i used to think the ultimate negative possibility out of this thing called "life" is that it ceases upon breath.  i have since been trumped.  the ultimate negative possibility is actually that God not only exists, but is an evil taskmasker denying his creations free will and happiness on their own terms.

i was reading about the consequences of suicide on various sites like http://www.near-death.com/suicide.html and over and over i read "suicide solves nothing - the soul must reincarnate and deal with the same problems."  if so, that's really messed up.  why would God create souls/humans only to make them suffer if they don't want to suffer anymore?  these accounts explain that when a person commits suicide, it creates negative karma by making their family suffer and feel guilty.  umm.....  but God doesn't have to suffer or feel guilty for all the terrible circumstances humans endure???  it seems God doesn't have to live by his own law!  

on that site, Angie Fenmore's in particular is a very very Christian-oriented NDE.  at the end, God even shows her that the time of the Second Coming of Jesus is near!!!!  i refuse to believe that.  she describes God's voice "encompassed such ferocious anger that with one word it could destroy the universe."  umm, why would God be mad at the very thing he created?   it makes me wonder how much of the NDE experience is kind of "made up" to fit the beliefs of the experiencer.  i would think it was all created in the brain if i didn't know better from people's experiences with ghosts (spirits).

i thought God was supposed to give us free will, yet one person who committed suicide was told "you have to either live out the rest of your life or reincarnate and go through the same problems."  that's free will????????   doesn't sound like free will to me.  free will would be the soul being allowed to stay in heaven with everyone else if they wanted to.  some suicide NDEr's have even experienced "hell" - demons in the hospital room.  i'm starting to wonder if God is actually evil and we are just stuck in his sick twisted game.  it kind of makes sense in a way - i mean if God was pure goodness, why would he even allow evil/terrible things to exist in the first place?  in fact, why bother with humans in the first place, because they're so incredibly imperfect and have a great capacity for evil?  i'm so confused.  

also, what about all the MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people who commit "slow suicide" by drinking, not exercising or eating junk food?  why the hell do they not get treated like s*it upon death?   hell, it seems to me they're saying suiciders get treated worse than RAPISTS AND MURDERERS.

oh yeah, and at the same time these experiences say "suicide solves nothing" etc. they say "suicides are not judged by God - they judge themselves."  huh?????  why would a soul make themselves suffer more, when they just proved they can't/don't want to handle suffering???  makes no sense.

ALSO i thought God was supposed to not generate fear, and supposedly fear is the most dangerous thing on earth and all bad blah blah blah, yet what does these experiences teach in spades?  fear fear fear fear fear.  

ALSO what about all those souls they talk about that never even come to Earth in the first place???  obviously THEY don't have to reincarnate and grow past what drove them to suicide because they never had to deal with anything negative in the first place, but us eternally damned humans do??  are we condemned or something?  i thought a  person could choose not to reincarnate, but that's not what these people heard in their NDE's.

:-? It's not going to sound awfully consoling, but one way of squaring this issue is the view that it's ourselves that create the reality that causes such suffering.

At the level of ordinary life the issue is selfishness, ego, or inability to live through love. Specifically the grasping after selfish ends that it entails. Brought about by our separation from God or the true nature of mind, our higher self or the absolute. (choose according to your tradition) Which is our choice, and not enforced.

But free will means that having chosen separation we have to find our way back if that's what we want - and that's not so simple since as in the other thread the intense mental activity that's ultimately the result of the selfish ego fearing loss and death blocks the 'still small voice' that shows the way to live in love and tends to drive us deeper into delusion.

It's pretty clear that the vast majority of the suffering we experience flows from ego. Put another way - how can a society be anything but predatory when almost all its members are intent on getting ahead at the expense of others?

The unpleasantness that's not the result of this (some diseases, natural disasters etc) and which is apparently beyond our control is made much worse by our fear of death which amounts a failure to know or if we can't know to trust in the promise of our essential immortality.

This issue arises from the way we habitually mistake the ego (physical body and conscious mind - both subject to birth, old age, sickness and death) for self rather than the true or higher self or 'watcher' (soul in some traditions) that it's taught is immortal.

Even the apparently uncontrollable stuff and our total reality it is argued are the creation of the collective mind that comprises all the beings caught in this reality (samsara in Buddhism)  - that it's in a sense an imperfect creation precisely because it's not totally God's creation, and is based on selfishness rather than love.

It can be viewed as a learning experience (the more New Age view), or as a strategy for escape from delusion (the Buddhist view), but either way to get back to God (or to our true nature in Buddhist terms) essentially entails the death of ego or the end of selfish urges.

Which we mistakenly equate with true death (progress towards  dropping the ego feels much that way), when centuries of the enlightenment experience have shown that it is not.

As the ego is stripped away and we begin to live from love it starts to become clear that we in fact live in a blend of dimensions at once - that while the dog reality of the selfish view is realised if we choose to see the world through that lens and to live accordingly  - that equally when we start to live from love through our higher self we create a subtler but equally valid and much more pleasant reality.

This is not just a theoretical perspective but a totally practical one - when we start to live for others life really does change for the better - although it may take forms we might not previously have regarded as conducive to happiness. It's pretty counter intuitive given our conditioning to see things in selfish rule of the fittest terms. It's also the case that as we improve the way we live that residual karma may still be lurking around which can still cause us a lot of grief.

Even issues like illness can pretty convincingly be argued as emanating from karma or lack of wisdom in how we live, or from the way the consequences of our selfishness impact our health through the mind-body link.

So on suicide and having to re-live the lessons of life. Grace or whatever is there to help us back, but the one (almost) absolute seems to be that there's no cooking the books. We have little choice but to sort out our own mess.

Even that absolute seems to be own choice. We essentially end up split in this life - living as a selfish 'me' that does all sorts of harm - and are (following fading of the obscuration that left us unable to truly connect with our higher  self in life) confronted with this in the afterlife.

The need to unravel the resulting kinks in our psyche and/or the addictive quality (according to Robert Monroe) leads to an almost insurmountable urge to be reborn. Although Buddhism teaches that there are ways to transcend this - provided we have properly trained and our karma is not too severe.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.

Atisha (11th century Tibetan Buddhist master)

It's nothing to do with what we think, more a matter of what we are or have become. The most basic Buddhist teaching on this is the 'Four Noble Truths': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

::) Not too sure if such an intellectual sounding explanation can be of much help for what in a way is the universal angst of the human condition ....

Hi....haven't visited here for quite a while, but I felt a need to try to put forward a few alternative ideas, so you may get a wider view of why we need to experience negatives as well as positives in this life. It's to do with balance and harmony, and if we end our life because the ride is too hard, then this balance has not been achieved. We need to work at the problem a little longer, either here on this plane or in another dimension, because through this process of trial and error (in life as in anything) much is learned. We continue to grow as we gradually work towards a balanced existence. This takes many many life times, both here and in other realms...our progress towords understanding never ends. Of course 'choice' is part of this experience of growth and it takes place on various levels of consciousness constantly. We are far greater than the snippet of personality/ego/intellect that we are aware of in our daily lives. Your ranting belies your frustatration and I sympathize. Hang in there, keep asking, and know that the answers you seek will eventually satisfy you. Oh! And by the way...the most satifying answers will come from yourself...deep within you already have the knowledge.  Take care.... Lyn

I agree. That's why it is helpful to spend time in our lives on earth in meditation and finding our own connection to the universe. It is very easy to get lost in the rat race where our lives are dictated by ego urges to earn more money than our work colleagues and we are a slave to these 'wants'. This lifestyle creates a mentality of desperation that we always feel we are in competition with others. I do not believe we are in competition with others as we all have our own paths. They may be mapped out for us but we still have free will and free choice to determine our path. As far as being 'forced' to re-incarnate, the majority of sources that I trust say that noone can force us to do anything. The choice is yours. Remember that the perspective of your ego in the earth realm is quite different from that of your soul essence in realms of spirit. Where the ego is strong and fearful of moving on to the next realm that is how we have ghosts and stuck souls.

Hello, seeker. What a weight your questions carry!

See, for me, the things you have stated are obvious. Yes, life is not fair. Yes, it is not.

For the human being, we can project our imaginations ahead and behind us. We can remember all the terrible things we have witnessed. We can imagine how the future might and almost certainly must be....

How painful is that? Very painful.

But why? It is who we are in the present moment that matters. I do not assume there is a God who is kind and true. I need for there to be one.

But, as I examine myself, I see that I do not need for there to be a God to be responsible for all that I see and experience.

If God is, and this is...then I am alive. What else matters?

love, blink :)

Hi Again,

The notion of God came up in the Seeker's post....quote:

.....on that site, Angie Fenmore's in particular is a very very Christian-oriented NDE.  at the end, God even shows her that the time of the Second Coming of Jesus is near!!!!  i refuse to believe that.  she describes God's voice "encompassed such ferocious anger that with one word it could destroy the universe."  umm, why would God be mad at the very thing he created?   it makes me wonder how much of the NDE experience is kind of "made up" to fit the beliefs of the experiencer.....

I think this is a really valid point you make and it is worth considering . It seems that when many people have an ecstatic experience they need to identify with it in the only way they know how - in human terms. Most religions have endorsed this because it gives them power, but in real terms, what is God? Indeed what is the sourse of this ecstatic feeling  so many of us have experienced? Is part of our consciousness that is suddenly tuned in to higher vibrational levels?  Do those existing at these profound levels live in this state all the time? By the way, I know that this state of supreme esctasy can be expereienced in NDE, OBEs or ordinary earthbound states. It's too simple to attribute everything to the human notion of God and I think it is a pity that people like Angie cannot take us further, higher, wider, and deeper than the limits of her Christian doctrine.

I'm  privileged to have moved into this state of esctasy on more than one occation so I do understand how when we want to discuss these wonders we are limited by language, nevertheless as you say Seeker, we should all be aware that our belief system does distort our reality.

love to all

lyn

Seeker, its really difficult to be a fundamentalist Christian and a Christian mystic at the same time, you need to read between the lines when you read Christian stuff, its a bit out dated with their own interprets.

my beliefs, and I'm always testing out what I believe to see if it's true, my beliefs is that we do create our own reality. personal reality, which effects the collective realities as well.  but the only way to become effective to create your own reality is to take total responsibility for everything that happens to you, every feeling you have, every thought that comes back on you, every deed that you might see as perpetrated against yourself is something you yourself pulled in and need to figure out how you did that marvelous trick, of creating that circumstance.
many of us do not see life as a prison, au contrare, many see it as opportunity to create.
I do not see God as separate from us, I see our lives, our bodies as borrowed substance, god stuff. I see god in people because I want to see god in people, whatever you want to see, your mind will see that.
I see no coercion at all on the other side, rather brow beating is discouraged, and those that force their will upon others congregate in a particular bst area and continue their unsavory behavior, lol. thats how free we are.

on another tact; one time I was talking to god and I said god, say, I'm doing a lousy job with my life and frankly, it sucks. could you let me come home and send me a walk in? someone could do better?
then god spoke and he was not pleased: what do you think this life is?!!
A DEPARTMENT STORE where you can just exchange your purchase?

you ungrateful little snit!   :-? he didn't call me a snit. I just made that up.  :D so anyhoo, I got a revelation that day! that I had stood in line for this life. its just that it looks easier from the other side to do.
life is always a gift from the universe to them that want one. we all seem to have our 40 days and nights of the darkness to go thru though as part of our job.

its worth it. love, alysia

HEY hi Lyn!! Lyn is my exploration partner back in 2001. a wise woman.

Seeker- By the number of responses from a usually very literate group, you've obviously asked one of those embarrassingly pertinent questions that we all try to overlook. But I want to try it anyway.

As I drive down a highway, I tend to expect that even if there is a crack in the pavement, the road will continue on the other side. So I goto sleep with expectations of waking. Perhaps really big cracks like dying will be filled in with bridges - "afterlife experiences" that continue today's adventure into tomorrow. - That gives one basis for believing that more is coming, since all of us have generally been directly or indirectly exposed to soul retrieval or a similar type of spiritually oriented therapeutic activity.

But in the more general case, what you ask is very difficult to answer. I like Vajra's recitation of virtues (I'm gonna steal it to quote) - I have something of the same type over the WC in the rest room of my office where men are forced to look at it (hopefully while confining their business to the proper receptacle, rather than a shoe or the floor), and a few similar quotations on the opposite wall where ladies are equally lined up for reading as they contemplate what it is passing through their minds while otherwise passing that which remains unspoken. This is good. However, for those who look one layer deeper,  these are only useful guidelines, and not answers. It might all be smoke and mirrors, so that when the purple smoke runs out, we're done.

I'd like to  turn your attention to the physics of black holes for a moment - Maybe a fairly long moment, if you have patience.  Else, my apologies.

As we are generally aware, gravitational effects increase with the size of an object, and also as we approach an object of fixed size. The result is that an object must attain some minimum speed to overcome gravity and leap off the Earth into orbit. Black holes are big lumps of stuff that have so much gravitation that even the speed of light is insufficient to escape from them. There are also some relativistic effects that cause time to slow to a total dead stop at the edge of the "event horizon", which is the point at which gravitational effects overcome escaping light. Physicists Hawking and Penrose have argued that if we had a sufficiently large black hole, nearing the size of the universe, for example, we could fall into it and never know it. We'd just fall forever into what seemed to be an infinitely vast space.

This has caused a great deal of controversy, which is the heart of my remarks. The information by which we describe the relationships between objects can be measured and quantified, and is called "entropy". A nice paper (years ago) by a Bell Labs engineer Claude Shannon has even extended this connection to include the relationships between words, and other work (my own area) has extended it to ideas.

By definition, a relationship represents the structure of basic reality. There is nothing more abstract than the relationships by which space is defined. In fact, when we point to a place in the air, or in space as we look at the night sky, we describe it in terms of nearby objects. "There is a point in space about 10 cm above my desk, 2 cm to the right of my monitor, and a meter from the rear wall." Without nearby objects by which to define such places, we can't talk about them. They effectively have no basis to be viewed as "real".

In passing, we must also notice something called virtual particles. These are relationships that pop up in otherwise empty places, exist for a tiny moment and vanish. They define points along the relationships between objects by collecting all the entropy of that location into a single location, which appears for perhaps 10^-44 of a second as if it is another physical object, and then fades away. The collected result of this general tendency is thought to be the ultimate nature of both "dark matter" and "dark energy", which is the stuff that makes the universe expand.

So in a very realistic manner, empty space is filled with the relationships by which it defined. (This used to be called Mach's Principle, although the general cases Mach touted have been largely rejected.) Phrased concisely, space is filled with entropy.

So far so good. We have space, we have entropy by which it is defined, and we have big lumpy objects that get extremely massive and form black holes. But the black hole literally captures mass, since the core object that has all the gravity appears, from one perspective, to be receding from reality at the speed of light, and worse, it takes along with it all the space and time by which it was defined, leaving only a cold spot. (I doubt that this is exactly the same cold spot that we find in the ancient hallways of Blarney-on-the-Bog and other ancient castles, but they may be related.)

So this black hole forms, spacetime freezes and entropy is lost. With it we lose part of reality. The idea of a non-constant universe seems to be very upsetting to physicists. First, we don't know where it goes, second, we don't know where to go for a refill.  

Stephen Hawking stepped introduced a new idea to help save the universe, which is the notion of creation of reality by virtual particles. (This is where they crank up the purple smoke generators.) He suggested that a pair of ordinarily cancelling virtual particles, one positive and one negative, might be created on the edge of a black hole, and by virtue of one of the pair being trapped by the gravitation, they might be pulled apart. Thus, instead of cancellation, we suddenly have two new particles. The universe again starts to fill up.

Now, please turn your attention to the nature of the Hawking phenomenon. Notice that it occurs because of all the relationships that make up space. Ideas such as polarity, color forces of quarks, and so on, are nothing but ways to deal with entropy. In fact, matter is just a region in which the total amount of entropy is locally confined, so that what oozes out (arrowlike, not wormlike, Alysia) looks like the relationships of that location relative to other locations. Entropy is the collection of properties of matter, as well as what fills "empty" space. Gravitational and electrical fields are just patterns of the distribution of entropy of various kinds.

In exactly the same manner, our personal existences are patterns of entropy, patterns of relationships by which we are defined, and changes in relationships by which our activities are defined, and the relationships filling spaces between us and other of our kind. These have two properties of interest. First, they are rooted in Everything. Nothing is left out, nor can anything new be added, because everything can be reduced to relationships. Second, relationships are polar. That is, You relate to Me in a manner that is reciprocated by the way that I relate to You. We have to have both parts.

Now let's see what happens when I die. I take all my inner awareness and go into a sort of spacetime tunnel into the "Spirit World". In essence, there is a great similarity to a person's death and turning into a human black hole. That means that all my relationships are dragged in after me. What is left over is my "history", the memories that others have of me, the works that I have accomplished, the garbage that I generated, and the opinions of others. These focus on the place that I used to occupy, and through that space, they imply that I must still exist. However, since I have passed into an inaccessible place from which light seems not to emerge (with a few ghostly exceptions and meditative methods that bypass those limits), these relationships form a potential field of entropy, a collection of relationships by which my existence was defined, and by which it presently is recalled. These are rather like the virtual particles of Hawking's world.

In the Spirit World, I retain all of these potential relationships as well. They are the essence of my spiritual experiences and remain the essence of my identity. The Hindu calls them the "samskaras", or seeds, from which my karmas will later emerge. I usually summarize them as my "attitude", meaning the collection of my tendencies for formation of new relationships through future actions.

At this point we can see that there are two copies of the identity that once I claimed while alive. One definition is with me, as I roam otherwise empty space in spirit, and the other set remains in the world. These are similar to virtual particles of information, one of each polarity, one set in-looking, and the other set out-looking from my position. Further, these are tendencies carried by virtually everything in my universe that has time to form a relationship with me, or with my historical residues.

So when a couple of people get together and interact on a fundamental level, they can mix these tendencies together as they combine genetic material. That gives rise to new object to which all (or at least some) of my prior relationships attach. Since my existence is captured totally in my relationships and the manner in which I manipulate them, I am reborn.

And just for completeness' sake, on the universal level this suggests that when enough virtual particles get together, they too form a "white hole", an exceptionally rare event, which just might be one of the sources for "gamma ray bursters".

dave

Seeker:

There are various sources of information that show that God is not an evil task master.  I went through a period where I wondered if such a fundalmentalist way of thinking is true.  At the time it surprised me to find that such thought patterns were still hanging around within the basement of my awareness. I figured out the answer after I asked myself, "If I can be loving and wise enough to see that a fire and brimstone approach is wrong and doesn't make sense,  wouldn't God and other beings of light be able to do the same?" I figured that I need to give such beings a lot more credit than fundamentalists tend to give them.

Greetings,

This part of the reply, Seeker, is most related to Vajra's ideas, I suppose:
Your question leads to this possibility---
that we chose some difficult lessons for our souls in this life, because we were
thinking that the physical side of life is being more easily dealt with at this 'time.'
We look around and think it  all should be easier, but we are basing our values
on the material side, thinking that just because we have 'plenty,' we are in good
shape, so why should we suffer.
But the point we are being taught is that
soul's needs differ from our material needs
and we cannot rely on relative physical well-being
to satisfy the soul.
Also I'm wonderring if the term 'free will' must  not  mean 'free everything'
or even 'free every choice.'
It must mean something less ego-based. Will apparently has its limits, and maybe
Will is useful only within those limits, perhaps only related to ego and not to soul.

In other words, we've got a misunderstanding here instead of a true conflict.

Well, you are getting a variety of responses!  :)

Betson  

dave_a_mbs wrote on Oct 15^th, 2007 at 3:32pm:

(Perhaps this has already been hinted by French physicists who observed "Les troux noirs n'ont pas de poil." but that seems to be a matter of preference these days.) :-) dae

Trust you to answer the question with an in-depth metaphor comparing  Hawking's theories of happennings at the "event horizons" at the entrance to black holes to A. human relationships in a couple and B. to a two-way split between  between what of us moves on elsewhere at death and what stays behind, and C.  to a theory of how we are reborn)  ;) You are so intellectual! I found it quite interesting though, when I  saw what you were driving at  - especially the "B." bit.  BTW what does "Black holes are not hairy" have to do with it?  :-?

However, although you started off by saying you were going to address what seemed to be a taboo topic, you didn;t really seem to go into Seeker's hypothesis that the universe is actually run by a hard-taskmaster who deliberately makes things difficult for us for some perverse reason... (isn't that something like what some of the Gnostics thought - that Jevohah, the creator God of the OT, did create this world, but he's actually an evil usurper and the true God is only interested in Spirit, to which we yearn to return, while being trapped here?). One might sometimes think so, and God doesn;t always seem to behave as Jesus said in the "ask and it shall be given" part.. (I guess he just knows better than us and moves in mysterious ways...)

I hope that's not the case! and I prefer to hold on to the idea that the bad stuff in life is supposed to teach us something - even if sometimes the lessons seem hard and unwelcome.

Oh... I see about the trous noirs and the matter of preference  :o  but still not quite sure what the French physicists were talking about or how it relates to your theory about being reborn  :-/

One way out of the 'purple smoke' or ultimate reality conundrum Dave mentions is the PUL experience during meditation. It's variously reported and differing terms are used but one description might be a sense of being space - with lots of light around, little sense of self and this incredible feeling of being love or being loved.

It's not even slightly intellectual or thought based, is wholly experiential and can be very convincing as an indicator that we're a lot more than the physical body and discursive mind. It tends to still a lot of the urge to try to intellectually make sense of it - it just is.

That's not to say that afterwards in weaker moments when the mind gets cranked up again that we can necessarily remain free of doubt or of the urge to try to validate it by intellectual means, but it's pretty effective.

It could I suppose be a purely physical/brain induced phenomenon (what if it turns out that enlightenment is just some sort of reboot of the physical brain??) but it doesn't feel that way...

I have the same angered feelings as seeker does!! To add on to that, I would have to say why would God let people create their own reality in the next life?? Like say a Good person that loved  God and tried their best to do the right thing.. Thinks he or she is going to hell because they didn't match up to Jesus.. So, since must near deaths are what people expect that is what that person will end up getting... Than a evil person that hates everyone, believes they are going to heaven.. That evil person gets heaven, while the other  good person gets hell.. How is that fair??? I think that is a sick joke, if you ask me!!! I'm not saying I want the evil person to go to hell or anything like that.. I want everyone go to heaven.. But what I am trying to say is what is the deal with people having to go through hellish afterlifes, when they were good people and they just feared of going to hell.. It makes no sense.. What really ticks me off, is people like me with OCD, have thoughts of going to hell everyday/night non stop.. I try to stop the thoughts, but they won't go away!!!!!!!!! They say well atheists have near deaths of hell of fire and darnation.. So, that goes against the logic that thoughts create your reality in the next life.. So, that means there really is a hell .. Than the other part of me says no, that atheist had thoughts about hell in the back of his or her mind.. So, it's a lose/lose situation for me and others like myself.. Well it's good there is no real hell, but than I still have the chance of going to hell, by thinking I will go there.. Plus, I can't see a loving God creating such a torture chamber for eternity.. So, I say it has to be thoughts become real in the afterlife..

Why can't God just greet us all and let the illusions go to hell themselves and not us!!! We weren't ask to be created either.. So, we had no free will choice to live or not!! That just ticks me off too, God creates me so I can think I'm going to hell, and then God can watch me in hell, until I realize it's just an illusion.. How can someone realize it's an illusion, when it's so real and people preach about hell being real all the time.. I"M SO SCREWED!! I literally hate God..




So, if I go to hell for just thinking I will go there, God can kiss my arse!!!

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2007 at 5:53pm:

One way out of the 'purple smoke' or ultimate reality conundrum Dave mentions is the PUL experience during meditation. hat way...

I'm not sure to what extent I've experienced this. I guess the odd fleeting moment, but no major "cosmic consciousness type experiences. Then again I am not a great meditator. I have experimented with a few types but am not not entirely convinced of the benefits or maybe not found the right method (I was most disillusioned by TM, for example, and consider it a bit of a scam to be honest - also the technique, which is not a "focus" type but more of a "drifting off" type probably did me more harm than good in my mental and physical state, I believe) . As has been said before, "meditation"seems to mean different things to different people, also while some will see it as essential, others think it is not at all, like Elizabeth Kubler Ross who used to say she'd had all sorts of mystical experience without ever sitting down and meditating, and while eating meat and drinking coffee and alcohol , and not being anything like the typical mystic or yogi..

By the way, how do you interpret these moments of bliss, or judge their significance?  Do you see it as a taste of what you would feel all the time if you were enlightened?

briggsandurlacher

I think you are right to get these opinions off your chest; there should not be many taboos in spiritual debate, I think. Another thing EKR used to say was it was healthy to express strong emotion when you wanted to and not bottle things up! Perhaps you might see more positive outlooks later on when you have worked through these feelings

orlando123 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2007 at 6:22pm:

briggsandurlacher I think you are right to get these opinions off your chest; there should not be many taboos in spiritual debate, I think. Another thing EKR used to say was it was healthy to express strong emotion when you wanted to and not bottle things up! Perhaps you might see more positive outlooks later on when you have worked through these feelings

Thanks man it feels great to get these feeling off my chest.. You are right it is best to release anger in a postive way.. Instead of bottling it up!!

Hopefully, I will find my true feelings of love about God..

peace

No problem; I hope so too  :)  Also, I am sure he is big enough to not take the odd rant too personally

briggsandurlacher3:

Perhaps you're accusing God of something he never did.  It is also very possible that you're forgetting what part you took in taking on this incarnation. Many sources say we choose our incarnation. We do so with the understanding of what an incarnation entails. That being the case, why have sour grapes?

Also, where we end up is more a matter of our overall psyche. Consider an experience I had years ago. I was an atheist at the time. If somebody tried to tell me that God and the afterlife existed, there is no way I would listen. I believed science had all the answers.

Nevertheless, one night, because of grace, I had what I refer to as a night in heaven experience.  I found myself in a realm where the happiness level was wonderful. The happiness we seek througout our lives but never quite find.  During this experience I understood without a shadow of the doubt that God (not in an old man in the sky sense) and afterlife exist. Not only did I understand this,  I understood how it is possible without even having to think about it.  It was like, "Oh yeah!" It was such a relief. I understood that in the end everything works out wonderfully for everybody. I also understood that Christ is a big part of it, but not in a dogmatic sense. I didn't see nor hear him. Nor did I ask about him.  However, I did understand that his and God's presence pervaded the realm I was in.

When it comes to who Christ is and what his role is, I don't believe it is like fundamentalists contend. You better believe or else. Certainly beings who live according to love and don't have their minds fettered with non-sensical limiting ideas, aren't looking for people to throw stones at. They understand that we live in a World where all kinds of belief systems are possible.

Consider my case, I didn't believe, yet I found my self in a heavenly realm. Why was this possible? Because even though I didn't believe in a particular way, I was basically a good hearted person. Therefore, it was my heart that enabled me to experience a heaven like realm. Not my beliefs.  During this experience I didn't say, "No, no, no, I don't want to believe in God, Christ and the afterlife." The truth of what I experienced was so real, certain and wonderful, there was no need to argue.

Each of us has false ideas in our own way.  That's just how things work out in this World. But this is okay, because it is the amount of love we live according to that mostly determines where we go. If we spend our life as a negative minded person, the overall energetic we create will determine where we go. If we spend our life as a loving person, our positive energetic will transport us to a positive place.

There might be some instances where a person's belief/beliefs temporarilly interfere with where he or she ends up. Fortunately there are lots of light beings who help spirits who get stuck.  Some helpers are in the physical. I know about the later through my own experience with retrievels.  Regarding whether they are real, all I can say is that a person has to venture into the retrievel business for his or herself, before he or she can become certain. Regarding whether a person deludes his or herself about the matter, this is a matter of how honest a person is when they discriminate the matter.  Regarding whether there are enough retrievers, I've found that there are ways where many spirits can be retrieved without involving a lot of physical people.

Regarding it not being fair that some people get stuck for a while, if we're going to have the freedom for self determination rather than being controlled like a bunch of puppets or being programmed like automatons, the shortcomings of the free will system have to be accepted as unvoidable parts of the creation process.

Jimney Crickets! When you die, just remember to look for the light and call out for help. You don't have to worry about going to hell because one fragment of your mind is based on memories collected while listening to false teachings.  






briggsandurlacher3 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2007 at 6:03pm:

I have the same angered feelings as seeker does!! To add on to that, I would have to say why would God let people create their own reality in the next life?? Like say a Good person that loved  God and tried their best to do the right thing.. Thinks he or she is going to hell because they didn't match up to Jesus.. So, since must near deaths are what people expect that is what that person will end up getting... Than a evil person that hates everyone, believes they are going to heaven.. That evil person gets heaven, while the other  good person gets hell.. How is that fair??? I think that is a sick joke, if you ask me!!! I'm not saying I want the evil person to go to hell or anything like that.. I want everyone go to heaven.. But what I am trying to say is what is the deal with people having to go through hellish afterlifes, when they were good people and they just feared of going to hell.. It makes no sense.. What really ticks me off, is people like me with OCD, have thoughts of going to hell everyday/night non stop.. I try to stop the thoughts, but they won't go away!!!!!!!!! They say well atheists have near deaths of hell of fire and darnation.. So, that goes against the logic that thoughts create your reality in the next life.. So, that means there really is a hell .. Than the other part of me says no, that atheist had thoughts about hell in the back of his or her mind.. So, it's a lose/lose situation for me and others like myself.. Well it's good there is no real hell, but than I still have the chance of going to hell, by thinking I will go there.. Plus, I can't see a loving God creating such a torture chamber for eternity.. So, I say it has to be thoughts become real in the afterlife.. Why can't God just greet us all and let the illusions go to hell themselves and not us!!! We weren't ask to be created either.. So, we had no free will choice to live or not!! That just ticks me off too, God creates me so I can think I'm going to hell, and then God can watch me in hell, until I realize it's just an illusion.. How can someone realize it's an illusion, when it's so real and people preach about hell being real all the time.. I"M SO SCREWED!! I literally hate God.. So, if I go to hell for just thinking I will go there, God can kiss my arse!!!

Hi Briggsy. My thoughts are with you on this, and for sure it's correct to express what you feel. Suppression or denial only drive stuff below consciousness to where it can't be worked on. Conversely the first step in dealing with all mind phenomena is to 'slap them up on the table' so you can get a proper look at them. My only caution would be to acknowledge the thought/feeling, but to try to stay as light as you can on it.

It perhaps would help to think of counter arguments to the points that bother you. I don't know where you are exactly but reading books by good teachers is a great help to opening your eyes to differing perspectives. Buddhist teaching is good. 'A Course in Miracles' (ACIM) is perhaps the most comprehensive and uplifting I've seen, although it's rather more than an evening's read.

Drawing on for example Buddhist and TMI stuff it seems fairly clear that while our afterlife experience may initially reflect our expectation at time of death, that after a time ego becomes less dominant and we come to see the gap between what we did, and what we would have done had we lived wholly from love. (the 'winds of Karma start to blow' as the Tibetan Book of The Dead or Bardo Thodol says) The resulting pretty awful vista (presuming a life that caused a lot of harm) drives us into rebirth in circumstances that will cause us great suffering.

So it's reasonable to think that wrongdoing does have its price. Although this is not a price in the revenge or sanctions from an angry God sense, rather a decision we ourselves take to gain the experience we need to learn those lessons needed to overcome the issues that drove us to do wrong in the first place. The good news is that it's also taught that we all achieve realisation in the end.

Another way of looking at it is to see that wrongdoing of whatever sort doesn't make people happy anyway - not even in this life. There's for example many a suicidally unhappy millionaire or crime lord around - surveying a grey world perceived to be full of enemies and the like from their ivory towers, and wondering how it can be that their money and power has brought them so little happiness. People in this situation are due compassion rather than even more punishment than that their actions have already brought on them.

Meditation is one of the most powerful means of reducing intensity and creating the space and equanimity we need to see this stuff from our hearts.

Whatever experience I've had Orlando is not exactly in cosmic consciousness territory either, although it's been just enough to feel very real and help me a lot. I guess the existential angst leaves none of us entirely until the absolute becomes more real for us than this life.

It's different for everybody, but my own experience is that the first fruits of meditation so to speak are the above space and equanimity. It's not felt to be a good idea to chase experience in meditation anyway as it just becomes another form of grasping and creates the opposite effect to that intended.

What you do depends on your own judgement, we all have to find our own way. But the one thing we can't do is to stand still....

glad i'm not alone in my feelings, briggs.

well i read a couple of george anderson's books, and he mentions some suicides where the souls are in heaven like any other soul...  i've seen other cases like that as well.  i guess the afterlife works on a "like attracts like" principle, like if you have a hellish mindset (in other words you think you can do whatever the hell you want to other people), you will enter a hell-like place with like-minded people, whereas a kind person would enter a kind place with kind people.  bruce moen mentions this in one of the books - a thief who gets trapped in his version of "hell" - living with a bunch of other thiefs.  and eventually the thief realizes the error of his ways and is able to leave his hell.  

The point I was attempting to make in all that long winded stuff, is that we can find a rational explanation - whether a good one or not is still in question until I can go there and have a direct look. Further, given that there may be one or more routes between Now and Future, and that these are more or less mechanical, we might view the afterlife transition as simply a change of lifestyle. And, in addition, we can infer that the Sewer Pipe Principle applies to life: What we get out of it depends solely upon what we put into it.

Meditation can, and does, take us to a direct perception of fundamental reality. That is no proof of a future. To view reality as an option based on regression and retrieval experiences suggests that there may, unless the reports are fantasies, be a future to experience. My claim is that we can make an good argument that the reports are not fantasies.

If reports of an afterlife are not fantasies, and if we are able to figure out how it works, then we can adjust ourselves to optimize the experience. And this, obviously, is the purpose of a lot of metaphysical writings from virtually all faiths.

This can be useful. For example if Briggs were to accept that what we get in the future is no worse than what we've done in the past, and also accept that during the "getting" process, we retain our normal good nature, as well as control over the process, allowing us to get rid of bad habits before they can try to get rid of us, then it might be possible to refocus onto a universe in which it is fun to be God. Further, because we're doing all this ourselves, and none of us are murderers, there is no way that our actions could come back to haunt us destructively. At worst, we get pangs of conscience - which we do anyhow, but these are because we are essentially Good People. (Reminds me of my Mom telling me that antiseptic burns to show that it's doing a good job.)

This is far from the notion of an omnipotent and totally alien God who has no interest in us. Instead, it allows us to see ourselves as manifestations of the creative force so long as we are in this world, and as the generating activity that projects the creative force while we are in the afterlife. Then, if we want to look even farther back in causality, we find that we are part of the big "Beingness" and we're discovering life by creating it.

And (especially because it happens to be in my interest area) there are also some interesting insights that we can extract from the necessary and sufficient aspects of any such model.

As for my bad joke, Orlando, my apologies. It doesn't merit explanation.  :P No need to get banned for life!

dave

Hi dave

I agree it is interesting to look for rational explanations - see the Science of Eternity thread, and worth trying to suggest ones. I was a bit hard on Michael Roll in the thread, but I do support his general idea, of looking for explanations of things and not assuming there must be some hard and fast line between the physical world which is amenable to scienitific explanations and the spititual one which is said not to be. His theories revolve around the soul being made up of some kind of as yet unknown sub-atomic particles and he considers that the spirit world is to be found in "dark matter" and "dark energy" as far as I recall. He also thinks this is what used to be known as "ether" - an invisible substance supposed to permeate the universe until around the 1920s or so.

I think one day we will understand the workings of spiritual matters better in more scientific ways. The science of a few decades'time might incorporate all kinds of things that are not widely accepted now. Have you come across Dean Radin, for example? He is a parapsychologist who writes about how in his opinion psi phenomena have now been proven to exist scientifically, although mainstream science for the moment tends not downplay this (he bases himself on collating many reputable studies and looking at the statistical probability of their findings, which he shows quite convincingly to show strong evidence for the reality of various so-called "paranormal" phenomena -- ie things are happenning at a rate way above standard chance, even if it is hard to produce impressive phenomena on demand). At one point he said that, I think it was Sony (a big Japanese corporation, anyway) had set up a group researching psi, and they finally closed it down saying "we found out it exists, but think it will be many years before any practical application could be found").

I've not had any afterlife exploration experiences, though I find accounts of them interesting, but I do think I've had contact with discarnate entities (or at least my experiences can plausibly be assumed to due to them) and I had a quite interesting regression experience.

Hi Orlando - I totally agree with the Sony explanation - it exists, but we can't use it for anything.

I'm trying to draw together the threads of this discussion - Briggs says that life hurts, and he has a lot of followers in that opinion. Vajra points out (and I'm in his camp) that in the end, we're doing it to ourselves, so to make the pain go away, stop doing what hurts. (Sounds a bit like the 4 Noble Truths, hum?) Then we have the realists who are having a bit of a problem with the how and why, invoking anything in sight, or out of sight, as a cause. (William of Occam's Razor be darned, I guess. - There are a lot of string theorists in this corner as well.)

From my perspective as a therapist, the purpose of understanding is especially to be able to suggest ways of altering our perception so that we can get out of the self-imposed trap of believing that everything is wrong. Example: I'm terribly allergic to everything, especially house dust, to the point that it alters my endocrine function and makes me feel kinda crazy to be in a very dusty place for a long period. We just bought a house, and have moved in with about 100 cartons of belongings, all of which bring dust from the previous house, plus adding the dust from the stiffened paper used for packing. So I've been having billious spells. I know the problem, and I know one cure, which is to go outside for a few hours, and I also know that if I can retain my sense of humor, despite feeling like I have a really wretched case of frantic flu, then I can see that this whole thing is bizarre and ridiculous.

These "curative perspectives" change nothing but the manner in which I relate to my situation. New entropy for old, if you will. But they are to that degree useful.

Another example, for Alysia this time. Occasionally I get someone like me (or perhaps like you) in therapy, where the problem is attitude. My approach is to regress them, pass through recollections of one of their prior deaths, go into spirit, and then suggest that they go to a place I call the Warehouse, where all manner of wonderful things are to be found. There, I suggest that they select a better attitude, and supportive perspectives to make it work, and that they pay for it by giving the old bad attitude to the "One in Charge".  It is literally, a "department store" approach. And, after the session is nearly over, I find it useful to point out who the One in Charge must be. So, next time God asks you if this is a department store, my suggestion is to ask to go to the department store section of the Universe, and see what's on sale.

Briggs' OCD is a condition rooted in a physiological response to stressors, coupled to his inner chemistry. His case would be more difficult to work with, and certainly is not trivial. However, to the degree that he can distance himself from the specifics that bother him, by substituting better options that have either physical support through physics, or psychic support through experience, he can improve his situation. It's not a "cure", but it's a step toward betterment. And, were he able to find a stable posture that encompassed both a grounding in physical reality that would be supportive, plus an acceptable attitude that he could retrieve when needed, so as to "reset his system" on bad days, then his situation would actually be improved.

The guys in the physics department probably have job security for life trying to figure this thing out. But that too is an advantage.

dave

I think I'm about ready to get off topic! it's been so long since I let myself ramble I'm looking for the thread police.  :-/ oh, just checked they're taking a break!

Dave, you got it slightly askew. God said I couldn't have a walk in come into my body just because I was doing such a lousy job of living a happy and fulilled life at the time, and therefore, shame on me, that I would consider this life here to be like a department store where you could just exchange your soul for another soul who would come in and clean up your own act while I watched from a cloud in nirvana.

the ultimate put down by god is to be told by him that he had given me a gift for which I was ungrateful and now I somehow had gotten the idea that life was a department store and didn't want his gift. I said oh, didn't think of it that way god, pardona moi! At the time, there was nothing on sale. it was all work and no play. :-[

actually, years later, come to find out this wasn't god at all! this was a male guide. probably my own DP. I remember feeling desperate. depressed. mid life crisis. no accomplishments. boyfriend sucked. no job. no ambition. all you youngsters out there, sometimes we call it mid life crisis, but depression can hit the best of us for spells, hang in. there is light at the end of the tunnel. I decided to experiment with getting guidance. maybe someone else can try this. it really was an important turning point for me and maybe it would work for someone in a similar spot.

1) I remembered having "god" conversations as a youngster. Decided to have another one in my 40's. couldn't hurt. I remembered the times I felt comforted after such a conversation.
2) I used to walk while doing this conversation thing. this time, since I was so bad off, I decided to bend my knees, as this would allow my ego to go away for a minute while I imagined that god was talking to me. this posture did help me remove some of the depressed thoughts I had.

3) First I spilled my guts, how I really was taking up valuable space in the world, lol, and maybe I should just go home..pretty please?  ::)
4) I imagined the presence to be about 8' away towards the wall and spoke to it though I saw nothing...after I said what all I needed to say, and offered my brilliant idea of god using my life, my body for something "he" wanted to do, which I obviously was seriously failing in doing anything useful for another human being..yada yada...
after this I was told by a presence which as I said, I could not see, but as I got quiet, I could make out male intonation, sort of telling me off, or I should say, in a kindly manner but somewhat urgent that I understand this was my life for better or worse and there was no way in hell god would send in a walk in, so there goes my fine new age idea!!! :-?
I was told to learn to appreciate myself just as I was, with all my hang ups and my nothing going on life, that I must love myself despite there didn't seem a reason to love myself. He said god loves us all just as we are. its a come as you are party and I'd received an invite.

sometimes, I admit Dave, I do shop at Walmarts and I am forgiven for this!  :)

There is no proof of anything, there is only us becoming more of us. the best way to attain a feeling like you are more than you think you are, is maybe to do a partnered exploration. expanding on that comes naturally and we may be able to do away with our cell phones someday, and that is a practical benefit I'd say.

I was sad the other day  :'( when I read in Shambhala we cannot share what it is that we are certain of, our experiences, because they belong solely to us, and it becomes our proof personal, in the heart. although we try and we try, and we should try. but we should not have expectations that we will be believed, even though we must be as authentic as we can when we tell our stories, that truthfulness will only fall on the ears of the one who is ready and has been waiting for your particular way of saying it.

well, gasp...I'm winded! love you all and have a good forever. alysia

   "discussion on the ultimate negative possibility"


 Ah Soup, Becky let on (again ::)) about being in the same room with me when i pass gas? :o

 Traitor!  >:(

:) Your post brings to mind Alysia the old saying to the effect that our life is always perfect exactly as it is. That whatever needs to happen is happening, and that if we're dissatisfied it's because we're looking at it through the wrong lens.

It's not that easy to live from this place...

Shambhala and Alysia said:

"....we cannot share what it is that we are certain of, our experiences,
because they belong solely to us, and it becomes our proof personal,
in the heart. Although we try and we try, and we should try. But we
should not have expectations that we will be believed"

Although I keep seeing the truth of this happening daily, it also makes me very sad to see it  .   :-/  :'(  :-/
But it's good to be reminded, Alysia. And one does hope that the right word at the right time will ignite the spark!  I know it has for me, thanks to those of you who have not stopped trying!!

Much gratitude!
Love, Bets

It's tough, but perhaps the reality is that we can't have absolute certainty until we pop the clogs. And even then creative mind means we'll probably be met by exactly what we expect. Not to mention that if we're disposed to doubt there's no proof can stop or overcome that, that can't be second guessed. It's maybe for this reason that all of the great teachers have restricted themselves to 'signs' rather than attempts to deliver 'proof'  by so called miracles or whatever.

So it's maybe not by accident that we have to make the first move, show the first sliver of faith or openness - point being that it's in essence an internal journey we each have to make on our own by our own means. Anything else would amount to compulsion, and Spirit doesn't do that....

But that having put a little out we get a lot more back....

reading  a book about being a warrior right now, spiritual warrior that is. it says the warrior always travels alone even when with people. that they feel both sadness and joy at the same time. Here Vajra, the act of what u r doing is what I see. you and I, and not a few of us here, are reaching out to others in communication..
there are suprises along the way when reaching out to others from the heart. it is its own reward what we do.
the highest joy for us here may be when another says thank you, I needed that.
love, alysia

:) Thank you for reaching out yourself Alysia, and the others too. For sure we all walk alone, and it's a choppy ride. But equally  if we can pull it off correctly we can help others a little too (and lots of other issues to do with the limits of language, conceptual thought and communication: not to mention writing skills) - although this is limited by the very fact of the above.

We in the end have to take responsibility for ourselves.

Sounds like that could be Chogyam Trungpa's very wonderful Shambhala: the Sacred Path of the Warrior you are reading....

Sounds like that could be Chogyam Trungpa's very wonderful Shambhala: the Sacred Path of the Warrior you are reading....

yup!

Below is some information on Chogyam Trungpa. I didn't just google this, I heard about it in different places years ago. If this is what being an enlightened master is all about, then I don't want to be one.  I know of many people who don't claim to be enlightened who live a much more balanced and loving life. I read Trungpa's cutting through spiritual materialism years ago. My memory of it isn't strong, but at the time it seemed like it was mixture of of Tibetan Buddhism and Krishnamurti. Therefore,  he could've come up with words he came up with without being a master. Many false gurus have done the same thing. Many people in all walks of life show that you don't have to be a spiritual master in order to be a good public speaker. The below is from Wikipedia.

"Controversies
There exist a number of controversies surrounding Trungpa's behavior.

He was known for his drinking of alcohol.[11] Before his coming to America, Trungpa, while under the influence, drove a sports car into a joke shop in Dumfries, Scotland. He was left partially paralyzed and often in need of assistance to walk. On some occasions he was carried off-stage for being too drunk.[12] David Chadwick recounts:[13]

"Suzuki [Roshi] asked Trungpa to give a talk to the students in the zendo the next night. Trungpa walked in tipsy and sat on the edge of the altar platform with his feet dangling. But he delivered a crystal-clear talk, which some felt had a quality - like Suzuki's talks - of not only being about the dharma but being itself the dharma."

Trungpa's choice of Westerner Ösel Tendzin as his dharma heir was controversial as Tendzin would be the first Western Tibetan Buddhist lineage holder and Vajra Regent. This was exacerbated by Tendzin's own behavior, including his homosexuality and sexual activity with students while carrying HIV.[14]

An incident that became a cause célèbre among some poets and artists was the Halloween party at the Fall, 1975, Snowmass Colorado Seminary, a 3-month period of intensive meditation and study, which the poet W. S. Merwin had asked to attend. Trungpa granted the request even though Merwin had not gone through the usual preparatory practice. At that party, after many, including Trungpa himself, had taken off their clothes, Merwin was asked to join the event, but refused. On Trungpa's orders his Vajra Guard forced entry into the poet's locked and barricaded room; brought him and his girlfriend, Dana Naone, against their will, to the party; and eventually stripped them of all their clothes, onlookers ignoring Naone's pleas for help and for someone to call the police.[15] The next day Merwin and Naone agreed to remain at the Seminary for several more weeks to hear the Vajrayana teachings, with Trungpa's promise that "there would be no more incidents," and Merwin and Naone's assertion that "it would be with no guarantees of obedience, trust, or personal devotion to him."[16] They left immediately after the last talk. In a 1977 letter to members of a Naropa class investigating the incident, Merwin concluded,

"My feelings about Trungpa have been mixed from the start. Admiration, throughout, for his remarkable gifts; and reservations, which developed into profound misgivings, concerning some of his uses of them. I imagine, at least, that I've learned some things from him (though maybe not all of them were the things I was 'supposed' to learn) and some through him, and I'm grateful to him for those. I wouldn't encourage anyone to become a student of his. I wish him well."[17]

Poet Kenneth Rexroth (in Miles, 1989) offers the observation that "Many believe Chögyam Trungpa has unquestionably done more harm to Buddhism in the United States than any man living."[18]

Rick Fields, historian of Buddhism in America,[19] writes "You caused more trouble, and did more good, than anyone I'll ever know."[20]"

Here is a lengthy article on Trungpa.

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.asp

I think in book reviews about authors, whoever they are, whatever field they might be in,  I think that the perfection of the human passing here is difficult to see because there will always be duality, meaning two sides to any argument because thats the world we live in, with both the positive and negative being continually bombarded with.

it is hard to focus on the negative if one is searching for the positive, and what you seek, the mind will find. I have chosen to be one pointed. to focus on seeing the positive, on seeing the love in others, therefore I always find it sooner or later, the love that is hidden there is in every one of us. I am glad I can see it.
love in our souls is to see mankind's basic goodness, and to to cultivate basic goodness in ourselves also, then extend this outward.
We each can be our own guru, but it's nice to see books where people are actually trying to share themselves and help others to see their basic goodness.

I made up my mind to only make a positive comment, after all, there's enough of us who will supply the negative comment, I don't need to contribute to that.

where is your focus going to be? and is your intention to produce brotherhood among all people? It's all up to us. love, alysia

a secret. (good flick btw) the title of this thread is "the ultimate negative possibility" the ultimate negative possibility I think would be death. However, undertaking a study of what death is, it is no longer a negative! therefore we can be glad we continue, for surely, the next time around if we're blessed to receive another life time, we can do away with our false savior complex, should we be having one of those, and just accept that other people have enough intelligence to pick and choose their own reading material what is best for them and what is resonating for them through their own internal guidance, their higher selves.
Being positive oriented there is so much beauty in the world to focus in on, I haven't time to be doubting my fellow man(or woman) can make it home with me.
I expect to see you all when I get home, otherwise I will look for you.  :)

Alysia:

Well, it sure seems like you have no problem doubting me. What I share about false gurus is based upon years of learning about what goes on.  I've found that I don't have to allow others to take advantage of my trusting nature in order to be a loving person. Even if you consider things from the perspective of a false guru, it is quite loving that I point out their shortcomings. I know that if I lived my life as a false guru and misled many, that once I fessed up to what I did, I would hope that people who knew better would direct unsuspecting people away from the false teachings I left behind.

Being a loving and positive person doesn't mean you don't have the right to use your discrimination. With the World we live in, we have no choice but to use our discrimination. It is because people aren't willing to question, they end up following people like Adoph Hitler.  If you think this a poor analogy, you don't realize how negative many gurus have been.

Is it actually loving and positive to add credibility to false sources of information that mislead others, without really knowing what those sources of information are all about?  I believe it is irresponsible.



LaffingRain wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2007 at 4:28pm:

I think in book reviews about authors, whoever they are, whatever field they might be in,  I think that the perfection of the human passing here is difficult to see because there will always be duality, meaning two sides to any argument because thats the world we live in, with both the positive and negative being continually bombarded with. it is hard to focus on the negative if one is searching for the positive, and what you seek, the mind will find. I have chosen to be one pointed. to focus on seeing the positive, on seeing the love in others, therefore I always find it sooner or later, the love that is hidden there is in every one of us. I am glad I can see it. love in our souls is to see mankind's basic goodness, and to to cultivate basic goodness in ourselves also, then extend this outward. We each can be our own guru, but it's nice to see books where people are actually trying to share themselves and help others to see their basic goodness. I made up my mind to only make a positive comment, after all, there's enough of us who will supply the negative comment, I don't need to contribute to that. where is your focus going to be? and is your intention to produce brotherhood among all people? It's all up to us. love, alysia a secret. (good flick btw) the title of this thread is "the ultimate negative possibility" the ultimate negative possibility I think would be death. However, undertaking a study of what death is, it is no longer a negative! therefore we can be glad we continue, for surely, the next time around if we're blessed to receive another life time, we can do away with our false savior complex, should we be having one of those, and just accept that other people have enough intelligence to pick and choose their own reading material what is best for them and what is resonating for them through their own internal guidance, their higher selves. Being positive oriented there is so much beauty in the world to focus in on, I haven't time to be doubting my fellow man(or woman) can make it home with me. I expect to see you all when I get home, otherwise I will look for you.  :)

my point was that there are many among us who have been labled as a guru and are therefore prone to gossip and such opinions that are quite false, shortsighted and shows only their lack of understanding within themselves to say anything at all against anyone at all, it is simply gossip. u, I would assume be above gossiping.

I disagree with your internet findings discrediting anyone or any reading material and I disagree with you about this latest author. I find him quite enlightened and having the most profound synchronicity with him, as I do with anything I pick up these days.

why don't you do a retrieval or offer us an experience that you have had personally, that we can enjoy reading Albert? I have been waiting for you to tell us what you have experienced personally which is far beyond mere opinionizing.

once u told me why you picked the name Recoverer. I thought you were recovering from something. U are recovering from something! having been in a cult is what you are recovering from, and now everywhere you look you doubt that you will find the truth anywhere out there. you are still hurting and won't admit it.

some day, you will have to release that hurt you feel and forgive these others for misleading you, and yourself for being sucked into it, and for believing in them, and they let you down. I know it's hard, but you have to free yourself, nobody will free you but yourself.
you told me then that recoverer is another name for retriever. so I assumed you did retrievals and that you would tell us about one or two. now I think you've never done a retrieval but you should try. you should ask your guides to help you help someone else. forgiveness leads to PUL. when u retrieve some being you are forgiving them and that gets them unstuck.

lets all get unstuck from having to feel good about ourselves by bringing somebody else down.
whats the point?

just do it Albert. just forgive.

I admit I haven't read all of the responses at this point but thought the original post was a good one that I wanted to respond to.  I haven't been on much lately, since what's his name (Harvard pastor guy) left.


the_seeker wrote on Sep 29^th, 2007 at 2:45am:

i used to think the ultimate negative possibility out of this thing called "life" is that it ceases upon breath.  i have since been trumped.  the ultimate negative possibility is actually that God not only exists, but is an evil taskmasker denying his creations free will and happiness on their own terms.

You do have the option of free will on your own terms.  Its just that there are repercussions for actions.  Why shouldn't a RAPIST have consequences for his actions in the afterlife?  What it seems like you are asking for, is to be the God of your own experience, which in a sense is allowed but is not fun.  Free will on one's own terms is ultimately a hellish experience, where you are surrounded by like minded spirits who want to exercise their free will on you in selfish ways as well.  The heavenly option requires we do the will of God, which involves loving other people and ourselves.  Yes that involves a choice where your freedom to say, rape others, has been limited.


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i was reading about the consequences of suicide on various sites like http://www.near-death.com/suicide.html and over and over i read "suicide solves nothing - the soul must reincarnate and deal with the same problems."  if so, that's really messed up.  why would God create souls/humans only to make them suffer if they don't want to suffer anymore?  these accounts explain that when a person commits suicide, it creates negative karma by making their family suffer and feel guilty.  umm.....  but God doesn't have to suffer or feel guilty for all the terrible circumstances humans endure???  it seems God doesn't have to live by his own law!

God does suffer with victims, and people who feel suicidal because of circumstances or genetics.  In effect, God did become one of us to suffer some of the worst evil that humanity would throw at him at that time (crucifixion and death through torture, rejection, etc.).  Reincarnation in these cases would be another chance to live through difficult problems.  God doesn't expect the same from everyone - 'to those who have been given more, more will be expected - those who have been given less, less will be expected.  By the way, God doesn't expect people to be happy necessarily, and God's ultimate purpose isn't our temporary pleasure or pain (although he is concerned with this, its just virtue/character issues are more important).

Secondly there are passages in the bible that have to do with the afterlife as a type of rest for people who have worked hard on themselves to deal with issues of life.  People who have committed suicide or tempted to would need a much more peaceful sort of heavenly experience then others.  Jesus went on to promise that he was preparing a place just for us individually - meaning we will have a tailor made existence.  Someone who is troubled by depression and needs more peace will have it.


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on that site, Angie Fenmore's in particular is a very very Christian-oriented NDE.  at the end, God even shows her that the time of the Second Coming of Jesus is near!!!!  i refuse to believe that.  she describes God's voice "encompassed such ferocious anger that with one word it could destroy the universe."  umm, why would God be mad at the very thing he created?   it makes me wonder how much of the NDE experience is kind of "made up" to fit the beliefs of the experiencer.  i would think it was all created in the brain if i didn't know better from people's experiences with ghosts (spirits).

God cares passionately about people, and loves them very much.  Its because of this love that he can be so angry at destructive and hurtful decisions that people make.  We do few actions  (or say few words) that are isolated and independent  - pretty much everything we do or say affects others for good or for bad.  This has ripple effects on others as well.  


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i thought God was supposed to give us free will, yet one person who committed suicide was told "you have to either live out the rest of your life or reincarnate and go through the same problems."  that's free will????????   doesn't sound like free will to me.  free will would be the soul being allowed to stay in heaven with everyone else if they wanted to.  some suicide NDEr's have even experienced "hell" - demons in the hospital room.  i'm starting to wonder if God is actually evil and we are just stuck in his sick twisted game.  it kind of makes sense in a way - i mean if God was pure goodness, why would he even allow evil/terrible things to exist in the first place?  in fact, why bother with humans in the first place, because they're so incredibly imperfect and have a great capacity for evil?  i'm so confused.

Again, you have free will - in fact you can be terribly evil in your interactions or terribly loving.  It doesn't mean there aren't consequences, however.  One cannot be a rapist and be "allowed to stay in heaven with everyone else if they wanted to" without going through a whole lot of repentance / experiencing of what the victim went through.


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also, what about all the MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people who commit "slow suicide" by drinking, not exercising or eating junk food?  why the hell do they not get treated like s*it upon death?   hell, it seems to me they're saying suiciders get treated worse than RAPISTS AND MURDERERS.

It is possible that God will call people into account for being destructive to their own bodies over a long period of time.

People who commit suicide are throwing away an outrageous opportunity to do good and evil in this life, even if they don't realize it at the time.  Once that is thrown away, they have lost some of that freedom through choices they have made.  No doubt each experience of suicide is treated differently, and its my personal belief that some people who commit suicide end up in heaven.


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oh yeah, and at the same time these experiences say "suicide solves nothing" etc. they say "suicides are not judged by God - they judge themselves."  huh?????  why would a soul make themselves suffer more, when they just proved they can't/don't want to handle suffering???  makes no sense.

Again, people have free will, but not freedom from consequences of their actions.

Would the world be better if rapists and torturers were simply dead when they died and didn't know what harm they had done to their victims and the domino effect the evil had on other people?  Do we want to live in a universe where Hitler can live life fully and happily until his physical death and have no repercussions for the millions of his victims?  Thats absurd in the existentialist sense of things, and makes a mockery of the suffering of people.  God actually places a huge value on the suffering of people, and takes it far more seriously than your worldview does.


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ALSO i thought God was supposed to not generate fear, and supposedly fear is the most dangerous thing on earth and all bad blah blah blah, yet what does these experiences teach in spades?  fear fear fear fear fear.

Think of a child who gets caught eating cookies.   You are thinking of God in the sense of a mother who whacks the kid's hand afterwards.  God is really more like a mother who warns the kid they will spoil their appetite for dinner, which is what happens to the kid.  These are natural consequences of evil actions with the free will that God has given us.  Would God be loving if he didn't warn us of terrible experiences that are possible in the afterlife?


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ALSO what about all those souls they talk about that never even come to Earth in the first place???  obviously THEY don't have to reincarnate and grow past what drove them to suicide because they never had to deal with anything negative in the first place, but us eternally damned humans do??  are we condemned or something?  i thought a  person could choose not to reincarnate, but that's not what these people heard in their NDE's.

I have no idea what happens to souls that don't incarnate on Earth.  However, along with free will comes good and evil.  We can be forgiven of our evil, but we need to be loving and forgiving towards the evil that others do toward us (assuming they ask for forgiveness), and we need to ask for forgiveness for ourselves.  So there is a mechanism to deal with the evil that we create during our lifetimes.  What you don't get, is life on your own terms.  Thank God for that - the people you have hurt in your lifetime would be living in a unjust paradigm where you would be able to exalt in pleasure at their pain.  There is justice in the universe; justice, and love.

Alysia:

If you aren't interested in what the hard found lessons of others have to say that is your choice. If you want to turn others onto false sources of information, that is also your choice.

If one person benefits from my extensive experience in these matters, then the time I've spent posting is well worth while.  Even if nobody cares for what I have to say, at least ways I was responsible and caring enough to do so.  One thing is certain: those who are misled and have read this thread, won't be able to say that nobody tried to warn them.

Regarding the other things you wrote; retrievels, the reason for "Recoverer,"  my supposed hurt, my experiences, I won't bother. This isn't about me. It's about not letting the numerous false gurus that exist get away with their nonsense.





LaffingRain wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2007 at 6:36pm:

my point was that there are many among us who have been labled as a guru and are therefore prone to gossip and such opinions that are quite false, shortsighted and shows only their lack of understanding within themselves to say anything at all against anyone at all, it is simply gossip. u, I would assume be above gossiping. I disagree with your internet findings discrediting anyone or any reading material and I disagree with you about this latest author. I find him quite enlightened and having the most profound synchronicity with him, as I do with anything I pick up these days. why don't you do a retrieval or offer us an experience that you have had personally, that we can enjoy reading Albert? I have been waiting for you to tell us what you have experienced personally which is far beyond mere opinionizing. once u told me why you picked the name Recoverer. I thought you were recovering from something. U are recovering from something! having been in a cult is what you are recovering from, and now everywhere you look you doubt that you will find the truth anywhere out there. you are still hurting and won't admit it. some day, you will have to release that hurt you feel and forgive these others for misleading you, and yourself for being sucked into it, and for believing in them, and they let you down. I know it's hard, but you have to free yourself, nobody will free you but yourself. you told me then that recoverer is another name for retriever. so I assumed you did retrievals and that you would tell us about one or two. now I think you've never done a retrieval but you should try. you should ask your guides to help you help someone else. forgiveness leads to PUL. when u retrieve some being you are forgiving them and that gets them unstuck. lets all get unstuck from having to feel good about ourselves by bringing somebody else down. whats the point? just do it Albert. just forgive.

U said: Regarding the other things you wrote; retrievels, the reason for "Recoverer,"  my supposed hurt, my experiences, I won't bother. This isn't about me. It's about not letting the numerous false gurus that exist get away with their nonsense.
___

u also said this isn't about you. this forum is about you. and me, and all of us and our beliefs, our agendas, our intentions. I would ask you what you think of Bruce's books then. I have seen you have read Monroe and I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention "extensive experience." I suppose you might have been a guru follower. I have never been that so I don't understand.

In all these years of knowing you, I simply would like to see if you got anything out of Bruce's material or not. And if you did, then you know this place is about sharing our experiences, from the heart, without reprisal from negative inferences that in your opinion I, or another, are reading the wrong material.

So, my solution is to discuss subject matters which this board was founded upon whenever possible, as we do get off topic, which is human nature.

you have continually poo pood on various material mentioned here, effectively shutting down further open minded discussion on those topics, even a friend of mine will not come here anymore because of your rant.
I cannot read you anymore myself because of your judgment and attacks, although I am sure your anger, is not because of anything I said, or what I read. your anger is because you think you are not being respected.
the time I am taking to respond to you, knowing it will do no good, for you or me or anybody to waste my breath, you must know I am trying to get through to you this one last time. I am accepting it is out of my hands and will pray and meditate that you will release your deep hurt from what happened to you, and accept it was something your higher self chose to put you through, for whatever purpose you will find out someday.

it is wrong to expect this forum to be able to heal you as we are so far, just a discussion group and exploring our beliefs, hopefully without such censor from yourself, that we can speak freely, and without anger or expectations to get anything out of this board. its rather what you put into this board, is what you will extract, put anger into it, thats what comes back to you, put genuine love in it, you will get love back. nonetheless, you will be healed of your pain someday. as will we all.

and do try to cultivate a sense of humor, you are one serious guy.

life is too short to get all uptight Albert. stop and smell the flowers.
don't bother answering me dearlight, you have worn me out for the time being.

Alysia:

If you don't want to read this post, it is up to you.

Imagine a foreign country. A man speaks to young ladies and tells them he can help them find legitimate work in other parts of the World. Because of their excitement, they don't question this man and do what he tells them to do. They arrive at the other country and are forced into prostitution (This happens alot, the sort of World we live in). Would it be wrong for a person to try to warn such a lady about this man, for fear of being negative and unloving?

I know the false guru issue isn't the exact same thing, but if you read my previous posts and considered what I had to say, you would see there are very good reasons for doing what I do. As a public forum, you shouldn't make the mistake of believing that everybody has to conform to your idea of what loving behavior is.

I do what I do out of love, not out of anger.  I'm not holding onto past hurt. There are many times I bite my tongue when people bring up the names of false gurus, but sometimes I feel like I have to do what I consider to be loving.

Regarding Bruce Moen, I'm a fan. If you've read my posts on other threads you'd see that I sometimes refer to what he has to say. His book "Voyage to Curiosity's Father" is one of my favorites.

Hey there,

so what's the deal?
If one abuses his position in order to oppress, abuse and misuse the ones who cling on his/her teachings, I guess this one has not realized what being a teacher is all about.
Everyone has a responsibility towards others, and this is shown through behaviour, that fits moral, ethical, and humane rules, made up as an agreement between humanbeings.
A teacher should be sort of a role model, in gaining knowledge, and behaviour.
Wisdom and gained knowledge are not there to indoctrinate, but both are there to share, to evaluate, and to widen them.

The teacher can be the wisest whatsoever, if using wisdom to justify forcing one ones will on others (meant in EVERY sense forcing is used, over-dogmatic rules, when going against them, then being punished hard,
bringing people into a state of being emotionally addicted to this "teacher", sexual, etc), it is just a crooked act of selfish behaviour, nothing adorable. The worst case of (cultic?!) brain washing.
These ones are not people to follow.

The way to prevent oneself from falsehood and misleading is balancing between what both of you said, being open minded, AND being careful in whom one can trust. This is easy said, but not easy done, I know.

Alysia, for the first time I do not quite get the point of your posts. We wrote so much pm's that figured out, how to prevent oneself from being cut off from the truth, prevent oneself from following anything blindfolded. If someone, even if his set of ideas shows effort in thinking, but on the other hand behaving against human values (the drinking thing is something I do not point out, that is a personal problem, that must not be the ingnition for inhumane behaviour), isn't it better to leave this someone behind? Even if he supports ones ideas (or the other way around), in order to step back to truth, letting this belief system crash? Bruce talks about crashing belief systems, sounds like the phoenix rising from the ashes, to leave behind mind traps (belief traps), letting them crash, in order to come back again with a new view on the world?
Being positive is a valuable thing, negativity something to overcome. But positivity and open mindness do not mean only to cling on them. May I use an example (you have one, at least stored in you pm box :) ), we may take a humanbeing that comes across only with negativity, does this actually mean, in order not to endanger ones positive world view, to ignore this person? I guess not (something we have also discussed, I never read, that it is up your alley to do so, don't take this as an insinuation). Sometimes such a person can be just blocked by negative hurdles, that can be crashed in.
But the other way around, when a person uses the mask of being a good teacher, teaching truth and positivity, but when looking in the mirror, seing that there is only a person that misuses this as a stalking horse for supporting cranky phantasies (and living them out by forcing them on others), it is apparently not the right situation for using open mindness, in order to defend a set of ideas. Ideas are good, but good behaviour should also be involved.
Forgive me for saying this, but I was shocked.

All written In My Humble Opinion.

regards,

pulsar

Obviously I agree Pulsar. Not even if they are really good at coming up with all kinds of clever words.


pulsar wrote on Oct 24^th, 2007 at 1:14pm:

Hey there, so what's the deal? If one abuses his position in order to oppress, abuse and misuse the ones who cling on his/her teachings, I guess this one has not realized what being a teacher is all about. Everyone has a responsibility towards others, and this is shown through behaviour, that fits moral, ethical, and humane rules, made up as an agreement between humanbeings. A teacher should be sort of a role model, in gaining knowledge, and behaviour. Wisdom and gained knowledge are not there to indoctrinate, but both are there to share, to evaluate, and to widen them. The teacher can be the wisest whatsoever, if using wisdom to justify forcing one ones will on others (meant in EVERY sense forcing is used, over-dogmatic rules, when going against them, then being punished hard, bringing people into a state of being emotionally addicted to this "teacher", sexual, etc), it is just a crooked act of selfish behaviour, nothing adorable. The worst case of (cultic?!) brain washing. These ones are not people to follow. regards, pulsar

Has anyone heard of this phrase: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.....

I, personally, do not believe that a person must be forever judged and dragged through the mud because of previous errors. I, personally, do not believe that what a person has done "right" should be ignored because of previous errors.

I believe that is one of the basic premises of this site. That we are not to judge. Do we judge those we retrieve? No, we do not. We are guided, whether by identifiable guides, or by Spirit (as some like to call that which cannot be named).

We are guided.

It is important to trust in this guidance, our guidance from Spirit.

I think that is all that you are really trying to say, Recoverer.

Is it necessary to be responsible when assisting others? Of course.

But beauty will always be in the eye of the Beholder.

love, blink :)

Hey there,

@ blink

I have to agree on the point made by you, that a person should not be judged forever by his/her wrongdoings. BUT (there is a rub in it), what do you consider as wrongdoings, if they mean minor harm, it is something that can be forgiven. There should be a second chance. It is hard to forgive, if this behaviour totally ruined other persons, since it was against what humanity stands for.
Some things are avoidable (to pick up the bad news about the guru), and they are not in to see in the eye of the beholder, but as a whole. And this begins directly there, when the safety margin is overstepped (there is a voice inside everyones head that tells us  "up to there, and not further").

Noone is free of judgement, it is a human feature, without judgement, we could not decide wether something was wrong or not.

No spiritual guidance would ever allow to hurt someone in a way, that turns him/her totally around.

Sometimes there are "snap" decisions, this is the "hot spot" where wrongdoing and the voice inside the head are screaming out loud. So there is a way to decide wether to do something or not.

There has to be a consequence for wrongdoings, only giving a second chance immediately lies not within our possiblities.

regards,

pulsar

Blink:

I do not write the things I write about false gurus because I want to judge them. I wish them the best and believe a day will come where we will share the same light and love with each other for all of eternity.

Regarding the bath water, I believe that such gurus do have some good things to say.  It is everything that takes place beyond the good things they have to say that concern me.  I don't believe it is necessary for me to restate what these things are.

I will however, add something.  Many of the members of the group I was involved with were wonderful people.  They are people who could've made a difference in the World. Instead, everything they had to give, was given to the group. Partly because as far as the group's guru was concerned, the World is nothing but an illusion and one doesn't need to concern one's self about it.

When some of the elderly people left this group they didn't have any savings to live on. While with the group they figured they wouldn't have to worry about this, because either they'd become enlightened and it wouldn't matter, or the group would take care of them. Things didn't work out this way. When it came to the large amount of money the group collected, only the guru and a couple of people who were in cahoots with him, collected it.  Unfortunately my group isn't a rare exception. There are many to varying degrees. Some are even much worse. :(




wrote on Oct 24^th, 2007 at 1:53pm:

Has anyone heard of this phrase: Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..... I, personally, do not believe that a person must be forever judged and dragged through the mud because of previous errors. I, personally, do not believe that what a person has done "right" should be ignored because of previous errors. I believe that is one of the basic premises of this site. That we are not to judge. Do we judge those we retrieve? No, we do not. We are guided, whether by identifiable guides, or by Spirit (as some like to call that which cannot be named). We are guided. It is important to trust in this guidance, our guidance from Spirit. I think that is all that you are really trying to say, Recoverer. Is it necessary to be responsible when assisting others? Of course. But beauty will always be in the eye of the Beholder. love, blink :)

It is not really important, Pulsar, what I, personally, might consider "wrong-doing" in another. Ultimately, I don't think it is important.

Self-expression, for each of us, involves risk.

There are many risks to self-expression, and many scenarios possible in any given situation. What tips the scale in one direction or another? Are there only two directions in which to move?
Obviously not.

What hurts us also helps us at times, and we don't really know how everything truly works in our lives until we reach the end.

I have to say, yes, look at the results. But what will you actually see? Will you see the whole story, or only part of it?

We, as humans, from our individual perspectives, are not completely capable of seeing the whole story, in my opinion.

But we get glimpses, and we work from there, where we are.

love, blink :)

Hey there,

@ blink

We are not all knowing, that is for sure. But there is a measurement, that counts for us all, called human rights, call me conservative, but I do believe that they have to be followed, I see them as kind of an agreement we are bound to, respect, acceptance, for me these two are even on a higher position than love (to explain it shorlty, respect and acceptance are things you can offer to everyone, love has limits (I do not know how you view this, are respect and acceptance included in akc's idea of love, then using the word love would make sense, but again, only imho.)
Noone is flawless, but when chosing to live according to this "set of rules", the "big" mistakes can be avoided.

I do not want to start a fight here on what is more valuable, but I do believe in the things, that are motivated and presented through reason, that is my belief system.

regards,

pulsar

I completely respect your point of view, Pulsar. Thank you for bringing the phrase "human rights" to my attention, because I do also agree that we live on the earth, with other human beings, and every human being has the right to certain basic dignities.

But life is not fair. Is it?  Do we know why? Many times it is because of our assumptions, which, when acted upon, are not in anyone's best interest....that we can see or understand.

But there are hidden gains.

I think it is a question of faith. How do we trust anyone in a world which seems unfair, and in which we can be "hurt" at any time?

We simply do it....we trust because we are human, and any other way of living is dry and barren, a wasteland, cold and uninviting.

And we know that warmth is in our nature, and our warmth is what gives us life.

love, blink :)

;)  :) Bloody hell, it's got lively here while I was away. I can see where you are coming from R and appreciate your concern, but I too think you're trying to force fit an idealised conceptual view of what should be on to a reality that's doesn't work that way.

I've already posted at length on the probably highly variable nature of enlightenment. It's got to be that way from this viewpoint - I can't think of even one teacher that's ever been universally acknowledged as such. (not even Jesus or the Buddha) Given that how are we ever going to learn anything from teachers if we're intent on refusing to engage until a perfect being comes into our life? Dumping them the moment they don't live up to our highly personalised take on what they should be amounts to much the same.

We're dealing with absolute wisdom and love trying to express through the medium of a human body and mind in this dualistic reality and multiplicity of cultures. There seem to have been a few known (like Jesus and the Buddha) who as a result of many enlightened lifetimes had got this down to a fine art, but that's about it. Lay on top of that our partial and relativistic perception (seeing one side of any situation as Alysia says) and it gets very mixed up indeed.

I don't for a moment condone knowingly misleading people, but the above means that by definition teachers are going to be perceived from differing perspectives.

Actions that appear questionable may not be, and vice versa. But one thing is clear. We have to take responsibility for ourselves and our path. We'll given our limited capability for sure make mistakes along the way, but surely learning is the point? It wouldn't do a great deal of good if it was only about wandering around in starry eyed adoration of always perfect teachers.

In the end it comes down to trust. We have to put our best foot forward and that involves not  wholesale acceptance of what any teacher says or does, but equally as above not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We cannot dispense with discretion, but equally we have to be prepared to lighten up and allow considerable space. And always look for the good, because what's positive is as Alysia says often negative through another narrow lens.

This is the human journey. There's plenty that happened in the 60s that was denounced from the pulpit and by the moral majority, but in retrospect much of it (and I'm thinking about sexual morality and human relationships here) while of itself having overshot and/or not been very realistic as a sustainable way of living did a very great good by grounding the consciousness that's badly needed (love for your fellow man, practical realisation of the horrors of war, care for the environment and the like) if humanity is to have any hope of survival. Ditto for the eastern traditions which in years gone by were often denounced as heathen immorality.

I'm left having to believe that it's the way it it is because that's the way it's meant to be. That it's perfection as it is if we can see it correctly. We have to trust in this. In fact are required to trust in this...

Hey there,

@ blink

Fairness and life sometimes do not go hand in hand. Life is our task, so fairness is not something we should take for granted, it is something we have to gain and fight for.
There are certain points in life when it comes to the question, if life is treating one with fairness, and easily we look at others and think "darn, why can't it turn out for me like for him/her?".
What to do about it? The only way is to go for what decision seems reasonable (not jumping on the next train to come, but taking a while to reflect) to get to the next level.
It probably takes some time, but everything you do to improve will be rewarded, not like the big deal coming around within the next seconds, did you have situations where you thought "I never guessed this or that would help me?".

Trust is a chapter for itself, I for myself am not trusting to easily in things, sometimes in an overdone way.
But on the other hand, we need something to trust in, even when life is a wasteland and cold, it cries for the ones who plant trees.
The biggest hurdle is to trust oneself. If this opportunity is not given, trusting in anything else would be a ride on razors edge.
What is missing these days somehow is honesty, so it is sometimes hard to divide the shallow from the trustworthy.

regards,

pulsar

Yes, everything we do to improve is rewarded, Pulsar. I believe that.

Regarding, honesty...is honesty living according to what a person "perceives" as truth? Or is it something else?

Is honesty living without hypocrisy? Can it be done?

I think it can be done, but only when we slow down. So we can see our own motivations.

Can we do it alone? Sometimes, but not always. Besides, we are never alone.

I know you may find some of my statements contradictory. And that's alright.

love, blink :)






pulsar wrote on Oct 24^th, 2007 at 4:24pm:

Hey there, @ blink ...It probably takes some time, but everything you do to improve will be rewarded, not like the big deal coming around within the next seconds, did you have situations where you thought "I never guessed this or that would help me?". ...What is missing these days somehow is honesty, so it is sometimes hard to divide the shallow from the trustworthy. regards, pulsar

well hmm. life is too short and sweet to argue who's telling the truth and who's out to con you. discernment is easy when u just stop worrying about it, spirit speaks to you from within.

here u go, and thanks Vajra for your post, its a good post, not necessarily because you mentioned my name  8-) but because you are well written.

here u go   "we teach what we need to learn." (I found this to be true.)

we are all teachers.
we are all students.

we teach others who we are.
they teach us who they are.

we learn from each other as well, but only if the other person is not coming off as if they are superior.
then we want to punch them.

best not to punch though. only with feather!  :)

go forth in life with a gentle and open heart, for this is the way of the warrior.

we become all knowing when we don't give a hoot anymore about knowing anything about anything because the wonder of another sunrise consumes the senses and love is everywhere you didn't find it before.

love is all we need. love is god.

The Roman Catholic Church and Chrisitanity, has been lying to us for thousands of years.. So, is that to say people should give up Christianity??? I say yes/no... Because Christianity has it's good intentions and it's bad intentions.. The good it talks about love of the neighbor and to be a good samaritan.. The bad it talks about is that there is a fiery hell and people should live in fear of committing sins...  I could list more good and more bad about Christianity, but that's beside the point..

Blink, is right about "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.." That is what I am trying to point out as well.. I say don't give up religion fully.. Just throw out the bad that doesn't reside well with you.. That is why I stay with Christianity... Though my Christianity is Christian  Universalism... I throw out the bad part of fundimental Christianity! Not the whole thing obviously.. Christianity and Universalism are basically the same.. They only differ in the belief of that there is no hell and that God is not a person.. Obviously, Universalism is the one that believes in that there is no hell and what not..

So, really no one is really right or wrong in this discussion.. I believe more in moral relativism.. But that's a whole different ball game FOLKS!! :)

peace and love

I'm very much in the relative space on right and wrong too Briggsy - there's probably hardly an act that of itself cannot be either good or bad depending on circumstance. Life always requires us to apply wisdom and compassion in all our actions - we're never ever premitted to run on auto pilot or to blindly follow some rule or other.

Must say I don't have a lot of time for 'Christianity' in it's rule based hierarchical and institutional form which epitomises and teaches the opposite of the above. Which often fulminates against 'relativism'.

That said it's a sort of catch 22 problem. Access to teaching and mutual support are such important elements of all our paths - even those of us that plough what is a relatively solitary furrow actually depend heavily on access to all of these. Albeit often in unusual forms like this site, or the local bookshop, or your local Dharma group or whatever. The three jewels as Buddhism has it - the Buddha, the Dharma (the body of teaching) and the Sangha. (the body of practitioners)

It's just that given how egotistical and imbued with the authoritarian mindset that pervades our society  most people are it seems like no sooner do you have a religious grouping than you usually have individuals who set out to force their views on what it should teach and how it should run on others, and others who no matter what is proposed will not play their parts - all for reasons  which when closely looked at are inevitably driven by the (sometimes very subtle) motives that flow from ego and self interest.

It's such a subtle balance to achieve...