It is Yom Kippur for Jewish people; a day of strict fasting, and prayers for forgiveness of one's sins against God and one's fellow man.  It is thought of as wiping the slate clean; starting anew, and is felt by many to be the most sacred holy day.

The question comes up then as to the role of atonement in our current life and the afterlife.  It is assumed by many religions that we all have something to ask forgiveness for; flaws and faults are seen as the nature of our humanity.  But is this thinking correct?

I believe that the idea of sin and the need for atonement come from the separation of ourselves from God, not from an inherently flawed nature.  The closer we get to God, to "Source" as some like to call it, the more we act in accordance to our true nature.  The further we distance ourselves from God, the more tragedies and strife we find; hence the violent chaotic world, and the need for atonement and forgiveness.

A true understanding of the self imposed seperation from the divine changes the notions of atonement and forgiveness while we are alive, and perhaps in the afterlife.  To simply ask for forgiveness, admit our shortcomings as human beings, does not necessarily change one whit, the mindset that led us to those failings in the first place.  Thus, the Jewish day of atonement or the Catholic confession are recurring necessities.  The real "sin," is in our separation from the divine, not in our natures.  Until we can recognize and believe this, we are separate individuals, on the planet, playing out the laws of cause and effect (karma).

With the breaking down of the wall that separates us from God, comes the path to heaven.  We do not hurt others for it becomes against our path and nature.  There is likely less of a need for atonement as we tread this path, for we are already heading toward God.

In the afterlife, it is said that with a life review, many feel a tremendous need to atone, knowing the reality of God and heaven, and the harm they may have caused others.  Hence the mind created purgatories and hells that people willingly drift into.  But here again, there is a false separation of the individual from God.  They believe that they deserve punishment for the harm they have caused another, because they cut themselves off willingly from God and heaven.  What the hellbound don't realize is that even in their punishment, they are seeing God as something distant, something separated from themselves.  Thus they create, unknowingly the barriers and gates of hell.

My message this Yom Kippur is one of hope.  It is the idea that for people in general, atonement and forgiveness have a place in healing our spirit.  However, strife, discord, war and suffering appear to stem from this unusual deliberate separation of man by his own will from God and heaven.  With the lifting of this wall or separation, we all have a way to go forward and "sin no more."


Matthew

Nicely put Doc. My inclination too is to feel that any question of punishment is likely to arise out of our own remorse having suddenly seen the implications of what we have done to others. That a loving God does not impose punishment.

I may not be quite exactly where I think you are on forgiveness. For sure lots of us admit to having done wrong, and then go out and do the same again. Or worse still for many 'confession' is purely participation in a ritual without any taking on board of its implications. (the 'horse to water' problem again)

My sense however is that if we truly see what we have done wrong and release it we are  simultaneously changed and forgiven. Changed because the ability to truly connect with what we did implies an inability to do it again. (with 100% identification with/the realisation that we are actually not separated from the wronged party it harms us as much as the other)  Except perhaps in the case of a perverse wilfulness that drives us to continue doing wrong despite truly knowing that we should not - this is actually one definition of evil. And forgiven, because there's no more that's in our power to do, and in the end it doesn't matter.

The karmic load we incur from a given act of wrongdoing is perhaps a reflection of the gap between the reality of our response and full seeing of our error. And this karma as you say presumably kicks in in the afterlife or whenever we next achieve full seeing.

It's effects are potentially more serious in the afterlife because whatever we imagine we can very quickly bring into existence, and heavy remorse may drive us into an unwise rebirth or other means of harming ourselves.....

"I believe that the idea of sin and the need for atonement come from the separation of ourselves from God, not from an inherently flawed nature."

This is exactly what is taught in the Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches (Greek, Russian, et al.).
They also teach that sin is "missing the mark." It's the Western Churches, both Latin Catholic and Protestant, that lend a legalistic interpretation of sin (and redemption) that many carry too far.

Rob

I am not as far advance as most of you are on the afterlife. But your post brings me to a couple of questions.

1. If it is our own remorse that places us far from God, why are there 10 Commandments? (15 if you have watched the Monty Python movie). LOL

2. In theory. If a man like the BTK or Zodiac killers have no remorse, do they enjoy the same afterlife as man who lives a christian life for what they had done?

3. What about today's terrorist? Are the men would slammed into the towers believing they were doing so with God's Will enjoying the heaven I seek?

I don't know the answers and I am the last to try and repute anyone here however, I know this: The closer I live my life following the Commandments, the easier my life is.

I realize that repenting one's own sins clears your heart and soul of the heavy burden of sin and with that clearing, it is easier to enjoy the afterlife because you enter without that burden.

With that said; It is very difficult for me to think that Jeffrey Dahlmer and/or terrorist that freely kill will share the same space I strive for  if they do not feel remorse. I would rather think that there is a special place set aside for people like that and in my view, that place is not pleasant.

Hmmmn, that might be a place, described more as a place for the mentally ill, if I had my "druthers" but who am I to say?

I mean, if someone has no remorse, do they fully understand? They don't understand. But I can understand also why some would prefer that there be a place for "those people" to cry the river, the ocean of tears that others cry.

But, again, most of us will suffer mental illness or know someone who is suffering at some times in our lives. It is a subject close to us, one which we live with, one which we read about, one which sometimes terrifies us and often angers us and with out a doubt confuses us.

I can become mentally ill over the idea of cutting short a fantastic date with my boyfriend because some young (is he even 18, hard to believe!) man who moved in downstairs called the police on us last night. We were listening to some music cds I had bought at a local hangout recently, and he was playing his guitar along. He had had a whisky or two. I don't drink these days. We were dancing together and singing and laughing....I had bought a huge bouquet of flowers for myself because I've recently been ill, and it cheered me up. The apartment was full of life and energy and love.

When the policeman stopped by (about 11:00) we were beginning to wrap it up, or start it up, whichever you prefer. "Is there a problem?" I asked. "I got a complaint about some noise.....I don't hear anything." He left.

Unfortunately, then my boyfriend also felt compelled to GO HOME. His place is so full of artwork and books and music there is literally room for one person to lie down. Nix the idea of me staying there, ever.

I am capable of being very cool when I'm distraught. I was distraught. I am still distraught.

Do you know how long, with illnesses, age, work, art, friends, life, tragedy, etc etc etc inserting their huge footprints into our lives, it takes to find the perfect moments with the love of your life?

We were literally dancing and he was singing in my ear. It wasn't an unpleasant cop.

But, who is to blame here, really? Who should feel sorry? There is no tragedy here, in the minds of anyone but me.

But it's enough to wish there was a hell...for little whiny college students who can't handle the sound of two middle aged lovers connecting by the grace of God. On a Saturday night for God's sake.

I could write him a letter and explain how it took me 25 years to find this man again. I could explain that I'm new to this "living alone" stuff after a 15 year marriage and divorce. I could explain that he's the only one who's ever made me happy.

But how is an 18 year old going to understand?

See what I mean about mental illness? Oh, well, that's life.

love, blink :)

Hi JKelly,

Here's my two cents:

You asked:  "1. If it is our own remorse that places us far from God, why are there 10 Commandments? (15 if you have watched the Monty Python movie). LOL "

I don't believe our remorse places us far from God.  I believe that we, as individuals in society think of God as something else, and create a separation from God and heaven.  Remorse is the natural response when we see that there is, in fact a God and heaven, and that we may have hurt others.  Yet though remorse may goad us to changing our thought/behaviour, it is not sufficient to be remorseful.  We have to walk the walk.


You asked: " 2. In theory. If a man like the BTK or Zodiac killers have no remorse, do they enjoy the same afterlife as man who lives a christian life for what they had done? "

The answer, as I see it, is "no", but not because of any externally imposed judgement or system of justice.  If a killer has no remorse, no regret, he/she will live in a post-mortem afterlife that is appropriate for his/her thought (we take our thoughts with us when we die).  He can't go to heaven simply because those in heaven are of a different kind of thought.  When one's thought is oriented to love of people and love of God, one could not at the same time harbour thoughts of killing and maiming.  So a killer, after passing on without remorse passes on to a like plane of existence.  A Hell, where others who believe and think as he/she does act out there thoughts.  A kill or be killed world.  Sometimes killer, sometimes victim.  An outsider looking at this would be appalled, and might also think it as some externally applied punishment.  In reality, it is the simple paradigm of like attracting like.  

You asked:
"3. What about today's terrorist? Are the men would slammed into the towers believing they were doing so with God's Will enjoying the heaven I seek? "

The answer, as I see it is again no, for the same reasons I stated above.  Terrorists may kill because they have been indoctrinated into a religious system, but they also know, in their very core/heart that this is wrong.  In a life review, if they have one, they would feel/know all the damage wrought to the people and families on those towers/planes.  They also would see how hate and harm are the path away from God and Heaven.  If they ended up on a ploane of Muslim appearing heaven, they would be subject to the same violence their minds believed in.  Certainly not a pleasant place for most of us.  

Blink,

I feel for you.  There are certain carefree moments destined to be ingrained in our spiritual memories - they  are impossible to plan for; they just happen.  Yet day to day little things may give us glimpses of this love and happiness.   A brief smile from my four year old will do it for me every time.  Turning on the car radio and hearing a favorite song.  The feelings evoked from sun and warmth after a storm.  What you and your boyfriend share is there all the time - no complaint or policeman can change that.


Matthew

Aren't you so right, Doc? Nothing Real can be threatened, as they say.....

I remember sitting on a beach about two years ago and thinking about love. I remember drawing a heart in the sand. I remember looking over to my left and seeing a police car cruising toward me. I covered up the heart with more sand, wiping it away. It felt like an omen of some kind.

But the wiping away of the sand was protective, not destructive.

And, so they say, there is a place where all of our tears will be washed away, each and every one. But, that doesn't keep us from crying those tears which fill the river of our lives, along with our laughter, our bliss. The connection, when we recognize it, is infinite.

And that, surely, is truly the beauty of it, at least for me, at this moment.

love, blink :)

I had one regression session in which the person had been one of a group who stole from the cruel lord who ruled their town, giving some of the money to townspeople to ease their suffering under his rule. They were caught, chained to a dungeon wall where they were slowly starved to death. In death they found themselves together in their own private heaven where they were able to enjoy the idea that they had been compassionate in giving to the townspeople. Then they got reborn into the karmic consequences of being thieves, which was not at all heavenly.

I suspect that this is the fate of the dedicated suicide bomber who takes out a bus load of children, or old women in the market, but does so for the "good of my country" - an excuse responsible for all manner of atrocities over history. So they get a little heaven, reflecting the good part of their attitude, and then they get the karma that acts to educate about the other half.

This is actually not much different from what the rest of us look forward to, a reward for our virtues, and education to cure our vices. My guess is that a suicide bomber would be reborn into a place where the danger of attack by suicide bombers would be quite high, and they would get the picture by experiencing it from the other side of the bomb, so to say. Ugh.

By contrast, after a normal life with a side activity of soul retrievals, or perhaps work as a therapist,  I'd expect a reward for the compassion of helping others, plus karmic effects that would act to assist us along our own spiritual path. Seems more useful to me.

dave

Quote:

Then they got reborn into the karmic consequences of being thieves, which was not at all heavenly.

i don't understand that.  stealing from a cruel greedy person to help other people seems like a far cry from suicide bombing innocent people.  especially considering that theft is just a natural outgrowth of capitalism.  every employer and business "steals" from its employees every time it lays people off to make more money...   how is that any better than actually "stealing" from a bad person?  

in fact the very idea of "theft" hinges on greed.  i don't see it as "theft" if someone, say, steals a coat because they're homeless and need to stay warm.  a true theft would be stealing out of greed or envy.  a homeless person not stealing food isn't noble - they're stupid.

i guess this would depend on the mindset of the "thief."  after all, even killing has different meanings depending on how it's done - killing in a war or having an abortion isn't seen as "murder" even if they have the same end result.  

My understanding S is that many of the forms of theft and killing permitted by society are in fact huge generators of negative karma. Including lots of the sorts of business, military, social, interpersonal  and other activities and behaviours you mention. Buddhism for example is quite clear that almost all of us inevitably (because we don't realise the consequences of our actions) accumulate lots of negative karma in every life.

Which as we grow in wisdom and knowledge is progressively offset by good karma arising out of wise and compassionate living and positive actions. Realisation requires burning off the last of our negative karma which is apparently why many who achieve realisation do so at the end of very tough lives.

While it's an incredibly complex topic (negative karma doesn't for example always kick in in the life in which it was generated) intention and/or consequences seem to be key factors. Doing harm to or causing suffering to other beings (including animals, insects and the like, and probably plants and the environment too) whether directly or indirectly, intentionally or unintentionally, knowingly or unknowingly is the primary generator of negative karma.

Intentional knowing wrong doing seems to draw a lot more flak than the unknowing variety...

Hi Doc, good thread. just dropping by to say hi. I am so busy. I wanted to add a single thought here though, that I see the word atonement differently than most folks.

I take it apart like this: At-One-Ment.

to say we are all one in truth. so I see energy as contracting and expanding like a scientist and human personality as different than spirit essence, in that one is eternal and unchanging and one is contracting into physical areas of expression, then death is expansion of energy into home grounds, with the added benefit of experiences gained translating to a fruit of the soul (over time and with time of course)

love is all that remains.

The key to what we get, Seeker, at least according to the perspective I have, is that we generate the whole shebang. There's no distant land called Heaven in which a tyrannical God reaches down to punish or reward according to some obscure tenets. Instead, when you finally look in the cosmic mirror you discover yourself as God, and are surrounded by the love and understanding that pervades the entire cosmos. If you are dedicated to God, you are then able to merge into that Oneness. Else, you do the best you can with whatever tools you have, and build whatever kind of afterlife you sense as appropriate - keeping, of course, all the hangups that prevented you from realizing your God-nature fully.

Once in a while someone tries to give us a list of suggestions about how to live a better life. For example, Moses went out to the burning bush and returned with a list of very useful suggestions. (We also have hippies who burned their own bush and attempted to give us useful suggestions - but not of the same caliber.) These are echoed by similar sets of suggestions from others in other religions. The violating of these is not, of itself, a specific god or bad thing. But the attitude by which we violate them is a moral matter by which we set ourselves up for karmic feedback.

A soldier, one who believes in doing a good job for God and country, might actually be the person about to drop a bomb on us, while we feel just and righteous as we defend ourselves. Similarly, not only in war, but in peace, everybody is right, but nobody is right. I recall a remark by a Civil War soldier - age about 18 - hit with a musket ball and killed in the first minute of the battle. He and his opponents ascended and hovered over the battlefield and were ever so happy to be able to stop fighting so that they could again love one another. It's not what they were doing, but why.

As a result, in death, those clinging to material traits tend to obsess about them, seeking their increase, and eventually are pulled back to reincarnate and experience the karma of those traits. This might, just as in everyday life, include many levels of experiences. Those with spiritual traits are to that degree liberated and freed from such negative stuff. And those who are uncertain or upset, pulled in too many directions, or too terrified to know what to do, might get stuck in the cosmic knothole between life and death and need to be rescued by a soul retrieval.

In this light, God is immanent, and we are the manifestations of God's presence, like the spray as the ocean wave of Creation breaks on the rocks of circumstances and contingtencies. The only separation is our own ignorance, supported by pride and desire.

Interestingly, this is set out in roughly the same manner in the Tibetan classic, Bardo Thodol.

d