I quote from Betty Eadie's description of her NDE: “At the time of death, we are given the choice to remain on this earth until our bodies are buried or to move on, as I did to the level to which our spirit had grown (“Embraced by the Light,” 83).”
___________________________________________________________________________

COMMENTS: I suspect that Betty is mistaken in limiting the duration of this choice to the burial ceremony.  50% of Americans and 48% of the British report ADCs within the first year of a loved one’s death.  

Obviously, many souls are so enthralled by the anticipation of their heavenly abode that they pass up the gloomier opportunity to linger “below” and tune in to the ghastly fate of their corpse and the depressing grief of their earthly loved ones.  Of those who decide to linger behind, many might not have the knowledge, skill, or temperament to contact surviving loved ones in a convincing fashion. The availability and quality of spirit guides may vary greatly depending on the spiritual development of the newly deceased.  Spirit guides may be assigned on the basis the compatibility of their own belief system with that of the newly deceased.

As a minister, I held Carol’s hand as she passed into eternity.  I had alerted her friends on the death watch to the possibilities of an ADC.  To my knowledge, only her boyfriend Chad received such a contact.  The day after the funeral, he heard a woman’s voice shouting his name, while he was alone in his house.  Apparently, a discarnate Carol was trying different types of contact without success and a powerful mental “yell” was the only form of contact that worked for her.  I would have expected her best friend Cathy to receive an ADC from Carol.  Cathy had quit her job to take care of a dying Carol for two months.  But Cathy was more skeptical than Chad and only Chad had prior psychic experiences.  I suspect that Chad was the only “receiver” adequately attuned to Carol to receive a modest ADC.

[Emanuel Swedenborg (ES) was perhaps the most gifted astral explorer who ever lived.  I will quote extensively from his magisterial book "Neaven and Hell:"]“There are some who protect new spirits, just arrived from the world from the attacks of evil spirits (HH 194-95).”
__________________________________________________________________________
COMMENTS: Preliminary hellish experiences are a rather common and terrifying variation of NDEs.  According to ES, only a few discarnate spirits accept the assignment of protecting new arrivals from such attacks.  Vulnerability to such attacks may be an important factor in limiting ADC contact. Spirit guides may vary in their attitudes to the safety and desirability of ADCs and in their capacity to effectively diffuse such attacks.

[ES:] “In the spiritual world, one person is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance.”
___________________________________________________________
These principles operate in the absence of spatial reality in the afterlife and apply to social interactions in the heavens.  But the same principles probably apply to the newly dead who want to contact their bereaved earthly loved ones. In the fear and confusion of the initial disembodied state, the requisite focus or intense desire for contact with the living may be sabotaged.  Also, the right type of psychic attunement is essential for ADCs.  Any “reluctance” on the part of one party can prevent such ADCs from occurring or from being recognized as ADCs.  This reluctance might have many causes.  The earthly loved ones may be skeptical about postmortem survival, or at least, about the possibility of ADCs.   Newly discarnate souls may be torn between a desire to reassure loved ones and a longing to discover their future abode and fate.  This ambivalence might subtly undermine the intensity of the focused attention needed for ADCs.  Many fundamentalist loved ones might be reluctant out of fear that ADCs are forms of spirit impersonation from demonic entities.

[ES:] “There can be many people appearing together in one place as long as they agree, but as soon as they disagree, they vanish.”
__________________________________________________________
COMMENT: Many ADCs between spouses may be prevented by subtle disagreements about what is possible and desirable.  The requisite “agreements” may include subtle psychic attunement and compatibility that presently elude precise specification.  At least one party may not be psychically gifted or open enough to discern such a postmortem contact.  

[ES:] “There are some who attend to people in the lower earth (HH 391)."
__________________________________________________________
COMMENT: The role of guardian angel is merely one of many roles that those in the Heavens can play and apparently discarnate spirits play just one vocational role at a time.  There are well-defined roles for which we receive training in Heaven.  According, to ES, only a few are well suited for the role of guardian angel and volunteer for this vocation.

Don

Thanks for that great information... If, you go to greaterreality.com Craig Hogan a highly Scholar, says that most adc's say there is no hell ...

peace and love

Actually, most ADCs don't address the reality of Hell at all.  Cardiologist Maurice Rawlings has interviewed many, many patients immediately after their NDEs.  About 50% of their experiences are reportedly hellish.  Rawlings tellingly anticipates the objection that most other NDEs are very positive.  He points out: (1) Most NDEs are voluntarily reported.  People are understandably reluctant to report hellish NDEs for fear of casting aspersions on their own character.  (2) In most cases, the patients who report hellish NDEs immediately suppress the memory of them because they are too painful to recall.  Yet during their clinical death, they describe these negative NDEs in chilling detail.  Dr. Sabom is also both a cardiologist and NDE researcher and doesn't confirm Rawlings' percentage.  True, 50% may not be an accurate percentage, but the frequency and reality of hellish experiences should not be doubted.  Besides, there is widespread agreement among astral adepts of contradictory ideologies that hellish experiences and realms do exist: e. g. the Bible, Swedenborg, Bruce Moen, Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce.  The visions of hell seem relatively coherent in their references to a tragic realm in which souls are attracted on the basis of the principle like attracts like.  Of course, there is disagreement on how the hellish planes fit into the grand scheme of postmortem survival and progress.

Don

I've had some experiences which have told me that lower realms do exist. People end up there not because they are being punished, but because of their overall energetic (the like attracts like thing Don spoke of). I've had experiences which made it clear that a spirit can move to a higher level, if they choose to do so. One experience made the point of stating that nothing can stop a person/spirit from moving towards God, if they choose to do so. Of course, you can't have your cake and eat it. ;)

Don-

First and foremost, WELCOME BACK!  Great to see you here again, why the long absence?

Re your post-

[ES:] “In the spiritual world, one person is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired.  Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance.”

If true, this doesn't bode well for Bruce's phone device to the afterlife.

R

P.M. Atwater studied over 3,000 experiences, and found that one out of seven people had a negative experience.  Negative experiences sometimes ended on a positive note. She found that they occur because people have issues with fear, guilt, anger or some combination. She found that people who had negative experiences had the experiences they needed in order to benefit from them.

I believe it is possible that light beings from the spirit World play a part in the kind of experience a person has.  Their ability to influence a person's experience can be limited by what the person having an NDE will open his or herself to. We're never alone. We just cut ourselves off at times.

Some experiencers serve the role of messenger. Not everybody is open to the same message, so messages are tailored for different audiences.  It seems the key message when it comes to people who play the role of messenger, is the importance of love.

Don is back!  Awesome.  I for one will stick around to be reading what he has to say.

Quote:

This reluctance might have many causes.  The earthly loved ones may be skeptical about postmortem survival, or at least, about the possibility of ADCs.

i'm not disagreeing with you on this point, but i'd like to point out it's not true in every case.  i myself am waiting for an ADC from a deceased relative, and have had none... and as my presence on this site may imply, i'm a firm believer in afterflife survival and ADC's.  i'm very curious myself as to the reason i have not been contacted, though the stories in "hello from heaven!" have people receiving contacts as far as around 15 years after a death, so they can happen at any time...

about negative experiences - it's interesting how some afterlife explorers like bruce say we create our own reality with our thoughts.  could it be that the NDErs simply THINK they MIGHT go to hell and their mind instantly creates that reality??

Greetings,

Aren't all these' attunement issues', the 'reluctances', and 'subtle disagreements' just descriptions of a lack of PUL?   Wouldn't they be solved when enough PUL is generat--emanated?
Our host Bruce Moen has provided the answer, but it doesn't seem to get much acknowledgement.

Or if PUL is too sentimental, when we visualize these predicaments as energy patterns, we see the reluctance is holding back energy, disagreement is conflicting energies, etc.  Attunement is the only other emanating energy and it adds a sense of harmonizing which is good.

Just trying to put it all into context.

Bets

Don-

Re. the various reasons why ADC doesn't happen, I thought about the remarkable ADC event told by Telly Savalas.

That event  (http://www.underworldtales.com/telly.htm) seems to have happened in spite of the obstacles you cite.  

I sometimes think there really are no clear-cut reasons that argue either for or against an ADC occurring.  In theory, at least, Savalas should never have had that experience.

Roger,

As you know, the ADCs of Telly Savalas and my parishioner, Leonard, are as spectacular as any ADCs in history.  I assume that both cases met certain conditions, some of which we can grasp and others which we cannot.  For example, Leonard told me about earlier spectacular psychic experiences that were impressive in their supernatural character., but he never shared the details with me.   He was apparently psychically gifted, and so, might have been uniquely attuned to his deceased son's " vibration."  You seem to assume that Telly was an unlikely candidate for his ghostly encounter.  But is it not possible that Telly, like Leonard,  was uniquely gifted psychically?  Also, two Greek guys (Savalas and Agannis) might have been uniquely attuned for ethnic and cultural reasons as well as for spiritual compatibility.  Note also that both were outdoors when they were coping with an emotionally difficult situation--the unexpected death of a son and a car out of gas in an torrential rainstorm.  Certain types of emotional shock can stop the mind from censuring possibilities and generate an unconscious longing for a romantic escape from discomfort and anxiety.  Such speculation cannot explain uniquely bizarre paranormal events.  But beneficiaries of such ADCs should be examined more closely for clues to unknown conditions that they unwittingly satisified to  enhance their role as psychic "receivers."  

For example, when I am about to have a powerfully clairvoyant experience, I notice subtle alterations in my state of mind.  Such experiences almost always "sneak up on me" and take me by surprise.  They never happen when I intensely desire them and unwittingly try to make them happen.  Wishful thinking is the enemy of psychic power.  On the other hand, it seems essential to be immersed in the right kind of meditation on a problem crying out for resolution.  

For example, I was walking down Oak St., unconsciously musing over a pastoral problem.  Seniors from nursing homes were supposedly being denied food and medication simply because they attended my church and showed up late for lunch at the nursing home.  Suddenly, I felt a gentle urge to walk back and enter a Christian book store that held no interest for me.  I did so, and found myself unintentionally explaining my problem to the salesman.  It turned out that his wife was in charge of feeding nursing home patients and providing their medications.  My problem was quickly solved.  I had no reasons to share my problem with the book salesman and no reason to imagine that he wuold care or be in a position to help me.              

This experience is very typical of how I receive divine guidance.  Though I have prayed about the problem, I am not consciously engaged with the problem in an anxiety-producing, intense manner.  I am not currently TRYING to solve the problem.  Rather, the problem is "on the backburner" of my mind and I am unusually open to inrrational impulses.  I am willing to feel foolish by acting on these impulses.  That 's the state of mind I find conducive to divine intervention.  There are many other elusive distinctions between wishful thinking and the quiet confidence of mountain-moving faith, distinctions that I am currently unable to articulate.  But when I'm in a psi-conducive state, I think, "Oh yeah, so that's what it's like!  I'll try to tune in the subtle affective shades that make the decisive difference."  Wanting it too badly can guarantee that you never have the experience!

Don

Hi Berserk,

Your experience in the bookstore sounds like it proves that our human will power
is less power and more a gentle force. You weren't forcing any process and your
ego had no investment in the problem at the moment, but your intent was to get
a solution.
I think our culture, developed by our egos, has put too much emphasis
on the idea that power, such as will power, requires force.
You certainly did influence the outcome!

Bets

Bets,

Here's another example.  Jasmine and her husband Ed are a very poor couple.  Jasmine has serious health issues--a pre-cancerous condition that requires major surgery and a heart defect that causes her to faint almost daily.  In fact, she recently passed out and fell down 3 flights of stairs, badly bruising her whole body, and later fainted and fell off her porch on to her concrete driveway. More painful bruises!  I visited her and laid hands on her for healing. I wanted to help so badly but felt only a sense of hopelessness after my prayer.  Then I learned that she could not get a ride to her doctor in Spokane.  In her despair, she was contemplating suicide.  When she finally did get a ride to her doctor, he informed her that her heart condition was incurable and that she would just have to live with it.  He gave her a cane to blunt her falls.  This was obviously of very little help.  So I visited her again to lay hands on her.  This time my wishful thinking was blunted by the prior ineffectiveness of my prayer and the hopeless medical prognosis.  So I just relaxed and surrendered to whatever might happen.  When I prayed for Jasmine this time, I was oddly relaxed and unfettered by any expectations.  Paradoxicallly, I sensed an unexpected confidence that that this prayer was more effective.  6 weeks later, Jasmine has not passed out since that prayer!  Clearly, I was less ego-invested and anxious during that prayer.   But I'm also acutely aware that I am incapable of adequately articulating the imparted quiet confidence that took me by surprise as I laid hands on her this second time.

Don

P.S. I have changed her name to protect her privacy.

That's wonderful, Don!

You are a more open channel for the Divine than I knew before!  
although it seems like calling it your 'wishful thinking' is a bit
disrespectful of the Power operating through you  ;).

You're really doing Good!

Bets

The spirits I communicate with on a regular basis, are spirits I didn't know as humans. Going by their knowledge level and what they are capable of, they haven't been human for some time.

I'm in touch with these spirits all the time, even though I don't communicate with them all the time.  Here's an example that Don's book store experience reminds me of, even though the issue at had wasn't as important. Yesterday I was walking in my office. A stop sign was shown to me. This caused me to slow down. Right then a lady came walking realy quick around the corner. If I hadn't of slown down, we would of crashed into each other. Despite how this lady walks quickly, she has a bad back. It probably wouldn't had been good if we crashed into each other.

Here's another example. My spirit guidance uses Volkswagens (VWs) as a symbol for volition/willpower. One day I was driving home from work and wondering how I could overcome a limiting mental tendency. I heard a thought/voice say, "look behind you." I looked in my rearview mirror and there was a VW.  I don't look in my rearview mirror very often, and had no idea the VW was there.

This is how the VW thing started. One day my guidance showed me a bright green car and a little bright yellow volkswagon. The volkswagon drove head on into the larger green car, merged completely without any damage taking place, and right after doing so the green car took off and drove way. I understood that the yellow car stood for willpower because this is the color of our third willpower chakra, and I understood that the green car stood for love, because green is the color of our heart chakra. Hence, if I merge my willpower with love, I'll take off.

Here's a message that relates to helping people. I was speaking to a patient at a hospital. He used to be a drug addict, and he said he changed after he gave his life to Christ. I heard him say some things that sounded really fundamentalist. Even though I had made a pact to myself to not try to change what patients I visit believe, I started to do so with this man. Right away the left side of my face became fuzzy. Christ lets me know of his presence in this way. I got the clear message that Christ is taking care of this man in a way that suits him, and it is better that I don't intefere with this. The best thing I could do is simply share love with him.

Don-

There was one incident that happened to me wherein I think I know your feeling of "quiet confidence."  I had told this story before, but I'm reminded of it after reading your post.

The death of my dad was still very much on my mind.  I was at our summer cottage, reading a book and came to a passage about how adult male children have trouble dealing with their dad's death especially if there a lot of things left unsaid between them.

I stopped at that point, put the book down, feeling some sort of strange "connection" and looked into the yard where my dad's favorite tree, a beautiful red maple, was in its glory.  Suddenly at that point the phone rang and I somehow "knew" it was a signal from him or about him.  I picked it up, but just got silence at the other end.  

This was several years ago before phone solicitors were a problem in Canada.  It had never happened prior to this.

I would have written it off as just a coincidence were it not for the fact that I had this strange sensation just before it rang.  Like you said, it is very difficult to articulate.

Anyway, I echo what betson said.  You are definitely a caring and compassionate person.  It is wonderful that you are a minister with a congregation wherein you can apply this compassion to many others.

R

Hi don.You were talking about the laying on of hands to heal.I was looking at this healer,as he said he was.You might have seen him on tv.He has spring water that he gives the person he is healing.He came to this woman,who could not walk for years.he gives her the water to drink,than he shakes the liveing daylights out of her and slaps her on the head,than he almost strangles her.he tells her to stand up and walks.she not only walks,but begans to run all over the place.I do not beleive in this at all.What is your take on this.George.Nice to have you back don.

George:

I don't know, but basically I believe that spiritual healing is much more complicated that the incident you explained about.  I would think that even spiritual healing energy needs some time to make the changes that are necessary so a person who couldn't walk can suddenly run around.

Interesting enough, last night I was shown some visions of this type of activity, including this short brunet haired man (I don't know his name) who used to appear on TV a lot and do this sort of thing.


george stone wrote on Oct 31^st, 2007 at 2:50pm:

Hi don.You were talking about the laying on of hands to heal.I was looking at this healer,as he said he was.You might have seen him on tv.He has spring water that he gives the person he is healing.He came to this woman,who could not walk for years.he gives her the water to drink,than he shakes the liveing daylights out of her and slaps her on the head,than he almost strangles her.he tells her to stand up and walks.she not only walks,but begans to run all over the place.I do not beleive in this at all.What is your take on this.George.Nice to have you back don.

George,

That healer does not sound legitmate.  But sometimes we can learn important lessons about divine healing from unconventional methods.  One of the most famous and effective Christian faith healers was Smith Wigglesworth who ministered in the 1920s and 1930s.  One day a black lady with stomach cnncer waited in a healing line for prayer.  When Smith prayed for her, he angrily punched her in the stomach.  She got upset, punched him back, and stormed out.  That week she went to her doctor.  X-rays showed that that punch had healed her and her cancer was gone!  She sought out Smith, thanked him, and begged for his forgiveness.  His rage had been directed against the fact of her suffering and was therefore an expression of love and intense focus.  

In the Bible, a proud Syrian general Naaman has leprosy and travels far to seek healing from the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 5).  He senses Naaman's pride and deliberately angers him by refusing to come out to hear his request personally.  Then Elisha sends out a messenger to order Namaan to perform a demeaning ritual.  Naaman must immerse himself 7 times in the very muddy Jordan River in order to be "cleansed" of his leprosy.  Naaman's soldiers are so enraged that they want to execute Elisha.  They protest: "There are 2 larger and cleaner rivers back in Syria.   Why can't Namaan immerse himself in either of these instead?"  Finally cooler heads prevail.  A wiser soldier reasons: "If the prophet had asked you to do something really challenging, you would have gladly done it.  So why not this small, if demeaning, act?"  Naaman performs the ritual and is instantly healed and converted.  The anger evoked gave him the requisite focus, while, at the same time, freeing him from the wishful thinking and naval gazing that create anxiety and doubt.  In other words, like the black lady with cancer, Naaman had to be shocked into the right state of mind for healing.  That state of mind might be described as "open humble surrender."

Don                            

I’m in agreement that anger or other strong emotion can initialize or open a channel for powerful healing.  I like the way you describe the state of mind Don.  “Open humble surrender” To me that says it all.  It is by surrendering to God, or the Divine, which is above us, below us, and all around us, that we are brought to the divine within us wherefrom healing energy, flows.  

When I was a teenager my mom and I were assisting our dog have her babies.  The dog was having a difficult time and one of the babies was born dead and deformed.  My mom had an instant surge of emotional anger where she screamed out “no” as she held the puppy in the palm of her hand.  Just as she cried out she felt a surge of brilliant light and power go through her.  Sitting next to her I also felt it emanate from her.  Suddenly the puppy was not only alive, but no longer deformed.  

Good thread!  And good to read your posts again Don!  

Kathy

http://adcguides.com/afterlife12.htm
If, you actually go to greaterreality.com ... Those two sites are listing all the after-death communications that say there is no hell..  I'd trust after-death communications, over near-deaths any day...

peace and love

[briggsandurlacher: ] "http://adcguides.com/afterlife12.htm  If, you actually go to greaterreality.com ... Those two sites are listing all the after-death communications that say there is no hell.."
________________________________________________________________________

Those behind these websites make irresponsible generalizations without first doing their homework.  (1) Catholics did not invent the doctrine of Hell.  The Judaism of late antiquity taught a well developed doctrine of Hell as macabre as any Medieval Catholic speculation.  For example, just read 1 Enoch from 200 BC.  The Hells of Chinese Buddhism are as ghastly as any of the Medieval Catholic speculations.  (2) The claim that ADCs do not generally stress Hell overlooks the obvious question of whether the wicked hellbound would be willing or able to manifest to us in a positive way.  ADCs designate a wide umbrella of manifestations.  The ADCs of Ouija board communications routinely identity Hell as their place of origin.   Many case of possession are demonic.  But some of these malevolent ADCs have discarnate humans as their source.  And just where do you imagine these entities to reside?  

[B & U:] "I'd trust after-death communications, over near-deaths any day..."
__________________________________________________________________
More absurd is your claim that ADCs are more trustworthy than NDEs.  That's like saying nonfictional books are more reliable than TV news.   Each case must be examined on its own merits.  Most ADCs are of no evidential value to investigators.  Many NDEs are accompanied by impressive verfications.  e. g.
(1) accurate NDE descriptions of medical equipment, doctors, nurses, and even loved ones in
    hospital waiting rooms.  These descriptions often include what was said and done.  
(2) People born blind often see colors for the first time in their NDE visits to otherworldly
    vistas.  
(3) NDEs often disclose paranormal information about the future.  
(4) The figures encountered during NDEs are often unpredictable from the patient's religious
    or philosophical upbringing: e. g. atheists, Jews, and Muslims encountering Jesus;
    encountering unexpected deceased relatives rather than hallucinating living relatives.  

Your claim overlooks the independent verifications of the Hells encountered during NDEs from astral projection and OBEs.  Swedenborg's descriptions of his ADCs from Hell are macabre and graphic.  Swedenborg has more impressive verifications than almost any other ADCs.  Other astral explorers with widely different worldviews confirm that existence of hellish planes: e. g. Robert Bruce, Bruce Moen, and Robert Monroe.  There is widespread consensus from a variety of astral methods for the existence of Hells based on the principle of like attracts like.  The Bible was the first source to articulate this principle.  And I remind you that 2nd century Catholicism provides the earliest literary evidence for the doctrine of retrievals.  These retrievals rescue the hellbound!

Don

NDE's of hell are based off of what they expect to happen.. That is why I don't trust near deaths that speak of hell... Most Christians have hell and fire/brimstone hells just like it says in the bible.. Thoughts become real in the next life.. Then people that go into the next life choose hell and create it.. They don't want to move on and be forgiven or accept God's love.. So, they create their own self-created hell.. Don't you get that along I've been trying to say God never created hell.. WE DID and hell is a big illusion and a lie!! God will let us all move on if, we accept God's love and repent.. Otherwise were going to think were seperate from God and create hell..

God is apart of us alll.. So, how can there be a hell???

Oh and about people supressing things like seeing hell in their nde's, I'm pretty sure they can;'t forget that... No one can block out such a scene... I mean I agree, some nde's like that are not talked about, for fear of one's reputation.. I don't think people forget their hellish nde's though.. I know some people lie and say they had heavenly nde's, when they didn't... But honestly who could forget such a thing?? I had a terrible dream that I was in a hell of fire and demons all around and I still remember that dream..

peace and love

i think there are "hellish" realms... i just don't think there's anything like the christians teach - a hell of eternity, with satan tormenting you.  also, when these real "hells" are described, they aren't eternal, which i think would go a long way towards making them less... hellish.  

briggsandurlacher3:
You wrote: "NDE's of hell are based off of what they expect to happen"
If we take this as possible, we have to considerate then as well that other NDE experiences are based on expectations, too. We should not make a difference of credibility of NDEs from looking at the content, but more from the inner consistence, detailedness, meaning and effect on the person who had the NDE. Of course it would be good to have knowledge of the person's beliefs and such.
You wrote: "Oh and about people supressing things like seeing hell in their nde's, I'm pretty sure they can;'t forget that... No one can block out such a scene..."
 A part in the treatment of highly traumatized persons is to make them remember. It is very well possible to block those bad things.

In general, I think what Bruce teaches about the influence of our belief systems is quite reasonable. To take this in our consideration, and integrate it in our meditations is beneficial.

Spooky

The problem with saying something like:


Quote:

NDE's of hell are based off of what they expect to happen.. That is why I don't trust near deaths that speak of hell... Most Christians have hell and fire/brimstone hells just like it says in the bible.. Thoughts become real in the next life.. Then people that go into the next life choose hell and create it.

is that having hell be just a projection of a belief system would create an afterlife that is terribly unfair and makes a mockery of the real suffering of much of humanity.  Many people (especially here in the U.S.) live life selfishly and do not think about how they have treated others; life is like Disneyland, constantly.  While others are born into poverty, oppression, economic servitude, lack, genetic disease, and on and on, some people live like others are means to their end of their own pleasure and enjoyment.  The person who lives life without conscience will be the one who is most rewarded here and in the afterlife, if hell is not really a reality and is created by our own beliefs.  In other words, the people who deaden their conscience to others and live very selfishly will enjoy life at the expense of others here and also in the afterlife; they will give no thought to those who they have trampled along the way and there will be no justice for victims.

There are other problems as well:
 This ignores part of the 'like attracts like principle' that applies to people's character; yes it does seem to be based (at least in Bruce's writing) on beliefs somewhat but it is also based on character.  Max was in hell with other jerks like him because he was a jerk in life.  It may not be easy by any means for Max to disbelieve a belief system territory that he finds himself in.
 This ignores what Jesus said on the matter which means we have five options: Jesus was wrong, he was lying, he never talked about hell and was misquoted, he was a literary figure who never existed, or Jesus was right and this notion is incorrect.

Again, one last point - if I see a friend who is driving late at night, and I know the bridge is out and my friend doesn't, am I a fear monger if I yell at him to watch out because the bridge is out and he may have a calamitous fall?  Could you call a warning to someone a loving action?

Quote:

If we take this as possible, we have to considerate then as well that other NDE experiences are based on expectations, too.

well bruce said there are "christian" heavens where the christians live together and go to church and stuff, so apparently yes that is the case to a degree.  

something to consider - notice how people who have NDE's report seeing their loved ones as physical beings - NOT as a ball of light.  that right there shows how their human brain expectations leads them to see the souls in human form.  

spooky2 wrote on Nov 4^th, 2007 at 9:40pm:

briggsandurlacher3: You wrote: "NDE's of hell are based off of what they expect to happen" If we take this as possible, we have to considerate then as well that other NDE experiences are based on expectations, too. We should not make a difference of credibility of NDEs from looking at the content, but more from the inner consistence, detailedness, meaning and effect on the person who had the NDE. Of course it would be good to have knowledge of the person's beliefs and such. You wrote: "Oh and about people supressing things like seeing hell in their nde's, I'm pretty sure they can;'t forget that... No one can block out such a scene..."  A part in the treatment of highly traumatized persons is to make them remember. It is very well possible to block those bad things. In general, I think what Bruce teaches about the influence of our belief systems is quite reasonable. To take this in our consideration, and integrate it in our meditations is beneficial. Spooky

Yeah, that's what I mean what we expect to happen in the next life, is what we will get in return.. Thoughts become real in the next life..

[briggsandurlacher:] "NDEs of hell are based off what they expect to happen.   That is why I don't trust near-deaths."
___________________________

Atheists expect extinction upon their demise; and yet, they sometimes find themselves in a hellish plane in a frightening NDE.  For example, atheist Howard Storm found himself tortured and torn apart by demonic entities who initially greeted him in a civil manner.  

I recall an OBE adept who reported an OBE on this site that was so chilling he was reluctant to have any more OBES.  As in Storm’s case, he witnessed the spirit body of some hapless victim being torn apart by evil assailants.  Atheists often encounter Christ during their NDEs.  They typically react by saying, “But I don’t even believe in you!”  To this, Jesus typically replies: “But I DO believe in you.”  

On the all-night talk show, Coast-to-Coast, I was enthralled by an NDE expert’s collection of atheist NDEs.  That expert claimed that he investigated 3,000 Buddhist NDEs and found almost no cases in which the Being of Light identified itself as the Buddha (Siddartha Gautama).  I have issued a challenge for anyone to find a single example in which the Being of Light identified himself as Muhammad to Muslims.  Matthew responded to my challenge my e-mailing a New Age NDE expert who had collected thousands of NDE cases.  She could produce no examples of the Being of Light identifying himself as Muhammad.  But she did share a case of an NDE appearance of Christ to a Jewish woman, much to her consternation.   And I have posted about a radical Muslim cleric’s conversion to Christianity through a powerful and unexpected NDE appearance of Jesus in his hospital room.  The Muslim was cured of AIDs through his conversion experience!  

New Agers routinely and mistakenly impose their unwarranted doctrinal spin on the Being of Light encountered during NDEs.  They claim, “The Being of Light identifies Himself as Christ or God to Christians, as God to Jews, as Muhammad to Muslims, and as Buddha to Buddhists.”  The magisterial comparative study of Drs. Osis and Haraldsson of 1,000 NDEs in the USA and India demonstrated that the details of these NDEs routinely contradicted what one would expect from the patients’ cultural and religious backgrounds.

[b & u:] "God is part of us...So how can there be a hell?"
_______________________________________________

If you must blindly embrace a simple-minded New Age cliche that cannot even in principle be verified, then at least try to justify it in some way and consider the possiblity that standard theological phrasing might be more appropriate.  What is the standard phrasing?  God is the ground of our being.  As the ground and not the being itself, God can create free units who can make choices that are independent of God's preferences, i. e. unloving choices.  These free units of consciousness can even choose to ignore God's will and opt for a postmortem realm of consciousness in which they are radically separated from God in the sense that they lack awareness of God's love, grace, presence, and relevance.  This realm of separation from God is what most Christians and biblical teaching rightly imagine as hell.

[b & u:] Most "Christians have hell and fire/brimstone hells, just like it says in the Bible."
___________________________________________________________________________

Wrong!  Most Christians recognize hell as a mysterious self-chosen realm of separation from God.  The Bible speaks of hell as a place where many will be beaten with few stripes and will then, by implication, be released or retrieved. In the generation immediately after the New Testament age, hell was conceived as a "cold" realm.  Second century Catholics provide the first literary evidence in history for the concept of soul retrievals.  Many of these retrievals rescued souls from Hell.  This possibililty is well documented in the New Testament.  If I need to re-document all the evidence for this, I will be glad to do so again.  Meanwhile, please don't pontificate on subjects about which you know so little.

Don

Berserk2 wrote on Nov 6^th, 2007 at 4:56pm:

But she did share a case of an NDE appearance of Christ to a Jewish woman, much to her consternation.

 I'm not sure if this is the same case or not, but the one i read about, the Jewish woman described Christ as having reddish tinted hair.  I found this extremely interesting since Cayce's source many, many years ago also describe Yeshua in physical life as having reddish hair, and generally not looking like an average Hebrew.   The Shroud indications seem to somewhat support the latter conclusion as well, if it is the burial cloth of Christ.  

 But, even in NDE's, isn't there some contradictions to the descriptions of his actual looks when the person perceived Christ in both a Light, and almost physical sense too?  

That (tendency to appear during NDEs etc) might be a lot to do Don with the fact that (if I've got it right) traditional Christians are the only ones (?) who have actually deified their teacher, made him an independently existing singular and immortal God.

I'm not sure about what Islam teaches (but they seem to quite clearly separate and distinguish between God and the Prophet) but is it not the case that they see Muhummad as having been an enlightened human teacher of one sort or another?.

I've never heard anything that leads me to think that Buddhists would expect to somehow meet the Buddha - they conceive of him as having been just one of many emanations of the true nature of mind  (albeit one of a very few who having reached his level incarnated in a physical body) who in the form he lived is long dead. He's not (at this level of a single being) seen as having been an immortal God or anything like that.

The very many emanations (check here for one listing http://www.buddhanature.com/#adi)  correspond to the multiple aspects of (ultimately the only) mind there is. All can help us in working with our own mind.

Bear in mind as well that that principle (Buddha nature) is seen as not just a higher principle but as the ultimate nature of all of us. Go within and this is ultimately what you find. But you also find yourself.....

Vajra,

Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, but not God in the flesh.  You miss the point of the Muslim mullah's [Ahmed] NDE encounter with Jesus.  His encounter was so glorious that it converted him from Islam to Christianity, despite the fact that he hated Christians and wanted to kill the Christian couple who visited him in the hospitial and prayed for his healing!  

As for Buddhists not expecting an encounter with the Buddha, you overlook the important distinction between the Buddhism taught in the monasteries and the vulgarized Buddhism of the ordinary masses.  Buddhists do have dreams of the Buddha (e. g. Wang Chien-line's regular dreams of the Buddha in a Pure Land Buddhist text.  Also, Buddhists constantly depict the Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) in art and statues.  In the trauma of death, Buddhists encounter a greeting party like most Christians.  One would expect the Buddha to show up often.  But he doesn't.  Why not?  Also, remember that there is nothing in the Bible that predicts that, immediately after dying, Christians will be greeted by a Being of Light identifying Himself as Christ.  Christians expect to meet Christ later when they arrive in Heaven. Indeed, many conservative Christians believe that Christ's NDE appearance as the Being of Light is a demonic counterfeit experience!

Don

Don,

Then explain to me than why people have hellish nde's of hells of fire and brimstone with demons torturing people like  they did in the medieval times..??? Are you implying there is a hell like that created by God mr. smarty pants..??

peace

My thought Don was only that since so much energy and intensity have been poured into the idea of Jesus as God it as a concept must have become invested with enormous power (belief) over the years.

Meaning presumably that the Mullah might unintentionally whether as a result of some exposure or past life have tapped into this, with the outcome that you describe. (we can bring up lots that we'd consciously rather not)

But that's not necessarily an indication of the superiority or accuracy of any particular belief though.

On the Buddha. I wasn't suggesting that individuals don't dream of him, or that many ordinary punters don't see him as a deity. But the institutions do not teach this, and most certainly do not dictate  worship in the way institutional Christianity did of Jesus. (it'd be wholly in conflict with teaching) The Pure Land sect is similar as best i know.

So my suggestion was only that this as a result can't have the same power as the Jesus belief, which might  explain the differing NDE expereinces you mentioned. I'm unsure as to why it should be a matter of issuing challenges....

briggsandurlacher,

First, many hellish plains are perceived without fire imagery.  This is certainly true of some biblical texts about hell. Seocond, I never claimed that prior expectations have nothing to do with what is experienced in an NDE.  Clearly, preconceptions shape one's interpretations of the energies and vistas witnessed.  I was objecting to your oversimplification of the situation.  NDEs of atheists, for example, and many others routinely contain elements that are contrary to prior expectation and conditioning.

Third, in early Judaism and Christianity, "fire" is routinely used as a purification symbol.  The same communities that speak of hellfire also talk about how "cold" hell is.  The imagery is clearly figurative.  So what is the spiritual reality behind these perceptions?  The negative energies of the clashing minds of "lower" planes is often visually translated in terms of fire.  

Don