I am 19 years old, and I have astral projected often. During astral projections, I have seen both the physical, astral, and what I consider other dimensions.

It tells me a lot, lol, seeing the astral dimension and all. It means we exist in two or more dimensions at once.

Tell me: Is the "world" we live in just God's dream? Could we be a figment of God's imagination?

It is cool and kinda scary if you think about it.

Thanks.

Neat idea, EliteNYC!

I'd be honored to be in God's dreams !
( I'd be honored to be in any friend's dream.)
God would I suppose be a lucid dreamer par excellence?
And as a part of God's mind, I am eternal.

Betson

i think there's no difference between a dream and reality

a dream is real when it happens

I agree with the below. I'll add, if we didn't have anything to experience, not even love, what would be the point of existing as awareness beings? The key is to get to the point where we experience an existence that is completely fulfilling.


the_seeker wrote on Aug 21^st, 2007 at 11:34am:

i think there's no difference between a dream and reality a dream is real when it happens

EliteNYC,


EliteNYC wrote on Aug 21^st, 2007 at 8:21am:

Is the "world" we live in just God's dream? Could we be a figment of God's imagination?

As a kid I tried to understand what God was and your thought reminds me of what I came up with.  I was told God was Omnipresent, so It had to always be everywhere at the same time.  It was All-Knowing, so It had to know everything.  I was also told that the stars and planets I could see were just a tiny number of all of them that existed in the Universe, and that the Universe was bigger than anything I could imagine.

My 6-year old boy logic was:

For God to always be everywhere at once whatever God is had to be at least as big as the Universe just to have all of the Universe fit inside whatever God is.

For God to always know everything that was happening in the Universe God's brain by Itself had to be at least as big as the Universe in order for everything in the Universe fit into the Mind of God.  

So, that meant that the easiest way for me as a 6-year old to understand what God is is to think of everything I can see in the Universe as "thoughts in the Mind of God."  So the Moon is just the thought of the Moon in the Mind of God.  Suns, stars, planets, oceans, lakes, rocks, trees, you and me, etc: just the thought of that thing in the Mind of God.

Somehow as a 6-year old I was satisfied by that explanation, and as an almost 60-year old and can't say as I would change that understanding at all as a result of all the explorations and ponderings I've done.

"A figment of God's imagination."  Pretty persistant figments that seem pretty real if you are one of them I'd say.

Bruce

Hi Elite-
Bets' expression is probably closest to my take on this reality thing, at which level I also agree with Seeker. But this is a fun place to play because it's kinda strange.

However, if you look at the cosmology of it, it gets even stranger. Let's assume that you could go out into "voidness" - that's a place with no size, no shape, no form, no dimension, no color, no taste etc. But assume that you could put yourself in voidness, perhaps with one of those "extra dimensions". Then have a look at the real universe, sitting there, all surrounded by voidness. The universe is a bubble of reality stuck in nothingness. When we ask how it got here we are forced to say that there was, in St Thomas Aquinas' terms, an "Uncaused Cause" that produced it. And when we start looking at the tools that the Uncaused Cause might have used, we discover that just about any way to twist potentialities around themselves can give rise to the tangle of relationships that we call real.  Further, by isolating reality in this way, we have a situation in which we can see that nothing is being brought in from outside, and nothing is being taken away.

Looking at reality from outside, as it forms, we might see a bubble emerging into emptiness as the world expands. A physical scientist would look at this and consider the forces and probabilities and would try to figure out how it works. The late Archibald Wheeler was an eminent physicist who came to the conclusion that everything actually seems to be a bunch of interacting information. If we call the Uncaused Cause "God", and look at reality as a projection from this God, then it makes sense to call reality "a dream flitting through the mind of God".

From the inside of the bubble of reality floating in the void, what we experience is part of the process of interaction of the different parts of reality and the people that live here. For us insiders, reality is most readily known through meditative processes, insight, techniques of transcendental inquiry and yoga. Thus we have a person who describes experiences, metaphysical creative powers, and a focus on good works and love. This person senses participation in the projection that emerges from the God-Cause, and may tell us that in samadhi there is a merger, a union, with what seems to be the Mind of God. We have any number of yogis and mystics repeating this message. However, because we can feel it when we drop a fry pan on our favorite toe, we also claim reality to be "solid" or "real".

By taking these two perspectives and doing a bit of juggling, we can come to the conclusion that reality is "real" because it has parts that are more or less enduring and that interact in rigidly defined ways. Big Bang theorists have suggested that what we are today is the still-expanding wavefront of the instant of creation, as it expands outward, and that it all can eventually be resolved into thermodynamics. AND we can call it all "a dream" because it is only known as a subjective experience, and seems to have popped into existence from nothing, and thus is necessarily formed out of the nature of the potentialities of nothing, which is wholly abstract. Holy men of all ages have sought to impress upon us that reality is one with the nature of the Creator, and that we, as parts of all that, are also part of the Creator - we just aren't aware of it. In that case, everything is a figment of God's imagination, including us.

My suggestion is to view reality in the terms that make the most sense to you personally, since you have no other options anyway. Meanwhile, keep up with your metaphysical practice - 19 is a good age for meditation - and if you want to do science too, go for it. The ultimate resolution of your question is available, but will generally come to you in full after you get through with your present lifetime.  In between - welcome to the human state of being neither real nor unreal.

dave

Perhaps a key is to not make a distinction between thought and energy.

The creative thought energy that comes from God, is just as real as awareness (consciousness), even though it isn't changeless like awareness. Awareness only seems to change as diffferent things are experienced.

In line with the above way of thinking, despite vibratory rate differences, the distinction between the physical World and spirit World is conceptual.

If something exists, then it exists. Even if it seems to do so only temporarly, this is according to the concept of linear time.

Rene Descartes said, "I think. Therefore I am."
God Thinks--- therefore we are.
God is pure thought--- therefore, IT is.
In the event that "we" don't exist, we do in the mind and memory of "God."
A paradox--- pure and "simple".   [smiley=engel017.gif]

And then, Identicat, we come to the rabble rouser who thinks he doesn't exist ...

I often get technical people who claim, "I don't believe in God." My usual response is, "That's OK. God believes in you."
;-)
d

Hi Elite I personally don't think that this world is Gods dream as there is to much hate and violence in this world and not enough love,so i would say that this world is more God's nightmare than his dream as his dream was that we love one another.

Love and God bless     Love juditha

The idea that god is everywhere in everything, and the idea that
god is good and loving, are logically incompatible. There is no way
that you can say that there is a good god in everything. It amazes
me that even supposedly enlightened people continue with this
delusion, even after the disasters of  hurricane Katrina, the
tsunami at Sri Lanka, and the earthquake at Bam, Iran.

I just learned this week about yet another horrible parasite. This
parasite is misnamed the heartworm, but it is in fact a lung worm.
It looks like a string of spaghetti, and infests the lungs of cats
and dogs, eventually killing them. Symptoms are like difficulty
breathing. It is transmitted by another horrible creature, the
mosquito. The existence of the flea, and a hundred other types of
parasites, proves that this creation is not good or moral. These
creatures are not the creations of a moral loving god. Also, the
whole biological system runs on predation, and has since the
beginning of life. Most creatures live in fear of predators.

The physical universe is an amoral machine, in which perfect
physical laws produce imperfect random results that are both good
and bad. It is not under the direction and control of a moral god.
All you have to do, to see this, is look at the evidence. Forces of
good have occasional input into the operation of this machine, but
they are not the primary controlling factor, nor the designing
principle. Pure Unconditional Love is not the principle of
operation.  The evidence shows this. The principle of operation is
whatever can happen will happen, and whatever survives is
permitted, regardless of any human type of morality. In this
design, time does not matter, there is no specified plan or
intention, except where the intentions of intelligent entities make
input into the machine. Otherwise it continues to run as it has for
billions of years, without regard for the welfare of man or beast.

Religious and mystical people are so addicted to the idea of a
parental god, that they are unable to deal with this reality.
There are no mainline religions that can deal with the horrors that
I have just described. What happens is that human minds become
schizo, and divide their mind into two compartments. In one, they
look at the unpleasant physical realities of nature that I have
described. In another part of the mind they store, in a protected
environment, the idea of the parental loving god. Thoughts about
the horrible creatures are not allowed into this compartment. This
is to enable a false paradigm to be constructed and preserved there.
There is a complete refusal to allow reality to be integrated into
this paradigm.

But I, being a logical Vulcan, have long ago integrated this, into
the paradigm I have briefly described above, and I still come up
with a positive outlook. This positive outlook is based on our
great success as the dominant species, and our ability so solve our
problems, and the brilliance of our inventors. And the fact that we
can live a good life in spite of the hazards, once we learn how.
I do not need the artificial palliative of false invented beliefs.
I can live well in a fully realistic context.

One of the reasons that this delusion, that the physical universe
is the work of a loving god, continues, is that we encounter love
in the afterlife and in astral exploration. People return to life
after an NDE experience with stories of "the love that passeth all
understanding", as the apostle Paul put it. So stored in our
unconscious mind, is this image from a higher dimension.
But the reality is, that this does not apply to Earth. People keep
trying to think that way, but it does not work, does not apply.
Heavens are creations of our idealism, plus whatever else goes into
their creation. But the difference between heaven and Earth is
huge, such that Earth and its creatures do not express the ideals
of heaven, no way. In fact, I have listed the huge difference
between the principle of operation between heaven and Earth, as
dilemma number one.

We can improve the quality of life here by applying moral ideas
that are stored in the higher heavens. But the original principles
of operation of nature will not be changed, will still be what they
are. Nature will still produce awful creatures that are our
enemies, and events that are disasters. And they will not be the
work of an imagined loving god, and will certainly not expess PUL.

Boris:

I look at it this way. The awareness with which all of us experience existence comes from God and no other place. Where else could it come from?

Each of us became individual Souls because fragments of God's consciousness were allowed to do so. Each of us is also provided with the ability to create, so we can help God and ourselves with the process of discovering what's possible, to add new characteristics to his overall being, and so we can each develop our own uniqueness.

Because God isn't a ruthless dictator, he gave each of the freedom to create according to our own choices. In the process many of us get lost for a while. Eventually we find our way out of our confusion, and use our ability to create in a manner that is reflective of divine wisdom, love and will.

As all of this goes on God never stops being aware of everything that is created, because after all, everything happens within his awareness. I've found through my experiences that both God and I are aware of what goes on within my field of awareness and creative energy. The more I become free of limiting thought patterns, the more I see things according to the comprehensive perspective through which God sees me.

Juditha, I find it interesting that you, one of the most religious
people here, are somewhat in agreement with me about the physical
universe, that it is not the product of a good god.

I am at war with religious delusion, because I follow the middle
East, which is a hell on Earth, created by religious delusion.
It is my thinking that by getting rid of the delusions, and
substituting actual reality based on visible evidence, that we can
correct some major Earth problems. You are further along on this
road than others, simply because of your ability to perceive
reality and describe it as it is, which most religious and
spiritual persons cannot do. They can superficially see it, but
they dont integrate it into their beliefs.

I hope in time to pass along to you my more positive view, based on
the actual reality of human progress.

If people started out with the paradigm that I am building, of
belief based on evidence, they would escape some of the belief
system crashes and the disappointments of life, that come from a
false starting belief, that is in conflict with obvious reality.

love, Boris

Relating to what Boris wrote, I guess there are two choices:

1. Either God can take self determination out of the picture and create us with pre-determined programs or control us like puppets, or
2. God can allow for self determination which results in some of us making mistakes.

The play of opposites that exist in the physical World provides the opportunity for specific kinds of learning, growth and experimentation.  Unfortunately, mankind has allowed the experimentation to get way out of hand.

The collective consciousness of this planet takes us on many paths both rewarding and destructive. We are in a period of shift in consciousness and there are some negetive affects of this shift as the humans on this planet are divided on issues such as global warming, globalisation/modernisation and materialism vs spirituality.

Natural disasters, war and violence have been a reality on earth for many millenia due to the evolution of our consciousness that is exploring the concepts of fear, belief and trying to understand life that appears to be thrown at us. Individuals and groups feel powerless to begin with so the use of force and control creates power. We are emotionally attached to our viewpoints and fear others who challenge and oppose us. The majority of individuals are peaceful but there have always been enough of us to create conflict and division.

The holier art than thou attitude still exists in an age even when we know the consequences. Parts of the consciousness (nations, religious groups) keep treading over the same ground. The Arab-Israeli conflict - a classic example of a self destructive cycle.

I don't think its all for nothing, even though it seems anarchic - war, disease, hunger, the destruction of the environment, the extinction of species, the problems that the planet appears plagued by. Life on earth I don't think was meant to be a perfect paradise without any effort. Everything that has happened in the past has led us to the situation we are in now. But we can embrace a future where we choose out of love and free choice or continue to see ourselves as limited, imperfect and a divisive consciousness that is unaware in C1 of its own interconnectedness. Continue to delude ourselves.

So perhaps we live in the god/goddess/the all that is's dream but this is a dream where we can choose the direction. People aren't so powerless, its just so many see themselves as powerless.

I AM YOU! YOU ARE ME!

Never say die

A Question, Boris-
In a single world carved somehow out of emptiness by an existential tendency that we call "God" (although I often use the term "thermodynamics") and which is equally explicable in terms of phsyics as well as metaphysics, how could there be evolution?

The only possible answer is that the parts of the world must interact. And to do that, there will have to be many levels - from Planck size of 10^-35 meters long and 10^-44 seconds duration, right up to 28 x 10⁹ LY wide and at least 14 billion years old.

As early critics of moral philosophy used to complain, Nature is "red in tooth and claw". But how else could it be?

This way, everything that happens is brand new - never before seen, never before accomplished, and thus is a creative activity. We are the fingers and toes of God. We think the thoughts of God. We are the wavefront of creativity that acts to organize this fledgeling reality as it projects itself ever farther into the Void. Thus we are part of a wonderful cooperative effort through which we grow up through the ranks and pay our dues, and then go on, hopefully, as Edgar Cayce put it, to become "Co-Creators wth God".  There is no other outcome possible.

dave

I am not sure what your question is, Dave, but I do agree with your
comment that everything is connected.

As I look at my own aura, I realize how tightly connected it is to
me. I can't be separated from it without some major thing
happening. It follows me everywhere in an intimate and intricate
connection.

Yet I think of it at being a part of the invisible world, where
everything is so different, and the rules are so different. I am
carrying with me, a part of the invisible world, all the time. I
have commented in another post about how huge the difference is
between heaven and earth, that they run on different principles,
and how hard it is sometimes to get any communication between
heaven and earth. Yet here is this thing, my aura, that is really
part of the other world. Yet it is absolutely tightly connected to
me all the time. Its inseparable.

Bruce's current post here tells a story about all sorts of
connection happening, such that Ken was able to see everything, all
the versions of Bruce in the different groups. So I cant come along
and say that the physical mechanical world is separated from the
rest, going its own way independently, as if it were only a
machine.

The laws of physics still seem to be the primary determiner of
physical events. But every living thing has some sort of spirit in
it. Plants have auras, that can be seen by some humans and some
animals. So here I am, carrying around with me, my aura that
constitutes a very strong connection to a very different kind of
world. And Bruce is telling us that that world is also
interconnected all over the place.

While the physical world is obeying the laws of physics, the invisible
world is following its different rules, and these two different worlds
were all created together and interact together.

Hi Boris-
I'm not arguing with you, but I'm especially looking at your recitation of the unmannerly beasties that lurk out there awaiting somebody to eat, bite, infect, or otherwise bother. My point is simply that if we were to "invent" this reality in such a state that it would be self-educating and self-developing, we'd wind up with essentially what we see today. All the partially aware scientific disciplines claim a part of the answer, as do religions, but as you have stated, in the end all of those "answers" turn out to be part of a much larger global expression of a single principle.

I can't think of a way to build a universe without mosquitos, worms, tiny biting flies and so on. However, I do think of several ways that in my present form I can protect myself from such pests. A fine mesh window screen seems to keep out anything that flies, and basic standards of purity and cleanliness reduce the tendency for parasites.

The same kind of filtration on a larger scale seems moderately effective in getting rid of unwanted door-to-door salesmen flogging the latest floor sweeper or  unwanted intruders in my study. By selection of my life style I manage to get rid of the majority of thugs, goons and crazies, including those who are compulsively absorbed in screaming about their own ideas of how life must occur.

But all of these seem to be necessary. I recall the objection that if God knew that these were unpleasant, then God would remove them. Otherwise, either God is malicious for leaving these things, or, being unable to remove them, God must be impotent. I disagree. I take the perspective that all of these are necessary, as we learn nothing by settling into a comfortable pattern of stasis. A rock can do that, and gets nowhere. However, the biting bugs can grow up to be pollinators of crops, the crazies can get sane, the intruders can become productive citizens etc. And even people like me can grow from ignorance to a substantially broader perspective.

This is the ultimate meaning of everything being everything else.  We have to allow a lot of "everything else" to occur.

Given that, I am with you in a search for a simple global perspective in which we can equally express the physics of plant growth, auras, Kirlian anomalies, partnered activities in the astral, and sub-atomic processes. This is just the next level of connection.

Interestingly, a few days ago I was reviewing the Kaluza-Klein theories from which "string theory" emerged. In essence, Kaluza took two different phenomena, gravity and electromagnetism, and asked how many more dimensions might be needed in order to reconcile the two in commensurable terms. He started with about 26 added dimensions, later whittled down to about 5 or 6 by Klein. The idea is rather like taking an article in Greek and one in Urdu and translating both into French so that you can study an English translation that analyzes the single French text.

This is also rather like taking all our psychic data, Juditha's world, Bruce's world, your world, Vajra's world, the physical world, Alysia's world, my world, and so on, and asking how many conceptual dimensions do we need in order to express all of these as a single theory in which all these subsets are commensurable. This would be the ultimate theory that defines what it means "to be connected all over the place".  And I strongly suspect that in this we will discover mosquitos, biting flies, door-to-door salesmen and parasitic worms. We will also discover window screens, effective door closures, and ear plugs.

dave

Hi boris and dave and all.  I have always felt that God is the spirit thats inside us, but the spirit world in which our loving God resides as does his beloved son Jesus,it is the ultimate place of rest and love after all our earth lives come to an end.The physical world has beauty but it also has a lot of hatred and misery,the spirit world is where there is nothing but beauty and love.

The earth life is the living hell and i know we can create our own hell but not always, as hells can come to us through no choice of our own and there is only small bits of love and small bits of happiness on this physical earth but such a large bit is misery,suffering,disease etc,and whatever we do with our lives on this earth,we try to spread love thats either wanted from us or not wanted from us but we keep trying anyway.

These horrible insects that spread disease are not the work of God as these come along because cells grow and things like these are formed,its like the plague what took all those lives was because there was no proper hygene in those days,there were a lot of rats running about and this was the cause of the plague,not down to our loving God,as when they died and we die God receives our spirit into his heaven of pure unconditional love,where pain,violence,disease and pain does not exist.

I remember my mom calling God everything when my dad died and i told her that God was not to blame,God did not give him heart disease,God just received his spirit into his heaven of love and i know my dad is in a lot better world than i am,Gods dream is the spirit world where only love exists and Gods nightmare is the physical world because of what goes on day after day(Hell on Earth.Our loving God knows we make our mistakes through life and we are none of us perfect but his love is always there.This is what i feel about it all.



Love and God bless    Love  Juditha