Hi everyone,
first let me say "thank you" for all this PUL in this lovely conversation board :)

I am a bit confused about this "Karma thing". I see and hear the word, everywhere.

I am going to use myself as an example for all newbies and I hope to understand the messages being sent when you answer. I am here to learn from you okay.

Lets say Nanner was a very poor man in her previous life, Nanner hurt & killed people so he could have money. Nanner also stole future city planning information out of the city Hall and sold it to the next city about 10 miles down the road, inturn the city inwhich Nanner lived in lost a considerable amount of business and thus lots of businessman had to give up their stores and jobs were lost, people went hungry. Nanner died at the age of 49 of the Pest and didnt understand prior to being deceased "that he did something wrong which effected many peoples lives for the worse"..

Did Mr. Nanner reap bad Karma which he has to "balance out" in his next incarnation, or how does it corilate with his next life?

Thanks for any any all help - this is a brain burner for me...
Ms. Nanner  :)

;) You ask the hardest questions Nanner!

I'm no expert and karma is one of the slipperiest questions in Buddhism which even very senior teachers are cautious about, but I'll try some thoughts. Please anybody else come in if you think i'm off beam as I could easily be. The helicopter thread contains some perspectives too.

Go straight to the link below if you want more credible material.

First off karma seems to be a phenomenon that operates in our relative time based reality - at the absolute level nothing we do here can alter realities.

Karma seems in effect to be cosmic checks and balances coming into play.

There's no action that's inherently bad or good - which automatically creates negative or positive karma. Although there's many that take pretty heavy duty mental gymnastics to come up with circumstances where they could be for the greater good.

Actions mixing good and bad may in effect produce  mixed positive and negative karma.

Judging the likely outcome is difficult. For example sacrificing a few for a greater good might seem a good idea (that the positive might outweigh the negative), but it might ultimately turn out the opposite if say the result was to legitimise wrongful actions. e.g. use somebody for medical research and so save many more, but in doing so legitimise such research leading to suffering of many thousands from poorer countries.

By this argument you probably would suffer negative karma for hurting others for money. On the other hand the passing on of information might lead to good (as in the slight upset it caused might result in its being used for the benefit of many more than before), or the opposite if as in your case many suffered as a result of the theft.

Karma (in Buddhist terms) seems to be generated whether or not you knowingly create it. But intention is central. It's not in the end part of an explanation of how the cosmos works.

There are other causes of happiness and suffering in life as well as karma.

It's so difficult because to truly figure the consequences of any given action you have to consider all the dimensions/variables it will influence, and that's not easy - ref. the helicopter thread. A realised person is not influenced by karma i think (cautiously ?) not because they are somehow immune but because (a) at this level their actions will not generate negative karma (will be informed by compassion and wisdom) and (b) anyway are simultaneously not bound to this reality.

The karma for actions completed now may kick in almost immediately, but may not kick in for many lifetimes - there's the idea of karma 'ripening' as very complex chains of cause and consequence come together. Hitler for example could as I said have been a loon ranting on a street corner only for this.

Karma doesn't just apply to individuals, but also to families, companies, tons, counties, countries, races, planets and so on. It's an incredibly complex situation. Differing strands may come together in highly unpredictable ways.

The position for us ordinary punters seems to be that we can't really avoid creating karma, and that includes the negative variety. No matter how hard we try. Which is why it's regarded as wise to maximise our efforts to achieve realisation in this life since we never know what karma is stacked up there waiting to kick in next week, or in the next life or lives. (which could mind you of course be good)

Rule based living (as in Hinayana Buddhism, or as in conventional institutional religion) can only be an approximation to the complexity and highly relative nature of karmic issues in this reality. It nevertheless seems to be the best shot we have in this life. It's not going to keep us 100% clean, but it's got to help - there are actions that clearly do harm (thoughts, words, deeds) which unless avoided definitely will genrate negative karma.

The best bet is probably to get reading somebody more expert. Here's what looks like a decent source of web based information on karma:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level2_lamrim/initial_scope/karma/mechanism_karma_mahayana_presentati/mechanism_karma_01.html?query=karma

Have fun!

From a slightly different perspective, karma means "action". It refers to cause and effect. f you fail to put gas in your car, your karmic consqeuence is that it runs out of gas and stops. The cure for that karma is to put gas in the car. That's the simple case.

Motivations and such seem more complicated, but they actually are quite similar. If you are hung up on getting a gold watch for Xmas, then you will tend to shape your life in whatever way seems most likely to succeed in that regard. Given adequate time, you will acquire the gold watch. (In my clinic I occasionally find people who desired marriage, and who eventually got together after several intervening lifetimes. Same kind of thing.) The karmic consequences are that you will have changed the path of your life by being attached to the gold watch. That might be useful, or it might be an interruption of a more valuable activity. It's just a case and effect relationship.

With respect to moral events, to perform an immoral act means that either (1) you know no better and are ignoring that little inner voice that keeps trying to tell you not to do that, in which case your values are screwed up; or (2) you feel that you can do this, even though you know it is immoral, hurtful or whatever, in which case you are probably unaware of what you are doing in an ultimate sense, while trying for short term optimization, which is often why our values get screwed up. Both cases are errors in judgement.

The solution for errors is to stop making them. This is accomplished by first understanding that something doesn't work. (Examination of conscience.) Second, we have to own our actions, so we can repudiate them. (We confess our errors to one another.) Third, we abandon both the actions and their fruits. (Contrition.) Fourth, we do as much damage control as possible. (Penance.) And finally, we go on with life. Notice that this is essentially the Catholic ritual of confession and that it works quite well by separating us from the initial causal actions.

It is not necessary that you will have to experience everything you did to others. That misses the point. It is only necessary to understand what went wrong and that you alter your life style. As an example, we all were selfish brats as infants, and in early childhood we eventually learned that life works better when we respect the needs of others. It is not necessary to go back and relive the mistakes, like not going potty as Mom told us, nor must we relive  their consequences, like pooping our pants. We merely must change our outlook. Otherwise we'd have a lot of adults pooping their britches and crying for Mom because of some arcane connection.

The idea of "justice" has nothing whatsoever to do with karma. Justice is a human idea. The Hammurabbi "eye for an eye" is simply a way to feel better while gouging out your opponents organs because now you can have vengeance, satisfying your rage and hatred somewhat. Justice implies punishment, and punishment is the least useful way to change behavior. The way we larn to do better is generally by reinforcement from things that pay off, regardless of concepts of "justice".

Recall the Prodigal Son. The requirement to return to the Father (or your return to God) was merely to stop doing stupid things. All the pain and agony that we so often associate with that kind of reform is simply because we usually get pretty well beaten up ourselves when we are in the business of hurting others. The karmic aspect is that pissing people off causes us problems. That's not any metaphysical mystery.  

There is a connection between prior actions and life. If we act in an imoral manner, our actions will contain a seed of self-destruction. An example is the tyrant who seeks to impose peace through military attacks and warfare.  That act leads to a sense of personal establishment of a new self-status. But it is based on an error. It cannot survive.

If nothing is done, later on that part of the person's definition will lack validity, because it is based on error, and the error will tend to spread into related areas etc. This limits access to life. It appears that schizophrenia may be one of the results when the errors involve most of the self-definition of the actor. "I am the meanest SOB on earth and I am wonderful because I can tear the ears off my opponents." This puffed up idea may dominate life today, but is in error. It will cause later problems because the errors do not survive rebirth, leaving a person with defective and disjointed thought patterns which are related to the self-defined role of the prior life.

Those who reject the error and live a good life can restore access to life by rebuilding the parts that were damaged by errors. In one case I know of a person who participated in a murder, and later became a surgeon, in which capacity he daily saves lives, a compensatory action that has restored him to a good life.

In summary, if we focus on loveing kindness and global oneness, joyful actions for the universal benefit, and on logical understandong and increasing awareness, then we have gotten rid of the errors to that degree. By maintaining those good works, we cease to create negative karma. We next enter "satchitananda", which Catholics call "the state of grace", and everything is OK thereafter. In that sense, karma is what we do to ourselves due to attachments to stuff that doesn't work. Getting rid of attachments to stuff that doesn't work ends negative karma. The final purgation of errors is nirvana, in which our attachments to useless stuff gets "blown out", extinguished due to lack of interest.

Interestingly, I spent most of last night recalling my own mistreatment of my associates in the past. In those areas of life in which I was tardy in recognizing that I had screwed up, I found that I was rejected. In areas in which I worked to make a difference, I was accepted. That's not mysterious - nobody likes a person who messes things up. Nothing even remotely mysterious about it.

Happy holidaze! Let this be a season of rebirth!

dave

Yeah, cool, what Dave said.

I guess I imagine it's like what kind of coat I might wear on a given winter morning. Do I need a heavy one? No. But, more than a sweater, maybe. How about the grey cape. Yeah, that's just right. But, I don't get that we are really choosing the coat...more like we're sort of grabbing one in passing. Maybe yesterday we were too cold, so today we overdress. It seems so tricky to me...besides, where I live they say that if you don't like the weather, wait two hours.

love, blink :)

Nicely written Dave! Thanks

WOW...Fantastic answers.  Seriously...!
I am impressed.

And to think I was going to tell Nanner she has to have an Astral Fling with Dood to clean up all of her Karma. :D

Nanner knows that Dood teases her....greatly!

dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 9:40pm:

......Interestingly, I spent most of last night recalling my own mistreatment of my associates in the past. Happy holidaze! Let this be a season of rebirth! dave

OOOooh Dave that is very interesting because after reading all the threads, I got away from the pc, sat down took out a sheet of paper and divided it into 4 sections. childhood days / youth / young adult / adult. I wrote down in each section so far what I can remember doing to others which I felt "changed their life or hurt them.  

In my little project I can already see that as of young adult age, the list got longer however not so tragic...Adult was therefor more tragic or impactful.  

Nanner

Old Dood wrote on Dec 19^th, 2007 at 7:06am:

And to think I was going to tell Nanner she has to have an Astral Fling with Dood to clean up all of her Karma. :D Nanner knows that Dood teases her....greatly!

What are you talking about Old Dood, we`ve already had our Astral Fling and since I caught you havin it with so many, I`m cuttin you off - be gone in the dog house!...  ;D I am a one man astral fling kinda Nanner...

U crack me up! I need that though and am very happy that you are here messin with my mind.

Love to all,
Nanner

Hi! Nanna,

My view on Karma is disbelief and I find it illogical I posted a thread earler "My difficulties with Karma and Reincarnation"

I dont like being punished for something I cant remember or having to live over and over again. As for me I am going to move on to higher things into my beautiful realms and dimentions much better than this monocrome earthly existence. For those who insist they are going to be born again and again, God will give them their wish. "But I know for absolute surity that my next existence will not be confined to this earth"

Love

Alan

Alan McDougall wrote on Dec 19^th, 2007 at 8:35am:

My view on Karma is disbelief ...." I dont like being punished for something I cant remember or having to live over and over again. As for me I am going to move on to higher things into my beautiful realms and dimentions much better than this monocrome earthly existence. For those who insist they are going to be born again and again, God will give them their wish. "But I know for absolute surity that my next existence will not be confined to this earth" Love Alan

Ya know - I can understand your point very well. I had asked the question on the Karma for Lucy on the www.jenseits-de.com Q&A forum and the answer had been that "we vastly misunderstand Karma". So if we on earth vastly misunderstand it then we are setting up our expectations in a dogmatic way. Stiffening our reality instead of expanding it.

Being born again only allows the soul to experience more, experience different realities and Lord only knows if there is even a number which can be placed on the different realities we experience.

That you know for certianty that "you do not want another earth run" I believe too. From teaching of many religions or some secret teachings one is told that the experience on earth is one of the most "impactful" experiences for a soul. And looking at "history books" I can relate to that exact sentence. There has been times where I would surf looking up catastrophy information, info on all the wars and its casualties, hunger, death, birth, firearms, bombs, shootings, killings, death row inmates, rapes, molestations, mutilations etc. and I sat there and did nothing other than "cry"  :'(  

I embraced all of this information and cried for our world, for we have been given the opportunity to learn and teach new things every day of our lives, have been given the "free will" to choose "what" we want to learn and teach and many of us use this option to teach "hurtful" things. I questioned "why".. and thats when I met the crew from Peter H. Kirchner.

You and I may dance in a way off Galaxie later, reflecting back on our epoch on earth saying, "that one was enough for me to have understood that loving another regardless of circumstance is the only true feeling there ever really was".
Nanner

I guess we each have to make our own calls Alan.

I can't know how karma works or even if the framework is broadly indicative of some reality (except at the level of everyday life where it's fairly clear that my actions have consequences, and some fairly definite suggestions that karmic issues are at play in my present life) but (b) it seems fairly likely that I can't just arbitrarily decide where I'm headed for next time up.

I'm rather hoping it's not the vengeful God, devils, hell and eternal suffering model that applies.

The reality we're left with though is that it's hard to avoid the conclusion that egotistical and selfish behaviours lead to unhappiness ......

Well Alan, I can understand 'what' you are saying then again you said yourself that "you can't remember..."

That being said then how can you say you will NOT come back?

My meaning is this....maybe you already 'made a deal' to keep coming back until you fully 'Get It'.  
BUT, you might just not 'remember' saying or decreeing such a statement.

I would love to say..."Nope, I have had enough on this 3rd dimensional plane".
I can't say I will not becoming back because I might have said something to the effect of "I agree to come back until I am 'aware' enough for this level of my existence."

Just thought I would throw that out there...

Hi! Guys,

Nanna, dear, you are a compassionate soul having cried for the whole world. I believe your tears of sorrow did more good for peace on earth than all the efforts of the United Nations orgination since its foundation. What would be the enormous effect if all good peole wept like you did? Your tears moved the very hand of God

How do I know that this is my last incarnation or existence on this earth. I am an old weary soul looking for a city not made by man but by God.

I have a deep inner knowledge, from the Divine Source that I am going to progress to higher things when shed this mortal body.  The mortal body had been a real burden to me as I have had to endure and overcome unspeakable health problems.

I am already in this life and out of this life daily if you get my drift

Love you all,

Alan

Yes I understand Alan and that is a sure sign, so to speak. I am happy for you Alan, really happy. Hope you are too. Yes the tears must have been impactful, I certainly know they were genuine and full of Agape love for all living and deceased beings of our planet. The fact that I dreamt that night the phrase "angels should not be made to cry" confused the poopy doop - out of me. Hinse I use this phrase a few times. But I look at every humanbeing, animal, plant, insect as beinging an angel ever since. My partner literally gets mad at me, for "catching any spiders" or "flys" during summer using a cup and then letting them go instead of just using the nearest magizine to mash them with.

Yes Alan, I find you will raise to a higher consciousness level which will carry responsibilty with it.

Hugs,
Nanner

OOOOOOOOOOOOOH Man - oh Man..

I decided to jump off of the bridge into cold water, and I just burnt my butt folks. Want to share this with you.

After reading and writing towards the topic - Karma - I decided I was going to search for a Karmaastrologist in germany,  (didnt even know there was such a thing..lol) Now I do.

This beautiful soul did a Karma reading for me. I am still floored!

Heres the scoop on some of it.

She saw 3 lives which I`ve lived on "earth" so far, whereby I am in my 3rd.
I was a woman in the first one, a man in my last one and guess what, a woman in this one (like you have noticed that already huh?) ::)

In my first life I was a bi**h from hooter-town (fictive town, just using the term for laughs), I used every male that I could claw my hands on, I was a very very bad woman. She said I was a very very beautiful woman though. I laughed, and she said "I mean that seriously", you were extraordinary blessed with all attributes which a male would want in a female, but you were mean to their souls, and you took em for everything they had and bled there soul down to starvation of it. I asked if I were a prositute or something like that, she said "no" a regular woman in life - no higher nor lower living standard.

I chooked coughed and said "are you telling me I was Dracula`s ole lady and sucked the blood out of all these guys or what". She said "sort of like that" just on a material basis. You ate them up for everything it was worth. You knew "no love at all", that word didnt exsist for you. That gave you very bad Karma, for you didnt practise love at all either.

In my next life I was a male, there too I was a horrific person, I killed, stole, raped, beat and hurt many, I was thrilled by the sensation of anger, hate and such. I was positioned in higher standard in life on earth and used my authority for negative purposes. So I said Quote un`Quote: "Awwww Scheisse", whats up with my common sense, didnt I know back then "what comes around goes around".. She tells me, "yes, you did know the difference you choose however to ignore this fact".. Again bad  bad Karma...

well then she goes to my "this life" and stops talking for about 3 min.  
and says, Honey - you`ve graduated!  
I say: "what?"
She said, OMG you have been thru so much in this life that you cleaned up the fatel mistakes of love ...

and then she goes on into telling me "what I have been thru in this life so far"- ( I can tell you the woman named "each single situation for real") U felt naked, bare butt naked! I sat there and started to shiver from head to toe - still am folks. Feel like I have the shakes, really weird right now.

But in anycase - she tells me - you`ve graduated, so I said "now what, am I gonna drop dead and cross over or what": She continues with, "your destiny is now to help and provide others with insight until you return home". She told me about my health right this moment, when it started, why it started, told me when it started to return to normal, told me about my being raped, beaten, shot at, stabbed, about the children I have helped, and the souls which are in my apartment right this very minuite,

Theres much more which she said however I need to calm down first.. and we`ll talk about it later maybe..

Wow what an experience. I felt like I was naked and being seen straight through.


Has anyone ever had something like this done for them?
Nanner

Hi Alan-
Y'know, karma has absolutely nothing at all to do with punishment. Nothing. Nil. Nada. Zip. Zero.

We all have tendencies embodied ultimately in values which are intended to guide us toward suitable goals, and these goals are intended to motivate us toward the proper attitude by which we make day to day choices.

Even if our perceptions encompass everything and everybody and we act for the general good, we can still make terrible mistakes. This is the Hitler problem (or the George Bush problem, if you prefer) - trying to create some kind of stability and peace by inappropriate means. The effects of karma are to place us in the position of experiencing everything from a position in which we can understand what we are doing.

This is nothing new. We already know that there are three "persons" in any activity - the Platonic trio. There's 1st person, the Actor, and 2nd person, the Recipient of the act, and 3rd person, the Observer. If you look into Bardo Thodol and analyze the experiences described, they are not necessarily good or bad or anything. First we die and are 1st person, presenting ourselves to the afterlife. Then we sense the reaction as the 2nd person awareness comes to us in the form of the "wrathful spirits" - who aren't really wrathful if you aren't a bad person. Finally there is a sort of assemblage of spooks, sprites and spirits who present us with a 3rd person analysis that enables judgement and understanding.  Notice that there is nothing punitive here. Generally people are so overwhelmed by their lives that they go out of their way to choose a new life that avoids the pitfalls of the last one, and so on.

Now if you take that same sequence and apply it to Catholic Confession, as an example, we have the same thing. First we become aware as Actor. Then we emphathize with the Recipient of the actions. We do some damage control and we reject both what we did and also the fruits of our actions. We adopt a new way to do things that will work better, and we go on with life.  (Your priest might give you "Three Hail Marys and Three Our Fathers" but the hard work is in the realization.)

Look at the Prodigal Son. He turned from a bad actor to understand and then revise behavior. Then, having changed, the issue was resolved. There is no need to go back and experience all the stuff we did to others, nor to beat ourselves up, nor to subject ourselves to torture or whatever.  The only thing that makes karma seem like punishment is when we don't want to change - And then we're like St Francis who prayed, "Oh God, Give me chastity. ...  But not just yet."

Pulsar got it exactly right a week or so ago in his realization that ultimately we go into emptiness. (nirvastarka samadhi) And we carry our awareness with us, so it isn't all that empty after all. In fact, we each, by our nature and definition, populate emptiness with all the rest of the universe. In that sense we realize ourselves as God, and as Co-Creators of the universe (Cayce's term). If you have kinks in your thinking, then these manifest in your universe, together with their karmic consequences, which then lead to realizations that something isn't working very well.  In paraphrased Buddhist terms, "Suffering comes from attachments to things that don't work". Karma is the cause of the suffering, which is simply a cause and effect relationship. There's no punishment involved.

As an example, when we were infants, we wet our diapers, pooped and piddled and generally were pretty stinky and messy. We'd have kept on doing that except that karma, the ability to involve in cause and effect relationships, led us to a better way of doing things, and we became friends with a potty chair etc. There's no punishment. There's no need to go back to poop your pants again.  You just go on. Personally, I'd say that we're fortunate in that we can learn by karma. ;-)

dave

My friend Dave,
Karma is the cause of the suffering, which is simply a cause and effect relationship. There's no punishment involved.... As an example, when we were infants, we wet our diapers, pooped and piddled and generally were pretty stinky and messy. We'd have kept on doing that except that karma, the ability to involve in cause and effect relationships, led us to a better way of doing things, and we became friends with a potty chair etc. There's no punishment. There's no need to go back to poop your pants again.  You just go on. Personally, I'd say that we're fortunate in that we can learn by karma.

You wrote that very well thanks and that is round about how the Karmalogist had explained it to me today aswell. I knew she wasnt talking donkey doo when the lady came out and tells me my "this life" history "in detail" and here I walked thru live thinking Missy is incognito, okay. Bullpoop, I couldn`t hide from this lady - so how arrogant would I be in believing that Karma isnt exsisten... ? Mind be I was speaking soley for "myself" in that sentence, you guys are all way ahead of me in much.

After taking the time and really pondering about me, myself and I. Paying attention to every little detail I could, it all made sense to me that this life here has been although tremendiously hard very very tutitive.

I have no excuse not to comprehend her message now.
The Nannster

Ps: by the way dave, Nanner misses her potty chair, it was really cute, looks much more creative than these cold looking white things we sit on as adults!

Dave said: In paraphrased Buddhist terms, "Suffering comes from attachments to things that don't work".

Yes, and it's amazing what we can actually let go of....but getting to the place where we will allow what is unecessary to simply drop away....for me, the experience is always one of grateful and often exhausted surprise, to find that everything is really okay all along.

It's just that all the noise I was making was not allowing me to hear that beautiful silence, and to feel that beautiful peace.

love, blink :)

I'm hoping for the beautiful silence myself, Blink.

Unfortunately, once we start getting tangled up in something, it takes a while to untangle - which means that Mr Bush has got hold of a tiger's tail and is having great trouble trying to figure out how to turn it loose. And he's not the only one! Many tigers, many tails, and many radical activists of all creeds everywhere whose plans aft gang aglee. Hopefully things will untangle and settle soon. It seems remarkable to me that people can keep on shooting one another and then expect a peaceful coexistence with their erstwhile targets.

I think that it's the untangling process that the Eightfold Path was intended for.

dave

dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 19^th, 2007 at 7:25pm:

I'm hoping for the beautiful silence myself, Blink. Unfortunately, once we start getting tangled up in something, it takes a while to untangle - which means that Mr Bush has got hold of a tiger's tail and is having great trouble trying to figure out how to turn it loose. And he's not the only one! Many tigers, many tails, and many radical activists of all creeds everywhere whose plans aft gang aglee. Hopefully things will untangle and settle soon. It seems remarkable to me that people can keep on shooting one another and then expect a peaceful coexistence with their erstwhile targets.I think that it's the untangling process that the Eightfold Path was intended for. dave

Yeah..the subject Mr. Bush holding on to the tigers tail. I wonder how much of all of this is "our own fault" because we collectively have indorsed that which he has followed thru with. What I mean to say is, the same in the Hilter thread. "We" the people of the world, didnt get up and say "NO". More so we reacted "confused, in awe, unpresidented and in limbo" of is it right or is it wrong. Maybe "we" collectively need to change our "view" of the whole thing and then "Mr. Bush" will be inclined to change his position on much. Open for suggestions.

Nanner

Nanner said, ""We" the people of the world, didnt get up and say "NO". "

Actually, many many people did get up and say no, and many people predicted exactly the same things which have happened.

We just didn't listen. People are listening now...

love, blink :)

Dear Nanna,
I know in this life you are a passionate girl, but you were difinitely not the persons in the previous incarnations that this woman said you were.

Love

Alan ;)

Alan McDougall wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 9:30am:

Dear Nanna, I know in this life you are a passionate girl, but you were difinitely not the persons in the previous incarnations that this woman said you were. Love Alan ;)

Why? Why do you say that?
Why can't she be?

I believe that I had been these "evil" persons in my previous lives Alan. I know what you mean though, you are referring to me now...
I believe her because I have had 39 years to reflect on now and in recent years I have consciously reflected, looking at things a bit out of the ordinary, one might say. I had been suddenly set down on my butt by the Universe folks, put out of commission as some might call it. And this I believe had been done to "open my consciousness level"... I had been able to relate to the movie "Conversations with God" so well that it broke my heart to see that such happened to another person other than myself. (I am sure that many can relate to the movie in some form or fashion)..

I am taking my lessons now. And feel that if one takes a really real close look at themselves - I mean a under the microscope look and differs the "taught by mom & dad, society" things and "not taught by such", what remains is the core, then one can identify what happened to the soul in previous times.

I was a very very bad soul, yes and I hurt many - thus my quest has been in this life (interesting enough from the get go of consciousness) to help and love as many as I can. I am aware that I spread cheer, I am aware that I make people smile, sometimes I make them think about deep things, I am aware that I spread an aura of love to some...

For those that I can touch in some way shape or form - I owe you that feeling I give you right then and there, for in a previous life I may have hurt you in exactly the oppisite way. Giving you that feeling I gave you now, may be my way of restitution. So I love you with all of my might now, so I can catch up and proove that my Karma finially understands AGAPE love.


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1986/ducksix9.th.png

Nanner

wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 9:22am:

...... People are listening now... love, blink :)

And that is the beginning of the change in consciousness which will modulate 2012. The "People are listening now".

Love you,
Nanner

Hi Nanner-

Just for the record, I did write and say "No!"

But you are correct in the notion that unless we collectively make our needs known we'll be overrun by those who want to change the world to suit some individual purpose.

I guess that the assumption that our leaders have insights that are as keen as our own can sometimes be misleading. To me it seems terribly obvious that one does not make peace by waging war. In fact, the series of human abuses that have come down through attachments to severe measures from the Middle Ages has still not been wholly settled, and already we're stirring up new mud to cloud the international scene.

This is really very simple stuff. But for those who don't want to admit it, there's nothing like outright denial.

dave

Okay that makes 3 of us sofar that wrote and said "NO"...
But we didnt do it "collectively" - maybe that is the key to it all.
Being together in mind and spirit. The state of being "ONE"..
Hugs,
Nanner

 Nanner, i'm so glad to hear that you have graduated and realize what's important now.  :)  Like some here, i believe in karma, not as punishment meted to us by others, but as catalysts self chosen for spiritual growth.   I haven't had many of the challenges you have had, but i've had a pretty consistently challenging life in some respects and i realize that it was these experiences more than any other, which helped me to grow spiritually.  

 I remember reading a particular Cayce Life reading which always made me smile.  A man came to Cayce to have his other lives and nonphysical experiences read.  He was told by these guides that he had had some very negative patterns.   It seems he had been Nero in a life, and enabled or facilitated much suffering for others.

 He was born in this life with some major disabilities, but he was told that if he kept to his current path, that he wouldn't need to come to Earth anymore.  The guides were quick to tell him that he hadn't reached full spiritual perfection, but that there were other realms of experience and learning for him, if he so chose them.   Apparently he had learned well enough, the importance of love and service, something you also seem to know and more importantly practice.

  Some people who came to Cayce to have Life readings, were told that they had graduated from the Earth system, went into another system (usually through the Star Arcturus) but decided to come back to the Earth system for a definite purpose and to finish up their full completion here.  

 Hi Nanner, i would like to point something out to you.  I don't doubt that psychic lady and her accuracy talking about your other two lives which have been entwined with this life...  

But maybe there is bigger picture here, and maybe you weren't such a 'bad soul' after all?   One of the patterns, trends, or tendencies that i've become aware of, is that when a Disc/Greater self starts to really merge with Source again, it starts to deal more directly with some of its more negative and destructive patterns and energies.  

  So, it may roll together a personality and lifetime, which takes some of its heavier and less lacking in light personalities and lifetimes, and mix them strongly in with some very fast vibrating lifetimes and personalities, in the hopes that this seemingly present personality, can help to foster some balance and to work on some of the more difficult aspects of self.  

 This actually tends to show an "older Soul", and with respect to the psychic, it's quite probable that you've had many more lives than just those other two ones.   It's just that she may have picked up strongly on those, because you were so dealing with them at the time, or what not.  Maybe now, you are working more with some of your faster vibrating lifetimes?

 A Disc/Greater self can potentially have hundreds, or even thousands of lifetimes and personalities within its more Total self, BUT we as personalities in a particular life and space/time cycle, may only be working with a much more limited and narrower focus at any give time.   I've noticed that most personalties are working strongly and predominantly with about anywhere from 3 to 10 or so lifetimes at any one moment in this life.    

 And these change!   It's not stagnant, as one grows spiritually, or slows down their vibratory rates, our other lifetime influences change as well.    For say 7 years we might be working with John Doe, Susie Q, and Don Juan, but then later on, say in 7 years after much change, we may be working with Joe Blow, Catherine B, and then maybe also still a bit with Susie Q or John Doe, for example.  

  Even within a given lifetime, we cycle through various influences both relating to other materially focussed lives, as well as to nonphysical dimensional "sojourns", which relate to the Planet's and their energies.    

 Me personally, some of the lifetime energies i've brought in, i can very much relate to some of the ones you talked about.   One of them was particularly and extremely negative for the most part, and nothing to be proud of at all.    

 But as Justin, in this life, my Greater self knew that we/I have enough inner strength and centeredness to work more directly with these difficult and challenging energies.    We've balanced a lot of what this other part of self, unbalanced.  

 Personally, i believe the majority of us, have had some pretty destructive selves here and there.   Younger Souls/Discs/Greater selves however, aren't always strong or ambitious enough to work more directly with these right away.   They wait till enough Light has been gathered within, and enough balance maintained, and then one of their "lucky" selves gets to take on some more of that heavier load--like maybe you?  

So please don't think of yourself as having been a "bad soul".   You've just worked more directly and consciously with some of your more difficult and challenging energies.   This is really a "good" sign all in all.   It shows spiritual ambition and getting serious about one's spiritual growth.  

 Lot's a times a Soul choosing that kind of life, for this life, ends up with strong Uranus, Saturn, and/or Pluto energies in their astro chart.    In particular, i wouldn't be surprised to find Uranus a very strong energy in your astro. chart from birth.    

Thanks Ahso, in one way it makes sense what you wrote in another its confusing me. I`m not accustomed to the verbage used, such as "Disc". Pls. explain.

I`m sure that theres a bigger picture that needs to be seen for me to be able to digest what the lady had conveyed, and for some reason I felt she was merely referring to "earth lives" as being 3, I didnt ask her in which other realms/galaxies I have allowed my soul to take part in.

Never the less, it had been an expereince which I for sure will never forget and I believe it is the beginning of another wonderful journey.

I need to ask you a question though. How can a person tell that another person is an "old soul"?

Hugs,
Nanner

Hi Nanner-
The  term "disk" was proposed by Bruce in what I believe was his first book of the series - I just moved and my copies are still inpacking boxes so I can't look it up - He said that he saw this thing and that it had images like faces, mostly people, but one of which happened to be Snidely Whiplash, a cartoon character. He attached awareness to the image and discovered himself in the person of Snidely for a moment .

Thus the disk is a connection by which one's "Knower" hooks onto a personality construct so as to bring it into the world. And disks hook onto one another sequentially, like bromeliads that grow new shoots out of the old.

I am somewhat uncertain whether Bruce sees the disk system as creating horizontal links to other disk systems, but this seems to me to be implied. Then we'd get a sort of "Indra's Net" effect.

Bruce- could you elaborate a bit more on this?

dave