Hi Im just curious about like attracting like in the spirit world as it is a bit confusing,because if we bargain with a group souls before we are born to either be a miserable self satisfying person or a murderer or a really bad person, for either of our spirit's to learn from these experiences on earth, with the group souls we bargained with,for there spirits to learn from it as well.

Then how come when we go over to spirit,it's like atrracts like,so why are we not told when we go over,"Well you played your part on earth so you and your group soul spirit's have learned from your experience,so just move on in to the spirit world,you did a good job."

But instead there's this like attracts like,so when you made the deal,did what you were asked to do, then you pay for it by not being allowed next to a spirit that did nothing but good on the earth,so it is a bit of a two way thing going on here.

I really cant see how our loving God would allow a spirit to make a deal to come down to earth and murder a child ,so its spirit can learn from it,i can't believe in this deal thing before we are born as God gave us freewill and thats what i beleive its all down to freewill.

Love and God bless     Love juditha

Juditha, the lession my not be for the murderer, but for the child, or the parents, or, or, or. I believe that the lession is about the sacrifice and love. The freewill of the soul,( for lack of a better word)to make the choice to die, or to kill, to assist in moving the soul group to a higher level of spritual consciousness. Forgiveness perhaps.(?)

I don't believe it is decided in the spirit World that some people are supposed to become murderers, rapists, child abusers, whatever. Certainly spirit can evolve without such incarnations "intentionally" being created.

I do believe it is understood that people in the physical World do create tough incarnatiions, and whether or not the spirit World likes it, incarnating Souls have to be provided.  Some of these tough incarnations are taken on with the hope that a person will find his or her way clear of the negative influences. Obviously things don't always work out this way. For example, many children who are raised by violent kkk parents, end up being violent racists.

As Hawkeye said, the lesson may be for the victim as well as the perpetrator. Jesus said something to the effect that "Such things must happen, but woe to them by whom they are done."

Young and immature people tend to do impulsive things, poorly thought out, often forceful and imposing on others. Regression feedback suggests that this is also true of immature souls.  Young souls, ignorant of better ways to do things, tend to incarnate into either self-serving roles, or into roles where they try to inflict their will onto others by brute force. With time, maturity leads them to realize that force doesn't work, and that compassion, love, wisdom and joyful activity work much better. And then you get people who remain at low levels of social impact but generally do good.

This seems to be the reason that so many well intentioned people who view themselves as just and righteous get involved with Inquisitions, global conquest, or on a lesser scale, they feel justified and righteous and beat their husbands, wives, children and so on into submission (husband abuse is less reported, but fairly common) because they are certain that this is th proper path to bliss.

Getting these souls from the stage of social infancy to social competency involves a lot of living. So, for example, the guy who was a brutish child molester is his past will need a few incarnations to move to a better point of view as he grows older. One of those will quite likely give some other new soul the opportunity to molest him, while the older soul will realize that this is what he had done in the past, and will be able to reject it as a way of living.

This is a sort of "bootstrap" system in which each level rests on the level below it, as we see more clearly through the fluff and fog of everyday experiences and deeper into the ultimate meaning of life. There is no malice involved. In fact the whole thing operates on love. It is because we love others that we are willing to change, to stop beating on people, to support worthy charities, and to abandon old habits of anger, rejection and dominance. (I have about 6 hours on DVD of a series of regression sessions with a man who went through most of these changes.)

In fact, when on of the dictatorial types goes into spirit it is quite likely that he will both have the pleasure of knowing that all the dictatorial strategies were done with a good will, plus the displeasure of knowing that  after all the tortures and killings, it didn't really work very well. So, being more or less right in the face of God at that time, it seems useful to go on to a better way of doing things, in hopes that life will go on.

That we do this as a "group soul" is more or less like saying that your grandchildren are part of your family. We're all connected. My one vision of this was that there seems to be a mesh of connections that we share at the fringes as individuals, and then as the connections merge the individuals together, moving back toward the Source, they get "thicker" and begin to connect groups of people and so on, until we join with the connections supporting animals and such, and finally all the way back to the one root, connected to what we often refer to as our Higher Self, in the center of the Heart of God. (The Catholic priest Teilhard de Chardin did a very nice description of this - for which he was nearly excimmunicated.)

It isn't that we all get together and figure this out in advance, but rather that we jump in and get our hands dirty, and then try to figure it all out. I often feel that we can look at the various peoples and cultures of the world and generally we can see the levels of spiritual development that some cultures seem to have attained. At the present time, technological development seems to have nothing in common with spirituality, which means that we can also see the same progression in our own world when we move our gaze from brawlers and thugs, to politicians who seek power, then to politicians who seek to benefit the world, to businessmen who cheat, and then those who seek to create a decent product, and finally the common wage earner who is just a happy photographer (Edgar Cayce), engineer (Bruce), health worker (Depak Chopra) or even guru (Dalai Lama), or perhaps a psychic like you.

As another example, one of my patients was doing the piss and moan routine about how bad her life was in the past. So I asked how life was today. She said life was OK. She had a house, food, good friends and adequate finances. "OK," says I, "You might not like the way you arrived at the present situation, but now that you're here it's all right. That's the best you can do. So now just go forward." (She cancelled her next therapy session, saying, "I know what to do ... I just have to do it" )  That seems like the way with all of us.

love
dave

dave_a_mbs wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2007 at 3:37pm:

As Hawkeye said, the lesson may be for the victim as well as the perpetrator. Jesus said something to the effect that "Such things must happen, but woe to them by whom they are done."

I don;t remember that one, but it sounds a bit unfair - like the fact that in traditional Christian theology Jesus incarnated in order to sacrrifice himself for humanity, yet at the same time Judas, who assisted with making that happen - which jesus foresees, hence it was all predestined in some way - is seen as one of the great criminals/sinners of the Bible (in Dante's Inferno he was being chewed in Satan's mouth in the lowest pit of Hell as I recall). Isn;t that a bit tough on him? However I never really saw why his role was necessary anyway, surely the Romans could have managed to arrest Jesus without his help if they wanted to. I put this just as the thoughts occurred to me - not that I think most people here are fundamentalist Christians ..[/quote]



Quote:

She said life was OK. She had a house, food, good friends and adequate finances. "OK," says I, "You might not like the way you arrived at the present situation, but now that you're here it's all right. That's the best you can do. So now just go forward." (She cancelled her next therapy session, saying, "I know what to do ... I just have to do it" )

that sounds a positive outcome - my (uninformed) impression is there are too many people who stay in therapy for ages without acting on it or therapists who encourage navel gazing patients who come back for ages as it pays the bills. For a series of sessions to have helped and for the person to say OK now I know what I need to go and need to go and do it, sounds a result for both parties

I am suspicious of the invented reasons I hear about why people
come down here to play certain roles that have a bad aspect.
It has a mythical quality to it.

Many belief systems have what I call an explanations department.
That is, when something is difficult to explain, in the context of some
preconceived world view, some lame idea is thought up of why this
bad thing had to be. Like, oh, somebody had to learn some
particular lesson, so that is why this bad thing was arranged. This
to me sounds like a system of invented myths. I am not inclined to
believe it.

In my paradigm these myths are not needed. I simply do not presume
that what happens is "supposed to be" good for something. This idea
assumes that someone is in charge producing some sort of ultimate
good. I don't make that assumption. It seems more probable that no
one is in charge of most things, making them happen, they just
happen on their own, from a set of pre-exiting circumstances.
Or someone or something will on rare occasions intervene to make a
good thing happen. But that is the exception.

My view does not assume that what will happen will result in some
ultimate good. Why should I assume that? My observations of things
generally do not lead to the conclusion of ultimate good being
arranged. It could just as easily be ultimate bad. I find it easier
to understand things with an open mind. I don't make the assumption
that there is a reason for this. The actual reason is inherent in the
preceding events.

I also dont presume that I, or anyone, is a "part of God". Why
should I ?  Is Osamaa Bin Laden a part of God? I dont think so.
Why should I? I dont presume we are inherently good. Some of us are,
and some are not.

Because I view the universe as an amoral machine, these is no
assumption that things are going to happen in a good way. They will
happen in a good way sometimes, and other times not. Thus I am in a
state of expectancy that corresponds to reality. So to me reality
does not require silly lame explanations.

Boris, when it comes to Bin Laden, whos God are you speeking of, your belief or his? He most likely believes he is doing good for his God. A religious jihad. Ridiculous to me, but who am I. I am also sure that what I am about write will upset a few people here. I don't hate him. I forgive him and all those who were involved with it. That is not to say I think it was right because I don't believe it was. But inside I know its right for me to forgive him. If you believe like I do, thats there is no death, my anger is that he killed people before they may have been ready to die. There may have been much more good for them to have done before their deaths. I have some anger, not hate. My level or where I am in spiritual awareness won't allow me to have this hate. His beliefs caused the death of a few thousand people yet some of the belivers in Christ have killed tens of thousands. Or even todays goverments, allowing the killing through starvation of tens of thousands more. Even more so all of us who are allowing it to happen because its over there and not here. Its time to move on and forgive. Give up hate and come togeather as a planet under one goverment and save all of our rear ends. Not just those in the US, Canada, or the rest of us in the west. I would find it easer to hate those who are out there profiting from this killing like many in the current US administration. Although I don't even hate them, I'm only dismayed that the change that many are hoping for may not come to 2012 or even later.
Joe

Hi Juditha,

Regarding that idea of 'Like attracts like,"  
I think that's a general principle but not a hard rule applicable to everything.
Actually there's also "Opposites attract," so they would just cancel each other out if they got in a power struggle, lol!
I think they are principles--- just like in music and color, certain principles state that certain notes and colors go with certain other notes and colors, but there are so many variations on it that it doesn't stand as a rule.

Bets

I remember a special on TV of persons who had NDE (near death experience). One was a young woman, who, when coming into her home, disturbed a burglar. He had a knife and started to stab her continuously until she blacked out. She recalled when she left her body and watched the man stabbing her, that her spirit self said to him, "I love you."  With that thought, she became shocked at what she was hearing and said, "NO!"  and remembers going into a struggle for her life before blanking out.  
I often think about this brief interview which I watched on TV. It's one of those questions in my mind --- how can there be evil when there is "God"? I haven't heard an answer from the great beyond, yet. I do know that even when I send out PUL all around me, there is disharmony all around me.  There may be positive and great love, but there has always been some sadness around me. I am not being pessimistic--merely observant. I don't live in a Miss Goody Two-shoe world. And as for any demi-god who lived on the planet, he/she always had an alter-ego. It may have been another person, like Judas or another demi-god/godess, like the relationship of Echo and Nemesis, or the Rich and Famous Buddha who left his fortress to seek out the ghetto.  No matter how great the Greek and Roman gods were, they all destroyed themselves.  
I don't understand evil. I don't understand hate. I don't understand how God can allow the birth of an innocent child with a severe birth defect that  causes that child, from birth, to be destructive, hateful and terrorizing ---from birth because of a malfunction in the brain.  My parents know of a child that was severely mentally retarded at birth and was put immediately into an asylum. I had a friend who was a nurse and cared for children born like this. She couldn't  understand it either. WHY?  That's a very spiritual question. I accept that these things exist in my reality on earth.  Does that make me the Like attracting Like?  I feel sadden by the above--- did I ask for this sadness before I incarnated?  Why would I wish a terrible beginning to another human being?  Am I the culprit who designed evil before  I reached earth?  

Judith has brought up a very profound question.  I do not have the "spiritual" answer. I have many human answers, but they enervate in definition.  

Hi Juditha I used to wonder the same question you asked about like attracting like. maybe it could be that people who have a certain belief system are attracted to those who also have similar beliefs, and this on both levels. opposites attract too, just to be curiosly examining the differences for to learn.

I think basically earth is like a spiritual kindergarden and so we have certain segments, we can call them young souls, and they run amuck like children also run amuck and need disaplining. you can come across grown people and look into their soul easy enough and see they are not spiritually mature or everything that came out of their mouth would not be a whine or a complaint.
the number one rule to grow spiritually, and I think this is a blanket statement, that we have to take responsibility for every evil or unjust incident that comes to rain on our parade and bad things happen to good people all the time simply because we are all here in the soupmix and each of us effect others by our words and deeds. the idea is earth is an experiment for many. we didn't have anything necessarily set in stone destiny, we had some tools is all, and each soul grows the garden of their own soul, their character, while some get the mindset somebody owes them something. its not true. we grow our own consciousness and reality.

the way I see it, a life plan is drawn up, with planners assisting, making suggestions. and on the other side we tend to think rather optimistically, then we can bite off a few more hard knocks than originally planned on..like a set of possibilities for growth were developed based on the tools given to a soul or earned from previous circumstance.

so that if you see a man who says I am self made, its exactly true. theres just is no god dictating how things shall be a garden here. one must have these yearnings before they can manifest. we are gradually getting more in alignment with justice for all, and equality, that sort of thing, but since it is a planet known for its war practices, you can see how it is a big experiment that everyone trys to make their contribution.
as for evil, you will have selfish children mentalities and they are throwing a tantrum is all. then you will see heroism among humanity the same, unselfish acts of love inspire all of us and we must look to these who inspire, and gradually the children will be taught and disaplined by these others as their behavior does not get them what they want. well, its a process, and one of the lessons here is learning extreme patience sometimes. love, alysia

I was wondering if Jesus came to earth to die for our sins by his own free will, or was it  designed or decided by his God before he even was born? Or Moses even? Was there freewill involved?
Joe

To respond to Boris-
The reason that things work out for the good is thermodynamics. Two cases -

(1)     If you have one idea and then acquire another idea later, there is a probability, however large or small, that those two will come together. Their union is a more stable state than their difference. Briefly: For {A} and {B} the probability of thinking of A is 50%. Now allow them to be in additive space. Then there is a probability of forming {A+B}. The beginners are also saved, since thinking an idea doesn't use it up. So we have the additive outcome {A}, {B}, {A+B}. The probability of thinking a thought containing A is 67%. This is a more stable state for both A and B, hence they stay stuck. (This is true for all potential state spaces.)

(2)     Every day you encounter things that affect you. Making random choices, your odds of sucess are 50%, less friction, leakage and nuisance value as your neighbors try to steal a bit. But you learn. You cannot help but learn. Each thing you learn is reinforced or not, leading to acquisition of perpetually better coping strategies that must form because we can't prevent them. (In "artificial intelligence" studies, neural nets are given similar experiences and reinforced for learning. The results are identical.) Thus, your tendency to err declines. Eventually, if you live enough lives, your response set will be in total accord with surrounding reality, and you will be able to deal with any unexpected event. (This is called satchitananda in yoga, and is the mechanism of salvation for Hinayana Buddhism.) That's better than before, and you keep growing anyhow, until you reach total enlightement and reabsorption into God-Mind.

Orlando- You are correct in your evaluation. My job is to give people a good listening to and then get rid of them by  allowing them to handle their own issues.  (An occasional assist with a Size 10 to the backside may help.) The ritual of analytic therapy, "abreaction and decathexis", and payment of my rather substantial fee is the hook by which they buy into the system. That's all. God heals, I just collect the checks and go to the bank.  ;D
dave

Hi joe   Moses did not want to die as he argued with God about it

Moses now laid his hand upon his head and wept bitterly, saying, "To whom shall I now go, that he might implore God's mercy for me?" God was now very angry with Moses because he would not resign himself to the doom that had been sealed, but His wrath vanished as soon as Moses spoke the words: "The Lord, the Lord, a God full of compassion and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy and truth; keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin."

"I want to know," God asked him, "why you are so much aggrieved at your impending death." Moses replied: "I am afraid of the sword of the Angel of Death." God: "If this is the reason then speak no more in this matter, for I will not deliver you into his hand." Moses, however, would not yield, but furthermore said, "Shall my mother Jochebed, to whom my life brought so much grief, suffer sorrow after my death also?" God: "So was it in My mind even before I created the world, and so is the course of the world; every generation has its learned men, every generation has its leaders, every generation has its guides. Up to now it was your duty to guide the people, but now the time is ripe for your disciple Joshua to relieve you of the office destined for him."


Death of Moses on Mount Nebo

Midrash: Moses dies
With God descended from heaven three angels, Michael, Gabriel. and Zagzagel. Gabriel arranged Moses' couch. Michael spread upon it a purple garment, and Zagzagel laid down a woolen pillow. God stationed Himself over Moses' head, Michael to his right, Gabriel to his left, and Zagzagel at his feet, whereupon God addressed Moses: "Cross your feet," and Moses did so. He then said, "Fold your hands and lay them upon your breast," and Moses did so. Then God said, "Close thine eyes," and Moses did so.

Then God spoke to Moses' soul: "My daughter, one hundred and twenty years had I decreed that you should dwell in this righteous man's body, but hesitate not now to leave it, for your time is run." …But the soul replied: "Lord of the world! I desire to remain with this righteous man; for whereas the two angels Azza and Azazel when they descended from heaven to earth, corrupted their way of life and loved the daughters of the earth, so that in punishment You suspended them between heaven and earth, the son of Amram, a creature of flesh and blood, from the day upon which You revealed Yourself from the bush of thorns, has lived apart from his wife. Let me therefore remain where I am."

When Moses saw that his soul refused to leave him, he said to her: "Is this because the Angel of Death wishes to show his power over you?" The soul replied: "Nay, God does not wish to deliver me into the hands of death." Moses: "Will you, perchance, weep when the others will weep at my departure?" The soul: "The Lord has delivered mine eyes from tears."' Moses: " Will you, perchance, go into Hell when I am dead?" The soul: " I will walk before the Lord in the land of the living." When Moses heard these words, he permitted his soul to leave him, saying to her: "Return unto your rest, O my soul; for the Lord hath dealt bountifully with thee." God thereupon took Moses' soul by kissing him upon the mouth.

Moses' activity did not, however, cease with his death, for in heaven he is one of the servants of the Lord. God buried Moses' body in a spot that remained unknown even to Moses himself. Only this is known concerning it, that a subterranean passage connects it with the graves of the Patriarchs. Altough Moses' body lies dead in its grave, it is still as fresh as when he was alive.

Love and God bless     Love juditha

:) Dave said: That's all. God heals, I just collect the checks and go to the bank.
____

thanks Dave for pointing out something important. it is said when the student is ready the teacher appears. as I see it the clients who come to you are sent to you as you would then be the teacher who has appeared to the student who now is ready.

the other point is that money is a symbol. it is paper. paper is made from trees. money has no intrinsic value of itself. on spiritual level, it is a sign of abundance of life as it promotes survival on this society level for the time being as a measure of our worth of service to others. my opinion, and you know this already, I feel you are worth every single dollar that makes its way into your bank account. thank you for your presence here, unpaid as it is! much love, alysia

Hi dave I with aylsia on this one Thankyou for your prescence on here and i think you are worth every single dollar,you help lots of people to go back out in to the world to start living again and thats what me and deanna get from the centre and we would be lost without help from them. :)

Love and God bless  love juditha

hawkeye wrote on Aug 24^th, 2007 at 2:58pm:

I was wondering if Jesus came to earth to die for our sins by his own free will, or was it  designed or decided by his God before he even was born? Or Moses even? Was there freewill involved? Joe

Hi Joe good question. this will be my disclaimer so I do not get roasted on a theological fire that I express opinions while I try to keep to my feelings of love to be on this board.

I see JC as like all humans, only he was a very old soul with many projection fingers into the Earth and the rest of us came along later to get our own experiences. In some metaphysical reading I found JC to have possessed other names in different time periods and have come to see my own lives and so I believe he did not have a single life in which to accomplish what we term miracles such as the resurrection.
I see a probe as a unit of consciousness, that we all come to probe the earth plane. I see a projection, an intelligent unit of consciousness and a probe as basically the same idea. Another useful term is "I am" consciousness.
Such as was found in the bible, when God said "I am that I am."

If this thread turns into an argument I will not be on it, as I do not wish to rock anyone's boat or upset anyone. my love for the man/god is as strong as any of yours and I do not wish to be measuring my love up against anyone elses as it's not important. time is of the essence. we can spend it better in harmony with one another.

that JC is/was god, that we too are god should be self evident, as the one thing I remember from JC's teachings which stayed with me my entire life was that we WILL do the things he has done. The time is now. How to align ourselves with Christ then?
if we accept him as our model. don't forget there are other great beings who can be used as models. How to feel we can see eye to eye with one so great, is to remember JC said "I and the Father are One."  Did he say I am the only one on this planet who is one with the Father?"  No. for the father is not a man, but the father is Light/Pul/order. or what we call Christed consciousness after the ego drops away or is shed. or I should say the errors of the ego, which might be spiritual pride.

its just that he's one of our elder brothers. your question whether JC set out to die for our sins, first we should see sins as errors, then we understand better that judgment of sins is not ours to do. so we need new language. It may be true he came as a sacrifice, to be the lamb, but more than that we did need to know, and we still need to know that we are immortal beings who are under the impression that death is real, simply because we have forgotten our true homes in order to experience this place called Earth vacation/learning/proving grounds, a place where we can learn how to do miracles. I'm sure theres other planets, places, where miracles are entirely not needed! there will come a day miracles will be commonplace, but no less gratefully recieved.
so the resurrection is not really a miracle. JC, a part of god, like you and me, a part of god is one of the wayshowers who points out the body is nothing here. death is not real, but that we hold it over the heads of others to gain control of them, by an ego which is error.

Did he come to sacrifice? But isn't that what love does? would you not jump in a raging river to save your own child from drowning? that is what love does if it's true. you would die for your child the same. the difference between JC and us is he came and depicted a death scene, for a whole nation of peoples, while you and I would die for our children but we're not likely to die for a whole nation's causes. so that makes him complete and whole and Christed and free to not return in flesh unless he chose to do that, and thats rather doubtful so a misinterpretation of when he said he would return, it was his spirit, the holy spirit he left behind to take care of things. Like the SuperMind idea, the oneness premise.
I just spoke with him the other day (I'm making this up gladly) and as a man, he is upset that Christians think he's the only one made a contribution around here spiritually speaking. He thinks worship of him has gone awry to produce less striving in the soul, as after all, he's coming back to whip things in shape, right? wrong.

we are to align with him, if we choose him to be pure PUL manifest. perfect love, but there are other teachers of PUL because none of us are truly separated from God, but that we think we are less than.

I didn't mean to sound like a lecturer and I see Joe as very evolved and I see this board in a very loving way; I often choke up with the beauty I see expressed on this board and it's like god is viewing thru my eyes and this vessel cannot contain the whole of god efficiently, so you will see me as one in error sometimes.
I see this board as a sign of the shift in consciousness, where we step away from religious tenets ever so slowly into the more unlimited vistas of self creation that the masters in times past demonstrated.

love to all :) I have great hopes and you are all my family, where I used to be so alone.

I think what you say makes sense Alysia, although I'd not worked out such a detailed philosophy about it all. Personally I think at least some of the miracles attributed to Jesus are legends rather than fact and I am doubtful as to in what form, if any he came back from the dead. I mean the traditional Christian teaching is that it was his same physical body, but somehow transformed and "glorified", and that he ascended in that same body to Heaven where he is to this day. I find that unlikely and think his physical body ended up in a mass grave or something and he probably appeared to some disciples either in spirit or at most in some temporarily materialised form as we have discussed sometimes seems to happen to this day. I agree I don;t see him as fundamentally different from anyone else, some unique event of God descending into the "flesh"among his creation, but that he was probably a pretty  spiritually developed person and said some things that continue to be an inspiration to others. I am unsure he deliberately sacrificed himself and think his death was more a consequence of his values and teaching etc clashing with the establishment of his day, in the sense that he stuck to them regardless of the risk that could be seen as a sacrifice. I do not personally see any reason to see his "sacrifice"in terms of the cosmic significance the churches have traditionally given it in saving humanity from some previously-existing state of irredeembale sin (and that the saving derived from this also only works if you believe in it).
I don;t think we have to rely on anyone else, however admirable, to "save"us, although other people's example and help can move us along in the right direction.

As for Moses I see him as not very spiritually evolved at all. Just read some of his laws and actions in the first books of the OT... not someone I want to take as my example thanks. [I mean things like death for people who decide to worship a diffferent God or who work on the Sabbath, or even for childen who disobey their parents; or encouraging genocide in the holy land just because he thought God had promised it to his tribe instead - who had been in Egypt for some 500 years or so - and doing things like telling his warriors to kill everyone in an enemy tribe but keep the virgin girls for themselves].

Alysia,Thank you for saying that you think I am evolved. I think I am but a dinosaur in my thinking and that the participants here are so much more further in their quests than I. You more than most. We are the lucky ones that you have found this board.
I see God in all of us. From the sinner to the holy. It would seem to me that this site is visited by a strong contingent of religious followers. It is great to know that more than just Christions are here and can feel free to be heard. We are all seekers of the truth and no matter what/who you believe in, it seems you are welcomed here by most. Like attracting like.
My love to All of you.
Joe  


 

Also, going back to the original question - if you go by the mainstream churches, Jesus IS God, so you can't really see it in terms of God making him do something.. Not that I believe that of course. He is God the Son, and has always existed. The fact he incarnated into a physical body at a point in history apparently doesn't change that.

Maybe it's negative of me to point out things like what I said about Moses, and I guess he had some good points too, but if anything I think it is right that he is found at the start of the book - the Jews' first gropings after what God meant to them if you like (and coming up with a version that probably reflected their violent and intolerant period and their own prejudices as much as anything else) and you can see an evolution towards something more beautiful in some later parts of the OT and then in Jesus' sayings and even in some of what Paul had to say (like the famous passage about love in 1 Corinthains).

Perhaps my confusion around religion and God/Christ come from my education of them. It came from watching TV at Christmas and Easter. You know the movies. Miracles that were interrupted by tampon and beer comericals. Parting of the Red Sea then pass a "Bud" please, or "it's got wings". Its not a wonder that it (christen religion) all seams like a bedtime story made up so as to sell something to someone. Well up to this point I haven't decided to put my money down. To me, the product looks like it might still get recalled. I think I might wait for the "new and improved" version. Or better yet, perhaps I can order a sample and try it out first before buying in.
Joe

well, all you really need to know is this "do unto others as you would have done unto you." and then just know that PUL, love, the "no conditions on it" kind, is what heals a soul and a body as well.

then theres nothing more to say. I mean from my pov. as if you test out these things, in your life, you will find out its true.

Some personal (and still evolving) thoughts on what's a very interesting topic.  ::) Please pardon the indulgence.

First the question of how God can allow unpleasant events to occur. A lot depends on your particular framework of belief, but my sense is that it's an inevitable consequence of our having been given free will and the fact that we seem in this existence to have somehow become separated from God. (attested to by the fact that for most of us it's such a struggle to restore communication so that we are open to receiving continuous and accurate intuitive guidance)

The resulting trial and error process that is all our lives means that errors, wrongdoing and the consequent pain mixed with limited and transient pleasure are inevitable.

It's not that clear  whether or not as is theorised by various traditions that it was set up that way to be a learning school for souls, or a means for God to experience himself in action, or just an unfortunate accident where the chunk of awareness that became the collective of all beings in this reality somehow accidentally slipped into the dream of an independent existence and forgot God. Or something else entirely.

Leading to some traditions holding the view that there's no learning to be done (since God knows all anyway), that all we have to do is drop the ego (big ask = instant death of self), and that this idea of a learning path is just a kite flown by the ego to divert us into thinking we can only get back after lifetimes upon lifetimes of slog. (others of course teach or imply that this is the case - but both I guess may simultaneously be true)

There's not necessarily a devil, at least not as an initiator of the whole show. We're well able to do plenty of harm and cause plenty of pain on our own by our unwise and incompassionate actions in our state of disconnection from God. Even our insatiable urge to individuality, our bottomless greed for material things and  as a result building ever more complexity and layers into existence takes us further from God - obvious if you view God as unity.

It's not by accident that too much thought/too much mental activity (the inevitable result of this) blocks our connection to God. This leading to hermits, monastic traditions, the need for simplification of life and the like and begs serious questions as to the compatibility  of our technological/commercially driven lifestyle with the spiritual path. The concept of an independent and objectively existing devil maybe amounts to an egotistical refusal to accept responsibility for all of this.

That doesn't mind you mean that negative entities have not over the aeons of history been formed by the minds/souls or intentions of the many who have slipped further from God than most. And subsequently grew in strength through misplaced prayer, worship and belief of others to become something which while still very much subservient to God we'd have trouble distinguishing from the mythical devil of conventional religion.

The good news I guess is that it's fairly clear that while our base animal instincts always drive us into selfishness and away from God (doing ever more harm to others as we go, and as we develop technological capability) that Grace/higher mind exerts an opposing pull too. Which gets stronger as we raise our consciousness - to the point where eventually we become incapable of acting out of anything but wisdom and compassion/of doing anything but God's will.

This seems to manifest too in the way this reality operates. The law of attraction being an example. Love bringing love and aggression bringing aggression and violence into our lives being maybe the most basic. Although it's incredible how subtly it acts to even in our current life reflect what we put out. 'As ye sow so shall ye reap' is perhaps the greatest indicator that there's a Divine plan - whether or not it's a rescue mission for beings gone wrong, or the plan from the start or more likely the whole lot all at once.

It seems to me that while the law of attraction is often something fundamental (divine law or karma in action) and proceeds regardless of whether we are conscious of it or not that there is an egotistical attraction process which is quite different.

This latter is grasping. (chasing after what we consciously consider pleasurable or attractive and ducking pain)  That's ego driven personal action or manifestation of free will, and as such only a subset of or an initiator in the great web of cause and consequence which determines our experience. Buddism teaches that ALL pain and suffering flow from egotistical grasping - that grasping blocks higher knowing or maybe you could say (Buddhism does not per se) Divine guidance.. Put in other words - God won't force your compliance, but we all eventually will realise through life experience  that happiness follows from alignment of our will with that of God.

It's possible to square the question of 'how does a loving God allow free will and the resulting error and pain in the world'. The similie is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle as used to describe the structure of an atom. This at my simple level says that while from our perspective a block of wood remains unchangingly a block of wood (subject only to natural decay) the atoms which comprise it are in a state of continuous change - that you can't ever predict where all of the electrons (and other particles?) are at a given moment. Not only that, but these particles assume differing forms depending on how you observe them. (sometimes behaving like particles, sometimes like rays) So best of all - the intentions of the observer (little old us) influence what's going on at the atomic level.(the likes of Gary Zukav ans Fritjof Capra have written beautifully about this (which is now mainstream particle physics) and it's implications for spirituaility.

You might argue it's a leap too far to take this to the God/Cosmos level but here goes. God is an absolute reality. Omnipresent, no time, no space, all knowing, all loving. The viewer of the unchanging block of wood which is the cosmos from His perspective - an observer who can influence events within that block at the micro level without changing it's form as a block of wood. It doesn't seem that big a jump for us all our rushing around and our little advances and reverses to be the equivalent of the atoms flying around in the block of wood.

So that viewed at a point in our time things can be up, or things could be down but ultimately there's only one possible outcome. (the Divine equivalent of the unchanging block of wood) So basically free will  and Godly intervention are possible within this reality - even  a degree of apparently random or non pre-destined action - without the outcome being in doubt.

The bit I find tough is the question of where its all going in our lifetimes. Lots of us feel that it can't go on, but then that's always been a feature of the beliefs of spiritual traditions and yet we're still here. I guess none of this necessarily requires magical happenings in the run up to 2012. Even if stuff is happening it may as we've discussed before be so gradual at our level of incredibly fine detail (years and a precise location vs. aeons and the total Cosmos) as to only be obvious to the very sensitive and aware. It very possibly won't even be apparent to those who haven't wakened a little yet.

Worst of all I'm not convinced that the sort of complex discussion I've just tabled and am drawn towards has for the reason above any ability to assist us on our path. Additional understanding may dissolve fears which block progress, but the additional mental churn is almost certainly a negative factor.

This thread has shown that the issues relative to how we live can be tackled at all sorts of levels. Laffing for example operates at a much more human and personal level - and is probably all the more effective an influencer of others to the good for that. Maybe we'd all do better if we just disappeared off into the desert and stopped feeding those minds!!! ( ;) that's an invite to responses! )

Love to you all....

ian

LaffingRain wrote on Aug 25^th, 2007 at 1:14am:

well, all you really need to know is this "do unto others as you would have done unto you." and then just know that PUL, love, the "no conditions on it" kind, is what heals a soul and a body as well. then theres nothing more to say. I mean from my pov. as if you test out these things, in your life, you will find out its true.

that really sums it up Alysia doesn't it? And , although I didn;t post on the current Jesus thread, I think that was the gist of what he wanted to say too - not "believe certain things about me" but "be loving and forgiving to each other like I try to show you to be - and think of trying to create  the 'Kingdom of God' here and now , not just as something you just hope  for in the future"

yes Orlando, I do believe you are a quick minded individual who grasps simple principle.
it may boil down to having faith, such a nasty word that has become, I'm sorry for that, but faith is beyond believing and we have to have a belief first.
it may be to have faith in one another as god is not starkly visible on this earth, unless one looks into their heart. its just that there are so many commercials here. distractions. I mean in the world. this board has got their commercials too, but we usually get around to the nitty gritty sooner or later  ;)

I'm aware if we all could see spirits, or talk to them, we would have our proof we do survive death and this knowledge would thrust us into the new age all the faster as a whole, but we have to be satisfied with the little progress we can make by sharing our experiences, dreams, and desires, and by reading books too. I spoke with spirits at age 18 but it is something not generally accepted, still I have to talk about it, and we all have to talk or we get nowhere at all, as a whole.

Vajra, I'm reading Destiny of Souls now by Newton, I told Oliver I was earlier and it is opening up some thought about these other levels of spirit, where we go upon transition according to many voices in the book, not just Newton. so hard to define, the non physical, but you did a good job with the block of wood and the particles within the wood idea. along with that what I'm picking up on is the order of the universe, upon transition there is an exquisite order, there are currents, I too have experienced the currents of movement within obe, and within an NDE, where an aspect of myself died. so I enjoy the book and recommend it to explorers. frequently the voyagers experience awe at the largeness of the space and how they gravitate each towards their own group whom they immediately recognize, that is the best part of all and I found this to be true during my NDE, we will gravitate with no effort there, its like the disc idea presented here.
its like having a luxury auto without having to make the payments! with the top down!

I assure you, on the ride itself there were no intellectual assignments.... :D

love to all, I only read you partially tonite Vajra, but you  certainly come up with a lot of concepts I like to look at later. love, alysia