http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm

This has been done in a controlled reproducible experiment in the Journal Science.


Fascinating stuff.

Hey Doc!

thanks for posting the link, it is really interesting stuff! I love reading about things like this, slowly but surely the proof is coming and the one day wham! It will be classed as "real" to the science world haha! Well maybe... thanks again

Ryan

Interesting - but notice they say they have recreated sensations with similarities to an OOBE  but they don't draw any spiritual-type conclusions from it. They just state it. Also, at the end they quote a well-known scientific sceptic, who is known to think NDEs are just a product of the dying brain.

I guess the big question which follows from the article is whether or not it implies that OOB experience is purely the result of physical circumstance, or if something more is going on...

Right,

the sceptics will say that OOBEs are hallucinations, and look for the chemical/electrical explanation.  The only problem is, that you base your science on accepted reproducible data from sensory experience, but that does not make science any more of an absolute reality than spirituality.  Those who eschew the spiritual for the scientific sometimes lose heart when the scientific data changes - electrons can be in the same place at the same time (uncertainty principle), or when quantum mechanics is invoked, nothing is either all matter or energy.  

So to me, it is laughable when sceptics challange the existence of the spiritual, because the very nature of our consciousness has not been explained in any meaningful way by sceptics.


Matthew

If NDE's is a product of a dying brain - how can that accouint for facts that people again knowledge about things that they would otherwise never have known. For example, how would a NDE;r know about a sibling that died and was never told about. There are many such accounts. I think that people that simply dismass NDE'ers as a product of a dying brain are closed minded and ignorant. It is clearly more - but the question is what??

I'm not agreeing with Susan Blackmore, just noting they chose to quote her as opposed to a person with spiritual beliefs etc, and they seem to be treating this as an interesting phenomenon, but not saying anything spiritual is taking place. In fact in one bit they say : "Their work suggests a disconnection between the brain circuits that process visual and touch sensory information may thus be responsible for some OBEs." I am just saying being pleased that science is coming round to supporting spirituality  may be a bit premature in this example

Finding that the brain can be stimulated into perceiving displacement from the body is one question - it probably makes sense that it has this ability. The question as to the true nature of OOB experience is another entirely....

Yes, for all I know, if may be possible to stimulate the brain so as to make you think you are tasting an orange, but it wouldn;t mean oranges don;t exist, for example

smacdonald2007 wrote on Aug 24^th, 2007 at 12:51pm:

If NDE's is a product of a dying brain - how can that accouint for facts that people again knowledge about things that they would otherwise never have known. For example, how would a NDE;r know about a sibling that died and was never told about. There are many such accounts.

Because most OBE's are the spirit leaving the body. :)

The most basic scientic question - one not answered is "where do thoughts come from?" and "does the physical brain create thoughts, or is a receptor (like a radio) for the spirit?"

You can electrically stimulate a human brain and cause someone to see a flash of red. or feel happy, aroused or scared.  Does that mean the brain creates consciousness?  In the radio spiritual model, as I call it of the brain, the brain interfaces spirit with physical reality.  Much as if spirit is broadcast in the brain is the radio playing the broadcast in what we call the physical world.  Now if someone took an electrical device or current to my regular radio, I might hear humming, static, or what sounded like voices, but it wouldn't mean that the radio itself was creating the waves from the AM or FM radio station.  Much in the same way, if I can stimulate a person's brain with an electrode and he reports seeing the color red, it doesn't mean that the physical brain caused the thought of red to appear.  

Food for thought.

Doc

Thanks for the link, Matthew

This may merit a trip to the library to see the original article. My initial reactions to the bbc news brief are to ask alot of questions.

I have to think about whether or not I agree with how they are defining out of body experience. Their definition seems a little vague. This seems to me to be an experiment about how we perceive when we are "in" the body.

On the other hand, I see that the news article starts off nonchalantly mentioning that about 10% of people report OBEs. Well you wouldn't have seen that a few years ago! That must be a relief to those who experience them. We now seem to have cultural permission to talk about this without sounding like nut cases.

Hey so maybe if you have to relate this to trying to get more sophisticated video games on the market and quote Blackmore (instead of Monroe) to get published in Science, maybe it's OK. The researchers will plug along with their mechanistic model and then maybe one day they will have a medical application in which treating the virtual body works and they will have a belief system breakdown about what causes disease and then they will be open to discussing real OBEs!

Hi matthew and all I noticed that none of the volunteers had mentioned  about the feeling of vibration in there head just before the OBE'S as thats what i had with my OBE,mine started with a really loud vibration inside my head and i had the OBE,but it was very interesting to read what the scientists are doing.

Love and God bless    Love juditha

will science come to a reasonable satisfactory conclusion about OOBE's being physical or spiritual in my lifetime?  probably not.  but lucky for me, "the other side" has already been proven, because people's dead relatives visit them (the book hello from heaven) and (some) psychics have been scientifically proven to be real (the book the afterlife experiments).  so no matter what conclusion the scientists come to on this issue, the afterlife is real.  


Quote:

slowly but surely the proof is coming and the one day wham! It will be classed as "real" to the science world haha!

the scientists make me laugh because they scoff at anyone who has an alien abduction story, yet they send out radio waves into space to see if aliens respond, and readily admit that alien life is probable, even highly likely.  the other day there was a story about how they have a new theory on how time travel could be a possibility.  so they'll consider time travel but not reincarnation, as if reincarnation is any less weird??   ::)  they are such a strange bunch.  

Lucy wrote on Aug 26^th, 2007 at 9:36am:

On the other hand, I see that the news article starts off nonchalantly mentioning that about 10% of people report OBEs. Well you wouldn't have seen that a few years ago! That must be a relief to those who experience them. We now seem to have cultural permission to talk about this without sounding like nut cases.!

Good point - one step at a time , I guess . That is progress

I'm not sure exactly what happens during their "scientifically created OOBE" but it probably isn't even the same as an Astral travel experience.

For those who know Robert Bruce, he has commented the experiment:

http://www.astraldynamics.com/reference/?BoardID=38&BulletinID=739

Something doesn't sound right with the BBC report.  What does wearing virtual goggles have anything to do with brain waves (alpha, beta, theta, etc...) associated with hemi-sync?

This may be some other phenomenon other than what may be thought of as an OOBE.

Quote Mactek: "Something doesn't sound right with the BBC report.  What does wearing virtual goggles have anything to do with brain waves (alpha, beta, theta, etc...) associated with hemi-sync?"

Some say the principle is the same with Acoustic stimulation like HemiSync (special mix of Binaural Beats mainly, plus hiss, selected frequencies and chords), monaural beats, and stimulation via visual input, strobe lights.

Haven't read the article though.

Spooky