Warning disclaimer - please do not read further if the topic and description of violence and death would, in any way offend you.


I have been moved to rage and tears about the family in Connecticut who died this week from a home break-in.  Maybe because it was a physician's family (like mine), maybe it was seeing the photos of the young preteen smiling, and her 17 or 18-year-old sister looking forward to college.  Maybe it was the happy "normal," family photo, and the injustice of it all.  Their lives were shattered during a 3 AM break-in.  The father was hit on the head repeatedly with a baseball bat.  The daughters were tied up and raped, while the mother was forced to withdraw money.  Afterwhich, it appears the mother was killed, and the house set on fire, killing the girls, still tied up.  The father was hospitalized with severe head injuries.

I think of those women who passed, what they endured and I wonder.  Your state of mind takes you into the afterlife.  Initially they must have felt fear, panic and rage.  The loss of the promise of earthly dreams, when they realized they were dead.  Can they quickly retain the same normal basic sense of awareness they had before this violence?  Does such a quick and violent event and death prevent spiritual advancement or growth in otherwise normal and sane people?

I'm not sure if a retrieval would be helpful.  I don't know how or if I would have the state of mind to be able to do one, in any case.  

The question, I suppose is, if we spend our lives living, and loving, and learning in the physical world, but some abomination like this occurs, is there a quick spiritual recovery?  My hope is that, when helped by others after passing on, that the initial psychic trauma would fade, and they would be basically the same good people they were before the event happened.  

Doc

Doc, I truly tragic story... It has been my understanding that most likely there may be a time of re-grouping or healing as they move over. As the shock of the actual event fades or is accepted by the passer they will be just fine. There is no pain in the afterlife. The lession of their being may well have been this one instance. My thought is the love given for/to each other at the time of the incident itself. I know it might seen as totaly negative but one lession might be forgiveness to the perpetrator given upon the time of the death. Not all of the lessions we are here to experience are ones that we will enjoy or that other will think worthy of having. They are experiences we must have to further our awareness. Our lifes are a lession of love and giving. Sometime we give our lives in horrific ways to learn our lessions or to assist others in their need to learn. A true gift of love.

To answer directly, Doc, the quick solution is to forgive and restore love.

I recall a woman with severe arthritis plus severe fibromyalgia (all 18 tender points etc - none of this minor aches and pains stuff like I have). She asked why she had been selected by God to have these afflictions. n regression she found that she had been a young girl, kidnapped, tied up in a barn and used as a sexual toy by a group o men, finally starving to death. Her pain was caused by recollections of her agony, anchored by intense hatred and rage.

Eventually, I asked whether she had ever dne anything of the same type to anyone else, and she abruptly recaled that previously she had been the perpetrator. In her specific case, she could feel only slight compassion for those who had harmed her,  and left without resolution - whichis her priviledge.

The basic traumatic response mechanism is (1) I hurt and it's "your" fault. (2) To blame you I have to remember the pain, and I anchor that with hatred of "you". (3) I change my personality, my muscle tone and my physical posture o incorporate these tensions. (4) My body hurts because of what it is experiencing, and that gives me pain. I think I will feel better if I can bame "you". (1) back to step one.

When you untwist people and relax long term cramps and such, this kind of thing is very often the cause - although it might be so deeply buried and surrounded by present time brush fires that it might not be visible. However, the retrieval process for a disembodied soul, or direct regression if they're still in the flesh, allows you to help release the pain of the event and forgive.

There is a myth that forgiveness is weakness. In fact, to forgive sets us free from the after effects of the event - it's a specific for post traumatic stress syndrome. The perpetrators etc are thus shut out and their influence barred from having further effects.

I fully understand your sense of horror at the event. Juditha's alien spook who brought the asmell of vomit is to the point. However, as a healing professional your salvation is to keep in mind that you represent the solution, not the problem, and that anything you do, no matter how little, will ease pain.  This doesn't change history, but it salvages the present, even after death. And the other thing I teach, when I'm doing the training for psychoanalysts in my clinic, is to allow your office door to close when you go home. That includes such cases. Then, when it's time, put on the healing hat and deal with them. Otherwise your compassion will drive you bonkers with the wretchedness of the human situation.

Incidently, I'm about a psychic as a large rock, so I do retrievals poorly. Instead I do regression work, it's all the same. Techniques are the same too. The only real difference is that I've never had a spirit pay for my time.

PUL
dave

Hi Dave, and Hawkeye,

I think my question was not about forgiveness.  It makes sense that one must overcome the trauma and pain one feels, and release it through forgiveness.  Forgiving even the ultimate evil these poor people face can, however be a monumental task if the victims' lives were taken violently.  That is where my question lies.....

Can victims of these unthinkable crimes lose their panic and negative emotions on crossing over, quickly enough to embrace love and forgiveness?  I know there is no one  "set" answer to this quesiton, but it seems to be important.

Nice answers though, for what was said.


Matthew

Doc:

I believe things are worked out so spirits with special needs are met. For example, while helping with retrievels, my energetic level is adjusted in different ways so that a stuck spirit first sees an energetic level that reflects its state of mind, and then it sees my connection to the light.

My feeling is that spirits who don't want to change, are the spirits who have difficulty crossing over. You can't help someone if they don't want to be helped. The people who got killed probably wanted to be helped.  Plus, it is also possible they experienced what some NDE people experience, and crossed over right away.

I saw that one of the daughter's who got raped was really young.  It hard to imagine that friendly spirits aren't taking care of her.

I would assume, Matthew, that these innocent victims were immediately received "into the light" as they say.... If not, then surely a helper of some kind, or deceased family members who were aware of the manner of their departure, would be there to assist their travels.

I'm sure it wouldn't do any harm for anyone here to "check in" and see if a retrieval could be helpful, but from my own personal experience in this life, I would not assume that they were angry or afraid when they reached the other side....more likely, disoriented, if anything.  

I would also assume that they might be more concerned for the husband/father and other family members left behind than with the perpetrator, at least from reading accounts of near death experiences.

I can see why you would relate to this story in a personal way. Those would be your natural protective instincts coming out.

love, blink

What I responded to was your own statement that you had been moved to rage and tears.  Evidently missed the point. Sorry. For us as professional healers, our job requires us to keep in mind that this is God acting upon God at the level of individuals, and that equanimity can be restored. That handles the rage and tears (or most of it - I still have a pretty strong opinion as well when I am working with people molested as infants etc).

Those who are involved in what seem to us as senseless acts are always there because of something necessary that we simply have no access to. They can, if they are willing, realize those conditions and release them, along with gaining the rest of the truth about how reality works, at the moment of death. But it seems so much easier to cling to rage and hatred that they often do not release their prior entanglements. That's job security for me, and for others in the healing arts.

In a pragmatic sense, I get the impresson that until someone is willing to accept being victimized, and then is willing to accept forgiveness for their tormentor, it is possible for destructiveness can go back and forth for many generations. I cited a case in which the woman was in denial of her responsibility for becoming a victim. This is very common.  

Dave said:

"In a pragmatic sense, I get the impresson that until someone is willing to accept being victimized, and then is willing to accept forgiveness for their tormentor, it is possible for destructiveness can go back and forth for many generations."

I think forgiveness is a difficult concept for most to grasp, but essential for spiritual progression.  I sometimes wonder how our life in the dualistic physical world of hard knocks could prepare most of us for forgiving those who committ crimes against us while we were alive.  One of the key realizations is that we are all flawed beings, we all make mistakes.  Acceptance first of ourselves, and then of the crazy world around us is important.

Acceptance of the world does not need to be interpreted as "inaction" or paralysis.  We hear of certain Buddhists who would not wave a fly off their food or kill an insect because of their belief of the sanctity of all life and the negative entanglements of karma.  However, if one is afraid that every action may involve hurting another or negative karma, some simply become inactive, or withdraw into themselves.  This misses the point of our incarnation.  Action with good intentions or "right action," is always the right path, rather than inaction to avoid a negative outcome.

When I step back, I can see that forgiving these two men who perpetrated those unimaginable acts is likely the correct path, but alas, I am not fully enlightened yet and sometimes do get caught up in the dualism of it all.  The prosecutor said something to the effect that he was aware that if the public had their way, these two guys "would be fried tomorrow."  

I simply wonder at the state of these innocents on having been brutalized and then passing over.  Our rational mind can separate out of the horror and then move on - but in spirit, our emotional state tends to send us where emotions can.  I only hope the mother and two daughters can be retrieved so that they are able to accept their situation, release the emotions involved and then forgive - in order to move on.  But if I'm not at that stage yet, why would they be?

M

If I had the option of being the victims or the victees, I'd rather be the victims, because I couldn't stand being responsible for what those two men did, nor would I want to have to go through the spiritual work they have to go through.

The victims on the other hand, they might need some psychological healing, but you can never hurt the spirits they are.

I tend to agree with Blink regarding them being disoriented when they move over. As they have sure to find out, there is no death, only movement so to speak, hopefully to home. Don't get me wrong. I hope the perpetrators create a place for them selfs when they leave this life so that they can experience "hell" as they have been a part of creating here for this family. i would also think that they are allready forgiven by the ones killed. the one remaining is likely a different story.

Hi Matthew There are so many bad things in this world and if only it could all stop and everyone could love one another,what a wonderful world it would be then.

I read this book once written by Doris stokes ,who was a very loving and genuine medium and she said that when anyone suffers a violent death, they are in a spirit hospital in the spirit world and are visited by there loved ones,who have passed before them and also they are put in soothing chambers were beautiful music and much peace is around them and also spirit helpers who talk to them and try and help them come to terms of there violent death and also being made to realise they are in the spirit world,they are given much love and help as when sometimes someone passes because of violent death,they need that bit more love and help.And they are gradually made well again and then they join there loved ones.

Love and God bless      Love juditha

Personally, I don't forgive them. I hope they fry. But again, thats my emotions talking.

I have been near to hell or one of its implmentations.

I motioned away from it but was nudged back to look by another intention who knew I should observe it for my own good, and rightly so.

It is behond bearable and I am not sure of its length for the party involved.

It is soild and iron, i guess maybe this is the starting point or the source, it is to much to face, to go back to.


When you walk around and do your tasks it is like being at the end of a diving board. You naturally stand at the back the start, really we are very far out with lots of chance to do bad against our record or mert/karma.

But the other side is the plus side, love and good for us and others, it with easy outweighs this calulation or implmentation.

You are lucky to be far out, it is given to you in trust that you understand, from what i can work out you did (we) understand and kind of pledge at the start, some people can remember that, I kind of can, the moment when I showed my being and was forced into being.

I was very very ill when I was younger and I dreamed of this part of me, my have never been thtat ill in my life.

Its all too much for me really.. being honest here, I need a break to settle myself and start again each day needs a month to reflect on.

I am nothing and that is the way I will be be for one thousand more life times but at least in this life time I will not kill any body and will take ....

I will try, it accounts for nothing but I agree to agree and if some body can see sense and then do the action required willingly with intention.,That it is for joy and right.

Then there maybe a chance. that a master can lead us.

As I write this I am thinking about the differnce between the normal us and the enlighten beings or even close to it, it is such a difference, a difference in terms of weight as I am a ton and a buddha is a feather.


There is only awareness and good finally, ultimatly those in charge deserve their position there is no evil only the truth.

There are tools and methods to remind those who need reminding and fixing, fixing is too strong a word but were the water goes it goes.

Im just getting my head down and doing it (life) at the end Ill be where ill be ,it wont be perfect but to be perfect means to be perfect Ill leave that to others who have been more honest than I.

I dont have any thing more to say, thankfully there will always be the path always.

bud

The day I start believing murderers should be punished in a hell realm, is the day I'll start believing in a wrathful and vengeful God, and I won't do that.

I'm certain it is understood in the spirit World that many spirits who incarnate into the physical World are going to end up being negative people. It happens way too much for it not to be a possibility.  Even though spirits are divine Souls before they incarnate, they get off course. Why? Because the World is filled with all kinds of corrupting influences. We're provided with an ego like nature that causes us to be self centered and defensive.  Sometimes we're provided with living circumstances that make it difficult to be a  positive person. It hurts when we are cut off from the love we inately desire. So some people end up negative.

Why does the spirit World keep sending Souls into this World even though it understands that some will become negative for a while? Because it has no choice. We keep creating difficult lifetimes. Parents who are racists, abusers, molestors, gang bangers, drug pushers, terrorists, mafia members, and so on. Combine this with other possible negative influences, some spirits are going to end up being negative for a while, just as some end up being positive.

Perhaps the spirits who volunteer for difficult lifetimes are courageous. Do so even though they understand the strong possibility things might go bad. They probably also understand that if they do go bad, there are light beings who will try to help them when they get stuck in a lower realm.

It is also important to understand that once a Soul realizes it has made mistakes and truly feels sorry about doing so, there is no point in throwing stones at it.  This is because the personality that made the mistakes no longer exists. What and who we are inately and eternally means much more than who we are for a short period of time.

It would be impossible for me to help with retrievels, if I felt the need to pass judgement on each Soul I try to help.

Matthew,

Of course, as you know, the postmortem plight of the famiily would be affected by their spiritual development and belief systems.  I would simply observe that hauntings and poltergeist activity often seem to manifest the presence of discarnate spirits who were victims of a crime or a violent sudden death.  These manifestations raise the question of whether the victims are "stuck" in some way between "worlds."  Perhaps the shock of the trauma creates an unhealthy obsession with the scene of the crime and a long-lingering phase during which the discarnate soul has trouble processing and accepting that they are indeed dead.

You will recall Leonard's dramatic experience of being chauffeured around by his recently deceased son Jeff in the latter's pick-up truck.  Jeff, his wife, and his two children had just been killed in a small plane crash.  The next day, a still grieving Leonard was confronted by Jeff's late wife Karen on a path in the woods behind his country home.  The question inevitably arises as to why such spectactular verifcations are so rere.  A sudden violent exit may create a trauma that temporarily cements our thought processes to an earthbound mentality and thus delays our progress, while at the same time retaining an intense attunement to the earth plane that enhances the possiblities of ADC communication.

OBE adepts like Bob Monroe and Robert Bruce independently report visits to a Healing Center in what seems like Paradise.  Sudden and unexpected violent exits from the earth plane might create a special urgency for an extensive postmortem convalescence program.  I suspect that this program is very temporary.

Don

recoverer wrote on Jul 26^th, 2007 at 7:42pm:

The day I start believing murderers should be punished in a hell realm, is the day I'll start believing in a wrathful and vengeful God, and I won't do that. I'm certain it is understood in the spirit World that many spirits who incarnate into the physical World are going to end up being negative people. It happens way too much for it not to be a possibility.  Even though spirits are divine Souls before they incarnate, they get off course. Why? Because the World is filled with all kinds of corrupting influences. We're provided with an ego like nature that causes us to be self centered and defensive.  Sometimes we're provided with living circumstances that make it difficult to be a  positive person. It hurts when we are cut off from the love we inately desire. So some people end up negative. Why does the spirit World keep sending Souls into this World even though it understands that some will become negative for a while? Because it has no choice. We keep creating difficult lifetimes. Parents who are racists, abusers, molestors, gang bangers, drug pushers, terrorists, mafia members, and so on. Combine this with other possible negative influences, some spirits are going to end up being negative for a while, just as some end up being positive. Perhaps the spirits who volunteer for difficult lifetimes are courageous. Do so even though they understand the strong possibility things might go bad. They probably also understand that if they do go bad, there are light beings who will try to help them when they get stuck in a lower realm. It is also important to understand that once a Soul realizes it has made mistakes and truly feels sorry about doing so, there is no point in throwing stones at it.  This is because the personality that made the mistakes no longer exists. What and who we are inately and eternally means much more than who we are for a short period of time. It would be impossible for me to help with retrievels, if I felt the need to pass judgement on each Soul I try to help.

Recoverer,

Excellent points you make, in my opinion.  Truth spoken here.

love, blink :)

Berserk2 wrote on Jul 26^th, 2007 at 7:49pm:

Matthew, OBE adepts like Bob Monroe and Robert Bruce independently report visits to a Healing Center in what seems like Paradise.  Sudden and unexpected violent exits from the earth plane might create a special urgency for an extensive postmortem convalescence program.  I suspect that this program is very temporary. Don

This makes sense, Don, and also makes sense that it would normally be of short duration. Perhaps part of this convalescence is to be placed in sitations which are healing to our souls, such as in activities we always loved. The convalescence center may simply be a place for some to "sleep" as they wish, and others to have "experiences" created for them by interested and caring guides/helpers/other spirits.

In fact, if this scenario were different and we were speaking of a war scene in which all were killed, including the perpetrator....but, I take away that word....the perpetrator in this instance sees himself/herself as a soldier.....

Perhaps all might end up in this convalescence center together, but in different areas of perception there.

I have seen, in meditation, a place like this, being used for good purposes.

As far as ghosts that go bump in the night because they are so tied to the earth plane...that is surely a possibility, but I would think it a much less likely one. So many accounts of near death experiences show that souls in such dire circumstances often find themselves away from their bodies almost immediately, and with great suddenness, and find themselves irresistably attracted to the light they see.

Therefore, if they are ready, of course they will have an accounting of their lives, there in the Light, in whatever manner is right for them. If they are just not ready yet, perhaps a place to "rest" for a while is necessary.

love, blink :)

recoverer, I believe that the being its self creates the heaven or hell scenario. An edvanced soul such as yourself is far beyond those limiting thoughts or areas I would think. Your statement about beings being courageous for living some of these lifetime is very true. How courageous for those kids and the Mom to have chosen such a horrific way to have their lives end and/or to have assisted in helping anouther move further along  the road to spiritual enlightenenment, (or to help themselfs move along.) I also don't wish the perpetrators hell. I don't have a say in the matter as only they can create their own. as for punishment for their deeds here on earth, that is a different matter. My value of life make me want something done to them for what they did. I may not be right spiritually for wanting it but if the only one to judge and impose punishment was yourself when you die, then what a world we would be living in. Not everone is advanced so far as to do no harm and sometime the lesson needed to be learned will come through these meens.  

Blink said:

Recoverer,

Excellent points you make, in my opinion.  Truth spoken here.

"Thank you Blink." :)

Hawkeye:

I figure the two men who commited the murders have a lot of suffering ahead of them. Unless they admit that what they did was wrong while alive and do something to change themselves, they are liable to end up in a lower realm after they die.  Not because God sends them there, but because this is where their states of mind will lead them.

I don't believe the death penalty is a good idea, because there is a chance they will admit how wrong they were to do what they did while alive.  If they don't, they might end up being negative minded earth bound spirits who continue to do harm until somebody finally gets them to admit their mistakes, and cross over to the light.

Regarding the victims, when they find out how happy life is in the heavenly realm they end up in, I doubt they are going to hold a grudge against the men who killed them.  Of course the loved ones they left behind will go through some hardship. Hopefully they inwardly heal themselves before they rejoin their deceased loved ones in the spirit World.  If they find a way to look at the bigger picture, their healing will proceed much faster. A vengeful attitude won't help them or anybody else heal. Of course it is understandible why they might be angry.



hawkeye wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 12:08pm:

recoverer, I believe that the being its self creates the heaven or hell scenario. An edvanced soul such as yourself is far beyond those limiting thoughts or areas I would think. Your statement about beings being courageous for living some of these lifetime is very true. How courageous for those kids and the Mom to have chosen such a horrific way to have their lives end and/or to have assisted in helping anouther move further along  the road to spiritual enlightenenment, (or to help themselfs move along.) I also don't wish the perpetrators hell. I don't have a say in the matter as only they can create their own. as for punishment for their deeds here on earth, that is a different matter. My value of life make me want something done to them for what they did. I may not be right spiritually for wanting it but if the only one to judge and impose punishment was yourself when you die, then what a world we would be living in. Not everone is advanced so far as to do no harm and sometime the lesson needed to be learned will come through these meens.

DocM wrote on Jul 26^th, 2007 at 3:24pm:

Hi Dave, and Hawkeye, I think my question was not about forgiveness.  It makes sense that one must overcome the trauma and pain one feels, and release it through forgiveness.  Forgiving even the ultimate evil these poor people face can, however be a monumental task if the victims' lives were taken violently.  That is where my question lies..... Can victims of these unthinkable crimes lose their panic and negative emotions on crossing over, quickly enough to embrace love and forgiveness?  I know there is no one  "set" answer to this quesiton, but it seems to be important. Nice answers though, for what was said. Matthew

hi Doc  recently I wrote an article and felt I had to put it up on myspace, of similar violent circumstance involving a young college boy as the perpetrator against his parent. I observed in my mind, the slain father's body had risen, his heart still pumping blood, but his spirit had vacated the premises, as that can be the only explanation for after having received enough hatchet blows to the head, you get up and start putting the dishes away, and then he finally died, the body died.

I have observed a few stories here and there of early departure of a spirit, while the body still lives robotic like status. so I am assuming we all have guides, and that the girls inner, essence is allowed to blink out during too much violence.

it comforts my sense of outrage to think so anyway.

in regards to this same context I think of Cami, an extremely lucid retrieval, she was 16 and I as retriever could only sense the tragic circumstances, and since I wasn't there to dig into her mind, but only to gain her attention, I didn't press for details, but I sensed rape and murder were a part of that.

after death she was disposed to areas in the astral, the counterparts of happier conditions, a school with peers. the pleasure she had known there, she tried to return to. a brief question and answer session with her I can describe, it may help you to reduce your level of outrage:

beginnings: I observe a depressed teen slink in and take a seat within the gymnasium rec room.
I briefly consider my role as mother spirit and take a form throwing myself at her feet asking for attention.
she smiles and reaches to pet me on the head coming up briefly from her troubles and confusion. she remembers nothing that is too difficult to remember. a shock. there is a blinking out of memories, so that she will remember only when she is prepared to deal with it.

what is you name? I ask. Cami she says.
How do u spell that I ask.
She tells me.
How old are you? I ask
16 she says.
where is your family I ask.
then I tell her my family is small, is hers also small?
I have an aunt she says, brightening to recall the love she has for her aunt.
where is your aunt? I ask
A cloud comes over her face as confusion again arises. I see her mind, I see a boyfriend of the aunt is involved in some tragedy.
Spirit tell me back off, you are not a psychoanalyst right at this time.
we are entering dangerous territory and guides assistance is immediately needed to take Cami with them, as does happen, there were 5 or 6 of her peers entered at just the right time, before I could probe any deeper.

since I had her attention, it was easy to lead her to the guides whom she could not see at first, I just shifted my gaze to them and she followed my attention and they received her into their care.

The PUL had made us one, so that the shift could occur and the retrieval be accomplished.

______

I'm not going to mention forgiveness as the others have mentioned the importance of it. forgiveness clears the way for PUL though. she was not at a place to even know of this tool yet.  theres one other story Alan Watts mentions of two men who ran each other through, exiting the body at the same time, floating upwards in their spirit forms, they continued fighting until they both burst out laughing as they finally noticed after much further "running thru" nobody was dropping. ::)

I imagine they then made their way to their appropriate classroom and an alternative solution perhaps to settling one's differences other than the sword.

all in all, it is we, who are left, that suffer the most when these tragedies occur. I studied the senselessness of the holocaust in this vein for many years and concluded there are sacrificial spirits who have that in their intentions for incarnating, as I believe the jews did; it was for us to wake up then as a whole humanity, so we could get past the way that we have become a warring planet which must change each one in their heart to decide, no, I won't kill anymore, nor harm life.
and its true as a healer, what you are, you have to do your part to focus on mending the others and eventually we all have to mend each other.

Could it not be that these people who were killed, chose to do so willingly before this carnation, as an offering of assistence to the perpetrators to assist them in gaining a furthering of spritual awareness. If so, what a gift. How would one make the choice to leave behind a living family member (the Dad) to help others? A true offer of sacrifice, giving and PUL.(?)

Hi Its good to forgive but not easy to actually do it,as i have forgiven people all through my life and sometimes ive regretted it as some of them when i forgave them for something ,just turned around and threw it back at me,so ive regreetted it sometimes,so it is hard sometimes to do the right thing like forgive,especially people that take a  life away from loving families

This is what ZODIAC said through this medium,as he was around the same time as Jesus and sometimes walked with him.And this is what he says about the part of the lords prayer  Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive them,that tresspass against us,this is what he says.

You are exhorted for your own sakes to tear out of your hearts and mind the bitterness of unforgiveness.As much is expected of the child as is forthcoming from the Father.If you pray with sincerity to be able to forgive those who have injured you,then on making the crossing through the veil you will see that the hurt that seemed to remain was only imagination.

"Forgive us our tresspasses"again and again we have to make this petition to the Father.It should not be necessary for me to tell you that His loving Heart never would or could shut us out.Over and over again these spiritual battles go on in the heart and mind of man.The higher side cries out to be free from the lesser and yet that lesser at times appears to be the stronger and anguish follows as a natural result.

In spite of the clamour of the physical mind God hears the cry of the spirit within and never ceases to help and encourage it to get free.Do not be disheartened by these battles.They seem so terribly destructive to you as if in a few short hours they had the power to pull out the bricks of the foundation of your faith so that the whole world would topple to the ground.This is the trial of those who wish to do better.To those who do not wish to do better,the tragedy does not seem so intense.Do try and read between the lines and strive more earnestly to gather in some faint conception of the love and compassion of your Father.

Love and God bless   Love Juditha

hawkeye wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 4:24pm:

Could it not be that these people who were killed, chose to do so willingly before this carnation, as an offering of assistence to the perpetrators to assist them in gaining a furthering of spritual awareness. If so, what a gift. How would one make the choice to leave behind a living family member (the Dad) to help others? A true offer of sacrifice, giving and PUL.(?)

I don't know in all cases that it was predestined. we do have some choosing and experimenting and plans going awry on this planet, as well the soul's intentions for incarnating. this just my opinion, my thought, take it with grain of salt.

I was thinking of the Jews, that i was there, otherwise I would be able to stop thinking about them. but the years went on and still I grieved, so I think I was there.
I saw the entire race as a cloud of energy with individuals in it. and it was agreed there would be sacrifice for these ones. and maybe thats why it was said back then, they were the ones chosen of god. the sacrifice was not in vain. we can never think otherwise and still grow in god's love.

but these isolated instances of brutality and mindlessness are a different matter. I do not think in all cases it is destiny so much as an experiment to see if the right choice can be made, and a soul can then advance more quickly. the parents and the boy's soul may have been informed before incarnation of the risk and agreed to undergo that anyway. like I said, just my opinion.

we are essentially on a planet where anything can happen due to free will.
and not enough education of the right kind, my opinion.

I was talking with my guides on one occassion about the violent ones, who snap, in our courts they defend these by saying they are insane. true enough. my guides then told me the predator mentalities are metered into the earth plane, so that total anarchy will not result from too much of this violence, of course, those of us on a spiritual path will say even one such incidence is one too many, we share our planet with the insane while attempting to teach the insane a better way through the social system. I look to a new world where education that we do not really die can change some of the violence we encounter. I would not choose to be saying, die, its good for you because we agreed to this plan somewhere else. thats a little bit insane to think that way.
but if we say control your passion which is without thought, which is without compassion, then we are teachers to these others, in this life or the next.

in my story the parents were not knowing their son and those possibilities inherent in him. a parent should study their child day and night and get very close to their thought system. this is another way to look at prevention of violence.


and then we are all a little touched as well, just to a lessor degree than the mayhem we are looking at now. we need help.

love, alysia

thanks Juditha, for talking as you do, from your guidance. it is important.

Hi there,
I would like to have some clarity about "forgiveness". What would you say would be the healthiest meaning?

To "let go"? Like "forget it", I don't care anymore, don't think about those sad things.

To, so to say, actively forgive, actually to have the specific deed in mind and, like to abate debts, abate the debt of this deed.

Or, something in the middle. I saw on tv a lady who was in a German concentration camp, and lost her relatives. She said (from my memory), "Forget? No. That's impossible. But forgive...it's another thing. If I wouldn't, I would be full of hate, I would get ill about it. So I forgive."
As you can see, she is very aware of her own health and thinks pragmatic. But it does not explain what forgiveness actually is, how you do it. It surely has something of "let go", "release", "discharge". Is there maybe a sort of visualization which could explain it to me?

Spooky

Hi Spooky. unforgiveness sets up pockets of energy blocking pathways in the body, most often to the organ of the heart. tumors can develop from holding unforgivenss in the human body. it is therefore as you say releasing that energy which does solidify.

in order to truly forgive I think one would see the grievance that needs to be released, as having been a lesson plan. for instance, how was I responsible for what befell me?
various scenes could play out in the mind how it might have been avoided until one fits and one can see where one failed to avoid the suffering. unless we're talking about children who do not harbor grievances the way adults do.
then we can perceive innocense in both parties, but only with assistance from guidance can we learn to forgive at first. then one can forgive automatically and come into power that way, to not be holding the energy for sometimes years, it gets held there.
I think there must be an inherent belief in justice to prevail eventually, but that of our own selves, not from our hand necessarily, but a faith in order to prevail, a divine order.
there are equalizer spirit NP's out there who love balancing the ledger, so we can assume they are of god also if we are all one. we can have faith. it moves mountains.

but first things first, since we are all one, forgiveness of self goes before forgiveness of another.
I used to say, to give good will as before the grievance occurred is forgiving.
forgetting is not truly to forget, as the memory is there. but the memory no longer induces a painful reaction.
all in all, to see bitterness as an energy construct in my body, really helped me identify the problem.

love, alysia

Dave insightful as uaual


Quote:

The basic traumatic response mechanism is (1) I hurt and it's "your" fault. (2) To blame you I have to remember the pain, and I anchor that with hatred of "you". (3) I change my personality, my muscle tone and my physical posture o incorporate these tensions. (4) My body hurts because of what it is experiencing, and that gives me pain. I think I will feel better if I can bame "you". (1) back to step one

The story of the woman clarifies while also rasing questions...

Since I have struggled with sowm trauma and not been too good with the forgiveness, I reallt found this interesting.

Because part of the problem is not understanding how I attracted the trauma into my life. Perhaps when we start delving into understanding "we create our own reality" we have to learn to go deeper than we know we can...to a deeper level than we know exists.  You have to know all the layers to realit before you can understand how you create the events you see in C1. It is a challenge to connect all the dots when they are on multidimensional planes.

It is a little too easy to say maybe someone did something in a past life that brought this about, but when you can tie a current event into something someone recalls (even if it is under special conditions) then it seems so much more valid an argument. I assume there have been other cases where people could go the forgiveness route and achieve loss of pain from doing so? I assume you've witnessed that. Yes? No?

Alot of my not letting go early on was because I just couldn't get it as to why this came into my life. (Still don't but Time helps you let go some). I suppose a Saint would just let it go.

SO many people are now hearing about this story and expressing outrage...I wonder what that looks like from the other side?

Forgiveness...intellectually, I think the letting go is ultimately realizing that we create the illusion. But Spooky, I don't know how to live that.

Greetings,

Lucy said:
" It is a challenge to connect all the dots when they are on multidimensional planes."

That's great, Lucy!
Now that i have arthritis and am about to give up my painting and drawing, I've been looking for an artsncrafts format that I can do. I think you just invented it--thank you!
And like you, I'm motivated to draw out those little rascals, wherever their trail leads!

Love, Bets

Hi Spooky-
My personal expression of forgiveness is not an "I don;t care" attitude, nor is it "that's OK" or "You can do it again". It's a case in which we do not need to burden ourselves seeking vengeance over some kind of damage done to us by others. In that way, it is a retreat from the scene that ends the potentiality for further interaction. That doesn't mean that we need to go back and stick our hand in the mouth of a dog because we forgave it for biting us last time we did that. I simply means that we accept it to be the nature of the dog to bite, just as the nature of a snake is the slide on its belly, and the nature of egocentric and needy people to exploit others - they know no better. Well, God help them, and let me out of there.

Viewed in reverse, as long as we hold a grudge we are still giving our power to others. We allow them to determine our lives. To forgive and move on gets rid of that. It does nothing for them, but it sets us free. The cycle thus is changed from the toxic loop to a healing pattern.

(1) I hurt. (2) I investigate and discover how the problem came to pass. (Focus is on facts, not the cast of characters.) (3) I evaluate and perform damage control. (4) I take steps to prevent the issue from happening again. (For example, I decide not to invade small countries without first coming up with an exit strategy.) (5) I put it behind me as a fact of history, and go on with life.

This is the escape from the toxic loop.

In my practice I offer a slight modification, which is to suggest that "You can forgive him and just go on, or you can forgive him and send him off to be 'repaired as needed' by God. Which do you prefer?" Most people take the latter choice, which allows them to feel vindicated, yet no longer involved.  I also make it a point, when it's a person in a harmful relationship, to point out that to forgive their SO doesn't mean to stay in harm's way. If it hurts to do something, or to go somewhere, then don;t do it and don;t go there.

Hope this helps-
dave

Alysia and Dave,
I'd like to see the common thing of your responds in a visual way.

Unforgiveness creates a psychologic and often bodily sensible "block"- a thought which has almost bodily quality, a "thought-thing", this because it is stabilized like a swirl, it stabilizes itself because it is a loop: It provokes a person to think it all over again, this thinking keeps it solid, so it can provoke one to think it again etc... This pattern sounds, so I guess, familiar to people who have done retrievals, because most retrievees live in such a block, an ever again repeating thought-loop.
Now forgiveness would be to destabilize this semi-solid bothering thought thing through cracking the loop, this by letting it be one event in open time, rather than allow it to be a loop-time event on it's own. To not be catched in this loop, but again able to see the openness, the free horizon. By putting this traumatic event back in a line of events, includes, as you both said, to become aware of it's surrounding, meaning why could it happen, and how can it be made to not happen again.

Alysia, yes I think it's best to start with forgiving one's self. It might be that in every grief what we have, while it seems that something different causes us pain, there might be as well an element of self-guilt in it, like "I let it happen, I'm just too weak" or "Basically, I caused it with my behaviour" or so. Our nature seems to be that we can accuse ourselves in the same way like we can accuse others, as if we were many persons in one. This is leading to the thought that we are one, when we can treat ourselves like we can treat other persons.

That again leads to a thing you both have in your responds, the external, or wholeness instance you could trust in, reaching the faulty things to it for healing, fixing. Also ourself, I remember there is this christian prayer when things get tough, "I command my soul into God's hands" or so.

Personally, I have such a semi-solid feeling block- but not yet able to see what it consists of in detail, meaning where it comes from; it is fed by my aggressions and anxieties, which are, I guess, at least partly, provoked by it, so we have this feedback loop again. With time and meditation I'm optimistic it would uncover and be solved.

Thank you,

Spooky

hi Spooky, I suppose the topic of forgiveness we can go on about forever, as the simple word hardly will explain it well.
it seems we all have a block somewhere, and what I like about you is you give us yourself here for years, I never saw anyone giving their self back to you but you still stayed. so you must be a strong person and I can see you will get beyond your blocks, whatever that means. guess I could call it faith.
I like the philosophy I found on this board "see it not there." thats not denial to mean. thats just to keep one's focus on the solution, not the problem.

its so simple, it alludes the intellect. perhaps it means the straight and narrow way or not to get distracted. this world is full of distractions from the solution of lending an ear to each other without judgement.
I rarely see you offer judgement to another. thats why you're a friend of mine!

thanks for being here for me in the past. I may not have said it enough. love, alysia

Yes Alysia, that seems typical for our earth here, it's complicated but at the same time so simple!

"Seeing it not there", as I found this in one Bruce's books (the black stuff story), is indeed something that relates here. One could call it also "See through it" or so. It is to stop the interaction with something, so not positive interaction (attachment, "I must have it!") nor negative interaction ("I have to push it away!") and leave it there discharged of emotions, neutral, at least it could mean this in the relation of forgiveness.

Yes, hehe, much distractions. I guess we all become sometimes overloaded of it and that's the point where we want to be monks in a desert monastery (we can simulate it in meditation with some luck and practice) :-) .

Thanks for letting me be your friend Alysia!

Spooky

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/obsession/givinupghost.gif
  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/obsession/outtahere.gif

anytime dearlight. yet I read your post and you mention strong "I must have it," those feelings of passion endeavor cannot be overlooked. the times I did receive some experience we consider paranormal was during the time I needed it most, when I in turmoil or high excitement point u could say. so we can utilize desire that way I suppose, it just depends on whether its a me, myself and I, wishful thinking or if someone else's good figures in as of equal importance, then it may be ok to strain at the bit perhaps, but I try not to get too uptight about anything.
always remember that night when I wanted to know if the afterlife was real and those spirits practically broke my door down and had to ask them to leave! haha! ah, wasn't funny then. but now I know whats real about us, cannot be injured, so exploring should be more comfortable with the knowledge we are safe.

When it comes to "forgiveness" does it not all revolve around ego? To forgive is to release such and not to is to retain and be in effect of this ego.

hawkeye wrote on Jul 30^th, 2007 at 1:38pm:

When it comes to "forgiveness" does it not all revolve around ego? To forgive is to release such and not to is to retain and be in effect of this ego.

yes I believe you understand perfectly..I'd say anytime your mind is upset, not at peace, that is an indication and effect of the ego in control.

love, alysia

I will now go into my objective analytical Vulcan persona to deal
with this. First, why do we have this emotion? It is my belief that
most of our emotions have their origin in evolution, meaning that
persons who have these emotions are more likely to survive. Thus
this tendency is transmitted to the next generation.

The evolutionary purpose of strong emotions is to arouse the
organism to action. Like, an attack on ones family produces
powerful primitive response that is built in. Those who have that
strong reaction are better able to protect their family, and thus,
the emotion will be transmitted genetically down through the family.

The ultimate resolution of the emotion is to destroy the enemy, and
that also accomplishes an evolutionary purpose. Thus the evil
person is destroyed, so that the tribe can live on with this menace
out of the way. In primitive societies this kind of thing happens.
The violent troublemaker is killed, so that he does not transmit his
genes, and over centuries the species becomes more civilized.

When civilization requires an arrest and trial, which might even
not result in the death of the perpetrator, then the immediate
primitive resolution is thwarted. Or maybe the perpetrator is not
caught, again thwarting the "natural" resolution.

One story I read was about a primitive tribe. A man kidnapped an 8
year old girl, a member of the tribe, and sold her as a slave in a
distant location, where she later died. Finally the tribe caught
him, brought him back and tied him to a tree. They then cut pieces
of meat out of his stomach while he screamed in pain, and cooked
them and ate them, while he watched. This performed therapy for the
tribe. I am not suggesting this as modern therapy. Nevertheless,
justice was performed, he got what he deserved, and closure was
given. The evolutionary function was also performed, because the
troublemaker was eliminated from posterity. And also, he went to
his next life with traumatic memories of the penalty of wrongdoing,
stored memories useful in his next life.

When it does not happen this way, the primitive emotion goes
unfulfilled, and eats at the survivors of the crime, from then on,
maybe causing physical symptoms. Forgiveness then is an artificial
device to reduce the intensity of the emotion. It says, "I will no
longer continue with this emotion". Forgiveness does not in this
case represent a higher justice. It represents the failure of
justice, where justice can not be obtained. Forgiveness is not the
same thing as justice, it is something else.

If I were faced with this, instead of forgiveness which is not
sincere, I would say to myself, either I must find the perpetrator,
or I must dismiss this emotion, if I can't find him. I would not
give a phoney undeserved forgiveness. I would retain the idea that
justice should be performed. Bin Laden should be found and stoned
to death. And if he is, the important thing is done. The other
terrorists will know what will happen to them.

How would I dismiss the emotion? Is that impossible? We Vulcans can
do that. I have learned to do that when it is necessary. Whenever a
tool is missing, I get strong emotions, because they have been
stolen in the past. But I dismiss this emotion, because the odds
are 99 % that I have misplaced the tool. Sure enough, later it
turns up. An emotional response would have been wasted. But when it
does not turn up, like it is stolen, the anger must be diverted
into efforts to keep the tools better protected. That is the proper
expression of this emotion.

With Bin Laden, I just keep cool. I don't allow anger to eat at me.
But I retain the anger, as a quiet mental resolution, that justice
will some day be done. Thus the anger is made  manageable, and does
not interfere with anything. But the purpose of this anger will
still be fulfilled, with his elimination. Because I know that this
is the purpose of this anger.

I think excessive forgiveness is weakness. The society that can not
punish crime, can not keep order.

I don't expect others to dismiss emotions the way that I can. It is
a learned art. There are various emotions that we Vulcans learn to
handle, and it is a very useful tool. I sometimes ask, do I want
this emotion, or not? What good will it do me? I consider it my
privilege to override some emotions. But not without due
examination of the question of the essential validity of the
emotion. Like if I am the victim of an injustice that needs
correction, I will not dismiss the emotions that warn me of this.
But I will dismiss emotions caused by, for instance, an insulting
remark made by a person not qualified to make that remark, when it
need not be taken seriously. And I will dismiss the garbage of one
lifetime, and not take it with me to the next.