Hello everyone :-)
I have some curiosity about what the concept of time is like in the afterlife. I hear again and again that it simply isn't a factor, that one doesn't notice it or acknowledge time's existence. This seems to be true for almost all NDEs I've been reading, as well as some channeled resources. That seems so outside my sphere of understanding as to be almost frightening! lol For instance, people do things in the afterlife. They have conversations, they progress spiritually, etc, so there must be some sort of sensation of "before I was doing this, I was doing something else" or "I had that conversation with Bob before I went swimming, which seems to be x amount of time ago." right? Even "I didn't know this before, but I learned it since being here, so that must have happened BEFORE." and things like that. My head is spinning! lol

It's good that you ask the questions. I am no authority, and I ask the same things. Perhaps the concept of time is similar to the time factor when we dream. I have read that even the most seemingly lengthy dreams are only a few seconds long, and I find that hard to believe, because I gather such lengthy details, and they take longer than that, UNLESS perhaps my dreaming mind is in another kind of "zone". (compressed time  ?) We can't prove many things , but we aren't pitchforked by Spirit to produce instant results or answers. What matters is that we wonder, and pay attention. The best part of the journey is often simply getting to ask questions, and expand consciousness. Time can be bandied about.

Greetings,

I agree with Gweexldax that asking and wonderment are about all there is when thinking about timelessness. I probably feared timelessness too, or maybe I was just stubborn, but it was the most persistent of my earth-based concerns to over-come.
We lack the words or experience to fully explain timelessness. You just be.  :)

In the levels closer to Earth you can have conversations, but Helpers from higher regions transmit ideas so quickly that you just accept/absorb the information, because to try to stop and think 'why did he just say that?' would throw off the whole meeting. Higher still you just know immediately.

Pretty neat, eh? And that's only a small part of it.

Love, Bets

its like psychological time. thats where you are so obsorbed in something, time gets away, that you are not aware it is passing because no clocks are there.  :)

I have read there are appointments on the other side, so kind of like a structure where we go from experience to experience, just like here, school, work, relax, play time, same thing, just no body, fast transportation is instant, sleep and eat if you want, but not necessary to be so structured into those habits.

I hear it's an entirely different dimension of higher frequencies, here we are in bodies, it is like being frozen in time, in a way here.
over there, much more natural movements, moving along on thought waves like electricity. love, alysia

The interesting bit on time is that whatever about the afterlife our perception that it exists even in this life seems to be mind made - or as Eckhardt Tolle and lots of traditions might say there's nothing except the everlasting 'now'.

When as somebody said were you ever not in the 'now'? The past is memory, and the future is imagined or projected from the past. Neither has any independently existing reality for us except as  constructions of the mind.

There's nothing wrong with this for practical purposes, but we can and normally do get hung up about both - we get immersed in what is basically thought, and they assume a false reality for us. This is a major barrier to spiritual opening as it conditions our perception and blocks higher seeing. e.g. we inevitably construe situations in accordance with (usually) bad prior experience, or fret about negative futures, and the resulting mental static blocks access to higher realities.

Physics (and I'm no expert) it seems has figured out that both time (and possibly space as well) have  no absolute existence - that they are essentially illusions (mental constructs) we use to make sense of our reality. Einstein and the more recent quantum theorists it seems to have fairly conclusively demonstrated this.

Despite this quantum theory seems to suggest that the future is a lot more accessible to mind than we think. (but not via conventional thought)

'What The Bleep - Down the Rabbit Hole' is a really interesting film that deals with issues like these - it takes the most recent science and shows how it bridges to the spiritual. http://www.whatthebleep.com/rabbithole/  As is Lynn McTaggart's book 'The Field'....

Thanks, guys, I like your explanation Alysia, and I know about the Eternal Now and What the Bleep and all that Vajra, but that doesn't mean that knowing these things will help me to understand what people have described. I have a feeling this is one of those things I'm just going to have to wonder about until I experience it lol, because even people who HAVE experienced it can't explain it!  :o I appreciate the replies.
-Kat

wanted to mention in some retrievals I've done, the persons have been there according to our defintion of linear time for many many years, however, it seems to them like a few months have passed by. I think that's because we are slowed down here.

that time is like an illusion, insofar as our spirits go. the illusion of time going by is like starring in our own movie, again, from the spirit's perception of the overview.

thats why when we get home we often say to each other, wow, that went by so fast. but while we are here, sometimes to practice being in the now, which is a practice to ground oneself, and to be a logical person, or to try to look as if you are a logical person, lol (me) as I was saying, while we are here in C1, this is waking consciousness, we are sensing that time goes by slowly when we are being objective or to desire something we perceive as not having...while on the other hand time flies when you are having fun or you are in love. it goes by too fast in that case.

so I suppose we create time to be as it appears to us. ACIM is my path of choice, it says "You and your brothers gave yourself "time" in which to accomplish the healing of the separation."
then it says there is not separation, as we are all one.

love, alysia

Sorry SENO. I guess having theoretical views on what might be going down doesn't mean a whole lot. Other than that it maybe serves to shake up our existing beliefs.

Your point and Alysia's beg a very big question though.

Our problems in making sense of higher realities are arguably because our sensorium (? - sensing, sense making and ability to act) is configured to function in this physical time/space reality as we experience it here.

Does that mean that when we end up in the afterlife we gain (create?) a whole new sensorium?

It gets really complicated if you consider that however it works the mixing of mind with a time less state of pure potentiality means we probably end up bringing into existence whatever reality we are motivated to create.

Especially since we probably perceive (much as in this life/dream) much of the context as being fixed and independent of what we feel/think...

Do we carry over our time/space sensorium so that the realities we create are recognisable to us, or can/do we experience whole new realities???

My personal suspicion is that the sensorium is a part of ego, and that it's stripped off as we proceed towards rebirth so that whatever our surviving essence is can don a new one to suit the new existence. Which for example could be on a different world, or in a different dimension.

But if that's the case does the essence (which for those of us stuck in the cycle of rebirth is only a temporary state - whatever that means) have consciousness, self awareness and a sensorium of some sort that functions in the timeless reality??

Vajra said:

Our problems in making sense of higher realities are arguably because our sensorium (? - sensing, sense making and ability to act) is configured to function in this physical time/space reality as we experience it here.
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the sensorium is configured to function here in this reality, to say the human ear can pick up certain wave lengths of sound, while the dog's ear is configured far beyond ours. however the mind has been proven, to me at least, to exist not in the brain; as well when a person's eyesight goes, it has been observed the other senses become quite enhanced beyond what u would expect.

have you heard of the term non/physical senses? this is like extra sensory perception idea. Nonphysical senses is like an extention of the physical sensorium, however, now we seem to get into the question of which came first? the egg or the chicken.
I'd just say neither. first cause is spirit of formless energy but quite intelligent and I'd say perfect. some call it heart intelligence, some call it, that god is working in their lives and now we get back to what are we?
we are spirit. or energy forms probing physical life. god moved over the waters, and we were right there moving along the same.

my aha moment from studying Monroe and Bruce's books is the waking conscious area definition and putting that alongside of what I know and understand as the spiritual non/physical planes of awareness, and of course doing retrievals and PE's early on and having these experiences means I am at a loss to explain, even the benefits with the use of our current language, so I need to be creative, but so does every one else.

TMI defines it as limited consciousness is C1, and here is the veil of forgetfulness laid, but we can and do remember who we are, it may take a whole lifetime but we have the time.
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Does that mean that when we end up in the afterlife we gain (create?) a whole new sensorium?
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I don't think so. you will always be recognizable to yourself as yourself without or with new eyes.
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It gets really complicated if you consider that however it works the mixing of mind with a time less state of pure potentiality means we probably end up bringing into existence whatever reality we are motivated to create.
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what u just said above is not complicated to me, its what we do either here or there, motivation, desire, curiosity, the human is made of these items as a probe. PUL is what we end up manifesting in the end, PUL answers any questions we can manufacture by the ego because PUL is a state of expanded or merged awareness with all that is.

Especially since we probably perceive (much as in this life/dream) much of the context as being fixed and independent of what we feel/think...
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what is perceived is miniscule but never is our reality truly fixed and independent of what we feel and think.  it just looks that way temporarily,
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Do we carry over our time/space sensorium so that the realities we create are recognisable to us, or can/do we experience whole new realities???
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this is the same question as earlier. perhaps we can say once we get to the other state of being, we can see the whole picture and why we did what we did.
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My personal suspicion is that the sensorium is a part of ego, and that it's stripped off as we proceed towards rebirth
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I don't think theres anything to lose, and don't think its stripped off at all, I think the ego does not need to die, but can be corrected. but we can experience belief system crashes which make it feel like the ego is dying.
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so that whatever our surviving essence is can don a new one to suit the new existence.
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theres a record keeper. we can always pick up our records anytime we really need to.
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But if that's the case does the essence (which for those of us stuck in the cycle of rebirth is only a temporary state - whatever that means) have consciousness, self awareness and a sensorium of some sort that functions in the timeless reality??
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one can float in timeless bliss right now, in the body. you're only stuck if you have no gratitude for your life, then it is prison. with gratitude, more reason to be grateful enters where it is welcomed then there is nowhere to ascend to.

well, love to all. alysia

aside the topic for a moment I met a young woman living in WA would go to sleep at nght and wake up into another life as an alternate woman with the same looks, the life would be basically the same but with a twist in the story. perhaps a divorce had occurred in one but not the other. I believe in this other life she had one less child which would effect the entire life if u think about it.

then I came across an author who also was in touch with an alternate life. how strange to go to sleep and awaken into this other self, whom was basically unaware that there were two of you, split down the middle.

:) Thank you for going to so much trouble to reply Alysia!

I guess I floated those questions because it seems that the realities we create in the afterlife (at least as described by Monroe, Bruce and others here) seem very much to be replicas of what we had in life. Including time. Ranging from the belief system territories right up to the higher focus levels.

It strikes me as odd that having found ourselves in a state of existence where mind creates all and where our reality can be whatever we want it to be (?) that we should go ahead and replicate a version of worldly life. (complete with a non-physical replication of our earthly senses so that we can enjoy it!)

It's a bit like going on vacation to an exotic destination and insisting on eating in McDonalds and reading newspapers from home while closeted in the hotel room because they are familiar.

Yet the dropping of the body in the afterlife could be read as implying an opportunity to temporarily return to God, Love, the absolute, to unity, to the no-time reality  - we as you say Alysia get glimpses of it in this life while in elevated states of consciousness. (although we can't make much sense of it because we relate to it as you say via our earthly sensorium)

;) I was I guess in a roundabout way wondering if somehow in the afterlife we maybe have the capability to do more than eat in McDonalds. Wondering if possibly after an initial 'getting comfortable' period in an earth like reality that we might go on to relate in a more engaged manner with the absolute? (which would imply a whole new sensorium)

Signs are that this is not the case, at least for most of us. It seems (as taught in differing ways by Monroe and Buddhism) that we are in fact so attached to the earth system and sensorium (maybe that's the big meaning of ego?) that despite the potential we're not really able to transcend it. Meaning that we somehow find our way through to rebirth without ever having done so - without ever truly escaping our earth bound limits, without truly experiencing love and the absolute.

If this latter is the case then the 'forgetting' you mention maybe does amount to some sort of necessary (but only partial) stripping away of ego and obscuration to give us a clearer overview of our past and previous lives, and to ensure that the choice of a new life will take account of this insight. (maybe a broader way of looking at the meaning of karma)

Your point about the power of love to transcend ego (presumably because when we finally become able to live from PUL there's no obscuration or selfish motivation left) is central too. Maybe it's upon reaching this PUL state/dropping of ego that our attachment to the earth life system ends - and opens the way out of McDonalds.

Which would mean that since we were no longer driven by attachment rebirth would become optional - we could choose to be reborn to help others (as the Tibetan Rinpoches reportedly do), but we could maybe also choose to hang out for a while in the love that is the collective....

Oh well, no sign of any shortcuts yet it seems.....

I've had experiences which told me that there is no such thing as a particular moment of time.

Some sources of information say that all periods of time happen in the same now. Therefore,  something like the civil war is happening now, not yesterday as we think of yesterday.

Perhaps to experience according to "no time" is to have the ability to look at a beautiful painting in its entirety, rather than brush stroke by brush stroke. When we look at the painting stroke by stroke, sometimes it doesn't seem as if it is coming together. When we see the completed painting, we see the perfected end. Regarding additional changes, does anybody want to make alterations to the Mona Lisa? Regarding even the Mona Lisa getting boring, can one get bored experiencing infinite perfection?

Plus, if you think about it, we never actually experience movement through time. Each instant we experience a still frame photo that is the result of the various stimuli we perceive and our interpretations of this stimuli. An illusion of movement is experienced. Consider a movie. If individual frames are shown quickly enough, we get the illusion of movement.

Vajra said: Thank you for going to so much trouble to reply Alysia!
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hello! thank u for waking me up also.
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I guess I floated those questions because it seems that the realities we create in the afterlife (at least as described by Monroe, Bruce and others here) seem very much to be replicas of what we had in life. Including time. Ranging from the belief system territories right up to the higher focus levels.
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replicas, reflections. this brings to my mind a thought of the heavens versus the Earth planes; I think of our spiritual dyslexia. we naturally get confused which came first the chicken or the egg idea. Spirit (us) came first, the Earth reflects the heavens in distorted manner, yet a reflection it is. We are not creating what has already been created. I think its hard to get an overview of humanity without engaging the We are One conceptualization.
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It strikes me as odd that having found ourselves in a state of existence where mind creates all and where our reality can be whatever we want it to be (?) that we should go ahead and replicate a version of worldly life. (complete with a non-physical replication of our earthly senses so that we can enjoy it!)
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not all of us are simply on a lark here. this is hard work creating our own realities, god never said to me not to have a bit of fun as I go either. u seem like a very hard worker Vajra. we must learn to play also.
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It's a bit like going on vacation to an exotic destination and insisting on eating in McDonalds and reading newspapers from home while closeted in the hotel room because they are familiar.
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I see you're a pioneer. good comment.
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Yet the dropping of the body in the afterlife could be read as implying an opportunity to temporarily return to God, Love, the absolute, to unity, to the no-time reality  - we as you say Alysia get glimpses of it in this life while in elevated states of consciousness. (although we can't make much sense of it because we relate to it as you say via our earthly sensorium)

;) I was I guess in a roundabout way wondering if somehow in the afterlife we maybe have the capability to do more than eat in McDonalds. Wondering if possibly after an initial 'getting comfortable' period in an earth like reality that we might go on to relate in a more engaged manner with the absolute? (which would imply a whole new sensorium)
http://www.earthlypursuits.com/WLLDM/WLLDMan.htm  I found this link very enlightening as to how it was to transition, as a former minister did here, during a time of war upon the Earth; he describes his attachment to earthly concerns through the pen of Elsa Barker in 1915. his descriptions of the afterlife areas are varied and highly believable, in line with my own explorations and experiences. Personally I find it difficult to believe that upon transition I would be somehow given a whole new sensorium if I had not done my homework on Earth plane.
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Signs are that this is not the case, at least for most of us. It seems (as taught in differing ways by Monroe and Buddhism) that we are in fact so attached to the earth system and sensorium (maybe that's the big meaning of ego?) that despite the potential we're not really able to transcend it. Meaning that we somehow find our way through to rebirth without ever having done so - without ever truly escaping our earth bound limits, without truly experiencing love and the absolute.
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this is a tad pessimistic, I am a born optimist so we fit together well here. heres my personal comment, due to looking at my life only. first, we get to feeling so small and of no consequence, this is human nature, that we do not embrace humanity so we don't experience love or joy and the afterlife areas can look glum or boring also..pause for a station break  :) I just picked up a message for you..you are under the purple ray of transmutation using this board to transmute yourself into your higher self. u do achieve what u set out to do.  back to myself  :-?  if u help but one single person in your life along their struggle, this is what they say on the other side produces light and love within your soul. this could mean smiling at the grocery clerk to get them out of a bad mood, or it could mean something like loving your spouse to help them also, or it could mean being a leader in some area that you are gifted with. all acts of love are maximal and take courage.
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If this latter is the case then the 'forgetting' you mention maybe does amount to some sort of necessary (but only partial) stripping away of ego and obscuration to give us a clearer overview of our past and previous lives, and to ensure that the choice of a new life will take account of this insight. (maybe a broader way of looking at the meaning of karma)
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we need to look at karma differently, not as punishment, but as a design we undertook for the  experience, but also we are always becoming, in the act of that, and surely we don't know where we are going unless we look at where we've been, (joke coming) sorry  :-/  just when we think we've found it, somebody moves it. this an old hippie joke. regarding this ego stripping outlook seems related to TMI's belief system crash concept; whereby every time I enter a conflicted area within myself I feel a part of me to die, or crash. I feel stripped as you say. I just read an interesting article yesterday that we should be gentle with ourselves when this occurs of the feeling of something is dying. the ego is seen as the inner child. I thought this was an excellent representation of the ego. in this article we are not to see ego as bad, but rather as a child which we would pay attention to and nurture. http://www.nibiruancouncil.com/html/inner_child_blocking_ascension.htm
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Your point about the power of love to transcend ego (presumably because when we finally become able to live from PUL there's no obscuration or selfish motivation left) is central too.
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right. someone pointed out to me once that it is in selfish interest to love. I agree but the difference is that the other benefits from your being so selfish to get such pleasure out of loving them.
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Maybe it's upon reaching this PUL state/dropping of ego that our attachment to the earth life system ends - and opens the way out of McDonalds.
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I think u r right that attachments change and that PUL causes a newness to arrive in all facets of our being, so in that sense, a life of practicing acts of random kindness, could in potential grant a new sensorium, but we shouldn't think that we need to wait for death of the body to achieve this, otherwise we are/would be, always in a state of waiting for the arrival of the newness to arrive when maybe its right in front of us. btw, thanks for the new word sensorium. this site has underlined the word as spelled wrong, but the dictionary says its right. seems to be a word related to the nervous system according to one dictionary.
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Which would mean that since we were no longer driven by attachment rebirth would become optional - we could choose to be reborn to help others (as the Tibetan Rinpoches reportedly do), but we could maybe also choose to hang out for a while in the love that is the collective....
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that link I gave you agrees, we spend time in regeneration on the other side before deciding upon another journey in conjunction with our group. the other players in your life are a part of you so they figure in there with your plans, yet a soul does gravitate to other players too to form new groups and soul projects. my guides told me I had more choices available now that I finished my karma/design with my parents. the elation of enlightenment process is the knowing theres more choices now for self expression.
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Oh well, no sign of any shortcuts yet it seems
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welcome to armchair spirituality  :) I like your style anyway.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/7d2a8dee.jpg

I gotta get off this puter look what happened to me when my ego died!
love, alysia

I'm inclined to side with Recoverer in this one.  But only because the phenomenology of time as a "thing-in-itself" (ding an sich) is necessarily cumulative over its past moments. Georg Hegel's transcendental phenomenology seems to apply here.

Anyway, my adult life now still carries forward, in a very real way, my instant of birth. And, for that matter, you and I and all the rest of the world carry forward, in a similarly real manner, the instant of creation. We don't usually think of it this way because we only look at immediate changes, as opposed to the entire schema.

However, once we get used to the fact that time is a single instant of Now, we also need to get used to the idea that time is a way to measure the separation of events by which the Now presents itself - some events close by, some not, and all can be expressed as simultaneous, but offset by passage of light for a specific interval, by which we measure both space and time, depending upon whether we look at a yardstick or a clock, or both at once according to a probability distribution of manifestations. It seems that we have all the time we want, or none of it - either-or as well as both-and. (Back to the Diamond Sutra, hey Vajra).

d

Thank you again Alysia. I have to take a while to do some reading on those links.  ::) Pardon my dragging you into a big long answer again - it's true, I am a bit serious. But as genuine as I'm able..

Your post Dave perhaps shows that my thinking about the timeless absolute wasn't quite right. I was seeing it as a sort of phase change, or new dream. But what you say implies that as usual there's nothing 'separate' or different about our reality.

The issue is just the way the we're wired to perceive. On time the import I guess of what you say is that if our clock speed (rate of perceiving) and our perspective was changed so that we could scan all of time in an instant then time and distance would seem to compress. (? - have I got it right)

Infinitely speeded up the whole spread of time and space would seem like an instant, a now.

'Now' is essentially a measure of time anyway......

Vajra -
It isn't that you were incorrect, but that there are multiple truths, so to say. Like all the rest of our universe, there is often more than one way to see things, and all the alternatives, even though exclusive, are true.

Sit on the center of the clock face, where the hands pivot. For you, time is just a matter of which direction to look in. Sit on the tip of the hands and time is a flow with no constancy. Both are valid, as are intermediate points.

This is one of those multiple parallel realities. Another simple example of exclusive parallel universes Hold up one hand. Count your fingers - one, to, three, four, five. OK, that is one pathway through the "finger counting continuum". Now start counting at a different finger - Voila! You are now in a parallel universe. Same thing, just a different, and exclusive, universe to do it in. There are 5! (five-factorial  -  5!=1*2*3*4*5=120) different paralel universes within the "finger counting space".

This is a bit like Nargarjuna's logic of both negation and affirmation simultaneously, Both-And plus Neither-Nor. :-)

Of course the separations amongst the universes are always based on where our mind places us - but it's just the same stuff in different terms for time or space or whatever.

d

recoverer wrote on Oct 1^st, 2007 at 12:18pm:

I've had experiences which told me that there is no such thing as a particular moment of time. Some sources of information say that all periods of time happen in the same now. Therefore,  something like the civil war is happening now, not yesterday as we think of yesterday. Perhaps to experience according to "no time" is to have the ability to look at a beautiful painting in its entirety, rather than brush stroke by brush stroke. When we look at the painting stroke by stroke, sometimes it doesn't seem as if it is coming together. When we see the completed painting, we see the perfected end. Regarding additional changes, does anybody want to make alterations to the Mona Lisa? Regarding even the Mona Lisa getting boring, can one get bored experiencing infinite perfection? Plus, if you think about it, we never actually experience movement through time. Each instant we experience a still frame photo that is the result of the various stimuli we perceive and our interpretations of this stimuli. An illusion of movement is experienced. Consider a movie. If individual frames are shown quickly enough, we get the illusion of movement.

 Well said Albert...(bllllpppphhhppphh!!!!!!!)  ;)  8-)

;D A bit hard on the head!!!

I guess what you guys are saying (as was I in my convoluted way) is that as Einstein figured out ages ago - how you perceive time and space depends very much on your viewpoint. Arguably the viewer in C1 is fixed in the now, and reality (both space and time) moves around him/her.

But alternate states of consciousness bring into play (maybe through quantum effects an creativity of the mind) the possibility of many more viewpoints in terms of scale, speed of time, location, additional dimensions and heaven knows what else.

The one thing that's fairly clear is that while it's nice (mind/consciousness expanding) to speculate it's important to stay light and open on this stuff - forming rigid views (beliefs) as to what's out there is likely to be counter productive - to become just another belief system we need to free ourselves of...

right. no rigidity here!  :) one must bend like the willow when the storm hits..I usually preface stuff with "in my opinion" or the claims here are not necessarily the opinion of the management so don't sue me..
its best to only speak from your own personal experiential type reflections, but sometimes reading another's book, you can feel like you have merged with that book and it's like that experience becomes merged with your experience.
its my opinion we very seldom can pass on what we know for a fact, because what we experienced is not what the other person experienced, many paths, one destination.

recoverer wrote on Oct 1^st, 2007 at 12:18pm:

I've had experiences which told me that there is no such thing as a particular moment of time.

 I don't fully agree with this though..  As in the example you gave, you have both the Whole of the painting, and yet the individual brush strokes that go in to make up the whole.   Both of these are equally and simultaneously real and 'true' aren't they?   If you didn't have the individual brush strokes, you wouldn't have the whole of the painting, and if you couldn't see or focus on the whole of the painting, it wouldn't be as enjoyable or as complete an experience.

 Maybe the knack, or getting the whole enchilada, is being able to perceive both simultaneously?

 I believe time is relative, relative, and slightly different or experienced so in the various dimensions.  Particularly relative to the dimension one is consciously concentrating their conscious awareness in.    

  Time is both a continuum relating to a whole, or all time, and relative to the individual choosing to change perspective within that continuum (somewhat like Vajra talked about).    As in everything, it all relates back to the two basic truths, and principles of Creation, there is the Whole, and the individual, both being equally true and eternal experiences in an objective sense.   And everything is related to, or relative to the dance between the two.  When one concentrates more on one, at the expense of the other, imbalance is fostered and our overall perception and understanding becomes limited.

 In general, the West has over emphasized the individuality and active, individual creating aspect of Creation, and the East has over emphasized the Oneness, passive, and 'void' aspect of Creation.   One is the archetypal Masculine, and the other the archetypal Feminine.  Neither is better or more true than the other, yet they are different, and yet they are part of a Whole.  
  Argghh, this is what happens one i don't eat breakfast or lunch, over long and boring preaching sermons.  

I meant to say I welcome your return here Justin but I overlooked it the first time. ah, this is a gem of a statement: u said:
In general, the West has over emphasized the individuality and active, individual creating aspect of Creation, and the East has over emphasized the Oneness, passive, and 'void' aspect of Creation.   One is the archetypal Masculine, and the other the archetypal Feminine.  Neither is better or more true than the other, yet they are different, and yet they are part of a Whole.
then us said this:    
  Argghh, this is what happens one i don't eat breakfast or lunch, over long and boring preaching sermons.
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well I hope you don't eat breakfast anymore if u r going to serve us up some of your thoughts which are not boring, so you are going to have to continue going to humor class just like me.  :)

Thank you.


wrote on Oct 4^th, 2007 at 1:42am:

recoverer wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:18pm: I've had experiences which told me that there is no such thing as a particular moment of time. Some sources of information say that all periods of time happen in the same now. Therefore,  something like the civil war is happening now, not yesterday as we think of yesterday. Perhaps to experience according to "no time" is to have the ability to look at a beautiful painting in its entirety, rather than brush stroke by brush stroke. When we look at the painting stroke by stroke, sometimes it doesn't seem as if it is coming together. When we see the completed painting, we see the perfected end. Regarding additional changes, does anybody want to make alterations to the Mona Lisa? Regarding even the Mona Lisa getting boring, can one get bored experiencing infinite perfection? Plus, if you think about it, we never actually experience movement through time. Each instant we experience a still frame photo that is the result of the various stimuli we perceive and our interpretations of this stimuli. An illusion of movement is experienced. Consider a movie. If individual frames are shown quickly enough, we get the illusion of movement.  Well said Albert...(bllllpppphhhppphh!!!!!!!)  ;)  8-)

Ahso:

I had an experience which clearly told me that a particular moment of time or a particular location don't come into being until the creative aspect of being creates the experience of them.  The usual linear way of thinking contends that time and space are absolutes that exist before anything is created.  There isn't anything that exists independently from source being. Not even time and space.



wrote on Oct 4^th, 2007 at 12:41pm:

recoverer wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 12:18pm: I've had experiences which told me that there is no such thing as a particular moment of time.  I don't fully agree with this though..  As in the example you gave, you have both the Whole of the painting, and yet the individual brush strokes that go in to make up the whole.   Both of these are equally and simultaneously real and 'true' aren't they?   If you didn't have the individual brush strokes, you wouldn't have the whole of the painting, and if you couldn't see or focus on the whole of the painting, it wouldn't be as enjoyable or as complete an experience.  Maybe the knack, or getting the whole enchilada, is being able to perceive both simultaneously?  I believe time is relative, relative, and slightly different or experienced so in the various dimensions.  Particularly relative to the dimension one is consciously concentrating their conscious awareness in.       Time is both a continuum relating to a whole, or all time, and relative to the individual choosing to change perspective within that continuum (somewhat like Vajra talked about).    As in everything, it all relates back to the two basic truths, and principles of Creation, there is the Whole, and the individual, both being equally true and eternal experiences in an objective sense.   And everything is related to, or relative to the dance between the two.  When one concentrates more on one, at the expense of the other, imbalance is fostered and our overall perception and understanding becomes limited.  In general, the West has over emphasized the individuality and active, individual creating aspect of Creation, and the East has over emphasized the Oneness, passive, and 'void' aspect of Creation.   One is the archetypal Masculine, and the other the archetypal Feminine.  Neither is better or more true than the other, yet they are different, and yet they are part of a Whole.     Argghh, this is what happens one i don't eat breakfast or lunch, over long and boring preaching sermons.

  No problem Alysia, and thanks again.

recoverer wrote on Oct 9^th, 2007 at 8:10pm:

Ahso: I had an experience which clearly told me that a particular moment of time or a particular location don't come into being until the creative aspect of being creates the experience of them.  The usual linear way of thinking contends that time and space are absolutes that exist before anything is created.  There isn't anything that exists independently from source being. Not even time and space.

 Lordy, i didn't realize i was arguing for the usual, linear way of thinking in regards to space/time...  Lol i guess saying that time/space is relative isn't clear enough?   If they are 'relative', then they are not absolute, are they?   :-?

 I was just saying that its a little more complex, and less black and white than what you said earlier about there not being any particular moment in time.   Of course it has to be taken in relation to the Whole, yet individuals are always creating and manifesting flows and patterns of vibration which create the seeming, subjectively and yet collectively experienced movement we call "time" or space.   Here because of the particular density, and super slow vibrating nature of the energies, it seems the most 'linear'.

 In the God head, or Source being awareness, the vibratory energies are so fast that they seem completely still, but even then, its not "no time", but rather All time, which seems like no time or rather no linear time.  

 But that one moment is different than another, for any freewilled, individual consciousness existing within the Whole, is what i would call 'self evident' for any and all to see and experience, what stumps so many is holding the necessary balance and simultaneous perception that all moments of experience are different and unique, and yet at the same 'time' completely connected and contained within a Whole.    It's the awareness of unique individuality and yet Oneness, which manifests the perception of relativity of most experience and force.

 It's the eternal dance of the Yin and the Yang, contained within the complete Whole which is both, and yet neither.   If this sounds overly mystical, well i just can't say or explain it any better using words.  

 I guess the best way to put it, is that time is whatever you need it to be in the moment.  Sometimes we need to experience complete stillness, and other times we need to experience movement, and many shades of in between to different ratios and balances and eventually we all will completely balance and merge the two within, and then know the real reality of the Creator, which likewise is eternally still and yet always moving and expanding...


 Just don't get hung up on one or the other, and one being more right or true than the other...this is the major schism between the East and West, the schism in action between feminine and masculine polarities, it's imbalance, and imbalance cannot lead one to re-union with the Creator consciousness cause to be repetitive and redundant, like attracts and begets like ever....   We all who still have ego, who have not completely transcended the physical like Yeshua has, see-saw between the polarities within and without self.

 What is one of the first thing that Bob noticed about He/She and this person's energy...that they were completely balanced between the masculine and feminine....   Look not to those who are still immersed in the dream, whether "nonphysical" or physical, look to those who have transcended, only these can fully and accurately point the way.   Particularly the first returned one, well knows how to lead the way back to reality.

I tend to agree in principle that the issue is balance of a sort, but I am a bit skeptical whether it is in this specific world that we'll find it.

Most of the above thread has looked at two different aspects of time. One aspect is experiential, which is ultimately valid to the subjective, so long as we attach to this universe, and so long as we attach only to our present role as inhabitants, rather than creators.

The other aspect is time-in-itself, which is a construct, and has no ultimate existence in an absolute sense. This latter aspect bleeds off into our own experience through Special Relativity, which suggests a role as we begin to get creative - although I believe that this is just an artifact, personally. The idea is that as something moves faster and faster, it experiences a reduced rate of passage of time, until at the speed of light the moving object experiences no time at all, while the other parts of the world seem to be involved in passing time at an infinite rate. This, however, reduces to the idea of a universe with specific properties.

We often view time as a "dimension". In this sense, a "dimension" is usually thought of as one of the collection of vectors that locate something in a continuum. Further, all the "basic dimensions" (literally the basis vectors) lie at right angles to one another, by which we mean that what we do to dimension X has nothing to do with what happens to dimensions Y or Z. The two are incommensurable, can't be brought together as correlates.

We view dimensions as spatial because of our fixation on visual effects. However, my evening at a restaurant recently brought forth two enchiladas and a chile relleno who had dimensions of peppery to taste, high temperature, and an appetizing tomato sauce color - all three being dimensions that are incommensurable. We could add the background music as another dimension. Thus, not all dimensions are spatial, even when we use spatial terms to describe things.

Time is certainly incommensurable with all spatial measures, and just about everything else. In that regard it appears dimensional. However, it appears as a direction, and not as a continuum in which we measure the space by walking back and forth along the stretch of a century or two with a tape measure.

If we look at the causes of time, things look different. Logic demands that aggregates be composed of substituent parts, and these of further substituents, all the way back to the Beginning. As Bishop Berkeley argued, were this not true, then the stuff arriving ex nihilo would occur outside our continuum of experiences because it would share nothing with us. In this sense, time is the "distance" between formation of the predecessor terms, and the formation of subsequent aggregations. Thus, time has an absolute ordinal nature. It is an expression of causal seriality.

The reason that I view our experiences of time as artificial, as locally composed opinions, is that motion through our universe alters the appearance of the passage of time according to a ticking clock. As I drive to work, I am experiencing time at a slightly slower rate than the guy standing on the corner. But the airplane flying overhead experiences it at still another rate.

Sitting at the center of the face of the Cosmic Clock, I am one with the wavefront of the Cosmos that expands at lightspeed, and I have no time. Then, as I move a toe to alter my posture I interact, and a temporal event occurs. Again sitting still, my time ceases, and the world around me  ages at an infinite rate, stopping abruptly when I rise and go off to the biffy for urgent business. While I only have one or two events out of all this, the people in the world around me have myriads of lifetimes. Time is not a very good way to express our relationship. And there is a decent argument to be made that only while we live inside this world will we experience it temporally as we do.

From the "God point", the world is cast forth as a succession of aggregates, each giving rise to the next, so that we have ordinality. But there is no need for time in the usual sense of everyday experience. The causal connection between instants of creation is defined as a sequence. That sequence is defined within a single instant, just as a line can be drawn between two points in a sequential manner, yet is defined as a line in a single instant, regardless of the manner in which it is realized. I have found this to be frustrating in the extreme, as I tried to measure the rate at which God build our world, but in the end, it all seems to resolve into a matter of viewpoint.

Interestingly, it seems that we might totally do away with the notion of both time and space and replace them by expressions of probability. These capture both the sequential nature of dependent origination of events, and the somewhat arbitrary experiences we have as we move our viewpoint through the world. It also gets rid of the idea that there is a fixed, well-defined, collocation of lumpy stuff with equally rigid relationships. Instead, we get Alysia's world, infinite freedom within which we have attached to this or that, but not in any totally absolute sense. (It also leads to some really fascinating equations!)

d

hey there Dave, did i hear my name mentioned?  :) I find alysia's world fascinating but often have to make sure I'm taking care of business..like paying bills and what not.

I like to look at the universe the same way u mentioned as a series of possibilities and probabilities. this is what I derived from the Seth material, and from the Elias material, I learned it's ok to quit a bad paying job.

Time is everyones most valued topic of interest, and Starry eyed was prompted to pose the question to this most wondrous board of sharers, cosmic travelers and ordinary engineers who are posing as engineers but are really angels.

Dave, help me out. this is a world of objectivity. when we are born into flesh, then there is always an objective type of consciousness looking out through the eyeballs.

what kind of consciousness has no objectivity anymore? I know it exists because the opposite of objectiveness in a duality world must exist.
and I am not trying to lead anyone to think in terms of how awful non objectivity would be. I also might add, it would be impossible to remain in non objectivity and still remain on the earth plane in physical.
I think I'm talking about nirvana, or a state of non-desire. perhaps it would be the 7th state of consciousness of the spirit evolving out of physicality.

objective consciousness is like incarnating with an intention to fulfill. to say, to find the color of your parachute.

the only thing I can think of to say about it, I was interested in those I retrieve, that they have no objective, but seem stuck in their own world, which repeats it's scenes, until they are assisted out of the scenes. time has stopped there for them and repeats itself. perhaps we will not fully understand this until we actually enter their world, or transistion ourselves, as you said.

love to all! what a group..I simply can't keep up! alysia

Seems to me, Alysia, that you have it pretty well under control. We get born, and that is both the cause of attachment, and also its result.  Time and space come along with birth because that's how we define being born.  But if we aren't born, then we can have it any way we might find it at the moment.

The image that makes most sense to me personally is that we sit in voidness, our own nature being pure potentiality that has so structured itself that it is aware (as well as myriads of other ways in which it is structured) and through this awareness we watch the play of pretty colors, blinking lights, and wonderful images. Because we simply watch this stuff roll by, we don't get changed permanently by it. Like jumping upwards, we fall downwards again, and everything remains in the same state in the long run. It's only when we get interested (attached) and seek to follow some line of reasoning or experiencing that we are hooked into a "reality". This is a common experience for most of us, as we look out the window of a vehicle and idly watch the scenery flow past. We basically don't give a hoot unless something catches our eye - like a car wreck, a burning building, or some impromptu nudists skinny dipping in a local creek etc. And then we are hooked - back to another rebirth.

This is a very ancient concept. One place we can find it is in an old Chinese folk tale "Monkey", where (in the Wu Ch'ung En rendition) Monkey explains,

I scheme no schemes,
I hatch no plots.
Fame and shame are one to me.
Those I meet along the way
Are immortals, one and all,
Who whisper from their quiet thrones
The secrets of the Yellow Court.

Strange how the most obvious can be the least understood.

d

like I asked my son in law once, why are u climbing that mountain over yonder?

because it's there he said.  :-/

but what in the world is "yellow court?"

intellectual judgment?

thanks Dave. a good teach like yourself just brings up more questions. love, alysia

The "Yellow Court" is a Taoist reference to the Empirial Court of the Jade Emperor who sits enthroned in Heaven where he regulates the motions of the sun and stars, as well as matters on Earth.

At the same time, there is an experience in deep meditation in which one discovers oneself in a situation which is totally self-created - following one's desires to have it this way or that way or any other way. That is to say, the surrounding reality follows one's every whim, as if an extension of the inner mind. The nature of the surrounding world appears to be projected, and at one moment it appears to include all of reality, and yet seems totally unreal, as there is any kind of world one desires to experience. This is one of the forms of sarvastarka samadhi, and for some reason, perhaps because it deals with elemental Earth, it appears as yellow or golden.

The highest meditation, nirvastarka samadhi, requires us to get rid of the "Yellow Court" and all the other trappings of a potentially mundane projection of self, so that we merge back into total potentiality, but about that I can say nothing because from where I sit today, it simply isn't visible.

The "Yellow Court" notion is classical Taoism, which I have never studied. However, the notion of a place from which we project our own reality is very much a part of the whole spiritual process. I'm reminded of Bruce's "little finger bending exercise" in which we get in touch with the power of personal will. Perhaps, as I would argue for it,  the "Yellow Court" image is the distillation  of the causal authority of the soul, which we experience everyday in more common choices.

All of this seems to me to be leading back to the question of freedom. From the point of causality, one certainly seems to be free when projecting worlds and universes galore. While we are conditioned as individual actors within the world, and liable to karma so long as we retain any attachments, we also act as the hands and fingers of the wavefront of Creation, and in that role we necessarily act without limit in locus Deii - even if unaware of it. Viewed in that sense, the "Yellow Court" would appear to be last place we could get trapped. But who wants to be Emperor of the Universe anyway?

I wonder if they could trade dim sum for crumpets ... ;-)

dave

thanks again Dave..although now I have another question.. ;) what is locus deii?

I know it's not the local deli.  :D

I'm still eating food over here so I guess I'm not ascended yet.. ;D love to all and to all a good nite.

I have an 'Idea'.  It is not original by any means....(and I haven't read all of the posts in this thread)

My Idea is this: Why not have a Past Life Regression session and 'see' what is 'time' in the Afterlife?  

I have been wanting to do this myself for many reasons. One reason is to 'see myself' between carnations in the Spirit/Soul realms. What my duties/goals/desires/etc are all about.

I also want the hypnotis to put in a suggestion to 'remember' my dreams and Astral Projections/lucid dreams better.

EDIT: By the way this seems to be my first post here. Hello All. I have been lurking a some 'time' now...hehe! :)

In locus deii - bad Latin for "in the place (person) of God." Sorry. But in the spirit of Rabbelais, "non catchibus, non castigus" - ;-)

Old Dood-

I do PLRs as a standard office routine, and there seems to be nothing but a sequential organization of the type in which "A comes before B". It is possible to slide backwards up the time line to return to prior events, or to slide forward to view the future in some form, although there are a great many alternative futures to be viewed. There is also an excellent argument, based on PLR experience, that we do not always live in calendrical order - but occasionally we jump from today to a time in the past, or the future, and occasionally in a limited form, while a more advanced future form remains "on hold". For example, one person reported becoming a rabbit briefly, as an educational experience dealing with a life as a miner in which she had lost a child. Then she went on with another life in the caves and mines.

I've been told that the universe started as a single "event" by one person who went there to look, and whether for good or ill, Los Angeles has been seen to be happy and well in about the year 2200.

My personal suspicion is that we're getting more involved with the "meaning" of time than what it actually is. But maybe that's what time essentially is, a meaning imposed arbitrarily upon suchness.

Anyhow, here's a practical suggestion - if you do a regression, get a recording, preferably video (less boring to review). Between normal memory and the recording you'll retain everything.

dave

welcome old dood. I like your logo. love, alysia