Great article on this at www.nexusmagazine.com  Always thought it might be a miss-mash
of false and fabled information taken from all the older religions before christianity. Now
heres the proof. Christianity, just another huge money making empire like McDonalds.
Big Mac, Fries and the menu, instead of Jesus, Mary and the disciples. LOL!! Darth. May
both sides of the force be with you.  

Is there a confusion between Cristianity and colonialism of the organised churches. To have had the story of Jesus/Christ last such a long time, there must have been a presence. I have no doupt that the story itself has been altered to suit the writer and to make money or have power over people but the sprit of the higher power is.

Not sure what the article says, but it's been clear for a very long time that the bible has been doctored to suit the temporal ends of the not very spiritual part of the church and it' political masters for a very long time - since the Roman emperor Constantine at least.

But there's large chunks of great truth still in there too, stuff that as Hawkeye says took a great presence...

I agree with Vajra in that there are elements of truth in the New Testament which appear not to have been doctored or modified.  However, as others have pointed out, the circumstances of Jesus' birth and death are nearly identical to the births/deaths of other spiritual sages.  Moreover, certain elements in the stories of such spiritual sages appear to have an astrological undertone or theme.  It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that the bible is a synthesis of a story of a real man, co-mingled with at least one religion that preceded Christianity (as well as any deliberate modifications put in place by those in power to suit their agenda).

the bible is basically a work of fiction, but there's jesus's teachings are interesting and possibly great

There are things I agree with in the Bible, like the difference between the flesh and Spirit.

But then there is the talking snake, etc. I mean... maybe it could (or did) happen in the spirit world, but a talking snake on the physical plane? Lol.

Also, to me, even though I believe in God, the God in the Bible sounds pretty mean.

The Jesus-God in the bible has been fed by Trillions of positive thought-forms, making
him/she? a 'real' entity to those dwell in the christian religion....These thought-forms are
as real to us as our ourselves and deceased relatives...Therefore 'Jesus' is 'Real' as a
created 'God' to christians. He/She is like a living, thinking, entity...A super computer, divine,
so to speak..completely our creation...constantly fed with information, constantly growing
larger in accumulated wisdom, debate, with our input.... There is only the Creator/God/
Supreme/ of all...Everything else is just our personal interactions and questions. Darth. May
both sides of the force be with you...
   

true Darth, we have a way of making god in our own image don't we? amazing our creative capacity. I wonder if this is the bible's way of saying we have false idols?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/7d2a8dee.jpg

you said: Also, to me, even though I believe in God, the God in the Bible sounds pretty mean.
___

yea, remember the time he turned that woman into salt? I think it was me!

Every book is a work of fiction, Darth. Every historical record is a record written by humans, and we are notoriously fickle and false when it comes to recollection of events passed.

Every book is written, even if written in sections, by writers who cannot have a whole perspective.

So, what is different about the Bible? Why do we tear into this old bone over and over? Are we like dogs that need to chew on something familiar, something hard, something with substance?

There are so many ways to look into the Bible, Darth, and you know this. Perhaps you come back to this issue again and again because you feel like there is something you are missing.

You will find what you are looking for.

love, blink :)

wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 7:06pm:

Not sure what the article says, but it's been clear for a very long time that the bible has been doctored to suit the temporal ends of the not very spiritual part of the church and it' political masters for a very long time - since the Roman emperor Constantine at least.

Yes its amazing what a major role one individual has had on the Christian religion and alot of the 'supposed truths' that the priesthood insist on. The Council of Nicea in 325 AD represents the politicisation of Christianity.

I am very happy that you brought this article to us.
To me, it is a huge relief, to get finally rid of some Christian
doctrine. It has always been a great burden to my logical mind.

The most nonsensical part of it to me is the crucifixion: Jesus
died for your sins. How can anyone who lived thousands of years ago
die for your sins? What is the purpose of that? Did people stop
sinning because of that? Of course not. And what father wants his
son sacrificed to him, because of someones sins? The Bible tells
of people making sin offerings, going way back. Like, I am offering
this in compensation for my sins. Offering yourself is like the
ultimate offering. But it makes no sense when the offering is also
the son of the god, to which you are making the sin offering.

I have known for some time that it was part of several stories of
that time period that the usual avatar got crucified. But it is a
relief to have this article give substance to the idea that this is
a created fictional story, taken from many sources.

Meanwhile, I agree with Darth that the belief in this character for
hundreds of years could have created this entity in the Astral.
Because such entities can be created this way. The name Darth
reminds me of Darth Vader. It would not surprise me if Darth Vader
now exists in the Astral.

Or, some entity in the Astral could assume the identity and
appearance of Jesus, for some purpose. Or, an historical character
might have existed, who now fits the role of Jesus, and can appear
as him.

At any rate, Jesus now appears, as a materialized entity, in
stories of divine interventions and healings. He appears in the
stories from Near Death Experiences. If he did not exist then,
he appears to exist now.

He also is quoted by channellers
claiming to quote him, claiming a relationship with him. The
internet is full of that. Seeing that the name Jesus Christ is a
fictionally created name, made from the combining of two different
earlier entities, Hesus and Krishna, does put a new light on these
claims, which I have disbelieved anyway. That is, there is
confusion about whether such claims could be authentic, and now
that we see that the story was probably made up in the first place,
that puts such claims in a different light, as part of the overall
con job that is everywhere.

At any rate, the values that the Jesus story presents, are values
that were developing at that period, and these values are
important, and were brought here and became part of America.
Compassion, caring, love, the story of the Good Samaritan. The
world was ready for these values, and Christianity became their
carrier. Because of what happened then, we have teachings of love
today. For comparison, parts of Islam are now teaching war, where
Islam has been hijacked by barbarians.

Hi Boris-
I'm with you on this one. Darth Vader is doubtless right at home next to Snidely Whiplash.

I also feel that Voodoo Christianity idea is a bit heavy in the wishful thinking department. Now if I wanted to do this the old fashioned way, I'd get a black hen, and go to the omphor where I'd pray to Chango, Papa Legba, and maybe Erzulie, that mty sins might be forgiven, and laid at the feet of the chicken who could deal with them thereafter. Notice that this also clears up the idea of karmic residues, since I'm dumping it all on the chicken. And then I'd have to sacrifice the chicken and maybe bathe in its blood. And that would wash me clean as virgin's breast.

Of course this Voodoo salvation seems to have nothing at all to do with a change of intention, nor an elevation of morality, nor repentance for my habits of exploitation and degradation of others in search of more income and greater hedonic pleasures. And there's nothing done to alter my accumulation of unpleasant karmic consequences. But what the heck - nothing's perfect.

From a rational perspective, if there is no intention to change and evolve, there is no change - I might feel better, but that's a delusion. For example - The Catholic rite of confession is based on simple logic - take stock of the situation (examination of conscience), get rid of the attachment to prior misdeeds (repentance), express intent to live a better life and to do things in a better manner and to do whatever damage control we can (penance), and then go on with life (Ite - missa est). That produces real change for obvious psychological principles, as well as any spiritual value it might have. The Voodoo Christian seems to be missing the point.  However, someone noticed, as Jesus is quoted as saying, "Not all those who say, 'Lord, Lord' are going to get into the kingdom of heaven."

I, for one, prefer not to make a black chicken out of Jesus. He must have been a truly remarkable individual! I respect that.

dave

dave_a_mbs wrote on Jul 28^th, 2007 at 3:27pm:

Hi Boris- I'm with you on this one. Darth Vader is doubtless right at home next to Snidely Whiplash. I also feel that Voodoo Christianity idea is a bit heavy in the wishful thinking department. Now if I wanted to do this the old fashioned way, I'd get a black hen, and go to the omphor where I'd pray to Chango, Papa Legba, and maybe Erzulie, that mty sins might be forgiven, and laid at the feet of the chicken who could deal with them thereafter. Notice that this also clears up the idea of karmic residues, since I'm dumping it all on the chicken. And then I'd have to sacrifice the chicken and maybe bathe in its blood. And that would wash me clean as virgin's breast. Of course this Voodoo salvation seems to have nothing at all to do with a change of intention, nor an elevation of morality, nor repentance for my habits of exploitation and degradation of others in search of more income and greater hedonic pleasures. And there's nothing done to alter my accumulation of unpleasant karmic consequences. But what the heck - nothing's perfect. From a rational perspective, if there is no intention to change and evolve, there is no change - I might feel better, but that's a delusion. For example - The Catholic rite of confession is based on simple logic - take stock of the situation (examination of conscience), get rid of the attachment to prior misdeeds (repentance), express intent to live a better life and to do things in a better manner and to do whatever damage control we can (penance), and then go on with life (Ite - missa est). That produces real change for obvious psychological principles, as well as any spiritual value it might have. The Voodoo Christian seems to be missing the point.  However, someone noticed, as Jesus is quoted as saying, "Not all those who say, 'Lord, Lord' are going to get into the kingdom of heaven." I, for one, prefer not to make a black chicken out of Jesus. He must have been a truly remarkable individual! I respect that. dave

True Dave...But I'm not making a 'Black Chicken' out of the Jesus character...But. All the
supposed teachings, attributed to Jesus, were around already. ..Buddha for instance taught
the same things...and the mother of all religions 'Hinduism' clearly state this....At the
supposed time of his ministry, there were no doubt countless 'holy men' wandering the
countryside in the middle east, back from their journey's and studies in India(The silk road
was a famous trade route from china to the middle east)...preaching what they were taught
from their gurus...Tell me something jesus said that was so profound and not known among
the spiritual community then?? Nothing!!...Look at us on this board!? We all know about love,
compassion, helpfulness, service to others, tolerance, etc, etc, etc...Why are we not spiritual
giants or mentors?? ...When questioned at a recent press conference, the head of our local
accident and emergency department of a large hospital in my capital city said.."Drugs account
for about 10% of admissions, Alcohol account for about 70%. If alcohol did not exit, I would
have to fire at least half my department."...Jesus, in his first miracle turned water into wine.
...Couldn't they enjoy themselves without being drunk??? After all they were in the divine
company of the "Son of God". One wave of his hand and they would be exhilarated!!? Forget
the booze...Darth. May both sides of the force be with you...ps. Laffinrain. Women are
still held as second class citizens in the christian religion...Try becoming a priest or minister
in the catholic or protestant religions...and I'm not talking about TV evangelism. And Dave,
it seems there is fear in your post...Why not call jesus a %#@*&8*&^%..After all, he'll
forgive you?....Hmmmmmm. Maybe not!!!!!

So, Darth, if Dave essentially agrees with you to start off with, why is it so important to you that he "call Jesus an %$*&@&@" or whatever you said.

What are your motives here? Why is it so important to you?

Do you need another person to share your own thoughts about Jesus? Why?

You say you hear "fear" in his message. What is that all about?

Are you afraid for him, that he isn't "free" enough of Jesus? Why?

love, blink :)



[/quote]


True Dave...But I'm not making a 'Black Chicken' out of the Jesus character...But. All the
supposed teachings, attributed to Jesus, were around already. ..Buddha for instance taught
the same things...and the mother of all religions 'Hinduism' clearly state this....At the
supposed time of his ministry, there were no doubt countless 'holy men' wandering the
countryside in the middle east, back from their journey's and studies in India(The silk road
was a famous trade route from china to the middle east)...preaching what they were taught
from their gurus...Tell me something jesus said that was so profound and not known among
the spiritual community then?? Nothing!!...Look at us on this board!? We all know about love,
compassion, helpfulness, service to others, tolerance, etc, etc, etc...Why are we not spiritual
giants or mentors?? ...When questioned at a recent press conference, the head of our local
accident and emergency department of a large hospital in my capital city said.."Drugs account
for about 10% of admissions, Alcohol account for about 70%. If alcohol did not exit, I would
have to fire at least half my department."...Jesus, in his first miracle turned water into wine.
...Couldn't they enjoy themselves without being drunk??? After all they were in the divine
company of the "Son of God". One wave of his hand and they would be exhilarated!!? Forget
the booze...Darth. May both sides of the force be with you...ps. Laffinrain. Women are
still held as second class citizens in the christian religion...Try becoming a priest or minister
in the catholic or protestant religions...and I'm not talking about TV evangelism. And Dave,
it seems there is fear in your post...Why not call jesus a %#@*&8*&^%..After all, he'll
forgive you?....Hmmmmmm. Maybe not!!!!!
[/quote]

I wonder, Blink, if the question might be revolving around a different axis.

If we toss out the traditional and often very exploitive religions of the world, together with their perpetual holy wars and carnage, and then look at what we actually have,  we have a huge tradition of spiritual awareness. It's called Witchcraft, Sorcery and so on, but it exists, and the basic concept is universal unity. This has indeed been the topic of both the great and not-so-great teachers, and is still the essence of metaphysics. All we need do is to become aware of it. Then what we'd have left is the natural state of the mind in a social setting. That's a very noble ambition.

I'm trying to read between the lines from Darth's words. There seems to be discontent with the "Establishment" (I'm an old hippie, I can understand that part) and especially with the social customs of a world in which we exploit others through violence, ignorance and rejection.  (As an old sociology prof I also see advantages in socializing a limited number of resources under a federalism as one cure - but this is a modern political problem that I'm not going to resolve.)  So we agree in many ways - and I suspect that we are simply speaking from different perspectives.

Darth - you sense fear in my writings. That's an extremely astute and very acute perception - I am indeed fearful of making errors. I operate on the premise of "Don't screw the pooch unless you can sell the pups." However, as you note, God will forgive, after a healthy dose of karma. Works for me.

dave

Darth said: ps. Laffinrain. Women are  
still held as second class citizens in the christian religion...Try becoming a priest or minister
in the catholic or protestant religions...and I'm not talking about TV evangelism.
_____
I disagree that women are held as second class citizens. what I do agree on with this thought of yours is that one must learn as a woman, or as a man, to command respect from all, which is simply be not afraid to speak your truth quietly and exit fast if a mob is chasing you down. :)
I make a confession now that I am the proud holder of a certificate Alysia is a bonafied minister of the Church of Spiritual Humanism on the 24th of August in the year 2004. YAAAAYYYYY!!!  it even has a gold seal on it, what more could I ask for?
Hey, anyone can get this certificate for $15 off the internet. I was joking around with myself when I did it. Now I'm just flat out proud to announce I believe in you Darth, I believe in humanity to overcome all avenues of slaughter in the name of god.
______
DaveMBS is one of our more courageous members who thinks he is a tube worm, and I don't know, maybe his wife thinks he is a worm too, so lets not be picking on him, I'm sure his wife will straighten him out, you see women have that ability with their men.
Darth, love will set you free, after it crushes you in the threshing field, let love be your guidance, forget religion. Force is not the answer.
You are on the right track as far as I can see to question everything.

Congratulations, Reverend Alysia -
FYI my tube worm days were a long time ago - My wife definitely sets me straight periodically (isn't that why we keep you gals around?)

And I agree, Darth - Keep questioning - in fact, meditation on questions like death is highly recommended. That way you can do it all yourself - which is what we have to do anyhow.

d

Quote:

I disagree that women are held as second class citizens. what I do agree on with this thought of yours is that one must learn as a woman, or as a man, to command respect from all, which is simply be not afraid to speak your truth quietly and exit fast if a mob is chasing you down.

from laffingrain

Since here in Germany the birthrates are that low, that probably the population will be in maybe 40 years at about 60.000.000 (actually sth. around 82.000.000, I don't know what you think of post-WWII, but I think it is sad if the population rates fall that deep, think even as a german you are allowed to be sad about this, since we got rid of the little racist freak, so right wing nuts do not play a role anymore) the CDU (christian democrats) stated in their newest programme, that the only thing that could stop this "downfall" is going back to the conservative principle of families, what actually means: man makes career, woman stays at home with the kids (I thought it is the 21 st century, where is the problem when these roles are swapped????)
I think it is kind of unfair, think about unemployment rates, and you come to the conclusion, that it is hard to come back into business after being pregnant ( the few weeks you are allowed to take off are maybe enough to have a hard time finding a job, that can last a few years!!!, since companies decide to open branches abroad, where there have not to pay for health care or have not to pay for high security standarts , no, it does not mean for me to avoid having babies in favour of your career...). But that is only one fact, and it certainly does not mean that you are supposed to be out of business because of being pregnant, and it is not what (thank god!) happens to every woman.
But in a society, based on christian values (the first few articles of the constitution contain also human rights, as there are freedom of religion, speech, equality of man and woman, that rather have their roots in liberal humanism, remember writers/philosophers from the elightenment period, but humanism is also affected by christian values, to give you one example, Immanuel Kant who at least said that acting in a moral way is connected to believe, without faith in god there is no moral action possible.. etc.) how comes that, that women are making less money (i don't now if it is the same in the US) while doing the same work as men?? It's no joke or hyper-red propaganda, it's true.... ;)
And if you can believe the news, than  statistically the number of women getting mobbed (according to their gender....) rises on and on. What a freaking nice right-moral-having-and-pretending-to-serve-equality-and-pretending-living-according-to-a-christian-influenced-constitution-society, and yes, there you come to the point that actually the christian type of values are only part of understanding the history of how the constitution came about, they are not of any worth today, what is kind of sad, think about the ten commandments (for Kant they were like THE moral code!).

I know, this one was very political, but I think a few point fit together with the quote/ topic, it's something to think about. I hope in the afterlife there are no political systems ;D

Love,

pulsar

Hi Pulsar from Germany, it seems you might be a woman also? then I understand you better. it is only my opinion so take it with your own leavening. most folks see what they want to see, and I am no exception, I see what I want and disregard the rest.
in appearances you can blame Christianity or the politics of it all for our problems, but I do believe still the soul is androgenous. if I believe this way, I am both man and woman at my core, therefore being one sex or the other is just a role and I chose this gender to be this time.
we do have house husbands nowdays, its just a choice, and I applaud that a man can become more maternal in these days if he wants and the woman wants to be the breadwinner. at least in America we have that option, is this so in Germany?

I cannot say I am of political bent at all, but sometimes religion and politics do overlap, so I can understand what you say. I am more into what is appearing before me as an allusion; for instance, the allusion that if I were in a job and receiving less wages than a man, I would have to do something about it, or move on. we can only follow our heart and sometimes it takes much courage to stand up and be counted, otherwise your job ends up killing your sense of accomplishment and self worth.

fear is False Evidence Appearing Real. so be not so afraid to speak your truth. it is my motto, so I can get over feeling so small that I cause myself to stay in one spot. then if I stay in one spot, I would have to be retrieved I guess! :)

thank u for your posts, I only passed through Germany once and I like the place as much older than America, I like antiques and old buildings of fine architectural art.

America is young. just sort of a melting pot. love, alysia

Quote:

in appearances you can blame Christianity or the politics of it all for our problems, but I do believe still the soul is androgenous. if I believe this way

I think it is not Christianity or the politics, it is more about the people that actually decide how to go on in politics.
So it is not  Christianity or Politics as an institution, that I do not like at this time, but how it is interpreted.

And how high or low wages are, is made through discussions between trade unions that stand for the working people and the business administration of a company, so I still wonder why the differences between what a man or a woman earns for a living are still there.

And even if modernisation is important for development of thoughts, social circumstances or the outlook on the world we are living in for now, the "older" views, be it on morals or believing, are more drained to the background. I was a bit scared when I heard, that the next evolutionary state would be quantum computers, at least in 20 years scientist claim to be able to build computers that are able to make own decisions via ai, nearly at the possibility of a human mind. A principle that I think would work better than only rely on getting ahead, could be expressed like yesterday+today=tomorrow. So without respect for yesterday there can't be let's say a better tomorrow. And that is something that also the younger ones ( I think I still belong to them :) ) should also consider, they are not living just for their everyday fun (means not, that fun ist unimportant, I recovered fun after  4 years of perfectly denieing it as a part of myself, that is also important for my spiritual growth, without fun I think some sad part remains in your soul in the afterlife, and if you not care for it today, you would have to make it then), but that it is also important to have a certain amount of responsibility of what every action today means for your tomorrow, or the future of the children you will have to raise, it's I think a part of our nature, and like you described it on laughing-rain.com, as a kind of personal gift to the world.

The possibility for a woman to be the breadwinner is there, but less of the people use this ability (I think that I am going to raise the children I will hopefully have, since my parents were always fighting about rainsing me and my brother, my dad has not taken a big part in this when we were small chidren, but if one as a man want to have a closer relationship with his kids, it is important to have at least a 50/50 sharing of caring for the kids) . I don't know if I have the right to say it seems sometimes, there is some kind of patriarchalic thought concerning the outlook of a family to the relatives or the people around town, that you know, and it is still easier to find a job as a man, when you were out of business maybe for health reasons, than as a woman.
But at the age of 45, it is difficult for both genders to find work, companies mostly want the younger ones for working, thinking they have fresh ideas. And even there a mix of old and young is important, the younger ones can benefit from experience, and the older ones could be given a new perspective of thinking by the younger ones. And also retired people are taken to teach the younger generation, what I think is an amazing step, so they do not sit alone at home and suffer from having nothing to do (for the retired), they were also raised in times, where respect and discipline were more important, so they can pass this two things on to the future generation. A perfect example of one in all and all in one, if we would stick to it :) )
America seems to be more flexible in this "breadwinner-issue".

I never thought about maybe being a woman to, only that I am very emotional not only emotional worries, sometimes I just wish I could do more to my family, sometimes I drown in this emotional lake what at least stops me from getting ahead. (And even if I am often told by my family that I do not care, I do care more about them than they now. I desire  at least to make a bachelors degree in engineering, I always wanted a job that I like to do, not only for the fact to have money. But I also considered to get one, where I could maybe support my parents if they would ever need this support (maybe when they retire) But before considering that I should pass my practical training, since I screwed my highschool exams (takes 13 years to get them in germany) I have the possibility through that training to gain the permission to study, the theoretical part is gained automatically after only 13 years of school, but I have to stick to one subject and have no longer the possibility to study what ever I want) . They have paid long enough for my living, now it is my turn :) )
I mostly had the impression that the feeling of "I do care about you" appears stronger from women, also the care for emotional problems and let's call it downtimes, then from men, could be possible that men decide not to show much emotions for not appearing as "douchebags" (what is very stupid....).

But after all, all what we discovered and invented, the emotional level between people, and also things like faith, trust, maybe in something higher than we are, should be also made again a part of our world, before people started to misuse faith to start wars, it was a big part of being able to exist. And in times where you are daily reminded that your time is running out, it is important to have this place where your soul can rest and you do not get sourced out by everyday events. You should do everything that is possible, but not start to think you have to work 48 hours a day when you have only 24 :).
I do not wonder about that most people are unsatisfied with what they doing, because it does not come from the heart but only from the intention "you have to". So quantity reigns over quality. The bigger and more, the better, it is at least what the overall impression of society wants to make us believe.
We are more human than we sometimes want to believe we are. And if it does not change, we will never come to the point to discover what life is really worth. I personally do not believe that after this earth periode it is over and out. We begin to discover this part, but should on the other hand not only care about it, but consider it.

That was enough for this time :)

Love,

pulsar

Pulsar said: I mostly had the impression that the feeling of "I do care about you" appears stronger from women, also the care for emotional problems and let's call it downtimes, then from men, could be possible that men decide not to show much emotions for not appearing as "douchebags" (what is very stupid....).
____

so now I see where the name Pulsar came from..you want to be an engineer! sounds very good, your name. we are not staying on topic so I apologize to the original poster title new testament Bible, forgery or fable.
I think perhaps we have established that the bible is left to personal interpretation and one must dig for the truth no matter what material is read. there is some smoke in the bible which indicates there was a fire once.
___
it is the same in America from my POV, that the men I have known are not emotionally expressive, perhaps it is that they were raised this way, to not show vulnerability, as they must appear strong. it is, to their credit, part of their polarity, that they are protectors at best, and the strongest men are those not afraid to show emotions and just let that water pass under the bridge, as we are not our emotions, they are tools.
but it must be so the woman teaches them its ok to show emotions. we just love them all the more for that.
you have a lot on your plate Pulsar, I can tell from your post. I am glad you joined us. I know Germany is quite different, their working mentality, as I have a german friend who tells me, even though she is living in America, she still pays into her health insurance across the sea, its like a retirement structure.
I do not have retirement plan nor insurance of health. I plan on dropping over dead happily by natural causes such as exiting stage left on my own decision to go to sleep. unless I can vibrate into higher frequencies and change the body molecular structure by simply disappearing into another dimension..yay....
then I can go sit under a tree like an Indian, and wait.  I don't fit into any organization, except I am here with you folks, I love reading your posts. I love to wish you hope as I see your strivings. I am rooting for German, American, all countries, all humanity.
blessings be, you are a beautiful person.

I find this interesting. This is Bruce Moen's site. He strongly supports the premise of finding out for yourself. Yet when it comes to whether or not Jesus Christ ever existed as a physical person, people limit themselves to the psuedo intellectual banter of a source such as the one Darth posted. I say "limit," because some people won't consider the other side of the argument. Berserk (Don) presented some good points when this issue came up before, and it seems as if his points were completely ignored.

But I'll get back to experience, since this is Bruce's site. I used to wonder if Jesus actually existed. I did so because I was turned off by fundamentalism.  But fortunately I was open minded and open hearted enough to consider the possibility that the truth of Christ goes beyond fundamentalism. I found through numerous experiences that can't be doubted that Jesus Christ the person did indeed exist and he plays a key role in the spiritual welfare of the human race.  I also realized I had a few experiences in the past that suggested the same, it was just that I was too obtuse to realize their meaning.

As a result energetic blocks from my heart chakra up to my crown chakra went away.  Any belief system can cause a block, including prejudicial thoughts towards Jesus Christ. If a person is truly interested in getting rid of each and every energetic/psychological block that retards his or her spiritual growth, he or she might consider whether or not they are considering the issue of Jesus Christ accurately.

Regarding the crucifixion, through various spiritual means I found out that Jesus Christ was in fact crucified. This fact doesn't go away no matter how fancy of an intellectual argument somebody comes up with.

Regarding the importance of the crucifixion,  before Jesus came along people in his part of the World didn't understand that there was life after death.  Jesus came along and let people know that there is such a thing.  He taught them how to live their lives, if they wanted to end up in a nice place after they die.  He spoke to the masses in a day where the media wasn't anything like it is today. He had to speak in terms that could easilly be passed along by word of mouth. The fact of how he rose again, allowed many people to believe that life after death does exist.

People such as Bruce Moen have wrote that hell like realms exist. If you live your life in a negative way, your own sowing might cause you to end up in such a realm due to how you create your state of mind.  Sure there are some people who call themselves Christians who don't live in a positive way. This is true in all walks of life. What is important is how many people "have" been inspired to live in a positive way because of their faith.  I know lots of Christians who have been inspired by their faith to live in a positive way.

There is also the factor of the effect of opening one's self up to the spiritual support of God and Christ. I've found that it effects one in a very positive way. I don't see how a person can be against such a thing, simply because it doesn't fit into his or her viewpoint of what spiritual reality is.

There is also the issue of prayer. Lots of people believe that prayer has a benefit.  Bruce Moen suggests the same in his own way, when he found that the planning center responds to our requests.  Therefore, isn't it possible that the planning center responded to the people of Biblical times, and provided them with the Messiah they were looking for? A Messiah would be recognized by signs, including the sign of someday being crucified and rising again.

There is also the factor of the release of the holy spirit into the World, shortly after the death of Christ, as described in Acts. This viewpoint isn't limited to the Bible. This viewpoint was shared with Robert Monroe, when Rosalind Mcknight's spirit guide told Robert Monroe the following, as recorded in her book Cosmic Journeys:

"Robert Monroe: "So therefore, love is the only energy that will utimately create the healing and transformation of our planet?"

Rosalind's guide: "That is indeed so. Love is a powerful energy that is to be not simply understood, but lived. The great love guardian of your planet, known as the man Jesus, came from the highest God-energy to teach the pure lesson of love. That is why all humans have come to planet Earth, to learn to love in the fullest sense of the word. The one called Jesus came to show you how this can be done. The magnitude of his love polarized the fear levels, which is what caused his physical body to be crucified.

However, the spirit of this highly evolved energy being was released into the world to break through all fear barriers. This is known as the Holy Spirit, and helped tremendoulsy in the evolution of the planet. This is the energy that is helping the earth to shift into its higher levels of energy and is leading to the millennium or the 'thousand years of peace,' according to earth-time frame."

How can such a thing be possible? I can't say for certain, but I've found that when one raises one's vibration rate, one makes a connection to love and the World of spirit. Perhaps Jesus did so to such a degree, that an energetic connection was made to the World of spirit that benefits any person who allows his or herself to benefit. This is true even when a person opens up to love, without thinking about Christ.

The importance of Jesus can't be determined by people who haven't chosen to be inspired by him. It is determined by those who have. If people who have been inspired by him consider the event of his crucifixion to be important, THEN THIS IS WHAT MATTERS. It is quite presumptious to tell another that he or she can't be inspired in such a way.

When it comes to beings who represent the light, they aren't a bunch of dummies. They probably understood quite well that at times Jesus' teachings would be misrepresented. Yet, he was still sent with his mission.  Perhaps it is better to consider what these beings of light saw when they looked at the big picture, rather than what a disgruntled, prejudicial viewpoint tells a person. I don't get it. The spirit World tries to do some good for this World, and some people just aren't open to appreciating what was done.