Hi all , he has just released a book on the afterlife and has some pity open opinons on religion and science. Have any of you any opinons on Deepak Chopra and his beliefs , and have perhaps had a read of his book LIFE AFTER DEATH - The burden of proof.

Hi rNick,

I like him alot. His thoughts seem to reach into my soul.

Unfortunately it seems he repeats and pads his information alot,
unavoidable I suppose, when he has so many times and places
to share his insights. I don't know if he ever gets time to go on
spiritual retreats for himself to develope further insights. So I
haven't read his recent work--maybe what I said isn't even true
any longer.

Bets

I've read a few bits of his and thought they were spot on, and his output, clarity of communication and energy are amazing. His highly commercial, academically respectable and media savvy ways made me (almost certainly wrongly) a little cautious for many years though.

He actually does a huge job and I suspect is really important in his reaching out to those in the 'modern'  world who otherwise are not open to spiritual ideas from the great traditions.....

 He has an interesting chart, and i would say has a chart which is innately fairly fast vibrating overall.   Sun Jupiter CON.  Cusp birth, and Sun near Arcturus, fairly strong Neptune, strong Uranian energy but more related to the 'past' (Uranus can be rather extreme though).   Emphasis on the latter signs in the Zodiac, decent balance between the masculine and feminine energies (all in all, probably over polarized to the feminine).

 He would have probable tendencies with sexual issues and obsessing too much on sex, if the chart i saw is completely accurate (besides potentially inaccurate recording of birth time, sometimes the physical and spiritual birth vary enough to change the chart considerable).    And with his closer romantic and business partners in his more personal life, he may have  sharp, biting or even caustic tongue tendencies which strongly need to be regenerated in this life.  Wooee, Mercury Mars conjunct within about a degree in both Scorpio and the 8th house AND squared the Saturn Pluto CON in Leo in the 5th/6th!  Communication and projection of self isn't always want it seems (rarely is with Pluto, Scorpio, and the 8th), and would tend also to be rather "obsessional" in nature.  

Overall, quite a Powerful chart, and if he has or could overcome the more difficult aspects of same, what a powerhouse for good.   Kind of reminds me of Gandhi's chart in some ways.

 Recoverer, know anything about Chopra, any skeletons looking in the closet?   Osho's chart, showed him more for his truer and more complex colors from what i remember (again, if it was completely accurate to begin with).

Ahso asked:   "Recoverer, know anything about Chopra, any skeletons looking in the closet?   Osho's chart, showed him more for his truer and more complex colors from what i remember (again, if it was completely accurate to begin with). "


Argh Ahso! Want me to be the bad guy again? :)  There have been some legal issues connected to him, but I didn't follow the cases.  I've seen him on TV a few times, but have read little of what he has to say. I definitely don't believe he's an enlightened being. I don't know if he claims to be one or gets treated like one.  

I believe it is okay for people to write spiritual books without being completely perfected masters. The important thing is how do they present themselves? If to some degree they present themselves as being a person who really knows what it is all about even though they don't, this fact should be considered. If they make it clear that I'm just sharing what I've found, but I don't know all of the answers, and I could be wrong, I believe this is fine.

Regarding fine, Deepak did provide his endorsement at the back of a Seth book. I wonder if he believes that as Seth states, Jesus wasn't crucified, and was just making a joke when he said to love your neighbor as yourself." Just before Jesus said this, he said, "thou shalt love thy lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul, and all thy mind." Did Seth/Deepak, also consider this to be a joke?

I don't mean to suggest that Deepak has evil in mind. Chances are he is trying to be helpful.  There have been a number of good hearted people who endorse Seth.  However, Deepak's endorsement of Seth/Jane Roberts shows that his discrimination isn't perfect.

Perfect? What is perfection? Something in which we could find nothing better? We cannot say that even about our posts, our thoughts, or anything we think without defining it through a cultural and personal set of circumstances that do not necessarily apply to every individual in the exact same way -- which makes it imperfect.

As I stated, er, concurred to, in a previous post --- don't limit yourself by the beliefs and insistances of others, their books, their thoughts, their opinions. Consider it important to question everything, but trust that you will find the answer you need. It is okay to change your mind, modify your position, or come to a conclusion that is completely foreign to anyone and anything.

I have found that we often set standards of others that we could not live up to ourselves -- the idea of perfect again :o. I won't argue for or against Deepak or what HE believes. He arrived at his conclusions based on his life.

E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

Know very little about him - have leafed through his books at bookstores and saw him on a TV chat show once. I didn't feel strongly either way. Did get a bit of an impression of a person who is a bit overrated in his "guru-like" status though and maybe a bit full of himself. Re. Ahso's assessment that his chart shows he has a feminine personality, i recall in his interview he claimed "God is a woman", which i thought was a bit of a silly thing to say, surely God is neither masculine or feminine, but beyond either. If he likes to worship the feminine side of God, for example, like Ramakrishna did, for example, that's cool, but that's a personal thing, not something to make simplistic statements about.

Actually, the above is not completely true. He referred to God as "she"and the interviewer said "so you think God is a woman" and he said "well wouldn't you rather think that she is?" or similar. I just thought if he was trying to teach in a more balanced way he would have explained himself less glibly (we can conceive of God as masculine or feminine, it doesn't really matter etc).

 Thank you Recoverer and Orlando for the information.


EternalEssence wrote on Nov 10^th, 2007 at 12:24am:

Perfect? What is perfection? Something in which we could find nothing better? We cannot say that even about our posts, our thoughts, or anything we think without defining it through a cultural and personal set of circumstances that do not necessarily apply to every individual in the exact same way -- which makes it imperfect. [smiley=engel017.gif]

  I guess what i would stress is that maybe in the grand scheme of things, that perfect and imperfect isn't so important a comparison, since it all seems to be working out towards perfection.   However, this doesn't mean that perfection and imperfection doesn't exist now in a more objective sense.   The left brain side of us, is just as important and part of the whole as the right brain, feminine side.

 I would say that PUL is perfection or rather the living of it leads to same, as reasoned from the Creator's and the first fully conscious Co-Creator with same, perspectives.   A person can eventually fit themselves as full and complete channels for that energy and awareness.   Few seem to have fully completed this process while in the physical Earth..but doesn't mean it can't or won't be done by others and eventually the masses.  

 Both Recoverer and i seem to believe the same thing, that if one is going to look to a guide, a teacher, someone supposedly qualified as a spiritual source of info, etc., then doesn't it make pragmatic sense to look to those who are fully there?   Those who are completely intune and attuned to the purely Creative forces?   This doesn't mean that others, don't sometimes express truths, but more often than not, because they still exist so much in the "relative reality" they are just expressing their relative and imcomplete truths and NOT the truths of the One.  

 This reminds me of the life planning process, and of the Council of Elders (as been called by some).   Quite a few spiritual and psychic sources state that before every Disc decides to project another self into good ole space/time, that that more individual self meets with a Council of pure Light beings, those completely integrated between the feminine/yin, and masculine/yang, and thus who are in a sense--spoke persons for the very Creator itself.  

 Now, i've always wondered why, if reincarnation is such a freewill based process, that so many rather stubborn Souls would choose to come here, knowing that their lives will be difficult and painful.   It seems like many souls, even incarnate now, say that they don't want to reincarnate anymore and just want to hang in the nonphysical and overall more smooth and harmonious dimensions.  One can't blame em, after all life here can be pretty difficult and challenging at times.   There was a time when i didn't want to be here anymore either.

 Nobody forces them or anyone, and yet many seem to make the choice to come back.  Well after thinking/feeling deeply about it, and listening for some answers, i realized that this decision usually gets made by these more stubborn, willful and negative acting Souls during their 'meetings' with these Councils.  

 I think what happens is something like this, they are surrounded by these powerful Beings of Light who are personifications of PUL and of the Creator Consciousness, and being surrounded by so many (some say there are always 18 on a Council) of these and by such powerful and pure Light energy/consciousness...well this has the affect to temporarily raise the vibrations and expand the consciousness of those present in that sacred space.  

 The Light highlights not just our positive/constructive side, but also lights up the not so positive and constructive sides, the parts of us we need to regenerate if we are to become like those Beings.   And so, this can be a bittersweet experience for some or many...on one hand all that love is very 'pleasurable' and at the same time for some or many it can be quite painful, because you more clearly realize ones own faults which are keeping one from that same kind of attunement.     But while in that sacred space and while one's vibrations are temporarily raised (speaking in particular of so called undeveloped Souls), we strongly feel and decide to improve upon ourselves, and this oft calls in more Earth lives.  

 Now, if there was no perfection, no standard or ultimate to compare too...then all this just wouldn't work very well, would it, and there would be no need for spiritual growth or improvement to begin with, there would be no goal.  

 I think when a Soul who is not yet perfected, is in the powerful vibrations of those who are perfected and fully attuned to PUL and Source, then it realizes what exactly it needs to work on, to get there itself.  Not only it realizes this, but in that moment it deeply desires that attunement at a core level.   After all, these beings are radiantly joyful, at peace, completely positive in thought and deed, and basically seem to exist in one eternal orgasm of sorts wherein the pleasure is never lessened because it 'gets old' after awhile.   And that's the key to perfection, pure positivity, pure positivity is pure Light.  


 Course, only those fully there can fully judge from both a relative and objective viewpoint, what is complete positivity within an action, thought, feeling, etc.   But the more spiritually developed one becomes, the more clear, broad, true and holistic one's perceptions of this and other things.

Yes, I agree that sentiments you expressed are true for some.

Then again, all we perceive as being perfect and imperfect, either by comparison or other measure, first begins with the standard we set to perceive and, quite often, the intensity of the duality we choose to accept and through which we filter perceptions.

Thanks for sharing.

E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

EternalEssence wrote on Nov 14^th, 2007 at 1:53am:

Yes, I agree that sentiments you expressed are true for some. Then again, all we perceive as being perfect and imperfect, either by comparison or other measure, first begins with the standard we set to perceive and, quite often, the intensity of the duality we choose to accept and through which we filter perceptions. Thanks for sharing. E. [smiley=engel017.gif]

 Hi E.E.    I find this reply rather ironic in some respects, if examined more closely.  Can one have it both ways in this regard?   From my daily observations of others and myself, it seems like most of us, are constantly telling others either in an indirect or direct manner, what 'truth' and the ultimates are...but some it seems are just more self honest about the whole process and about what exactly they are doing when they are doing it.  

 I find self honesty to perhaps be one of the most important of traits to cultivate in any spiritual path, speaking both for myself and more universally...as well.  Yep, i sure do be a preacher at times, but i'm always in good company.  Lol, and the only completely and always self honest people...well these are those whom are perfected i.e. fully attuned to Source and P.I., and who have pure and radiant White Light auras (if one needs a more objective and universally perceivable indication).  

Yes, the irony is there, but it really can't be avoided.

I do not deny your concept of self-honesty. But even self-honesty has filters relative even to spiritual paths. It is also ironic to think that self-honesty to one would be deemed self-deception by another.

Undoubtedly, it all reduces to how one sees oneself in relation to [insert spiritual world view] and how it connects to [insert overall goal relative to spiritual world view]. Thus, if "higher" information gained through a spiritual world view was that of Christian and his overall goal was to return to the Source of his Christian creation, then all information would reflect that. Cayce, for instance, was a Christian, and all information he presented reflected that. Even when he questioned the information, he simply found his own reasons for continuing that reduced the amount of concern he had for what he was doing and the information he presented. It is not limited to Cayce by any means, as pretty much any other philosophy, religious or otherwise.

E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

Hi again,

I read last week that the Dalai Lama gave Deepak Chopra some sort of award, but the news item was just a blip, no details.

Bets

EternalEssence wrote on Nov 14^th, 2007 at 11:13am:

Undoubtedly, it all reduces to how one sees oneself in relation to [insert spiritual world view] and how it connects to [insert overall goal relative to spiritual world view]. Thus, if "higher" information gained through a spiritual world view was that of Christian and his overall goal was to return to the Source of his Christian creation, then all information would reflect that. Cayce, for instance, was a Christian, and all information he presented reflected that. Even when he questioned the information, he simply found his own reasons for continuing that reduced the amount of concern he had for what he was doing and the information he presented. It is not limited to Cayce by any means, as pretty much any other philosophy, religious or otherwise. E. [smiley=engel017.gif]

 I would agree that beliefs, and belief systems, both unconscious and conscious do usually have a strong affect on and shape how and what we tend to perceive, but at the same time i've come to understand that beliefs are not the end all to reality.   There are objective truths, which are universally perceivable, if a person would but tap into their very core of cores...this then has the affect to bypass distorted beliefs.  

 Its the same thing that Bruce talks about when he talks about PUL and how it is the most expanding and effective perception opener.   PUL is our core, and can expand our perceptions beyond our limited or limiting beliefs.    The more we consistently resonate with PUL (by both learning to out put it, and feel it), the more clear, the more expanded, the more broad, more holistic, and more accurate our perceptions and thus our beliefs about reality will become.  

  The reason of why we have distorted beliefs and perceptions to begin with, relates to First Cause influences and to the fact that now, the huge majority of us are a curious mixture of True and false self, all mixed up in an oft confusing way.   The false self wants us to believe in...well false things (after all, like attracts and begets like).   It wants to keep the ego alive, and the one thing it hates above all things is the Christ, and Christ like principles.  And so, it oft either outright denies the Christ OR it buys into a more twisted, dogmatic, and/or limiting version of same.   One does not have to be a practicing Christian, to know the truth of Christ both in the Universal sense or in the more personal, individual sense.

The latter Christ is ccertainly not the Christ that Edgar Cayce's sources (notice 'sources' not him) talked about.   Edgar Cayce's sources were made up of many varying consciousnesses, almost all guides in some capacity, some graduates from his Greater self (like Ra Tah, Uhjtld, Lucius for example), some completed Beings, some near completed Beings, Arch Angels, etc.   Many who if they had given their names (which they almost never did) would have caused awe in many of those who received readings.   Cayce almost always tapped into a very UNIVERSAL consciousness (and this was related to his Disc's spiritual development and how deep he went in trance), hence why he could speak on so many issues, get info for so many things.   And the more universal a consciousness tapped into, the more potentially constructive.

 Anyways, Cayce oft spoke on subjects of which he had no idea of, or didn't believe in.  And it took a long time for him to completely accept such beliefs, it was only till he had some deep personal experience that he accepted "reincarnation" for one example.  In some cases, what the source said during his trance, strongly contradicted and went against his belief systems.   If beliefs are the end all to reality and perception of same, how would that work?

 How is it that Recoverer an atheist at the time, and certainly not a Christian by any means, would nonphysically pick up such clear, deeply knowing at a core level, and convincing (to him) info that Christ is a large part of God's plans?

 How is that i, who definitely did not grow up as a "Christian" (there was very little dogma pushed in my household) and who initially had actually strongly negative reactions against the Church and mainstream Christianity, came to believe that Christ was the Archetypal Creational pattern and Co-Creator of this Universe?   I had no friends, family, or anyone else telling me to "believe" in him.   I did so, because even as a child, i oft went within to listen.   Later on, my studies into Cayce and other reputable psychics, confirmed these inner feelings and knowings.

 Why is that so many of the best, most consistently accurate, and most helpful sources of psychic info confirm many of the things that the N.T. says about Yeshua and his Disc Christ?  Why is it that some of the other ones (like Seth), not only contradicted these more tested and credible sources, but at times even majorily contradicted their own info about the life and true name of him?!

  So yes, while one's conscious and/or deepest beliefs oft have a strong influence on one's perceptions, they are not the end all and these can be by passed in the right conditions.  Perhaps strongly believing that beliefs are the most influencing and important thing when it comes to perceiving and perception, is a limiting belief system to begin with?  

 

 Forgot to add, that i went through a cycle where i read a lot and believed strongly in a lot of Eastern teachings and channeled stuff which led me to believe that everything was relative, and that i should be completely non dualistic in my beliefs, and being so meant that there are no ultimate or objective truths, no constructive/positive or destructive/negative, etc.  

Basically, not that much different that than the tone and beliefs you seem to be advocating.  I spent at least a couple/few years strongly in that phase.

 Looking back, i realized that while i was in this cycle, i was overly imbalanced and over polarized to the right brain and feminine/yin/passive aspect of consciousness.  It was a very Neptunian time for me.

 I don't regret going through that, and that cycle, because it was a necessary phase having originally had such a strong left brain dominance and over polarization.   It helped to balance me out.  I've also noted that this is a common pattern with many folks (especially men) on a spiritual path.   It all has to do with balance and trying to find/foster same.

 Now i feel much more clear and consistently balanced though, i'm starting to experience and see the merging of both paradoxically different, and yet completely interconnecting ways of perceiving and living reality.  Not fully there, but i get glimpses of that integrated and merged reality which to me at first seemed like an unlikely meeting of west and east, of feminine and masculine.  After all, these energies are very different on the surface, so different that at first their differences seem almost irreconcilable.  

Belief systems shape the majority. You reflect what you accept withing the framework of that with which you are exposed. You may change your position, but it is always relative to the beliefs at the time. Creativity and free will allow for such modifications.

"There are objective truths, which are universally perceivable, if a person would but tap into their very core of cores...this then has the affect to bypass distorted beliefs." --- this perhaps is true, but then again, what does one consider distorted? Relative to the belief of what is considered distorted, and therefore what you measure it against, which is based on intellectual faith or belief.

Its the same thing that Bruce talks about when he talks about PUL and how it is the most expanding and effective perception opener.   PUL is our core, and can expand our perceptions beyond our limited or limiting beliefs.    The more we consistently resonate with PUL (by both learning to out put it, and feel it), the more clear, the more expanded, the more broad, more holistic, and more accurate our perceptions and thus our beliefs about reality will become.
Interesting hypothesis, but a belief that shapes.

The reason of why we have distorted beliefs and perceptions to begin with, relates to First Cause influences and to the fact that now, the huge majority of us are a curious mixture of True and false self, all mixed up in an oft confusing way.   The false self wants us to believe in...well false things (after all, like attracts and begets like).   It wants to keep the ego alive, and the one thing it hates above all things is the Christ, and Christ like principles.  And so, it oft either outright denies the Christ OR it buys into a more twisted, dogmatic, and/or limiting version of same."
[u]One does not have to be a practicing Christian, to know the truth of Christ.." ...
Something about the way you worded this seems to express that you consider your spiritual philosophy as predominant over another, which is interesting because it highlights that part that I spoke about: intensity and beliefs as the creative force surrounding perceived ideas. I don't think I have stated that you had to be a practicing Christian, though I did state that I knew Cayce had been. I also realize that he offered information he may not have had, but he reduced his conflict between his beliefs and his experience by reducing the gap between what he perceived and what he believed. I do believe that Christ concepts and Christianity are more acceptable ideas. They are always interesting concepts.

Cayce almost always tapped into a very UNIVERSAL consciousness (and this was related to his Disc's spiritual development and how deep he went in trance), hence why he could speak on so many issues, get info for so many things.   And the more universal a consciousness tapped into, the more potentially constructive. Possible, but not necessarily a FACT. It depends as to what you consider to be acceptable proof and intellectual faith.

How is it that Recoverer an atheist at the time, and certainly not a Christian by any means, would nonphysically pick up such clear, deeply knowing at a core level, and convincing (to him) info that Christ is a large part of God's plans?. Possibly exposure to such materials growing up. Obviously being an atheist, one must accept the idea that there is no "God" thus the concept of God must be understood, absorbed, intellectually rationalized. I won't speak about another person's experience. How exactly does one go about believing in the nonexistence of something that doesn't exist to be not believed in?

"How is that i, who definitely did not grow up as a "Christian" (there was very little dogma pushed in my household) and who initially had actually strongly negative reactions against the Church and mainstream Christianity, came to believe that Christ was the Archetypal Creational pattern and Co-Creator of this Universe?   I had no friends, family, or anyone else telling me to "believe" in him.   I did so, because even as a child, i oft went within to listen.   Later on, my studies into Cayce and other reputable psychics, confirmed these inner feelings and knowings. Well, you were exposed to the ideas, which shaped you. It sounds like you simply found an acceptable way to merge two opposing aspects which led you to search for information that eventually helped supplement what you've alway felt to be true.


"Why is that so many of the best, most consistently accurate, and most helpful sources of psychic info confirm many of the things that the N.T. says about Yeshua and his Disc Christ?" This is a slippery slope, because ideas of accuracy and "helpful" are relative to the person seeking the information. Why is it that some of the other ones (like Seth), not only contradicted these more tested and credible sources, but at times even majorily contradicted their own info about the life and true name of him?! Well, can't disagree that contradictions don't exist, but it is obviously that you consider contradictions to what you believe to be bad (i.e., less tested, less credible). Contradictions do not diminish the information. They can be quite wonderful. (Look at this entire thread) The the idea here is that you have seen and see all things through what you have come to accept as truth as it has panned out for you. No one, not even I, will argue with that idea.

It is all a great adventure, isn't it.

E. [smiley=engel017.gif]

EternalEssence wrote on Nov 14^th, 2007 at 1:05pm:

It is all a great adventure, isn't it. E. [smiley=engel017.gif]

 Yup, certainly tis.  May all of our minds and hearts expand, and completely merge while on this great adventure.  

 It was an interesting chat, and thanks.

And thank you, as well.

E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

"Possibly exposure to such materials while growing up?" Possibly Eternal Essence is making an assumption because he doesn't want to seriously consider what Christ is all about.

During my night in heaven experience, despite my previous doubts, I understood at an inner level that was deeper than belief, that the afterlife and God existed, without having to think about it. This understanding was certain. Not only that, I completely understood how it was possible for God and the afterlife to exist, in a manner that was beyond what my pre-existing beliefs were.

This realm wasn't just some mere belief system. It "wasn't" a place that mirrored this physical realm. It was a place where beings abided as one in perfection without body based identities. It was understood that everything worked out perfectly in the end.

Regarding my experience of Christ during this experience, it wasn't a matter of my seeing a being of light and assuming this being was Christ. It wasn't a matter of a spirit appearing to me with the image of Jesus so I would be presented with something my preconceptions would allow me to understand. It wasn't a matter of my asking about Christ and some spirit telling me he's for real simply because this is what I could understand at the time. Rather, there was a knowledge that pervaded the realm I was in, and this knowledge inwardly let me know that Christ is in some way, a big part of human spiritual reality. When I understood this I was quite surprised, because I believed differently at the time. At the end of the experience a bright star was shown to me. I believe this star was "intentionally" shown to confirm that Christ is a significant part of divine reality, because this is what the star immediately represented to me. It makes perfect sense to me that the divine beings who helped me have this experience (I did nothing to cause it to happen), understood what I would take this star to mean. Yet they "chose" to show it to me.

Since this experience I've received a number of messages and have had a number of experiences stating that Christ is a significant part of the divine order that exists. I've received and experienced them in a manner which shows that it isn't a matter of my pre-existing beliefs being placated. They have also been presented to me in a manner that show that my own mind isn't creating them.

Why did I have these experiences while other spiritual seekers haven't? Because I came to the point where I realized it was a big mistake to allow my distaste for fundamentalism to be the deciding factor when it comes to figuring out what Christ is all about. I opened my heart and mind to the question of Christ with sincerity, and received numerous answers.

My feeling is that Christ isn't going to force himself on anybody. If a person chooses to have unwarrented prejudices against him, that is such a person's choice. My suggestion is that a person doesn't allow the fundamentalist ideas of others, to hold he or she hostage for the rest of his or her life. Once a person lets go of such limiting ideas, he or she will find that some energetic blocks within his or her heart chakra etc will be cleared away.

Eternal Essence:
Why is it you're so quick to defend various sources of information, but as soon as somebody mentions having experiences with Christ, you assume he or she dabling with a belief system?


[quote author=EternalEssence link=1194364896/0#14 date=1195059949]
How is it that Recoverer an atheist at the time, and certainly not a Christian by any means, would nonphysically pick up such clear, deeply knowing at a core level, and convincing (to him) info that Christ is a large part of God's plans?. Possibly exposure to such materials growing up. Obviously being an atheist, one must accept the idea that there is no "God" thus the concept of God must be understood, absorbed, intellectually rationalized. I won't speak about another person's experience. How exactly does one go about believing in the nonexistence of something that doesn't exist to be not believed in?

"Possibly exposure to such materials while growing up?" Possibly Eternal Essence is making an assumption because he doesn't want to seriously consider what Christ is all about. You make the usual assumption here, recoverer. Sorry if I don't jump on your bandwagon or throw a parade. I stand by what I have discussed. No more needed.

"During my night in heaven experience, despite my previous doubts, I understood at an inner level that was deeper than belief, that the afterlife and God existed, without having to think about it. This understanding was certain. Not only that, I completely understood how it was possible for God and the afterlife to exist, in a manner that was beyond what my pre-existing beliefs were." I am glad you found something you could believe in.

This realm wasn't just some mere belief system. It "wasn't" a place that mirrored this physical realm. It was a place where beings abided as one in perfection without body based identities. It was understood that everything worked out perfectly in the end. Interesting theory.

Regarding my experience of Christ during this experience, it wasn't a matter of my seeing a being of light and assuming this being was Christ. It wasn't a matter of a spirit appearing to me with the image of Jesus so I would be presented with something my preconceptions would allow me to understand. It wasn't a matter of my asking about Christ and some spirit telling me he's for real simply because this is what I could understand at the time. Rather, there was a knowledge that pervaded the realm I was in, and this knowledge inwardly let me know that Christ is in some way, a big part of human spiritual reality. When I understood this I was quite surprised, because I believed differently at the time. At the end of the experience a bright star was shown to me. I believe this star was "intentionally" shown to confirm that Christ is a significant part of divine reality, because this is what the star immediately represented to me. It makes perfect sense to me that the divine beings who helped me have this experience (I did nothing to cause it to happen), understood what I would take this star to mean. Yet they "chose" to show it to me. I am glad you found someone who understands you. I do not agree that you did nothing to cause it to happen, but that is a personal opinion.

Since this experience I've received a number of messages and have had a number of experiences stating that Christ is a significant part of the divine order that exists. I've received and experienced them in a manner which shows that it isn't a matter of my pre-existing beliefs being placated. They have also been presented to me in a manner that show that my own mind isn't creating them. It's good that you are taking notes.

Why did I have these experiences while other spiritual seekers haven't? Because I came to the point where I realized it was a big mistake to allow my distaste for fundamentalism to be the deciding factor when it comes to figuring out what Christ is all about. I opened my heart and mind to the question of Christ with sincerity, and received numerous answers. Why are you asking this? You were involved in it, you participated. I'm sure you know why it happened. If not, maybe you are, as you say, blocked. In that case, I am confident you will figure it out.

My feeling is that Christ isn't going to force himself on anybody. If a person chooses to have unwarrented prejudices against him, that is such a person's choice. My suggestion is that a person doesn't allow the fundamentalist ideas of others, to hold he or she hostage for the rest of his or her life. Once a person lets go of such limiting ideas, he or she will find that some energetic blocks within his or her heart chakra etc will be cleared away. Feelings are lovely, ethereal things. No one can misinterpret them.

Why is it you're so quick to defend various sources of information, but as soon as somebody mentions having experiences with Christ, you assume he or she dabling with a belief system? I am not defending anyone -- I don't need to compete for any one persons personal experiences. That implies they need my assistance, which they don't. I speak for the me of me. As with you, I don't need validation or to justify myself. As to people dabbling in a belief system...well that is just rather silly, don't you think. Beliefs about Christ don't have any experience on actuality, or so it's been said.


Blessing and Joy
E.

Eternal Essence:

Your response reminds me of the below dialogue with Bruce. Bruce didn't write specifically about the kind of experiences I shared, but I believe what he wrote still applies. Cynics aren't in a good position to invalidate the experiences of others according to their limited ways of judging them. They could find out for themselves, if they are willing.

Why do I press this issue? Because many people are too quick dissmiss the experiences of others when they involve Christ. They judge themselves to be more sophisticated that the people who have them. Consider near death experiences. Some which involve Christ could be seen to be influenced by the belief system of the person who has the experience. But there have been near death experiences where people clearly experienced things beyond what a Christian belief system would enable them to experience, yet they still found out that Christ does play a key role in the grand scheme of things. If a person dismisses such examples, there is a good chance this person is being selective according to his or her preferences. Such preferences might interfere with what he or she is able to experience spiritually.


From another thread:
"Recoverer,

Quote from recoverer on Jul 23rd, 2007, 10:49am:
How can a person be open to proof when they won't accept the proof you provide?

Your question so perfectly brings into focus the crux of the problem.  I finally came to the conclusion that it is impossible to provide proof for anyone other than ourselves through our own direct experience.  Unfortunately many who insist that nonphysical reality doesn't exist see their belieft as adequae reason to not waste their time investigating.

The planet we live on would still be flat if it hadn't been for someone who was willing risk sailing off the edge into the Abyss to discover the Truth.  And then, based on the reports of these few brave souls, other folks had the courage to sail toward the edge of the Earth to see for themselves.  

Many who visit this site have sailed beyond the edge of physical reality to search for the Truth of our afterlife's existence through there own direct experience.  And many of them now know the Truth.  I knew that was the most I could hope for when this website was first put up in 1996.  I am delighted and happy to see that so many brave souls continue to post their reports and in doing so encourage others to go sailing.

Love to you ALL,

Bruce"

http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1184817642/0#0

Your response reminds me of the below dialogue with Bruce. Bruce didn't write specifically about the kind of experiences I shared, but I believe what he wrote still applies. Cynics aren't in a good position to invalidate the experiences of others according to their limited ways of judging them. They could find out for themselves, if they are willing.
Well, thank you for comparing me with Bruce. I consider that a compliment. I have not quite figured out this obsession you have with insisting that you understand me. As I recall, you barbed someone else for that exact mentality. As to your feelings of being invalidated, I can only suggest that you deal with those psychological issues on your own. They did not originate with me. At no point have I stated "you are wrong"; however, that you presume that any idea beyond your "I bring word from heaven" scenarios are less credible is really ridiculous in my opinion. If you want to throw them around to limit other people from expressing themselves, feel free. I am use to seeing the repercussions of that here. However, again, it simply does not invalidate anything that I have stated. My chuck wagaon is still parked where it was, so feel free to circle it and take another shot if you choose.

Why do I press this issue? Because many people are too quick dissmiss the experiences of others when they involve Christ. They judge themselves to be more sophisticated that the people who have them. Consider near death experiences. Some which involve Christ could be seen to be influenced by the belief system of the person who has the experience. But there have been near death experiences where people clearly experienced things beyond what a Christian belief system would enable them to experience, yet they still found out that Christ does play a key role in the grand scheme of things. If a person dismisses such examples, there is a good chance this person is being selective according to his or her preferences. Such preferences might interfere with what he or she is able to experience spiritually. I am sure that you can find tons of information that helps you with your arguments; however, I do not argue. Again, I do not need validation of my experiences, of what I know. I am sure that I could locate just as much information that contradicts you. What would be the point? An endless argument that has nothing to do with knowledge or truth, only a need to be competitve. You will not entangle me in that mess. Your web is of your own devising. Spin it, run around gleefully bouncing from one thread to another. Enjoy yourself.

What a brilliant quote you have provided for your own argument which actually supports my point.
"I finally came to the conclusion that it is impossible to provide proof for anyone other than ourselves through our own direct experience. Brilliant. Again, if you believed that you would understand that no person can invalidate your experience.

"Unfortunately many who insist that nonphysical reality doesn't exist see their belieft as adequae reason to not waste their time investigating." Aside from the typos, I shall state that again you go beyond what you know and assume grandly, perpetrating a huge lie that you know what I have and have not investigated, what I have and have not experienced.

"The planet we live on would still be flat if it hadn't been for someone who was willing risk sailing off the edge into the Abyss to discover the Truth.  And then, based on the reports of these few brave souls, other folks had the courage to sail toward the edge of the Earth to see for themselves."
recoverer failed to follow with the question: And what about those who have sailed out and brought back information that contradicts you? How do you feel about them? (This is rather rhetorical and the answer is obvious if you are paying attention).

Many who visit this site have sailed beyond the edge of physical reality to search for the Truth of our afterlife's existence through there own direct experience.  And many of them now know the Truth.  I knew that was the most I could hope for when this website was first put up in 1996.  I am delighted and happy to see that so many brave souls continue to post their reports and in doing so encourage others to go sailing."

Bruce offered a wonderful sentiment here, recoverer. I can't agree more. Sail away.

E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

Eternal Essence:

Responses within double quotation marks below.

I am sure that you can find tons of information that helps you with your arguments; however, I do not argue. Again, I do not need validation of my experiences, of what I know. I am sure that I could locate just as much information that contradicts you. What would be the point? An endless argument that has nothing to do with knowledge or truth, only a need to be competitve. You will not entangle me in that mess. Your web is of your own devising. Spin it, run around gleefully bouncing from one thread to another. Enjoy yourself.

""The above mainly sprouted when I spoke of near death experiences. I have yet to read and NDE where a person was told, "Jesus Christ doesn't have anything to do with divine reality" in some shape or form. The experiences of people who have experienced Christ in some way, don't get negated by the lack of such an experience by people who don't experience his presence. To suggest that their lack of experience of Christ negates the experiences of those who have experienced Christ, is equivalent to saying this forum doesn't exist because some people haven't experienced it.

I write what I write so that anybody who just might have an inkling to find out what Christ is about on their own, might be inspired to do so. The reason I write about it on this thread, is because "YOU" made the suggestion that my experiences are nothing but belief system based hallucinations.  Going by your additional posts this is what you had in mind.

 Hi Recoverer, i don't see E.E. necessarily invalidating or denouncing Christ, or his place in the grand scheme of things here.  Even if she/he was, well that's her/his prerogative, just as its fine if we disagree with that.  Hopefully we all can do it in a civil and less personal manner overall.  

 Hi E.E., i don't understand some of your retorts to Recoverer, particularly about the pointlessness of debating ones beliefs, perceptions, etc., with others, when it seems you are the one who directly responded to one of his posts to begin with on this thread, and seemingly tried to tell him how he should be or believe.    You contradict yourself and some of your other statements.  

 I see no difference between you telling Albert (or i) what's up with reality, truth, and his lack of understanding of same, and him telling you his truth, and suggesting that you lack understanding.  No difference at all, except that Recoverer is not preaching one thing, and doing another, whereas you seem to be.  It was similar with you responding to my replies, and that's why i used the ironic phrase earlier.  Do you not see the inconsistency and contradiction here?

 To me, there is a world of difference (yet also a subtle one) between contradiction (especially as applied to human nature and living in the physical) and paradox (especially as applying to Archetypal creation patterns).

Paradox can be indicative of truth, just as yin/feminine--yang/masculine both being equally important and valid energies/realities/perspectives, and yet quite different and the simultaneous existence or truth of both being paradoxical seeming.    Similar with the equally true, objective truths of oneness and individuality/uniqueness--these and the law of energy resonation apply to everyone.  

 Yet, contradiction in other areas oft points to relative degrees of untruth.   There is probably a good reason why Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Cayce's sources placed a certain amount of emphasis on practical, more materially obvious verifications relating to nonphysical info.   Simple truth is that some psychic sources, have been more repeatedly verified in that more holistic way which also considers the physical and not just the mental and spiritual belief systems.  These also seem to contain less contradictions than some other psychic sources.

 Neptune and the right brain says, believe in whatever you feel to be true, let only the heart and your feelings lead you.  Mercury and the left brain says wait, some beliefs are inherently and universally constructive or destructive, better discriminate mentally, logically, and practically as well as feel.  

 When these merge completely then the Sun it all its glory shines forth.   How many are shining forth only the Sun, and who have merged these completely?

 If you go with one over the other, than you are only perceiving half truths and your perception will be distorted as judged individually, and from the perspective of the ultimate, the One.

""The above mainly sprouted when I spoke of near death experiences. I have yet to read and NDE where a person was told, "Jesus Christ doesn't have anything to do with divine reality" in some shape or form. The experiences of people who have experienced Christ in some way, don't get negated by the lack of such an experience by people who don't experience his presence. To suggest that their lack of experience of Christ negates the experiences of those who have experienced Christ, is equivalent to saying this forum doesn't exist because some people haven't experienced it.
Well, it's nice to know that possiblity exists since though you may not have read it, it doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Also, you seem to negate those having NDEs that had no Christ connections. As to the odd comment about the existence of this forum -- well, that's a stretch. To those who haven't experienced it, it doesn't exist in their reality, does it? It serves its purpose to those here, who DO experience it, because of the purpose that brought them here -- which, surprisingly is diverse and may have had nothing to do with NDEs or Christ.

I write what I write so that anybody who just might have an inkling to find out what Christ is about on their own, might be inspired to do so. The reason I write about it on this thread, is because "YOU" made the suggestion that my experiences are nothing but belief system based hallucinations. Going by your additional posts this is what you had in mind.
You make more assumptions, and then throw in words like hallucinations. Anyone reading the thread, as the person above has reported, notes that what you perceive to be denouncement is nothing of the sort. But your belief systems DO color your experiences, as your responses have thus far proven. Sorry, if that is hard to take.
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"Hi Recoverer, i don't see E.E. necessarily invalidating or denouncing Christ, or his place in the grand scheme of things here."
What is most important it seems is this concept of invalidation. As it was pointed out in a previous post, only the person having the experience can invalidate it. It is as real to them as anything; however, being real to one person with all of its coloration does not invalidate the experience of another whose experience does not reflect a belief system of the first person who had the experience.
"Even if she/he was, well that's her/his prerogative, just as its fine if we disagree with that. Hopefully we all can do it in a civil and less personal manner overall."
Supports point above.


Hi E.E., i don't understand some of your retorts to Recoverer, particularly about the pointlessness of debating ones beliefs, perceptions, etc., with others, when it seems you are the one who directly responded to one of his posts to begin with on this thread, and seemingly tried to tell him how he should be or believe. You contradict yourself and some of your other statements." Honestly? recoverer is free to BELIEVE in whatever he wants. However, he is going to have to accept the fact that his BELIEFS are his and though shared by some, it does not invalidate the reality that others have different BELIEFS that are just as valid as his claims and experiences, regardless of how he feels about them. He is free to disagree, as he often does. I applaud disagreement because it offers a chance to discuss, as does contradictions, which forces you to think beyond the confines of your experiences. It is never pointless to seek the most knowledge one can gain. As has been stated in previous posts, I have said do not limit yourself, which I believe has been stated by others.

I see no difference between you telling Albert (or i) what's up with reality, truth, and his lack of understanding of same, and him telling you his truth, and suggesting that you lack understanding. No difference at all, except that Recoverer is not preaching one thing, and doing another, whereas you seem to be. It was similar with you responding to my replies, and that's why i used the ironic phrase earlier. Do you not see the inconsistency and contradiction here?
Ah, and herein lies the the thrust of it: him telling...his truth.
First, reality is open to interpretation. I do realize that ALBERTS EXPERIENCES are ALBERT'S truth. I do not take his truth from him. BUT his truth does not entitle him to basically take another's truth from THEM. I am sure that at the core, he has something that states: this is the way it is. Fine. Let him. Let anyone. Free will and the creative spirit. I like him no less and no more because of it. It simply is the way it is. If he changes, he must do it based on his reasons. If he does not like my responses...well, honestly, I don't care. Because he doesn't agree or like something does not make it untrue to anyone but those who align themselves with similar experiences and beliefs.
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To me, there is a world of difference (yet also a subtle one) between contradiction (especially as applied to human nature and living in the physical) and paradox (especially as applying to Archetypal creation patterns). Paradox can be indicative of truth, just as yin/feminine--yang/masculine both being equally important and valid energies/realities/perspectives, and yet quite different and the simultaneous existence or truth of both being paradoxical seeming. Similar with the equally true, objective truths of oneness and individuality/uniqueness--these and the law of energy resonation apply to everyone. And everyone resonates differently.
Yet, contradiction in other areas oft points to relative degrees of untruth.
There is probably a good reason why Bob Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Cayce's sources placed a certain amount of emphasis on practical, more materially obvious verifications relating to nonphysical info. Simple truth is that some psychic sources, have been more repeatedly verified in that more holistic way which also considers the physical and not just the mental and spiritual belief systems. These also seem to contain less contradictions than some other psychic sources. One has to also factor into this equation the varying influences and the degree of those influences (internal and external) that led to them having these experiences. Bruce, for instances, found knowledge in Carlos Castenada. Does that invalidate him because some consider Castenda a hoax? What of those that do not? If he had not, would he have found what he did? Bruce was a graduate of TMI. What influence did that play (well, those of us here experience that to a degree). Do those of us graduating from TMI experience the same thing? No. In the same way? No.

Neptune and the right brain says, believe in whatever you feel to be true, let only the heart and your feelings lead you. Mercury and the left brain says wait, some beliefs are inherently and universally constructive or destructive, better discriminate mentally, logically, and practically as well as feel.
When these merge completely then the Sun it all its glory shines forth. How many are shining forth only the Sun, and who have merged these completely?
If you go with one over the other, than you are only perceiving half truths and your perception will be distorted as judged individually, and from the perspective of the ultimate, the One.
This is a beautiful philosophy. Being the astrologer you are, I am certain it means something important to you based on what I read here.


E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

Well it seems almost diabolical to mention Deppak at this point.... but here I go.

I had the great good fortune too sit with Deepak Chopra on a plane trip, and we talked for the entire six hour flight. He would be the first one to tell you that he is also a student here, just as we are, and he is fumbling along just like the rest of us.

His paradigm is Ayurvedic and blended with his western medical education, and it was a fasciating flight. He is a humble and generous man who would, like Christ, tell you that he is nothing that you are not. What he is, you are. What he can do, you can do. This and more will you, too, do.

And all the rest of it is blah-blah-blah......

There is only one of us here. But there is only one of us there, too.

Just my 2 cents worth....

Thomas

 Beautiful post Thomas, and i don't doubt that he has many wonderful traits.

 
At the same time, in a general sense, its also important to be aware of that fact that some people, people with either mental or material influence, aren't always what they seem or want others to think about them.  Considering some of things you've said to me in private, you should more than realize that.

 Problem with particularly those in the spiritual, new age world, many of them talk the talk very well, and they will tell you much they are just regular folks, blah blah blah, and it can be very convincing.  Meanwhile, they are making money off of you dishonestly, or sometimes worse.

 People's innate trust, nativity, lack of discrimination etc. is what allows those more consistently destructive or materialistic Guru types to get away with that kind of dishonest or hurtful stuff.  I'm not saying that this applies to Deepak, but just pointing out that of course we are all One and all that, and its a great focus, but while we are all one, we all are also completely unique and individual and that's just as important as Oneness...the only problem is that in the physical the differences seem to get too concentrated on, especially at the expense of the underlying Oneness.  The right brain perceives and concentrates on "Oneness" and stillness the left brain perceives and concentrates on individuality, uniqueness, and movement.   Neither one is above the other in the ultimate sense.

 Yes, i tend to keep my eyes open in relation to those selling their stuff in the spiritual world, because for one, it is not the pattern of Christ and his life--he gave without any thought of material compensation.   Especially to any who tell us that we need their stuff, or that it will cause spiritual growth.    The last one is one of the worst, but most common lies in the spiritual, new age world.   Only you exercising your freewill in a positive/constructive manner brings true spiritual growth.

Good Evening , i consider myself over most of my life a Pub and pie person. Loved meeting up with a few mates talk footy and have a good laugh, but a few things change over the last few years especially since the passing of my mother and a few good friends since. I got interested in do we contiue after that final breath , has I miss those ones close to me and those ones that shall pass before me. I have searched the internet find myself interesting chaps like Deepak Chopra and a number of interesting sites like the one im on now. Started reading more afterlife books and have been reading the ULTIMATE REALITY were of all the things that in my short space of time searching I feel that this particular book sounds like the closest to what happens when one passes over.

I have been on and of this site for a few years and has you can see with my number of posts im more of a reader then poster but go to the Manchester United F.C. sites and you will see that its the opposite ;). I think one of reasons for this is yes i know that one writes in english and I can read it but to understand this whole concept is completely well let me put it this way mind blowing.

The one thing that im slowly begining to understand is this brief system thing and like i said of all the books and its not many that i have read my brief system is closet to the Ultimate Reality.Ok Christans believe in something else Heaven and Hell and other religions have there brief systems. However maybe its from my back ground of none church going and the friends and family that i associate with that most of this people that i know ,maybe hope theres something else but are intuned to there 5 senses believe that this is the one chance you get so drink eat and be bloody merry for tomorrow may not arrive.

The question in a long winded way is if a person has no religious briefs or any brief systems fullstop if that person has no thought that once the last breath is finished there is nothing else and his/her brief system believes this is this the end for that soul. Or are these the souls that are retrived by Bruce and others. Thanks Manchester United for the league.

tgecks wrote on Nov 15^th, 2007 at 10:39am:

Well it seems almost diabolical to mention Deppak at this point.... but here I go. I had the great good fortune too sit with Deepak Chopra on a plane trip, and we talked for the entire six hour flight. He would be the first one to tell you that he is also a student here, just as we are, and he is fumbling along just like the rest of us. His paradigm is Ayurvedic and blended with his western medical education, and it was a fasciating flight. He is a humble and generous man who would, like Christ, tell you that he is nothing that you are not. What he is, you are. What he can do, you can do. This and more will you, too, do. And all the rest of it is blah-blah-blah...... There is only one of us here. But there is only one of us there, too. Just my 2 cents worth.... Thomas

Wow that most of been some flight. I feel if he even cane this side of Africa i would go to one of his meetings

Nick

Eternal Essence:

It isn't a matter of speaking about "my truth." To be frank, that is such a new agey thing to say. People tend to use such a way of thinking when they are more interested in having truth be what their ego wants it to be, rather than being interested in finding out what truth actually is.

If Christ is in fact a key part of divine reality, then it isn't a matter of opinion, no matter how hard some people insist that it is. People can try to deny Christ's relevance all they want, but his relevance doesn't go away simply because for whatever reason they find it inconvenient or threatening to acknowledge it.

When I've had experiences and received messages about Christ, they weren't presented to me in a manner of "if this is the truth you want, then here you go." They were presented to me in ways that showed that I was being shown "what truth is" not what is preferential.

Regarding  NDEs, I didn't state that NDEs without Christ are invalidated by NDEs with Christ. I believe it is very possible for a person to have a genuine NDE without the presence of Christ being involved. What I said is that NDEs with Christ can't be reduced to some sort of imaginary experience, simply because some people have NDEs without Christ. There are NDEs where people experienced Christ not because of their pre-existing belief system, but because this is what the divine powers that be wanted to reveal to them.

It isn't a matter of speaking about "my truth." To be frank, that is such a new agey thing to say. People tend to use such a way of thinking when they are more interested in having truth be what their ego wants it to be, rather than being interested in finding out what truth actually is.
Well, new agey or not, it is what it is. Your ego is yours, so go find your truth or whatever. There are some here who journey just fine, as I am sure you are finding out. Obviously, this is another attempt to -- to be frank -- to reduce anything that is said in contrast to you to something that you consider beneath you, which involves the ego, as you have said. At this point, any further discussion would silly. So, I can end it there, quite happily, still parked where I had been, but enjoying the scenery.

"If Christ is in fact a key part of divine reality, then it isn't a matter of opinion, no matter how hard some people insist that it is. People can try to deny Christ's relevance all they want, but his relevance doesn't go away simply because for whatever reason they find it inconvenient or threatening to acknowledge it." Well, this is the expression of your opinion. Also, whose threatened? I'm actually quite happy at this point and don't feel threatened by anything you have said at all. Maybe someone else on the board is, but that's them. I'm sure they will be okay. As to the possible validity of the idea you present: It's great to ponder its possible validity in the scheme of things.

When I've had experiences and received messages about Christ, they weren't presented to me in a manner of "if this is the truth you want, then here you go." They were presented to me in ways that showed that I was being shown "what truth is" not what is preferential. But that's your opinion of how you perceived it. I accept that has valid for you and glad you had such an exciting tale to tell afterward.

Regarding  NDEs, I didn't state that NDEs without Christ are invalidated by NDEs with Christ. I believe it is very possible for a person to have a genuine NDE without the presence of Christ being involved. What I said is that NDEs with Christ can't be reduced to some sort of imaginary experience, simply because some people have NDEs without Christ. There are NDEs where people experienced Christ not because of their pre-existing belief system, but because this is what the divine powers that be wanted to reveal to them. Thanks for the clarification.

E.
[smiley=engel017.gif]

recoverer (Albert? Bert?  Al?  What's your preference?):

Your comments are some of the most discerning on this site in quite a while.  Early Christianity identified Jesus as the "Word" (Greek: Logos).  "Logos" means the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability.  As the Logos, Christ conveys His presence primarily in terms of the "rich feel" of His PUL and graces, not in terms of His physical identity.  

The earthly Jesus taught that true spirituality is better caught than taught.  For this reason, Jesus teaches in archetypally profound parables which He does not explain to outsiders.  He wants His hearers to project themselves into the dynamics of His stories and discern their meaning for themselves.  In my view, the Being of Light in NDEs is always Christ when it radiates PUL to the patient.  Christ's preferred procedure is the same as it was during His earthly ministry.  He ideally wants patients to discern His identity rather than to be "sledge-hammered" with it.  Once Jesus is discerned, He often explicitly confirms this identity even to atheists like Howard Storm and, rarely, to Muslims and Jews.  But we know very little about His criteria for explicit self-identification.  

Basic Christian doctrine is absolute truth, but what this means has not been rightly grasped.  Doctrines are merely tools to facilitate a higher state of loving consciousness that God approves.  The Bible implies that this state of consciousness can be achieved apart from formal profession of faith in Christ.  This paradox helps explain Christ's two seemingly inconsistent statements to Howard Storm during His NDE:

(1) "Question: Which is the best religion?"  Answer: "The religion that brings you closest to
    God (73)."  
(2) "No one will go to God except through the atonement of Christ, the love of Christ, and the
    way of Christ...But...Christ reaches to all people everywhere in all time, space, heaven,
    and hell (67)."

As the rational self-expression of God, Christ manifests under various images, identities, and myths to sentient beings in all cultures and planets with intelligent life comparable to our own, according to Storm's NDE Jesus.  Anti-Christian astral projectors like Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Robert Bruce freely admit that they have been unable to explore certain lofty astral realms.  NDEs like psychiatrist George Ritchie's suggest that astral explorers are denied access to Christ if their core attitude is not receptive to His vibration.  Like Storm, Swedenborg experiences Christ as THE dominant presence in the higher heavens.  New Age astral explorers need to open their hearts to the glorious possibility of direct encounters with Christ's vibration.  How sad it is that Monroe, Moen, and Robert Bruce don't even seem open and intellectually curious enough to make the effort.  

Don

Don said:
" New Age astral explorers need to open their hearts to the glorious possibilty of direct encounters with Christ's vibration.  How sad it is that Monroe, Moen, and Robert Bruce don't even seem open and intellectually curious enough to make the effort."

What arrogance.  How could you know how open or not these individuals were/are to Christ's vibration?  How many astral or other experiences have each had,  and how many of those results are you truly aware of?  Ah, but it does concern you that some have explored the Heavens, found versions of them, like Focus 27, but that they were not sectioned off by a "I am the light and the way" gate - without which you could not gain entrance.

I am always curious, why it is better to develop a personal relationship with Christ, than with God and the universe.  Everything I've read suggests that an earthly name could not have any major relevance compared with following the main precepts of love of God and love of one's fellow man.  Most spiritual people understand that holding onto earthly things, ego-based things are a hindrance to spiritual progression.  In the end this includes, bodies, possesions, and yes names.

How then would it be to identify Christ as PUL?  Why is it important to use the name Christ, and know him that way, when he was simply "I am that I am" to the Hebrews (and to the earthly Jesus as a rabbi).  

Why are spiritual seekers somehow "missing the point," if they revere God, love and PUL without personalizing God as Jesus of Nazareth?  Even your mentor, Don, Swedenborg warns that Christians who believe in a true trinity but don't fuse father/son/holy spirit into one, never really attain true union with God.  

For me, spirituality rises above "us vs. them," above culture and ritual.  And I suppose, I would add that true spirituality rises above my placing one name of form of God (mine or my religion's) above others.   I feel that the teachings of the New Testament are beautiful, and even as a Jew by birth, I resonate with the truths found therein about love.

Heaven is found in experience, not in study alone.  I do not believe Monroe/Moen/Bruce were all "closed off" from Christ's vibration, and somehow missed everything.  If they are true seekers, and good people, they will find their way to Heaven one way or another.  But what if Heaven is not what you presume it to be?  Will you still seek it?  

Matthew

Don:

Thank you for your kind words and I prefer Albert.


Doc:

I believe that Robert Monroe was a loving person and that Bruce Moen is a loving person. I believe they've made some important contributions to metaphysical knowledge.

Nevertheless, I wonder why neither of them wrote of having experiences with Christ, while others have. It is possible that Bruce met with the presence of Christ when he met with what he referred to as the planning intelligence. His exploratory partner Denise saw visions of Jesus when she met the planning intelligence and thought the name "planning intelligence" was too sterile. Perhaps Bruce's dislike for fundamentalist Christianity prevented him from making a connection between the planning intelligence and Christ. It may be that the divine powers that be understood that Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen would be reaching out to audiences who start to feel uncomfortable when the issue of Christ comes up. I used to be the same, until I decided to find out if there is another way to look at things.

Don suggested a possibility about how Christ plays a major role when he wrote the following:

Early Christianity identified Jesus as the "Word" (Greek: Logos).  "Logos" means the rational self-expression of God as opposed to God in His unknowability.  As the Logos, Christ conveys His presence primarily in terms of the "rich feel" of His PUL and graces, not in terms of His physical identity."

This reminds me of how the Gospel of John speaks. It also reminds me of what Howard Storm found out about Christ during his near death experience. That Christ is the part of God that created this and other universes. It also goes along with what Emanual Swedenborg stated, when he wrote that God, holy spirit and Christ are all one thing. Each of these views suggest that Christ might be the planning intelligence Bruce wrote of, and possibly even beyond.

One night before I went to bed I prayed and asked to have a dream which answered whether the above way of viewing Christ is true, and instead of having a dream I woke up in the middle of the night and was visited by the presence of Christ. This presence appeared as a flash of light that was much bigger and much more powerful than any of the spirit being flashes I've experienced before (they appear in such a way when one sees them through one's crown chakra). This presence felt more real than the physical World. It felt divine. It worked on my energetic system for about fifteen minutes in a manner that was beyond how my awakened kundalini has ever worked on me. Ever since the energetic pathway from my heart chakra to my crown chakra has been more clear, balanced and alive. It is almost as if an energetic pathway exists that serves the purpose of allowing Christ into our lives.

When my prayer was answered in such a way, I figured that regardless of how specifically Christ exists, he can be anywhere and in as many places as he wants to be.

If the above is considered, perhaps the meaning of the Howard Storm quote Don provided below is revealed:

2) "No one will go to God except through the atonement of Christ, the love of Christ, and the  
    way of Christ...But...Christ reaches to all people everywhere in all time, space, heaven,  
    and hell (67)."

I don't believe people have to be afraid that they are going to have to accept something they find repugnant when they move on to the World of spirit. The love they yearn for comes from the Christ principle spoken about above. I don't know how precisely, but the messages and experiences I've had have showed me that Jesus in some way represents the above principle. When I go to heaven I won't view him as an egotistical dictator.  I'll view him as a great leader and example who led the way and helped me immensely.

Please consider the possibility that there are some people who speak of Christ in the way they do not because they have negative opinions about people who follow non-Christian religions. It could be that they think of Christ in the above manner. A principle that existed long before this World or any of its religions existed. Certainly there is no reason to have hard feelings about a a man/spirit such as Jesus, who in some way represented and still represents this principle.

Hi Albert,

I am open to the possibility of encounters with Christ, but am also trying to be open to love and the truth wherever I find it.  In some ways, I do think that the insistence on saying that others who have found God are "missing something wonderful," if they don't identify the divine as Jesus are clinging to an earthly identity rather than a spiritual truth.  

I respect your epiphany as being real and true to you.  I became incensed at the comment I quoted from Don, and the smarmy certitude it radiated/implied, eventhough the astral adepts he mentioned may have had many experiences to which he was not privy.

If another gains insight into PUL and believe that God as a whole is love - if that love is manifest and present in a person as love of God and one's fellow man,  does it matter if an individual calls God, "God" or "Christ?"  I think, in a cosmic sense it is irrelevant.

Matthew

Doc:

To keep it simple, I believe God loves everybody, and if a person is a loving person,  this is true regardless of what he or she believes.

I don't write what I write about Christ in order to put people down.  I just like to suggest that if somebody wants to spiritually check out what Christ is about, the opportunity is there.



DocM wrote on Nov 15^th, 2007 at 5:45pm:

Hi Albert, I am open to the possibility of encounters with Christ, but am also trying to be open to love and the truth wherever I find it.  In some ways, I do think that the insistence on saying that others who have found God are "missing something wonderful," if they don't identify the divine as Jesus are clinging to an earthly identity rather than a spiritual truth.   I respect your epiphany as being real and true to you.  I became incensed at the comment I quoted from Don, and the smarmy certitude it radiated/implied, eventhough the astral adepts he mentioned may have had many experiences to which he was not privy. If another gains insight into PUL and believe that God as a whole is love - if that love is manifest and present in a person as love of God and one's fellow man,  does it matter if an individual calls God, "God" or "Christ?"  I think, in a cosmic sense it is irrelevant. Matthew

Berserk2 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2007 at 3:51pm:

Anti-Christian astral projectors like Robert Monroe, Bruce Moen, and Robert Bruce freely admit that they have been unable to explore certain lofty astral realms...  How sad it is that Monroe, Moen, and Robert Bruce don't even seem open and intellectually curious enough to make the effort.   Don

 Don, why do you say stuff like this, why the need to degrade?  First off, its not even true to begin with.   In Bob's first book, he talks about an experience with possibly "God's Son".   In his 2nd book, he shares a channeling session of one of his explorers or someone who attended the Gateway program, which quite clearly was the Christ, who even talks about the 2nd coming, and what this consciousness's nature is.    

 In the 3rd book, he talks about meeting He/She the some 1800 year old person whom his Greater self directed him to after asking to meet the most spiritually mature person living in his time/space cycle.    

 True, in none of these experiences, does he outright label these "Jesus" or "Christ", but if he was really anti-Christian, he wouldn't have shared these because its pretty obvious that he eventually found out exactly who and what this person is and was about.   Maybe he never fully knew or understood, from all perspectives, but he knew a chunk at least.

 Now Bruce...ok Bruce is anti Christian?   Come on, the guy was part of a Bible study group for awhile, one of the main tenets of his accounts is PUL which IS Christ, or an aspect of same.  As Albert said, there are connections made to Christ in relation to the Planning Intelligence in his last book.   He just doesn't outright call it that himself.    While i've wondered about this myself, it doesn't necessarily mean he is anti-Christian, maybe its more he is anti-Fundamentalist and knows how many people are turned off by the term--Christianity.   If one is trying to reach as many people as one can, one might decide to use general, non specific, and generic terms to describe such realities or beings.    

 Why is it so hard for you to understand that one of the reasons why a percentage of people don't like Christianity as a belief system, is partly because of the pushiness, fanaticism, and in some cases extreme negativity of those who have called themselves "Christian"?     Jesus, one Christian girl whom was supposedly my friend, said that i was being influenced by Satan because i believed in things like astrology, other lives, etc.   Yet, i had enough openness to attend a weekend retreat called TEC because while i didn't agree with many of THEIR beliefs or interpretations, i knew i could find real spirituality there in relating to others, opening up and learning not judge so much.  Yet, i get labeled all kinds of negative things after, when i shared some of my beliefs with some of these who called themselves my 'friends'.    

 This is the kind of super common, super judgmental, super fear based crap that has turned so many off from Christianity.  It's really a shame, because its the exact opposite of what Christ himself wanted and wants for the world and for people.   He wants people to believe and  practice above all--PUL.   Sure, if someone actually opens up the personhood of Christ, and that particular "Disc" member who personified PUL, it can really facilitate positive changes, but all in all, its on us to grow and change.


 I consider your words against Bruce, Monroe, as false and ignorant accusations.   When YOU get to the level of Christ yourself, then, then my friend can you act as if you know the hearts and minds of others so well.  Because he did and spoke from a deep knowingness.  Do you?  

  Nor am i blindly defending Bruce or Monroe, in fact i'm one of the few here who have publicly disagreed with some of the things that Bruce talks about.  I'm not a Moen/Monroe groupie like some i've observed here.   And i've pointed out what i perceive as the belief system distortions of Monroe as well.    But, i'm here because my guidance has repeatedly confirmed in various ways that Bruce is the real deal, and one of the better/more balanced sources of spiritual info out there today, and while he is not perfected like Christ, much of what he teaches is akin to what Christ taught.   This counts for so much, if you would but open your eyes and ears a bit more.   Would that you knew Christ/Yeshua is himself cheering Bruce and his good works on.

 And as far as "lofty astral realms" what the hey would you call the Planning Intelligence consciousness that Bruce directly communed with?   2nd rate, lower astral planes?

Aren't we all "a key part of divine reality" in some way? I mean if we are all "one" at some level, as people often say...

So, why not "the Christ" as much as anyone else...

Recoverer - who/what is he in your view: a being like any of us, according to common thinking here, with an immortal soul and having had many incarnations etc? (but perhaps now having achieved a state similar to that supposed to have been achieved by/described by  the Buddha); a certain kind of force or energy you can attune to; a particular level of awareness, as when people talk of "Christ consciousness"; a certain "facet" of God/the "all"?/ a being somewhat similar to an angel, who incarnated once bring a special message.....?

Another option would be just a culturally-determined name for the loving and personal aspect of God, that others call Krishna etc; but it doesn't sound like you would agree with that

Orlando:

On the one hand I believe that Jesus is a role model so we can all reach the level of spiritual attainment he has reached. Whether all of us do so, I don't know.  Bruce Moen wrote that some probes/selves never find their way back to their divine source, because they just won't open to PUL. When this happens such a self eventually degrades rather than existing eternally in a negative state of mind. I haven't found out through my own experiences if this is true.

Regarding Jesus playing a more key role than somebody such as Krishna, I say this because this is what my experiences have told me. These experiences have occurred in a manner that is hard to doubt.

I am not able to say why this is the case. I don't believe it is a matter of Jesus having a holier than thou attitude. One possibility is that as one of my earlier posts suggests, Jesus was the physical personification of the Christ principle, which is the principle through which God manifests himself/creates existence (not really "him"), and the principle through which all of us return to God.

It is also possible that Jesus is a man who obtained oneness with the Christ principle, during a time period in which it was significant for somebody to do so.  Perhaps because he was the first man to do so, or a man who did so during a significant time period of time, God, the creator, what ever name one uses, decided to have Jesus play a key role that would benefit the human race.

I know some people have a hard time of thinking of God as somebody who makes decisions in such a way.  However, even Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen who don't speak in Biblical terms, wrote about a creator. Robert wrote that this creator has a definite plan, and makes adjustments according to need.

I don't believe a person can judge if a person/spirit such as Jesus Christ can play a more key role than others, according to a perspective that has some negative feelings towards him because of how he has been associated with fundamentalism.  When I had my night in heaven experience and found that he does play a key role, in a manner that was clear yet allowed me the freedom of mind to be surprised that this is so, it didn't feel as if his leadership role is a prohibitive thing.

A part of me has blunt feelings about this matter. What right do any of us have to tell God whether or not he has the right to decide if Jesus Christ will play a significant role in human spiritual history? Especially since God is the source of all wisdom, love and our ability to exist. I suppose if a person wants, he or she can be contemptuous about it and rebel against God's chosen way of doing things, even though God has provided each of us the with opportunity to live in perfection for all of eternity. But where will a person/spirit end up if it makes such a choice?  Isolated from the love and light of God not because God forced them to make such a decision, but because they listened to the confusion of their ego and supposed that it knows better than God who sees the entire picture.


orlando123 wrote on Nov 16^th, 2007 at 2:47pm:

Aren't we all "a key part of divine reality" in some way? I mean if we are all "one" at some level, as people often say... So, why not "the Christ" as much as anyone else... Recoverer - who/what is he in your view: a being like any of us, according to common thinking here, with an immortal soul and having had many incarnations etc? (but perhaps now having achieved a state similar to that supposed to have been achieved by/described by  the Buddha); a certain kind of force or energy you can attune to; a particular level of awareness, as when people talk of "Christ consciousness"; a certain "facet" of God/the "all"?/ a being somewhat similar to an angel, who incarnated once bring a special message.....? Another option would be just a culturally-determined name for the loving and personal aspect of God, that others call Krishna etc; but it doesn't sound like you would agree with that

orlando123 wrote on Nov 16^th, 2007 at 2:47pm:

Another option would be just a culturally-determined name for the loving and personal aspect of God, that others call Krishna etc; but it doesn't sound like you would agree with that

Hi Orlando, i don't know how true it is in reality, but i've heard that some of the Hindu faith believe that Krishna was an earlier incarnation of Christ.   If we put that in Monroe/Moen speak, then this might translate to Yeshua and Krishna are both selves directly connected to the same Greater self, or what Bruce calls a Disc, or Monroe called an I/There.

Again, i don't even know if this is true, if some Hindu's actually believe this or not, nor do i know if it is true beyond that.   Cayce's guides listed a bunch of Yeshua's Greater self other life projections, such as Amelius, Adam, Melchizedek, Zend, Enoch (who may be the Hebrew equivalent of the Egyptians Thoth character), both Joseph and Joshua of the O.T., a scribe also named Yeshua, a musician named Aspha (i believe), and in one reading seemed to hint that this Greater self expressed some 30 lives in the physical Earth.   It seems many of his lives were near enlightened or completely transcended space/time.    

Cayce's source also stated that this Greater self, this "Disc" has influenced either directly or indirectly, every major belief system which espoused the Oneness of all force.   They said that when the Buddha meditated, he communed with the Christ Spirit who was helping him out.  Cayce source says he has come in almost every Age where a reorientation back to Source and Love was needed (seems to come a lot at the beginning of new ages).  

  The whole concept of "Christ" can be confusing, because there different levels or perspectives of it, which i've found to be all true at the same time.   Perhaps one doesn't like the term "Christ", then maybe they could use the term Bruce coined, the Planning Intelligence Consciousness and Disc.   Cayce's source outlined the various aspects of Christ, saying that Christ was a Universal pattern relating to Love, Light, and Oneness waiting to be awakened within all Souls, it was a Spirit/Soul entity who first returned to Source and became the Co Creator of this Universe (and of many Souls within it), and that Yeshua was a direct self projected out of this Greater self or Disc.    

 It is potentially kind of mind boggling to realize that all the above is true at the same time.   It took me awhile to find this out, and even longer to fully accept it.   Thankfully i was raised in an environment with very little pushing of organized beliefs, which was pretty laid back and open in that area.  Otherwise, i probably would have rebelled against all of Christianity and Christian thought like so many who have been shoveled same have.    It also helped that even when i was a young kid, i thought about and loved the Creator, and especially so after i hit puberty.  My first introduction to more organized belief systems were to primarily Eastern ones, such as Three Pillars of Zen, Autobiography of an Yogi, etc. as well as studying astrology .    

 Since then, i've found many holes, imbalances, and incomplete knowledge within such beliefs, teachings, and i've learned that many guru's and teachers of Eastern thought weren't as near as enlightened as they wanted others to believe, and that some, quite a few of them were ego maniacs who ended up hurting a lot of people.   This is true, of course, of most Western thought too, that its imbalanced, has holes, errors, false and destructive teachers, etc. within it.   This is part of the reason why i liked the Cayce readings so much, because in them we find a melding, a marriage of the two more so than in many beliefs i've studied, and not taught by a Guru claiming he was enlightened, but channeled through a man who just said essentially "i do my best, and try to live by my spiritual principles, test the readings and the info out for yourselves and don't take my or their (the guides who communicated) words."   And he charged so little for his service, and in many cases didn't charge at all.  Nor did he claim that the readings where infallible.  

 It was a refreshing attitude at a time when Theosophists like Blavatsky had claimed so much, with so little holistic verification (holistic meaning physical proofs, as well as mental and spiritual  "resonation" on a personal, individual level).   It is still a refreshing attitude and approach...perhaps even more in today's New age, Guru, and so many trying to make quick and easy buck off others world we now live in.   Monroe was similar, and Bruce is similar which is part of why i like them and their info so much as well.   Neither Monroe, nor Bruce ever claimed that they were fully enlightened/God realized yet, nor that their info is infallible.  

 Anyways, i think i'm gonna shut up for awhile, and take a break from this site, because Bruce originally created this site with the intention that it would be a meeting place mostly for people to share their direct nonphysical experiences, explorations, and insights about their explorations--not to debate, talk about, or intellectually masturbate more organized belief systems.   I'm one of those, who seems to kind of keep it off track since i don't do a lot of conscious exploration right now.   At least not in the sense that Bruce seems to mostly stress, which is more sensory based/oriented nonphysical perception.    

 Thanks to all for listening.  I'll be around here and there.