I was just wonderinger if anyone knew any sources that don't believe in reincarnation and hell.. The reason I want sources that don't believe in hell, is because it worries me w/o reincarnation there could be heaven/hell only for eternity.. Well, that's what I'm paranoid about ..

Plus, reincarnation just doesn't sit well with me.. IT doesn't make sense either.. So, please don't try to change my beliefs..  I already got my beliefs on a loving God that doesn't make us do it all over again and again.. With karma attached to us.. I believe in a loving God that never created hell and never judges or punishes us.. Man punishes himself.. Reincarnation is probably a mix up from our oneness with everyone and everything.. Like this one guy in his near death all of a sudden became a dog, baby, old man, and a fish.. They didn't tell him this is what he was in other lives.. They were just showing him that we all are connected to one another..

p.s. I don't want sources like atheists... They don't count.. Since, they don't believe in the next life..
peace

Hi Briggs,

  I can identify with your exception to reincarnation as I still struggle with the karma issue...for the same reasons you do I think...if God doesn't sit in judgment of us then why we would have to attone for mistakes? Perhaps that it is denial or rationalization that enables me to accept reincarnation without the karma  ;D I am laughing at myself here.

My suggestion is to enjoy the beliefs you have and focus on the now. Don't worry about whether or not there is a next time here or somewhere else (another planet or physical reality).

I do believe that for me, seeing the complexity and wonder of all the things that may be possible like reincarnation and that we are all One, expanded me somehow...to not focus on material gain and all the drama that goes on...but to instead focus on love and friendship. I am sure there is more than one way to reach that point, but that is what helped me along the way.
I am not trying to change your feelings or guilt you or anything like that, in my own way I am trying to say that it is perfectly fine not to believe in reincarnation. Be in the now.

Love,
Michelle

briggsanddurlacher3, Your beliefs in a loving God??? Who told you God was going to be loving?

The Roman Catholic Church taught that this was the one and only lifetime that we live---- and until the dying last breath we may repent and be accepted into God's heaven.  According to John Michel Greer (The New Encyclopedia of the Occult)  <The rise of Christianity, with its insistence on eternal salvation or damnation after a single lifetime, forced the idea of reincarnation into an underground existence.> As I recall: All human beings are born with original sin (the sin of Eve who ate the forbidden fruit) and MUST be baptized to wash away the original sin. Those who are not baptized will end up in  limbo and never be worthy of sitting with God.  Those who are baptized and on committed venial sins (lesser sins) must go to purgatory to repent and suffer for those lesser sins until God says that the punishment is now "paid in full", then they will enter into God's heaven and feel his glory, but will never be worthy of seeing his face.  Those who committed mortal sins (the most horrendous crimes against humanity) will go directly to hell and suffer for all eternity and will not receive God's forgiveness.  Those who are pure of heart and have sincerely repented before their last breath, will be able to see Jesus and walk with him, but will not be elevated to holiness to see the face of God.   In the Catholic church--- this is the one and only lifetime we have.  We were told to believe in the Trinity: God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Ghost (now called the Holy Spirit).  The three are one and the same, just as when you light three separate candles --- you have three flames. When you hold the three candles together in one hand, the flame is now one.  We are only worthy to recognize Jesus and "feel" the Spirit and understand that we are in God's presence.
That is not my opinion---it was what I was taught.  I never accepted this teaching, but the discipline was a necessity for seeking the truth.  

hawkeye wrote on Jul 16^th, 2007 at 2:04pm:

briggsanddurlacher3, Your beliefs in a loving God??? Who told you God was going to be loving?

God is love enuff said..

peace

Brigg:

This is my response on another thread. Perhaps you've seen it.

What you're asking basically leads to the issue of "does reincarnation work as commonly believed?"

It may be that reincarnation happens at an I-there/disc level.  One larger self sends out many incarnations, and each incarnation is a self in its own right. After meeting his I-there (as described in his third book),  Robert Monroe was told that his I-there has existed for "many" years. He stated that he didn't remember. He was told that he wouldn't, because he didn't exist. When it became time for his I-there to incarnate again, the right mixture of ingredients were put together in order to create his incarnation.

Bruce Moen wrote something similar in his third book, even though he tends to express the viewpoint that selfs/probes do incarnate more than once. He was told that he was created as a retriever probe. The right mixture of ingredients were put together to create his current self.

Thomas Sawyer's near death experience states the same thing. He states that only about 5% of Soul incarnates in the physical. The ingredients for an incarnating self can come from a prior lifetime, previous lifetimes, and even other Souls.

When Ron Kruger had a near death experience he met his previous lifetimes which were still alive and abiding in a state of oneness with each other in the spirit World. They didn't incarnate along with his current self.

If I have interpreted the messages I received from spirit guidance correctly, a self "doesn't" reincarnate over and over again. Rather, different smaller selves from a larger self incarnate throughout various time periods in a manner that isn't strictly determined by linear time.  

If you consider what I wrote about Monroe, Moen, Sawyer and Krueger above my interpretation makes sense, because how could the evolutionary goal of the common viewpoint of reincarnation be implemented on an individual-smaller self basis, when new selves are created in order to meet the goals of a larger self?

Mendel mentioned Michael Newton's books. Michael Newton wrote that sometimes a Soul will have more than one incarnation take place at the same time.  If this is true, what happens when each smaller self returns to its bigger self? Which personality characteristics are maintained? There is liable to be some contradictions.  If personality development works in the manner commonly believed, it wouldn't be possible to reconcile the divergent personality traits of two returning selves and the Soul fragment that stayed behind in the World of spirit, because personality traits aren't worked out so easilly (By the way, dave a mbs has found different results than Michael Newton when he does hypnotic regressions. He has stated that Michael Newton provides a lot of suggestions when he hypnotizes people. This can be seen if you read his third book.).

There is another factor to consider.  Some people use the term Soul group rather than Disc/Over soul/Higher Self/I-there/Monad.  It is possible that they receive information in this way because not everybody is ready to accept the disc/oversoul etc viewpoint. Even when a person writes about the soul group viewpoint, it is understood that group members share their incarnational experiences with each other.  Some have written that this sharing is done completely. The fact of this negates the need for a particular self having to incarnate many times. It learns from its disc/soul group members. Plus, there are ways to learn in the spirit World that don't exist here. Supposedly, there are many spirits who never physically incarnate.

Another factor to consider, if people have to get enlightened while in the physical as the Bodhisatva viewpoint suggests, then where are all the takers? I became interested in Eastern teachings about 26 years ago, and I found that there aren't a lot of enlightened people walking around. At this rate we'll all be reincarnating forever. On the other hand, many near death experiencers have found that much of their spiritual selves are recovered during their NDE. This was my experience during a night in heaven experience I had. I instantly went from being a certain that there is no such thing has God, Christ and afterlife, to understanding for certain that these things do exist.

When people do past life regressions, it is possible that the lives of disc/soul group members are tapped into, rather than a smaller self that reincarnates over and over and over and over again.  Carried over injuries suggest that this is the case. For example, in his first or second book, Bruce wrote about retrieving a prior self named Joshua. Bruce had a liver disease in the exact same spot Joshua was wounded with a spear. After Joshua was retrieved by Bruce, he had his injury cured. Resultantly, negating the need for Bruce to incarnate with a physical disorder, if reincarnation is thought of in the commonly believed way.  Joshua is another part of Bruce in a disc sense, not in a smaller self that reincarnates over and over again sense.

I believe there could be some exceptions. If a self is really unhappy with its past lifetime, it might choose to incarnate again.  There also might be occasions where Souls reincarnate for service purposes.  

But don't take my word for it.  

P.S. You can go nutty trying to figure out this sort of thing. It's really tough while here in the physical. Welcome to the club of the beffudled.  

Briggsanddurlacher3, My comment was made to cause emotion. Of course there is God. A loving God. Of heaven and hell, they are created by man and the church to put the fear in you. It makes it far easer to control you. There is no hell nor heaven except the one you can decide upon experiencing to enable yourself to further move along the path of knowingness and love. I would not expext a advanced soul such as yourself to make the choice of re-experiencing the lower  life forms IE plant, bugs. ( if that they are lower is excepted) I agree with you that we are all connected. Plant, animal, human, etc. As for your belief that there is no reincarnation, that you will have to wait and see. Perhaps you won't reincarnate. You may not have the need. No God will punish you, nor forgive your perceived sins. Only you have that right. If God is love, perhaps we are all god?    

hawkeye wrote on Jul 16^th, 2007 at 6:41pm:

Briggsanddurlacher3, My comment was made to cause emotion. Of course there is God. A loving God. Of heaven and hell, they are created by man and the church to put the fear in you. It makes it far easer to control you. There is no hell nor heaven except the one you can decide upon experiencing to enable yourself to further move along the path of knowingness and love. I would not expext a advanced soul such as yourself to make the choice of re-experiencing the lower  life forms IE plant, bugs. ( if that they are lower is excepted) I agree with you that we are all connected. Plant, animal, human, etc. As for your belief that there is no reincarnation, that you will have to wait and see. Perhaps you won't reincarnate. You may not have the need. No God will punish you, nor forgive your perceived sins. Only you have that right. If God is love, perhaps we are all god?

Great post my friend! I see what you mean now.. Also, I have the same beliefs about you about heaven/hell are man made.. All there really is God and love that are real on the otherside..
Everything else is just an illusion.. I believe God doesn't punish us either and we are own rule makes just like Neale Donald Walsch says in his conversations with God books..

After reading recoverer's beliefs on what he got from his information on reincarnation.. I think reincarnation makes sense now.. Plus, after reading that info.. I think I am stuck on my belief on reincarnation.. I think it maybe possible.. Let's say right now I'm undecided about reincarnation...

peace

I understand that some people have a hard time conceiving the concept of reincarnation; however, if you think about it, the universe doesn't require people to mentally conceive anything, to work.  In the end, the universe works, and that is that.  The fact is, thoughts and thinking represent a small fraction of all-that-is.  Therefore, I would reason that it is unreasonable for us to think that we can truly fathom the depths of existence including all the natural laws contained in the framework of existence, utilizing this thought-tool (our brain) we were born with.  Essentially, it is possible that reincarnation is akin to electricity or magnetism in that it is simply a natural "law" of the cosmos.

In many esoteric religions, not only is the doctrine of reincarnation often taught, but so is the concept of karma.  In fact, these two concepts are closely related.  Like the word God, the word karma too, has likely been misconceptualized.  Karma means action; cause and effect.  Karma has absolutely nothing to do with, "God punishing us for our actions," and everything to do with us being responsible for our actions - that is to say, we are the creators of our actions.  The fallacy is to equate karma first with physical actions or deeds, since our actions or deeds are no less than the direct result of the inner-actions of our mind - of our thinking.  This is the main principle behind karma, it is a word to describe the thinking action of our mind.  For example, if I believe that I am the "king of the castle" I would invariably treat others based on my belief.  As a result, I would generally illicit a feeling of annoyance in people that I interact with; and they would act accordingly.  So it is easy for us to see the external manifestation of this one belief a person could hold about themselves - but it originated from within and not from without.  

Now thoughts have tremendous momentum, and certain thoughts are lodged within our subconscious mind. Thoughts, furthermore, mold our perception of the world.  The concept behind reincarnation relies on the many esoteric-belief-systems which stipulate that the realm of thought, or thought-based perception is not the primary reality, pure unbounded awareness is.  Moreover, because people are disillusioned by thinking, they are disillusioned with the primary nature of existence which is "isness" beyond death and birth.  Due to this disillusionment, the belief is that, like a thought being born and then vanishing, so too will we do the same (be born and die) because we are destined to ride the wave of our karma in this grand cosmic game.  That is, until we transcend the illusion or non-primary aspect of existence, and reclaim our cosmic identity of pure consciousness.    

Quotes Mattimo:
"the universe doesn't require people to mentally conceive anything, to work."
"The fact is, thoughts and thinking represent a small fraction of all-that-is."

I don't agree here, because we must considerate that everything, including natural science, is in our minds. The theory that we have on the one side a non-thought universe, on the other side thoughts, is just not logical. So, "the universe" is always "OUR universe", the universe we have in mind.  We cannot make assumptions what the universe would be like when there's nobody there thinking about it, we cannot know this.

Spooky

I can agree with that Spooky, but I think maybe that what Mattimo was getting at is that only a small part of mind activity involves conscious conceptual thought.

One of the objectives of slowing/stilling thought through meditation for example is to allow this other sort of intuitive seeing and knowing to come through - it's in Buddhism for example reckoned to be the source of wisdom and compassion.

There's also the view that it entails a direct perception of the total reality, and provided our fear or prejudice don't intervene as is usually the case consequently a true seeing. Unlike concepts which in fact are only mind made models we to use as building blocks in logical thought. But a concept is not the reality, only a simplified approximation to it built on certain assumptions. Which often don't hold true.

Add to this our tendency to  extract a few bits of data from what we perceive (whether external or internal mind objects), and on this sketchy evidence to jump to the belief that a concept applies and we're suddenly far far from reality. Useful in many survival situations (hmmm - wonder if that's really a hungry lion???) but not so good in others.

For example your wallet goes missing. You think back, figure out this shifty guy walked through the office and before you know it you've imagined up a whole scenario. And then you go home and find it in another pair of pants....

Yes, true, I would like to live more in the "let the right things happen", easily, without much planning and elaboration, it's a thing I guess must be cultivated with patience like a delicate plant.

This question about the mind and the physical is an old topic of western philosophy and might seem to be boring, as it is old and often repeated. However, to keep in mind this basic-logic conclusion that everything is in our minds, can be important for meditators, as that is exactly what is bridging western logic thinking to eastern intuitive-meditative sort of "knowledge", or way to exist.

Spooky

Quote:

Plus, reincarnation just doesn't sit well with me.. IT doesn't make sense either..

i think it's the only thing that does make sense..  what would the purpose of babies only living to be 3 years old be if it was their only life?   and why would God only give you one chance at greatness?

Seeker is right. one go around is not enough here. and one more thing is if a soul has been in high places with money say, it always wants to experience being perhaps a beggar in another life. These are all valuable soul experiences. if the mountain is there, the mountain climber just says he has to climb it. maybe more than once, but each life has it's value; the bible says god sees the sparrow fall. that means we have order in the universe.
but we dont have to repeat our mistakes in a life, so cheer up you guys. :)

the_seeker, It is my beliefe and as explained to me by "The All" durring a Gateway expearence that we are all here to do one thing. Give. Give of ourselves. As explained through a dead tree to me, only through the sacrifice of giving will we ever move onward to a higher plane. (It had given its life to assist the growth of a vine.)Sometime living a lifetime of only a few days gives the being the time needed to live all the life experiences needed this round. The life given up by dying might be the sacrifice given to move the parent on to the higher level. I was told that there is a purpose for all of the most horrilbe of life experiences. Some of which I would not mention here. All have a purpose. Only the perpetrator will have the right to decide if the acts was wrong, evil, or the sort. Only that person will decide if there is a "Hell" to experience because of the actions. Also that sometime the person who is acted upon negatively, made the decision to experience these things before comming back to have a new life. That these experiences are their sacrifice and their means of attaining a higher level of being.  

recoverer wrote on Jul 16^th, 2007 at 6:04pm:

Brigg: Mendel mentioned Michael Newton's books. Michael Newton wrote that sometimes a Soul will have more than one incarnation take place at the same time.  If this is true, what happens when each smaller self returns to its bigger self? Which personality characteristics are maintained? There is liable to be some contradictions.  If personality development works in the manner commonly believed, it wouldn't be possible to reconcile the divergent personality traits of two returning selves and the Soul fragment that stayed behind in the World of spirit, because personality traits aren't worked out so easilly (By the way, dave a mbs has found different results than Michael Newton when he does hypnotic regressions. He has stated that Michael Newton provides a lot of suggestions when he hypnotizes people. This can be seen if you read his third book.).

 While i tend to agree with you about Newton's 'leading' of people, he's not the only source to talk about the concept that a Soul/Disc/Total self etc., can and often does have more than one self in the same space/time cycle.

 Both Moen and Monroe also talk about this, both from a theory viewpoint, and also both claim it from an experiential viewpoint...  which personal experience seems to be the most powerful catalyst to believing or rather knowing something as 'true' or not (most of the time, for most people?).  

 I also have personal experience with this.  Many years ago, i asked a psychic about my unusual and somewhat baffling connections with a young man about my age, and i was told he was a "psychic twin".   At the time, this made no sense to me.  We weren't close and didn't know each other well, but there seemed to be a mutually powerful pull.

 However, after moving from that area and not ever seeing him in-physical anymore, i would continue to occasionally dream about him, and wonder about the intense connection i felt towards him.   I seemed to also know via dream state of his death, a couple of weeks before i found out he died in an automobile accident.   A couple of weeks before i found out he had died, i had had a dream about him out of the blue, wherein he had just moved into a dorm/community like setting, and he seemed really happy, and i was very happy for him.  

After coming upon Moen's, Monroe's, and Newton's info, i came to understand and deeply believe that this person was part of my immediate Total self/Disc.   I also understand now, that there are various major "levels" to this whole Disc concept/Archetype thing.   There is our immediate Disc/Total self, and then 7 other groupings which are ever more expanded and all inclusive in nature, much as Moen talks about in his 4th book--the most expanded level or viewpoint being that of the Planning Intelligence, or what i call the Christ Consciousness.

Interestingly enough, this young man shared many major personality characteristics and talents with me, and we even looked a bit alike.   He was quite artistic, pretty intelligent, more psychic than the average (especially for a male), strong personality but also gentle, deep thinking and feelinged, etc.  
One of the major differences seemed to be that he chose to remain in a more self destructive pattern longer than i had.  I stopped drinking, trying drugs, hanging out with the wrong people, etc. where as from what i can tell, he continued this pattern except that he was more responsible and stable in the job area, which is something that i have lacked until somewhat recently.  Perhaps this continuing self destructive pattern is part of the reason of why he or his (our?) Total self decided it was time for him to exit out of physical?

 But i suppose that in the long run, it doesn't really matter one way or the other, we're all connnected and One, and its only the universal application which fosters real soul growth towards this truth.   A bit easier said than done while in the physical, at least i've found, but hey we'll get there.

p.s., i will try to get back to your p.m. tomorrow.
 

ahso - moen's talk about the "disc" etc. just confuses me.  michael newton's "soul group" info was easy to understand...   i see that one soul can live multiple earthly lives at the same time, but certainly all members of the soul group are other individual souls?  ahh moen can be confusing.  

I think maybe one way of considering this oneness thing, is in our essence, we are connected mind to mind, as in telepathy and heart murmerings.

yet there are branches of the higher self, fingers, like probes into physical reality, which is not the whole of reality. these fingers are lives, the differences being we have personality, we wear personality to generate our identity, our penchant for individualism, in a positive way we gather experience through self expression. In a negative way we can attain too much selfish outlook, forgetting we are all one and competing with others for one upmanship. its all a learning experience the way I see it, that we must get back to love, to priorities, the quicker the better for all.
each life seems to add to the disc, each personality remains identifiable and valid within the disc, safe from the fires of having to burn off dross once it makes its way back to the heart of god from whence it came.
dross is to mean anything that does not look like love within a belief system.

I'm still working on my thought system but things are looking better these days.
love, alysia

Ahso:

I believe a disc has numerous selves and some of them incarnate during the same time period.  When Newton wrote about similtaneous incarnations, I don't believe he was thinking in disc terms. I believe he was thinking in conventional terms. One clue is that he states that it is difficult for a Soul to handle two to three incarnations at a time. I don't believe this is true with a disc.

Yes, and I think Monroe had the I/There (disk) in mind when he emphasizes on how great we are in truth and what possibilities we have.

Spooky

  I think you are probably right about that Recoverer.  Now that i think about it, i didn't get the sense that Newton believed in a Disk/I-there type concept, and i do remember him stating that he thought having multiple lives in the same space/time would probably be a 'drain', whereas i agree more with you--i don't think it would matter, or rather it wouldn't be too hard for a Total self/Disc to do.

Spooky and Ahso:

I believe your discs would have a hard time handling multiple incarnations, but not mine.  ;)  ;D

I'd say that my disc is the biggest disc on the block, except I had a dream one time, and my disc took up an entire block all by itself.

Your disk might be bigger, but mine is faster...

Fellas!  Fellas!
:D

Bets

Are we talking disk size? Ha ha!

Aren't they all connected anyway? It doesn't matter, right?

love, blink :)

Hmph! Seems to me like Spooky has a case of disc envy.  ::)