Hi i was watching a documentary about the turin shroud and i think it is genuine i believe it was the shroud that was placed around jesus after he was crucified ,their were a lot of proven facts about it which outweighied the disproven facts ,but it was commented that jesus was still alive when he he was taken down from the cross because jesus was only on the cross for 3 hours and it wasnt long enough time for him to die on the cross ,it was commented that it usually took up to about 5 days before someone died on the cross ,i dont believe this i believe that jesus died on that cross what does anyone else think to this love deanna

What I have read about the shroud is fascinating, Deanna, and convinces me that there is something very very special about it, if not spectacular.

Whether it was the shroud of Jesus I don't know.

love, blink :)

Hi blink i agree their is something very special about the turin shroud i really believe it was the same shroud that was used to cover jesus after his death god bless love deanna

Regarding the time it took Jesus to die, most people who were crucified didn't have stakes driven through their hands and feet. Since Jesus did, it is very possible he bled to death within a few hours.

Hi Deanna, hope it's OK to express an alternative but I think complementary view - one which contains a slight caution.

My personal take on stuff like the shroud is that while it's clearly a very wonderful artefact it's almost impossible to reach a point where genuineness is proven beyond doubt. The same sort of consideration surfaces around spiritual teachings, the bible and the like. We could spend our lives seeking certainty and never get anywhere.

The Buddha for example said probably 10% of what's taught in his name today.

But in the context of our personal situation and journey it maybe doesn't matter. Because we each live in a different reality. Because the nature of the path we are on is such that we each have to draw what 'truths' we intuitively feel make sense from our total experience in this reality (and that includes seeing stuff like the shroud and being exposed to teachings) and then go on and try to live them.

Point being that there's no absolutes in any of this game. Meaning that while we all draw strength and insight from  that which we feel to be genuine we can never know for sure. Meaning that it's maybe important that the positions we adopt always contain an element of fluidity or provisionality about  them.

Maybe maintaining that fluidity is one dimension of awakening,

We somehow never find a place where we can drive a permanent stake in the sand - we're all travellers, all on a journey and always evolving. Even the places we've ourselves been when subjected to subsequent higher understanding can look very different in retrospect...

wrote on Oct 10^th, 2007 at 8:08am:

Hi Deanna, hope it's OK to express an alternative but I think complementary view - one which contains a slight caution. My personal take on stuff like the shroud is that while it's clearly a very wonderful artefact it's almost impossible to reach a point where genuineness is proven beyond doubt. The same sort of consideration surfaces around spiritual teachings, the bible and the like. We could spend our lives seeking certainty and never get anywhere. The Buddha for example said probably 10% of what's taught in his name today. But in the context of our personal situation and journey it maybe doesn't matter. Because we each live in a different reality. Because the nature of the path we are on is such that we each have to draw what 'truths' we intuitively feel make sense from our total experience in this reality (and that includes seeing stuff like the shroud and being exposed to teachings) and then go on and try to live them. Point being that there's no absolutes in any of this game. Meaning that while we all draw strength and insight from  that which we feel to be genuine we can never know for sure. Meaning that it's maybe important that the positions we adopt always contain an element of fluidity or provisionality about  them. Maybe maintaining that fluidity is one dimension of awakening, We somehow never find a place where we can drive a permanent stake in the sand - we're all travellers, all on a journey and always evolving. Even the places we've ourselves been when subjected to subsequent higher understanding can look very different in retrospect...

 I believe i understand what you mean, and are trying to say, and i do agree with a lot of it.   I'm curious as to would you say that you have studied the SOT in depth?

 As far as what Buddha, or Yeshua actually said, or taught, i agree we don't have a complete picture by any means...  But, we are talking about an artifact which has had countless hours of scientific research, multi-faceted analyzing, and a lot of intelligent, scientific debate done on or related to same.    Yes, humans, scientists, and science is ultimately subjective, but there is a reason why people like Bruce, Bob, or others placed an emphasis on "verifications" in one's spiritual journey.   There is a necessary balance with the left brain which needs to happen.  

  Perhaps you swing too much towards the right brain, feminine polarity at times (yes, i know you are physically a guy)?   I'm not saying there is anything at all 'wrong" with this, in your case, its probably a necessary, dharmic path meant to balance your overall Soul energies.  

 My point is, that we find ourselves in the physical dimension, and this requires a certain amount of practicality, and using and honing to some extent, the logical, rational, comparative left brain aspect of self.   Through theory, thinking, analyzing, etc., we may never truly 'know' something, BUT it is a piece of the pie as well feelings, intuition, or directly experiencing something.   Maybe the point is more in the balance of these, and not getting too lopsided towards one or the other?

 The Shroud from a left brain aspect of self (my self), i would say has some very powerful, repeating, holistic and multifaceted correlations way beyond chance, which points to it not being a hoax.   But, it probably can't ever be proven to be the burial shroud of Yeshua, even if eventually the scientific community comes to the near definite conclusion that its not made by human hands.  Even then, though, there are many clear and repeating inferences or suggestions pointing in certain directions.   This is where intuition, feeling, and all that right brain stuff comes into play.

 Either way, i would suggest nobody taking my word for anything, and if one is sufficiently interested in the left brain aspect of this subject, to do a lot of study and research into both 'camps' which seem to be rather polarized in some respects.  Actually there are two major camps, and in one camp there is a sub division.   There are many who think it a hoax or made by human hands, in an artificial, manipulated way...and there are many who think its not a hoax, and resulted from some kind of natural or as yet not completely understood phenomenon.  
In the latter camp, many believe it is a natural chemical reaction which took place between certain bodily fluids and the cloth materials, and in the other they don't know, and don't believe it can be fully explained yet, though some here and there have theorized about various subtle energy reactions.   Scientifically, none from any side or camp will say that its the burial cloth of Yeshua, though it seems that there are some scientists who will say that they believe, in a 'faith' way that is the burial shroud which is a snap shot in space/time of the actual Resurrection as talked about in the N.T. (some with, and some without religious background innately supportive of and Yeshua/Christ centered).

 Having studied it from various angles, there are just too many coincidences for me to write it off as a hoax, or to be willy nilly about stating my belief that it's actual burial shroud of Yeshua, and the image of same having been produced, and the only 'evidence' in our history of any individual so transcending and mastering the physical forces.   Basically, to me, Yeshua through his ultimate spiritual development and being such a pure example of love within the Earth, took the frozen light energy of the body, and released the bonds by 'heating' (speeding up the vibratory rates to the nth degree) the body physical energies into pure light, thus redeeming his original spiritual error and partaking of the manifestation of the physical, illusionary, temporal reality.  "Snap back to reality, oops there goes gravity...lose yourself..."  

recoverer wrote on Oct 9^th, 2007 at 8:13pm:

Regarding the time it took Jesus to die, most people who were crucified didn't have stakes driven through their hands and feet. Since Jesus did, it is very possible he bled to death within a few hours.

 You all are forgetting that supposedly, according to both the N.T. accounts, and to the shroud indications, that Yeshua, and the man on the shroud, also had a spear put into his side from which 'water' seemingly spilled out in great quantities.    A man's body severely beaten and traumatized over time will store up great amounts of a clearish body fluid, which has the purpose of acting as a protective barrier, and possibly speeds up the healing process of such wounds.  Also, a person's lungs in such a sustained position as in crucifixion will tend to fill up with fluids.   Either way, no doubt if he wasn't dead before this, he would definitely die after this.

 The spear wound in the image of the man of the shroud, can even be matched up to a relatively clear degree of accuracy to a roman spear (blade) type used during Yeshua's times.  

 The man on the shroud was not "staked through the hands and feet" but rather through the wrists and just above the ankles--this being anatomically probably the correct way of successfully crucifying someone in a real and practical manner--though there is some debate on whether the hands and feet could hold up the weight of a man...

According to many sources, death in crucifixion comes more through a type of strangulation or drowning from the lungs, and them eventually filling up with fluids.  But, its been quite awhile since i've read about this stuff, so i'm not sure about how accurate the above is.

 Deanna, while i'm somewhat interested in this subject, with all due respect, isn't this something that belongs a lot more in the "off topic" section?  

:) Intrigued that I should come across as quite feminine in my means of sense making Ah So. Pretty much a compliment that, in that recent years have seen the intuitive and sensing side of me come much more to the fore. I'll never make it into the powder room though, there's still a lot of the analytical me left too!!! (not to mention 6ft 1in, 240 lbs and a stubbly chin)

You've more or less exactly described my perspective on the shroud. My knowledge of it is limited to what I've read and seen in documentary programmes, but that's been enough to suggest that for sure it checks out scientifically. Inasmuch as science can 'prove' anything.

My point was more to the effect that regardless of this it's origin can't ever be a matter of hard fact. And that while this sort of knowledge is useful in that it can help to intellectually reassure us that it's not wise to cling to it, to build a whole edifice of belief around it.

If only because the framework by which we make sense of our existence must be fluid and continuously developing if we are to progress on the path. If it's not we're stuck.

;) I guess i was so to speak casting a vote for the middle way, and the openness, flexibility of mind  and lightness of touch it implies.....

Greetings,

:) What do you stubblies and ladies  think of the claim that yes, it was a death shroud of a crucified man, and yes the image may have come from a flash of energy mixed with these bodily fluids, but that the person was a crucified founder of an order of monks in the 1100's?
(I think that's the date, the order was the Benedictine's, and Jacques DeMolay was the leaader crucified as part of tthe squashing of the Knights Templar.)

The diversity of opinions on this has ranged far beyond this small discussion, so I'm asking only for your point of view, because you have my respect;   :)  I'm not asking you to proove anything.

Love, Betson

Think that's the point about scientific investigation Bets. The bits of data may be reasonably firm provided the science is sound, but the interpretation of it can only be conjecture. And i've had far too much bad experience with the in my case the medical profession to have too much faith in any story we build from tiny bits of data.

For example  - we find maybe a couple of dozen examples of prehumans around the world and from that construct a storyline of the evolution of humanity. There's nothing wrong with (lightly) doing that, and it might be even half true when viewed through one lens (the physical) but it all goes a bit pear shaped when it becomes dogma and is quoted as fact. With the experts at war over who is right. And when this single way of looking at it is deemed the only one that's respectable......

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2007 at 3:50am:

:) Intrigued that I should come across as quite feminine in my means of sense making Ah So. Pretty much a compliment that, in that recent years have seen the intuitive and sensing side of me come much more to the fore. I'll never make it into the powder room though, there's still a lot of the analytical me left too!!! (not to mention 6ft 1in, 240 lbs and a stubbly chin)

;D  Don't knock it till you try it?  J/K, thank you for not taking it in a negative way, i didn't mean it negatively, though i suppose if i were to be completely honest with self and others, i was being somewhat judgmental towards you in a sense (except that there was very little active emotion involved in the perception)...   I too have a rather 'masculine' body in many respects--more hairy than i would at times like..

 As far as what i was saying about Yin polarization at times, WE ALL do this to varying degrees, my sense is that you are rather balanced as compared to the average.   I oft swing too much to the over balance of the yin or yang, at times, but generally speaking i'm consistently balanced enough to know and perceive what balance and imbalance looks and feels like.  I would say that nobody here (at least that i know of) is completely and perfectly balanced, otherwise they would completely and consciously transcend physicality and be pure light with seeming attributes of 'form'.  
Having read, and enjoyed many of your well written posts here, i have noticed a general tendency to over place emphasis on the Feminine Oneness, void, and fluidity aspect of Creation at least on the mental level.   This, in many respects is a very Eastern type approach, and it seems in general that the East has for a long time been imbalanced towards Yin on the mental and emotional levels of being.   I would suggest that perhaps we always retain some sense of individual, unique self no matter how spiritually developed we become...and this is where the West, and its imbalance comes in...the west has long placed way too much emphasis on the Yang, and individual, creating aspect of Creation.  



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My point was more to the effect that regardless of this it's origin can't ever be a matter of hard fact. And that while this sort of knowledge is useful in that it can help to intellectually reassure us that it's not wise to cling to it, to build a whole edifice of belief around it.

  I completely agree with the above.  I think it is an interesting study, and the science i've read behind it has been quite interesting to me, but yeah, where does it really leave us?  In the end, its just a cloth which bears the imprint of a man, and 'believing' in it will get no one no where fast....  However, being what it is and with all the suggestive circumstantial evidence around it, it can spark within some a greater overall belief in things of the Spirit, or a renewal or re-dedication to same.   As far as i understand it, apparently in some respects it has been life changing regarding belief systems, to a few scientists who have put a lot of study into.   Isn't that worthwhile?   You and i might not need such material 'proofs', but this is a world populated by many doubting Thomas's .   Sometimes things outside of us, can act as a catalyst and if there is any material 'object' in this world, which could have a catalytic affect, its the SOT.   Isn't the name of the game to get as many people aware of the nonphysical as possible, by whatever means?


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If only because the framework by which we make sense of our existence must be fluid and continuously developing if we are to progress on the path. If it's not we're stuck. ;) I guess i was so to speak casting a vote for the middle way, and the openness, flexibility of mind  and lightness of touch it implies.....

  That's a great attitude and approach, but there are times to become Fire or Earth.   The way you mentioned, is a very Water and Air type way, and this is a necessary balance.   I always look to the example of those whom i believe had a perfect balance within self, such as the Teacher of Teachers, Yeshua.   There were times, where he became more Fire or Earth in regards to others or towards life in general, but oft he was the gentle, flowing, and fluid type which comes from a balance and mix of Air and Water.  

 No surprise again, that the East in general, tends more towards the Water and Air balance, and that is what you seem more so to align to.

 Your above quote reminds me a bit of that saying about moderation, and how we must be moderate even in moderation.    Same with flexibility, we should strive not to become inflexible in a single minded pursuit of flexibility.      Appearances in this world can be deceiving, and sometimes when we think we are being flexible and flowing, sometimes it's not true in the inner levels, though it might appear that way on the surface.    

  On a personal level, sometimes i emphasize the Fire and Earth balance/mix way, because karmically, i've actually over developed the Air and Water energies, and i'm trying to bring in the necessary balance of which Earth and Fire will give to me, if i can integrate and balance them all together as one within self.  In my chart, my karmic indications are primarily that of Water and Air.   Pisces South Node in 7th, Moon ruling 12th in Libra conjunct ruler of the 6th which makes only two major aspects besides, to Uranus and Neptune, and Uranus in Scorpio in the 4th House/Scorpio-Pisces decant Nadir.    That's a whole lotta Water and Air, and probably why i was born under Capricornus, with Leo Rising, and a lot of Earth (stellium of Virgo) besides.

 Again, thank you for taking my earlier comments in a good natured way, that speaks a lot of good about you and the path you are on.  And i do really enjoy your well thought out and written posts.

 Hi Bets, i really don't know enough about that theory to comment on it.   It surely is possible, but do i personally strongly believe or perceive it that way right now, no.    I may look more into that theory and see what i get.  

Btw, regarding the Shroud, i've always been struck by this interesting parallel or 'coincidence'.   In the Cayce Readings, Yeshua's physical looks were described briefly a couple of times.   One particular reading for some reason, mentioned that he would have weighed at least 170 lbs, which for a man who was said to have fasted at times, and to be very physically active, that's a decent weight for the supposed average heights then.   Either he was a bit taller than average, and/or also rather 'well set up' as the saying goes.   This reading was given back in the 30's i believe.  

 During intensive research and study into the anatomy and physical characteristics, it was determined (well after that Cayce reading was given) by those very knowledgeable and practiced in those fields, that from indications on the shroud, and in their best guess, that the man would have weighed 170 lbs give or take a few pounds.    The man on the shroud, is also somewhat tall for either the earlier Jewish times and climes, and also from the Medieval times and climes, and would be described as powerfully built and muscular.  

 If Cayce is right about his descriptions, and also if the Shroud is the burial of Yeshua, than this would certainly blast the oft portrayed namby pamby physical weakness and over femininity of this man.  Cayce even made a point in saying that he wasn't overly feminine looking whatsoever, but actually rather masculine in some ways though his hair tended to curl.

 Strangely enough, Cayce also indicated that Yeshua's looks also differed in other major ways from the so called 'typical' or average Hebraic and Arabic type for then (keep in mind, there was a lot of mixing and immigration around his times, and look at ancient descriptions and depictions of the ancient Greeks, and their average looks today, there is certainly a definite variation).  

 Saying that the Master's hair was 'most red', and in another reading, saying that his hair was like that of David's, a "clear, clean, ruddy hair almost like that of David, a golden brown, yellow-red.."   and also describes his eyes as heavy, piercing and a grayish blue.   I well know that this sounds a bit like the Euro centric version of "Yeshua", and actually goes against my earlier beliefs and perceptions about his looks.  

 I'm practical minded, and have had a strong interest in genetics since a young age, and i always figured he probably looked rather typically Hebraic in most ways (darker hair, eyes, and innately darker skin, tend towards shortness or average height, etc), and when i heard these Cayce readings it resonated to my inner self, BUT at the same time conflicted with the conscious beliefs and thoughts i had had on this subject, and since at that time i somewhat 'prided' myself on lack of Euro centric prejudice and greater impartiality as compared to most Americans.   Anyways, truth can be stranger than fiction at times.

Does any of this matter, nah, i just find it somewhat interesting sometimes.  

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2007 at 1:24am:

the only 'evidence' in our history of any individual so transcending and mastering the physical forces.   Basically, to me, Yeshua through his ultimate spiritual development and being such a pure example of love within the Earth, took the frozen light energy of the body, and released the bonds by 'heating' (speeding up the vibratory rates to the nth degree) the body physical energies into pure light, thus redeeming his original spiritual error and partaking of the manifestation of the physical, illusionary, temporal reality.  "Snap back to reality, oops there goes gravity...lose yourself..."

 Correcting myself here, i shouldn't have said, the 'only "evidence"' since supposedly there was a Buddhist Monk, who in realizing the Light 'body', melted a hand print into bare rock.   I believe there are people who from a linear time/space perspective, realized their light body natures after Yeshua did (during this great cycle), and in times far, far, far past.   Cayce's source indicates that there were cycles in the very far past where many lived and existed as Gods, Monroe's info also indicates this about the very far past, and the somewhat near future.   But Cayce also indicates that recently (and by recent, we mean in the last 500, 000 years or so), that Yeshua was the first to be born of a woman, who completely transcended and transformed their physical energies, but also indicating that others since him have also done so...

We all eventually will too, i hope.

 Relating to the shroud, the Cayce readings, and other interesting parallels...   Astrology is also potentially a factor in synthesizing a more total view on these subjects.  

 Cayce's source once indicated that Miriam, Yeshua's mother, was his "Twin Soul" and also that she was born under the astrological sign of Aquarius.      

Astrologically, this is potentially a general clue to Yeshua and his astrology as well as being suggestive of the validity of the shroud-Yeshua theory, and of Cayce's descriptions of his looks.   In my studies of astrology, particularly in comparing charts between those in some kind of active, close, relationship, certain patterns show up often.   One of the more common inter aspect between two particularly close personalities (read, Twin souls for one), is one person's Sun being the opposite sign of the other person's Rising sign.  This is perhaps the single most powerful inter aspect that shows up in a chart comparison.  

  What fills in the piece of the puzzle, is that from my studies into astrology, i've also realized (and its also an astrological tradition), that in many ways, certain astrological indications can correlate to physical looks and patterns.   Particularly the Rising sign, and indications connected to same (it's rulers' aspects, a planet closely aspecting the ASC, etc), indicate the overall, predominant 'type' and holistic pattern of looks.  

 Connecting the dots, what is interesting to me, is that if Cayce is right about Yeshua's looks and Miriam his mother being an Aquarius Sun and his Twin Soul, the shroud is the burial cloth of Yeshua, and certain basic and repeating astrological patterns...   We can say with some credibility, that Yeshua was born with Leo Rising because it fits more than one of these criteria.  

 The combination of looks of the man on the Shroud, and Cayce's descriptions of Yeshua fit the Archetypal Leo Rising in many repeating ways, and it just so "coincidentally" happens that this is the opposite Rising sign of his Mother's Sun sign with whom he was very close too.  

 Who cares, and what does it matter you say, dunno, why do some like eating chocolate ice cream or posting consistently often on i-net forums, i just have rather different interests and attractions than many others.

wrote on Oct 11^th, 2007 at 12:26pm:

I believe there are people who from a linear time/space perspective, realized their light body natures after Yeshua did (during this great cycle),

Is a "light body" the same as a "rainbow body" -- by which supposedly highly-level Buddhist practitioners' bodies sometimes shrink and disappear after death. I have wondered before it that was a possible explanation of the story of Jesus'empty tomb

 Hi Orlando,

 Yes, i believe so.  Just different names for the same experience i guess.   If you are interested in Bob Monroe, The Monroe Institute, and stuff connected to that, you might want to check out a excellent book called "Cosmic Journeys" written by Bob's long time exploring partner, Rosiland McKnight.   Much of the book is taken straight from the taped explorer sessions they did together with Rosie's guidance team.  

 They talk a bit about the man Yeshua here and there, and casually mention that Yeshua even before the crucifixion could phase into his 5th 'body', and thus become invisible to others, as well as not being limited by linear space/time so called natural 'laws'.    They talk about the 7 major energy centers/chakras, and about 5 major 'bodies' of the human system.  They said some few humans here and there, could consciously and consistently phase into and act from this 5th body while partaking directly of physical energies.

 They also claim that Yeshua was the fastest vibratory being to come to Earth, and came direct from the pure God Source consciousness.

 Edgar Cayce's guidance energies makes similar claims, and there more than a few general parallels between Rosie's guidance and their info, and the guidance info that came through Cayce.

I see, well, I guess that's all possible. If the Bible accounts can be taken as reasonably factual (which I don;t think is necessarily the case) then a. the tomb was found empty and b. the body he appeared to the disciples in did not behave like an ordinary one - at one point he appeared inside a locked room, for example, and then, of course he just "ascended"and disappeared. I don;t think we're talking about his ordinary body simply resuscitating. I think the catholic doctrine agrees with this (sort-of - as they don't think his physical body disappeared, but rather that it was transformed) and call his post resurrection body a "glorious"one, which is what the faithful are supposed to get after the final judgment - a kind of fusing of body and soul that looks like a normal body but has greater powers and is immortal. Another possibility some historians mention re Jesus is that his body was placed in a common grave, or even eaten by animals, in which case the post-mortem appearances would have been of a spiritual kind (however there are accounts these days of spirits appearing in solid form to people, so that could be what happened to the disciples, I guess). Just some ponderings.. It is also worth mentioning  - in these days when many Christians do not think in such literal terms - that the traditional doctine says Jesus is still in Heaven with the body that he ascended with and is coming back in it flying though the clouds at some point. I find this fairly unlikely. When you reaslise that in those days they probably thought of Heaven as a place that was literally "up" above the clouds somewhere, then that idea makes more sense.

orlando123 wrote on Oct 12^th, 2007 at 2:46am:

I see, well, I guess that's all possible. If the Bible accounts can be taken as reasonably factual (which I don;t think is necessarily the case) then a. the tomb was found empty and b. the body he appeared to the disciples in did not behave like an ordinary one - at one point he appeared inside a locked room, for example, and then, of course he just "ascended"and disappeared. Just some ponderings.. It is also worth mentioning  - in these days when many Christians do not think in such literal terms - that the traditional doctine says Jesus is still in Heaven with the body that he ascended with and is coming back in it flying though the clouds at some point. I find this fairly unlikely. When you reaslise that in those days they probably thought of Heaven as a place that was literally "up" above the clouds somewhere, then that idea makes more sense.

  Guess it depends on which parts of the Bible one is referring too.  I think that much of the O.T. is deeply symbolic and allegorical, with some literal history mixed in, and Revelations of the N.T. is also deeply symbolic and allegorical--much like a dream.  

  But, the rest of the N.T. seems to depart from the long Jewish tradition and style of strong allegory, etc., and contains a lot more of the literal, historical, journalistic type approach, though i believe it is still multi-layered.    Either way, i'm not even close to being an expert on either the O.T. or N.T.  
Growing up, i was always much more attracted to Eastern teachings in a mental belief system kind of way (one of my first "spiritual" books was "3 pillars of Zen").   I wasn't particularly fond of religion in general (though saw truth in many or most), and specifically was rather turned off by Christian religions.   Yet, i was fascinated with the Teacher Yeshua, his teachings, and that time period.  I was much more drawn to him in a personal manner, than any other teacher, though paradoxically i was more drawn to the overall belief systems of some eastern branches as compared to modern Christian, dogmatic belief systems.     But i realized at a young age, that there was plenty of dogma and skewed interpretation in many of the Eastern teachings too.


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I don;t think we're talking about his ordinary body simply resuscitating. I think the catholic doctrine agrees with this (sort-of - as they don't think his physical body disappeared, but rather that it was transformed) and call his post resurrection body a "glorious"one, which is what the faithful are supposed to get after the final judgment - a kind of fusing of body and soul that looks like a normal body but has greater powers and is immortal.

 I essentially agree.  The physical body is made up of energy, the spiritual is also energy.  The difference or distinction between the two is two fold.  The physical is very, very slow vibrating in nature, and has both positive and negative charges.   The spiritual is very fast vibrating in nature, and is primarily of a positive charge.   Yeshua fused these, and thus transformed the physical body, and there must have been quite an energy reaction when this happened, one of the possible explanations behind the image being formed on the burial shroud.   Now he has both attributes of pure limitless Light, and yet physicality and form.  The first born of a women to do this (in a collectively slow vibrating both smaller and larger cycle) and thus the ultimate, universal pattern in the Earth of spiritual development, or so Cayce's guidance energies say at least.


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Another possibility some historians mention re Jesus is that his body was placed in a common grave, or even eaten by animals, in which case the post-mortem appearances would have been of a spiritual kind (however there are accounts these days of spirits appearing in solid form to people, so that could be what happened to the disciples, I guess).

 I suppose that is possible, though the N.T. accounts stress that both the Jewish and Roman leaders involved, wanted to make sure that nothing happened to the body, and had guards there, etc.    Before Yeshua had been crucified he had mentioned that he was going to die, and come back in 3 days time.   No doubt this "leaked out" to the factions against him and his ways, and they wanted to make sure that none of his followers arranged any kind of event to make others think that this happened.

 And oh yeah, btw, we are still left with the Shroud of Turin, one of the most, if not the most puzzling, controversial, scientifically analyzed, and hotly debated ancient artifacts.   Others can think and believe what they want, but when many of the dots start connecting from fairly reliable sources...well being pragmatic and practical, i go where the dots lead me.

 For example, why, if the shroud was created in a 'natural' manner by fluids of the body chemically reacting with the shroud fibers...(as quite a few scientists now theorize) then why with all the burials of humans there have been, in all of the archaeological finds, then why o'why do we not have another example of this in relation to a human body and their burial cloths?   Oh, and yeah btw, certain historical accounts independent of the shroud artifact  just happen to say and agree that a peculiar man who did many peculiar things in his life, and who was killed by crucifixion, resurrected his physical body and showed up to many people for awhile afterwards...

 Orlando, besides the book i mentioned earlier, "Cosmic Journeys", have you ever read of Robert A. Monroe's own stuff, the books he actually wrote?    In his last book, "Ultimate Journey" he relates a rather surprising and odd account that he had during one of his many consciousness explorations beyond C1.   He asks his Higher self/Total self/Disk/I-there if he could meet the most mature (spiritually speaking) person living in his then space/time.   He was told yes, it was possible but it might not be what he expected.  

 He ends up with his perception in a normal looking sort of room, with a desk, and sitting at the desk is a person.  As soon as Bob's nonphysical awareness focuses on this person, this person becomes aware of Bob, and there is a brief span of time wherin Bob can feel this person's energy radiation.   He said it was powerful, and like standing in warm spring Sun light, which contained every possible human emotion.    And, it was perfectly balanced between masculine and feminine, one minute Bob was sure this person was a guy, the next moment, a woman.   So Bob in his head called this person "He/She", and apparently He/She telepathically heard this thought, mentally chuckled, and said i've never had that name before.

 Anyways, they start communicating telepathically, and Bob is allowed limited access to He/She's mind about their lifestyle, life, and some history.   Bob exclaims surprise after 'hearing' that He/She is some 1800 years old or so, doesn't eat nor sleep, and hasn't "recycled" in that time period.    Bob also picks up that this person constantly works many different jobs in C1 (physical) consciousness, and the reason simply given was that He/She likes people.  

  Now, the Cayce readings, and Yeshua himself in the N.T. states that Yeshua never did or would permanently leave the physical plane.  "I will be with you until the end of time" type stuff.  
While Monroe doesn't come right out and say who this person's identity is, there are almost like clues left in this account.   One is that Monroe says that i sense you are occidental (western/near eastern) in origin (so no Tibetan Lama, Zen Monk, etc), and hints that others have already thought on this person's existence in the physical, because Bob says, "but nobody really believes you exist".   In another of Bob's book, his 2nd one, one of his explorers seems to have channeled Christ, and in this channeling, this consciousness says not to look for me in the form of a man yet, the time hasn't yet come, and in truth i never left.  Maybe, the New Testament is literally right after all?

 Take from all this what you will...  

Thanks, interesting points of view. As for the guards at the tomb etc , and whether or not Jesus predicted his own death, you admit you are not a NT expert, and neither am I, but I'm aware there is much controversy among Bible scholars as to which bits of the NT accounts are likely to be historically accurate and which not, but it is a mind-boggling are and ultimately not one I wants to get into huge debates about. I think it's fair to say though that although they seem less metaphorical than some parts of the Bible you can see just by comparing some of the contradictions between gospel accounts of the same events that they can't be seen as completely factual accounts. Also, it is widely believed Mark is the earliest gospel, and in some cases, notably concerning what happened after Jesus' death, it is simpler and arguably less embroidered than the others. Anyway, as I say, although it's an area i have taken an interest in, it's not one I especially want to debate in detail right now.

I've not read any Monroe books, although I plan to. i ordered his first from an Amazon partner firm and they sent me a book about cold-calling instead and have stiil not sent me the right one even though I returned it weeks ago. i plan to write a very unchristian review of them on Amazon.

The incident you describe is intriguing. It interests me, eg, when people talk about having a balance of masculine and feminine qualities as a good thing or something you come across in highly-spiritually-evolved entities, as i , possibly too pridefully, think this is a good thing in myself (although this world seems sometimes to be more geared around polarity). But then again, who is to say some very masculine or feminine people are not much more spiritually-evolved, in other ways, than me? Also I guess appearances can be decieving and, eg, a seemingly very "masculine"man might have great reserves of compassion and nurturing, which are stereotyped as feminine, or a seemingly very girly woman might actually be have very strong and practical sides to her, supposed to be more masculine etc

As for the shroud, I have no strong opinions about it, although, as you say, maybe the image is almost "too perfect". Also I thought it had been carbon-dated as probably medieval?

Just what I always say when it comes to the shroud,
it is NOT an imprint of a body (sweat, blood or whatever), simply because such an imprint would be distorted, unlike what you see on the shroud, which is more like a photography (make an imprint of your face with paint, wrapping something around it and you'll know what I mean).

Sorry for that technical note, but there are still many who do believe right that.

Spooky

 Clear and concise point Spooky, thank you for sharing that info.  

Personally, I haven't looked to the shroud as evidence, because if I can't have faith in my own experiences with Christ, I'm hopeless.

 Hi Orlando,

 Yeah, as far as the Bible goes, who knows.  I suppose each needs to go within to cross check such info.  Why not get receptive and ask your guidance for clues, or what not?

 When you finally get Monroe's book, i think you will probably enjoy it.


Quote:

The incident you describe is intriguing. It interests me, eg, when people talk about having a balance of masculine and feminine qualities as a good thing or something you come across in highly-spiritually-evolved entities, as i , possibly too pridefully, think this is a good thing in myself (although this world seems sometimes to be more geared around polarity). But then again, who is to say some very masculine or feminine people are not much more spiritually-evolved, in other ways, than me? Also I guess appearances can be decieving and, eg, a seemingly very "masculine"man might have great reserves of compassion and nurturing, which are stereotyped as feminine, or a seemingly very girly woman might actually be have very strong and practical sides to her, supposed to be more masculine etc

 You bring up some good points and questions, for sure!  I believe that as Souls, we have both attributes or polarities originally, but somehow, somewhere down the line we unbalanced our energies and the physical is the result of that..   And being the result of collective imbalance within many selves, the physical is based on two seeming things, separation and polarization.

 The two distinct genders are reflective (and a de-evolving pattern) of this imbalance within, or in other words, what happens within is what gets eventually projected and solidified without.  It is said that many highly evolved E.T.'s, are completely androgynous, both in vibe/energy, and  even physically wise as well.  It is said that Arch Angels seem like both male and female in one..

 I would say that as both Souls and physical personalities, we all are at various degrees and ratios of imbalance between these fundamental Archetypes and states of being.  A man may seem rather masculine in outer ways (like i do, innately muscular and strong body, drives a motorcycle, plays sports, likes to be physically active sometimes, etc), and yet be rather balanced within, such as you mention, being very compassionate, receptive, can listen to others and one's own feelings, etc.   Men such as these, tend to be more intuitive, more emotionally open, etc.  And of course, they tend to be 'happier', being more whole.

 Conversely the same with a more developed woman.  She may be more go getting, more active, stronger in will, more analytical and logically oriented, etc.    And being in a male or female body, is not a guarantee of having that same predominant energy pattern within the emotional, mental, and spiritual aspects of self.    Some men are definitely lopsided to the Yin state of being within, though many seem overall more lopsided to Yang.

 The problem is determining all this as well, is that quite a few people are constantly shifting back and forth between these two states, similar to what's talked about in left vs. right brain theories and studies.   Some shift more than others, some are more stuck than others, some just have a better consistent balance or rather merging than others.   Personally i believe, that the more consistently balanced and merged between these, the more spiritually developed is the person you are perceiving...and to a certain extent, development also shapes one's perception of others.   A more innately and consistently balanced person can more easily and deeply recognize a likewise more balanced person, and understand exactly what that means both logically and feeling wise.

 Another human subject which is both rather relative, yet containing underlying absolutes.  I find it quite an interesting topic, and one i've thought and felt long on.   Part of that is my karmic patterns and tendencies, such as Moon in Libra near the 3rd house cusp, Venus in Aquarius in Libra decant, in the 7th house and exactly sextile Neptune ruler of the 8th and exactly trine Pluto in 3rd, ruler of the 4th, closely square Uranus in the 4th ruler of the 7th, and generally a predominant Jupiter force, and strong Solar energy.

recoverer wrote on Oct 12^th, 2007 at 5:56pm:

Personally, I haven't looked to the shroud as evidence, because if I can't have faith in my own experiences with Christ, I'm hopeless.

 

  I wouldn't say a person is "hopeless" in such a case, but rather probably a bit misguided with some fundamental core beliefs which need to be updated.  

  Personally, i don't look to the shroud as evidence, but as more of as 'outer' verification of what i already (and way before i even heard of same) know to be true.    Isn't it nice when the outer matches up with the inner?  

  I believe it exists and is public for a reason.   There are infinite ways for a person to become interested in and open to the nonphysical, and as i've said before, sometimes something outside of us can act as a catalyst to thinking differently...   If it fulfills even just that role ONCE, then it is valuable and a worthwhile study.  

 Besides, how many people have had conscious experiences with Christ?  That almost sounds a bit like spiritual snobbery my friend.   Simple enough to ask Yeshua himself, if he left this behind on purpose or not, not for you, but perhaps for others who are more entrenched in their materialistic mind sets.     Why else did the Teacher himself occasionally perform what were and are considered "miracles"... these weren't for the believers...

thanks for saying I bring up good points. you too. As for shifting around in terms of the balance of masculine and feminine attributes/feelings etc, I have certainly experienced some of that in my jouney through life but as you say, a balance is what I generally aim for and feel in a reasonably settled place right now. I don't know much about astrology, but I take it you are referring to this balance of gender attributes again

 regarding your last question Orlando, yes, to some extent.   Astrology is a perception tool of pre-existing indications and patterns.  I wasn't talking about my chart showing indications of being particularly balanced, but rather showing interests in this aspect of life and human relationships.  Or in other shorter words, when both Libra and Aquarius are strong in a person's chart, this would incline to thinking and being more interested in such questions.   Libra is the sign par excellence which deals with the concept of balance, and with relationships.  

 Aquarius is another air sign dealing with communication and relationships, but whereas Libra deals with relationships in a more one to one manner, Aquarius deals with larger groups, more universal in scope and tendencies.   This is the more generalized version, though there are more specific things to take into account generally, or more specifically in my chart.

Ahso:

I can see how it sounded snobbish. Snobbery wasn't my intent. I just feel moved to share that Christ has touched my life when the occasion arises.

You make a good point about the shroud presenting good evidence for some.


wrote on Oct 12^th, 2007 at 6:32pm:

recoverer wrote on Oct 12th, 2007 at 5:56pm: Personally, I haven't looked to the shroud as evidence, because if I can't have faith in my own experiences with Christ, I'm hopeless.     I wouldn't say a person is "hopeless" in such a case, but rather probably a bit misguided with some fundamental core beliefs which need to be updated.     Personally, i don't look to the shroud as evidence, but as more of as 'outer' verification of what i already (and way before i even heard of same) know to be true.    Isn't it nice when the outer matches up with the inner?     I believe it exists and is public for a reason.   There are infinite ways for a person to become interested in and open to the nonphysical, and as i've said before, sometimes something outside of us can act as a catalyst to thinking differently...   If it fulfills even just that role ONCE, then it is valuable and a worthwhile study.    Besides, how many people have had conscious experiences with Christ?  That almost sounds a bit like spiritual snobbery my friend.   Simple enough to ask Yeshua himself, if he left this behind on purpose or not, not for you, but perhaps for others who are more entrenched in their materialistic mind sets.     Why else did the Teacher himself occasionally perform what were and are considered "miracles"... these weren't for the believers...

 Hi Albert, after thinking a bit about it, i figured you didn't mean in a snobby type way, but in the way you just explained.

 btw, i agree with much of what you wrote and said on the Tea thread, though i don't have even half the knowledge and facts as you do on such specific eastern guru and teachings history.  I go more by what i feel lately anyways, though i still try to keep my mind sharp and clear as well.

Ahso:

Regarding the snobbery thing, I feel way too much grattitude and humility about having the experiences I've had to be snobbish about it. When I've made contact, I felt honored that Christ took the time to communicate to me. I told him so during such experiences.  Not that I believe Christ has elite ideas about himself, but until I reach his level I'm going to view him with reverence and awe. Actually, I hope I never lose the ability to do so, because it feels really good. Regardless of what state I reach some day, Christ most certainly has more to do with the big picture than I.

I don't feel offended in anyway. Actually, I'm glad you wrote what you wrote, because I tuned into love for Christ when I wrote the above. So, thank you. :)


wrote on Oct 12^th, 2007 at 7:54pm:

Hi Albert, after thinking a bit about it, i figured you didn't mean in a snobby type way, but in the way you just explained.  btw, i agree with much of what you wrote and said on the Tea thread, though i don't have even half the knowledge and facts as you do on such specific eastern guru and teachings history.  I go more by what i feel lately anyways, though i still try to keep my mind sharp and clear as well.

 That's a beautiful attitude for sure.  I too have a lot of reverence, appreciation, and gratitude for him and the contacts i've had.  If i was more intune, no doubt i would have more contacts.. i'm working on it though it seems a bit slow going at times.