We've expressed quite a lot of concern about the millenial tendency in certain of the Christian churches. Please don't read this as a politically inspired post, but this is the sort of strand that worries many of us Europeans: http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer

Especially since it's worryingly involved in and apparently taken seriously by some mainstream US politicians. Their views (or at least those of their constituency) can even if indirectly be discerned in many of the Bush administration's policies and decisions.

For example their recent Washington conference reportedly included several former and current US senators, Joe Liebermann, John DeLay and Rick Santorum. John McCain apparently paid a surprise visit. Video of the proceedings was here until recently, but seems to have become inaccessible: http://www.matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/07/christians_united_for_israel.php

CUFI reportedly have no problem with armageddon, on the basis that if you delay Armageddon you delay the rapture. They promote what seems to amount to unconditional support for israel justified by biblical quotes, and argue for 'taking out' Iran, and staying in Iraq to prevent Muslims ('who have satan behind them') taking over and following 'us' here.

I'd be the first to agree that we live in 'interesting times' (as I have already done) but this kind of stuff   is driven by something far removed from love, wisdom and compassion. The game is surely to get through these times with minimum damage and maximum awakening.

It gets really interesting if you think through the psychology which may be driving it.

It'd be a joke except that despite its failures using armed force so far the Bush administration has just turned down dialogue with Iran and the like in favour of pumping $50 billion in arms into Saudi Arabia and Israel - all the while hyping Iran as a huge threat.

I guess the big questions revolve around how influential these groups truly are in US politics and decision making, and what can or should the likes of this group be doing about it?

PS maybe this thread belongs on a different topic.....

Greetings Vajra   :) ,

I think there's something on the guidelines that says we're supposed to stay away from political topics, but I can't find it right now. However the current leadership group is distorting or corrupting the concepts of afterlife, so maybe it's OK to go on--?

I just googled 'anti b sh bumper stickers' and got 1,370,000 sites! (not hits) with something to say one way or another on that topic. Perhaps if you saw the satire and sarcasm being leveled against this armeggedon movement and it's leaders, you'd feel better.  But  I don't know where such people are when it comes time to vote, or even if voting is accurately recorded anymore. Neither do I know what it will take to get political change here in the US.

. Biblically inspired fear of armeggedon is a biggie, a sure bet that many many voter/souls will be tuned in to it.  Those in power may be using fear to expand their political and financial base. Fear is always a great motivator, as we've discussed here many times. :'(

Various groups are working on  m  p e a c h  me n tbut the consolidated power is very entrenched.

How long has it been since we have heard the words 'statesman' or 'diplomat' used as a positive mark of respect? None of those names you've mentionned have it.

Probably this thread belongs on a different board!  ;)

Lotsaluck!Bets  

Thanks Bets. That's a bit more reassuring. To whoever is in charge - feel free to remove it if it's over the line....

I have often heard that some evangelical Christians have absolutely no problem with Armageddon, as you say, as it is an expected fore-runner to the second coming etc. It is worrying if that influences some politicians..

PS this.... "There is a new Hitler in the Middle East - President Ahmadinejad " suggests to me they may think he's the Antichrist..

This sort of thing happens because some people interpret the Book of Revelations as futuristic rather than relating to events that occurred when the book was written.

When Jesus was asked what the most important commandments are he first answered love thy lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy mind and all thy Soul. The next most important commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself.

What does believing it is okay for billions of your fellow humans to go through what they supposedly have to go through if the rapture viewpoint is true, have to do with loving your neighbor as yourself? It has absolutely nothing to do with love. It is all about a self centered "I'm one of the special ones" approach. Do people actually believe they are going to be able to be happy in heaven, if they have the understanding that billions of Souls are suffering in hell for all of eternity? Suffering is suffering no matter who experiences it.

It is also dishonest to claim that one is loving God with all of one's heart, mind and Soul, if one judges God to be a being who is going to send billions of his children to hell for all of eternity, simply because they haven't come around to believing in a "particular way."

yes i agree it's a self-centered belief.  they think they're one of the special ones and everyone else is going to hell because they didn't believe in their favorite book  ::)

they think armageddon is inevitable or even desirable.

and also it gives them a wonderful excuse to ignore the environment, because if God's coming really soon anyway, what use will the earth be???

also the bible says "have dominion over the animals" so forget being a vegetarian, eat steak for every meal!   and "be fruitful and multiply" so don't try to reduce the population!  

With respect to politicians, there are two authorities that I feel should be kept in mind.

In Utopia etc, Plato suggested that the people best suited to be leaders are those who tend to be least interested in the office, and that those who seek an office are generally least qualified to hold it.

The metaphysical equivalent is that young souls feel they can fix the world through conflict, fear and force, while older souls know that only through love, happiness and wisdom will true growth occur. I occasionally think of this when I'm reminded that people hate my country because of what it's doing and how.  :-X

The other authority is Robin Williams who observed that politicians are like diapers. They ought to be changed frequently, and for the same reasons.

:-)
dave

dave_a_mbs wrote on Aug 14^th, 2007 at 4:23pm:

With respect to politicians, there are two authorities that I feel should be kept in mind. In Utopia etc, Plato suggested that the people best suited to be leaders are those who tend to be least interested in the office, and that those who seek an office are generally least qualified to hold it. The metaphysical equivalent is that young souls feel they can fix the world through conflict, fear and force, while older souls know that only through love, happiness and wisdom will true growth occur. I occasionally think of this when I'm reminded that people hate my country because of what it's doing and how.  :-X The other authority is Robin Williams who observed that politicians are like diapers. They ought to be changed frequently, and for the same reasons. :-) dave

Big problem with demcoracies, your first point. But then it's the best system we've come up with yet isn't it?

As for the last bit  ;D ;D

I guess the problem with democracy is that it's built around the assumption of the need to put a balancing force in the hands of the people to control those in power. The unwanted side effect is that it as you guys say produces in large part a mediocrity representative of the lowest common denominator in a society.

Not to mention the fact that the will of the majority is one thing, and what those in power can get away with doing is another entirely.

The traditional Shambhala Buddhist teachings set out a rather beautiful perspective on how things could be if only both ourselves and our leaders could behave in a more realised (wiser, more loving and more compassionate and less self interested) manner. Shambhala: The sacred Path of the Warrior by Chogyam Trungpa looks at this question. Democracy for example becomes unnecessary if you have enlightened leadership that teaches and leads by example.

Until then it seems its diaper politics - that's a really good line Dave.  :) And pray like mad that humanity is going to make it.

It's maybe worth saying from this side of the pond that most probably see the current situation in the US as not representative of the views of the majority, and most certainly don't hold a blanket anti US point of view. The US is an amazing country that has delivered so much that is good too.

On the other hand they are (around here at least) equally a bit bemused as to how the current lot got such a grip on power. It's worrying how hard it is to rein in an Administration, just how strong a grip the vested interests have, and how inexorable the pressure from the public for ever increasing standards of living is everywhere.

Which gets us back to the original question. What is the enlightened response to all of this??? It goes without saying that most of us hold views so far out there that the sort of positions we hold are (rightly or wrongly) probably (barring miracles) unlikely to become mainstream any time soon. Not to mention that we probably don't have answers either.

Whether or not we do compulsion and direct action are not necessarily going to be productive - they tend to produce opposing actions.

Is the best we can hope to contribute simply to be influencers? Delivering what message? (what does PUL mean in practice?) And if so how?

though we americans may not like to admit it, we have precisely the government and president we deserve.

Gee whiz, Seeker. I didn't know that my karma was THAT bad.

But - thinking about it, you are absolutely right. The best politicians that money can buy seem rarely to be focussed on the problems of the hoi polloi[/] - A lot of recent political discussion seems to echo Plato's problem of supervision,  placing "Watchers" in charge. Unfortunately those who watch the Watchers seems to be the guys that the Watchers watch.[i]

Reminds me a bit of the snake that eats its tail, except that it often feels more like my backside that's getting gnawed.

Vajra,

I think you misunderstand the nature of politicians.  They'll warm up to any group that will throw support their way.

I would think that you guys across the pond have more immediate problems to worry about... such as the integration of Muslim societies into the larger European culture.  America and Canada doesn't ghettoize its Muslim communities as several European countries have theirs.

:-? For sure we don't have a better situation re. our politicians Mac, and immigration and integration have not been well handled in Europe....

This is one time I don't want to take a "we" attitude. It doesn't help much if I vote one way, and in the end Florida (sort of) says who is in and who is out.



the_seeker wrote on Aug 14^th, 2007 at 8:24pm:

though we americans may not like to admit it, we have precisely the government and president we deserve.

I don't know if it helps, but I've been actively writing politicos of all sorts to suggest that we could use a simple plan for living, and that their best bet for election is to create one. Everybody seems to be willing to criticize, but nobody has a plan to remedy matters. My suggestion is the same for politicians as it is for confused patients. State clear, simply defined goals, that are attainable through a series of simple intermediate steps.

We do have Sara Brady, Diane Feinstein and a few others, like Hillary Clinton, who seem interested in altering our government to a socialist basis. But that's going to create chaos if they try. Socialism works well only in a very few cases, and then only if free exchange incentives are maintained.

My vote would be for the guy who proposes a realistic way to get steady de-escalation from war status, and also has ideas about salvaging the Social Security fund, providing basic medical and shelter care for seniors and the disabled, and who will stop over-reaction and persecution of people who cross the borders without formal documentation in order to obtain employment. And if that's all the new Pres were to do, that would be just fine. In the Tao Teh Ching, Lao Tse told us, the government that does the least that interferes with the people is the best.

As for the "Florida Factor", nearly universal adoption of easily hacked (by actual test) electronic voting machines may have made the last election to be the last semi-democratic election in this country. Future elections using the electronic machines will surely be compromised, so that we will be fortunate to get any kind of valid representation.

This is a heck of a mess to leave my grandchildren.
d

Well done Dave  - on the nail. The idea was to trigger some constructive debate on how worrying lobby groups and influencers like  CUFI might be neutralised. It's developed to take in the broader question of how politics in general might be improved - how it might better serve people.

I'm quite surprised to hear you mention the word 'Socialist'  as part of a possible goal or solution -  given that it's I guess bit of a dodgy word in many quarters in the US. In some it's anathema even at the most minimalist levels.

With some justification - we've had lots of experience since WW2 with what's been called the 'welfare state' in Europe. It works to a degree, in that many get helped but I guess the issue that's become clear is that when party politics/buying votes with public money, low public productivity, political correctness/ideology, inability to manage schemes pragmatically/efficiently and straightforward corruption get in the mix it's frightening just how little of the money collected in (high) taxes makes it's way into the hands of those that need it, and how much is consumed by what becomes a voracious, selfish and uncaring bureaucracy.

If on the other hand you run the system in the US style the wealth and the power seems more and more to get concentrated into the hands of a few selfish and often dangerous vested interests which  become huge influencers of public policy. While many of those arguing against socialism are themselves getting fleeced, and the disadvantaged are left almost on the breadline.

The above might suggest that the Buddhist view on this stuff which seems to be broadly that while the right systems can help, the society that you in the end get  reflects the wisdom and compassion of both the rulers and the ruled. And that improvement comes about only through the raising of the collective consciousness so that individuals are motivated to change their behaviours for the good. That direct action is rarely successful.

Hence the emphasis on teaching and spreading of the Dharma.

All of which if true is a little sobering. It's for example good reason to hope that 2012 or thereabouts will bring the hoped for raising of consciousness worldwide, although it will probably take time for those affected to evolve solutions and deliver widespread change.

It kind of puts it up to those of us that might feel they have a wiser and more compassionate view to communicate too - is there more we should be doing, or do we sit back, continue as at present and rely on the divine to make it all to happen???

Of course we can rely on God (or Buddha or Krishna or ...) to make it all happen. That's the underlying theory behind Hinayana, and probably most Christianity, at least as practiced.

The old Yugoslavian Worker's Council format was about as good as a socialist system can get. The central planners set out expectations and goals, but the industries competed, and enjoyed direct profit sharing amongst the workers.

Communism was a wonderful idea, but hopelessly idealistic. I think that a few sports teams and maybe an occasional family might be able to share without corruption, but in general the communist system only worked at the level of the citizen and the bottom line dedicated block worker. For the rest it was an excuse to do less and get more. Sounds a bit like home, huh?

I feel that central planning would be good for basic health care clinics, senior and disabled housing, education and the various quasi-monopolies like the garbage collectors, phone services, electric power companies, and community services. I see no reason to replace the present entrepeneurial system, but some of these areas are poorly served  by the profit motive, as the greatest need is usually by those who can pay the least. Unfortunately, I don't feel that our leaders are able to lead into this area competently.

My solution for better government is for the candidates to lay out a strategy, describe the desired end conditions to be obtained, and to specify a series of simple, easily attainable steps by which to reach the goal. What I actually see is that advertising and public opinion companies are prodding these people, telling them what to say and do, and the business of state is losing ground to the cult of the ego. There are no goals except popularity, no objectives except profit and power, and no obligation to either morality, or even their oath of office.

This looks to me like the end of the world of the Gods and an impending fall into the Hell realms for this nation. By contrast, my interpretation of the international scene looks as if the European commonwealth is solidly in the Human world, plugging away at practical issues, and very much involved with the needs and values of the common person.  I'd place China in the transitional phase between Titans and Pretas, and unfortunately, headed toward Preta Loka.
 
One of my degrees is in sociology, so I guess I'm entitled to a half-baked opinion. :-)

d

;) You're quite Buddhist in views Dave!!

I really hope we're not headed where you suggest. Europe has its warts too, although there is a streak of genuine good intention in there somewhere. But time will tell.

Perhaps as you say the game actually is that we just sit back and do whatever comes comes naturally - that as is widely taught everything is under control and unrolling to the divine plan....

Hey there,

@Mactek

Problems cannot be solved by saying "it is none of your business", I always thought there was something called freedom of speech, so it does mean that someone is allowed to present his/her opinion on a topic, even if there are some miles between the countries.
I have to strongly disagree with you in that point, that it is not our problem when it comes to the political situation in the US (Iraq, etc., don't you think, even if I am from Europe, that it is after all interesting for me what comes next, as it is not a personal issue of the US, it became international.... )
If it comes to a point when the US government claims the right to be a force above NATO and UN (I think you know how the political contracts, that are made between the states that are part of them, work) it is as well my problem as it is yours, but not because I like to mock on your government or the USA, only because Mr. B was "smart" enough to make it a worldwide issue. Or haven't you spent a thought on the fact, that 9/11 could also happen in EVERY western country, as fundamentalists make no difference between the US and Europe, for them they are from the west an it is all that matters (think of what happened in London, and you might have heard of bombs on german trains, that, thank god, have not worked). If a government (I use the term government as I am convinced that not every one is as fanatic as Mr. Bush, seems you folks are also fed up and are sure, that he was no real help for the USA) tends to play world police (don't misunderstand me in this point, I am not referring to WW1 and 2, where your troops helped to beat down the german army ), just to have influence in every part of the earth, it is nothing that I can accept, as it is not only your country that is endangered by such kamikaze politics, it is a danger to what in Bushs terms would be the "free world". It is like playing russian roulette, let's see who is getting hit by the bullet.
And I am sure that I do not have to tell you that Iraq is your second Vietnam, and that if you start war against one of the islamic countries, that it can happen (maybe it has just begun) that you have all of them against you. Sad that some have not realized that it is not the people there, that are dangerous, but their governments. But now I want to ask you "Is it the matter of the US how the political situation in islamic countries works? Have the islamic countries interfered in your war for independece, or any american civil war? I guess not. So my point of view is, that the people down there are able to break their chains on their own, without western help. You see, Bush may have killed a dictator, but it was just pouring oil on a fire.
Seems like they did not want any help, or would they be upset if it was the other way around. When it came to Mohammad-caricatures, they were standing one for all and all for one.
There is one thing I still do not understand, you may help me on this one, why can some people in the USA consider, that only their pov on democracy is the right one? Is it necessary to start wars, that are sold as "crusades against the evil", to bring their idea of democracy across the world (is war for freedom a good sold on the global market, or a issue of globalization?)? Is it necessary to do it in the name of god, striking argument, when you remind yourself, that it is the same creed that islamic fundamentalists have.
So it is not my problem? I only say: o rly? I guess, if WE (the western world) do not handle it with care, it won't take long to have WW3, and it is not only the USA that is to blame, maybe also we across the pond, who have not tried hard enough to stop this.


The integration issue is really a striking point to worry about, but not because our governments tend to refuse integration (it sounds like if it was racism after all...) , it is the "hottest" political issue, and parties work their butts off to find a solution.
Integration has also two sides, it doesn't help if we just offer people to be integrated (to speak from a german pov, there are things like the opportunity to learn the language, what I consider to be the first part, when the communication works, the acceptance also grows, and it is so much easier to get along with each other, I think if I would go to the states not being able to talk english, I would also be refused). But it is a problem when people want to start a new life in a country and stick only to their origin and culture (they shall not fully convert to our cultural understandings, or convert to our religion..etc.) and only stick to their relatives and people with the same origin, who also left their country behind to start a new life, where shall we start integration? It is, after all, a two sided thing, if I accept and respect people that come to my country and want to start a new life, it is the least thing to take the given integration opportunities (I would do the same thing if I was interested in moving to another country). I know a lot of people (at my age), whose parents came to germany to widen the possibilities for their children, most of them are muslims, and are well integrated, and it works, they have done their part by taking the possibilities that were offered, and have gone places.

If it still does not work this way, there is a way to find solutions then. I am not worried about immigration, and do not see people with a different origin as dangerous (I keep saying this over and over again...I am not a racist as well as the majority of the germans, who are also not racists, get it right, Hitler has not been reanimated!), I also like multiculturalism, and if the two sides come closer, one can learn from another. Maybe a strange thought, but I guess that in the future there will be multicultural societies around the globe.
There is of course also an organization called Central Council of Muslims (in Germany), as sort of a voice for their problems, but I also have to add, that this organization regrets that some of the muslim communities refuse their help and refuse to be integrated. One last thing about this one, the pilots of 9/11 went to university in germany......and there comes the danger, if there are communities that refuse integration, it is a perfect place for hate preachers and raising suicide bombers/pilots

@ dave

Seems like we have similar povs on politics, as what you said, is part of the political charta of the party I voted for (social democrats)

Think global, act local!

Today I stay with a yours sincerely,

pulsar

Wow, Great post Pulsar!

I particularily like what you said about immigrants:

Quote:

But it is a problem when people want to start a new life in a country and stick only to their origin and culture (they shall not fully convert to our cultural understandings, or convert to our religion..etc.)

So, Pulsar, if I was to immigrate to the Motherland (my ancestry is German), I would have to convert to the German religion?  That sounds reasonable enoug......ack, choke, cough, ack......WHAT?!?

(sorry, I couldn't resist... just too much fun)

Hi all My dad had not got anytime for politicians,he always said that "It does not matter who gets voted in,they all take you down the road and rob you.

Love and God bless Love juditha

Hey there,

@Mactek

Mac, you got it wrong.....read the quote again...lol, I said do not have to (fully, maybe that was what brought confusion) convert (it was at least what I wanted to bring across, maybe just using the wrong words, maybe it is unbelievable, I learned english for about nine years, and there are words I do not know, or how to express sth. I think it is not something to laugh about, or is it :)) , to whatever our religion is, and they have not to be familiar with everything what we think of freedom, as it happens, there are mostly different views e.g. on how to handle sexuality (it is only an example, if it is no problem for you, and is not the way to to have it (how did you come to interpret it like this  :o), but to quote what I heard on phoenix, from an extract of an saudi-arabian "talkshow", saying that women in the western world would dress themselves like whores, it was more related to such a pov )  ...etc.
It is more important that they agree on our basic human rights, according to our constitution.
Have to tell about a documentary on islamic communities I just saw two days ago, and when I heard what the Imam told there, that muslims even if they live in western countries, have to stay away from everybody that has another religion, that blew me away. It is a good example of what is apart from being something according to our basic rights (freedom of religion). The other thing he was talking about was, that muslims, according to this statement, have not to accept the authorities, as they are no muslims. That is, of course, a "no go".
German religion, sounds stupid as well, you know that most germans are either protestants (lutheran) or catholic (I get a slight feeling of someone reading rightwing tendencies out of my post.....)
So maybe that would erase this little misunderstanding, as the constitution holds freedom of religion, and as it is no big deal to me what religion a person practises, as the key ideas are not that far away from being the same (prayers, a divine principle, salvation).
Just wanted to know where I said anything about a german religion, nothing like this exists (I think that the pagan religions are nothing the majority relies on, isn't it like that? The german religion....omg, I do not see our traditions or politics as something, that would be associated with a religion.

Or is it just too much to say "if you want to live here, accept our laws, try to learn the language (for me it is important, imagine, I would go to China, how would this work, how could I integrate myself into their society, when noone understands, what I am talking about, and yes I really consider, if I finished my bachlors degree in engineering, to move to another country to work there, probably an asian country, but in spite of this, it is way easier to get along with people in your "new environment", if you can talk to them) The language is in fact the biggest barrier, it is not as easy to learn as english, but it is also what causes isolation, it is not wanted by our government that they spent a life in a ghetto or sth., maybe there are the language courses I talked about, could be that they are too difficult, so that it maybe seems like a rejection itself... .
I do not believe, that integration is possible, if the ones, that want to be integrated, are not willing to, i does not work either, if people from here reject immigrants, but it is really like they are scared, that the immigrants come here to subvert our culture/society, only because they have different roots. That is the other side of the coin. It was not my intention to blame it on the immigrants, just wanted to say that they have also do a certain amount of steps that are required to be integrated, the biggest part is to do by our government, there has also be a change in mind by people of what I talked about, that refuse immigrants, because they are different.
I think you do know by now what I really think on this one, so if not, just tell me (maybe you would like to start a pm-session , I would be on!)
Acceptance and respect are also two sided, if I want respect and acceptance, I also have to spread the two of them. I accept the laws I am bound to.
So make what you want out of this, but it would not change the fact, that I totally believe in human rights, equality (so the origins do not matter), freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of thoughts (lol, if anyone could recognize what I am thinking), equality of men and women, I think that is enough, you know what I mean.

Maybe you could answer the questions I postet before, would be thankful if you do so.

But should I really care, as it seems it is just fun to you (I think it is not helpful if we are playing a little polemic game here)...maybe we could make a serious approach on this one, depends on you (maybe you prefer a polemic attitude, seriously, you took a quote out of the context, which clearly says what immigrants are NOT forced to, and pretend that I have written they should..)

@juditha

Yes, sometimes it seems like politics is like your dad thought of it.
You chose, which liars you want to believe. It would be better that they would not talk out of the blue and make the voters believe, that they are able to make tremendous changes, if they were honest, they would create a programme that contains little changes, that are realizable.


Sincerely yours,

pulsar

Vajra,

I'm assuming that because you've been on this board for a while that you are familiar with TMI (of course) and probably Frank DeMarco? Here's a link to his website that will give you another perspective on this:

The Challenge of Our Times

http://frankdemarco.wordpress.com/2007/08/27/tgu-session-02-09-02-in-the-black-box-2/

Rob

Hi Rob. Am familiar with TMI, but not with Frank De Marco. Ta for the link. His site is a great resource that's going to keep me occupied for quite a while. Interesting too in that Frank lists references to lots of writers outside of the usually fairly self contained TMI orbit.

Interestingly the page that came up using your link deals with some questions about the validity of retrieval activity as taught by TMI which is something I'd wondered about from the perspective that 'surely it works without our getting involved'. The answer is reassuring - it's not a big deal, but it's happening for good reason and while many misunderstand what it's about (due to seeing ourselves as individualised selves 'here') it's doing good.

Interesting too the way it talks of this reality extending right out to the highest focus levels we can reach from this consciousness - that accords very well with the Buddhist view that the afterlife/Bardo system is all a part of samsara or the mind made and ultimately delusional reality we are stuck in.

I can't find the part that relates to the 'the challenge of our times' - could you give another steer to where it is on the site please?

'I of my Own Knowledge.......' The name of Frank's site and such an important perspective for us all.

This thread relates to the other thread on this board 'What did Jesus Really Teach' through it inasmuch as the latter provides a link to a book on that topic which makes a really credible case that he was an Essene who taught a Gnostic message of love, experiential learning and personal responsibility.

Which is so fundamentally opposed to what is taught by the conservative and fundamentalist factions (including the major Roman Catholic and other institutional churches) that claim to own Christianity and to represent a nasty and vindictive God, and that have right from day one perpetrated such terrible acts in his name over the centuries.

Point being that these factions are entirely the result of people adopting blind beliefs they have been taught. If instead they were taught TMI/Bruce's techniques or the equivalent as transmitted through the Eastern meditative traditions, and enough grasped them it simply could not have happened that way.

Once one has personally awakened enough to experience the PUL feeling and felt it at work in one's life there' no other way of relating to others that's possible any more. But when blind belief gets in the mix the belief itself blocks access to this experience.

I guess it's not by accident that the institutional churches have always demonised and sought to exterminate those in esoteric traditions or on the path of self knowledge. It's actually a big development that it' possible for the likes of us to express our views in public - it's only a very few years since it would have caused us big problems. Hopefully it's a sign of irreversible change...

:) Thank you for all of that

ian

vajra,

What is more troubling is all the unwarranted New Age excitement about 2012 as a pivotal period for human consciousness.  I note with amusement attempts to anticipate the inevitable decisive discrediting of New Age apocalypticism.  People opine that the change is already happening, if imperceptibly, and that the coming change may be slight, even unnoticeable.  Such waffling is just another specious attempt to make an absurd New Age claim unfalsifiable in principle and hence epistemologically meaningless.  In fact, for example, the Golden Age of channeling occurred in the early 1900s, not the present.

Jesus taught that the kingdom of God "does not come with observable signs, nor will people be able to say, 'Look, here it is!' or `There it is!'.  For the kingdom of God is already in your midst (Luke 17:21)."  As for apocalyptic date setting, Jesus admits that even He has no idea when He may come again (Mark 13:32) and He sternly warns that "it is not for you to note the times or dates the Father has established by His own authority (Acts 1:7)."  But New Agers like to generalize from the lowest common denominator.  This ploy is of course the essence of bigotry.  

The low vibration of this site never ceases to amaze me, especially the latest hateful assault sparked by Matthew, against one of the greatest saints who ever lived, Mother Teresa.  I will respond to that nonsense as well and use it as a platform to discuss New Age misconceptions about the nature of higher consciousness.  

Don

:-/ Surely what's been said about Mother T has been a genuine attempt to explore how it could be that she on the one hand worked so hard for the poor and on the other struggled with a sense of disconnection from God? It's surely only an assault if the view is taken that she somehow was perfect, a cipher - beyond human and consequently not open to debate?

Likewise on 2012. Most of us can't help but sense that there's some sort of crisis building human affairs - caused by population, technological, nationalistic, religious, ecological, energy and other pressures. But while there's a few quite definite that changes in consciousness are coming/in progress  it surely is the case that most actually question the nature of what it may mean and how it may play out.

There's a very long history of those expecting apocalypse any time now being let down....

Vajra,

I had done a search on Frank's site and thought I had found the link. I guided mistake, I think.

A repeated search yielded better results. I found where I originally read The Challenge of Our Times on the website of Matthew Joyce (another TMI alum):

http://blaze.higherselfguides.com/?p=58

A short Bio of Frank is here:

http://www.themetaarts.com/pages/frankdemarco.html

Rob

:) Thank you very much Rob, will take a look later when I get that far. It's so easy to burn up half the day at this.