H1 All

Hitler’s hatred of the Jews presumably knew no bounds, for true hatred takes nothing to be too bad for the one we hate. It involves wanting and even willing someone’s endless suffering. Hitler’s actual atrocities can probably be quantified, for they were bounded by the limits that nature and nature’s God has put a limit on what an evil man can actually do. But God, looking upon Hitler’s heart, saw him willing on the Jews a quantitatively endless world of grief. God must make Hitler feel and acknowledge the wickedness of that desire if He is to show him his culpability’s full depth. Only then will Hitler apprehend himself truthfully. And so only that will begin to repair the moral order and quiet the anguish his unrequited wrong-doing stirs in our hearts. Yet Hitler cannot grasp the limitlessness of his evil intentions all at once, even after death; and so he will have to endure drinking the dregs of God’s righteous wrath everlastingly.

Regards,

Alan McDougall

How do you know your Hitler and my Hitler are the same Hitler, Alan?

love, blink :)

Dear Blink,

There is no your Hitler or my Hitler only the Hitler that existed in the second world war and only God has the true perpective about this evil monster.

Regards

Alan

blink-

Are you suggesting that there is no one Hitler, but rather multiple Hitlers each having the characteristics that we, the observers, place upon him?  

Or maybe that there is one Hitler, but the characteristics attributed to him by Alan are different from the characteristics attributed to him by others?

There are still living survivors of the concentration camps.  It would be instructive to talk to one of them about Hitler and then talk to one of the skinheads.  In such a case I think it's a pretty safe bet that we would have two very different Hitlers.

Suspect that to quite a large degree Hitler thought he was doing good by 'his' people. But that he was deluded in thinking that his methods could do good, as are almost all of us.

Could Hitler remotely have done what he did except with the tacit and not so tacit agreement and support of very large numbers of people? If not with this, then without a collective turning away?

Is it not far too easy an out to demonise Hitler, to paint all the blame on him, and blithely go on without ever engaging in the true nature of what happened?

Do we really think that as nations we're any different to the people that supported him? That it can't or won't happen again should the same circumstances arise?

Is it not the case that many of us while professing and thinking otherwise by our actions and driven by fear believe it's quite OK to live by the rule of the fittest, winner takes all? That we're held back mostly by lack of daring, by fear of others  and by fear of the law?

Did Hitler do anything beyond apply that view on a scale and with a thoroughness that many of us simply don't get the opportunity or have the guts to do?

He certainly didn't improve his karma, but is he not deserving of compassion too?

Why should he suffer for eons when all that's needed to solve the problem is that he comes to see the error of his view?

So, since Hitler tormented people and ordered them to be thrown alive into ovens, the loving God that created him is going to do worse than HITLER for all eternity? God is going to torment the tormenter WORSE?! Since when do two wrongs make a right?

So, presumably Hitler is going to have his flesh barbecued for all eternity for no other purpose than to create insane pain. There is no redeeming value to an eternity in Hell. It is infinitely more sick and depraved than what Hitler himself did!

I am sure your god (small 'g' intended) is going to derive great pleasure from searing Adolf's skin in unquenable fire. Maybe when we get to heaven we can watch this man writhe in unspeakable agony and laugh together for all eternity. That will be great fun! We have such love and compassion!

God tell us to love our enemies right? Well, with him thats impossible. Something is impossible for God? Yep. He is going to torture his enemies in fire for all eternity! What is that word for someone who says one thing and then does another? It's on the tip of my tongue...

Did you know that the Bible says that God fashions all hearts?

Pat

Hi The one thing i must say about Hitler is that i hope that when he first crossed over to spirit,that he was made to feel the pain and the fear of those jewish children and jewish adults that he murdered without pity ,without compassion but hatred of the jews,which he so openly expressed,he had no right to decide who belongs on this earth plain,it was not his choice to make.

He was just a twisted advorsery of the devil himself and if he's over the spirit world suffering then that's his fault as he can change there if he want's to,but my guess is,he's still living on the darkside in himself and probably refuses the love and light of God to save him from his own hell,he created on earth.

Love and God bless      love juditha

Hi Alan, for a lot of people the topic "Hilter" is a very touchy subject. When we can get beyond the personal likes and dislikes of the topics widespread, we can openly talk about it. Un-fortuneatly that "time" seems not yet arrived. Maybe "today is that day". Maybe by speaking out some thoughts, we can change the consciousness level of it and turn the pages in this history book, for a lot of people get "stuck" right there on that page in time.

There are several things which I as a fullblooded native german, born by two german parents whom were born to two 2 german grandparents, whom had to proove their german decendancy reaching back as far as 250 years prior to their being allowed to marry, find I have an upmost interesting aspect which can benefit, many. Why I wrote it "just like that" is because its important to know that a person whom seeks their "roots" will always dig deeper than someone whom is just passing by seeking info.

I am going to write from 2 aspects, so bare with me a bit. This may be helpful to some.

Hilter is in the "afterlife", this is well known. Going onto the jenseits-de.com site, one can get the mediumbased conversations which took place with Hilter in the afterlife realm.  A heck of alot is explained in those transcripts. But what had shocked me more than anything else so far on my journey, the "soul" of Hilter is of angel decendency, meaning his part in the mass production of a play on earth had a greater mission, than that of you or I. It was to produce a movement in mass consciousness. WHICH BY GOD - HE DID FORFILL HIS MISSION, did he not?

To History. Pls always remember that each "epoch" has its own devine "consciousness level inwhich the people react in".. That is very very important to remember. Not one skinhead, I mean not 1 seems to truely understand what WWII was about in essence to be able to qualifiably stand for what it stood for in the minds of people whom lived it. Otherwise they wouldnt go around with beer bottles in their hands screaming out profanity, shaving their heads like lab monkeys are shaved and wearing combat boots, while in same turn not committing to a military Bundeswehr career. I refuse to take them serious at all until they clean their act up, wash and sew their clothes and brush their hair for which they`d have to grow first. I hope I spoke frankly enough. Their unconscious "kids" in my book.  

WWII - It had to do with a "choice" of a nation. A choice which not only 1 man made, although when spoken about today, theres mainly 1 mans name spoken out. Does this "name sound better than the others, or why is his only in rememberence?" We need to get past that!

I have spoken to persons whom out -"lived" the war, the gory details are not only on the sides of the Jews, which can be heard. Everyone endured this unless you were smart enough to kiss someones butt high enough in rank so to save your own life. Yes, there were alot of butt kissers back then and you and I would have been one too!

The oppression hit "everyone" and there was no distinguishing between german born or jewish born. My grandmother had to "kill with her own hands" inorder to sanctify the "life of her 2 remaining children", having already lost her husband and her 1st born because she did not do what had been told. Now given that this happened in my own family, I do not believe that this "directive" was kept any different amoungst many of the "ranking officers" matter of fact I know it wasnt.. So I ask anyone reading this, a conscious question:

If the President of the USA gave you a choice tomarrow to kill "me" inorder to save the lives of your daughters, mother, father and wife or husband, and to make sure that you understood the seriousness of it, shot your son in the head right infront of your eyes as proof, would you kill me? You dont know me, know nothing of me but I`d almost bet "yes, you would". So lets be careful of "judgement of circumstances inwhich one really has no insight to, other than history books or the telling of someone whom stood at the trigger part of the gun".. The "insight is different from each side of the box".

Well lots of "WWII people" whom lived before and after the war, "NOT THOSE WHOM FOUGHT IN THE WAR, (theres a difference), remember MUCH MORE. The people that fought the war are those that came in later to clean up a mess which someone else started. The people whom wrote the history books tell a story of a monster regime, yes.

Is there a difference of "monstery" when a country regime kills people "quitely", (death penalty, allowing mass firearms, testing reactions by adding substances to foods, sending Haarp Planes into the sky to spray chemicals - Chemtrails) Its all about consciousness, opening the eyes to that whats all around us.

So Alan, no offence but you stand corrected, Looking at it thru the eye of spirituality I would like to give you a hug right this very minuite, but Hilters Regime was not as simple, as based on a hatred towards "jews", but rather a mission to change how we all look at warlike conditions, oppression, slaughter of souls, dictatorship today.

So tell me, how do you look at those topics today?

Love to you,
Nanner

Juditha, yes Hilters soul and those of the regime have been confronted with the outcome of its choices. And you and I both know that "Hilters soul may incarnate again" UNTIL WE LEARN THE FREAKIN MESSAGE  :'(

Love you,
Nanner

Pat, what if God personally asked you to "forgive" Hilter for what you have learned from those books? Could you forgive him for it? If you just answered yes, to yourself then I am sure that, that is exactly what god wants us to learn now. "Forgiveness"

Why did I just write that, because we here all know that God and we are ONE, that means that all creatures are also of God, which means that we have killed or stood by to let be killed (death penalty) creatures of God. Everytime you have killed a fly in your life (and for some of us in areas of lakes thats quite alot of flies) you have killed many lives.. maybe as many as Hilter had killed.

Why did I use the comparison of a fly equal to a human being. Because this fly has a "life" to! How can we honestly sit there and condem, not forgive and hate, but on the other hand distinguish the worth of a "LIFE"?

Deep Deep subject! But we must forgive!

Hugs,
Nanner

The reason I wrote that is to expose the evil teaching of eternal torture!

God is more unconditionally loving and forgiving than any of us can imagine. What I was trying to say is that Alan's view of God is of a sadistic God and that it is not true.

Pat

Soory about that Pat, I must have completely missed the context. Guess I need to be forgiven now. Hugs, hugs and oooops. I can in good faith say that I too believe in a loving, forgiving, generious, AGAPE God :-) Nanner

It's ok Nanner, I forgive you!  ;)

Juditha, I came back to the forum to read your words again, for I thought I read something incorrectly, it stuck with me... but I didnt. You wrote: i hope that when he first crossed over to spirit,that he was made to feel the pain and the fear of those jewish children and jewish adults that he murdered without pity ,without compassion but hatred of the jews,which he so openly expressed. But he didnt murder them.

Most of all my concern is this: By the beautiful Juditha even "thinking" this negative energy of thoughts, she`s missing the lesson of AGAPE. One may not choose judgement when practising AGAPE Love. Even in the teachings of Jesus (whom if any human had by moral rights, reason to judge) gave compassion in every single detail of his life amoungst us. He was 99% spirit, 1% manlike in core of consciousness. We are exactly the oppisite in our thought processes.

Nothing is good, nothing is bad - everything "just is", sounds like a discernment but its not. It is allowing "free nonjudgemental energy to flow". Agape love frees us from the wish for someone elses soul to be tormented regardless of situation, frees us from thoughts of anger and leads us to a deeper and more understanding of Gods love thru ourselves.

Nanner  

Thank you Pat  ;)

Juditha's wish for Hitler to be aware is a two-edged remark. In part, it is negative in that it implies distress, and in part it is positive, in that it provides the beginnings for reconciliation and reform. I wish that at death I might be aware of the damage I've done so that I too might correct it.

Actually, in the present world we can see endless variations on the theme of ethnic intolerance. Radical Islam is acting toward Jews and Christians much as the "Aryans" did toward Jews and other minorities like the gypsies.  Radical Zionists are acting equally badly toward Arabs and Muslims within Israel, as well as their neighbors in Lebanon, Palestine etc. And we have radical Christianity in the American Midwest being intolerant of everyone else, and quite willing to put the world to the nuclear sword to protect our committment to Mammon, the keep of our treasury, and Moloch, whose fiery belly is the ultimate destiny of many of our children.

Let's hope that ALL of us can feel the true significance of what we have done in life, so that we won't have to do it ever again.

dave

I missed the important aspect Nanner wrote of which is that what happened was probably necessary to show the world the consequences of a certain sort of thinking if allowed to run uncontrolled in the modern world.

We surely have to take this view unless we're resolved that creation is out of control, that God is not omniscient, or that there's a devil who could possibly 'win'. Or if Buddhist that 'natural goodness' is not the underlying nature of things.

If we can take this on board then perhaps the bit that we have to understand is precisely that it was not an extreme exception brought about by the exceptional depravity of one man. The world is full of people who if born into the particular circumstances and zeitgeist with his particular (and not all that uncommon) tendencies and karma would deliver precisely the same. He wasn't necessarily all that exceptional.

He in a sense seems to have bought into the belief that was pretty universal before WW2 to the effect that force, authoritarianism and war were perfectly legitimate means by which to progress your aims. That if it didn't work that you weren't ruthless enough, you needed to up the ante.

My (now very old) parents and most of their generation took a view of working life that reflected precisely that vibe. That if you failed it was your own fault, you didn't try hard enough or weren't tough enough.

Hitler fought and suffered in the trenches in WW1, at a time when in England the ladies of the local women's institute or whatever were still handing out white feathers and social catastrophe or worse to those who refused to enlist. War was still seen through the rose tinted lens of an earlier horse powered era where casualties were very limited.

It's in a sense perhaps only in the appalling aftermath of WW2 (also in the East), and with the emergence in the 1960s of anti war sentiment (helped peculiarly enough by the years of anti Hitler propaganda which actually has made it much harder for our leaders to sell war - they now have to resort to fear mongering and talk of 'defence') that the (actually highly selective) view of Hitler as a pariah has even become possible.

We've been subject to over 50 years of unrelenting propaganda and demonisation of him by those that got to write the history books - yet they have gone on to show that they in turn are very happy to use military force and similar tactics (moderated only by this new zeitgeist and public morality and awareness of the horrors of war) to achieve their ends.

We've even done the same sort of thing (perhaps not quite on the same scale) many times over since - for example Stalin, various South American types, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Stalin and so on. Robert Mugabe is steadfastly working his way down the same road, but probably hasn't the wealth or the time left to reach quite the same heights. And those are only the headliners, every single one of us that resorts to force and power to achieve our ends is in the same space. The US and Europe have not been shy either about the use of military power for economic ends.

If we try to apply a karmic perspective to Hitler then perhaps he created both a lot of very negative karma for himself, and at the same time a lot of positive karma by fulfilling a really important task in the world. Who's to judge what his ultimate debt if any was? All that's required of him is perhaps just a simple recognition of his initial error?

It's not a task by the way that would have been required if all of the players that created the context he found himself in had actually built a different and loving reality in which he was gently steered away from whatever latent tendencies he had.

That too presumably created an enormous karmic debt, perhaps moderated only by the fact that it was spread over so many centuries and so many peoples. But the war cost so many on all sides so much, perhaps much of it was paid off.

Perhaps he was as much sinned against as sinner, so to speak.....

H1 All

Hitler’s hatred of the Jews presumably knew no bounds, for true hatred takes nothing to be too bad for the one we hate. It involves wanting and even willing someone’s endless suffering. Hitler’s actual atrocities can probably be quantified, for they were bounded by the limits that nature and nature’s God has put a limit on what an evil man can actually do. But God, looking upon Hitler’s heart, saw him willing on the Jews a quantitatively endless world of grief. God must make Hitler feel and acknowledge the wickedness of that desire if He is to show him his culpability’s full depth. Only then will Hitler apprehend himself truthfully. And so only that will begin to repair the moral order and quiet the anguish his unrequited wrong-doing stirs in our hearts. Yet Hitler cannot grasp the limitlessness of his evil intentions all at once, even after death; and so he will have to endure drinking the dregs of God’s righteous wrath everlastingly.

Regards,

Alan McDougall
*****************
Ya think so, Al???
Jew-baiting is a time-honored Christian pastime, after all.
AND, Hitler had the blessing of the Pope Pius XII in the little
known pact known as the "Concordat."
(I'm not s****ing you here! Read about it...)
Not to mention, the "god" of the Bible is a lot like Hitler after
all. He's into genocide, torture and what have you. I can just
see ol' Adolf sitting at Yahweh's right hand. (Assuming your
idea of "god" is true, that is...)

B-manoid

Hi! All,

I must say I am very surprised at the response to my somewhat rhetorical thread about Hitler. If we look at the near death experience where a person must go through the life review where everything one has done in life is played off in front of them, where they feels not only the affect of ones own action on self,  but the pain, sorrow, horror desolation inflicted on others as a result of their actions. Hitler had to feel this when he died and perhaps that was his punishment (it must have been terrible).

Remember Harry Truman, he said, “the buck stops here”, so he took the responsibility for bombing Japan.

Likewise, with Hitler the buck stopped with him on the Second World War so all its horrors are on his direct accountability.

No matter how we try to rationalize and compare an evil monster like Hitler with normal humanity we cannot. There are consequences for what we do in this present life that go into the next like, like it or not. Be they the Christian hell or Kara reversion

Hitler was an evil beast and no amount of convoluted argument will convince me otherwise. His deserver’s punishment, but what kind of punishment I leave up to God.

To try to exonerate this evil monster in human form is immoral to me.

Regards,

Alan

Yes Alan, the responses to the subject are infact impactful. See, what I mean. This paragraph hit the head of the nail:
If we try to apply a karmic perspective to Hitler then perhaps he created both a lot of very negative karma for himself, and at the same time a lot of positive karma by fulfilling a really important task in the world. Who's to judge what his ultimate debt if any was? All that's required of him is perhaps just a simple recognition of his initial error?

Maybe we shouldn`t label "Hilters wrong doings" as much as we should think about what we as after war siblings should consciously be "thinking" so to create the "reality" of its intent.
Meaning, if we stick to hating him or the regime or even the fact of it happening then we`ve missed the lesson which even created the "sore spot".

Alan, tell me something hon, WHAT CAN FUTURE GENERATIONS do so that "a WWII" like enviroment never can take place again?

:-?
Nanner

Hi guys. Each to his own I guess but my point was not to exonerate him. The point was just that he may simultaneously have done great good and very great harm, and that in karmic terms these may balance to whatever degree.

It's clear that he must eventually come to see and face what he did. But this is only one side of the picture, and I'd not presume to judge the total picture or the highest view.

Presuming that he does face a karmic debt, I'd argue that it was/will be himself that drive him into a reality where he can learn otherwise when he is placed so that he sees the enormity of the harm done.

But the suffering this entails seems likely to be only as much as is needed for him to drop his identification with the use of power, force and compulsion as a means to achieve ends. Perhaps for example (although there's no reason to think this) he had an epiphany before he died.

Point being we it's often said suffer not out of the imposition of some sort of revenge or judgement  by God, but as a result of the very practical effects and consequences of our own choosing to live from other than love. Once we wake up we're instantly forgiven.

As a final point I'd suggest that if his words had not resonated with many he'd just have been some loon ranting on a street corner or in a beer hall in Munich. He can't be handed the entire tab for what happened....

Oh oh  :o This is something I want to check out. Quote from Fubar: Hitler had the blessing of the Pope Pius XII in the little known pact known as the "Concordat." (I'm not s****ing you here! Read about it...)

If this is true then this adds another piece to my puzzle. Thanks,
Nanner

Vajra - I must say you have impactful words and I agree with you.
------------------
Fubar - I found it, thanks.

On 30 January 1933 Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor. On 23 March 1933 his government was given legislative powers through the Enabling Act and was passed by all Reichstag except the Social Democrats and Communists (whose deputies had already been arrested). Hitler had obtained the votes of the Centre Party, led by Prelate Ludwig Kaas, by issuing oral guarantees of the party's continued existence and the autonomy of the Church and her educational institutions. He also promised good relations with the Holy See, which some interpret as a hint on a future concordat.

In April, he sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman and former member of the Centre Party, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Cardinal Pacelli, Ludwig Kaas, the out-going chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated the draft of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20th July. One of Hitler's key conditions for agreeing to the concordat, in violation to earlier promises, had been the dissolution of the Centre Party, which occurred on July 6.[3]

The Reichskonkordat was ratified on September 10, 1933. In the Concordat, the German government achieved a complete proscription of all clerical interference in the political field (articles 16 and 32). It also ensured the bishops' loyalty to the state by an oath and required all priests to be Germans and subject to German superiors. Restrictions were also placed on the Catholic organisations.

Shortly before signing the Reichskonkordat, Germany signed similar agreements with the major Protestant churches in Germany.The Catholic Church was not alone in signing treaties with the Nazi regime at this point. The concordat was preceded by the Four-Power Pact Hitler had signed in June 1933.

--- Now I am starting to get the "big" picture. Because the War for the "people" began as early as 1935, 1-2 years after the signing of these documents. They recall changes, daily changes in their lives. So if I am guessing at this correctly The regime wanted back up from the "Religions" to commence into this monstery and from all I can read up on this : The Regime got that back-up in form of this Reichkonkordat!

Heaven knows what actually happened, but there's also stories about to the effect that the rise of the Nazi party was largely funded (through big companies) by the big US business interests of the time - including a grandfather of GWB....

Yeah I knew about the funding of the big honchos in industry, however the major RELIGIONS BACK UP  I had no idea of. I mean com`mon, how can religious doctrine teach sunday school lessons about love, faith, divine godly like atomosphere while in same incident signing a freakin document in another country which allows such mass distruction? Oooops Nannerghost seriously emotional right now...Not good when angels cry!  :'(

The point being, Dave and all, that if we don't feel the true significance of what we are doing now, right now, in this life.....what is the lesson of forgiveness that our children or our children's children will be learning? Won't they be learning how to forgive us?

Will our children be able to forgive us for our atrocities, what we do to each other and this earth? Will they look around at this earth and wonder why they were ever born?

Perhaps now is the time to look at what we have done, and now is the time to create the new vision. Not later.

love, blink :)


dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 16^th, 2007 at 5:37pm:

Juditha's wish for Hitler to be aware is a two-edged remark. In part, it is negative in that it implies distress, and in part it is positive, in that it provides the beginnings for reconciliation and reform. I wish that at death I might be aware of the damage I've done so that I too might correct it. Actually, in the present world we can see endless variations on the theme of ethnic intolerance. Radical Islam is acting toward Jews and Christians much as the "Aryans" did toward Jews and other minorities like the gypsies.  Radical Zionists are acting equally badly toward Arabs and Muslims within Israel, as well as their neighbors in Lebanon, Palestine etc. And we have radical Christianity in the American Midwest being intolerant of everyone else, and quite willing to put the world to the nuclear sword to protect our committment to Mammon, the keep of our treasury, and Moloch, whose fiery belly is the ultimate destiny of many of our children. Let's hope that ALL of us can feel the true significance of what we have done in life, so that we won't have to do it ever again. dave

:-/ It's OK Nanner, it was just karma playing out. The reality is I guess that a key step on the spiritual path is to see and come to terms with the groundless nature of the fact that none of human institutions are very reliable, and that while they come wrapped in all sorts of self serving propaganda all are shot through by the narrow and unwise self interest of those controlling them.

It's unfortunately the egotists that normally rise to the top. Be that in politics, nationalism, law, medicine, technology, popular culture, industry, the military, the institutional churches - whatever.

Blink has hit the nail on the head.

The important aspect of the whole story of WW2 is that we use it to waken up, that we connect with a more accurate version of the reality, that we draw the right message from the whole episode so that it's less likely to happen again.

We've touched on big political, international banking, industrial, religious and other interests as playing a part. (They have by the way continued this pattern of backing totalitarian regimes ever since - apart from those they choose to set up as enemies and demonise that is - look at the various S American strongmen, the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein and so on. Look too at recent politics, propaganda and the military/industrial complex in the US, and in other countries, and the way they have brought us to the brink yet again.)

The mood of the german people in the aftermath of the reparations imposed by the WW1 allies combined with a militaristic vibe dating from way back (but focused by Bismarck and the like) played a part too.

Not to mention the 'sins of omission' of all the ordinary people and political leaders across the world who turned a blind eye initially to the suffering in germany, and later to the rise of Nazism. And who are continuing to do so to what's happening today.

There's rather a large lobby that it suits to hang the blame for the whole WW2 affair on Uncle Adolf.

While he was far from blameless, that's clearly a highly selective and very partial view. But one (if we judge by the stridency and insistence of the continuing propaganda to that effect that takes in so many) that many want to keep alive. (which suggests by the way that many know something they don't want ordinary people to realise)

That includes those today that want to retain the ability to ultilise power, force, war and repression as a means of forcing through their ends.

The one thing that can stop them is a population that stops believing their self serving fairy stories about winners and losers, heroes, bravery, romanticism about the military, the civilisation threatening spectre of Bin laden (just another individual in a cave, but one harnessing precisely the same vibe that Hitler did - which exists for precisely the same reasons) and so on.

It comes back to the belief that the (selfish) means justifies the end versus living from wisdom and compassion  yet again. There's many that quite genuinely see the former as 'good sense', or at least as the only option available.

It's our task to wake up, to play our part in showing the world that there's another way of seeing, being and doing that works.....

wrote on Dec 17^th, 2007 at 8:45am:

The point being, Dave and all, that if we don't feel the true significance of what we are doing now, right now, in this life.....what is the lesson of forgiveness that our children or our children's children will be learning? Won't they be learning how to forgive us? Will our children be able to forgive us for our atrocities, what we do to each other and this earth? Will they look around at this earth and wonder why they were ever born? Perhaps now is the time to look at what we have done, and now is the time to create the new vision. Not later. love, blink :) Both Blink and Vajra have a very significant point. What gets me is that "we" the people of this world "vote, hire into or ordain" others into the positions inwhich they are in, so to do these things (Except in case like GWB Jr. whom so it seems just took the ballet thru the roof although the count had been significantlly different). What did the suffering of our grandparents "teach" our parents? What did the (hate to say it this way but in some cases true) the ignorance of our parents teach us, and what ARE WE NOW TEACHING our children? It takes us to the next step of conversation: "Globalisation". Who will dictate the consciousness level of future Leaders if we do not stop and think about the process right now and teach our children how to act, react, love, respect, forgive? If we do not do such then it allows the expansion of room for past "souls whom have the experience of monstery wars" to incarnate again. Has anyone noticed that the "soul projection" of the men and women whom have had the power and might to brew up such a stew filled with death, hate, anger, racisum etc. always seem to be "alike" in each epoch. Its like its a different timeframe but same poop. (Like a broken record of some sort) I am trying to compare such people to see where they have simularities. Teaching our kids what to look out for. dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 16th, 2007 at 5:37pm: Juditha's wish for Hitler to be aware is a two-edged remark. In part, it is negative in that it implies distress, and in part it is positive, in that it provides the beginnings for reconciliation and reform. I wish that at death I might be aware of the damage I've done so that I too might correct it. Actually, in the present world we can see endless variations on the theme of ethnic intolerance. Radical Islam is acting toward Jews and Christians much as the "Aryans" did toward Jews and other minorities like the gypsies.  Radical Zionists are acting equally badly toward Arabs and Muslims within Israel, as well as their neighbors in Lebanon, Palestine etc. And we have radical Christianity in the American Midwest being intolerant of everyone else, and quite willing to put the world to the nuclear sword to protect our committment to Mammon, the keep of our treasury, and Moloch, whose fiery belly is the ultimate destiny of many of our children. Let's hope that ALL of us can feel the true significance of what we have done in life, so that we won't have to do it ever again. dave

Okay  ::)  I have no idea, how my "Quote" got put into a "Quote" and then my part to the thread right into the middle of both "quotes"...LOL..  ;D

Hi nanner I agree totally what dave has written here

Juditha's wish for Hitler to be aware is a two-edged remark. In part, it is negative in that it implies distress, and in part it is positive, in that it provides the beginnings for reconciliation and reform. I wish that at death I might be aware of the damage I've done so that I too might correct it.

Because if Hitler was made to feel what he had done,then its the first step to changeing his way of thinking,because to actually feel what you have inflicted on others really brings it home to you.

I know theres a lot of pain and suffering in this world which is down to someone alway,because of the hate inside that persons soul,thats why they are given  a life review ,when they die to experience the pain thay have given out,because its the only way they come to terms with what they have really done.

God gave out freewill to all  of us and he gave us that so we could make our own mistakes and if we hurt someone deliberatly,then its down to all of us whether we felt remorse for it  and people like Hitler did not feel remorse for what he did on earth,thats why it has to be put right in the spirit world which is full of love and this love combats people like Hitler,because unlike the physical world love goes right into the very soul of people like hitler,so then  with this love which is ten times more powerful in the spirit world helps people like Hitler from having a soul full of evil to a soul full of love eventually.

I  know we should love and forgive but sometimes that is not always easy especially when you get someone like Hitler and i love God very much but i always think that God knows what happens around this world is not easy for any of us and he loves us and understands that none of us are perfect,but his love for us is why our divine spirit God lets people like Hitler feel what he did to the jewish people on earth.He does not send to hell  but justs opens the soul up in the spirit world to receive his love and light and realise what he did on earth

Love and God bless  Love juditha

Nanner I tried to find the posts you mentioned as being at jenseits-de.com  and about Hitler's soul's adventures but I did not see them; are they only in German?

The creation story at jenseits-de.com does not indicate that we are here to "improve" ourselves. We are here to experience the emotions. This raises more questions than I can answer. How much free will do we have?  

So, if it is correct that we are players in a play that we ourselves have written, what is to be our response to attrocities? This cosmology leaves me confused about how to approach living from day to day even as it interests me philosophically. Still the whole WWII thing still gives us something to which to respond emotionally. Interesting.

I'm sorry your family suffered so much but I'm not surprised. Even watching old WWII movies as a child I got the impression things pretty much fell apart for people but I guess I didn't know you might have to kill one child to save another. I knew it wasn't all against just Jews and gypsies because there was in my town a nicw woman who was a war bride. She was from Germany and her family was Lutheran and they were put in work camps, where her mother died. She helped start a Lutheran Church in ourt town. I didn't realize the collaboration between thew Nazis and the churches was so formal. Growing up, my church had a minister who was in to Dietrich Bonhoeffer big time, so I knew there were people who resisted.

The comments about how do we all wake up to things that happen around us  is interesting. Look at all the mess that has been created by getting so  many people to contract for adjustable rate mortgages. How sophisticated do you have to be to understand that it will be very expensive when rates go up? And that is easier to understand than what this board might like people to understand.

If Hitler had made the life choice to live his life as he did before becoming in body, there may have been a good reasion for it playing out the way it did. Would there be a Jewish state if it had not been for the war? ( as an example) To be willing to except the hate and to be despised by so many in the world and for so long. Is this not an act of giving? Hitler changed the world for the better by supporting an evil doctrine. I wonder how evil he really was as a spiritual being... Was he worse than the pilots who bombed Japan?? Or the white man when he came to the Americas?? Or how about the Catholic church. How are they any better than Hitler?? Rwanda, Serbia, East Africa, Japan in China, just how many Hitlers have there been and will there be? I'm no Nazi, nor do I think that he did anything less than evil yet as I sit here in judgement of his life I wonder, was there a purpose in it?
Joe

Hi Lucy, thank you for the compassion about WWII. I think it will really take people like you and I and people like a current jewish person and then maybe a few more students for the broader world to realise, what we are suppose to learn from WWII. Farmost the jewish community must also learn to put the issue into the past, as each time restitution is due to be paid the subject is not dealt with but rather "thrown into the faces of the german people living today" whom had absolutely nothing to do with 1933 -1945.

It must have been unbelievably wild for everyone Lucy, I mean in terms of "realisum" wild. Just as Bruce speaks about his peanut butter jar. I spoke to 2 different persons today again  regarding the subject WWII. One lived during that time in Hamburg -big big city - (female) the other lived during the war in the southern part of germany in a country setting. (male) I let them discribe the war and post war from different standpoints.

While Erika (75) tells what it looked and felt like in Hamburg. (short version) Buildings burning everywhere, the sky litt up in middle of nights by ammo fire, dead bodys laying everywhere, bursted heads, body parts, dead babys and infants, people running in and from chaos, screams, mothers giving birth in the middle of the road, men and women & children stealing food and water, she recalls her mother giving her three children 1 teaspoon of sugar each a day for to give them false energy as there was nothing else to eat. She recalls being scared to sleep at night or during the day, exausted. Fear, smell - OMG - it must have been terrible!

whileas 800 kilometers away Konrad (80) (short version) saw the war only by hearing the bombers flying over until he was sent to the front, where he says had been a complete different planet he thought to himself.

Very good points Joe!

Lucy, Peter H. Kirchner is german the owner of www.jenseits-de.com - I read the transcripts in german yes, the german site is much much broader than the translation into engl. They are working on having everything translated into engl. as we speak. Thats a lot of documentary to cover. If enough people ask it on the site it will be rushed project I am sure.

The Jenseits de site is an afterlife "Research" site, so you have to understand that you won`t really find "instructions" on there, love. Info yes. They try to keep it "non-biased dry cut according to what is being transmitted by the Guides in the afterlife". Here one would label them as "Angels or teachers I suppose". I am positive that during retrievals of Alsyia and all that they have met Guides as well. I dont see much of it spoken about here.

Once have read the infos in its entirety, my life (if I can call it that) will never be the same. I did my own research, to research that what I had read and I am still fuzzy in the head about the information. It makes alot of sense to me and coincides with much of Bruces teachings.

Yes, our souls are here to experience and in experiencing comes improvement. Finding out that there is no "heaven nor satans little hot home" was a blow to my head, as of all things I had to be, I was a sunday school teacher!  :-X So I learned to keep my trap shut about "wishful thinking"..

Now finding out that WWII had the blessings of the highest form of Churches, makes me angry at myself, that I believed in teachings of "man" (which now I find religions are) instead of learning to go inside of myself and believe Gods words ergo meaning: learn spirituality.

Like I said before in a thread. We have to learn, study, read up, compare information, scream it out to the Universe and thus to our fellow mankind: IF WE CONTINUE TO IGNORE AGAPE LOVE ergo PUL amoungst us, 2012 is going to be an ugly ugly thing.

If our Leaders thrive on fear so much, which they have literally raised nations time after time on, then they are about to learn the biggest fear of their life, meaning nature is going to take back that which belongs to it and those surviving will have the chance to talk about "how it was back "now".." so to speak.

Nanner

Hi The jewish people payed the ransom,for our gallant King Richard which brought him safely back to England,i always say this,whatever colour or creed we are in this world,there is good and bad in everyone.

Whatever Hitler done it was not the fault of the German people,whatever any leader does of any country its not the fault of the people,they just get caught up in it.

The old saying is"You cant tar everyone with the same brush"

Love and God bless     love juditha

Nanner wrote on Dec 17^th, 2007 at 8:05am:

Yeah I knew about the funding of the big honchos in industry, however the major RELIGIONS BACK UP  I had no idea of. I mean com`mon, how can religious doctrine teach sunday school lessons about love, faith, divine godly like atomosphere while in same incident signing a freakin document in another country which allows such mass distruction? Oooops Nannerghost seriously emotional right now...Not good when angels cry!  :'(

I have not looked in detail about allegations of the Catholic Church backing up the Nazis, but its something that I know has often been alleged and written about, at the very least to say that the church did nothing much to actually protest against what Hitler's regime was doing. Hitler also considered himself a Catholic personally. Also, until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, the Catholic Church widely considered the Jews as a race to be guilty of "deicide"(killing God).

However when discussing actions pre-ww2 it is necessary, I think, to point out people did not foresee the death camps etc, and know the extent of the Nazi's hatred of the Jews.

As for religions backing Hitler, another point is that Luther (and I believe that a lot of German Protestants are Lutheran) was an antisemite of similar proportions to Hitler. The Lutherans have now disowned writingas like "On the Jews and Their Lies"  (I mean they say they were Luther's personal view but do not reflect those of the modern church) which must be a great embarassment to them, but I don't suppose they had done so in the 1940s.

Wikipedia:

On the Jews and Their Lies In the treatise, Luther .....  argues that their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]


re. eternal punishment, I don't see how that is fair or constructive for anyone based on one life. Hitler was certainly "evil" but I don't know how to balance the evil acts of one deluded, corrupted man in his short lifetime (who unfortunately got into a position of great power and was supported by many people) against saying he should be tortured eternally. Maybe he just has a lot of lessons to learn...

PS Anti-semitism was also certainly nothing new. For example England expelled all of its Jews in the middle ages between 1290 and 1655 (ie forced them to leave the country), and other European countries acted similarly at one time or another, including Spain and France. The Inquisition burned many Jews at the stake.

Orlando,
Is there an easy answer to my easy question? Since I wasnt born in 1543, nor 1933 but rather my title for this vehicle states I`m a 69èr.

What exactly did the jewish community do inorder to reap so much havoc over such a long period of time?

hawkeye wrote on Dec 17^th, 2007 at 4:09pm:

If Hitler had made the life choice to live his life as he did before becoming in body, there may have been a good reasion for it playing out the way it did. Would there be a Jewish state if it had not been for the war? ( as an example) To be willing to except the hate and to be despised by so many in the world and for so long. Is this not an act of giving? Hitler changed the world for the better by supporting an evil doctrine. I wonder how evil he really was as a spiritual being... Was he worse than the pilots who bombed Japan?? Or the white man when he came to the Americas?? Or how about the Catholic church. How are they any better than Hitler?? Rwanda, Serbia, East Africa, Japan in China, just how many Hitlers have there been and will there be? I'm no Nazi, nor do I think that he did anything less than evil yet as I sit here in judgement of his life I wonder, was there a purpose in it? Joe

 I would say, its not so cut and dried as that.   When our greater selves formulate for our life plans, there is a certain amount of having to conform to more collective and pre-existing patterns and probabilities.  

 The entrance of every Soul, on the deepest level, is for growth.    Our lives are not completely mapped out.   We have certain probable paths, choices, etc.    Freewill is supreme, and we can go off the higher paths that the Soul has prechosen.

 The Soul always desires to be constructive to self and to others, but sometimes it chooses to be put in very challenging, difficult, and stressful situations and relationships.  These are meant to foster strength within self, but at the same time, within the Earth it's always a bit of a gamble, because such very challenging, etc. cirumstances and relationships can also warp the personality and cause it to go off its more constructive and pre-desired paths.  

 Such was Hitler and his life.  Such was Alexander the Great's life.    The Cayce readings on Hitler are very interesting and highly controversial.   At first, and for a bit, Cayce's guides seemed to perceive that Hitler had a lot of potential for good, and had some good ideals.  

 Later on, they seem to indicate that power had corrupted him and his ideals, and that he and Germany were fast becoming a parasite on the face Earth.   When asked by an individual, well before the end of World War 2, what was Hitler's destiny, Cayce's guides just simply said "Death."  

Yet, even these and inharmonious patterns have their place as a greater catalyst for growth.   This however does not mean a Soul wants to become like and do what Hitler did and became like.   No, it ever desires that which is most constructive and helpful for the collective and self.  Hitler it seems, got way off his path, and perhaps that was even a probability factor to begin with, but not what his Soul longed to accomplish.  

 When talking about Alexander the Great, Cayce's guides said that he the ability, the gifts, the real potential to unite the world in a constructive way, but chose to let self run wild, to become purely self aggrandizing and corrupted by power, to become a loathsome body and personality.  

 But, they also say that he came again as Thomas Jefferson, who while he had his faults and issues, he did foster light within himself and within the Earth.   Who was a more constructive leader than not.

 Funny enough, this relates to Monroe and to TMI a bit.   In reading one of Monroe's biography's, i came upon a part wherein Monroe talks about a hippy type, who came to the early TMI and claimed to have said Edgar Cayce said that Thomas Jefferson and him were part of the same Greater self, but when they tested him out, according to Monroe he psychically failed miserably (that doesn't prove or disprove anything actually related to his claims, after all neither Alex nor T.J. were known for their exceptional psychic abilities and talents).  

 Anyways, there was a young child, whose parents received readings from Cayce, whose guides said that this Soul had expressed the lives of Alexander, Thomas Jefferson, and others not so well known.   He was known by the Cayce family, and there is some background history on him, and he was known to have become somewhat of a drifter in his life, oft changing his careers, and focuses.  Seems he had a very strong Saturn energy going on.

 I find it interesting and telling though, that both Monroe and the author of his biography wrote and talked about this account and this individual in such a degrading, 'make fun of', and judgmental manner.    It shows that Monroe wasn't the all knowing psychic that some seemed to believe him to have been.    

Monroe was even deceived by those close to him, some who he thought were his friends and who seemed to have spiritual purposes.  Little did he know at the time, what their true motives were.   Now he does, but that's a different story, he's a little more wiser and aware than he was as a human.  

 Anyways, to some extent, when looking at it in a more narrow perspective, earth lives can be somewhat "hit and miss" sometimes, as regards to doing and accomplishing what we came in to actually do and accomplish.   Plenty enter with originally good intentions and ideals, but this dimension has a distorting effect on the more pure Soul energies.    

 And while it all does seem to work out in the end, we must be ever active in the present and in the now, to do and practice what we know within our hearts of hearts is right and constructive.   There is no future and no past, when reasoning from that perspective, take what is in hand now, and work with it the best way you know how.   If enough of us do this enough while in physical, then will the thousand years of peace come to the Sons and Daughters of men.   Be not passive, but ever be active as the example of he who completely overcame the world within and without.  

AhSo, are you saying that "we incarnate here and have no one making sure that we experience what we aimed to experience"? Or did I read that incorrectly?
:-)
Nanner

P.S - I know you picked that long alias name AhSoLaoTsuAhhOmmra
just to make sure that I have to learn it. I try to be polite but darn it that name is really hard to remember...lol..

While I don't want to oversimplify matters, sociology teaches us that virtually ALL minority groups are viewed identically. EX: In the US, each wave of immigrants was treated to precisely the same series of epithets, regardless of who they were or where they came from. At the present moment we're hassling ourselves over "illegal aliens". most of whom are gainfully employed, hard working, honest and faithful. However, because there is a cultural difference between the middle class American and the Latinos, they stand out as a cultural target. Perhaps an even more telling observation is the manner in which Capt Cook and his crew used Australian Aboriginal people as shooting targets because they were confident that these were not really human beings.

According to a cross cultural study I did in the late '60s, in general, anyone whom we can idnetify as different is viewed as the opposite of us. If I am creative, my "enemy" is a dullard. If I am confused, my "enemy" is a scheming mastermind. If I am happy, my "enemy" is morose by nature, and if I am sad, it's becaude my "enemy" is too frivolous and happy. It is this antothetical labelling problem that makes it hard to recognize ourselves in others.

Returning to the core question of what the Jews might have done to draw down the criticism of the world, the answer is that they maintained their traditions. Worse than that, they tended to argue, as they do today, that their religion is valid, even though it is different from that of their neighbors. Obviously, the Good People of Wherever saw this as a deliberate subversion of their culture and a terrible threat. Think, for example, how you'd feel is you were to discover that your neighbors practiced Sokkagakkai, chanting "Namyo renge kyo!", or were devout Muslims who actually knelt down five times a day and thanked Allah, the Merciful and Compassionate, for their material and spiritual blessings, or perhaps your new neighbors might wear a turban and speak Hindi, while they practiced their sinister which requires guests to take off their shoes before entering their home.  All of these are shocking because they violate our expectations, so we take our everyday image of people and invert it, and apply that to them. How dare those people be Different from Me?

In Buddhism, that is called an "attachment", and is one of the reasons that we find life to be less than perfect.

dave

Nanner wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 3:04pm:

Orlando, Is there an easy answer to my easy question? Since I wasnt born in 1543, nor 1933 but rather my title for this vehicle states I`m a 69èr. What exactly did the jewish community do inorder to reap so much havoc over such a long period of time?

I don't think there is n easy answer. I think they were an easy scapegoat for problems of all kinds - when times were hard, leaders blamed the Jews.. maybe it's partly that they had no state and were not seen as "one of us" in the countries wher they lived; or that they were seen by Christians as bad people who willfully continued to reject Jesus; or that some of them have been financially successful and so resented; in the middle ages, I believe that Christians were not meant to lend at interest to each other so Jews often acted as money lenders - an unpopular and probably "sinful" job (I believe they were also excluded from many other professions, making this one option that was available to them).

In Hitler's case, Germany was in crisis in the 1930s - inflation so bad you hd to take suitcases full of money to buy a loaf etc - and was still feeling resentful about the heavy reparations exacted from them for World War One:

In the Treaty of Versailles:

Overview
The terms of the Treaty, which Germany had no choice but to accept, were announced on May 7, 1919. Germany lost:

13% of its national territory
All of its overseas colonies (including Kamerun, German East Africa, German Southwest Africa, Togoland and German New Guinea)
12.5% of its population
16% of its coalfields, and half its iron and steel industry.
Union with Austria (Anschluss) forbidden.

They were also said to be responsible for the war and had to pay billions of dollars (in modern terms) of reparations; and were given strict limitations as to what military forces there were allowed to build up in future, and were not allowed to make or import weapons.

PS This is not meant to "justify" them taking their frustration out on the Jews.. but just as thoughts about their state of mind. Hitler argued a "pure" "Aryan" race would help make Germany strong again - hence he persecuted outsiders like Jews, gays, Gypsys etc

As for Martin Luther, it seems he at first was not anti-semitic and thought the Jews could be converted with some helpful explanations from himself about where they were going wrong, and they were only not Christian because they had been subjected to an incorrect "popish" version of the faith. He got annoyed when this turned out not to be so.

One thing about Hitler, which goes to show what unforseen reprecussions things can have, is that he really wanted to be an artist, but was turned down for art school... Apparently he was really good at drawing buildings, but not so good at people.

dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 3:44pm:

While I don't want to oversimplify matters, sociology teaches us that virtually ALL minority groups are viewed identically.

I guess this is true to some extent, thought the Jews seem to have come in for an unusually hard time..

I think it is an encouraging sign of maturity that modern western society now sees it is intrinsically wrong to dislike someone just for having a different faith or race etc etc, adn that we make efforts to try and promote this idea. I am not saying there weren't people who believed such in the past, but being (insert minority group)-ist  was more acceptable in general in the past. I think it is largely a question of better education and communication too.

In ancient times common people in the Roman empire often apparently believed such claims about Christians as that they met in secret for incestuous orgies and ate human flesh (because they called each other "brother and sister", met at private worship followed by meals, called agapes, or "love-feasts"; and believed they were eating the body of Christ in Communion...). They also stubbornly refused to take part in occasions requiring some token hommage to the emperor or traditional gods, which was seen as just being pointlessly obstinate.

Nanner wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 3:33pm:

AhSo, are you saying that "we incarnate here and have no one making sure that we experience what we aimed to experience"? Or did I read that incorrectly? :-) Nanner P.S - I know you picked that long alias name AhSoLaoTsuAhhOmmra just to make sure that I have to learn it. I try to be polite but darn it that name is really hard to remember...lol..

 

Nah, that's not exactly what i was saying, i was just trying to point out the deep shades of gray of this issue, its fairly complex and relative depending.  

 We all have helpful guides who try to keep us on track, but how often do we really listen?   There are also deceptive, ignorant, and purposely misleading forces who try to connect to and influence us.    

  The only way around the latter, is to constantly and consistently practice PUL in one's daily life, to practice and learn how to get receptive and ask for constructive sources to help, and to strengthen and harmonize the body physical with the faster vibrating mental and spiritual aspects of ones total energy system.  

 Be not afraid that there are deceptive and purposely misleading forces, who would do one and others harm, but at the same time, be consciously aware of those other factors.   Too often, people tend to shove the shadow back down under the rug, because its uncomfortable, uneasy, and upsetting to deal with unless one has developed enough centeredness and balance.

 Btw, you can call me Justin if its easier for you to remember and to write.   I vibe a bit more with Justinah or Justinuah, but Justin is my earthly given name.  

If one lived completely according to love, one would find it impossible to consider it acceptable for beings to be stuck in a hell like realm for all of eternity.  I don't see how loving beings could share a state of eternal perfection with each other, if they knew that others are suffering.

As opposed to getting into whether Adolph Hitler (and the many who consorted with him) could've done differently regardless of how he was influenced during his life, I'll take the prodigal son story approach, as Jesus shared in the gospels. God and any being who lives according to the same love and wisdom that God lives according to, loves it when a soul sees the error of its ways, and returns to God and a loving way of being. Just as one would be very happy if one's lost child reversed his or her negative ways of being.

When one wants a wrong doer to be punished for his (or her) actions, one takes part in the same hateful way of being, regardless of how one tries to justify one's vengeful way of viewing things.  

If one wants to experience oneness, one needs to reach the point where when one sees another doing wrong, one understands that another part of one's greater self is doing wrong. Not some being who has absolutely nothing to do with who one is.

That's part of the problem with the devil concept. It supposes that something exists that is other than God. Perhaps some of us just need more time to learn how to make use of our creative energy in a loving way. Especially if we take on a lifetime that has a lot of negative influences. If a person doesn't believe that influences matter much, then why have people such as Jesus bothered with trying to influence people in a positive way?

Just wanted to say i agree with you recoverer. Also, an example from Buddhism - the Buddha accepted a mass murderer, Angulimala, as one of his monks, after he repented of what he had done and wanted to change  - an example of infinite forgiveness and of human potential to move on from bad deeds. He is said to have achieved enlightenment before he died

I agree with you Orlando.

What is the point of punishing somebody if they let go of the mental tendencies that caused them to do wrong, and if their victims now live in heaven?

I bet you Hitler's victims aren't looking for Hitler to be punished. Not if they are abiding in a higher realm. Rather, they are hoping that Hitler recognizes his mistakes (perhaps he already has), and do what he needs to correct his way of being.

My guess is that any spirit/person who changes from an unloving way of being to a loving way of being feels great remorse, guilt and shame when it comes to grips with the wrong it has done. To a being who recognizes the importance of love, such feelings would be more torturious than what takes place in a lower realm. I figure no being moves from darkness to light, without taking full responsibility for the wrongs it did. Such a being would probably be far more harsh with itself, than the beings who try to help it.



orlando123 wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 5:01pm:

Just wanted to say i agree with you recoverer. Also, an example from Buddhism - the Buddha accepted a mass murderer, Angulimala, as one of his monks, after he repented of what he had done and wanted to change  - an example of infinite forgiveness and of human potential to move on from bad deeds. He is said to have achieved enlightenment before he died

For me its very intersting to see that alot of people here have and live out their "feelings" in regards to WWII / Hitler and any other circumstance which equals the same and some of us due to age in this board merely know the war and its effects thru "story telling", yet it effects a "spot" in us, as if "we" lived it ourselves.

I really believe in my heart that Hitlers soul has come to understand and moved on to a higher consciousness level. In doing what we are doing right now, we too are moving ourselves and many others to a higher consciousness level.

Compassion, love - is whats happening folks and thats just mountain-ious  :-? (new Nanner word) I thank all of you for the insight into perspectives, what it collectively amounted to has been PUL.

I now believe I can feel that WWII served its purpose, when I read the words of this entire thread again.

Heres a message from a german lady to all of the world.
WWII served its purpose, for we all over the world are choosing our free will, not to be that way again. To love & laugh with you in times of joy and cry with you when you are hurting in your country, meaning that the souls whom crossed over by means of WWII did not do so in vain

Sending good thoughts,
Nanner

Justin - Quote: We all have helpful guides who try to keep us on track, but how often do we really listen?   There are also deceptive, ignorant, and purposely misleading forces who try to connect to and influence us.    

What are the means you know of that "Guides" make themselves known by?  
Nanner

AhSo, Interesting your comment goes back to what Cayce's guides said again. That Hitler started out basically good but then became corrupt. Sort of what I said in part. His life choice may have been to do good, and in fact he did do good. His method of doing it was not so good. In the end of the lifetime is it not the result that counts??

You mention this Cayce person and his guides so often,  is he/they your mentor(s)?

By the way... what would the "ah: or "uah" mean or indicate at the end of your name as you would like more to be called in an effort to, at you put it "vibe a bit more"? Please share. (and excuse my ignorance)
Joe

Lucy, I asked that question for you about Hitlers soul on their Q & A Forum on www.jenseits-de.com site. I find it exceptionally well answered by Peter H. Kirchner and am thankful for the vivid insight.  ~Nanner~

Nanner
That was indeed interesting. We could have a new thread on just the creation ideas on Peter's site, and his answer makes more sense in the context of the explanation he has for creation on his site. I'm not sure what I think of his comments about firat copies, second, so forth, so the answer is a little hard to 100% believe.So when he says Hitler was a soul from the angelic level that came here to full fill a role and manifested a lower level of conciousness, I'm not sure what I think. If that is correct, then we surely do not have a grip on how reality is working. There is alot to think about there. Thank you for asking Peter. He seems like an interesting person, certainly open-minded.

Ha, what just happened was amusing to me. I was playing some music on the computer, and then I went to the opening of Peter's site, and that has its own music, and both were playing. I didn't know that was possible. But that's how things feel some times. Two lines of thought/music coming through at the same time. Talk about mixed messages!

Anyway, Peter says "This site teaches a model of creation that was conveyed to us by our spirit guides. A model is a construct trying to explain something that cannot be described in words, as there are no words in our vocabulary with which to describe it, nor is there anything on earth with which it could be compared. There are other models and personal realities..." and I think I can agree with that.

I am curious to see if the time line he projects is fulfilled.

For Dave

Quote:

Returning to the core question of what the Jews might have done to draw down the criticism of the world, the answer is that they maintained their traditions. Worse than that, they tended to argue, as they do today, that their religion is valid, even though it is different from that of their neighbors. Obviously, the Good People of Wherever saw this as a deliberate subversion of their culture and a terrible threat. Think, for example, how you'd feel is you were to discover that your neighbors practiced Sokkagakkai, chanting "Namyo renge kyo!", or were devout Muslims who actually knelt down five times a day and thanked Allah, the Merciful and Compassionate, for their material and spiritual blessings, or perhaps your new neighbors might wear a turban and speak Hindi, while they practiced their sinister which requires guests to take off their shoes before entering their home.

I thought the problem that caused animosity was calling themselves THE Chosen People, but then again was it Pius IV who started the Inquisition? I would have been boiled early on, believe me. And he made it very unpleasant for the Jews.  I am wondering if the West Coast is so  isolated, I have had coworkers who kept their prayer rugs handy and used them (thought there is some difference between Sunni and Shiite in whether others can touch the rug, I've heard) and we have celebrated Diwali and Chinese New Year (I approve of any good holiday with food) at work. Urbanites have a strange mix of tolerance and intolerance. I get more upset when I see H1B's hired over Americans and have to go back to the drawing board on the "you create your own reality" thing when that happens. Blacks were better off staying in their own neighborhoods back when there was an Irish mayor, but that is changed now. The best cannoli are in one end of town, the best delis in another. I guess what is tolerated depends on what food people want. NAd my first daycare person for my kid had one of those houses where you take off your shoes, which was fine with me. I was more upset when she talked about how dark the Indian Muslims were compared to the Pakistani (having grown up in the South I knew all those arguments!). Maybe when there is no food involved we invent walls.

Hawkeye (...did you once post at White Dove???) Justin can tell you much more about Cayce than I can but he really is interesting, particularly for his time frame.

Here is a web site devoted to his work:
http://www.edgarcayce.org/

my opinion - hitler was just a person like the rest of us, and he was imperfect like the rest of us.  it's truly as simple as that.  anyone who thinks hitler was some unordinary person is not seeing the truth, because every human has the potential to be as bad as he was.  there is a piece of "hitler" (or "evil") in all of us.  for some of us it is greater than others, and that's what reincarnation and burning off karma to perfect yourself is all about.  

we like to think of hitler as a non-human evil entity because we don't want to admit that we have the potential for evil within ourselves.

Nanner wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 6:16pm:

Justin - Quote: We all have helpful guides who try to keep us on track, but how often do we really listen?   There are also deceptive, ignorant, and purposely misleading forces who try to connect to and influence us.     What are the means you know of that "Guides" make themselves known by?   Nanner

 

 It's probably different for different people.   Most consistently and on average, dreams are a major avenue for and of guidance.  

 For those who have practiced going within a lot in this and/or in other lives, then sometimes one gets more conscious messages, which can take the form of deep and sure feelings about something, unbidden visuals, streaming movie/dream sequences, symbols, sounds, words, a physical sensation, etc.  

  I've experienced all the above at one point or another.  

 Most of the time though, sometimes certain thoughts and/or feelings out of the blue can pop into one's head and/or heart.    

 I'll use a silly and recent personal example.   I've seen kids with those Heely shoes, where they can skate around just on their shoes.   I've thought to myself, "Man, that's so friqqin cool, i want to get a pair of those!"  

  But i didn't actively pursue it, and didn't even know if they had adult sizes.   So, this desire and intention went on what i call the "back burner" for awhile.   The other day though, i'd figured i visit a store that i hadn't been to in awhile, to pick up a couple of things.  

 Near to the store in the same shopping plaza, was a shoe store and one i don't remember seeing or noticing before.  Now, i'm not much of a shopper or consumer, and i had just bought myself a pair of cheap sneakers a little while before, so i wasn't looking for a regular new pair of shoes.  

 But for some reason, the impulsive feeling and thought came to me out of the blue, hey why don't you go visit that store?   I was like, ok i have a little time to kill right now.   So i went in, and in the store i noticed a pair of shoes on clearance, half off from their original price, and they were adult sized Heely's which fit.    Course i felt and thought, "whoo hoo the Universe provided!  Now i can skate around in stores like one of those little kids!"  
 Needless to say, i bought them. And i promptly began doing the former, and now people look at me as if i have 3 heads or something. ::)
 Point being, normally i wouldn't have gone into that store under those conditions, but something, some aspect of self or guidance with more awareness than my conscious personality, beamed a thought/feeling strongly into my energy field, which inclined me to go into the store anyway.  

 Some have called it the still small voice.  It takes trust and receptivity to be able to listen to, hear, and follow that little nudging.  

 Now, some like my wife, tend to get more overt signs from their guidance.   When at The Gateway Voyage program at TMI, she asked to meet one of her guides.   As she got deeper in meditation, a powerful pressure or electromagnetic like wave of energy pushed through one end of her CHEC unit (she said it was like there was an earthquake), went through her and while it did she felt this electric, tingling, orgasmic type reactions, perceived or sensed a lot of powerful White Light type energy, and then went through to the other side of her CHEC unit.  

 She realized later on that her guidance had "waved" hi to her.   For her on her path, she has needed more overt, more physically oriented, and more "in your face" and bells and whistles type guidance messages.   Partly because, she tends to have more doubt and skepticism regarding stuff like the above as compared to some.  Plus, she kind of has a dramatic personality, and i guess stuff like that fits more with her expectations?

 I've noticed that for some especially for those who have been on the path for a long while and who have developed a lot of faith and trust, guidance can become ever more subtle in nature, on average.    One may still get some of the bells and whistle type experiences and messages, but more and more, one begins to just rely on a type of inner, feeling oriented intuition, though not a "gut" reaction as some say.   For me, its more like a combo of Heart and 3rd eye type perceiving or sensing.   A deep, inner intuitive knowingess which contains both feelings and thought patterns.        

 

hawkeye wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 7:02pm:

AhSo, Interesting your comment goes back to what Cayce's guides said again. That Hitler started out basically good but then became corrupt. Sort of what I said in part. His life choice may have been to do good, and in fact he did do good. His method of doing it was not so good. In the end of the lifetime is it not the result that counts?? You mention this Cayce person and his guides so often,  is he/they your mentor(s)? By the way... what would the "ah: or "uah" mean or indicate at the end of your name as you would like more to be called in an effort to, at you put it "vibe a bit more"? Please share. (and excuse my ignorance) Joe

 Justin is just fine for now.   You seem rather curious about my personhood and beliefs Joe.   What does it matter what i think or believe, especially about myself?  

 Names are vibratory patterns.  Earthly given names, rarely fully reflect our more true soul names. My energies and vibrations align or vibe in sync more with the two latter possibilities i mentioned.  

 Besides the more "esoteric" reasoning, i have a guy friend who is gay, and occasionally he calls me "Justina", partly because when he first met me, he was surprised by how in touch i was with my feminine side, he thought it was very unusual for a non gay man to be like that or something and so nicknamed me Justina, which i didn't mind.   I've actually kind of grown fond of the moniker.  In some ways, it does seem to fit more.   Oh, he also may call me Justina because he is from Poland originally, and it kind of sounds more Polish i guess?    Who knows, i don't.  

  Personally, i look forward to the day when i transcend names.  Names are for Soul and Earthly lives.   In Spirit, one doesn't have or need a name, which is probably when Monroe talked to "He/She", this person laughed after Monroe apologized for the odd label, and said, one name is a good as any other.   Names correspond to relativity.   Spirit is absolute and beyond names, which but would limit and you can't box in that which is infinite.   I long for Spirit.

Lucy wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 9:13pm:

Nanner That was indeed interesting. We could have a new thread on just the creation ideas on Peter's site, and his answer makes more sense in the context of the explanation he has for creation on his site. I'm not sure what I think of his comments about firat copies, second, so forth, so the answer is a little hard to 100% believe.So when he says Hitler was a soul from the angelic level that came here to full fill a role and manifested a lower level of conciousness, I'm not sure what I think. If that is correct, then we surely do not have a grip on how reality is working. There is alot to think about there. Thank you for asking Peter. He seems like an interesting person, certainly open-minded. Ha, what just happened was amusing to me. I was playing some music on the computer, and then I went to the opening of Peter's site, and that has its own music, and both were playing. I didn't know that was possible. But that's how things feel some times. Two lines of thought/music coming through at the same time. Talk about mixed messages! Anyway, Peter says "This site teaches a model of creation that was conveyed to us by our spirit guides. A model is a construct trying to explain something that cannot be described in words, as there are no words in our vocabulary with which to describe it, nor is there anything on earth with which it could be compared. There are other models and personal realities..." and I think I can agree with that. I am curious to see if the time line he projects is fulfilled.

Yes I agree, go ahead and start a new thread on that if you like, I`ll definately be a part of it as it interests me a great deal.

Love for all,
Nanner

Justin,
I know exactly what you mean - that happens to me all the time and I`ve never talked about it, because I am just "thankful" for it. Everytime I see something friggin cool, then around the corner it turns out to be made available in some form ot fashion. Thanks for the tips on where the Guides help us.
Nanner

Hi! Dear Nanna,

You make some intelligent and telling points. there is a reason why god allowed Hitler to do what he did, but he was not forced to do and  he just like the rest of us is accountable for what we do with our lives while on earth, There is somewhere a collective human responsibility  war


You so very correct in saying there is a collective responsibility for the atrocities on both sides of that awful terrible war. However, there is a difference between accountability and resopnsibity.Resonsibilty can be delegated downwards to the lesser ranks but “accountability” never ever Remember Harry Truman’s famous saying, "The buck stops here" "That is accountability". Hitler started the war so he is “accountable” as Germanys then leader.

Of course, we all have a little Hitler in us, but we control it and don’t put into action. Looking at the grand order of things, you are right God allowed Hitler to do what he did for a reason that is beyond my comprehension.

As a full-blooded American German, you should know that Hitler was not a German but an Austrian. He was not allowed to vote in the German election that gave him power in Germany as he was a citizen of Germany.” Interesting".

Love

Alan

Woe, thats kool - I`m a fullblooded american german now. I give it up, and say this:
I was born in germany, raised in South Carolina and act like I am from New York...lol.. That officially makes me "an Alien!"... Hows that?
Love to ya,
Nanner

Lucy, Thanks for the link to the Cayce site. I will be looking with great interest. As for "White Dove" , no never been nor heard of it.

Justin, I was thinking that as you mention the Cayce person so often you might be willing to share with me who he is. Lucy was good enough to have been able to forward me a link so I can look him up as you didn't respond with an answer. Its not that I really care what you think Justin, it is more due to me just not knowing and having curiosity about the afterlife. There are times when your knowledge stands out. Astrology looks like a strong point for you for instance. I thought as you mention Cayce so often in your posts, be able to provide me some of the info. No matter, your indisposedness is noted and I will refrain from seeking info from you. Excuse me for imposing, it won't happin again. Not to worry as I know other are more inclined and are open to share.
Joe    

Lucy, Thanks again. I had a look at the site. Looks interesting and when I make my way into town I will have a look at a book store for more info. Having never been polluted by reading a bunch on the spiritual, I look forward to reading what he had to say. Thank you.
Joe

hawkeye wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 2:10pm:

Justin, I was thinking that as you mention the Cayce person so often you might be willing to share with me who he is. Lucy was good enough to have been able to forward me a link so I can look him up as you didn't respond with an answer. Its not that I really care what you think Justin, it is more due to me just not knowing and having curiosity about the afterlife. There are times when your knowledge stands out. Astrology looks like a strong point for you for instance. I thought as you mention Cayce so often in your posts, be able to provide me some of the info. No matter, your indisposedness is noted and I will refrain from seeking info from you. Excuse me for imposing, it won't happin again. Not to worry as I know other are more inclined and are open to share. Joe

 Joe, you've never heard of or knew of Edgar Cayce until Lucy posted that link?   If that's the case, then sorry, i would have just explained some about him.    Course, i've also been on this site for quite awhile now, have talked a lot about him and his history at times, and figured that even if you hadn't read any books directly about or on him, that you've read some of my posts or have heard of him from others.  

 In the American Library of Congress, he and his work is the most referenced to subject in relation to books in this country--hundreds of books about him, his work, etc, and many more references.  Many of these books have gone to other countries.  Virtually everyone i've known or talked to, who has become interested in spiritual stuff for any length of time, has heard about the American prophet, as he was coined by some.

  He is known quite well globally, and in that sense is as well known or more so than Bob Monroe and TMI.   Probably more so, because his work has been around for much longer, relatively speaking.

 His work started in the early 1900's and continued to his death in 1945, but the A.R.E continues it today.   His work pretty much was one the most influential influences on both the "New Age" and Holistic/Alternative health movements in both this country and around the world.  

 See, somethings tells me that you have heard of him before this reply to you.   Hawkeye, yes indeed.   "oh ye Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducee's come again, ye white washed tombs, ye hypocrites and liars, who bring men to death and not to life."  

I hope for your sake, that this does not apply to you Joe.   Hawkeye+Joe+Joe McMonEagle, + Joe aka Hawkeye mentioning and promoting Joe McMoneagle and his work on more than a couple of occasions here= Justin suspicious since both he and his wife have gotten guidance in relation to both J.M. and to misleading forces in general.  

 What is that saying, "half truths are worse than whole lies, for they can deceive even the Soul".   I hope you are not one who excels at half truths.  

You wrote,  
Quote:

Not to worry as I know other are more inclined and are open to share.

 I've shared plenty with you in the past in regards to my beliefs and perceptions.  However, why would i want to answer an extremely personally spiritual question like you asking me, why do you feel that Ah or uah added to your name is something you vibe more to.  

Take care, and nice chatting with you.  See ya in the White Light.  I do sincerely hope my perceptions in regards to you are in error.   I will try to keep an open mind, because either way, i know that you are my brother, we're a part of each other and of Source.

"There is no good, there is no evil.  There is only experience (Robert Monroe)"  "Sieg Heil!"
__________________________________________________________________________

The greatest mass murderer in US history is Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahome City Bomber.  Tim was an altar boy in Good Shepherd Catholic Church about 2 miles from where I used to live in Lockport, New York.  When the day of his execution drew near, the national media descended on the Lockport area and virtually camped out on the front lawn of Tim's Dad. There were the usual senstive questions: e. g.  "How does it feel to have a son who is the most hated man in America!"  "How do you feel about your son getting "juiced" next week?"  The attitude of the locals was reported as hostile and uncooperative.  I was in a unique position to understand why.

Tim was remembered as a very normal, likeable teenager, who had served as an altar boy and latern worked at the local Burger King.  His high school teachers remembered him as a sweet young guy that everyone liked.  I knew a woman who had a dating relationship with Tim before he joined the army and was sent off to Desert Storm.  She recalled that he was a good boyfriend--thoughtful, considerate, and fun to be with.  The locals did not want to cooperate with the media because the media were trying to dig up "dirt" on Tim, and the locals knew that no such "dirt" existed.  More importantly, they preferred to remember Tim they way he was before Desert Storm.  When I was a college professor,

I had an extremely polite and hard-working student who took 3 religion courses from me.  In his senior year, it was discovered that he was making a devastating bomb in his dorm room.  I was shocked.  He was the least likely suspect imaginable.

Evil is a great mystery and the human heart screams for an easy explanation.  But the journey towards Evil often goes through a subtle maze of seemingly innocent decisions that ultimately create an evil persona overnight.   We must resist the temptation to trivialize the complexity of this journey into darkness.  Those who have studied that Nazi Holocaust in depth are most struck by the sheer banality of the mounting evil and the difficulty of grasping the cruelty of the Nazi guards from the perspective of the background and upbringing of the German soldiers involved.  

Don

 Hi Don, my sense is that Monroe was a bit off in the interpretations of the info he received nonphysically.

 When he got that, there is no good and evil, thing, he was tapping into those who are completed and One with the Creator again.  

 From the Creator's perspective, there is only love of its children, of its creation.   It sees the beauty and perfection inherent in Creation.

 But, there is another balance to consider, the perspective of Creation and Creation still moving towards that perfection and beauty.   Bob was not perfectly balanced within self, and wasn't able to fully and accurately reconcile this whole Yin-Yang polarity like Yeshua could and did.  

 Perhaps because he had been too focussed on the Yang aspect of Creation for so much of his life, he temporarily became to imbalanced, focussed on, and over polarized to the Yin aspect of Creation in order for him to gain a greater, overall balance?  I've met very, very few who can even reconcile that paradox in even a mental sense, let alone someone who lives it perfectly like Yeshua did and does.

  The whole, we are One and there is no good and evil, IS that Yin aspect of Reality, but its only half of it.  

  You seem to interpret Monroe's teachings and sayings as something sinister, when really it must might be the case of a imbalanced and faulty receiving "device", who while more open and aware of the nonphysical as compared to many in his time, wasn't completely at One with Source because he didn't completely live that atOneMent like Yeshua could and did.  After all, even the completed consciousnesses he communicated with, told him he wasn't ready for their existence/reality yet because he was still incomplete.

 Personally, i cannot fault him for that, since i like him don't hold that perfect balance.   Do you?  Does anyone here?   There are some here who are getting close, but what is that saying, "close but no cigars."

 It doesn't have to be sinister, I believe Monroe meant well to and for others.  Isn't that what counts, isn't the try for righteousness what matters more?  Our intents, motivations, and deepest desires?

 How many folks in the Bible, like Moses for example, who didn't always live up to and practice perfectly the ways of the Lord, but whose try was counted to them as righteousness because they all in all meant well and believed in the right ideals, etc.?

 Why turn it into such a black and white issue?

Berserk2 wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 3:50pm:

Evil is a great mystery and the human heart screams for an easy explanation.  But the journey towards Evil often goes through a subtle maze of seemingly innocent decisions that ultimately create an evil persona overnight.   We must resist the temptation to trivialize the complexity of this journey into darkness.  Those who have studied that Nazi Holocaust in depth are most struck by the sheer banality of the mounting evil and the difficulty of grasping the cruelty of the Nazi guards from the perspective of the background and upbringing of the German soldiers involved.   Don

So true, Don. Does innocence exist, for anyone? It seems to be a very fleeting thing in a human life.

It is so important that we try to remember that there but for the grace of God go I.  However, to remember this with true humility is very difficult at times, for each of us.

In fact, it seems to be even more important to reach the conclusion eventually that "there go I."

love, blink :)

AhSo, No I'm no JM. I am not sure what posts you speek of that you mention but I did post on him in regards to his ability in finding lost children and others. I don't find that evil.(?)I didn't find his book on predictions very good or accurate. I also found him to have what I thought was an over inflated ego, somewhat how I find you. I did enjoy some of his stories, again somewhat like yours.
As for this Cayce, I do think I have heard the name before but as I haven't been into the spirituality thing for to long he has just never clicked to me. I have never read anyone. Bob and Bruce being my first. Except the Bible some years back. Now there a story if I ever read one. I found it good but a little repetitive. Good ending, lots of drama and suspense. Kind of left me wanting more or even expecting a second book or something like that. Perhaps they will come up with one.
I don't get what you are saying ...oh ye Pharisees etc. Pls explain.
As for the "ah" or "auh" added to your name, I thought you were tring to make your name more like how you call Jesus or something like that. Thought it seamed a little weird and thats why I asked. Sorry if you find it personal, it was you who posted your desire to have it added to your name here first.
As for the sharing part I disagree that you have. You didn't want to talk about how you thought the future was going to be when I asked or about this name thing of yours. All you really said is about how its so wrong to eat animals and how Veg heads are so much more higher vibed. What you did do was express you opinion.
Now to the half truth thing... Yes your part right Justin, I did speek to you in what might be called a half truth. My true thoughts are that you may well be somewhat evil. I find you very closed minded and you seam only willing to except your point of view. You give me the impression that you think you are more knowing or better that the rest of us here. And there are a few more things that I would say but at the risk of getting booted from the site, I just won't express them. So no half truth there. Just a bit of caution on my part.
So in conclusion to this truth of mine, the final thing for me to express what I have personaly been thinking for quite some time...  You may have wrote your name the wrong way. I think it should start with AsHo.
Joe      

My apologies to the board.
Joe

Hawkeye:

If below is how you're going to finish your post, perhaps Ahso does know more than "YOU!"  

Golly gee, Ahso had the nerve to suggest that perhaps it isn't right for people to raise 65 billion animals a year in harsh conditions, just so they can entertain their taste buds. How dare he have a perspective that might represent a higher way of thinking than others. How dare he be willing to acknowledge that things such as false gurus and false channeled sources just might exist, when others aren't willing. Is he on some sort of superiority trip?

Doesn't a message board lose its value if people aren't even allowed to speak passionately about the things they believe in? What's next? No public protests because they are too argumentative?



Ahso:

Perhaps you should bow down to any misleading source of information that asks you to do so, so people will think you're a cool dude who doesn't believe that he knows better than other people. ;)


hawkeye wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 7:40pm:

You may have wrote your name the wrong way. I think it should start with AsHo. Joe

Theres quite a bit of Testosterone being sprayed here for the moment and that demonstrates exactly how a "harmless intent" can get out of hand and hurt many in the process - I believe it was the threads whole intention to begin with, to show the difference in peace, understanding, and view trading with the goal of trying to see what the Hitler regime did wrong.

Are the testosterone sprayers trying to "run me off" by having a peeing contest? If so, your doing a pretty good job of it. Can we agree on allowing other peoples views be it whatever it may be, to simply be accepted in an unconditional way?

:'(
Nanner

Nanner:

Sometimes people speak passionately about things, because they care enough to do so.  Consider a man like Martin Luther King. Chances are that he didn't always feel perfectly balanced. Chances are that some people didn't like him questioning their racist opinions (How dare he?). Yet he went ahead and did what he did because he understood that if everybody waited to be a perfect saint before they took action, and if nobody ever did anything that might ruffle another person's feathers, noting would ever get done.

It is true that the people on this forum who erk people aren't doing something of the same magnitude as Martin Luther King, but if something is important, then it is important. For example, my guess is that the 65 billion animals that get raised in harsh conditions each year think it's important, and the millions of people who get misled by false gurus and false channeled sources think it's important, even if they haven't come around to realizing this yet.

On the other hand, we can take an everything is hip and cool approach even if they aren't.


Nanner wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 8:09pm:

Theres quite a bit of Testosterone being sprayed here for the moment and that demonstrates exactly how a "harmless intent" can get out of hand and hurt many in the process - I believe it was the threads whole intention to begin with, to show the difference in peace, understanding, and view trading with the goal of trying to see what the Hitler regime did wrong. Are the testosterone sprayers trying to "run me off" by having a peeing contest? If so, your doing a pretty good job of it. Can we agree on allowing other peoples views be it whatever it may be, to simply be accepted in an unconditional way? :'( Nanner

Joe,
the apoligy you wrote to the board I find should be farmost directed to Justin, you were referring to him as being an A-hole and if thats the case then I must like A-holes. Which is fine by me. I find he contributes very broad minded and adds a great deal of carisma to the topics he answers on, his view points are of equal importance to me as yours providing these are non-distructive to the concept of communication. So I just hope you take a moment to reflect where your anger really comes from instead of what happened in that thread.

If you were my biological brother I would right about now ask you to go change your tampon, but since your not I`ll settle for "please go blow your nose, it`ll clear your head abit honey"..

We are here constructively speaking to each other about some pretty sticky subjects and its just not okay to disrespect an opinion. Speak against it yeah, but not disrespect.

I`d really like to hug both but I`m affraid I`d get hit.. Think about it for a min.

Love,
Nanner

Okay recoverer, I understand - it still makes me very very sad when passionate speaking exchanges places with below the belt. I`ll try to behave and practice in even more understanding. Nanner

 Hi Joe, i apologize to you if i am in error about the possibility that i brought up.   Please try to understand that its only recently that i've become more fully aware that there are those in the psychical/government/private interest world who try to mess with some people.   This has made me a bit more wary and suspicious than i normally would be with my Jupiter Rising, Sun Merc CON trine Jupiter, Leo Rising in Sag. decant, Aquarian Venus in 7th almost exactly sextile Neptune.
 I'm basically an open and trusting person, or have strong tendencies to same, but if you get messed with, manipulated, deceived, etc enough in your lives, like i have, then you begin to keep your eyes and ears more open and discriminating.   Thankfully, despite all my really challenging experiences with people in this life and in others, i still basically love people and look for the good in life and in others.

 I've gotten repeated guidance in relation to the above 2nd sentence issue and i'm not going to start mistrusting my own guidance, or my Twin Soul's, at this point.   I may not be interpreting completely accurately, but the general gist is pretty straightforward and obvious at this point.  

 Hence, i'm a little more suspicious of people i don't know, and especially those who say they have strong spiritual beliefs but who argue with me that eating meat is ethically fine and spiritual, start asking me all kinds of questions which i know aren't just purely honest curiosity, etc.  

  So, let's consider a hypothetical situation for a moment, with all the above in mind.   Say you were really Joe M. and that Joe M. truly was someone who still works for the gov. or some private and corrupt self/materialistic interest group and his job is to mislead people about spiritual and earth changes info or to uncenter those unusually spiritually attuned, do you think they would really say "hey it's me folks" if someone said that this was possible out loud and in public?    
 Come one, that would be a little too naive of me to believe, wouldn't you say.    These deceptive forces are just that, deceptive, and i've realized that the best way to deceive people, is to inject just enough truth so that it may ring a person's Soul bells, but to twist the rest, and otherwise lie and manipulate.  My sense is that Joe M. is a very bright, intelligent, very perceptive in some ways, and cunning guy.  I'm good at reading people's auras, and especially so when in physical proximity to them, which i have been with Joe.

 Also, I asked him a direct question about the nature of time while at TMI, and his response was totally b.s. and inaccurate.

  As far as Yeshua goes, his name, and the fact that i vibe with my name having a more ah type sound, its not because i over identify with him (in some respects i do sometimes, but not in this particular case), but because it seems to fit better and i'm energy sensitive enough to know such things like that.   Ah seems to be a feminine vibration, and i'm very in touch with my feminine side.   Hence why my  guy friend who is gay, nicknamed me Justina and only partly jokingly.  

 Dunno, does that bother you?   And what if i did identify myself with Yeshua?   Since i don't believe i'm him and i know i don't live up to his example, and just look to him as my teacher and example, what's the big deal?    Fact of the matter is, i know i do have deeper karmic and spiritual connections to him, and in a sense everyone has spiritual connections to him (whether they know it or not), so really its no big deal either way.   I just really, really love and respect the guy, i respect him much more than i respect Cayce, Monroe, Moen, etc.    He did what none of them did.

 When i first started the in home Gateway set, i started having dreams about both Yeshua and Christ.   I've been intensely attracted to him and his teachings since age i hit puberty, and i was raised in a non religious and laid back environment, and my first deeper studies were into Eastern belief systems primarily.   I don't think i would have had the experiences i've had with him, if he thought i would start to think of myself too much in an egotistical "special" kind of way.   Yeshua goes out his way to deconstruct such limiting notions in others.   He realized i could spiritually handle it, just as my Greater self realized i could handle all the "past life" info i've gotten and which has been verified in many, sometimes even surprising to me, ways.

 Joe, perhaps you are projecting a bit onto me.   Many spiritual teachers or guides have noted that oft what we find fault with and emotionally judge in others, or something about someone that makes us irked about them, is something we really dislike in ourselves.   Something to think about perhaps.

 Again, sorry if i am wrong about you, but please realize that i have good reason to be a bit wary and suspicious of some right now.  Maybe if you have had the experiences and guidance that i've had, you also may be more inclined to be more tolerant of this?

 Either way, i didn't say that i definitely believe that, and that you must be Joe M., i just brought up the possibility.   I do find it interesting that i've seen you toot his horn rather blatantly a few times, but then later say more critical things about him when i directly pointed out some things.    I'm a pretty observant guy, and like Joe M., a Capricorn Sun.   We're good at reading between the lines and seeing things that many others miss, kind of like Scorpio Sun in that respect.
Putting the whole Joe thing aside for now, you seem to be quite familiar with TMI and all, would you say that there are gov. connections to same right now?   Would you say that the U.S. government is completely benign, spiritual, and loving in its practices?  Would you say that it lacks corruption, materialism, strong ego and selfish tendencies?

  Dunno, these are important questions in relation to the Whole of the issues that i've brought up.   There may be others who are also aware of the same things that i'm aware of, but apparently they are either brighter than i ;) LOL or have more fear in them.    Seeing as i hold Yeshua as my teacher and example, i would be a false student if i lived my life in any lesser way than he did, and he had no fear in him regarding being harmed.  

recoverer wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 8:00pm:

Is he on some sort of superiority trip?

 Maybe i should clarify a bit on this.  While i'm not on a superiority trip, to be honest, occasionally i still have some superiority tendencies and thought patterns come up.  Occasionally i start focusing a bit too much on thinking or feeling something like, "Justin, you are starting to vibrate very fast" Or "Hmm, not to many seem to understand you and your perceptions from a deeper or holistic viewpoint" or something like that.  

 But when that starts to creep up in me, i've gotten to the point that i can recognize pretty immediately such limiting and negative/unloving tendencies and thought and/or emotional patterns, and i always try to shift it a more impersonal, universal, and less self oriented attitude.   If i start thinking or feeling the above, i may start trying to think/feel something like, "Justin, you're just a drop in the ocean that is Creation, it's everyone's destiny and very nature to be Source attuned/realized so its no big deal, Justin focus less on self and more on giving of self, there are other consciousnesses out there who blow your current spiritual attunement out of the water, etc."  

I try to accept that part of me (meaning i don't try to fight too much against it), but i try to move past it and focus on something different and which conforms more to my basic spiritual ideals and inner most knowing.

 See, i have a hard time believing, with what i know of human nature and the human condition, that i'm the only one who has the above paragraph tendencies.   I think anyone who hasn't fully attuned to Source, who hasn't fully regenerated and transformed false parts of self into only True Self, may occasionally have similar thought or feeling patterns come up.   I think a matter of recognizing that or not, has a lot to do with how much self honesty and self perception a person has.
What's important, and what separates the more "spiritual" person, from the not so spiritually mature person, is what one tries to consciously focus on when such limiting thoughts and feelings arise.  

 I always try to give the power back to the Creator and i constantly try to remind myself that i  can do nothing of import, in and of myself, if i'm not attuning the Source's ways and consciousness.  
 The fact is, is that it takes a certain amount of humility, for one to focus on and try to follow the teachings and example of a spiritual teacher, to constantly hold up ones ways and patterns to such a pure Light, like i try with Christ.   Many out there lately seem to say, "i need no teacher or example, i know what's best for me and my spiritual growth"   And always the emphasis seems to be strongly on SELF.   Like with Joe here, its kind of a iconoclastic attitude, which is very Uranian in nature.   Bob Monroe had a bit too much of that in him as well for much of his life, i get the sense of.

 I'm all for going within, getting inner guidance and all that stuff, but unless one has a pure standard to compare too, to look to, to see what is real and true Source attunement, then one is kind of groping around in the dark to some degree.  We're lost and can't think our way into being found.  

 Humans are notoriously good at self deception and convenient for self's negative beliefs, perceptions, and ways of being.  Which is why so many, when they come upon Seth or Elias for example, convince themselves that they have found the higher truths, because sources like these cater to their iconoclastic and overly self focussed ways of being and thinking.   Or as virtually every major spiritual belief system has said in one way or another, "like attracts and begets like."    Not enough people seem to really understand that simple but universal law and energy reaction.   Or that we humans tend to be much, much more unconscious to self, others, and the whole of life than we are conscious.


Quote:

Ahso: Perhaps you should bow down to any misleading source of information that asks you to do so, so people will think you're a cool dude who doesn't believe that he knows better than other people. ;)

 Perhaps  :D   I suppose that if i was here for and deeply desired to be liked, well respected, to 'fit in', and to make personal friends, i might change my erring ways.   But my attitude is, people either can accept me for who i am, or not.   I try to strike a balance between being considerate and sensitive, to being honest and authentic about what i feel and think.   Sometimes, i've found for me at least, that its a hard balance to achieve.  

 I believe "love" is bigger than the definitions that most give to it.  Many in our world, seem to concentrate on what i call the more feminine aspect of love, which is yielding, receptive, very gentle, and nurturing.  
Yet, i believe there is also a more masculine side to love, which is more akin to what some call "tough love", discrimination, not supporting other's illusions and destructive ways, sometimes being in someone's face so to speak, being firm and disciplined, etc.   You mentioned Martin Luther King Jr., he was one who sometimes had to show and focus on that aspect of the expression of love.  

 Both expressions while different on the outside, still have the same basic motivation, concern for others and not wanting to see people suffer, to want to see others happy and whole.   My own guidance shows me both but at different times, or sometimes combines them, which frankly is hard for most incarnate people to completely achieve and always practice.  

Because I am a human being, I, too often wondered why there are people like Hitler who are "allowed" to live on this planet. Our American Hitler, George Custer, also was responsible for the deaths of thousands of native born American's.  The thing that upsets me the most about this tragedy is the President of the US and his cabinet agreed to the genocide. Who is the real Beast here---- certainly not just George Custer.  AND the US has the tenacity to name a Federal Park after Custer!  

Every century though out recorded history has it's Hitlers.  It's "allowed" by some higher force: freedom of choice or free will, some say.  However, I firmly believe that some humans are born with certain genetic designs which predetermine how the human brain will perform.  (Just as in those who are born mentally retarded, some so severely pron to destruction that they are kept in lock-up. )  These "beings" are here from our own creation/design and serve a purpose for our lessons here on earth.   I may not agree with this purpose.  You may not agree with this purpose. They do exist in our reality.  This past century we have had Osoma Bin Laden and insane Husane.  We had the emperor of Japan who sent thousands to their deaths at Pearl Harbor. We had an American president who Okayed the Atom bomb to be set of in Japan.  We have leaders in Africa (Rwanda and Brundi) who sent millions to their death because they were Tutsi and not Hutu (and the world did NOTHING to stop THAT genocide).  All these other Hitlers just in the past century.  And what lessons have we humans learned?   Apparently, nothing--- as it still continues, today.  What name have you for a mass murderer who lives here in the US??? Isn't he/she just as responsible as any Hitler?  And Hitler was only the Commander, the voice who ordered the tragedy in Germany & Europe.  

We are all responsible ----- in each lifetime ---- to make a difference.  Those "satins" are put here for our lessons.  What have you learned?  What positive changes have you made?  
Love and Light--- Carol Ann

Nanner:

It makes sense that you don't like the below the belt stuff. By the way, we haven't communicated to each other a lot directly, so hello and much love to you. :)


Nanner wrote on Dec 20^th, 2007 at 8:53pm:

Okay recoverer, I understand - it still makes me very very sad when passionate speaking exchanges places with below the belt. I`ll try to behave and practice in even more understanding. Nanner

Justin, Nanner is correct that I do owe you an apologie. Please excuse my reference in regerdes to your name. It was uncalled for. My previous apology to the board stands because it was more related to this exchange not being about Hitler and his actions.
Joe M and TMI...There is a strong possibility that some members of TMI are still connected to the Gov. of the USA. I personally don't believe in nor am I concerned about conspriracy paranoia as related to them but you never know. I guess if someone was found to have abilities beyond what the majority of us have, someone might sell them out. If you could read the minds of everone, without doupt, you would be very valuable to the Gov. I do think TMI is assisting in looking for people who have certan abilities. Yes. I am not so sure that they are doing it for the Gov. I also think that the US Gov. is far more evil than Joe M or TMI. In the limited conversations I have had with Joe M at TMI he has never said that he dosen't still work with the Gov. Only that he now sub-contracts to them. He may well work for someone other than them. Never doupt your guidance. It will rarely let you down. I think he (working) is in some ways.
If my thought that your wish to have your name spelling more like Yeshua was something other than honorable and without an ulterior motive, my apologies for that also. I was under the impression that you were tring to identify yourself as being Yeshua and not just identifying yourself as believing in or in agreement with him. You know, false God syndrome. I am very happy to see that you are not seeing yourself as him in this life, or in past. Right, your not? Right?
As for seeing in others what we are in fact, ourselfs. Right again. I not very tolerant at times and do tend to be a bit of an A. H. when I see something I don't like. Perhaps my ego is the same as yours and thats why the exchanges. I do know that guidance has shaped the exchanges. (Perhaps its that whole red hair thing again.)
The meat thing, well I don't expect you to change your mind and I am not tring to get you or anyone else to change theirs. We have different thoughts and beliefs in regards to what and how both plants and animals feel. My guidance through the All is that plants and animals both are very much alive and have the ability to know just what is going on with them. It is no less of a deal to kill and eat a plant than it is an animal. I also know the value of life sacrifice by both of them. The difference is that you hold one life above the other. In my personal view, that is where some spiritual growth may be necessary to capacitate you to an even higher vibe. My thoughts only. Above and beyond all of that, I still enjoy what you have to say Justin. Your still extremely well versed in many areas. I do enjoy knowing your thoughts and beliefs when you are willing to share them with us. When I ask question of a personal nature I understand you may not be willing to let down this guard you have. No matter. I think we both agree that the time is short to get ready for the long expected and awaited changes.
Don't have doubts about my love for anyone here, including you Justin. Just because we disagree on some things changes nothing. I don't agree with everthing in the Bible for instance, but it dosen't change my love of God.  

Nanner, Sorry for offending your sensitivities.

Recoverer, You are also right in saying that all of us should be allowed to speak our minds. I am also concerned about false Gods, gurus, etc. I am also entitled to have my beliefs about food as is Justin , yourself, or any of us. Just because you believe something does not make it correct or the truth. What I think fits in there also. I was more concerned about the impression given that people who consume meat are on a slower vibrational level than people who consume Veg only. Killing is killing. Meat or Veg. We will truly reach a higher vib. level once we no longer require the consumption of any living thing, plant or animal.
Joe  

 

We would all agree that Hltler was an evil dictator.  But it is easy to confuse the evil impact of one's life with the enormity of one's evil character.   Hitler's "evil" may be mitigated significantly by his own psychopathology.  With the right kind of therapist or spiritual mentor, he might have turned out a very different person.  

During WW2, there were many failed attempts to assassinate Hitler. An assassinated Hitler might have been the worst thing that could happen to the Allied cause, especially if the Wehrmacht were then taken over by more qualified and capable Nazis.  From the invasion of Russia to Hitler's inflexible insistence that the Normandy invasion was a diversion for the real invasion comiing at Calais, Hilter's inept military decisions were a major reason for Allied successes.  Medical experts have attributed some of his absurd decisions to the effects of his drug addiction and his creeping Parkinson's disease and overall dementia.   The Final Solution would have been implemented with ruthless effeciency by Heinrich Himmler and his chronies without Hilter's supervision.  

Also, remember that only one person in the Bible is ever described as "a man after God's own heart."  That person is King David who at one point was both a murderer and an adulterer.  Spiritual stature depends on the quality and direction of one's spiritual journey, not on a catalogue of one's vices and virtues at any one point on the journey.  "Nice" biblical characters who have no significant learning curve are not particularly celebrated.

I object to assessing saintliness or evil on the basis of notoriety or celebrity.  I strongly object to the Catholic canonization process (e. g. recently of Mother Teresa) not because the candidates for sainthood are not deserving, but because of the implicit devaluation of nameless poor mothers who raised spiritual successful children against all odds and at great self-sacrifice.  Our most spiritual examplars are probably anonymous. Egolessness and humility do not seek the limelight.  I am opposed to any practice that obscures this truth.  

Don

An assassinated Hitler might have been the worst thing that could happen to the Allied cause, especially if the Wehrmacht were then taken over by more qualified and capable Nazis. You ain`t whistling Dixie Don, after reading up on this subject, sitting in a celler of the WWII Library in Bonn Germany, where there are documents to be seen that will put socks on a goat. I firmly believe that some of these "men" were way "over qualified" Nazi`s whom would have done (if at all possible) much much worse and would have gone about it completely different.

Thank you Berserk2 Thank you so much for pointing that out, as if my brown bambi like eyes would have not seen these docs myself, I believe that my version might be of different outsome. You are right, it could have been much much worse!
Love you guys for all the love,
Nanner

Joe, I bow to you in respect! Its takes alot of "conscious spirit" to do what you have done and for that I am very proud to get to speak with you here. I am fortunate. I know my words may not mean much, as you do not know me but I wanted you to know that anyway. You re-instated a warm loving smile back onto my face. Whereas I thought of you most of the day, shaking my head in dismay. Thank you for changing that.
Hugs,
Nanner

Hawkeye:

First of all, I have no ill feeling towards you. Regarding the vegetarian issue, I've been one for about 25 years, but I don't feel compelled to tell others they should be vegetarian. Who knows? I might be wrong about my conclusions. Each person has to decide for his or her self. I know a lot of loving people who eat meat. Nevertheless, I believe it is fine if somebody feels strongly about the issue, and speaks up for it.

Nor I you Recoverer.
How fortunate we are to live in places where we have a choice to eat what we please. Others unfortunately may not have that same choice.

Nanner, I know that there are times when I make posts that they rub some people the wrong way. I haven't had much of an opportunity to have a lot of exchange with you up to this point. I hope that changes. I have yet to converse with anyone here who I hold less for what they think. (Well perhaps one who I thought is here collecting souls for his area of the belief systems) I hold all of you with high respect. That includes Justin. I know little of any of the people who all of you speak of here. Little of the religions or beliefs. I have worked with people all of my life. People I tend to know, and can for the most part read easily. Everone here are as far as I can tell are good people. Of all of those here, I may well be one of the weakest of all. My hats off to All of you.    
Joe

This is a very interesting thread.
I have stayed out of it for a couple of reasons.
One I was at work most of the week and very distracted.  This thread really needed my full attention.
Two...I am just plain too tired when I got home to put forth much effort.
Three...some posts were just too damn long to read.  I am lazy.  I like things more in 'Cliff Notes' :D

As for Hitler I look at him as an Actor on a World Stage.
In a production that needed Executive Producers to pull it off.
These Executive Producers are nothing more then the Puppet Masters on this planet.
They have been spoken about with many names. However, we really only see/hear shadows of them.
These Puppet Masters are far more 'Evil' (lack of the perfect term) then Hitler ever could be.

You cannot believe everything you read about 'history' either. Question EVERYthing.
For example Timothy McVey's name was brought up as IF he did those bombings.  Did he? I don't know.
I only read and heard that he did...I never saw him do anything.
Point being, propaganda is rampid. On ALL sides It is so infused within our everyday lives now then how can we separate the Truth from the Lies?

I have no doubts that Hitler did some very bad things.  How did he get into position to do these things?
That didn't just happen.  People didn't just 'vote' him into power. Oh...it 'looked' like that but, I know better.
Certain people wanted HIM in power for a Reason.
Now what would be the 'Reason'?  Hmm....
Money?  Sure why not.  What is money? Money is a tool. A tool for what?
POWER! CONTROL!  

This is a very long running 'Play'.  Longer then anything ever ran on Broadway.
It is still going strong today.  

It is just like Pinky and the Brain use to say...
Pinky: "Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight?"
Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world."

[Old Dood:] "As for Hitler I look at him as an Actor on a World Stage.
In a production that needed Executive Producers to pull it off.
These Executive Producers are nothing more then the Puppet Masters on this planet.
They have been spoken about with many names. However, we really only see/hear shadows of them.  These Puppet Masters are far more 'Evil' (lack of the perfect term) then Hitler ever could be."
_____________

These comments display ignorance of the history of the rise of the Third Reich.  Obviously, you have not read Hitler's early work "Mein Kampf" nor studied the background and impact of the Munich Putsch.  With no evidence you allege "far more evil" Puppet Masters pulling Hitler's strings. Whatever Hitler was and was not, he was a prime mover.  What is your evidence for these Puppet Masters?  Unless you can provide such evidence, your statements are irresponsible.  

[Old Dood:] "You cannot believe everything you read about 'history' either. Question EVERYthing.  For example Timothy McVey's name was brought up as IF he did those bombings.  Did he? I don't know. "
__________________________________
Skepticism can be just as naive as gullibility, especially if one expresses skepticism without having investigated the facts.  Tim McVeigh confessed his guilt multiple times.  He publicly confessed for the first time to authors Michel and Herbeck in their book, "American Terrorist."  Evidentially, it was a slam dunk case.

Don

So Don....you want to lay back and Name Call? Typical!

Sorry...I am not in the mood to have a pissing contest with you.

Ignorant? Sure...I am ignorant about a lot of things. Everyone is.

As for history....dig a little deeper.  You might be surprised at what is the 'man behind the curtain'.

By the way...A lot of people 'confess' a lot of things to make other people go away.
Didn't the CIA just get busted for destroying certain video tapes?

Old Dood,

What you label a "Pissing Contest" is merely an attempt to establish and discuss the facts.  You have no evidence for any of your claims and resent it when someone points this out.  If you can provide no evidence, you are not even intellectually entitled to your opinion!  So I am calling your bluff. Let's see your evidence.  Why not begin by reading up on the  evidence for Tim McVeigh's guilt, including his confessions?  Begin there because you will find no evidence for your absurd "Puppet Masters" of Hitler.  Can you say "critical thinking?"

Don

Don...answer me this....who did you vote for President in the last two elections?

Thought so...

You want evidence: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1710662559138481080

By the way...I did my homework.  Don't expect me to do yours for you.
If you cannot 'see' what is going down then there is no helping you see anything.

You make your own choices in this life. It is obvious that you will only choose what you want to see.

I can't help you there.

ahh what the hell....Seems you are in need of some real help.
Your search function must not be working on your computer.

Link: http://www.geocities.com/pthomas.geo/federal.html
Link: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Link: http://www.tekproject.com/articles/globalelite.html
Link: http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/FED.html
Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

No, Dood, you have not done your homework.  You read an irrelevant piece from JFK and secret societies.  Beware of seeking truth through superficially googled materials at the expense of the relevant historical reading.  You are merely illlustrating my point over and over again.  When will you research the facts?  Do you really imagine Hitler was controlled by Puppet Masters?  Duh!  Identify them by name with evidence.  Are you skeptical of Tim McVeigh's guilt?  Review the evidence, including his confessions, and then lay out your grounds for skepticism.

No, I voted for George Bush neither time!  Do you really imagine that unjustified assumptions like yours about my voting record can substitute for your unwillingness to do the hard work of critical thinking?  You will never discover in this life whether there is an afterlife, unless you are willing to engage the evidence pro and con and then try, as I have repeatedly, to visit afterlife territories by direct experience.  Become a truth seeker, Dood.

Don  

I never said who you voted for...you are assuming.

You proved my point Don...you are a bully and you are not as 'Enlighten' as you 'think' you are.

I have neither the time or the energy to feed your ego Don...

There is so much proof out there that shows that people like Hitler could not do what he did without the financial backing of very wealthy powerful people.

Like I said...you made a choice.  A choice not to see what is all around us.  Not everything on this planet is 'human' or better put 'earth born' that control what is going on.

I have not set my views in stone.  I am still seeking for I will never say while I am on this Earth that I know all Truth or that I am Enlighten.
That would be a lie and that would be all EGO!

You are nothing more then a bully Don...nothing more to me.  

Oh...here is another IGNORANT ADD ON BY IGNORANT DOOD:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

In other words: Puppet Masters!

 Hi Joe, thank you for the apology.   I am beginning to think that i may have really misjudged you and your intentions.  

 Either way, no matter what's going on in this distorted material reflection that many of us label "reality", it's important to remember that we are brothers in Spirit, part and parcel of each other and of Source.    That, as i try to remind myself, is the most important part of living and life.  

 Like Recoverer, i also bear no ill will to you, whatever your feelings or intents towards me.  I do strongly disagree with some of your beliefs, but its not all that personal with me, meaning its not really about you when i talk about animal killing for food.   Personally, i could care less what you do as an individual, but it's the promoting of certain beliefs that i try to counter act.

As far as vegetarians being faster vibrating and more aware than meat eaters, again like Recoverer, i've met or tuned into plenty of meat eaters whom i sensed where pretty loving and intune people (like Bob Monroe, Edgar Cayce, Rosiland McKnight, Bruce Moen, etc), but on average i would say that i've met more vegetarians who were more intune and fast vibrating than most of the meat eaters i've met--especially the ones who tend to eat a lot of the heavier meats like beef and pork.

 Rosiland McKnight's guides explain this stuff pretty well in her book Cosmic Journeys, and personally i think her guides have much more awareness and clear perception of this and other matters than you and i put together.         They don't speak against plant killing and eating, but they do speak against meat eating.   Similar with Cayce's guides.   Too bad Cayce, like so many other channels, didn't have enough self discipline and self honesty to follow their own guides' advice.  Same with Bob Monroe and Rosie's guides advising him.   Me personally, now i try to listen better, there was a time when i didn't.    

 Anyways, this thread is about Hitler i guess, so this stuff doesn't relate to directly.  

 Happy Holidays to you and everyone.   I probably won't be on much for awhile.  

Old Dood:

What you call "a pissing contest" is merely my attempt to extract a reasoned account of the evidence of your possible grounds for Tim McVeigh's innocence and Hitler's alleged Puppet Masters.  You project that crude characterization onto my challenges because evidently that is all you are willing to offer yourself.  For example, you accuse me of name calling when I have called you no names.  Then you have the gall to contradict your supposed values and call me names.  Then you make a snide insinuation by implying that you know how I voted in the past two elections: "Don, answer me this...wbo did you vote for in the past two elections? Thought so."  That formulation implies that you know who I voted for, given the political stance you imagine for me.  When I burst your bubble and denied voting for George Bush either time, you act as if you made no such insinuation!   In the process you display a pettiness beyond belief.  My voting record has nothing to do with the issues under discussion.

In the several posts you have offered in reply to my original honest questions, you have never once addressed the requested evidence for Tim McVeigh's guilt or innocence or offered any evidence that Hitler was on the string of murky Puppet Masters.  You can only cite irrelevant googled articles with no demonstrable relevance to the history of the formation and rise of the Nazi party.  You know nothing about the history of the Mazi power grab (the roles of the Munich Putsch, Ernst Rohm, Hitler's "Mein Kampf"). You know nothing about the evolving relationship between Hilter and his financial backers.  Hitler used terror and the threat of terror to get his own way and seize power.  He arranged for the assassination of some of his most powerful backers, when he perceived their interest in power enhancement.  Your references to JFK's speech on secret societies and Woodrow Wilson's misgivings about the US Federal Reserve are irrelevant to the political situation in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s.  

[Dood:] "I have neither the time nor  the energy to feed your ego, Don."

Do you really believe that it feeds my ego to debate someone like you who doesn't even read relevant historical books on the subjects under discussion (the alleged Puppet Masters of Hilter; the question of whether Tim McVeigh is guilty).  No, I am trying to help you discover the joys of honest and open dialogue.  I come to this site to discuss afterlife issues, not crime and politics.  I am direct and confrontational with you because I believe that you actually might be capable of reasoned discourse.  I don't care what you think on these issues.  I care that you are indifferent to the need for direct investigation of the people involved and the forces that shaped them.  Until you are willing to do the relevant research, please do not respond to any threads I start.  I in turn will ignore your posts.

Don  

Don ...do not tell me where and what to post.
You do not know me or anything about me.
Don't act like you do.

You can push your agenda all you want.
I do not care.  Religious people like yourself always want to be RIGHT.
No matter what the cost.

Like I said...you are nothing but a bully.  
I do not have to prove anything to you.
You went out of your way to attack me straight up.

I have given plenty of evidence on Hitler and how the world works.
YOU made a choice not to accept it...fine.  

Do not go an say to me that I do not know what I am talking about or that I have not done this or that.

Oh by the way...calling you a bully is not name calling. It is a FACT.
I have received enough emails about you and your tactics.

They do not work on me. Enjoy your smugness...your arrogance.
The brick wall that is coming your way will wake you up....hopefully in time.
However, only time will tell...

[Dood:] "You can push your agenda all you want.
I do not care.  Religious people like yourself always want to be RIGHT."
____________________________________________________________

My only agenda is to induce you to offer evidence in your own words (1) for the questionable nature of Tim McVeigh's guilt and (2) for your claim that Hitler was controlled by Puppet Masters far "more evil" than himself. Such nonsense evidently plays well in the New Age ghetto.  So take no solace from the mindless cultists here who, like yourself, see no reason to investigate the relevant historical sources.  It is precisely their atttiude that ensures that sites like this draw little attention from thinking people outside the ghetto.  I regret that.  Astral projection could gain respectability and the status of a serious acedemic discipline if is was infused with new life by an honest and open interdisciplinary inquiry from those who appreciate the need for maximal objectivity.  As I have repeatedly said, my own highly emotional OBEs and retrievals now seem clearly bogus in the light of what I now know by direct experience from the potential of lucid dreaming.  

"I have given plenty of evidence on Hitler...YOU made a choice not to accept it...fine."
______________________________________________________________________
Not accept what?  Please explain in your own words who Hitler's Puppet Masters were and how you know this?  Your articles fail to do so.    

"Oh by the way...calling you a bully is not name calling. It is a FACT."
________________________________________________________

So you are even imcapable of grasping the distinction between a value judgment (calling me a bully) and "a fact."  Oh, do you invite a juicy comeback here!  But I will restrain myself.

Don

Your agenda is no different then other religious zealots I have had to deal with in life.
You speak for 'God' as if you know who God is...
You attack and then say it is dialogue...
Religion does one thing and one thing only very well.  
It teaches fear.  It controls with fear. It sells fear.

I have never responded to any of your posts to my recollection.
I never wanted too. You offer me nothing that I need or want.

However, you took upon yourself to go out of your way to attack me.
You made a choice to do just that...attack.  You know nothing of what is really going on in this world.  You do not want too.

Go enjoy your 'good book' and all it's deceptions/disinformation.  This is what you want.
You want others to follow you in that deception...I been there.  It is lies with just enough 'truth' to fool a lot of people.
I will not be fooled anymore.  I do not need anymore disinformation that religion offers...all based on fear.
 
You call this a New Age Getto...then why are you here?
Agenda?...to spew your BS?  So you can 'Be Right'?  
That is what it is looking like with each and every response to me.
Weak...lame...childish.

So what is next? You gonna run to your 'buddies' and have them defend you?
I know that tactic of yours too...

"You call this a New Age Getto...then why are you here?"

I have been wondering that myself Dood. Just curious.

Personally the New Age theory seems to be the most positive alternative to the possible fate of the Earth and human race. I can't think of a theory that makes sense of a crazy world better than the New Age one.

Alternatives:

1. Earth destroyed, we all die
2. Final judgment such as in Abrahamic religions, most people burn in Hell for eternity or are Annihilated.
3. Aliens come and help us
4. New Age/ Golden Age of peace
5. Acension to 4d world, fear-based people shift to another planet

Which sounds the most fun to you? 3 - 5 could be all together!

Peace,

Pat

[Dood:] "Your agenda is no different then other religious zealots I have had to deal with in life."
_________________________________________________________________________
Wow, you are as ignorant of my "agenda" as you are of Hitler's rise to power and the case against Tim McVeigh.  I have repeated called your bluff and you comically refuse to provide any evidence for your claims.  

"I have never responded to any of your posts...You offer me nothing that I need or want."
__________________________________________________________________________

Once again, you contradict yourself.  You reponded 5 times to my ongoing "True Heavens" thread and even gushed, "This is a fascinating thread."  

However, you took upon yourself to go out of your way "to attack" me.
___________________________________________________________
You transformed a simple request for your evidence into an attack by repeatedly refusing to lay out your case in simple words.  There is nothing personal about a critique that simply probes for the merits of someone's case.  You label my responses an "attack" because you feel threatened and, worse, exposed.

"I do not need anymore disinformation that religion offers...all based on fear."
________________________________________________________________

One of the main reasons why you resist reason is your enslavement to unwarranted assumptions (e. g. your assumption about my presidential voting record).  Obviously, you have no clue about what the Bible teaches about the afterlife or how I am synthesizing these insights with astral exploration and NDEs.   Stay tuned to my True Heavens thread.
 
"So what is next? You gonna run to your 'buddies' and have them defend you?"
_________________________________________________________________
Why would I need defending?  After all these replies, you comically persist in ducking the issues in question and substituting ad hominen attacks.  

Don

Don,

I am curious to see how you synthesize the Bible and astral travel. From my reading, the Bible teaches several different afterlife realms:

Kindgdom of Heaven
Kingdom of God
Gehenna (Gehenna-fire and Hell-fire same thing)
Hades (Translated as Hell)
Tartarus (Translated as Hell)
Outer Darkness
Bottomless Pit (would technically be a tube)

Thats all I can think of.

Pat

Pat,

Start with 3 simple comparisons:
(1) NDEs, astral projection, and the Bible make it clear what life without time is like.
(2) The earliest literary evidence for soul retrievals comes from early Christian sources.
(3) Bruce Moen locates "the Park" (Focus 27) above "the Hollow Heavens."  The Bible locates "Paradise (= "the Park" = Focus 27) in "the 3rd heaven."  This implies two lower heavens.

I will resume my "New Heavens" thread after Christmas vacation and my extensive travels.

Don

Once again Don you get it all wrong about me.  
You do not know me at all.
You are also not any more spiritual then I.
You are not anymore experienced then I.
You are not any better then I.
You are not any smarter then I.
You are not any wiser then I.

The difference between you an I is that I am honest.  With all my faults and I have many I will speak openly and honestly with people.
People know where they stand with me.
I will not candy coat. I will not BS people. I will not force any of my beliefs on to another person.
I plant a seed of thought and let them do with it as they will...or not.
I firmly believe in the sharing of Ideas.  My Ideas are not absolute.  
However, I like to share an Idea so others can add to that Idea in order to come up with a better Idea.  
Yes even you can add your Idea to the fray.

Also if you are going to Quote me then use the Quote Feature here.
Stop taking my words out of context.
That is just what 'Religious People' do.  
Take what ever they want out of the bible for example and make it 'fit' into their dogma and beliefs.

You want to know what I think...how/what I believe?

Right here: http://www.afterlife101.com/research2.html

Old Dude, I believe there are many who are tirelessly working to continue entrapping souls, or beings in the lower spheres such as Monroe's focus 24,25,26. They well may believe that their created heaven ( in fact a hell) is where we should desire to be. Praying endlessly for forgiveness from one god, or even the poltheistic.  Many of these deceptive souls create their own tabernacles and feed on weekness or on others fear in an attempt to fill them. Many who are earthbound start their own churches, or cults to entrap.  When it comes to these people, "Misery loves company". Not all of us here are to be entrapped by the fear mongering of the religious zealots. I, like you, have opted for being free from such hypocrisy. The truely enlightened have no need of controlling or owning others souls. That is not saying that I am, or am even close to being so enlightened.
Even Hitler (or others) may well have created such a place in the belief system territories, for those believing in Naziism. Their church of Naziism and their sanguinary beliefs.
Following the confines of a organised religion or befief territory may only lead to possable entrapment and slow the advancement into finding the truth of God and furthering ones self towards spiritual enlightenment. Of course, not everone is ready for nor may they want to find God or move forward. The choice to do so may be as individualistic as befiefs, themselves.  
Joe

Afterlife 101 is so good there should be a church built around it.  ;D Just kidding!

It covers everything you wanted to know about life and death.

Pat

I took a look at the Afterlife 101 page. Interesting stuff yet I am wondering why the people who were doing the channeling are not willing to say who they are. Makes it all seam a little shady to me.
Joe

hawkeye wrote on Dec 24^th, 2007 at 6:20pm:

I took a look at the Afterlife 101 page. Interesting stuff yet I am wondering why the people who were doing the channeling are not willing to say who they are. Makes it all seam a little shady to me. Joe

Well, in the 101 part you know who is who.
I see no problem with someone not wanting to be bothered/harrased/threatened/etc.
There are enough people out there still today that would cause physical harm to someone for 'saying' those things against 'God'.
Other words not following what ever bible that zealot believes in.
The people that channeled this info might have a family also they are protecting.
We do not know what their reasons are.
I do not get the 'feeling' they are hiding anything or are they being shady from my own perspective.

There is some real good info there. Eye-opening stuff.
It answers for me anyways why people are homosexual for example.
I am sick and tired of people harrasing homosexuals.
It is like they are still 'free game' out there.
I will always stand up for any homosexual's God Given/Universal Rights.
They are just as human and equal as everyone else.
Great neighbors too. :)

I am tired of how certain groups of people attack other groups the same as you Dood. i have been sort of a defender spirit in my mystical journeys, to look for those downtrodden.
it seems in our world, there is a need to find a scapegoat to project guilt onto a certain segment of society. this is what leads to wars.
I am feeling on christmas day and always, a deep desire to see peace manifest upon the entire planet. I will be called a dreamer, but i am with John Lennon, "imagine all the people, living for today, nothing to kill or die for..." you know the song was famous.

I think peace must be born within each person first. then I stand by the 100th monkey theory, where those who come after, just automatically know what to do.

love, alysia

That Afterlife 101 reads like a pretty decent compilation of views whatever the source..

Don - you're at it again - taking a gratuitous cut at traditions or views you personally 'don't get'.

Your agenda seems to be to avoid debate while trying to get your particular message across. If you keep on using this style you basically are shooting yourself in the foot - when you back people into a corner they can't hear what you have to say....

Your right Dude, I can see what you are saying about the possibility of being attacked or having to protect your family because of your beliefs and how others think obout them. Persecution over beliefs.... it just sounds so familiar. If everone could just remove their religious blinders...how much closer we would all be to God.
Joe

I would just like to be a fly on the wall, so to speak, at Hitler's life review and find out if he accomplished his goals in that lifetime. Since, according to some hypotheses, we are each individual the final judge of her/his own life, it would be interesting to know if he learned what he set out to learn. I don't know what to make of the hypotheses that he was a more advanced soul and came here at a fraction of his total conciousness in order to help wake humanity up, but if his goal was to stir things up, I would say, by looking at this thread, that he has succeeded yet again.

Lucy:

Look into your heart and ask yourself if beings who represent love would "plan" for a person to live a lifetime that is as terrible as the liftetime Hitler lived.

My guess is that such a way of thinking comes from some bogus channeled source. Sometimes people become too clever for their own good.



Lucy wrote on Dec 27^th, 2007 at 8:31pm:

I would just like to be a fly on the wall, so to speak, at Hitler's life review and find out if he accomplished his goals in that lifetime. Since, according to some hypotheses, we are each individual the final judge of her/his own life, it would be interesting to know if he learned what he set out to learn. I don't know what to make of the hypotheses that he was a more advanced soul and came here at a fraction of his total conciousness in order to help wake humanity up, but if his goal was to stir things up, I would say, by looking at this thread, that he has succeeded yet again.