The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, which is also Unlimited Love and Diving Mind.

Sort of a rambling post, but it expresses the questions that have occurred to me at this state of my understanding.

I obviously attempt to define everything from the basis of my practice and understanding of Christian Science, since it does allow me to avoid the problems most humans often seem helpless in the face of.

Is CS a pre-technical manifestation of the ideas found here?  It was discovered in 1866 and had explosive growth in the early parts of the last century.  

Hello REI:

It doesn't sound like you rambled.

I think in terms of energy. The energy with which we create and awareness are two inseperable parts of the same reality. Our thoughts direct how our energy is used. For example, if we think fearful thoughts, we'll experience fear.  If we think of a specific kind of visual imagery, we'll create it as we think about it.

The physical World is a place of creative thought energy, just like the spirit World. Thought energy at the physical level vibrates at a slower rate than the spirit World.  Things have worked out so that the overall rules of the physical World make things less flexible than they are in the spirit World. Regarding the overall rules, some come from the divine beings that were involved with creating this World, some come from us.

Sometimes consensus realities are created, sometimes individual realities. They last for how ever long they are needed or in some cases, not needed but clinged to.

Or another way to put it, sometimes people speak of physical reality and spirit World reality as if they are two completely seperate things. This isn't true, even though in some significant ways they manifest differently.

Where does Christian Science stand on the issue of eternal
torture for nonbelievers?
If it DOESN'T believe in that, if it is Annihilationist (the most
humane possibility in Christianity for the fate of nonbelievers!)
then I'd say you have a pretty benign belief system at least.
So what's the story on this issue???

B-inquiring mind

B..u should do an exploration to see if there really is a hell. ask them if your name is on the list for intakes. if it is, call me, I'll spring you.  :)

Rei, I'm in agreement with R. and I tend to think in terms of organization like you. this is like to say we effect each other whether we wish to be affecting each other or not.

is there something made in concrete around here in C1? (C1=waking everyday consciousness level one) defined as limited consciousness intent on having a physical experience, in a body.

it can't be concrete or solid if it deteriorates through physics. the other world is eternal, but it is in a state of movement and change.

so if you say we are in a dream as it was taught to you, you can believe this is so, but at the same time, it is ourselves who place meaning on our lives here. we are so good at placing meaning on something here, that we even place meaning on things that perhaps we shouldn't...like drugs..etc.

I think if we do not place meaning on our lives, and in addition are atheists, or hard and fast agnostics, we can get in trouble by losing interest in the meaningless dream. It is these that become hardened in the heart area. so I would say take our lives serious, but not overly serious, while knowing it leads to something more while examining this dream world.

I think what CS may be trying to say is a dream is partial reality; in that case I'd agree, along with the thought that my higher self remains at home, while thrusting down a finger, (me) what TMI calls a probe, so I can get my experience within physical and carry my fruits back to my disc/overself/home.

thus far, what a trip. I don't think I'll be able to explain how I got myself into so many jams, and still came out smelling ok. I have a feeling they already know what I've been up to.  :) simply because, we can tune into home, from right here.

Fubar

Christian Science does not believe in eternal punishment, and its understanding of this is like the story of Max the psychopathic psychiatrist - people make their own heaven or hell.  CS believes there is a period of probation after death during which people work out things left unresolved in this experience.

CS teaches the need to find the spiritual meaning of the information in the Bible, and specifically teaches avoidance of taking it too literally.

There is no clergy in CS and Sunday services are conducted by Readers elected for fixed terms from the membership.  One Reader reads the Bible, and the other reads correlative passages from the Christian Science Textbook, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures.  A Reader also selects Bible passages and reads them as part of the service.  There are three hymns and a solo as part of the hour long service.  These services are amazingly uplifting.  

For some hymns sung at my church where I am a Reader, go to www.csvincennes.org and click on hymns.  I put them out as MP3 files and they will load and play.

The subjects were created by the founder of the movement, Mary Baker Eddy and repeat about twice a year.  The actual passages to deal with the subject are selected by staff at the CS Publishing Society, which puts out a Quarterly with the lessons in it.  One of the subjects is Everlasting Punishment - the lesson teaches that there is no such thing.

The church is led by Practitioners.  To be a practitioner one must submit verified cases of healing real problems.  Once they are approved, they may be listed in the monthly CS Journal.  To remain in the journal, they must make their entire living from their healing practice.  They usually charge from $15 to $40 per day and usually have several dozen cases at any one time.  Single call healings are the norm.  This free market system removes the financial compensation issue from committees and church politics.  Those who cannot make a living from their practice to either improve or drop out.

As far as I know, CS does not believe in reincarnation.  God created each instance of us and one trip through this experience is all we get.  I am working on seeing that issue clearly since so much of Moen's stuff is past lives.  There is the Christian concept of second death for those who never get it figured out after they pass on.

CS teaches that we existed before we came into this experience and continue to exist after it.  We don't know what we did before we got here.  What we are supposed to do while we are here is as much good as possible.

Added thoughts:  The concept of Angel Messages is big in Christian Science.  They come as thoughts and guidance for all sorts of reasons.  Learning to listen is a big part of being able to demonstrate healing.

Another concept is Aggressive Mental Suggestion, or hypnotism.  Christian Scientists are strongly admonished to protect themselves continually from being taken in by this sort of projected mortal thought.

Dear REI,

As to whether CS is a pre-technological manifestation of what you find here, I think you'll have to discover that answer yourself, since as far as I've seen, no one else knows enough about CS to try to compare it with anything.   :)

What strikes me is your understanding and your way of talking about Spirit is what is so valued here.  that's what's wonderful about this place, that for all our background differences, we have found (or are actively seeking to find) more spirit in our lives.

Thanks for joining everyone here in that ! I hope you'll be here to participate for a long time!

Bets

Hi,

My take on this, for what it is worth is that our physical bodies are real, not illusions (pinch yourself and you will feel the reality).

However, if we could observe our bodies with total perspective we would see our material bodies as beautiful, translucent seething localities of condensed energy. "I am the light fantastic"

Alan

Happy New Year and thanks for the responses:

As Jesus was reported to have said in John 6:63:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

One of the most powerful and useful affirmations in CS is:  God is the only power.

When you pinch yourself, your beliefs make it hurt.  Your body has has no reality beyond what you believe it to have.  There have been countless examples of xray and cat scan images which showed problems, followed by subsequent images showing impossible changes to perfect normalcy after a CS Healing.

For anyone interested in a modern take on CS, Spiritual Healing In A Scientific Age by Peel is available in many libraries and on Amazon used books.  For a quick take, read from page 16 to the end of the chapter and then read the story strarting on page 54 for around ten pages.  Peel was an advanced CS Practitioner.

We all have beliefs that totally define our mortal existence.  Believing in an all powerful God who is unlimited Divine Love, who fills all space, whose Spirit can be manifested to solve any problem of any type, allows amazing things to happen in our lives.

You don't have to become a Christian Scientist to be healed by it, but the experience and sense of peace and elevated thought will probably turn you in a new direction.  It may be like a sense of level 27 while here on earth.

I finished Moen's book 2 and am waiting for delivery of 3 & 4 and his course.

Some questions:

Do people reincarnate only from level 27?

Is it a choice to return or some automatic process?

Can reincarnation be caused by the wishes or prayers of others who see a need for the person to repeat the earthly course, or to be able to join them at level 27?

In CS we can read the thoughts of others as we work to heal them, and we can read the thoughts of others that have bearing to what we are involved in.  We are admonished to not do anything that we are not asked by them to do, as Moen describes.

Comments on the reincarnation questions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Hi Rei, thanks for the link. CS looks like good reading, I totally agree about the body. it seems to be but a mirror of our beliefs, and if our beliefs are distorted, the body outpictures disease and the same disharmoney which is in the mind/heart.
however we all struggle with health issues and the rising cost of health care.

thats why I like CS and alternative healing philosophies that spring up. it points to a better way.  U asked about reincarnation I assume because u r openminded and also u said CS does not say much on the subject.

personally all I can say about focus 27 is it seems to be like America is to the world, a melting pot of all races and people, like a many mansions place, and I wouldn't be able to tell you whether it is a place where a soul would re-enter physical life, but sounds logical that spirit life would be a-coming and a -going there. as far as I can tell theres quite a bit of guidance trainees, people getting healed up, activity and movement, a lot like here, but like theres no need to sleep 8 hours of the day, so it's a continuous type of consciousness with no breaks, so it's speeded up type of living.

in the hard core BST of 23 thru 26 I believe there would be less movement in consciousness and here is why Monroe coined the term "stuck."  or maybe Bruce coined it. feel free anybody to correct my suppositions.
the term stuck scares some people, but theres another way to look at what is stuck, or not moving. not moving to it's potential. we can observe, for instance, right here in physical proximity, that people are stuck, to mean, we will repeat ourselves and nothing comes into our pattern of thought and behavior that is really "new."

So it's easy to learn the art of retrieval, as the first thing I say to a stuck person is to confirm they can stay where they are at or they can go with the guides somewhere else, this gives them confirmation of their free will choice without forcing the issue. this lets them know they are loved just as they are too.

about reincarnation; it seems it can be automatic for the younger ones, and later more choice in the matter is developed with the more experiences gained in physical area. the more developed souls do not choose all by themselves..it is in groups that souls arrive life after life. they draw up plans and intentions and then dive in, meet as if by accident, but not really and do their best to fullfill their intentions for whatever type of life or focus they end up in, and the parents are part of their group most often, as I see it.

some of the more evolved souls will wait years of linear time for just the right conditions to become apparent for what they wish to be accomplishing, and they have earned those conditions and are not forced to take just any life or body opportunity. The rule of thumb is noncoercement and PUL operating, and order of a divine nature on focus 27 and higher.

personally I have cleaned up my karma with my parents this life and I accomplished what I came here for so I have more choices now to explore above focus 27. this condition the Christians used to call being reborn. only I'm in the new age now, so can't call it that.

Also I surmise focus 27 is where all the guides and helpers are trained to navigate the lower astrals planes and do retrievals. my message personally after my karma was cleared, was to announce it is a benevolent universe operating.
I asked for proof and it was given. then all those who announce this, and there are many with me, even yourself, we will not be believed, it is so.
but thats why we're here, to announce it anyway.  :)

thank you for your post and for your good work.

Thanks LaffingRain.

I just tried the method in the back of Bruce's second book on a ghost, and ran into a seeming intense and angry reaction from a black sheep in the family who is apparently using this presence in his ongoing stealing, cheating, and lying behavior.  

The ghost may be involved either as the perpetrator or willing victim, it is hard to tell since the wrath is so strong.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this.

you may have to ask for guides to assist you on this one Rei and the general rule of thumb before doing a retrieval is to generate some PUL beforehand by thinking of a time when you felt love. then if you let the PUL come in and go out to the angry one it should get his or her attention and the guides (sometime cannot see them well) will take over from there. my first retrieval I spent a long time talking to the retrievee before getting their attention fastened on me.  Once they notice you, it tends to break up the negative emotion so the nonphysical guides can step in.

Hi Rei-
My background in this area was from "Science of Mind" - essentially the same as CS.

The fact that everybody believes in the same world does not mean that the world is a 'material structure".  All it means is that at some point we all get our heads together and agree to have comparable experiences in our dreams. I personally like the idea that we all participate in a Cosmic Consciousness, which is sort of the interface between God-as-Mind and People-as-Minds.

The simplest explanation for this world is simply that it is the most probable way to fit together all the parts of universe-stuff out of which everything was created. It is definitely not the only way to view reality, nor the only reality that can be viewed. In fact, each of us can create numerous other options as we daydream. This is how we predict the weather, as wll as what to do at work tomorrow. Fortunately, sometimes our predicted realities come close enough to the ones we experience to be useful. :-)

My personal opinion is that the spark of life in each of us is essentially from God, hence we are already holding two positions at once - one is as part of God's manifestation into the world, and the other is as individuals in the world who are returning to God. [smiley=engel017.gif]

dave

Hi,

Why would god give us a body that was an illusion? Jesus was born through the body of his mother marry. He died id terrible abject horror and pain. he had to eat  etc to survive just like you. God places us in real physical bodies gave us five senses to negotiate life with. This concept of the body being some sort of an delusion of the spirit would make god a liar the bible clearly sys we will inherit exalted bodies when we die.

Do not try to convince my beloved parents are unreal illusion. Go and speak to survivors of the holocaust and ask them if the hideous appalling horror, pain, sorrow, desperation and ice-cold fear of the gas death were the result of some wrong   perspective of reality. I reject this concept with the distain it deserves.

Alan

Alan McDougall wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2008 at 4:49am:

Hi, Why would god give us a body that was an illusion? Jesus was born through the body of his mother marry. He died id terrible abject horror and pain. he had to eat  etc to survive just like you. God places us in real physical bodies gave us five senses to negotiate life with. This concept of the body being some sort of an delusion of the spirit would make god a liar the bible clearly sys we will inherit exalted bodies when we die. Do not try to convince my beloved parents are unreal illusion. Go and speak to survivors of the holocaust and ask them if the hideous appalling horror, pain, sorrow, desperation and ice-cold fear of the gas death were the result of some wrong   perspective of reality. I reject this concept with the distain it deserves. Alan

 Guess it depends on what one defines as "real" and as illusion.   My personal take is that the body is real enough while we are temporarily using it, but not objectively real in the long run... or rather its our perception and beliefs about the physical which are off, and thus "unreal".  

What i define as real, is that which is eternal, such as spiritual Light.  

 The physical is a result of freewill, and Souls taking and existing in pure spiritual Light, and through unSource like choices, behavior, and creating, tempoarily manifesting and projecting what we call "physical".   But the physical will not always exist, unlike pure spiritual light, hence to me, ultimately the physical is not real.

 At the same time, i consider the physical body to be the Temple, and believe it should be treated with respect and harmonized with the mental and spiritual aspects of self...so that one can get beyond the illusionary perceptions, beliefs, and experiences of "physicality" which is just the dense, slow vibrating, and temporary part of the One Field of Consciousness.   I believe the vibratory patterns of what we term and label physical, can be speeded up again to the pure Light vibratory state, that which we were created from originally.  I believe Christ did this, and this is what caused the image of the Shroud of Turin to be formed, and is what is behind the Resurrection in the N.T. accounts.   This is a limitless and infinite Consciousness (pure Light), which still exists in and can be perceived in a so called "physical" manner by those who are still limiting their own consciousness and awareness.  

A "body" implies distinct location and thus implies limitation and that which is finite .  Perhaps our true and original selves are infinite and totally "bodiless", except to truly exist in what the Bible termed the body of Christ (which is universal Oneness with each other and with the Creator)?  

 Can pure Light exist in a body, a centralized and limited location?    No, all Light is blended into one another, and yet we can still somehow retain a unique and individual sense of self within that infinite Light.  

 So yes, ultimately speaking, the physical body and physicality and our current perceptions and beliefs about both, are unreal because they are temporal.  

Since you already addressed Christ: Christ didn't have to be born of a woman to come into this world, He did so because he wanted to help us, and to most effectively help us, he had to play by the rules of this illusionary game and conform to the collective illusionary beliefs.   He came to be a pure example and if he did not experience what we all experience, he would not have been much of an exemplar would he?   Imagine if he came in fully formed as the adult Yeshua seemingly out of nowhere?   How many people would really listen to his deeper message then?   They would have just bow down and worshiped him as a God, which is the last thing he would have wanted.   No, he said look at me, i came from what you came from and yet i have transcended this temporal, illusionary game and YOU CAN TOO.  

 Edgar Cayce's guides strongly hint that this Greater self, this Soul, Spirit Being/"Disc" did originally just manifest a fully formed physical image/projection (vehicle) originally to Retrieve his other selves, but found that this type of teaching didn't work to well for various reasons, some as cited above.   So It decided to limit it's fully divine awareness and become part of the Earth life system pattern as well in a more direct manner.  

 His guides hint that Christ's original participation in the creation of matter was in error, and that being a cause in this whole issue, both as a Spirit Being, and later as a physically incarnate personality, he had to totally transcend that which he helped manifest in error.  He, like so many of us, turned away from the Creator in the beginning, but was the first of those separating Children to fully return/merge with same again.  In giving up his little self will, to the Will of the Creator and the Creative forces and in living his life wholly for the benefit of others, he transcended the illusion game completely.   He now knows his original, limitless and infinite pure Light state of being, and yet still exists with that body image he was known for as "Jesus".  

 Really in some ways, its no biggy at all, since its really our true and original nature.  When all of us finally fully realize and live that, then the physical will melt away.   Until then, it serves a useful purpose, in the same way that suffering does... it reminds us of what we aren't and its an impetus to change ourselves back to that original state of being that the Creator imagined us in and as.

Alan,

Actually God gave us a perfect human body, and any manifestation otherwise is an illusion.  It is by removing this illusion and showing the truth that Christian Science silent prayer heals.  It is because sickness is an illusion that it can vanish instantly when the truth is seen, and the appearance of broken bones, swelling, etc. can be instantly replaced with perfect normalcy.

However, this body is not who we really are since we are spiritual, not material.

As a basic statement in CS would puts, There is no matter, all is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is all in all.  Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual.

“Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

We are limited by our need to see with the physical senses in this experience, but when we see Him as he is we will realize our true spiritual nature.

Jesus was born through the physical body of his mother Mary so we could see him and interact with him in this belief system.

Dick

About the physical existence as a dream: For the dreamer, the dream is reality. Until the awakening. I see this life on earth as a special focus of awareness, which can be called a dream, and it can be called believing in physical things. It might be that some people are better in dis-believing in it, so for them some miraculous things might occur, as the physical reality blends with other realities. When someone realizes that a lifetime in physical reality is only a brief period of the whole of one's existence, then it is like to awake from a dream, as all the bad things are put in perspective and relation to the greatness of the entireness of our existence.
With the beliefs it's a tricky thing. We can say our beliefs give the physical earth reality. But then, the same could be true for the belief in God. It seems we, our experiences, our perceptions, are always heavily influenced by our beliefs, not only in the physical world, until the difference of "the outer world-there" and "the inner world-here-me" has become meaningless, until there is no "here" and "there" anymore and no separation of the perceiver and the things perceived, because then there is no place for beliefs and interpretation anymore.

Spooky

another good thread. we're making some sort of record here.

wanted to share something I'm reading; take it or leave it. its just me trying to widen my understanding of physics, metaphysics and paranormal as well as instant healings.

The Tao of Physics:
exerpted from The Inner Life, by Leadbeater (1847-1934)
The quantum field is seen as the fundamental physical entity; a continuous medium which is present everywhere in space. Particles are merely local condensation of the field; concentrations of energy which come and go, thereby losing their individual character and dissolving into the underlying field. Thus non-material fields and matter are seen as one: the material emerges from and disappears into it's non-material origins.
____

this makes matter into non-matter and nonmatter into matter because we're talking about graduations of matter.
it's no more than saying that the body turns to dust, over time when the spirit is released from it. the illusion exists for the atheist that the only thing important is the solid body, all the atheist is saying is that they cannot accurately predict there is anything outside of the physical as they are relying on their 5 senses to tell them whats what.

the development and research into a dormant 6th sense then might turn a nonbeliever into a believer, that this world is like a dream, like a vision of something unreal, but only if this overview of which Spooky mentions, it's like hindsight and foresight at the same time to be developing greater awareness and/extending our sensory imput.

It seems that level 27 exists totally as thought, as well as the other levels and the activities of people going there.

Retrievals happen totally in thought as far as I understand what I have read so far.

From the descriptions of Moen books 3 and 4 it sounds like more will be revealed when I read them.  I have ordered them and they have shipped.  I should have them soon.

Levels are defined in human terms, since that is all we know.  It seems logical that the human experience is necessary to function in them.  There has to be a frame of reference to put order and structure and definition for thoughts to function within.

My descriptions of Christian Science are because of my actual experiences with healings I have had and situations where I have healed others.  I am sure the Truths of CS can be used by people here to improve their lives.  

It is the closest thing to a fearless religious belief that I have ever seen.  When I had my original healing, I had not been part of any organized religion for decades, but meditated regularly.

Disbelief in mortal problems is certainly a major part of CS, but experienced practitioners routinely overcome strongly held beliefs of disease and problems in those they treat with their silent prayer, bringing relief to the person with the problem no matter how strong their belief in the problem is.

Since I don't believe problems are real, I plan to stick with that and expect that whatever I learn here will only further improve my ability to maximize my human experience.

I don't want to overemphasize my own experience, since I am working on some major issues personally now.  I think CS just moves the issues to those of a higher level.  We all seek joy and freedom.  We all seek to do good and bring good to situations we are involved in.

I appreciate all the interesting comments I have read on this thread.

How much of the activity Moen describes goes on among those who post here?

Rei said  How much of the activity Moen describes goes on among those who post here?
____

thats hard to calculate as everyone at a different place of development. to estimate, you'd have to read the Retrievals and Partnered Exploration threads and add up the people there, then you would see the main thread has more posters. as well the people come and go, post one healing story, then move on. over the years of 7 now, I've met a small amount of retrievers in comparison with all who post here, yet I've met many more people who either recieve healings in the astral, or give absent healing, or practice some sort of healing technique of spiritual dimension.

this main thread appears as like a place where people come to get information because they are curious or they may have lost a loved one and need comforting; or they just want to share, or talk. the process of moving to "it's possible, to it's probable" appears as individualistic and can take much time to get to the accepting healing.

so where you are is a good place if healings are happenings, it's heartening to hear about it. We've been doing Partnered Exploration, and just recently on that thread a couple of people have broached the subject of doing a Partnered Retrieval, or a healing within that group. however, no one volunteered to be the subject, not to say that we won't do it again though.

the retrievals, personally, can appear to be just thought forms, as some of mine appeared this way, which causes doubt to set in as to authenticity, however, more than a few retrievals which occurred were way beyond experiencially what could be considered mere thought material.
I assumed in the beginning I was in training, with assistance and so it was baby steps first and doubt was part of to get to the truth side of it. when beginning, it is important to "go with it."

thanks for your sharing about CS, we should swap stories here sometime if you wish. love, alysia