A few yaers ago, I started a thread similar to this one.  Since then, I have discovered fresh insights on certain points and a lot of newbies have joined the site.  So I have decided to launch a new version of my old thread.  Wherever possible, I will stress the problem of independent verification and a comparison between Christian and New Age perspectives.  I will delay my initial replies to (1)-(9) until readers has had a chance to contemplate each topic and formulate their own perspectives.  In thie interest of coherent discussion, I ask only that you refrain from commenting on one of the specific topics until the prior topics have been adequately discussed.

(1) The multiplicity of heavens in Cnristian and New Age perspective
(2) The concept of progress in the heavens
(3) The true heavens: conditions for admittance and for soul retrievals
(4) The true heavens: eternal rest homes or future careers?
(5) The purpose of heaven in Christian and New Age perspective
(6) The true heavens as timeless realms: Practical implications
     timeless music" as a case in point
(7) The difference between "lower" or "hollow" heavens and the true Christian heavens
(8) Unearthly Colors in the true heavens
(9) Practical Applications: the heavens as nonspatial realms

Don

Looking forward to it. :)

Are you still working on this? Can we set a time and date.....  :)

Not really, just excited about this!

Don-

Fire away!  I for one applaud your commentary and look forward to it.  A refreshing change from so much of the new age "woo woo" stuff we seem to be inundated with of late.

R

THE MULTIPLICITY OF HEAVENS IN CHRISTIAN AND NEW AGE PERSPECTIVE: PART I

In the Judaism of late antiquity a multiplicity of heavens is widely taken for granted, though estimates vary as to the number of heavens from 3, 5, 7, to 10.  The most verifiable feature of this enumeration is the New Testament's location of Paradise in "the 3rd heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2-3).  An old Persian word, "Paradise" means "park" or "garden" and is the preferred initial destination of the Christian dead (Luke 23:42-43).  This location of Paradise in the structure of the heavens implies 2 lower heavens that are described in detail by contemporary Jewish sources which also locate Paradise in the 3rd heaven.  The biblical role and description of Paradise are strikingly reminiscent of Focus 27 in the Monroe/ Moen model.  The Hollow Heavens in Focus 24-26 "below" Focus 27 seem reminiscent of the two lower heavens in early Judaeo-Christian tradition. As in Bruce Moen's explorations of Max's Hell, the two lower heavens in early Judaeo-Christian tradition include hellish planes that blur the distinction between heavens and hells.  In 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul poetically depicts a hellish heaven in which divisive Christians can "be saved, yet so as through fire."   The clear implication is that this lower plane is a realm for Christians who have made little progress towards PUL.  In the Moen/ Monroe scheme, Focus 23 rather nicely corresponds to early Christian images of Sheol, also known as Hades.

The biblical Paradise also corresponds to "the Summerland" in Robert Bruce's model (AD 476-77),  and to the initial destination of the dead in "the world of spirits" in the Swedenborgian [hereafter ES] model.  ES explains that in the first stage, the newly dead "go to different cities, to gardens and parks, often to gorgeous ones (HH #495)."  For Robert Bruce, though, "the Summerland" is not the preferred initial locale for the newly dead.  That distinction belongs to the extremely bright "Spirit Level" where one initially enounters an amphitheatre similar to a place visited by Monroe.  I suspect that Robert Bruce's Spirit Level is just another aspect of his Summerland.  Ominous in ES's model is the fact that the newly dead enjoy Paradise before the principle of like attracts like becomes operant to the point that many of them will be gradually drawn to a hell.  This disturbs me because ES receives the most impressive verifications.  

I will later provide more information on the comparative structure of the heavens in the Bible and New Age thought from the perspective of its relevance to spiritual progress.

Don

I want Jessica Alba to be in my version of heaven.  Can I request that of God?

Just kidding.  Great stuff as usual, Don.  I have nothing of real substance to add, but please keep it coming.

Many are familiar with the King James version of Jesus' promise in John 14:2: "In my Father's house are many MANSIONS...I go to prepare a place for you."  When we think of mansions, we imagine a very old, large multi-storied house.  In fact, in King James English, "mansion" simply means "dwelling place."  But the underlying Greek (monai) has a more instructive nuance: "way station" or "inn."  Thus, even here Jesus alludes to a multiple heavens or levels of conciousness. The early church father, Origen (225 AD), rightly construed Jesus' saying as a reference to many resting places along the journey towards mystical union with God.  Jesus' promise, "I go to prepare a place for you," tantalizingly implies the existence of other heavenly "places" (planes) for non-Christians.   What did He have in mind?  Another spiritual plane for righteous Israelites from bygone generations? Planes for people from outside the Judaeo-Christian tradition?  Spiritual planes for aliens from other planets and universes?  Jesus' NDE revelations to atheist Howard Storm acknowledge the existence of such planes for "aliens."  It is fascinating to speculate about such heavens.

Don  

Don,

I would agree with the multiplicity of heavens in most religious teachings as well as in new age thought.  ES describes 3 heavens, inner, middle, and outer and talks about societies within these.  These seem strikingly similar to levels of consciousness I’ve become familiar with in some small degree. These heavens or “worlds” all are connected or interpenetrate one another from higher to lower in vibration.  (The influx of the Lord is a perfect description in my opinion.) Each of these “worlds” seems to have a range of frequency that describes the activities/consciousness within it.  Once you are beyond the range of one level’s frequency, you enter into the next world that contains its own range of frequency.  The “influx from the Lord” is perceived differently in each of these as well.  The higher the frequency, the greater or more pronounced the influx, which influences that world in a different way than the one just above or below it, yet to some degree is still felt within it.  My apology if that doesn’t make sense.  This is hard to describe to say the least.  And I can only speculate as to whether or not my experiences of the consciousness of each really could relate to ES descriptions.  Some things described in HH seem like contradictions, but perhaps I do not understand what is being said.  
 
The first (outer) is what could be described as a level of divine order or perfect order. (A place for everything and everything in its place no matter what that may be.)  It is a level of precision, overall patterns and forms for all life.  There is the powerful feeling of great unfolding divine will and purpose within this consciousness.  It is the level of clear light from where the great plan of the universe is continually unfolding.

The second (middle) is the consciousness of divine love, communion and brotherhood.  It is the feeling of PUL, of elation, tremendous joy and bliss that is greatly expanded and encompasses all the beings of the various worlds or heavens.  You mentioned ES talking about a discarnate enjoying paradise before being drawn away to a hell/hollow heaven.  I think one reason for this is directly related to a lack of spiritual nourishment while in the physical.  Various things such as an environment without exposure to spirituality/religious teaching or disillusionment with a religion that caused the person to reject God and religion could cause this lack.  I may explain more about this later as your thread progresses.  Right now I fear I may be getting off track regarding multiplicity of heavens.

The third (inner) is that of divine mind or divine wisdom.  Within this consciousness exists Oneness with God and all that there is and being able to understand that there is perfection within every imperfection.  It is like having a clear, strong and integrated understanding of God or universal mind.  There’s also a deeper level/world/heaven that seems to correspond to this one.  I can only describe that level of consciousness as a complete connection or non-separation with God for all beings that exist there.

This should be an interesting thread.  Thanks for starting it.

Kathy

Don - why do you take "I go to prepare a place for you"as having something to do with planes for non-Christians (or even aliens)?   Also, I have seen many interpretations of the "many mansions"phrase, which as you say, probably just meant "dwelling place" originally (my dictionary says it comes from Latin mansio meaning simply to remain or stay). I'll take your word for it the original Biblical Greek meant something like "inn," but you seem to make a bit of a leap when you say "Thus, even here Jesus alludes to a multiple heavens or levels of conciousness." I find it a bit of a stretch to assume it is necessarily referring to this. It might just mean "there's plenty of space for you all in Heaven". As you say, re different "heavens" I know of only the one specific reference - the Corinthians one about a man caught up in to the 3rd heaven. This may possibly reflect some Gnostic type teaching of Paul's time, I am not sure. It doesn;t seem especially mainstream Christianity to me. Hence it seems to me differnt heavens or planes don;t seem to play a very big part in standard Christianity

There are good points here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_heaven about how Jewish mysticism (I would say medieval rather than ancient) and Islam (founded in 7th C) recognise different levels of Heavens

I've had only two or three occasions in which people I regressed could identify levels of the spirit world.  In this sense, the spirit world is the state of awareness in which the ptient is either able to contact other spirits, or is aware of being a spirit, having died and gone into a different state of existence. I do not believe that the "spirit world" is a place, so much as a condition.

In general the situation in which levels seem important is one in which I suggest that they take their regressed awareness into a part of the spirit world in which they have access to "the place that all knowledge is kept" - which I often call a "Library".  The purpose of this is to have access to the "Cosmic Consciousness" (or Mind of God if you prefer) so that they can gain new information. However, the metaphor of a Library generally allows people to look up their "Book of Life" - a metaphor by which their path through the world is available. Then they can write new goals and values in it etc, which is the essential action that provides the therapy they seek.

One a very few occasions Ihave had people tell me that they are separated from the "nicer part" of the spirit world by a fence or the equivalent. I interpreted this as the gate between Upper and Lower Astral. One person escribed a "waiting room" in which she found herself. She said that there was a bell on the desk, buit nobody came when she banged it. A youngster walked through and walked through a doorway which closed, so she could not follow.

To get through to the other side I generally ask something like, "Are you willing to devote the benefits of your life to the good of all beings everywhere?" The woman in the waiting room thought a moment and said, "Yes," and then a few moments later, "Oh, there's a door in the wall that I hadn't seen before. It just opened up." She walked through it and was immediately in the Upper Astral, where she could get to the Library and resolve her issues.

Most of us who have done any kind of retrieval or therapy work in the spiritual state are aware of the spooks who get stuck in the Mental world - the earthbound ones who haunt places, attach to other people as entities, or who just seem to wander around being miserable. This seems to be a distinctly different modality than our normal material world, but it intersects the material world.

And we are all involved in the physical level at present. That seems sufficiently evident.

I suggest that these are very basic divisions that can be fairly well described by attitude. There is excellent theoretical evidence, as well as the experiences of those who do yoga,  that higher states occur. (Yoga is from Sanskrit "yug" = "to yoke", "to join" or "to unite". Hence any psychic trancework is de facto yoga.) This is based on the levels of rejection of contingencies by which we limit ourselves. Thus, those who attain a greater degree of selflessness, so that they are no longer at odds with anything, seem to have acess to a world in which there is only continuity by which all elements of reaity are connected to all other elements, experienced by us here in the everyday world as sarvastarka samadhi - the samadhi without contradictions. Many yogis (including psychics, meditators, etc who practice the same discipline under different names) experience this state as "moments in heaven".

At the next level there seems only to be existence, non-contingent and undifferentiated, as is experienced in nirvastarka samadhi, the samadhi of empty oneness (which is a poor description, since the actual state can't really be described in everyday terms). This is less often experienced because most people who have no training tend to get caught up in seeking the "heaven" experience again, where they can watch the pretty colors and blinky lights, hear the angels singing, and generally bliss out. The value of training, at least in this respect, is primarily to understand that there is more, and not to get sidetracked.

While these are very pragmatic working levels, familiar to most formal yogis as well as informal practitioners who happen to be doing the same thing (which is why I call them yogis as well). I'd never thought of them as levels of heaven, but that's as good a metaphor as any, I suppose.  I'd be interested in how these experiences fit the more orthodox or classical ideas.

dave

The alleged "geographies" of the spirit planes advocated by various astral adepts are in general hopelessly inconsistent.  But some very specific locales are intriguingly independently verified in various NDEs.  I will cite just 7 and invite you to expand my list.

(1) a path in Paradise banked over the heads of pedestrians with georgeous, highly aromatic,
    garagantuan flowers shaped like tightly arranged Colonial bouquets all along the way:
    two 5-year-olds independently walked down this path during an NDE.  Margaret Sauro later
    painted the scene as best she could.  The painting was reproduced and hung
    in a doctor's office.  Maria Pasterczyk picked out this painting from among the 10 other
    paintings in the doctor's office and claimed she had walked down that same path as a 5-
    year-old during an NDE.  The two women were then introduced to each other and
    compared notes.  Margaret was escorted down the path by a beautiful Roman woman in
    a toga.  Maria was escorted by THE MAN, who assured her, "I will always be with you."  
    So this path seems to be a "locale" in Paradise specifically designed to serve 5-year-olds
    or young children in general.  
(2) foggy regions at the border of spirit planes
(3) a mall in Paradise for reuniting loved ones
(4) spirit hospitals near gardens in Paradise
(5) soul statues in swampy regions for depressing past life reviews: Apparently the swamps
    are a mental projection to mirror confused minds.
(6) sex piles of men trying without success to simulate earth sex with just one woman
(6) the hellacious shredding of soul bodies by mobs in Hells
(7) an amphitheatre or temple structure from which the presence of God radiates more
    brightly than the sun

Note: I have deliberately exlcuded the so-called House of Knowledge containing every important idea in the universe.  I don't consider this genuine because it invites awesome revelations that have to date never been forthcoming.

Don

Some days I wouldn't mind dying it seems like - I'm not really looking forward to the dying process, but at this point I'm not afraid of actual death.  Thinking about these things that Don is writing about makes me want to be there somewhat.

I was feeling this way recently and I had this weird sensation, a spiritual experience but its pretty tough to describe.  I was feeling depressed because I'm frustrated at work, wishing I could just hang out with God, and my wife was sleeping in a bed.  I was given some sort of knowledge somehow - I'm not sure how.  I somehow knew that if I died I would miss my wife a whole lot, and I knew what it would be like to watch her sleep but for me to not be in the physical body, and not be able to interact with her.  I would miss her a great deal, and I snapped out of this experience pretty quick.  I felt grateful for this experience from God - basically letting me feel a bit of what I would be missing out on before I missed out on it.

I know that life is an adventure, and its probably not fair (nor beneficial to me or others) to get off the ride before its over.  I'm sure if I died soon I would have regrets about not being able to do more good with my opportunities / squandering the ones that I've had.  And I also know that I'm luckier than many in life, and I should be grateful for what I've been given.

I'm not assuming that my spiritual destination in the afterlife will be great, I'm just hoping initially its at least pleasant.

Greetings,

Is number 6B ( the hellacious shredding of soul bodies) allowed because we are supposed to shed our soul body by that stage anyway? Or perhaps we did shed it and moved on, but the soul-bodies are dropped into the pit of #6B for 'therapy' for those even lower?

Pardon me please, but #6A just sounds silly. All the others seem to relate to experiences people are having OB/ NDE, but the therapeutic level of the sixes seems out of place, 'deserving' (?) to be lower, much lower.  :P
You're not kidding us, are you Don?  I keep waiting for the next shoe to fall!

Love, Bets

Hi guys

Very interesting thoughts I'm curious what happens if a group of people die at once like in a car or bus accident.  Will they all go together to somewhere? Will they all be standing outside their bodies looking at themselves and then see each other or will each one have their own experience? Also when you die do you meet up with your passed loved ones or do you carry on and not see them again?

One of the things Skip Atwater kept saying over and over in the Remote Viewing Practicum is "RAW DATA." This was typified by a unusually detailed drawing of a target photo which actually was the target (a close up of a chocolate truffle) but "interpreted" ostensibly by the left brain, and transformed in to a mountain, with a little train running around the base of it. The drawing was exact and matched the target photo, but the brain had "filled in" the details, and made it in to a little vignette story.

The very act of finding words to describe the indescribable rather limits it. A foreign friend asked me the other day, "Have you ever seen a cattle cross?" after reading a sign that said CATTLE CROSSING. Observe what your left brain does with that....

Don't we do the same with the word "Heaven?" Make up a little story with puppies and bunnies and kitties and versions of idealized earth experiences.... or some version thereof.

I already can not find words to describe my experience(s), and I suspect this has been true through the ages, even in the age when the Bible was written. Joseph Campbell used to say ithat myth was all just an attempt to explain the unexplainable by men of that age. While it is not a coincidence, I don't think, that so many of these archtypical myths are similar or even identical from age to age and culture to culture, I think it must be because the underlying and transforming experience is similar or even identical, and they are all valid snapshots from different cameras and perspectives.

It is written that Jeshua used to say that Heaven is now, here, and that the Kingdom of Heaven is within. When asked where heaven was he replied, "You ask me is it here or is it there, and I say it is everywhere you look. Heaven is spread before your eyes, but you do not see it."

It would seem to me that there could be as many versions of Heaven as there are eyes to see, and I have "seen" belief system areas where there seems to be only one...

So I am trying to use just the RAW DATA and look amusedly upon my left brain as it tries to make sense of it, match it to a previous personal experience, make it in to a story, or (worst of all) formulates it into "gospel truth." Somehow it is comforting to my ego that no one else seems to know either.

Thomas

Hi Thomas. I'm late in on this, but you strike a tone there that strikes a chord for me - influenced as I am by Buddhist teaching and a personal sense/limited experience that extra normal experience is basically mind made. 'With your minds you make the world'. (world in this case being samsara or the realm of time and space, cause and consequence or whatever)

So as you say there probably are independently verifiable locations, but these probably exist only because there are large numbers of people that share that belief.  But the 'afterlife' so called can it seems be whatever we imagine/believe it to be.

I really really struggle with treatments of these creations (as i said before) as some sort of almost independently existing realm, and with the idea that we should somehow aspire to get out of this life to go there.

Buddhist teaching is very clear that as part of samsara the afterlife realms (actually the bardos) are just as much subject to suffering as the physical. Actually a lot more so because of the malleability of the reality - all we need is to end up for example with the clearer seeing of the afterlife (the ego peels away) seeing the gap between how we lived and how we would have if we were truly loving and we risk creating a hell for ourselves. Or at least having the c**p scared out of us by what is actually a wrathful aspect of mind.

With higher consciousness we can and possibly do progress through other realms of higher or lower vibration than the physical, but Buddhism is again not particularly optimistic about the possibilities. Some like the realm of the Gods are very pleasant, but so lacking challenge that we can't learn in them. Others are so harsh (the hells) that we're in our pain driven to wrongdoing and the creation of more negative karma. These realms get taught as though they are physical realities at lower levels of teaching, but I suspect are again highly malleable.

Even the apparently pleasant environment we may find ourselves in after death seems unless we can maintain a state of selflessness likely to result in nastiness as delusion is stripped away and we come face to face with the wrathful aspects of mind. If at that stage we still have self we risk out of fear being driven into rebirth in highly unpleasant circumstances.

Bottom line in Buddhist terms is that the afterlife realms are just an inevitable part of the cycle of birth and death. That the real game is the raising of consciousness so that self/ego is shed and selflessness/emptiness is achieved. That until this is done and we can rest in the absolute (pure love, undifferentiated universal mind, true nature of mind) that the 'afterlife' realms are just a sideshow and a diversion.

Worse, that getting hung up on the pursuit of them or the powers that enable experience from this life (making pursuit of the powers an objective in itself rather than treating them as just a side effect of raising consciousness) is actually a form of grasping or attachment that makes realisation less likely than was previously the case...

I like Don's remarks. There seem to be as many levels of the heavens as there are people to define them - and these are, as Tgecks  noted, raw data. If we simple condense all these ideas we seem to have a subjectively good direction and a subjectively less good direction, and various ways of differentiating them. My suggestions are no better than anyone else's, but happen to be useful to me because of the type of work I do.

The notion of a "place of all knowledge" or as Cayce put it, "akashic records" or "House of Knowledge" or "Library" etc, seem to me to be simple constructs. We can create such places because we are, ultimately, manifestations of the Creator. That does not presume these creations to be "real" - nor does it mean that they are "unreal". Like the numerous ways of dividing the heavens, these are constructs that are useful in specific individual cases.

Another example is the person who says, "I have a spirit guide." Personally, I have no foggy notion of what this actually might entail, so I accept what I am told. The concept of there being a Cosmic Rule Book to which all guiding spirits adhere strikes me as ludicrous. However, that a great many individuals have "spirit guides" of whatever sort is a self-proclaimed fact which we must accept with the same degree of confidence as when we are told, "I'm hungry," or perhaps, "I meditate, and when I do I see things that are beyond the everyday world."

Along the same lines, I feel that the individual is fully self-defined, both in this world and in the next, and that the miracle of life in the everyday world is that we have agreed to live in a world in which we have so much in common. If we follow this notion backwards we eventually arrive at the initial creative Godhead from which all phenomena emerge, which is the only place at which it all is forced to come into collective agreeement. Thus, in some manner we might, in principle, be able to go to a person, take their ideas as stated, move backwards to God, and by realizing ourselves as God in God's totality, then return to our own perspective as individuals with a proper translation of the other persons true thoughts, feelinmgs and ideas. The principle works fine but the practice is unlikely in the extreme - at least from my viewpoint here and now.

That doesn't mean that we are unable to discuss these things usefully. If we were to assemble everybody's thoughts on the levels of heaven we would get a pretty good idea of the way things look in general. And, since we are all manifestations of God, those projections would be to that degree valid. This suggests that the levels of heaven are a statistical phenomenon, much like the levels of ionization of atoms in the clouds of hydrogen etc in space - and thus we get what looks more like a problem in quantum mechanics than a fixed structure with houses, lamp posts, and endless stairways with angels running up and down them.

Perhaps the issue can be reduced to the question of goals and purposes - why do we care? What do we need this information for? What do we desire to accomplish through it? - And that too, is a question with a statistical distribution of answers.  

dave

Thomas said: It is written that Yeshua used to say that Heaven is now, here, and that the Kingdom of Heaven is within. When asked where heaven was he replied, "You ask me is it here or is it there, and I say it is everywhere you look. Heaven is spread before your eyes, but you do not see it."
____

I agree this is simple to understand the quote above. that what we focus our attention on is what we will see, as attention that is fixated on what Yeshua said above, (as well many others will say this in different words) the attention in the mind is like developing an observer function which is suspended into a state of awareness of nonduality, as Dave put it, a non contradictory state where both sides are seen at once. so turning the attention to "heaven is spread before your eyes, if one were to experiment with this idea, to test it out and make it more than theory, the universal stuff complies with the direction the mind within meditation practice is intent on observing if heaven is perhaps indeed spread out all around you. and lo and behold, the statement becomes true for that one.

another more simple explanation (Kiss) keep it simple silly, I tell myself, do you wish to be happy, or do you wish to be right? usually, to avoid a headache I respond I wish to be happy for it would only be my ego which would want to be right, and it does need correction to right perception now and again.

I have a belief in 7 layered heavens, each one relating to a state of awareness, but I don't see these layers as stacked on top successively rather overlapping and interpenetrating one another as Kathy suggested.
indeed, that may be where the phrase came from "7th Heaven." The 7th heaven is where nirvana of nothingness can be experienced, however, it is necessary if one would stay there, not to have a desire of any kind or another life begins to be planned, as well that may be, as I cannot stay in a place of suspended desire very long and hard to imagine, but I do know about entering the "nothingness." its very restful all in alll.

thanks everybody, great thread.

(2) THE CONCEPT OF PROGRESS IN THE HEAVENS

In the Judaeo-Christian tradition, an unstated assumption has proven detrimental to an open-minded spiritual quest: the assumption that when believers, die, they immediately achieve spiritual perfection, regardless of their level of growth during earth life.  This assumption generates a blind spot to the widespread biblical teaching that God wants to save everyone and will continue to pursue this purpose after our physical demise.  If our final spiritual level is established in this earth life, then a definitive and final postmortem fate seems inevitable.  This presumed finality is often justified by Hebrews 9:27: "It is appointed unto people once to die and after that the judgment."  Consequently, the question of whether one's spiritual level can be altered after "the judgment" (past life review?) is seldom asked in most conservative Christian circles.  The failure to ask this question is reinforced by the mistaken view that the biblical Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") mean "eternal" just as they are normally translated.   In fact, "olam" means "for a long time" and "aionios" means "age-long" or "for an indefinite period."  This insight should open minds to neglected biblical texts that imply release from Hell, proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead, eternally open gates in Heaven, and hymnic visions of denizens of Hell praising God in Heaven.  I will elaborate on these biblical themes in future posts.

To refute the notion of instant postmortem spiritual perfection, just consider John's poetic visionary image of our light bodies in heaven: "The fine linen (= outward appearance of white light) is the righeous deeds of saints (Revelation 19:8)."  This image implies that the quality and intensity of our radiance is determined by the quality of our earthly spirituality.   Conversely, the spiritual bodies of some believers are envisaged as "soiled garments (3:4)." To me, this imagery implies (1) an initial postmortem spiritual condition equivalent to that achieved during earth life and (2) heavenly capabiilties and life conditions that vary dramatically, depending on one's learning curve both during earth life and during one's progress through the heavens.  In my view, this differential heavenly status is already implicit in Jesus' teaching: "With the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you dish out will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:2)."  Jesus assertion might also be translated, "The standards you apply to others will be applied to you."   The application of these principles to me will be a learning tool, a mirror of the nature of my core desires and foibles.  When I am no longer content with what I see in this "mirror," I have the option of working to change my energetic make-up and thereby progress to "higher" planes, perhaps with the assistance of "retrievers."  Progress through mutiple heavens already implies that, at the moment of my death, I am basically the same guy with the same level of spiritual development that I achieved during earth life.  That does not necessarily mean that my mind is not different in significant ways.  There is, for example,  the difficult question of whether and when I will be temporarily cut off from my earth memories for my own good at certain stages.  But in terms of level of growth, I will initially be essentially the same guy.

The heavens are realms in which thoughts can no longer be hidden (Luke 12:2) and communication is telepathic.  Imagine a community of loving spirits who are passionately devoted to each other's bliss and progress and consider it a privilege, not a duty, to serve each other.  This is the essence of a grace-based life.  Then imagine that this community is sprinkled with selfish church gossips bent on promoting their own interests.  These souls give only mental assent to a grace-based Christian belief system.  Common sense teaches that, in a realm where no thoughts can be hidden, such a gossip would neither feel comfortable  nor be wanted in such an altruistic community. Of course, the unselfish saints in such a community would seek out such Christian gossips during retrievals in an effort to help them change their energetic make-up, so that they might fit into their blissful community. 

Don

A NOTE TO BETSON:
Neither postmortem "sex piles" nor "soul shredding"  need have a redemptive or otherwise positive purpose.  I doubt that such dreadful practices occur in the heavens.  I was merely pointing out that there is independent verification of such practices in afterlife territories.  "Soul statues" in swampy astral environments may or may not occur in a heavenly plane.  The boundaries between the "lower" heavens and the "higher" hells may reflect a continum rather than a dramatic shift in consciousness.  "Hell" means a condition of separation from God, but this condition may be subtly incremental and specific to the potential for certail levels of contact with the divine.  

Hi Everyone,

I hope this will be helpful and inspiring --

The subject at hand is discussed in great detail in a whole chapter of Sri Aurobindo's 'Letters on Yoga' - very appropriately entitled "The Planes and the Parts of Being" (Section V) in "Letters on Yoga Vol I", beginning on page 233. (see link below) There may be even more appropriate writings on this topic, and if I manage to find them, I will post links, but for now this seems to be the best I could find in one chunk.
Here is an excerpt from that chapter on pg 252:


Quote:

...If we regard the gradation of worlds or planes as a whole, we see them as a great connected complex movement; the higher precipitate their influences on the lower, the lower react to the higher and develop or manifest in themselves within their own formula something that corresponds to the superior power and its action. The material world has evolved life in obedience to a pressure from the vital plane, mind in obedience to a pressure from the mental plane. It is now trying to evolve supermind in obedience to a pressure from the supramental plane. In more detail, particular forces, movements, powers, beings of a higher world can throw themselves on the lower to establish appropriate and corresponding forms which will connect them with the material domain and, as it were, reproduce or project their action here. And each thing created here has, supporting it, subtler envelopes or forms of itself which make it subsist and connect it with forces acting from above. Man, for instance, has, besides his gross physical body, subtler sheaths or bodies by which he lives behind the veil in direct connection with supraphysical planes of consciousness and can be influenced by their powers, movements and beings. What takes place in life has always behind it pre-existent movements and forms in the occult vital planes; what takes place in mind presupposes pre-existent movements and forms in the occult mental planes. That is an aspect of things which becomes more and more evident, insistent and important, the more we progress in a dynamic yoga.       But all this must not be taken in too rigid and mechanical a sense. It is an immense plastic movement full of the play of possibilities and must be seized by a flexible and subtle tact or sense in the seeing consciousness. It cannot be reduced to a too rigorous logical or mathematical formula. Two or three points must be pressed in order that this plasticity may not be lost to our view....

It seems to me, having familiarized myself somewhat to these writings, and to some extent with this forum, that so many of the phenomena and issues non-physical explorers frequently discuss on this site are very clearly and in depth, presented in the writings of Aurobindo. It should be noted that the 'Letters' are widely considered to be some of his most accessible writings.

Personally, I find Sri Aurobindo to be an authentic teacher of tremendous height, depth, and utility - and yet he and his writings which could be extremely helpful to truth seekers, universe explorers, yogins, etc. seem relatively unknown and under-utilized in our world where many are now craving reliable (and practical) teaching in areas crucial for individual and group progress (a not just curiosity fulfillment). For instance, his "Letters on Yoga", in 3 volumes totalling over 3,000 pages, are excerpts from letters he wrote in answer to his own student's queries on their experiences and problems as seekers. These excerpts (the very specific personal was removed leaving the general) cover a wide range of spiritual subjects which have been organized by topic for ease of access, making it a credible and useful contemporary guide.

Fortunately, the entire 3 volumes of 'Letters' (as well as many other writings) are available on line for free and can be downloaded in html or PDF format, so here I give the link for anyone interested. When you link, you will get the tables of contents (further linkable to the readings themselves) for all 3 volumes. In fact, I wholeheartedly encourage people to peruse the entire tables of contents, as you may find materials on a great many subjects of interest and possible necessity to one's individual quest.

http://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/22-24/index_e.htm  for the subject in this thread, see Vol I, Section V


Hope this is useful.

- u

I should think it is very useful Ultra so thanks. I would like to point out how so much information is available to us in this day and age through the use of the internet, right at our fingertips. Perhaps the only thing missing is the disapline to explore all that is there, due to the physical body reguires movement away from the puter (speaking personally of course) every now and then or the hinges rust.  :)

Cyberspace is creating a speed up in human/spiritual evolvement. we no longer milk cows, we milk the internet.

love, alysia

Hi Tarja-
You asked if people who die together go into spirit together. Direct responses from people in past life regressions have indicated to me that this occurs, but not always. The general feeling among past life folks at the IARRT is that we live with a group of roughly 50 to 100 people with whom we share experiences. I have no data on this. Michael Newton seems to feel that we go through formal classes etc as a group, but he structures his sessions so heavily that this might simply be his opinion imposed on the situation.

I had a man who said that after he died, he haunted the house while waiting for this wife to die. Then the two went off into the light together. I asked if they continued together, but he said, "No, she went to her group and I went to mine."

A young man told of murdering his best friend over a dispute regarding a woman. He was having problems with guilt etc and I suggested that he deal with his feelings and with the victim. Immediately he said, "Oh oh - Here he comes now, and he's bringing the knife." Where they had been evidently was separated before that. After they talked he discovered thathis friend had not been hitting on his girl friend, but simply wanted an introduction to someone else. He apologized, his friend forgave him and left. They did not go off together.

In another case a man reported that he had been a member of a group of thieves who had been pilfering from the local lord to help support their village. They were caught. The lord hung them from a dungeon wall and slowly starved them to death. (nice guy!) Eventually they all three wound up in their own private heaven, where they enjoyed, briefly, the pleasure of having given some of their loot to their village - which they had regarded as a good, holy and just act. Then one by one they left that place and went elsewhere. The inference is that they separated after the rather thin thread that bound them together was exhausted.

Many people report that when they die they go to a place where they are with their past friends and loved ones. In one case a woman reported that they had a really great party to celebrate getting together.

Another man was attached as an entity to a man, saying that he was terrified that his prior companions were lying in wait for him and would kill him. This led the host to feel upset as well. The entity said that he had died in a New York alley when one of his companions strangled him. The companions were dead, but somewhere nearby.  He was terrified of going into the light because he was sure God would hurt him too. I asked if he had friends who had died and were in the light. He said he had, so I told him to ask his friends whether it was a good idea for him to join them. They said it was, and called for him to go into the light, which he then did. One might assume that he was now in a group with prior friends.

Often a person who has a lot of entities attached will have a sort of psychic ecology going on inside, and all the entities feel like members of the same club. They tend to stick together because, as one entity said, it is very boring to be all alone. Often when one of the group leaves to go into the light the rest will follow.

Based on these reports, my feeling is that if there is a connection, then that can indeed keep people together. At the same time, it is not always necessary that people stay in a group, and if they have different spiritual needs, they eventually will separate to attend to them. That's pretty similar to the way we live in the everyday world.

dave  

I agree with Dave from some similar experiences that there are indeed many similarities between life here and life there, even down to being able simulate the ingestion of food, although it may just be a social environment which is being simulated, the food seems real according to our ability to create that.
In my imagination I see myself mingling all over the heavens, a sort of gypsy, but I have heard we do carry on life to life with that a certain number of souls. my group seemed much smaller this time of family. I just can count 8 family members I'm sure I've been with before. Possiblity theres many more haven't met consciously.

We all, most of us have done things we can't be proud of. like some things that have been mentioned here. the first time I came across this idea of the way they can often perceive death on the other side, is listening to Alan Watts tell a story  of two soldiers who were so busy dueling with their swords, they didn't have time to stop and die.

Alan Watts is a philosopher and has no religion to muddy up the view. both of these soldiers ran the swords through each other at the same time. as they floated above their bodies they continued sparring!  :o  they continued sticking each other with the astral counterparts of the swords...noticing by and by, neither one of them had fallen from such blows  ::) at this point Watts begins to laugh at the picture as he tells the story..the fighting passionate men glanced to the ground at the fleshly bodies, looked at each other and began laughing their heads off for they had killed each other and exited the body without further ado and such was the fever hadn't noticed it was over, for the bodies over there do not fall.  :-?

It seems spirit, individually will take their own personal view of their transitions, either quite calmly, or any other way which seems fitting to them. I can assume in this case there was no bad guy or good guy to take sides on, going into battle was the chosen experience to attain and classroom over now..next? I mean next experience for them. I'm sure there was some sort of learning going on but it seems we do enact drama as a death scene here and make our exits in some cases quite efficiently and easily.

This is a very interesting thread. Yes, I guess I am one of the n00bs here but, I am not a total ignorant one. hehe :D

I would like to ask for some definitions though.  What is PUL exactly? What I would like to see here is a sticky with a glossery of terms.
That would help out a lot.

Also I have been myself trying to figure out the ET angle of it all too.  
Hence my thread here: http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1193753273

Some how there is a connection with 'Earth' in this regard in my opinion.  
If I could sit down and talk with people that have traveled out of body as an experienced 'traveler' I would ask them questions if that part of the equation is true or 'how true'.  Meaning details, details, details...:)

I do not mean to get off topic here or highjack this thread in any way.  Please excuse me if anyone thinks I am doing that.
My 'belief' is that some ETs are already in a 4th dimensional state (or higher) to begin with.  With that in mind then experienced out of body travelers could 'see' them and/or communicate with them.  Also they could look deeper into our 3D governments on Earth and see what the real deal is with them.

I have tried sharing this info on other 'Enlightened' forums and I have come to find out a lot of these type forums are as closed minded as any Religious type forum.  It is like no one wants to 'look' toward this as any type of 'truth'.  

Thanks...Once again Great Thread and this forum is one of the better ones that I have found.

-Dood

Hi Ol' Dood-
Let's pause a moment to acknowledge Bruce Moen, from whom this forum has come. I too have found it to be a remarkable intellectual and spiritual environment.

As for PUL - that's what got this forum going. It's also the way that you regard your own self, and by extension, the way that God regards all parts of the universe emanated from Event One, after which we all turn out to be manifestations of Godhead. And in psychology, after Carl Rogers shocked the world by suggesting that we have PUL for our clients (sex with a psych client is a felony in California) the psych world settled on the term "unconditional regard", but the idea is still there.

dave

Old Dood -
 PUL stands for Pure Unconditional Love.  I think Bruce Moen coined the term in his books.  Good books btw.
 

Hi Dood, you were'nt here when Ginny was here, a seasoned traveler to other life forms with details, details, details.  I don't know if theres any archives with Ginny's stuff there, u might try exploring the retrieval archives also. I'm sure she's over there.

once in awhile someone will post here about an encounter of the 3rd kind, but it's usually much briefer than Ginny's. I wish she was back.

I have heard humanity will soon have a huge encounter with aliens, but still holding my breath on it. btw, Bruce has a story of meeting some, they didn't know what PUL was!

so he showed them!  [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif] when I find the right book and chapter I'll send it to you, its very interesting.

Thank you all.  I want to get those books....BUT...Mrs Dood said I can't buy anything right now because of Christmas is coming.

Makes good sense. SO I will ask for these for my presents.

I would write more but, I am at work and must get back to my servitude...:)

Well, I tried a search for Ginny and all it showed me was your post Alysia in this thread (DOH!)

Unless I am doing something wrong.  Forum Searches and ME never got along to well...hehe!

Would have really enjoyed reading her posts...

Hi Dood, I found her in the retrieval archives in 2002. I'll post one of her retrieval experiences, you might like it, then I'll look some more if she has one saved on meeting with ET's.

LaffingRain wrote on Nov 19^th, 2007 at 9:43pm:

Hi Dood, I found her in the retrieval archives in 2002. I'll post one of her retrieval experiences, you might like it, then I'll look some more if she has one saved on meeting with ET's.

Thank you very much. I simply never seem to 'Get' the search features on any forum.
I have been using computers since 1980 but, that doesn't mean I know what I am doing all the time...hehe!

Seriously, I appreciate this....

DUH!  I figured the search out and found Ginny's posts.  

I don't evcen want to say what I was doing wrong...I feel so stoopid. hehe! :D

You are right of course.  She is wonderful.  Like reading a good book!

A Page Turner.  Err...Wheel Mouse roller I mean...hehe!

Don - keep it coming please if you have time.

(3a) The True Heavens: Conditions for Admittance and for Soul Retrieval

Because of the complex issues involved, I will address this topic in a plurality of posts.  It is widely and rightly assumed that the afterlife is governed by some form of the principle that like attracts like.  This principle is problematic because of character complexities.  We are morally and spiritually similar and dissimilar in a variety of ways.   Take the Thief’s Hell allegedly visited by Bruce Moen.  Thieves can of course be reassessed under the umbrella of a variety of other vices and obsessions—e. g. sociopaths, narcissists, drug addicts, and those who are merely acting out their anger over an abused childhood.  Presumably their patterns of vices and virtues affect the kind and level of the hellish planes to which they are attracted.  One wonders about the extent to which their unique hobbies and passions (e. g. gambling; sports; sexual obsessions) also play a significant role in their astral locale.  

In this respect, Jesus’ refinement of the like attracts like principle seems instructive.  For Jesus, what is decisive is the lens through which I view others as a means to serve my desired ends.  The ways in which I am critical of attitudes and conduct will influence the ways in which others will be critical of my attitudes and conduct in my postmortem plane.  If I chronically view others as an unwilling source of possessions I covet, then my co-residents in my hellish plane will view me the same way.  Thus, their attitudes and behavior will function as an educative mirror in which I can glimpse my core desires and spirituality and experience the kind of world that would result from a generalization of my flawed spirituality to others around me.  As Jesus puts it, “The judgments you give are the judgments you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you (Matthew 7:1-2—The New Jerusalem Bible).”  In combination with one or more past life reviews, these Hells can thus serve as excellent schools that sow precious spiritual seeds for eventual efforts at soul retrieval.

In the same way, the power of the Gospel to “save” is not a function of Christian doctrines unless these doctrines become tools for spiritual transformation into a grace-based consciousness.  To be a Christian, I must not serve others out of a sense of duty, which treats them as a burden and allows me to collect applause in my mind for putting up with them. Rather, I must serve them out of a sense of privilege in which I revel in chances to make my gratitude real to God for accepting me just the way I am by His grace.  This attitude can create a truly blissful heaven in which I put the best interests of my heavenly neighbors above my own and vice versa and, paradoxically, I advance my best interests in the process.  

On such issues, the warning of Jesus’ brother is instructive:
“So whatever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free.  For there will be no mercy if you have not been merciful to others.  But if you have been merciful, God’s mercy toward you will win out over His judgment against you…What’s the use of saying you have faith if you don’t prove it by your actions?  That kind of faith can’t save anyone…But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”  Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.  You believe that there is one God.  Good for you!  Even the demons believe that and shudder (James 1:12-14, 18-19)!"

Don

Hi Don I  have always beleived when Jesus speaks of many mansions ,he is talking about the 7 plains of the spirit world.

Love light and God bless    love juditha

Hi Don,

Yes, I agree that the "faith alone," doctrine does not hold water if it is not coupled with action/deeds.  I've also had a problem over the years belieiving in a sinner's redemption at the end of his/her earthly life by  merely reciting a prayer or professing faith, but not having acted a certain way.

I think Justin put it best in another thread when he raised Swedenborg's theory of the outer/inner nature on man, regarding the afterlife.  For those of you who don't know, Swedenborg believed that after death, we are at first centered in our outer nature/thoughts which consists of a hybrid of our earthly memories and the mask we wear in society of dos and don'ts.  But that after a time of reflection, all souls inevitably migrate according to their inner nature.  Kindness, sadism, love of God or distance from him all come out.  At this "inner" stage of reflection, the notion of like attracts like is in full play.  It is hard to imagine any of us post-mortem willingly casting ourselves into a hellish realm, yet for those whose inner nature it is to steal from others, lie,cheat, hurt, maim - they truly prefer to be with others of their kind, and so you find these realms.

It is the spiritual progress of this "inner nature," that we are all honing (I believe) in the earth school.  Our outer nature - the mask we wear here on earth - we change moment to moment as it suits us, but it is not our true deeply rooted inclination.  By living life incarnate, as we progress toward love, as we learn the lessons of the golden rule or Karma (if we do), we hopefully will truly feel that acting lovingly is the only way to be.

It is this spontaneous action or deed that every soul searches for.  Yes, it is probably better to act lovingly because you are supposed to according to law and custom (being good for goodness sake as the childhood song goes).  But we are all sometimes in situations where we do not feel lovingly toward another.  Where we may judge another harshly, perhaps wrongly, and use prejudice/hatred in our thoughts.  This, is part of being human.  So, we strive toward love and understanding, and perfect our spirits in the fires of this earthly existence as best we can.

Rock on, Donald

Matthew

Nice summation Matthew!

To me the ‘faith alone’ concept is the idea that God saves.  There is nothing that we can do to save ourselves.  All comes from God.  And if one is willing to receive this faith from God, then he or she in return lives a life of gratitude for what God has already done for them.  Works/deeds then come from a thankful heart because of the love of God.

I agree.  Rock on, Don!

Love, Kathy

Hi Don-

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the following:

"In combination with one or more past life reviews, these Hells can thus serve as excellent schools that sow precious spiritual seeds for eventual efforts at soul retrieval."

By the plural form of past life reviews, are you suggesting that we live more than one life on earth?  And for whom do these hells serve as schools, those who are in them or those who are doing retrievals?  I don't know, I've read and re-read that sentence to no avail.

Anyway, you say in a different way the same thing I have been saying.  We can spend many hours each day posting messages or we can exchange even a small portion of those hours for the purpose of helping others.  

We can read every new age book that's ever published and become an expert in the field, or we can toss the books and just devote a chunk of our lives doing things far more worthwhile.

I was really struck by a guest on Glenn Beck's tv show last night, Jon Huntsman Sr.  He has devoted his life, and his life's savings, to help people struck by cancer.  Rarely have I seen someone as selfless as Huntsman.  From poverty to a billionaire who offered to sell everything he had to fulfill charitable obligations, his life is a testimony to incredible faith and how it can affect a person.

I know you are a pastor and by definition, you have dismissed the material things in life in order to help others.  I too hope to do more meaningful things in my own life.  

And yeah, Rock On!

R

[Roger:] I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the following:
"In combination with one or more past life reviews, these Hells can thus serve as excellent schools that sow precious spiritual seeds for eventual efforts at soul retrieval."
__________________________________________________________________

My research on NDEs and the consensus of channeling suggests that a comprehensive past life review can often be painful as we relive our most selfish and insensitive moments.  For this reason, we are not compelled to torture ourselves with an unrelenting exposure to all our memories, but can return to our spiritual plane for other preparatory educational experiences until we are ready for the next session of our past life review.  The review's purpose is to facilitate transformation, and so, the timing of its segments can be vital for optimal results.  As I recall, one NDE suggested a preliminary ego-centered past life review, followed by a later more advanced review in which one experiences (1) the emotions of others who have been impacted by our selfish or insensitive actions and (2) the chain reaction effect of our actions on others for better or worse.  

[Roger: ] "And for whom do these hells serve as schools, those who are in them or those who are doing retrievals?"
___________________________

I had the hellbound in mind as "the learners," but you raise an intriguing second possibillity.  The targets of my would-be PUL are the bsst adjudicators of the authenticity and quality of my PUL: true PUL has an impressive impact on its recipients.  Surely retrievals involve much more than correct tactics. PUL is a way of being, not a cosmic soup in which we learn to swim!  Surely retrievals are facilitated by the impression made on the hellbound by the evolved vibration emitted by the very core of the retriever's self.  Jesus taught that true spirituality is better caught than taught.  St. Francis of Assissi said, "Witness to your faith to everyone you meet, and if necessary, used words."  Perhaps one can only refine and upgrade the purity of one's PUL by observing the power and limitations of its impact on the hearts of the hellbound. In that sense, the hellbound can serve as the retriever's teachers and vice versa.  

Don

Dear ALL

Just to add something from my research. I hope it is of interest 8-)


According to Frederick Myers, stage one is the earth dimension. As soon as the earth experience has been thoroughly comprehended – either through reincarnation or through the exchange of experiences with others in other dimensions – the soul may proceed to dimensions beyond the reach of the material dimension.


Stage two is called the Intermediate Realm or Hades. This is the spiritual condition, which is referred to in the ancient religious traditions as "hell." This is the realm where all must go upon experiencing the earth realm. Here, memories of our entire past lives flash before us. Whether or not this experience is "hellish" depends upon the memory of the particular person. If it contains sinister episodes and terrifying experiences, these will drift by the person's vision along with the more joyful happenings.

This did not happen with me... For some reason I was only shown the blessing of my life... believe me when I tell you that I was no saint...


Some persons begin at this stage to feel what is called "the earth pull, the birth pull" and the person may decide to return to stage one, the earth realm. For others, stage two is brief and is followed by entry into a more stable world, which is stage three, the Realm of illusion.

RudI call this the judgment... we decide to turn from the side of perfect love and fall into a body again or stay... I knew that if I looked up into the face of perfect love that I would never return to a body that dies again...

The Realm of Illusion is a dimension where things may be created with the mind and shaped by the direct action of the imagination. Though a person may linger in this stage for undeterminable period of time, an eventual decision must be made. The soul returns either to earth or to progresses to stage four. Before leaving, however, the more enterprising souls may have an opportunity to experience one of the great wonders of this dimension of consciousness – a tour through some section of "The Great Memory." Just as on earth, one may go to a library and see newsreels of important earth events of history, so, in stage three, one may witness any event that occurred from the beginning of human experience.



The Cosmic Memory has recorded everything that has ever happened.



Stage four is the Realm of Color. This dimension is an indescribably lovely existence. Here one must leave behind all rigid intellectual structures and dogmas, be they scientific, religious, or philosophical. An infinite variety of new sounds, colors and feelings are experienced here and souls find a much wider freedom to function with highly energized intellect and spirit. If, in this dimension, the soul becomes free from the earth pull, it is qualified to experience cosmic ranges beyond earth's confines, such as the next dimension.

I imagine this is the place where souls have clothing and look like people or angels and such... I only saw orbs of light...

Stage five is the Realm of Flame. In this dimension, the soul acquires a body of flame, enabling it to tour the stellar universe without being harmed by its temperatures and turbulence and to return with a fuller experience of these cosmic reaches.

This is the white orb we put on our bodies

Stage six is the Realm of Light. Souls in this dimension are matured spirits, having lived through, with conscious comprehension, all the aspects of the created universe. They are capable of living now without form, of existing as white light in the pure thought of the Creator. They have joined the immortals, thus fulfilling their final purpose of the evolution of consciousness.

Yes this is color so strong that it becomes blistering white...

Stage seven is the Realm of Timelessness. In this dimension, souls enter full partnership with God. This dimension is of an advanced spiritual nature, so close to the ultimate essence of creativity that no adequate vocabulary has yet been evolved to describe it, and hence it is difficult to communicate to earth-level beings.

This is where I would long to Return...

I think  Frederick Myers is very close to the reality

Love

Alan

Don,

What is your opinion on some Christian beliefs that we don't
automatically enter a heaven or hell upon death?

The bible speaks of many "asleep" in the earth, not counting
the days, to awaken or be resurrected on judgement day.

Jesus speaks of the work we must do before we die since
night comes when no man can work.

- ck

Chen-Kuang,

In the Old Testament era, Jews notice that dementia and brain damage can inhibit optimal functioning of the mind.  So they believe that body and soul are inseparable and that people cannot survive death without the resurrection of their transformed physical body.  This view encourages the doctrine of "soul sleep," whereby we must await until the end of human history before our bodies can be resurrected and the Last Judgment can occur.  Jesus embraced a new Jewish belief that the human spirit can survive death, fully conscious without the support of a physical body.  Thus, Jesus promises: "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die (John 11:25).  From the cross, Jesus comforts the dying thief on a nearby cross: "Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:42-43)."  "Paradise" is located in the 3rd heaven and means "park."  As the preferred initial location of the righteous dead it is apparently the equivalent of Focus 27 in the Moen-Monroe scheme of afterlife territories.  

Prior to his conversion, St. Paul embraced the traditional Jewish view that body and soul are inseparable, and so believed in our bodily resurrection at the end of the age. This view is still reflected in his earliest epistles (e. g. Thessalonians 4:15-17).  But as Paul receives fresh revelation, he comes to share Jesus' view that we survive fully conscious at death.  And so, in Paul's later epistles, he views death as the occasion of his immediate reunion with Christ:  

"I am torn between the two options: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body (Philippians 1:23-24)."
"We would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

In his later phase, Paul embraces the possibility of OBEs, though he is not sure whether his own astral visit to Paradise was achieved through an OBE or another method that Robert Monroe would call "phasing" (see 2 Corinthians 12:1-8).  

The view that discarnate humans survive fully conscious at death seems to make obsolete the older Jewish view that the Last Judgment must be postponed until the end of the age.  It seems better to think of the Last Judgment in terms of the Past Life Review that is so frequently experienced in NDEs.  

Don

P.S. The saying you asked about can be found in John 9:4-5: "As long as it is day, we must do the work of Him who sent me.  Night is coming when no one can work.  While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."  Jesus uses the term "day" here as a metaphor for His ministry as a lightworker.  "Night" is a metaphor for the temporary "dark" period immediately after His daath and prior to His resurrection--a period during which His disciples are paralyzed with fear and disillusionment.  

Don is quite correct that there was an ancient form of Judaism that did not embrace the concept of an afterlife, but believed in the resurrection of body/spirit in the end of days.  However, there are several interesting Jewish writings and texts which lend credence to the existence of an afterlife, including communication with the deceased, a type of purgatory (Gehinom) and paradise (Gan Eden).  The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that souls are not tortured in gehinom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be twelve months, with extremely rare exception. This is the reason that even when in mourning for near relatives, Jews will not recite mourner's kaddish for longer than an eleven month period. Gehinom is considered a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden ("Garden of Eden").

Certain other texts (Kaballah) actually leave the door open for the concept of an afterlife and even, possibly rebirth (or gilgul - though this is not part of mainstream Jewish thought).

It has always been my contention that for the most part, the paucity of texts related to the afterlife in Judaism was a deliberate attempt to have the Jewish people concentrate on this earthly realm/existence and not embrace hindering belief systems (hollow heavens).  By concentrating on how to be a good, loving person, and the notion of living a righteous or holy life on earth, no expectations are set up for the life to come, and thus the trip directly to a paradise (Focus 27), would be easier.

Matthew

I am now ready to continue this admittedly disjointed thread.  Readers can follow the development of my case by reading replies 4, 6, 10, 18, 33, 38, 41.  I thought readers might be interested in an article reprinted below that I just wrote for the local newspaper.  I have posted both NDEs before, but newbies might not have read my earlier posts.  The NDE of Albert Baldeo's Dad is uniquely powerful evidence for the reality of NDEs.  Phyllis's 2 NDEs pick up theme in reply #18 on "The Concept of Progress in Heaven."  Clearly, Phyllis's problematic relationship with her deceased Mom is inhibiting the Mom's progress in Paradise:

"Are you interested in forming a group to discuss the relevance of modern paranormal experiences to biblical teaching?  Let me know. This article describes two of the many astonishing NDEs that Christians have shared with me.

Albert is probably the most respected retired pastor in Kelowna, BC.  A few years ago, he rushed to his Dad’s deathbed in a local nursing home.  Just before dying, his Dad sat up, gazed intently in the distance, and shouted, “Hurry up, brother, hurry up!”   Unknown to Albert, his Dad’s brother lay dying simultaneously in another nursing home 10 miles away.  Just before dying, this brother became entranced and urgently exclaimed, “Wait for me, brother!  Wait for me.”  Family witnesses on both scenes later verified that both brothers died at the same time!  As they detached from their bodies, they were apparently still able to use their vocal cords to speak to each other in the spirit realm.  

Phyllis is a physician specializing in medical research.  Injuries from a near-fatal auto accident triggered an NDE.  She found herself in Paradise in a “mall that wasn’t really a mall; it was a mall of white light.”  An orchestra serenaded her with unearthly music as she was escorted to several tables for an encounter with her late mother.  It was not a pleasant encounter.  Her Mom chided her for detaching from her emotions and refusing to come to terms with her death: “Your reluctance to grieve is holding back my progress here!”  A sulking Phyllis stoically returned to her body and eventually recovered from her injuries.

A year later, Phyllis was back in the hospital for surgery for a life-threatening illness.  Her deteriorating condition plunged her into a second NDE.  She was transported to the same “mall of white light,” entertained by orchestral music, and brought to her now familiar seat at the table opposite her mother.  “Why won’t you listen to me?  You still refuse to grieve.  Don’t you care about my progress over here?”  Her Mom then pointed down to the table: “You have to make this table vanish.”  This curious remark treated the table as a thought form symbolizing an unhealthy connection between mother and daughter.  

Phyllis offered no excuses and meekly tried to escape: “I think I’ll go back to my body now.”  Her Mom snapped, “No, you’re not ready to go back yet.  You need to go with these two gentlemen.”  Two white-robed men (angels?) escorted her to “an elevator that wasn’t really an elevator; it was an elevator of white light.”  She was taken to some sort of spirit hospital in Paradise and experienced a procedure that she tried in vain to understand.  She was then returned to her hospital bed on earth.  Phyllis had been completely cured and no longer needed her surgery!"

Don

Don  Jesus was speaking to humble uneducated people when he said "In my fathers house there are many mansions' Like the rest of scripture this statement had a multiplicity of meaning that would take one deep  into other realms, dimension's both heavenly and heavenly.

For instant the mansion was a planet, galaxy, universe , alternate universe or into the countless domains of the spiritual realities. Of course Jesus put it simply and did not explain it,just giving the concept of some mysterious greater realities out there. He was not referring to any specific "place' His fathers  house is the totality of all existence and as the Father/ God is Creator he has not ceased to create and physical, spiritual domains are constantly being created by this colossal infinite mind, Some destruct , heat death of physical universes by relentless progress of entropy and other spiritual eternal existing in different level of darkness and light forever

alan

Members of my church have experienced many miraculous healings and paranormal encounters.  3 of their paranormal experiences seem particularly relevant to the capacity of loved ones in Heaven to help us.  In my previous posting of Leah’s rescue, someone asked me how she knew that the snow did not obliterate her car’s tracks.  I have raised this question with Leah and my summary of her experience incorporates her reply.  
 
(1) In a snowstorm a couple of hours from home, Leah’s car slipped on an ice patch and slid into a ditch.  She and her passenger were trapped in an unpopulated wilderness area in northeastern Washington state.  Suddenly a van with a tow hook-up appeared out of nowhere and the driver cheerfully pulled Leah’s car out of the ditch.   The driver then abruptly drove off.  His van left no tracks.  This shocked Leah and her friend because the tracks of her own car were clearly visible on the road!  One of my angel books recounts almost the same experience during a Chicago blizzard.  

(2) Mary Ellen was awakened from a deep sleep by the caress of a hand on her cheek.  The touch shocked her into immediate waking alertness.  Before her deceased sister Sally, shimmering brightly in the darkness.  The two sisters reminisced and reaffirmed their love for one another.  Sally assured Mary Ellen that she was thoroughly enjoying her new life in Heaven.  Then she vanished.  

(3) During a recent visit with Glenda, she shared with me the pattern of her ADC contacts from her late husband Glen.  During a period of depression, Glenda would be cooking dinner or performing household chores when suddenly her attention was mysteriously directed to her kitchen clock.  The time would be the same number in triplicate (e. g. 2:22; 4:44; 5:55).  Glenda would then become suddenly aware of Glen’s reassuring presence and experience a deep peace.  She has experienced this pattern several times.   I recall someone else experiencing an ADC through the same pattern.

Don

I will alter my preposted agenda a bit and address the question of the sense in which the heavens might be realms beyond space and time.  After the current post, I will create a post about one of the most exciting NDE insights I have encountered in recent years.  That NDE dramatically illustrates what it might mean to live in a timeless realm. But first I will repost part of a post from my Emanuel Swedenborg [ES} thread that illustrates what it might mean to live in a nonspatial realm:

THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN SPACE OR DISTANCE AND PSYCHOLOGICAL REALITIES

ES learns that there is no space in heaven.  What corresponds to distance are the feelings we have for each other.  To quote ES's "Heaven and Hell:"  

"People who are nearby are the ones in a similar state and the ones who are far away are in dissimilar states.  This is why space in heaven is nothing but the outward states that correspond to the inner ones.  This is the only reason why the heavens are differentiated from each other; as are the communities in each heaven and the individuals in each community. It is also why the hells are completely separate from the heavens.  They are in an opposite state."

"This is also why in the spiritual world one individual is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired.  This is because one person sees another in thought in this way and identifies with that individual's state.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance.  Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is in their town, their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, tbey go there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened depending on their desire, even though it is the same path.  We can illustrate this by our own thoughts. . .for whatever we focus on intently in our thought is seemingly present (HH #193-96)."

This psychological equivalence to earthly spacial relationships among heavenly communities raises interesting questions.   Most of us have multi-faceted loves and tastes.  Assume for the sake of argument that I wind up in heaven.  I enjoy the company of men who make me laugh, men who love sports, and men who stimuate me intellectually.  I enjoy the company of women who have the gift of empathy, women who charm me, and women who balance me because they are very different from me, etc.    Let us assume that people of each type enjoy my company equally and are equally evolved in their spirituality.  How will the "geography" of these personality types be worked out?  What combination of strengths, interests, and quirks would bring my "type" together into a heavenly community?  Would I be with comedians who make me laugh, with men who stimulate me intellectually, with women who charm me, but are very different from me, etc.?  How can love be quantified?  Does God have some hierarchy of values that elevates some loving personality types to a higher level than others?  If so, what are they?  Perhaps, it is simply a matter of the purity and frequency of a soul's vibration.  So many questions, so few answers!

Don    

Don-

This is off your topic, but I figured this way you would be sure to see it.

Anyway, sounds like Howard Storm is going to be on tv Sunday, 9pm on FNC.  The tease just said a person who died and experienced hell, so I presume it's HS.

R

Quote:

Members of my church have experienced many miraculous healings and paranormal encounters.  3 of their paranormal experiences seem particularly relevant to the capacity of loved ones in Heaven to help us.  In my previous posting of Leah’s rescue, someone asked me how she knew that the snow did not obliterate her car’s tracks.  I have raised this question with Leah and my summary of her experience incorporates her reply

Don what is the name of your church, is it Christian, or Christian mysterism of some sort

alan

This thread seems Christian in nature; shouldn't it be posted in the "Religions & their beliefs" forum and not in the Afterlife Knowledge forum?

To post this topic in this forum implies that our Afterlife is  predominately Christian in it's nature.

Their are many different beliefs about the nature of Reality.

The Afterlife Knowledge forum seems more a place of questions and exploration than any specific religious belief.

Love to us all, Tim

Quote:

This thread seems Christian in nature; shouldn't it be posted in the "Religions & their beliefs" forum and not in the Afterlife Knowledge forum? To post this topic in this forum implies that our Afterlife is  predominately Christian in it's nature.  Their are many different beliefs about the nature of Reality. The Afterlife Knowledge forum seems more a place of questions and exploration than any specific religious belief. Love to us all, Tim

Tim, "christianity, catholicism, Judism even Islam etc." also teaches of an afterlife - so I do believe that when speaking in regards to any "cult  or religion -" that it shouldn`t  stay in the discussion forum for "afterlife". What exactly do "you" designate as qualifing for the discussion forum "Afterlife"? Many topics spoken here are merely a "booster" for a discussion which then develope into a fill blown topic when finding enough readers and reporters.

You going thru the topics and flagging them as inappropriate for the section, I find is not so cool man.

Bruce hasnt made 500 singular "discussion" sections, for
"Realities"
"God and Religions"
"purple men on the moon"
"the athiest section"
"the section for inbetween believers"...
"section for anger and cut downs"....
etc. etc. I think you get the point. ;)

As mentioned before to your other comment, theres static sections within this board, meaning that the links there are from outside of the board, just so people can quickly reference what they want to read instead of having to scroll thru 15 pages of possible biased and confusing comments, those links are not from Bruce - but he tolerates the placement out of divine fairness towards "every perspective"- then theres an Off topic section for discussion and several other designated areas for discussional purpose, such as dream sharing, or retrievals, his books and tapes etc..  

Again - each and every one of us, has to choice of free will, to just click to another subject of interest if the one just read is not appealing or applying to oneself.

I find it great that you state : To post this topic in this forum implies that our Afterlife is  predominately Christian in it's nature. Whats important is that "you and whomever" learn to "discuss" exactly that issue of tolerance. You saying "it doesnt belong infront of my eyes because I dont believe in it" and the other person saying "his perspective". I find thats the real issue here, because you keep bringing it up in various topics ergo: "learning unconditional love for another" is the striving issue..

The "afterlife topics" are not simply "black and white", there are many shades of different colors and vibrations, some of them also being "christianity, isalm, athiest, catholic and Buddism, or Hindu etc". Just as in one topic we had a heated debate about Hilter - it changed its colors within minuites of time from "history lesson, to afterlife possibilities, to religional aspects back to history lesson".  ;)

I repeat: the section "Religions & their beliefs" Informational Links was not designated as a discussion forum by Bruce, so please stop sending people there to "discuss". For if people start discussing there then the simple overview of informational links become "lost" amoungst the comments and thats not the purpose of "informational" links.

Not to mention that Dons Titel of the thread is "Realms Beyond Space and Time" which indicates.

Hugs,
Nanner

EXPERIENCING PARADISE AS A TIMELESS REALM:

John the seer of the Book of Revelation is transported to Heaven and experiences the roaring of a large waterfall.  But then what he hears instead is orchestral music:  “I heard a sound from heaven like the roaring of A GREAT WATERFALL…It was like the sound of many harpists playing together (14:2-3).”  The limited number of musical instruments in the first century forces John to identify the instruments as harps.  Independent verification of this experience is provided by Betty Eadie’s NDE in which she listens to a waterfall in Paradise and then hears the roaring sound turn into beautiful music.

Both John and Betty Eadie experience the waters of Paradise as fully alive:
[Betty:] “A beautiful river ran through the garden…The river was fed by a large cascading waterfall of…water that dazzled with clarity and life.  EACH DROP FROM THE WATERFALL HAD ITS OWN INTELLIGENCE AND PURPOSE.”

[John:] “He [Christ] will lead them to springs of LIVING WATER (7:17).”  “The angel showed me a pure river with THE WATER OF LIFE flowing from the throne of God…down the center of the main street (22:1-2).”

During their NDEs, both Betty Eadie and Don Piper experience both individual melodies from “the outdoors” in Paradise and the overall blended harmonies of the totality:

[Eadie:] “A melody of majestic beauty carried from THE WATERFALL and filled the garden, eventually merging with other melodies…The music came from the water itself, FROM ITS INTELLIGENCE, and each drop produced its own tone and melody which mingled and interacted with every other sound and strain around it.  The water was praising God for its life and joy.”

[Piper:] “The music was the most beautiful and pleasant sound I’ve ever heard…I didn’t just hear the music.  It seemed as if I were part of the music—and it played in and through my body…I couldn’t calculate the number of songs—perhaps thousands—offered up simultaneously, and yet, there was no chaos, because I had the capacity to hear each one and discern the lyrics and melody.  I would have expected the most memorable experience to be something I had seen or the physical embrace of a loved one.  Yet above everything else, I cherish those sounds (29-30, 32).”

Don Piper’s description and reaction provide perhaps the most impressive NDE snapshot of Paradise I’ve ever read.  Being in a timeless realm, souls can simultaneously tune in to countless individual melodies and the overall orchestral harmony.

Don

Cool, Don. Beam me up.

love, blink :)

Don,

As I considered each of your questions, I began to think about healthy/unhealthy relationships and how these may give us clues to what attributes might draw us into a particular heavenly community and into relationships with other beings. The questions of a hierarchy of values, and also people with differences attracting in order to bring about balance seem relevant to the “state” ES indicates as facilitating movement from one locale/relationship to another.

To me the spiritual sense of the word balance means to “bring into harmony”. I do not subscribe to new age rhetoric that states one must have equalized amounts of active/passive negative/positive energies/aspects of self-expression in order to be “balanced” in relationships. You can correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that Jesus’ actions and emotional responses indicated he was fully human, and not that he was teaching people to balance these energies in order to progress toward spiritual growth.

I think ES talks about two states of love, one that draws beings toward God, and the other draws beings away from God, and presumably each other, which he describes as selfishness. The word selfishness is another one of my vocabulary pet peeves because too often the meaning obscures what is needed for true healing. For example the only one we can heal is our self and to do this we must gain self-understanding by focusing on the self. To the degree that we are able to love and understand our self, it is to that same degree that we love and understand others. I believe this includes our love for God so perhaps that is relevant to answering the question of why there are so many societies/communities within the heavens.

The more I think about it the more I wonder if the communities and relationships we have in heaven are much different from those we see here in the physical. Take boundaries for example. We can clearly and easily understand physical boundaries such as my house and the neighbor’s house or the “outer”. What is not always easily seen are the boundaries that exist in the psyche “inner” that govern our desires and actions “our love” as ES would say? The boundaries of heavenly communities could be directly related to the degrees of boundaries we set up between God, others and our self.

In our relationships everything is relative and connected. Nothing is isolated or done in isolation. Not even our thoughts are isolated because we are holographically connected to everything including all events. Everything we think, feel and do is in relationship to each other and when we become clearer in our own self-awareness we can begin to apply what we’ve learned in our relationships. Perhaps this is at least one of the means by which we progress spiritually not only here on earth, but also in the heavenly realms. Or in other words we go to the heavenly community in which we feel most comfortable according to the patterns developed and the boundaries that exist within the psyche.

I’m out of time and rambling anyway so I’ll stop here. You ask very thought provoking questions. Thanks also for posting the NDEs. They have a lot of meaning to me personally.

Kathy

Kathy-

One of the things I remember from Ruth Montgomery's books is the phrase "thoughts are things."

The admonition was given that we really have to guard our thoughts because they, like actions, have consequences.

This is a really challenging thing, because it's something we continuously have to do.  

Anyone who lives in a big city probably thinks all sorts of harmful things when someone cuts us off in traffic.  The list is endless.

Requires constant self-censorship, something that most of us simply cannot do.

But I guess we can at least try.  And the more we try, the more it may become more or less automatic.

R

It was the overly christian slant of this specific forum that was the reason I left the last time. I'm just wondering if y'all have any desire to welcome people that don't want to talk about specific religious belief. Sure, you can say "ignore the threads' if you don't want to respond.

But why have THIS thread here... a lecture about christianity?

Shouldn't this be a forum for people with heartfelt questions about our afterlife?

Not for christian lectures and polls?

Tim:

Perhaps you believe you're being fair minded, but perhaps you're showing your personal prejudices. Perhaps if you cleared up your distaste for Christianity, you wouldn't feel so offended. When I did so, some heart chakra blocks cleared. Sometimes we become defensive, about that in which we are unclear about.


wrote on Feb 20^th, 2008 at 12:41am:

It was the overly christian slant of this specific forum that was the reason I left the last time. I'm just wondering if y'all have any desire to welcome people that don't want to talk about specific religious belief. Sure, you can say "ignore the threads' if you don't want to respond. But why have THIS thread here... a lecture about christianity? Shouldn't this be a forum for people with heartfelt questions about our afterlife? Not for christian lectures and polls?

NEW COLORS AND COLOR HARMONIES:
ANOTHER ASPECT OF VISITS TO HEAVEN NOT EASILY DISMISSED AS SHEER IMAGINATION:

John the seer agrees with NDEers that Paradise lacks a sun; rather, the light of an intelligent presence replaces the sun and makes Nature shine all the more brilliantly.  In John's words,  
"The city had no need of a sun...For the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb [Jesus] is its light (Revelation 21:23)."  

Note how these 2 NDEs independently corroborate each other's insights:
[Betty Eadie's NDE:] Light in the spirit world doesn't reflect off anything.  It comes from within [the garden] and appears to be a living essence.  A MILLION, A BILLION COLORS ARE POSSIBLE.  It is obvious that each part of the plant...is made up of its own intelligence."

[Don Piper's NDE:] "I walked on the grass for a time.  It was crisp and cool and brilliantly green, and it felt alive under my feet.  But what filled me with awe in the garden more than anything else were the intense colors.  We have nothing like them...I saw colors I would never have believed existed."

In Revelation 21:19-20 John describes the colors of the "foundation" of heaven in terms of 12 rare gems.  Read a distinguished artist's observations  at his studio with an open Bible in front of him, while he was arranging squares of colored glass that mimicked these gems:

"I made a singular discovery.  These are the precious stones in the foundation of the New Jerusalem, and when placed in the order prescribed in the vision, they form a perfect  harmony of color.  Were a convention of artists called to produce a perfect color scheme, they could not improve upon it."

Don

Don

Something else that strikes me is Betty Eadie’s comment: “It is obvious that each part of the plant...is made up of its own intelligence."

I’ve also thought of this as everything having it’s own intention/intelligence to be whatever it is to be. For example a broccoli seed has built into it the power/intention to become a broccoli plant and not a cabbage for example. On earth the plants go through a maturation process cycling from seedling to maturity and finally to death. I suppose there wouldn’t be a need for the maturation process of plants in the heavens, but I wonder if there is one?

Kathy

CONTROVERIAL SPECULATIONS SPARKED BY A HEAVEN AS A REALM BEYOND THE TIME AND SPACE WITH WHICH WE ARE FAMILIAR:

The notion of a "soul disk" is not only false; it is incoherent and therefore meaningless.  Both ES and classical channeling experience the phenomena of a group soul, but recognize it as several distinct souls bound together by the principle of like attracts like, not as one over-soul attracting reincarnational lives or combining soul fragments. In my view the "soul disk" notion is a New Age preconception imposed on an misunderstood astral experience.  

A few years ago, Ginny posted her resolve to explore life in the soul disk.  I waited in vain for her reports.  Literally conceived, the very notion of a soul disk sound ghastly; it sounds like multiple selves spliced together into a suffocating union that prevents movement, dialogue, and personal growth.  In other words, the notion seems incoherent.  The attempt to evade this incoherence bu postulating soul fragments having friendly conversations with each other begs the question of whether one oversoul needs to be postulated.    

So what elusive truth leads to this misconception?  A failure to take seriously the fact that the heavens are realms with no space!  No space separates distinct souls.  When the astral explorer lacks a targeted focus, a virtual kaleidascope of faces can be superimposed on each other until unknown principles bring the explorer to a specific contact.  Discarnate spirits routinely allow guests to experience a mind-meld that permits them to experience a slice of reality from that spirit's perspective. Conversely, discarnate spirits can mind-meld with us without our knowledge.  This meld creates the illusion that we are experiencing past lives when in fact we are experiencing the memories of the spirit merging with ours unrecognized.  

ES once thought such experiences proved reincarnation.  But once ES ascended to higher planes the basis of this misperception was demonstrated to him.  Those spirits descended with ES to lower BST planes "stuck" in a reincarnational belief system, but predictably, the denizens of those planes were not open to having their error exposed through a demonstration.      

Also incoherent is the notion of heavens in timeless realms.  We cannot conceive of realms in which events are not experienced in sequence.  If there is a sequence, then by definition there is a form of time, though perhaps a form that progresses at a different rate than normal earth consciousness.  So we must speak of a different type of time rather than timelessness.  

I can detect 3 possible hints about how this new type of time might affect experience.  (1) NDErs often feel like they are been "away" for hours, when in fact they have only been "gone" for a few minutes.  (2) ES finds that astral time seems to flow slower if one tries to visit a reluctant target down a particular route and faster if the target is open and eager for the contact traveling the same route.   (3) NDErs can experience not only the music and harmonies emanating from the object on which they are focusing, but also the music from nearby plants.  NDErs can hear both the total integrated harmony and its component melodies experienced in isolation.  Clearly, some sort of time makes this sequential musical experience possible, but time of a totally different type than earth time.

Don

Excellent thread. My 5 cents worth. When I leave my physical body, I hope to arrive in F-27, there to study, learn, explore, help etc, until it's all done there. Afterwards, I hope to ascend to a true higher heaven. I hope I get what I wish for. Sincerely. Carl and Family

Don, I don’t know if the concept of a soul disk or group soul for that matter is either true or false. Both could be descriptions of non-physical realm experiences that are simply interpreted as best one can in ELS terms even if misguided, as you mentioned.

I don’t know as though I could explain the concept any better, but the way I understand this is that the ‘total being’ of which I am a part of or a “consciousness stream” of is always experiencing non-physical reality even while I, my physical consciousness self is living a life here in ELS. There is no true separation between me as an “earth being” and me as an aspect of my “total being” except my ELS consciousness is not fully aware of my total being that exists in non-physical reality. When I die my ELS consciousness simply fades away and my ELS experiences become like a movie my total being watched and learned from. The problem with most interpretations is the concept/belief of us being separated from our total being. We are not.

In my view if reincarnation does occur, it would be a “total being” sending out a stream of it’s consciousness to experience ELS or any other system available to it and the results of that “lifetime” would simply be like a movie total self watched. Total self would not be a bunch of individuals that make up total self’s substance/essence/consciousness. The persons known as Don or Kathy are each their individualized total self with a portion of their consciousness constrained to this physical reality for a period of ELS time. When death occurs, the movie is over and Don or Kathy’s ELS consciousness fades into their individualized total being consciousnesses. (Each to his/her own.) Sometimes help is needed with the “integration” process, but eventually that is accomplished.

Non-physical reality is not much different than physical reality. The main difference is there are less confining laws in non-physical reality. Non-physical reality actually only appears non-physical to ELS consciousness beings. After we die and sometimes when we explore that realm we do not perceive it as being non-physical at all. In fact it appears even more real than physical reality. Consciousness wise, the beings that inhabit the non-physical are not necessarily any different than the beings here in ELS. There are all types, just as many and more than in ELS. The physical reality evolves out of the non-physical reality and our total being’s non-physical experience is continuous.

If I remember correctly, ES talks about beings living in societies. Earlier in this thread you asked about what qualities beings would have that would attract them to the same heavenly community. I now think the answer is the quality of the consciousness of the being. “Quality of consciousness” means for the most part, the same as it means here (ELS) except it is experienced differently in non-physical reality. Our purpose is to grow spiritually which is to BE love. Non-physical beings that have a high quality consciousness radiate love. Communication is by telepathy, but mostly it is by feeling. When I say feeling I mean state of being rather than emotions, which come and go depending on stimulus. So if you and I and a bunch of others radiate the same “type” of love consciousness from our “total being’ we could all exist within the same community, each of us as our individualized ‘total being’ interacting similar to how people interact in ELS, with some differences of course because of differing laws/rules, etc. (Anyone for a game of chess?  :D )

Yes, I think you are correct there is no space. That is an illusion. However, as you say, time does exist in non-physical reality, but on a different frequency than what we, as ELS beings are aware of. The beginning of time began when primordial consciousness first noticed a change from one state to another, a before and after state of being. I think the concept that time is simultaneous is incorrect because physical beings exploring the non-physical mistake the higher frequency as being simultaneous. It’s a lot “faster” but not simultaneous.

Good to see this thread active again.

Kathy

Greetings,

Kathy said :" I think the concept that time is
simultaneous is  incorrect   because physical beings
exploring the non-physical mistake the higher frequency
as being simultaneous. It’s a lot “faster” but
not simultaneous." (emphasis added)

What if time is a sort of mark of consciousness? That way people who have a shared experience will be able to deal with that experience 'in their own time.'
 Some will deny the experience ('shock) until much later when they are finally 'ready, then they relive the experience again;
 Some will 'loop' time/ the experience, reliving it again and again to try to get the meaning out of it;
 Some will distort and embroider the experience and so warp and extend time;
Etc.
Perhaps only a few are able to move through the experience, release it, and be ready for the next event.

It seems we are all time- travelers, even on C1  !  ;)

Bets

Quote:

What if time is a sort of mark of consciousness? That way people who have a shared experience will be able to deal with that experience 'in their own time.

I think you've got it Bets.

Time, like individualization and freewill are all intrinsic to consciousness. We all have plenty of time to evolve (or devolve) our consciousness. We are totally free to choose whether or not we intend love or fear as motivation for our actions.

Kathy  ;)

Christianity only speaks about three heavens in the scriptures , of course there is also hell but you guys do not like me bringing up this awful subject do you

So I wont

Alan

[Al;an:] "Christianity only speaks about three heavens in the scriptures ."
_______________________________________________________
This issue is addressed in reply #4.   Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-3), the standard locale of Paradise in ancient Judaism.  But ancient Judaism varies in its estimate of whether there are 3, 5, 7, or 10 heavens.  It is therefore highly possible that Paul inferred from his OBE that there are more than 3 heavens.  Jesus' allusion to "many" pre-prepared postmortem "resting places" (Greek: "mone"--John 14:2-3) is best taken as a reference to many levels of heavens rather than as many buildings.  

Don

Don said: "The notion of a "soul disk" is not only false; it is incoherent and therefore meaningless.  Both ES and classical channeling experience the phenomena of a group soul, but recognize it as several distinct souls bound together by the principle of like attracts like, not as one over-soul attracting reincarnational lives or combining soul fragments. In my view the "soul disk" notion is a New Age preconception imposed on an misunderstood astral experience.  "

Don- In Lighted Passage, page 215, Rea (the deceased daughter of Rev. Vincent) tells her father about her own persona:  "I-the Rea you know-was only a small part of the being that I am in eternity.  Like a flower, you saw only the visible.  Well, the real Rea is the whole past with all its journeys summed up in being, and now there is another new journey concering which I can only surmise."

Rondelle:

The experiences of some people have found differently than what Don contends, including my experiences. A combination of experiences and spirit messages told me that the disk viewpoint is true in some way. These experiences and messages happened in a way where it wasn't a matter of my imagination spinning out mullarkey.

There are near death experiencers who have found the same thing in their own way.  Consider the below words of Thomas Sawyer. What do they add up to? P.M.H. Atwater found that only one finger of our soul incarnates. What does this imply? Also posted is what Ron Kruger experienced during his NDE.

Perhaps disks join with other disks to form soul groups. When people find out about souls within a group, they sometimes don't find out how extensive each soul, as a disk, is.

The disk viewpoint doesn't need to be viewed as an unpleasant thing. If your higher self and disk members live according to love and divine will, why would this be a problem?

From Thomas Sawyer's NDE:
"Reincarnation is not a linear thing. One of the problems in defining it is that there is no analogy to it. It is outside of time, yet we can't help but think of it in terms of the past and the future, and this incarnation. The whole story is so big and so involved.

Reincarnation is an opportunity to reach a goal. The goal is true self-realization. Self-realization is to know that you are a soul, a part of God, yet also the Whole. Perhaps no one has a very good image at all of his or her soul - the whole self. And they have no idea of what proportion their personality is in relationship to their soul.

As an example, a characteristic of your personality is one percent of all of your personality characteristics put together, and all of your personality characteristics make up your personality, and your personality is only about five percent of your soul, then we are blinding ourselves to 95 percent of the rest of our soul in order to reincarnate.

Reincarnation is an opportunity to evolve through many personalities. The definition of reincarnation is that your personality is who you are in your current lifetime, and that it can be reincarnated as an entirely different personality with the characteristics of the previous personality and previous personalities including even characteristics of another soul altogether. That is, characteristics of your present personality may be the reincarnation of other characteristics of personalities from your previous lifetimes as well as characteristics from personalities from other souls."

FROM RON Kruger's NDE:
"THE HEAVENLY PLAINS

What I’ll call the “Heavenly Plains” was full of loving peace. An infinite expanse of glorious light enveloped and permeated everything. This light was evenly distributed and seemed to undulate gently with a force field.

Directly in front of me, but slightly below, stood a group of spirits: less than 100, but more than 50. Each spirit had an identity of sorts, but they were part of each other–a single entity, a single awareness, all part of a single force. In the center of the front row were three oriental women. I realized that all of the spirits comprising the entity were my past lives, and that the oriental women were my most recent lives.

Their faces were clearly humanoid, but from their shoulders down, their forms blurred gradually. Their arms and legs dissolved near their ends. Hovering on the same level, in rows, they seemed loosely joined at the shoulders. Their identities were of both sexes and all nationalities. None were deceased relatives, and I recognized none of them from my recent life.

Each of the spirits had lived once, but the truth and experience and wisdom of each lifetime was integral to the entire group. When each soul returned, their lives were absorbed by all, so there where no distinctions between thoughts and attitudes within the group. Each of them shared completely every experience and every knowledge of every lifetime into a single conscience. Like spices and other ingredients added to a Mulligan Stew, each added to the mix, but the resulting flavor was one. I was them, and they were me. There were all of my past, and they were my present.

They communicated with me as one, not with words, but by a kind of telepathy. Every thought, whether it was one simple emotion or volumes of information, came packaged with instant and complete understanding. No message could suffer misinterpretation, the problems of syntax, or the variance of intelligence."










rondele wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 2:13pm:

Don said: "The notion of a "soul disk" is not only false; it is incoherent and therefore meaningless.  Both ES and classical channeling experience the phenomena of a group soul, but recognize it as several distinct souls bound together by the principle of like attracts like, not as one over-soul attracting reincarnational lives or combining soul fragments. In my view the "soul disk" notion is a New Age preconception imposed on an misunderstood astral experience.  " Don- In Lighted Passage, page 215, Rea (the deceased daughter of Rev. Vincent) tells her father about her own persona:  "I-the Rea you know-was only a small part of the being that I am in eternity.  Like a flower, you saw only the visible.  Well, the real Rea is the whole past with all its journeys summed up in being, and now there is another new journey concering which I can only surmise."

Related to what Kathy wrote, going by the information I've received, each member of a disk does have its own existence, while being a part of the disk at the same time. It is isn't necessary for returning members to be extinquished in order for a disk and its members to receive information from a returning member. In fact, a disk receives information from a member even while a member is incarnated.  Eventually, each member will have a consciousness level that is disk-like in nature. Certainly, this is a productive way to take care of the spiritual evolution of many souls, rather than numerous incarnations resulting in only one soul.

Going by how information was revealed to Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe, it seems as if they were told that individual disk members do exist even after they return to a disk.  Some people might say that this is simply an interprative issue. For example, when Coach communicated to Bruce, Coach didn't actually exist. Rather, Bruce's higher self chose to represent itself as Coach. I don't get the impression that this is the case. I figure that Coach actually did exist when he communicated with Bruce.  I wonder what Bruce would say about this matter. I figure he knows better than the rest of us.

When it comes to the impression I've formed, I believe that my higher self understood that I wanted to know if disk members continue to exist after they rejoin a disk. Unless I interpreted the messages I received in a false way (it happens at times ;)) the messages I've received imply that disk members continue to exist, after they rejoin a disk.

Albert-

Let's take as a premise that Jesus was in fact the Son of God, and that His teachings were truthful.

If that is correct, then it seems to me that something doesn't quite add up.  Why would He say, for instance, that the wages of sin is death?  After all, if we really are comprised of many different...and conflicting..personalities, that means at times we've been saints and sometimes sinners, maybe even murderers.

So why would Jesus be so adamant and uncompromising if He knew that we are a "mulligan stew" of different characteristics?

After all, if we are both good and evil, then wouldn't He have been a bit more understanding?

R

Regarding the oversoul/disk theory, the only way to understand the truth behind it is to experience it yourself.  Rob Monroe, Bruce Moen, Recoverer, and I, along with many others who have posted their experiences here on this forum and on other boards, have experienced this truth first hand.  It seems the ones who disagree with this theory are going by what other people have said and not their own experience and inner truth.  The problem with this second-hand method of gathering information and understanding reality is flawed for obvious reasons.  

Albert,

You and Dude act as if personal experience with no compelling verifications entitles you to dismiss personal experience with awesome verfications (Swedenborg and the best of mediumship).  You distort my position and make no attempt to explain ES's later disillusionment with his astral experiences of what he mistook for his own reincarnation memories. In my view, your persistence in ducking a plausible counter view just shows that you are imposing a New Age doctrinal overlay on to a misunderstood experience.   And as Albert knows very well, I am not rejecting the Group Soul doctrine; I am merely challenging your interpretation of it, given the alternative view that comes from a more credible adept and is metaphysically coherent in a way that you have failed to explain for your perspective.  Let me try again: What is your perspective on how multiple selves can be independently conscious as individuals, and at the same time, conscious as one Overself?  What do these soul fragments actually do in their sequential activities?

Roger, I find "soul pre-existence," but no reincarnation concept in "Lighted Passage."  But I cannot find your quote on page 215.  Would you please check it and see if you have cited the wrong page?

Don  

Don-

Yes, quote is on pg 215.  In case your book is re-numbered for some reason, it's on the 8th page following Chapter X, Honeymoon Revisited.

R

Quote:

What is your perspective on how multiple selves can be independently conscious as individuals, and at the same time, conscious as one Overself?  What do these soul fragments actually do in their sequential activities?

Although this question was directed towards Albert, I am going to answer as well.  

The way I understand it is as follows.  A "being" of a very high vibration, lets call him "Mr.Disk," basically decides to explore the physical dimension first hand.  The entirety of Mr.Disk's consciousness cannot exist in the physical dimension, however.  Mr.Disk has to be involved with much more than his incarnation's ego-self activities... he has to deal with the developement and regulation of his incarnation's body and its functions, the activities of his incarnation's subconscious mind, and the process by which his incarnation manifests his reality through his thoughts and beliefs.  Mr.Disk is responsible for all aspects of his incarnation's existence, yet his incarnation, being consciously unaware of him(Mr.Disk), is in control of his own life from his own narrow perspective.  

Mr.Disk filters himself into multiple time frames as multiple individuals.  He is intimately aware of each aspect of his consciousness, for it is from his consciousness, his energy, that these individuals get their lives from, and although his incarnations are not consciously aware of him during waking hours, during the dream state they consciously reconnect and interact with Mr.Disk.  So at the level of Mr.Disk, all of these incarnated individuals are at a state of oneness with each other, for Mr.Disk's consciousness encompasses all of them.  Mr.Disk has his own unique consciousness at his level of existence, PLUS he is the consciousness of all of his incarnated personalities.  Of course, at their individual level of consciousness while on earth, they appear to be separate beings existing on their own.  In reality, they are all one with each other, for the very essence of their being, the core of their existence, is Mr.Disk.

This is the relationship as I see it between disk members and their oversoul.  It seems pretty coherent to me.

Don-

I don't find any reincarnation concept in the book either.  However, the quote from Rea is intriguing.  To me, it suggests some kind of multi-dimensionality aspect of our souls.

The book overall is a powerful confirmation of the concept of retrievals.  Given that it was written in the 1940s, I'm wondering how long retrievals have been done?

Is there anything in the literature that speaks to this?  I know the RC practice of praying for release of souls in purgatory is somewhat similar as is soul retrievals, but specifically what is background of humans guiding "stuck" souls to the light as is explained in Lighted Passage?

Obviously Rev Vincent was not a TMI graduate!  :)

Rondelle:

First of all, I believe that a spirit rejoins its disk only it after it goes through whatever growth experiences it has to go through before it can do so. For example, if it lived its life in this World in a negative way, it might end up in a lower realm for a while, before it gets to rejoin its disk.

Regarding the words you attributed to Jesus, anywhere from 60-120 years passed until his words were recorded. If you add translational factors, it is possible that some of the words attributed to him in the Bible didn't actually come from. When I read the words attributed to him many sound right, but sometimes I'll read words attributed to him and it is hard to believe that they actually came from him. Any man or being who lives according to love and divine wisdom wouldn't say such words. If one suggests I'm being selective, what choice do I have?  It would be erroneous for people to assume that every word attributed to Jesus actually comes from. I believe that people do him an injustice if they allow words to be attributed to him, that aren't loving in nature. Therefore, each of us needs to listen to our intelligence, common sense and heart, when we try to determine which words did come from him and which don't. As long as we have pure intentions when we do so we'll do okay, even if we get it wrong every once in a while. Going by the many demoninations of Christianity that exist, people have interpreted his words in many ways.

Regarding the wages of sin are death, if these words were true lower realms wouldn't exist, because there wouldn't be any spirits who end up in such realms.  I and other people have found through spiritual experiences that spirits do make their way out of lower realms.


rondele wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 9:18pm:

Albert- Let's take as a premise that Jesus was in fact the Son of God, and that His teachings were truthful. If that is correct, then it seems to me that something doesn't quite add up.  Why would He say, for instance, that the wages of sin is death?  After all, if we really are comprised of many different...and conflicting..personalities, that means at times we've been saints and sometimes sinners, maybe even murderers. So why would Jesus be so adamant and uncompromising if He knew that we are a "mulligan stew" of different characteristics? After all, if we are both good and evil, then wouldn't He have been a bit more understanding? R

Don:

First of all, I'll respond to your post before reading Dude's post. It'll be interesting to see if we come up with something similar.

Regarding how disk members can be one and many at the same time, I believe the same is true for every soul that exists. We are all many and one at the same time. We started as one and them became many without "truly" doing so. When a soul gets to the point where it doesn't want to shut other souls out for whatever reasons, it will be able to experience how we are one an many at the same time. This happens when we live completely according to love.

What about what Swedenborg says about how male and female spirits marry each other?  They merge as one, the female's intellect becomes inactive because the male's intellect takes over, and the male's volition becomes inactive, because the female's volition takes over. Are they one and separate at the same time? Perhaps I should not of used this example, because I find it hard to believe.  First of all, I don't believe that our spirits have male and female genders. If anything we have both masculine and feminine qualities, without physical gender traits having anything to do with it. When we reach a higher level of being, we are all one, and marriage as Swedenborg portrays doesn't seem necessary. Do women really have the fate of having to give up their intellects some day? Sounds kind of chauvanistic to me.

Swedenborg also talks about soul groups that are united as one as if they are one being. If I remember right, this is what he said Archangel Michael is about.  How can they be one and many at the same time?  

I believe it is a mistake to conclude who's information is more accurate according to how many verifications have been made. There are other factors. Some people aren't here in order to prove things to other people. They are here to take care of whatever spirit work they need to take care of. When it came to information I received about disks and such, it came in a way where it is hard to doubt. I figure the same is true for other people who have done the same. Our experiences don't get invalidated simply because Swedenborg didn't have the same experiences. Perhaps it wasn't appropriate for him to learn about disks. Perhaps people from his time period weren't ready for such information. Information was provided to him that people would accept. Because it wasn't appropriate to tell him about disks, he couldn't be told about reincarnation, because it couldn't be explained how precisely it works.

I say the above with the belief that when the spirit World tries to help us out, our limited belief systems present a problem. Therefore, they sometimes have to present information that doesn't represent the entire truth, whether they like it or not. They aren't at fault, we are.



Berserk2 wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 1:30am:

Albert, You and Dude act as if personal experience with no compelling verifications entitles you to dismiss personal experience with awesome verfications (Swedenborg and the best of mediumship).   You distort my position and make no attempt to explain ES's later disillusionment with his astral experiences of what he mistook for his own reincarnation memories. In my view, your persistence in ducking a plausible counter view just shows that you are imposing a New Age doctrinal overlay on to a misunderstood experience.   And as Albert knows very well, I am not rejecting the Group Soul doctrine; I am merely challenging your interpretation of it, given the alternative view that comes from a more credible adept and is metaphysically coherent in a way that you have failed to explain for your perspective.  Let me try again: What is your perspective on how multiple selves can be independently conscious as individuals, and at the same time, conscious as one Overself?  What do these soul fragments actually do in their sequential activities? Roger, I find "soul pre-existence," but no reincarnation concept in "Lighted Passage."  But I cannot find your quote on page 215.  Would you please check it and see if you have cited the wrong page? Don

Because my higher self, oversoul, Mr. Disk, whatever you want to call it, enabled me to have an experience where I was aware of twelve selves at the same time, yet I still felt as if I was me, a much bigger me, I believe it is possible for a being to exist in the manner Dude describes.

I don't believe my imagination was responsible for the experience I had. But even if it was, if it was possible for my imagination to create such an experience, then it is possible for a higher level being to exist in a similar matter, because certainly a higher level being could create such a way of existing.



I Am Dude wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 11:33am:

Quote: What is your perspective on how multiple selves can be independently conscious as individuals, and at the same time, conscious as one Overself?  What do these soul fragments actually do in their sequential activities? Although this question was directed towards Albert, I am going to answer as well.   The way I understand it is as follows.  A "being" of a very high vibration, lets call him "Mr.Disk," basically decides to explore the physical dimension first hand.  The entirety of Mr.Disk's consciousness cannot exist in the physical dimension, however.  Mr.Disk has to be involved with much more than his incarnation's ego-self activities... he has to deal with the developement and regulation of his incarnation's body and its functions, the activities of his incarnation's subconscious mind, and the process by which his incarnation manifests his reality through his thoughts and beliefs.  Mr.Disk is responsible for all aspects of his incarnation's existence, yet his incarnation, being consciously unaware of him(Mr.Disk), is in control of his own life from his own narrow perspective.   Mr.Disk filters himself into multiple time frames as multiple individuals.  He is intimately aware of each aspect of his consciousness, for it is from his consciousness, his energy, that these individuals get their lives from, and although his incarnations are not consciously aware of him during waking hours, during the dream state they consciously reconnect and interact with Mr.Disk.  So at the level of Mr.Disk, all of these incarnated individuals are at a state of oneness with each other, for Mr.Disk's consciousness encompasses all of them.  Mr.Disk has his own unique consciousness at his level of existence, PLUS he is the consciousness of all of his incarnated personalities.  Of course, at their individual level of consciousness while on earth, they appear to be separate beings existing on their own.  In reality, they are all one with each other, for the very essence of their being, the core of their existence, is Mr.Disk. This is the relationship as I see it between disk members and their oversoul.  It seems pretty coherent to me.

Albert-

It just seems to me that somewhere in the New Testament we would have had at least a hint about our true nature (assuming we are all multidimensional creatures).

I wonder if that concept was even in vogue during that time?

Have you read any of Michael Newton's books?  He also contends that when we incarnate, we take only a portion of our total energy with us.  Energy in this sense refers to our soul.  In other words, part of us is here, part stays behind.  And he also subscribes to the disk theory, altho he calls it soul clusters.

(You know, a lot of this is very close to the Seth material.)

Rondelle:

For the most part, the gospels seem to represent when Jesus spoke to the masses. I doubt that the masses wanted to hear about disks. It isn't necessary that people know about disks in order to live their life in a positive manner.

Regarding Michael Newton, his books don't seem completely accurate to me. He speaks as if lower realms and unfriendly influences don't exist.  He speaks of souls in a manner that is limiting.  I read a little of his third book, and he sure provides a lot of suggestions.

Regarding Seth, my belief is that Jane Roberts made up Seth (I'm not one hundred percent certain), and the oversoul viewpoint didn't start with her.

If a person felt what it feels like to be in contact with his or her disk/I-there/higher self/oversoul, he or she wouldn't believe that it is demonic.



rondele wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 1:50pm:

Albert- It just seems to me that somewhere in the New Testament we would have had at least a hint about our true nature (assuming we are all multidimensional creatures). I wonder if that concept was even in vogue during that time? Have you read any of Michael Newton's books?  He also contends that when we incarnate, we take only a portion of our total energy with us.  Energy in this sense refers to our soul.  In other words, part of us is here, part stays behind.  And he also subscribes to the disk theory, altho he calls it soul clusters. (You know, a lot of this is very close to the Seth material.)

Don

Keep in mind that ES lived during the 18th century. Human consciousness is constantly evolving.  We are closer to understanding the true nature of our existence now then we have ever been before.  I'm willing to bet that if ES lived in the 21st century, his perceptions of what he experienced would be quite different.

Rondele and others,

I have just returned to the forum and onto this topic,

Your early comment where Jesus says "The wages of sin is death but the gift of god is eternal life"

What he meant was as finite imperfect beings, if we are compared to the absolute mind-boggling perfection of Almighty God we fall far to short to get his favor all on our own by our own methods.

Like god sits on a remote star, and we climb the highest earthly mountain to get to him out there on that remote star in the universe.

No matter how hard we try we can never reach God all on our own


We need urgent help, this is where Jesus comes in, and he can reach down from the star and pull us up to where God is and act as our advocate (called Divine grace)

Maybe a silly analogy, metaphor I hope it helps

Peace

Alan

Quote:

I doubt that the masses wanted to hear about disks.

Hilarious.  And very true.  It's funny mainly because the people back then, in their rather unadvanced state of consciousness, would not even be able to comprehend such a concept, let alone accept it as truth.

Don- In Lighted Passage, page 215, Rea (the deceased daughter of Rev. Vincent) tells her father about her own persona:  "I-the Rea you know-was only a small part of the being that I am in eternity.  Like a flower, you saw only the visible.  Well, the real Rea is the whole past with all its journeys summed up in being, and now there is another new journey concering which I can only surmise."
___________________________________________________

Roger,

I tracked down your quote on p. 211 of my edition.  Posters are mistaken to imagine that Disk ideology is too arcane for an early Christian mindset.  Jesus and His disciples took the doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul for granted.  They assume that souls can develop virtues and character flaws in that pre-existent state (e. g. John 9:1-2; cp. Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20). According to one intertestamental Jewish work (2 Enoch), souls were created during the creation of the universe.  So what were they doing back then?   Clearly our memory of our pre-birth existence has been erased or rendered dormant for our own good in this earth school.  This suppressed memory might explain Rea's experience of being so much more than she realized on Earth.

The Bible and contemporary Judeo-Christian texts do not detail what transpires prior to our birth.  But one early Church Father (Origen--225 AD) speaks of several pre-existent lives in other worlds in which spiritual lessons are learned.  In each prior life, a suitable body was inhabited for that world.  God tells the prophet Jeremiah that He knew Him before His birth and called Jeremiah to be a prophet prior to his birth (Jeremiah 1:5).   This is reincarnation not in the sense of  prior lives on earth, but in the sense of prior lives in the unique spiritual schools provided by different worlds.

Here is my most important point.  The EXPERIENCE of the Group Soul is very real.  Its reality is independently attested, not refuted, by the pro-and anti-reincarnational perspectives of the adepts.  The real issue is who is right and who is biased by preconceptions.  This question informs my skepticism of the New Age reincarnation interpretation.  Swedenborg had no dog in this fight.  Yet he learns that his prior reincarnationist interpretation of astral past lives is incorrect and that unconscious spirit mergers are flooding his memory with those of other distinct spirits.  In a world with no space and time, distinct spirits may have constant access to each other's memories and this may be wrongly confused as an oversoul.

Don

Don:

But what if the beings a person is in contact with, purposely present information to a person where it is clear that they are stating that the disk viewpoint is true in some way? When such information is received, it isn't a matter of interpretting a soul group experience in a false way.

In a way, there isn't much of a difference between the soul group viewpoint and the disk viewpoint. In each case, a being that is composed of numerous parts exists as if it is one being.  This larger being and its members learn from the lessons of selves that incarnate.  The bounderies that exist between different members are only as rigid as its members allow them to be. After all, we all started out from one being.

My feeling is that each soul can open to as much of the all as it allows itself to do so.  A part of allowing is letting go of the limitations that prevent it from doing so.

Regarding what people from Biblical times could understand, I don't know about this matter as well as you; nevertheless, I figure that if some of them were still doing things such as animal sacrifices, they probably didn't have a frame of mind that would allow them to accept the disk viewpoint. People from the time period believed the World was flat, the sun rotates around the earth, and God looks like a person. Perhaps I'm wrong about the later point. If they believed that God is a very vast being who isn't limited by our form based concepts, perhaps they believed that he could use his creative ability in any way he wants, including disk creation. If disks serve a functional purpose that serve the greater good, where is the problem?

Albert,

(1) Spirits can impersonate and lie about both New Age and Christian perspectives.  At least ES claims he ascended higher and was disabused of his reincarnationist perspective on higher planes.

(2) No, the biblical perspective does not include incarnate souls benefitting from lessons learned from other preincarnate souls in some collective group soul.  But neither is this possibility discounted.  The view that a prior cluster of mind-sharing but independent souls
might bring wisdom from this merger to earth seems promising.  But there is no need to link this to a continuity of soul identity with some Oversoul.  Interstingly, this perspective fits with Rupert Sheldrake's research on morphogenetic fields of consciousness that allow insights from one part of the earth to be conveyed animals of the same species elsewhere on earth.

(3) Flat Earth?  Wel, in some texts, but  ::)...
:"God stretches the northern sky over EMPTY SPACE and hangs the world on NOTHING (Job 26;7)."
In the ancient Near Eastern view, the earth floated in primordial waters or hung on pillars.

"God is enthroned above the CIRCLE of the Earth (Isaiah 40:22).
Note  that the Hebrew word for "circle" can also mean "sphere."

Don

Don said:  "(1) Spirits can impersonate and lie about both New Age and Christian perspectives."


Recoverer responds: "I believe the above is true. It is up to each of us to determine whether or not we are in contact with friendly spirits.  Below are some possible guidelines:

1. If you feel love, peace and a sense of divinity when you make contact with a spirit, then this spirit probably lives according to love and light. There have been numerous times when I have been in contact with a spirit, and the feeling I received by being in contact told me much more about its purity than my rational mind could figure out.

2. The spirit you communicate with understands that if you're going to grow, you'll have to figure a lot of things out for yourself. Therefore, it won't simply provide you with all kinds of information and tell you to believe this way. For the most part, the information it provides you with serves the purpose of facillitating spirituall growth. It'll help you become aware of the psychological issues that limit you.

3. Related to number 2, a friendly spirit might offer you perspectives on moral issues, but it will basically leave it up to you to decide what a moral way of living is about.  It will encourage you to listen to your heart and trust yourself. A friendly spirit will help you find out about your inner strength.

4. A friendly spirit will show that it is aware of virtues that an unfriendly spirit wouldn't be aware of. For example, an unfriendly spirit wouldn't be capable of helping you have experiences where through experience you learn about humility, reverence, grattitude and divine love.

5. A friendly spirit won't show any signs that it is looking out for its personal interests. If anything, it'll show that it has the greater good in mind. When it comes to the guidance I'm in contact with, it focuses its attention on helping me grow in love not only for my sake, but because it really does make a difference what kind of vibration we share with the rest of the World. The more each of us can share love, the more the state of affairs in this World will improve.

6. Eventually it will become clear that a friendly spirit tends to have more faith in you than you have in yourself.

7. I also receive advice about my diet, because when I eat in a way that serves my energetic needs, it improves my ability to provide the spirit help I provide.

The above isn't the result of what I've read, it is the result of what I've experienced.

I figure if a person has good intentions, he or she is more likely to make a connection to friendly spirits rather than unfriendly spirits. I believe we have a natural connection to friendly spirits, not unfriendly spirits.

Quote:

Here is my most important point.  The EXPERIENCE of the Group Soul is very real.  Its reality is independently attested, not refuted, by the pro-and anti-reincarnational perspectives of the adepts.  The real issue is who is right and who is biased by preconceptions.  This question informs my skepticism of the New Age reincarnation interpretation.  Swedenborg had no dog in this fight.  Yet he learns that his prior reincarnationist interpretation of astral past lives is incorrect and that unconscious spirit mergers are flooding his memory with those of other distinct spirits.  In a world with no space and time, distinct spirits may have constant access to each other's memories and this may be wrongly confused as an oversoul. Don

Some infos please. What is difference between disk, soul group, total being and oversoul?

Thank you for answers.

smidee

By "total being" I mean the total amount of consciousness space/capacity in which a soul exists. Our physical existence is only a stream or small amount of the total consciousness that makes up the amount of consciousness that we truly are and/or have access to as our total self. This idea probably aligns most with Don's description of soul group "mind sharing" consciousness where there is no separation... distinction yes, separation no.

We are the consciousness of our total being and the physical experience is only a tiny consciousness stream extending out from our total being to experience the earth life consciousness system. We are never not our total being, it only seems that way because memory of this has been dimmed by the rules/laws of physical reality in which we perceive ourselves as separated from our total being.

The quality of the consciousness of our total being is reflected at what I call our core essence. The higher the quality the more love we radiate from the core essence, the lower the quality, the more fear and ego is reflected from the core essence. Hence all quality types exist. The "lower realms" are total beings (souls) whose core essence contains a lot of fear and ego. The "higher realms are total beings (souls) whose core essence contains a lot of love because they lack fear and ego.

The more fear and ego we let go of, the more our essence radiates love. This happens automatically because at the core we, even as a tiny stream of consciousness, carry the pattern (seed) of the larger consciousness system (God) that is a brilliant being of love. The less fear and ego we have, the more this pattern of brilliant love up wells and shines through us.

Kathy

I like all of what Kathy wrote, but the below really caught my attention. A nice way to put it.

"where there is no separation... distinction yes, separation no."