As we all know, Christians are HUGELY homophobic. In fact,
"God and Gays" has become a byword for the conservative
Christian agenda here in America. (One wonders whether
they protesteth too much, considering the Haggard scandal
and all that noise.)
Ironically, Christianity ends up easily backed into the situation
of DEFENDING homosexuality!!! How, you ask?
Consider the case of a little boy who gets cornholed by his pastor
(or his priest, more likely.) To enter heaven, the little boy has to
FORGIVE the pervo pastor/priest! Yes indeed, the pervo has an
easier task, in that to be fully saved, he need merely ADMIT HE
WAS WRONG. But the little boy has to WANT GOOD THINGS TO
HAPPEN TO HIS ABUSER (i.e. forgive his abuser!) before he can
escape spending the rest of eternity being cornholed with flaming
pitchforks! His abuser gets it EASY - but our young victim has to
DO VIOLENCE TO HIS OWN VERY NATURE, BY FORGIVING SOMETHING
WHICH IS FRANKLY UNFORGIVABLE - simply to avoid eternal
torture!
*So, as you can see - Christianity is A PRO-GAY RAPE religion!*
*Christianity FAVORS, AND DEFENDS, gay aggressors!*
*Just so long as it isn't CONSENSUAL, faggery is A-O.K. in Christianity.*
(It shouldn't be too much of a surprise, really. Ever notice how "poofty"
Jesus is always made to look in religious artwork???)
Isn't this HILARIOUS?
Or rather, wouldn't it be hilarious if this scenario
wasn't happening EVERY DAY here in America..! Check THIS
out:

http://www.normantranscript.com/localnews/local_story_277001903

And Christians claim to be anti-gay? (Or maybe it's just an Oklahoma
thing..?)

B-man

I don't know about all this Chumley but heres a spiritual view:

true forgiveness releases the pain of the ordeal from the victim; it does not release the perpetrator from his own guilt. forgiveness has nothing to do with "wishing good will come to the perpetrator." Forgiveness places power in the hands of the victim to have the deed not to effect the victim in any way, shape, or form forever more as if it didn't happen.
its a different story for the perpetrator though. True forgiveness brings the perpetrator to his knees. spiritually speaking. Without the victims forgiveness this soul will advance not at all. however even after attaining the forgiveness the perpetrator must learn to forgive himself before advancing. many do not. many do and spend much time making up for the deed.

also in many cases a perpetrator of any crime will be taken back to a fabricated scene, and made to switch places emotionally with a guide who role plays the victim. the perpetrator is made to feel everything the victim felt until they understand why this was not a good idea. this is with hardcore repeat offenders, it usually works to make them change. in any case the victim is set free.

Christians are just individuals.  we cannot lump them all into the same category.

Enough of this Christian bashing, Chum.  Enough!  I am sick of it.  It is wrong, misinformed, misdirected and serves no good purpose.  You have a love hate relationship with christianity, but mostly, you are afraid of the afterlife as you understand it, if it is based on your warped presuppositions about christianity and a vengeful creator.  Well, at this point, after trying to convince you in the past where you err, I must say - STOP.

Your takes on what it is to be a christian are just plain wrong.  Evil doers are not absolved of their wrongdoings just by saying sorry or admitting their deeds.  Most scholarly christians reject the "faith alone," doctrine, that those who profess belief in God but act horribly will not earn a ticket to paradise simply for their fath without action.

Alyssia is correct in what she said about forgiveness too.

Molestation of an innocent child ranks among the worst acts of perversion and violence in my book.  Your warped inference that this is somehow condoned by the 2 billion christians of the world is vile, and just plain wrong.  You prefer not to understand what Jesus means about loving your enemy and forgiveness.  That's ok.  If your preference is to stoke the fires of hatred toward evildoers, you have a lot to learn about spirituality, my boy.

One can understand the virtues of love of one's fellow human beings, but still believe in law and morality on the earthly plane. Those who committ atrocities should be held accountable for their actions in our society, through law and justice.  In the spiritual planes, the molestor's actions will cause him to judge himself, and put himself among other's of his kind.  Such is the law of karma.  Is it wrong to practice the christian ideals of mercy, compassion and forgiveness coming from the victim?  I don't think so.  Read Allyssia's response again.  These values do not absolve the molestor of one bit of his crime, but they do allow the innocent victim the ability to move on.

You can not tell us, Chumley, that after dozens of conversations like this on Bruce's forum, that you don't understand these basic facts.


Doc

Enough of this Christian bashing, Chum.  Enough!  I am sick of it.  It is wrong, misinformed, misdirected and serves no good purpose.  You have a love hate relationship with christianity, but mostly, you are afraid of the afterlife as you understand it, if it is based on your warped presuppositions about christianity and a vengeful creator.  Well, at this point, after trying to convince you in the past where you err, I must say - STOP.

Your takes on what it is to be a christian are just plain wrong.  Evil doers are not absolved of their wrongdoings just by saying sorry or admitting their deeds.  Most scholarly christians reject the "faith alone," doctrine, that those who profess belief in God but act horribly will not earn a ticket to paradise simply for their fath without action.

Alyssia is correct in what she said about forgiveness too.

Molestation of an innocent child ranks among the worst acts of perversion and violence in my book.  Your warped inference that this is somehow condoned by the 2 billion christians of the world is vile, and just plain wrong.  You prefer not to understand what Jesus means about loving your enemy and forgiveness.  That's ok.  If your preference is to stoke the fires of hatred toward evildoers, you have a lot to learn about spirituality, my boy.

One can understand the virtues of love of one's fellow human beings, but still believe in law and morality on the earthly plane. Those who committ atrocities should be held accountable for their actions in our society, through law and justice.  In the spiritual planes, the molestor's actions will cause him to judge himself, and put himself among other's of his kind.  Such is the law of karma.  Is it wrong to practice the christian ideals of mercy, compassion and forgiveness coming from the victim?  I don't think so.  Read Allyssia's response again.  These values do not absolve the molestor of one bit of his crime, but they do allow the innocent victim the ability to move on.

You can not tell us, Chumley, that after dozens of conversations like this on Bruce's forum, that you don't understand these basic facts.


Doc
*****************
Well, think about THIS one, Doc...
I don't have to point to a BOOK, to demonstrate that
molesting boys is wrong.
How many Christians would say FIRST, that "the Bible
says so!" as THEIR reason that forced sex is not
quite "the thing to do"? I'd say a lot of 'em. Pretty
lame, if you can't come up with something more
compelling than that.
Could it be, that since Christians can be FORGIVEN
by their sky-fairy "god" if they utter a simple magical
spell ("the sinners prayer") or attend confession
and spill their guts to a confessor (who just may be
a bigger perve than they are! Who else would want THAT job?)
that maybe, just maybe - the more perverted ones will feel NO
compunction about molesting boys left in their charge? After all,
they've got a spiritual "blank check." They have been basically
immune to earthly consequences until VERY recently (no-one dared
even imagine a CLERGYMAN could be a pervert!) AND they are safe from divine retribution as well, as long as they jump through Christianity's
legalistic, letter-of-the-law "hoops".
SO...
Tell me then, that Christianity isn't a fundamentally SICK, EVIL,
and BARBARIC belief system. I dare you! (I agree that not all
Christians condone child molestation. Of course they don't! But
their RELIGIOUS TRADITION does so, in SPADES...)

B-man

P.S. The "faith alone" doctrine is DOMINANT in America, Doc - if
not the world.
Most of my arguments concern AMERICAN Christianity. And you must
admit that even as (modern) Americans are perhaps the biggest lunkheads on the planet collectively, their collective belief system
(basically, Literalist Christianity!) is also the lunk-headedest. Hence
the popularity of "faith alone" with Americans, and why I rail
against this doctrine. (Tell me that finding a "scholarly Christian"
in America ISN'T like finding a diamond in a mountain of coal!)

Chum,

Are you an athiest? I get very negative vibes from you. You sound like a very angry person inside. I am new here and this is the 2nd post I have read of yours that has left me speechless. I am a christian and I can tell you that all Christians do not believe exactly what is written in the bible. I believe in God and his great works. But I believe that certain areas of the Bible are not exact and some are very misinterpeted by many people. Being a Christian does not mean we live exactly according to the Bible. If you have your faith in God and live your life to the best you can with love for one another and helping each other along the way, that is all God wants from us. Love and peace, and then we go on to the other side to continue what God wants us to do there. It really sounds like you need to get some help for your anger and some better information so that you can find peace within yourself.

Love and peace to you Chum

Chum has a particular sense of humor which stretches the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. There are many people who use humor in this way. He is really not unique in this, and it is popular to make fun of all kinds of things and people in this way in our modern society in the United States.

Those who take him seriously are really missing the point. He is looking for the reaction, and that is the fun of it for him. Honestly, I don't believe it is negative. I think it is a "mission" that he is on with a particular zeal and his own personal stamp of expression.

I will say that there are times when his "mission" becomes a little distorted by his own beliefs and some aggression does filter through, enough aggression to make many people uncomfortable.

I suppose the important thing to consider might be: does this lift you up or does it bring you down? You can feel it in your center if you pay attention.

Do you "react" to his statements or do you simply state your own milder opinions, for which his words give a "background" ideal for making almost anyone else's words resonate loudly with truth?

love, blink :)

Your take on Chum's approach is intriguing, blink.
Are you saying he's like the black velvet background of Elvis etc/pop
paintings against which any color looks good?   :)
(Or did we do this analogy about a year ago?)

Bets

Bets, I think that is an excellent illustration!

Yes, black velvet makes the colors really "pop out", doesn't it? That style of painting was hard to ignore!

love, blink :)

wrote on May 24^th, 2007 at 10:56am:

Chum has a particular sense of humor which stretches the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. There are many people who use humor in this way. He is really not unique in this, and it is popular to make fun of all kinds of things and people in this way in our modern society in the United States. Those who take him seriously are really missing the point. He is looking for the reaction, and that is the fun of it for him. Honestly, I don't believe it is negative. I think it is a "mission" that he is on with a particular zeal and his own personal stamp of expression. I will say that there are times when his "mission" becomes a little distorted by his own beliefs and some aggression does filter through, enough aggression to make many people uncomfortable. I suppose the important thing to consider might be: does this lift you up or does it bring you down? You can feel it in your center if you pay attention. Do you "react" to his statements or do you simply state your own milder opinions, for which his words give a "background" ideal for making almost anyone else's words resonate loudly with truth? love, blink :)

Very astute remarks on B-man Blink, who is one of my favorite characters here precisely because of his outspoken manner. I would only add to say to B-man, this subject matter that you bring up, it is very important to you, right?
It is as if this has been your very own experience.
I feel at liberty to discuss child molestation as I was a victim myself. I witnessed a miracle transformation of the perpetrator at the age of 14, 4 years after the last degrading encounter. it is painful to talk about such things, but I feel we must. We must not be afraid to try to change our society and so I am at liberty to help any whom this has happened to, if I can.  No, he wasn't a priest or religious figure as I suspect may have happened to you, but a father figure, and the same kind of betrayal of trust was experienced the same.

Let me say one thing I learned: perversion can be turned around by the participation of Spirit/God. These kind of animal acts are perpetrated by very young souls. They have much to learn. We do not all have the same number of lives under our belts. we don't have to believe in young versus older souls to view that there is always someone out there more advanced spiritually than yourself, or more talented, or seems to generate more spiritual power and intelligence than yourself; so we all seem on spiritual tiers, or degrees of evolvement.
I suppose at 14 I was displaying mediumistic talents, to let my ego step aside and something happen which changed the situation forever and released me from the pain of having to deal with his perversion.

It was exactly as I said it was. a power reversal. I was now held in perfect esteem by him, but this happened thru me, not of me. I called it later my Dead Preacher guide aspect which redeemed the man thru grace, forgiveness, setting my own self free. accepting the power that was within me.

I feel it all had some meaning slightly beyond my capacity to understand. I spent many years trying to put words around this miracle of forgiveness. the word itself is ruined. many Christian words are ruined forever, tainted by the misunderstandings you illustrate for us.
the only meaning I could start from was that I had come to this planet, this life, for one reason to redeem him, or to act as that portal for DP to redeem him to grace. It had been set up so that way as his soul was ready for the break thru; our beginnings had started in another era, other bodies. this life would end our ties forever. my job was done.

btw, I'm taking credit, you bet! :) this man never molested another child the rest of his life and conquered his animal nature.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

now I just want to tell others, we can do it. we can overcome. one by one by one.

so tell us your story if you want B-man..am I wrong about you? did you get molested?
these people here will understand if u give them half a chance.

its time to regain our personal power by not letting these things happen.
love, alysia

LaffingRain wrote on May 25^th, 2007 at 3:36am:

[quote author=blink link=1179979307/0#5 date=1180018598]Chum has a particular sense of humor which stretches the boundaries of what is socially acceptable. There are many people who use humor in this way. He is really not unique in this, and it is popular to make fun of all kinds of things and people in this way in our modern society in the United States. Those who take him seriously are really missing the point. He is looking for the reaction, and that is the fun of it for him. Honestly, I don't believe it is negative. I think it is a "mission" that he is on with a particular zeal and his own personal stamp of expression. I will say that there are times when his "mission" becomes a little distorted by his own beliefs and some aggression does filter through, enough aggression to make many people uncomfortable. I suppose the important thing to consider might be: does this lift you up or does it bring you down? You can feel it in your center if you pay attention. Do you "react" to his statements or do you simply state your own milder opinions, for which his words give a "background" ideal for making almost anyone else's words resonate loudly with truth? love, blink :)

Very astute remarks on B-man Blink, who is one of my favorite characters here precisely because of his outspoken manner. I would only add to say to B-man, this subject matter that you bring up, it is very important to you, right?
It is as if this has been your very own experience.
I feel at liberty to discuss child molestation as I was a victim myself. I witnessed a miracle transformation of the perpetrator at the age of 14, 4 years after the last degrading encounter. it is painful to talk about such things, but I feel we must. We must not be afraid to try to change our society and so I am at liberty to help any whom this has happened to, if I can.  No, he wasn't a priest or religious figure as I suspect may have happened to you, but a father figure, and the same kind of betrayal of trust was experienced the same.

Let me say one thing I learned: perversion can be turned around by the participation of Spirit/God. These kind of animal acts are perpetrated by very young souls. They have much to learn. We do not all have the same number of lives under our belts. we don't have to believe in young versus older souls to view that there is always someone out there more advanced spiritually than yourself, or more talented, or seems to generate more spiritual power and intelligence than yourself; so we all seem on spiritual tiers, or degrees of evolvement.
I suppose at 14 I was displaying mediumistic talents, to let my ego step aside and something happen which changed the situation forever and released me from the pain of having to deal with his perversion.

It was exactly as I said it was. a power reversal. I was now held in perfect esteem by him, but this happened thru me, not of me. I called it later my Dead Preacher guide aspect which redeemed the man thru grace, forgiveness, setting my own self free. accepting the power that was within me.

I feel it all had some meaning slightly beyond my capacity to understand. I spent many years trying to put words around this miracle of forgiveness. the word itself is ruined. many Christian words are ruined forever, tainted by the misunderstandings you illustrate for us.
the only meaning I could start from was that I had come to this planet, this life, for one reason to redeem him, or to act as that portal for DP to redeem him to grace. It had been set up so that way as his soul was ready for the break thru; our beginnings had started in another era, other bodies. this life would end our ties forever. my job was done.

btw, I'm taking credit, you bet! :) this man never molested another child the rest of his life and conquered his animal nature.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

now I just want to tell others, we can do it. we can overcome. one by one by one.

so tell us your story if you want B-man..am I wrong about you? did you get molested?
these people here will understand if u give them half a chance.

its time to regain our personal power by not letting these things happen.
love, alysia
*****************
No, I was NEVER molested. But I had one friend back in high school, who was raped as a 5-year-old (penetrative anal rape) by his father, who was a police officer.
When his mother found out what daddy/Officer Cornholio had done, she reported it. Daddy killed himself (I guess he knew that child-raping disgraced cops aren't very high on the prison inmate food chain?) And a few years later, my friend's older brother, who'd also been molested, shot himself at the age of 18 and is now, 25 years later, a drooling, semi-comatose heap of gangrene in the back ward at my state's mental hospital. (He wasn't as good a shot as his daddy was, I guess...)
My buddy was ALWAYS getting into trouble (no surprises.) But he really
wasn't a bad sort... more like he didn't have any common sense. Perhaps you're familiar with the type? I recall that he wanted to be a cop, like his daddy. (He told me about this ambition before I found out the REAL story about that father-son relationship. His mother told me about that after the event I'm about to relate below occurred.) Anyway...
Cut to 1987. My friend has stolen a motorcycle, and is in our state's juvenile facility. A mutual acquaintance of ours (who my buddy had been hanging out with a lot prior to going to juvie jail) has sort of "moved in" with my friend's mother, and his two little half-sisters. It isn't long before this "friend" is spending a LOT of time with these girls (ages 6 and 10.) He babysits all over town, BTW... good at getting parent's trust I guess. I wonder how that is. Why?
I NEVER trusted this guy - I know him to be a thief and a liar, and he's an ingratiating, smarmy type of guy. But most people seem to be taken in by ingratiating, brown-nosing smarminess. (Ever notice that most politicians are like that?) My buddy sure is "taken in." He calls this guy a "good friend." His MOTHER, practically considers the guy a second son! EVEN I AM STARTING TO WONDER IF THE GUY IS SO BAD AFTER ALL. Look how he's helping my buddy's mother fix up her house, ect.!
UNTIL...
This dude rapes the 6-year-old, giving her HERPES in the process. Turns out he'd been diddling her for months and scaring her into not talking, before he decided to "go all the way." Explains why he was around their place so much, huh? (A 6-year-old girl with genital herpes! Truly a sign of the existence of a loving and caring God, eh???) BTW, the guy IS arrested and charged, but does a total of THREE MONTHS IN THE COUNTY JAIL, UNDER PROTECTIVE CUSTODY. After that, he's free as a bird. Still is today!
Enough about him though. What became of my buddy?
Within a few months of his being released from Juvie, he burglarized
a house (on a dare!) with the owners present, got caught and ended up with a 10-year sentence. After 4 years, he was on parole briefly, but was soon back with the "in crowd." This time, it was stealing a car...
Last I heard, he was doing 25-to-life in Washington State. (Theft of explosives from a construction site, I think it was. A couple of Canadians talked him into it, or so the story went.) Anyhow, at this point he's spent well
more than half his life behind bars. I guess he's found his home, so to
speak...
Don't you just love happy endings?
So no, I was never molested. But the issue has hit close to
home, shall we say...
(NO THANKS to any putative Invisible Fairy(s) In The Sky, might I
add..?)

B-Chumster

hey there Chumley, thanks for coming back at me. no, theres no punative fairys around here that I know of!

from where I'm coming from it's not Christianity or any religion or even a traditional belief or non belief in god per se, that is our problem with the kinds of things you just discussed.

you are one pissed off dude for sure but we can't blame this on god. god did NOT create this world...we did. the egos of men rule this world and the ego, like unto an animal, can be vicious. the things you talk about don't surprise me or shock me at all.
the only god I know of is when folks get together and as a collective, make something happen. united we stand, divided we fall. I guess I'm political rather than mystic.

you've heard a rumor life is an experiment here?
although we couldn't remember wanting to be here, we have either become like a prisoner here, or go for the freedom. It takes an entire lifetime to be free.
I studied the holocaust many years. thats even more vicious than what you described in your post, as this was like trying to kill out a whole race of people!
they darn near succeeded. you can bet the people were asking where god was.
I don't have the answers you seek. I wish I did. I wish I could just help one person to feel better about being on this planet. maybe if everyone just did one nice thing for another,  it might catch on.
but thats all I have to say here, that we need to cooperate with one another to change things, as it's up to us. not up to god, who is not a man. JC knew already this place is a joke, its not real, all he wanted was us to own our powers of discernment that this place is not the truth of our total being and we can turn it around.
essentially, you and I are holograms of our real selves, going thru the muck of it all for the experiences good or bad; but you have to do it yourself, you can't get anything done unless you start the work yourself, on yourself. because one person can effect many, if you get my drift.
now thats my pep talk..take it or leave it. I'm a little pissed myself, but instead of railing against whatever, I changed it into self determination which allows more of the good things about life to filter through.

and someday there won't be any religions, but there will be peace. hope you're still alive when it happens to see for yourself.

hey chum.  i didn't read all this thread, but i just wanted to say i've known wonderful christian people and horrible christian people.  you can't really judge someone by the religion they follow.  a lot of muslims are peaceful, but the terrorist ones give them all a bad name.