Hi

I read somewhere , on a differnt site, that Robert Monroe said he thought that people didn't literally leave their bodies during astral projection but just "tuned into"different levels of reality. I would add to that, that presumably the spirit doesn't finally seperate from the body till death.

Did he say something like this, or is this mistaken? Or are there some kinds of experience where the spirit literally leaves the body (perhaps, for example, where the person has the impression they are objectively travelling in this world and, for example, see their body below them etc) and others (perhaps involving other worlds or, as Bruce would say "focus" levels) where it does not?

Hi Orlando,
Monroe was a radio producer/engineer.  He used the analogy of turning the dial on a radio to describe changing your consciousness to different focus levels.  So what you read is correct.

I'm not sure about Bruce's zones.  I know he talks about focused attention - your attention is on consciousness area "A" and you want to shift it to consciousness area "B" so you have to move your attention from A to B and focus it.  It's similar to Monroe's analogy.  Bruce though adopted the idea that an experience is stored or retained in the area of your consciousness where it occurred.  If you want to recall or revisit a particular area of experience you have to focus your attention back on that area of your consciousness.  

I'm sure others will add their thoughts. - Rob

Rob Calkins wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 1:18pm:

Hi Orlando, Monroe was a radio producer/engineer.  He used the analogy of turning the dial on a radio to describe changing your consciousness to different focus levels.  So what you read is correct. I'm not sure about Bruce's zones.

Sorry, meant focus levels, don' t know where the word " zones " came from . (now edited)

orlando123 wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 12:55pm:

Hi I read somewhere , on a differnt site, that Robert Monroe said he thought that people didn't literally leave their bodies during astral projection but just "tuned into"different levels of reality. I would add to that, that presumably the spirit doesn't finally seperate from the body till death. Did he say something like this, or is this mistaken? Or are there some kinds of experience where the spirit literally leaves the body (perhaps, for example, where the person has the impression they are objectively travelling in this world and, for example, see their body below them etc) and others (perhaps involving other worlds or, as Bruce would say "focus" levels) where it does not?

I think about this subject alot so I'll try to input.  :) I don't recall Monroe saying that specifically in any of his books but I've often missed points with the first read through, we tend to see what we want to see, the first time.

I do recall Monroe was obe and having a bit of a tug with trying to place his astral/energy body into someone else's physical body and it just wouldn't coincide and unfortunately  :-X as he decribes it the rightful occupant gave him hell.
after which he navigated over to his own house and entered his own body and woke up perplexed at his mistake. which would indicate there is an energy body, attached by a cord of light which makes sure the physical is animated while the astral (appears?) to be in another location. astral to mean emotional to mean a form one has, sensed as a form of energy, a cohesive energy/thought form.

then I've thought, and its just thoughts, that perhaps our universe is not "out there."
maybe we are looking through eyes which project, on mind film the same, our entire movie, from within, not from without.
then when doing retrievals I've noticed the retrievees appear, to themselves and also to my senses as solid bodies just like us in C1, yet I know I am not in my bed, interacting, I am in a location of the mind of the retrievee, again, to all appearances.
if time/space is simply a slowed down frozen vibration of energy, then we can also say both worlds interpenetrate one another, one visible, one invisible, but in the same "space." but neither can we assume one is higher than the other, as in levels, because levels belongs to the earth physical vibrations.

easier to see dimension sliding when trying to image these areas within and the different rate of energy vibration which makes it possible to see these dimensions and even interact with them. especially so if we are projections, probes of our higher self, then it is higher self directing the show on the canvas of physicality which our C1 interprets as reality.
for instance, in the spirit world of those who transition, we are the ones who are "dead" to them, so go figure!
so then if you consider there is no solidity, all is energy, it no longer seems to matter about time/space and that structure. I see myself moving through a sea of energy, as an entity of form such as has a resemblance to my emotional state, and spiritual state as well, but basically an energy body with faster moving particles.

well thats my attempt at science! hope that helps. love, alysia

In my experience I have always "retrieved" in a spritual body form as would be excepted to the person being retrieved. Only one time was I not in a "body" form but was a plane.
Joe

hawkeye wrote on Aug 13^th, 2007 at 6:03pm:

In my experience I have always "retrieved" in a spritual body form as would be excepted to the person being retrieved. Only one time was I not in a "body" form but was a plane. Joe

I agree Hawkeye, I have taken forms to suit the occassion. also I talked with my deceased grandmother regarding image and form of the receiving party.

my grandmother was assisting for several years as my mothers transitional angel, causing her to reflect on her life, etc. I asked nanny why she was using her old lady image; she said it was because that was the way mother saw her in her mind, not because she particularly wanted to be that older image. we tend to get younger in our appearance, 30 seems to be the general age we most often portray.

i think part of our soul is still in heaven while we're alive on earth, just kind of sleeping...  i do think our soul can leave our body, because people describe scenes they couldn't know from inside their body.  

another theory is that maybe our soul is everywhere, all the time, but we just have our focus on our body while we're in it, or on a certain location if we have an OOBE.  as with many concepts, this might be one of those things like eternity that our human brain can't comprehend.

Seeker said: i think part of our soul is still in heaven while we're alive on earth, just kind of sleeping.
__

this would be like the I/there.
I agree, but not about the sleeping part, or I would change the one who mostly sleeps is the C1. this because I met my future self and she was wide awake. she did a number on me, rather I did a number on myself. :)

I can't speak for what Monroe may have said, but I agree that we don't literally leave our bodies, and I say this because I don't believe we are actually "in" our bodies to begin with.  Our physical reality existence is due to the fact that we are so acutely focused on this area of consciousness that we perceive physical reality as physical, and perceive our physical body focus as a physical place.  By tuning in to other areas of consciousness we phase toward that reality.  I believe that the more focused that tuning in is, the more OBE-like the experience becomes, as we phase away from one area and toward another, putting more focus on the other area.  The stronger the focus, the more it feels like you are actually physically away from your body.  You feel "out of body".  I believe that the sensation of being away from the body is due to that concentrated, acute focus of attention in an area of consciousness that is something other than the physical body and physical world.  

This is not an easy one to get into any kind of intelligible framework, maybe because we are not equipped with the kind of awareness and knowing to properly handle it. We're very much set up to think in the terms of the logic and concepts that apply in this reality.

Yet it's widely taught that this relative reality is not for real - that we 'imagine' it into existence. As in the case of all other states of awareness except the primordial, the absolute, the only, the great 'I am'. As though mind somehow warps this primordial fabric (which is perhaps itself mind) to create  whatever sort of reality it decides to manifest.

This implies some sort of simultaneous creation and placing of our 'selves' in that creation. That the  the mind that creates a local reality (dream?) and places itself in and as a part of that creation.

But this separate mind having created a local reality then seeks by selective perception (by 'falling asleep'?) to maintain this reality - by exclusion (or at least inability to perceive - we for example  routinely lose awareness of for example this reality when we dream) of other realities.

This mind is not necessarily the mind of you or I. More likely the collective mind of all the beings in this cosmos. Which by the time we experience it seems to have further split itself down to the level of individual humans, each trying to repeat the act of separation by building another series of ego bubbles or cocoons at this next level down. (is it possible that our minds contain further minds - minds that think they too exist as separate beings?)

If I have right it's also taught that all of these realities all exist simultaneously in the absolute, and are all nested together.

If I have it right again all of these realities are simultaneously accessible to us. The only reason we have problems doing so is that having imagined up this time space reality and collectively spent lifetimes maintaining the illusion and  building egos which depend on its existence for validation we struggle to overcome our conditioned need to do so. (and our fear that any negation of this reality will lead to our extinction)

So for open access to the whole lot we only (ha!!) need to drop the ego and open so that we start to truly perceive. (become realised) And having done so (realised ourselves as Buddha) it requires only intention to access any reality at will. Even multiple realities simultaneously as the constraints of time and distance are meaningless outside of this local reality.

Back here at the ranch the illusion of time (I guess) means that as we progressively shed the conditioning that causes us to see only that which we think we should perceive we experience a progressively widening awareness - we become able to perceive ever more realities.

But until total realisation it seems we continue to experience these realities as 'humans' visiting from what we consider to be THE reality....

I have to agree with Vicky. The survival instinct keep us within the body at most times but as we phase throughout the day we are continually in and out. While I was attending Gateway at TMI, our trainer Penny (Bob's step daughter) even made point of letting us know that many of us were out of our bodies a lot of the time after our sessions, and in fact needed to learn to be in(IBE) them instead of out of them.(OBE)
Joe

Hawkeye could you clarify what she meant please (or was she just making a joke?)

What I got, not to presume what she might say here, was that we were OB with out knowing that we were.

Mm my post seems to have resulted in some interesting but fairly mind-boggling posts. I feel a bit at a loss to know what to say , especially as many of them relate to experiences I've not had. Anyway, thanks for offerring your perspectives on this complex issue.

and that our awareness was more attuned to "seeing" with our body eyes. She had also noted that some of us were using our spiritual eye located at the center of our foreheads. (not in those words) That we were using our eyes in our body as this is where "vision"  was excepable(sp) to us at this point in our personal reality. ( did that make sense?) Again this is what I received from the communication and not her words.
Joe

hawkeye wrote on Aug 14^th, 2007 at 12:55pm:

What I got, not to presume what she might say here, was that we were OB with out knowing that we were.

What, like you mean she was saying you were walking around like some sort of zombies or automata while your actual consciousness was elsewhere? Sounds a bit unlikely. Maybe she just meant she were still not 100% focussed back in this physical reality after your experiences?

:-[ sorry Orlando....

LOL that's OK. I do pretty much get your drift in your other post, and the ideas are not necessarily new to me, although the bit about other mini-minds inside us not being aware of the whole us that we are aware of was a good one that I'd not really pondered before  ;)  I am glad people thought about the topic seriously and it's obviously not one with easy answers as it goes to the heart of issues of what mind or spirit is and how they interact with the body and what it means when some traditions claim "all is One" and so on. I feel a bit more lost with some of Laffingrain's points , for example, as I've just not had her kind of experiences although she talks about them like you might talk about going to the shops for a loaf of bread or something (ie they are very real and normal to her). Don;t mean any disrespect though, and they're still interesting  :)

No, no 123, not the night of the living dead sort of thing. Just that sometimes when we are out of body, we are not consciously awair of it. Some of the times it was not after a taped exercise but even during a break. Sort of like phasing. As for the autamata you speak of, when you go uot of body, your body still breaths, automatically, your heart beats, etc.
Joe

good thread u started Orlando, thanks.  :) sometimes I think it's not so much what we say or that we solve any problems, but its just the chance to self express thats most important, that and just being together and being able to approach the most difficult questions; I looked for other boards like this one, but have never found them. they must be there though.
writing out thoughts has become a way of life for me, since I finished my book. I discovered writing can open up awareness too.
I purposefully express Orlando this way, that I try to make it practical, things mystical, so to make the two worlds we talk of, to make them one in understanding. I often fail, but now and then somebody will say, oh! I see! lol. I live for such a kudo and its just a happy feeling, not really an ego thing.

I think Vajra and Hawkeye brought up the C1 sleepiness as compared to how clear and lucid some of our explorations can be. I'd just add that TMI called it "limited" C1, C1 stands for Consciousness level One.

focus on the word limited. sometimes limited can mean something negative. but not really, to put it another way, we funneled our mind/Mind into C1, it is quite necessary to compress our awareness in order to experience physicality, we simply narrowed our focus to have a certain type of experience unattainable any other way.

we each have a piece of the puzzle :) so much meat on this thread, be back later. cool.

Vajra said: If I have right it's also taught that all of these realities all exist simultaneously in the absolute, and are all nested together.
____

you explained it the way I would, I think you are good with words. I'd just add what I picked up from another source, from the book The Path, by Cozzolini. I had never understood focus levels of TMI, so when I read another description of focus levels it resonated better. Cozzolini describes these levels as a spider web anology. In the center of the web is the I Am. the circle of the web spreads out and around the center where the C1 sits. each layer connects to the next and yet the web is one thing. along the web, if something lands on the web it quivers, letting the C1 feel that quiver that something is there. Cozzolini didn't say all that, I was adding on. but he said each layer is another ring of consciousness, but that it was easier not to think of levels,but as rings or layers would be easier to conceive, as then we wouldn't be efforting to get to the next "level."

we have been taught down thru the ages enlightenment is only for the privileged few, the elite, so levels are a part of that misunderstanding. like Dave here says, it could happen that you would be enlightened already, and not even know that you were, because of our conditioning in society that it is unattainable for the common person.

Orlando, it has become real experiences. It is not that I say I believe it is real, but that it bothers me sometimes that my experiences are real because now I have become a little ostrasized from others and we all want to fit in with the crowd and it can't be that way anymore. it's not that I feel myself in love 24/7, its more like being at peace 24/7 and thats theres no problems I need to be solving as nothing is going wrong if you look at the whole picture of humanity with its struggles never ending. soon enough you know why, because we invent our own problems but we each have separate reasons tocome here, which is not our permanent home. my guides told me I already accomplished my intentions for coming here, so the rest is gravy and if I seem too nonchalant about what is real to me, I am 60 years old, I've probably had a lot more time than some of you, speaking of this lifetime, to accomplish what my intentions were.
its sort of like the book, what color is your parachute? the intentions we must figure out on our own. my guides told me its up to me now if I want to have another go at it after I transition and I was thinking I would like to be someone's guide as a spirit, perhaps 5 or 6 people's guide, or I should say helper, not guide, as helping sounds better. I'm also thinking of another solar system to explore. but I'm probably getting ahead of your thougths. sorry! Thanks Orlando for your talks with us, it does help that you have an open mind.

its a journey. look towards what peace means and it's as good as in the bag.

Thanks Laffingrain. I feel genuinely happy for you that you have reached a nice balance and feeling of peace in life and that everything seems to make sense to you (although I am sorry your out-of-the-ordinary experiences sometimes create a barrier with others. I can sympathise in some repects with how having experienes that differ from the norm can sometimes do that).  I am also glad I feel glad,    ::) Buddhists say you should work on feeling good about others’happiness as well as bad about others misfortune,and I think sometimes the first is harder. Well you seem a nice well-meaning  person and nice well-meaning people deserve to be happy. Well, we all do really.

About you describing what seem extraordinary experiences in a down-to-earth way, that's fine - I mean IMO if something's real it's real, just because we might not have scientific explanations for it yet doesn;t change that. And experience usually, I would have thought, precedes an  explanation for things.

It’s not that I’ve had no out-of-the-ordinary experiences – I have, if you read what I wrote about halfway down the first page of my Some problems with the idea of an afterlife thread. Although they weren;t positive ones. Just lately I have experimented again sometimes with trying to tune in to hear comments inside my head, which is, I suppose possibly what you would call clairaudience (or just me being mildly mentally unbalanced, not quite sure which   :-?) just for short times, and I have had some seemingly supportive messages, from someone I think seems feminine, rather than the confused and harmful messages I got from the masculine spirit, if that’s what it was and not my subconscious playing tricks. But sometimes in the past I thought the a different spirit was there only for it to seem to be the same person eventually, perhaps trying to disguise himself as someone else at first  –  the confused and aggressive communications came back. So I don’t know if this is a wise thing to experiment with or not.

One thing that I find odd, for example, is that there should always be a person “one the other end of the line”, and in the past always the same one, while you would think they would come and go at different times. That’s one thing that makes me feel they might not be real external entities. That’s makes me wonder – do people who say they have spirit guides find them there all the time at their beck and call, or do they just turn up when they feel like it? If, as you say, you became a spirit guide in a future existence, it sounds like it could be an exhausting occupation if you have to be there every time the person tunes in to communicate.

Perhaps one day I will explore more about Robert Monroe’s and Bruce Moens’ techniques and so on and find more of my own evidence for an afterlife that way instead. I have just ordered RM’s first book to see what I make of that.

All the best.

thanks for your response Orlando. I noticed you are studying Buddism? a good study my opinion. I noticed you are in touch with your feelings and express them well. believe it or not there are many of us not in touch with feelings and even if they are, loath to express them. so I see you in a good light, on a path and making progress.

I especially like the way you said you were glad that you are glad.. ;D

hope you enjoy Monroe's books, then the next step might be Bruce's books, as they seem to go together well. then when Vicky's book gets here, lol, we can make suggestions to one another anyhoo.

I don't know what your aggressive male voice is a spirit or just a part of your energy component.
there appears to be some conflict you will solve. perhaps being on this board will help to figure it out. I hope so. although I know the real work is not coming from a bunch of people on a board. the answer is within you. anytime you get messages if there is unrest in it, and not a peaceful feeling, not an aha moment with the attendant wonder, I would just gently tap aside any messages not like love. not offering to you something beneficial to think on.
pretty soon anything not good for you to know, it just stops coming in, as it has no home.  that goes whether it is an interfering entity or just some paranoia or fear thought that does not need to be there.

it seems like to me, that thoughts are things, that they are alive, that they want to survive so they feed off the host.
can be bugging, so when there's that conflict, recognizing the conflict is there is first step. 2nd step is choosing to interact with the conflict to resolve it. heres what I have done sometimes. to show interaction
My chooser: (to thought I don't want) you again? thanks for your input, I am not needing your services, return to wherever you came from, I want to think a love thought, or a joy thought or something other than what you offer.
Unwelcome party: You are seriously missing some of your marbles...
My Chooser: I disagree. I am a child of the universe, I deserve to be here and have my unique journey without interference from the likes of you who says I have lost my marbles...I choose what I wish to think upon. buzz off.
Unwelcome party: I have come in my aggressive manner to help you realize you are a chump.
My Chooser: begging your pardon? Are you aware being a chump is a valid journey? Like I said, I choose the things I will think upon and what you are offering me is not love.

so you get the picture Orlando. if you get yourself a guide, the message will always uplift you, never tear you down. There are times in the beginning of development that voices in the head are accepted to be your own self and not recognized as nonphysical guides. This can be like noise that you can quiet down eventually, sometimes it may even be grid band noise. Affirmations I have found helpful to our minds, to keep out too much noise. Noise always has confusion attached to it. When the noise goes away there is a quiet place within you and you hear only the sound of quiet which means you have found your center point.
messages from guides, or call it intuition will be easily recognizable by a feeling of encouragement that you are doing well, which I for one think you are, or I don't think you would even have found us on this board if you weren't well on your way. we are not an easy bunch to understand Ijust realized!
love to you, alysia

LaffingRain wrote on Aug 15^th, 2007 at 12:01pm:

thanks for your response Orlando. I noticed you are studying Buddism? a good study my opinion.

Hi Alysia. Well not actively at the moment, but have done so before to some extent. I am not sure all of it makes sense to me or that I agree with it all, but there is much good stuff too. I once 'met' the dalai Lama, or at least saw him give a talk in a reasonably intimate setting, on an occasion when he opened a peace garden in London. And the moment he arrived, he seemed to exude warmth and kindness and make me feel uplifted. I don't think anyone (and certainly not someone I'd just met) has ever had quite such an effect on me, so he must be doing something right.


Quote:

I noticed you are in touch with your feelings and express them well. believe it or not there are many of us not in touch with feelings and even if they are, loath to express them. so I see you in a good light, on a path and making progress.

Thank you  :) Yes, I think that is something I have learned to be generally OK with. I guess there is a time and a place for lots of emotional openness ( and at times a certain reserve can have its uses) but here seems an Ok place for it I think. I also like honesty and straightforwardness, and it is something I appreciate in others. However I guess that needs ideally to go hand in hand with thoughtfulness and a kind outlook to others, or you could end up saying things that are hurtful. Going off on a tangent, tonight i was invited round for dinner with a friend and it turned out she had invited several other people too. My friend is a liberal but quite deepy-felt Roman catholic and while we were eating, [I'm just re-reading this and I have inserted the preceding comma - helpful so as not to get the wrong meaning here, I think   ;D]one of her other guests (a man of about 70) started an atheist tirade about how many terrible things religions, especially the Catholic church, had done over the years and how we must get rid of it. I am sure he knows perfectly well our friend is religious, so it seemed rather insensitive of him, even if he was just, from his point of view, explaining his opinions honestly.


Quote:

I especially like the way you said you were glad that you are glad.. ;D

LOL


Quote:

hope you enjoy Monroe's books, then the next step might be Bruce's books, as they seem to go together well. then when Vicky's book gets here, lol, we can make suggestions to one another anyhoo.

Thanks. I have heard that reading Monroe's books first is the best way round


Quote:

I don't know what your aggressive male voice is a spirit or just a part of your energy component.

Me neither. Oh well. I still reasonably seem pretty sane and together, so I don't think it will get any worse! I have not been bothered by him for ages anyway.


Quote:

there appears to be some conflict you will solve.

Mm well there are always some conflicts in my life in one way or another, but then I wouldn;t be the only one. hopefully we live and learn and get wiser about what matters and who we are and how to deal best with others and with the less agreeable aspects of the world etc. And thanks for the other advice on this topic, it sounds good. Your little dialogue is funny  :) Guess humour can be a good weapon against negativity too

PS I there a button for inserting bits of other people's text in quotes? I've not found it if there is. I just copied and pasted the "quote" and "/quote" things in here

if such a button exists, its not on my machine Orlando. but I do have a Quote button if I want to include the whole post to enclose. sometimes I use a different color ink if it's a long post.

I never met dalai Lama, sounds like treat, but I did meet a couple of speakers on the Course In Miracles where the feeling of being uplifted was similar to what u describe. the fellow who introduced it to me had a soft, sincere voice, not pushy at all, not too excited, just explained his personal journey with the Course.  He opened a peace garden? what a great concept of words.

u mentioned people being honest is one thing, people dumping anger on others is insensitive. but the problem is people don't realize how they hurt each other this way. so I guess it was her opportunity to let him know.
well I've always been crazy but its kept me from going insane! ha! ok, I'll leave you alone now. you take care and all we can do is the best we can.

Yes, he opened a garden with symbolic plants and sculptures etc in the grounds of the IMperial War Museum in London. Good as place for one as any!

orlando123 wrote on Aug 16^th, 2007 at 1:16pm:

Yes, he opened a garden with symbolic plants and sculptures etc in the grounds of the IMperial War Museum in London. Good as place for one as any!

how interesting. wouldn't it be nice if we could put war in a museum?

LaffingRain wrote on Aug 16^th, 2007 at 1:38pm:

how interesting. wouldn't it be nice if we could put war in a museum?

Like : "here is a museum about a strange old custom humans used to have that they called "war"."     Yes , that would be good ..

8-) Must say  think the vibe emitted by most Tibetan Rinpoches and the way it acts directly on your state of mind whn in their presence is one of the most powerful arguments there is that they have to be doing something right.....

That's interesting. I've not met any others so I can't generalise.. Have you met several leading Tibetan monks then? Have you encountered that feeling with anyone from other traditions, or is it something you just noticed with these Tibetans, like with my experience with the Dalai Lama?

I've been lucky enough to as a completely ordinary punter (member of the audience or whatever) attended weekend teachings by Ringu Tulku Rinpoche and Sogyal Rinpoche, and by coincidence ended up at dinner beside the Ven Panchen Otrul Rinpoche.

I'm a cynical old git, but even to me they all to varying degrees transmitted. As do some of the senior teachers in the Shambhala organisation I've met. Its not blindingly obvious, more like you find yourself sliding into a particular state of mind when they are around.

There tends to be a lightness of vibe, a direct connection, an easy humour and some sort of grounding or  centering effect. Mixed with a quickness of intellect, and a sense of power and total directness.

It's not universal  - I've met one or two senior teachers (never a Rinpoche) who were more ordinary, or at least if they were not i was on the wrong wavelength.....

I see , thanks. Well, as I said, I felt something quite special in the DL's presence, and he gave a good talk on topics of peace and compassion and emphasizing our similarities instead of differences etc.
Literally, as soon as he came along - not in great pomp and ceremony, but just bustling along the pavement  from somewhere he had been nearby, patting kids on the head and greeting people waiting to see him, with some retainer holding a kind of little parasol over him, his warm, smiling presence had an impact. And when he was near me I felt this stong sense of upliftment and happiness. I have a photo of him next to my computer because I think it has a calming effect on me.