I respect Patty [Tempestinateapot] and regret her departure from this site.  I thought you might  be interested in this repost of a segment of my debate with her on another site.  

Tempest, you claim, “The almost unanimous conclusion is that people "see" either who or what they expect.”  This consensus reflects New Age bias and is refuted by more careful research such as the massive cross-cultural research of Osis and Haraldsson on 1,000 NDEs from the USA and India:  

“The phenomena within each culture OFTEN do not conform with religious afterlife beliefs.  The patients saw something new, unexpected, and contrary to their beliefs....Several basic Hindu ideas of an afterlife were never portrayed in the visions of Indian patients. The various Hindu `loci’ of an afterlife--Hindu Heaven--were NEVER mentioned.  Nor were reincarnation or dissolution into Brahma (“At the Hour of Death,” 192-93).”

[Tempest: ] “In cases of other religions, rarely does someone who has an NDE see Jesus.  They will see the leader of their own religion, i.e. Buddha, Krishna, etc.”
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This New Age cliche does not stand up very well under close scrutiny.  I heard an NDE expert on “Coast to Coast” discuss research on over 3,000 Asian NDEs, including many Buddhists.   Not a single case reported seeing Siddartha Gautama (the Buddha) during the NDE.  Also, in Islamic NDEs, the BL (= Being of Light) is rarely identified as Muhammad.  True, there are a few minor exceptions that prove my point. P. W. Atwater points to a couple of Muslim children who claim to have seen Muhammad during their NDE.   I am unable to discover a single case of an adult Muslim who identified the BL as Muhammad.   Other NDE research may produce such examples.  But obviously, many alleged NDEs are full of hallucinations.  So it is the pattern of appearances of religious figures that is most relevant.  Even here, there are striking exceptions.  In another post, I have recounted the story af a Christian-hating Muslim who was converted to Christianity by his unexpected encounter with Christ during an NDE.  
 
[Tempest:] “The point of all that is that in all of my readings, the general consensus is that while people may "believe" they are seeing Jesus, they are actually seeing a "being of light".
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You forget that in Bruce Moen’s case, it is his astral guide who reports on the real Jesus’ role in supporting retrievals.   Why would a light being want to deceive a discarnate worker in “the House of God” in Focus 27?   Monroe’s routine encounters with a Christ figure neatly fit the description of others (e. g. William Booth) to whom the BL’s identity as Jesus is made clear. Your comment begs the question and overlooks the menacing fact attested, among others,  by Swedenborg and channeling  research that spirit impersonation is a common malevalent phenomenon in astral contacts.  The BL may not disclose His identity to non-Christians, but I doubt a loving presence like the BL would tell a series of lies.  In any case, it begs the question to assume that an NDE BL is normally the same person for everybody.

NDE researchers like Ray Moody often recklessly claim that the BL does not identify itself, but is instead subject to a projected identity from the dying. This generalization is routinely refuted by NDEs and is already refuted by the case of George Ritchie (now a psychiatrist) that inspired Moody’s first book “Life After Life”  and, indeed, the whole modern NDE research movement.  In his forward to Ritchie’s book “Return from Tomorrow,” Moody celebrates this  book as “the chronicle of one of the three or four most fantastic and well-documented `dying’ esperiences known to me.”  In the presence of the BL, Ritchie recalls: “The words came from inside me, yet they had an authority my mere thoughts never had.   `You are in the presence of the Son of God.’ (49).”  Any question about whether Ritchie projects this identity onto the BL is removed when he complains, “Why hadn’t someone told me?”  The BL’s reply clearly implies that He is Jesus: “Idid tell you.  I told you by the life I
lived.  I told you by the death I died (55).”

Your generalization is also unwarranted for 3 other reasons:
(1) Communication from the BL is telepathic rather than the result of an auditory voice delivered through moving lips.  This fact alone makes the distinction between the identity projected by the BL and the patient’s projection of a comforting identity methodologically elusive.  Though your generalization no doubt applies to many cases, it also seriously begs the question.

(2)  This ambiguity infuses non-Christian identifications of the BL as Jesus with particular relevance.   Your generalization ignores the finding I reported of the NDE researcher on “Coast to Coast.”   To repeat, he found that Jesus often identifies himself to atheists, who typically respond with a confession like “But I don’t even believe in you,”  to which Jesus typically replies, “But I DO believe in you.”     .  

(3) Your generalization is often refuted by the most in depth NDEs. which last long enough for an extensive interchange in which the BL makes its identity as Jesus crystal clear.  Dr. Ritchie’s NDE can be supplemented by several examples, but I will confine myself to 2 more.  (a) Atheist Howard Storm immediately picks up the BL’s identify as Christ: “He was King of Kings, Lord of lords, Christ Jesus he Saviior (“My Descent into Death,” 26).”  This identification is confirmed by Storm’s other communications in the presence of the BL: e. g. “In our progression toward God, we will meet the Divine Activity of God, who is known to Christians as Jesus Christ.  People who are not Christians must know the Christ as well (55).”  “No one will go to God except through the Atonement of Christ, the love of Christ, and the way of Christ (67).”  

(b) During her NDE, Betty Eadie realizes: “There was no question who he [the BL] was. I knew he was my Savior and friend and God.  He was Jesus Christ...I knew I had known him from the beginning, from long before my earth life, because my spirit remembered him (42).”  Any ambiguity in this identication is soon removed: “I was told the he [Jesus] is the door through which we will all return.  Whether we learn of Jesus Christ here or while in the spirit, we must eventually accept him and surrender to his love (85).”

These 2 NDEs independently illustrate Jesus’ role in postmortem retrievals and neither requires a formal profession of faith in Christ before death.  This mutual support is particularly impressive because few Christians are aware of the basis for this postmortem access to Jesus in biblical and early Christian tradition, which I have provided in this thread.  Jesus in effect informs Storm that He communicates to people from non-Christian cultures under different symbols and mythologies.  Tellingly, when Storm asks, “`Which is the best religion?’...They answered, `The religion that brings you closest to God (73).’”   That said, Swedenborg’s astral exploration independently confirms the NDE insights of Eadie and Storm that postrmortem instruction on Jesus’ redemptive role is a standard part of the transition of rightous non-Christians to the heavenly realms (HH #512).  In a murky and methodolgically sloppy field like NDE research, independent confirmation of unpredictable NDE insights is one the two best forms of evidence available.

Of course, the second valuable form of evidence is verification.  Betty Eadie meets her unborn adopted daughter during her NDE.   More impressively, angels (perhaps discarnate saints) save Storm from almost certain death after his NDE and a discarnate Thomas Merton hands both Storm and an independent eyewitness a book of his poetry at the Gethsemane monastery.  And no one has more impressively verified astral credentials than Swedenborg.  

Don

Don, I sense in you a conflict about NDEs and the role of Jesus.  On the one hand, you quote God as being evasive about his name and identity in the old Testament, saying to Moses "tell them I am who I am has sent you" (that is the translation I prefer).  You also quote those like Storm who ask what the best religion is and are told "the one that brings you closer to God."  In the same vein, you quote adepts like Swedenborg who equally can find that if people manifest the love of neighbor and of God that regardless of their religion, they are heaven-bound.

I have remarked on this forum how P.M.H. Atwater has quoted children as seeing Mohammed or Buddha in NDEs, describing their appearance and drawing pictures.  Dr. Atwater had personally experienced 3 NDEs and has one of the largest NDE databases in the world.

One of the best rational tests for your theory of the ubiquitous role of Jesus in NDEs would be (as I believe has been suggested to you here) to document NDEs where Jesus met someone from a culture who had never heard of him and had no real familiarity with christianity or the teachings of Jesus.  If people from foreign cultures had NDEs and came back wondering who Jesus was who they just met, it would provide powerful verification for your hypothesis.  

Essentially, you are saying that NDEs support the christian interpretation of the universe and the "I am the light and the way" passage - you are making it an exclusive heaven then.  You challenge us to show you examples of light beings who were someone other than JC, yet only those like Dr. Atwater and Moody who have access to THOUSANDS of NDEs can possibly reply to you with real data.  As I recall, you had remarked that you were going to research Dr. Atwater's cases and claims.  You chide Brendan or DaBears for not reading or researching your books of choice........is this the pot calling the kettle black?  Dr. Atwater and Moody had access to more than seven times the number of cases than the 1000 in the study you cited.  Dr. Atwater alone claims more than 4000 adult NDE catalogued cases on her website.  Consider that.

The title of this thread, "New Age misconceptions about NDEs" implies that beliefs in other encounters with light beings who are not JC are "hallucinations."  

The concept of God is, to me beyond individual identity.  Hence what Storm is told that the best religion is the path that brings you closest to God rings true for me.  I believe on a gut level that a good person, who loves his/her fellow man and God is worthy of heaven, whether they are aware of JC or not.  When Jesus says he is the light and the way, could he not have meant that by his example of love , that is the only way to heaven?  If so, it is not his specific earthly identification that is important, but the love he expressed, that we are all meant to express that is the true path to God.

Matthew

Matthew,
\
Please reread my thread and notice that your reply ignores my main points.

[Matt:] "I have remarked on this forum how P.M.H. Atwater has quoted children as seeing Mohammed or Buddha in NDEs, describing their appearance and drawing pictures."  
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Only the overall patterns need be taken seriously.   Many alleged NDEs in fact involve mere hallucinations.   Drs. Osis and Haraldsson have demonstrated this in detail.  Maurice Rawlings too has amassed a huge collections of NDEs.  But he argues that 50% of these are hellish and that negative NDEs are less likely to be reported because they are embarrassing to the patient.   As a cardiologist, Rawlings has the advantage of hearing about the hellish NDEs as they develop.  Still, other NDE researchers report fewer hellish NDEs and Rawlings' claim cannot be accepted apart from replication by other researchers.  The same is true of Atwater, whose research is not corroborated by other researchers.  In any case, I challenge you to post a Muslim adult NDE in which the BL is not merely identified as Muhammad, but even identifies itself as Muhammad.  In the most developed NDEs, the BL often identifies itself as Jesus.  For that matter, just post a Muslim adult NDE in which the patient idnentifies the BL as Muhammad.

[Matt: ] "One of the best rational tests for your theory of the ubiquitous role of Jesus in NDEs would be...to document NDEs where Jesus met someone from a culture who had never heard of him and had no real familiarity with christianity or the teachings of Jesus."
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On the contrary, I am arguing that Christ would communicate with people who have never heard of Jesus either in terms of their own symbols and mythologies or by abstaining from any self-identifciation.      

[Matt:] "You are making it an exclusive heaven then."  
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This comment is an irresponsible misreading of what my thread alleged.
I do not argue for a religiously exclusive heaven.

[Matt:] "The title of this thread, "New Age misconceptions about NDEs" implies that beliefs in other encounters with light beings who are not JC  are "hallucinations."
___________________

On the contrary, I argue against the assumption that the BL  is the same "person" in each NDE.   For example, Christ identifications are usually reported as brighter than the sun.   But in other cases, the BL is not described as particularly bright.  Different "persons" with differing statures might show up, depending on the background and spiritual level of progress of the newly deceased.

Don

Isaiah 9
2:The people that walked in darkness have seen a light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
6:  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
7: Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.  The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 42
1:  Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

St Matthew 12
17: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18:  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

St John 8
56:  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57:  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58:  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


:)

Don, what exactly is the purpose of your challange to show adult muslims or buddhists having NDEs seeing other light figures, other than Christ?  It sounds as if you doubt that these NDEs occur at all.  The inference then, would be that the being of light who meets people in NDEs is almost always Jesus, and that NDEs support the view of christianity's truth about God and the universe.  (Stop me if you disagree with these suppositions).

If you ask any person on this site to show you examples of specific NDEs, unless they are involved in research, they would be unable to comply.  You know this.  You are somewhat dismissive of Dr. Atwater despite the fact that her database is more than four times the number you cited in your far east study.  (By the way, her website states she is reading emails, and as such, I have taken the liberty to emaill her about our current debate - so be careful what you wish for, Don).  

Moses, revered as he is as a prophet and law giver, was not seen to be God.  So why should he greet Jews when they pass over?  Mohammed was a holy man, but never felt to be God incarnate.  If a muslim has a NDE, while he/she may see Mohammed, there would be less of a reason to identify the figure of light with Mohammed (since Mohammed never was thought to be God).  The same is true for the Buddha. Despite this, we are told that these figures are encountered in NDEs.

Jesus was considered to be God incarnate, and indivisible from God, even when manifest as a man.  Therefore does it not make sense that he may be identified more frequently by Christians and Muslims?  Don't forget that Islam accepts Christ's teachings as a representation of God, though they may not see him as God incarnate.  There are 1-2 billion Christians on the planet and more than two billion Muslims by report.  All revere Christ in their holy books.  Is it any wonder that as a personal manifestation of God, people of these faiths encounter Jesus in NDEs?

I am open to the possibilities, but I think you make judgements based on incomplete information.  Atwater and Moody's documented data encompass close to 8000 NDEs, dwarfing any other database on record.  You have not reviewed their cases, and are not therefore equipped to make sweeping generalizations about who is or is not encountered in different cultures.  

My challange to you stands; that is show me one, just one "noble savage," who is not schooled in Knowledge of JC (muslims are), who has a NDE and brings back an encounter with JC or the son of God (or any other suitable appellation from historical sources).  Failure to do so will support the very New Age ideas that you love to call "misconceptions."

Matthew

Don, excuse me for interrupting your thread like this.  Scripture never ceases to amaze me in its truth and I can’t help but note this.

2 Corinthians 3

12:  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13:  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14:  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15:  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16:  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17:  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Caryn,

While I am a great believer in faith in God, and respect the teachings of Jesus, I do not believe that in the old testament we share there is a veil over the eyes of Jews when we read it (which can only be lifted by being a christian)  You and I both believe in the God of Abraham; I also believe in a God of love and a universe of love.  

On a public forum one certainly can state one's religious views unless it impugns, maligns or calls into question the validity of another's views.  No one comes to this site to have the religious beliefs of another rammed down their throat as the "real truth."


Matthew

Rightioh, i'll keep quite now - i am being quite straight.  Back to the new age (me thinks this age must finish first before the new age starts) conversation .. the new age which is really the old age .. the road of Baal, false idols, graven images of gods/goddesses .. sounding all very inspiring .. capturing the imagination into bondage ..

Take care and ciao

Don, when I read your post I felt the same things Matthew mentions.  Quite often you tell people to reread your posts implying that they are the ones misinterpreting what you’re saying when it seems to me that it is your responsibility to make yourself clear and understandable.  Ok… enough said.

I agree with what you are saying here:  “On the contrary, I argue against the assumption that the BL is the same "person" in each NDE.   For example, Christ identifications are usually reported as brighter than the sun.   But in other cases, the BL is not described as particularly bright.  Different "persons" with differing statures might show up, depending on the background and spiritual level of progress of the newly deceased.”

A while back you made some comments in regards to Swedenborg that inspired me to read HH.  Granted I’m only about halfway through it, but I must say that I am impressed.  The reason for this is that this material provides a lot verification of my own experiences.  I don’t propose to understand everything he discusses however, one thing he talks about is innocence and how in the innermost heaven the angels are naked, while in the outer heavens the angels are clothed.  He also speaks of how the interior of the angels is shown on their face.  This leads me to wonder if any specifics regarding this are seen in those who have encountered beings in NDE.  

I have not studied NDE to any great length and I’m wondering if you have come across any descriptions such as Swedenborg describes.  Also, could you explain more of your view of what new age bias is, including your opinion of where you agree and/or disagree?

Love, Kathy

in regards to this topic of the authenticity of new age NDE's? is this in question?
right. I knew that.  :)  I would just like to mention in passing a fine book called "Blinded by the Light."  a man was knocked from his body, experienced an NDE of transformation of his entire being, laid up for a year in hospital. Dannion Brinkly.
what struck me about Dannion as I read his personal account, he had been a real ass in life, yelling at people, blaming society for his troubles, he might have even kicked a few dogs for all I know, but after talking and being with enlightened beings on the other side he was told he had to come back and write and speak, a transformed man.

when he came back his hard heart had melted into grace. his marriage fell apart because his wife didn't know who he was anymore, he was so changed, she would have had to change right along with him, her patterns of relating, and I guess she couldn't as they divorced, but it wasn't his idea, as he had not a harsh word for any after his transformation and it was like being reborn.

So NDE and OBE are related experiences of a deeply personal nature. They can be transformational, make us more happy campers to be here, make us service oriented when the heart softens towards other struggling humans here, cause us to write books trying to give ourselves away, (the language is sadly dificient to communicate spiritual transformations is why I use the word trying) many after an NDE are reluctant to return to flesh, understandably so, as this flesh body requiries a lot of care and attention, being of temporary nature as it is.

I salute such as Dannion, the book is an inspiration to me as are many other books if we can but glimpse between the lines and ask spirit to guide our insight into the mere words into the truth of our journeys on Earth.

May we all find the grace that Dannion did. A man risen from the dead.

love, alysia

I'm going to take a third posture in this discussion - Given my outlook, rather predictably I wonder whether we are dealing with only one level of reality here, but are mistaking it for two or more, which means that we might be asking the wrong questions.

If we view reality as innately dualistic, where God is the Infinite Stranger,  then the various appearances of God will be at best confusing. If we assume that spirits are of the same dualistic sort, infinitely removed, or largely so, then we still are going to be hard put to understand who or what is manifesting to us because we and they are of different sorts. In that case, the arguments can rage on forever, but without resolution. Further, given no  common organizational principle, all their manifestations will be more or less chaotic - unordered in our eyes, regardless of their ultimate (inaccessible) origin.

If we view reality as monistic, starting with God at one end, as Caryn emphasizes, and continuing into the material world at the other end where we live,  we are dealing with degrees of manifestation of the Single Nature which pervades all of us. (I personally like this idea best.) Then any reference to  any of the sages, prophets, avatars etc, is somewhere along a continuum between totaly God and totally human. Let's call it a "God-vector."

Some of the various avatars and such, Siddhartha and Mohammed are good example, have totally denied divinity, yet they have manifested it by their lives and lessage. Others, Nisargadatta Maharaj and Jesus are good examples, have accepted and acknowledged their divinity. Derpending on who you speak with, Buddhists might have thoughts of Siddhartha as a divine being or as a common person. So, by espousing monism, we have a long  range of both perceived and actual Godliness as a primary parameter, with offshoots of personal expression of this Godliness according to the individuals in specific (I'm reminded of Teilard de Chardin's "tree", where the root is God and the fresh leafy shoots are you and me, more or less.)

If proceed along the "God-vector" from everyday human diferences, we eventually see these differences vanish as everything turns into a singler God-locus, which is the point of origin of the "God-vector".  

Personally, I feel that as we approach the God end of the line, we encounter more beings of the sort that are identifiable with Jesus. This does not necessarily mean that they are specifically the same previously-human-but-now-absorbed-into-God Jesus. However, at the God end of the vector we do find the Christ into which we presuamably are asorbed.

A sidebar here - By Christ is meant one of the three aspects of God. There is the substantive and obdurately enduring aspect which we call "God the Father" because it is the essential nature from which all arises. There is the logical ature that ties together and makes rational and true the and in that sense, is the Mediator, which we usually call the "Holy Spirit". The third aspect of God is the projection of "beingness" into the mundane world which we call the "Christ". This role is adopted by avatars such as Jesus and by yogis, sinats, prophets etc who follow the same route of "carrying their cross" by progressively  abandoning the perks and pleasures of being human, and in their place accept a "here and now" definition at the pleasure of the whatever God tosses at them.

In this sense, everyone who manifests the Christ is a "Son of God". I think it was St Paul who put it when he met with some apostles,"I know ye all, all Sons of God."

Now we get into the question of whether all Sons of God are Jesus, at least in the figurative sense of being the personal name given to a state of oneness with God,  hence equally well known as one with the Christ. Or is Jesus the "one and only", to which no others are alike, in which case the Jesus to which we refer has retained human attributes by which he stands out and is identifiable,  To me, the discriminable and unique personification called Jesus must then mean Jesus-the-man, as opposed to the projected Christt, or Jesus-as-God.

I happen to be a Radical Monist, I suggest that all the saints and avatars of all religions of all planets and galaxies are identical to the Son of God, and that Jesus is one of that group. Thus, despite birth, creed, nation or whatever, all resolves into the same undifferentiated state at the God end of the vector, and into individual actors like us at the other end. (And, because I'm Very Radical, I suggest that the only difference between you and me and God is a matter ofawareness and acceptance. As a simple supporting argument, what else could we say about an avatar saving the arachnoid populace of Star Beta-4 of the M47 galaxy? From that, the rest follows.)

This argues with Matthew's idea that Moses was not a "Son of God", because it places him along the God-vector at the God end, or very close to it. As Bishop Berkeley argued, there has to be contact for there to be intereaction. I also place Mohammed there (despite the evident misunderstanding that led to mullah's ruling by Sharia and Hadith instead of rational monotheism). And, I place everyone else who has a divine revelation at the same general end of the God-vector.

Given all this preliminary BS, I suggest that what we are involved in, as we try to make sense of the various apparitions, is both a degree of Oneness plus a degree of Humanness, extreme states of the God-vector. The result would seem to be a combination of these qualities assembled in the manner best suited to the individual having the experience, which means that (1) we are going to have to know a lot  more about their personal psychology to understand precisely who and what each has encountered.  After removal of the specific individuals that were claimed, we are left with a common experience that appears to be transcendental, to bring access to higher spiritual values, and to lead to good results for the vast majority.  (2) The names given to the various apparitions are very likely those that seem tobest fit the circumstances for the individual. I suggest that these arise from inability to express the experiences in a better manner. At the same time, the degree to which the experiences seem to bring the person closer to God will probably be reflected in the "Godliness" of the apparition, and in turn, will be a reflection of their proper spiritual maturity.

Aside from these rather general concepts, we may be discussing something mor like what color clothing was the avater wearing at the time of manifestation, and whether this has a bearing on the weather in the spirit world.

You guys bth have keen minds - this is fun!
PUL
d

Thanks for the thought provoking insights, Dave.  Just an FYI - I never said that Moses was not a son of God, merely that he did not see himself as God incarnate.  He maintained the duality of the I/Thou relationship.  He was a man, a prophet.

Perhaps we are all God incarnate, however, my point was to address reasons as to why Moses might not specifically be encountered in many NDEs.

Best to you, my friend,

Matthew

My error - At risk of being banal, maybe Moses doesn't happen to have a good  publicist in modern society- I hear a lot more about modern rabbis and their wisdom.
dave

I'd like to add a new perspective to the issue of NDEs. Beings in the spirit World are aware of what it is like down here. They understand it is a melting pot when it comes to belief systems. My feeling is that when NDEs take place beings from the spirit World create them for the experiencer according to what an experiencer is open to, and according to what the need of an intended audience is. Some audience members just aren't open to the idea of Jesus Christ, so perhaps for their sake an alternate viewpoint is first experienced and then shared. Perhaps this is partly what Bruce Moen's thing is about. He often appeals to loving people who for whatever reason become resistant when somebody starts talking about Jesus Christ.

In cases where people do meet Christ during an NDE, I don't believe it is fair for people to dismiss their experiences as being nothing more than the result of their believes. If you read some of them closely you can tell that they were experiencing much more than what their imagination spinned out.  I haven't had an NDE, but I have experienced a night in heaven. At the time I was an atheist, but was surprised and greatly relieved to find it is true that the afterlife exists, and that God and Christ are key parts of it. Some might say my upbringing as a Catholic is what caused me to be aware of the truth of Christ.  This wasn't the case at all, because the level at which I understood things was beyond what my "prior" beliefs could spin out. For example, not only did I understand that God, Christ and the afterlife existed, I completely understood how it was possible for them to exist without even having to think about it. It was a deep understanding that went beyond belief. At the end of the experience I saw a bright star flash to confirm the role of Christ in the greater/overall scheme of things.

I've read Howard Storm's book and he does state that it doesn't matter if a person doesn't believe in Christ as long as they live according to love. HOWEVER, he also states very clearly that Jesus Christ is the spiritual leader of the human race, and the truth of his role becomes known when people cross over (not his exact words).

This isn't something for people to become upset about.  It isn't a dictator like thing. It doesn't mean that the rest of us don't eventually become beings of love and light. It doesn't mean that there aren't other important spiritual beings. It just means that for whatever reasons there is a spiritual leader for the human race. Think of Christ as a great big brother who looks after things for us. What's wrong with that? I have humble feelings about this. If God has set things up so that Jesus Christ is the spiritual leader of the human race this is fine with me. It isn't about being a mindless subservient. It is about opening up to the glory of God and allowing yourself to be inspired by humility and grattitude in a manner that is very pleasing and is more freeing than insisting on having things be according to how your minuscule thought patterns think they ought to be. I know people like to think of themselves as co-creators, but in the end do they want to create according to their delusions or according to what is true and benefits the whole? Creating in a manner that benefits the whole is what Christ is about.

Dave:

It is interesting that you bring up Nisargadata Maharaj during an NDE disscussion. I have several of his books, used to be into him, and in more than one place he states that we experience duality only because pure consciousness occupies a body for a while. Once a person's body dies their consciousness merges with the one self. Or in other words, he doesn't believe in the World of spirit.  Therefore, he would probably think of NDEs as nothing but a hallucination. I've had too many experiences with the World of spirit to agree with his denial of it.  When he spoke in such a way it wasn't a matter of his speaking from a nondual "nothing is real" perspective.

Albert said: In cases where people do meet Christ during an NDE, I don't believe it is fair for people to dismiss their experiences as being nothing more than the result of their believes. If you read some of them closely you can tell that they were experiencing much more than what their imagination spinned out.
______


I am agreeing with you here. it is not fair to judge another's experience as not worth of another's experience in this dismissal process.
Reading something closely is what needs to be done, while suspending the judgement facilities temporarily at the least.

you can also ask your inner guidance which NDE's you need to read specifically and you can get direction that way.

Love, alysia
ok, I butted in.. :)  continue on. good thread.

[Matt:] "Don, what exactly is the purpose of your challange to show adult muslims or buddhists having NDEs seeing other light figures, other than Christ?  It sounds as if you doubt that these NDEs occur at all."
___________________________________________

An unwarranted inference!  If Muslim and Buddhist NDEs are bogus, then Christian NDEs may also well be bogus.  

[Matt: ] "The inference then, would be that the being of light who meets people in NDEs is almost always Jesus..."
_________________________

There is good evidence that Jesus identifies Himself as the Being of Light to non-Christians and atheists.  But your phrase "almost always" unfairly puts words in my mouth.  I repeat: the radiance of the BL varies and this variation may already suggest that different "personalities" appear as luminous beings to different people, depending on their background and level of spiritual development.  The actual percentages must be determined by actual case studies and not be New Age or Christian dogma.

[Matt:] "By the way, her website states she is reading emails, and as such, I have taken the liberty to emaill her about our current debate - so be careful what you wish for, Don)."
___________________

Again, your reply is replete with unwarranted aassumptions.  As hard as it may be for you to imagine, I am not simply trying to justify a preconceived perspective.  I have read NDE experts who deny that Muhammad appears as a self-identified Being of  Light to Muslims.  Many NDEs muddy the waters with hallucinatory contamination.   So as I've said, it is the overall patterns that matter.   As a mere starting point, I merely ask for ONE NDE IN AN ADULT MUSLIM'S OWN WORDS in which the BL identifies itself as Muhammad.  Period.   The BL often identifies itself as Jesus, even to atheists.  New Agers often claim that the BL identifies itself as Muhammad or Buddha.  So when an expert on Asian NDEs goes on the radio and claims that Buddha is never identified as the BL in thousands of Far Eastern cases, I simply want to determine the significance of this, given contrary New Age claims.  I merely ask for documentation in the eyewitnesses' words.  Is this not a reasonable request?   I welcome such reports from Atwater or anyone else if they are  in the patients' words!  I'm merely trying to cut through the propaganda and contradictory claims to determine the actual replicable patterns.  

The same holds true for your image about "one white crow" establishing OBEs.
Where is this "white crow?"   I believe in OBEs, but find the lab evidence alarmingly inconclusive.  One alleged success is unsatisfactory because it might be rationalized in a variety of ways, including cheating.  The "white crow" must be a replicated lab demonstration by an OBE adept with verifications that cannot be explained as ESP derived from a still living mind.

[Matt:] "...Moody's documented data encompass close to 8000 NDEs, dwarfing any other database on record.  You have not reviewed their cases, and are not therefore equipped to make sweeping generalizations about who is or is not encountered in different cultures."
____________________________________  

Again, you miss the point.   The most developed cases are the most important.  
I repeat: the very case that prompted Moody to pioneer NDE research (the TGeorge Ritchie case) already refutes his unwarranted generalization that the BL does not identify itself.  So do several other of the most impressive NDE cases like Betty Eadie's NDE.  And Moody celebrates the Ritchie NDE as one of the most compelling that he has ever encountered.
 
[Matt:] "My challenge to you stands; that is show me one, just one "noble savage," who is not schooled in Knowledge of JC (muslims are), who has a NDE and brings back an encounter with JC or the son of God (or any other suitable appellation from historical sources).  Failure to do so will support the very New Age ideas that you love to call "misconceptions."
__________________________________

Nonsense!  Why would Jesus make a claim that might upset and confuse a "noble savage" who has never heard of Him?  Besides, the historical Jesus did not confront people with a claim to be the Christ, not even His own disciples!  Instead, He waited for them to discern this through His example and gracious deeds.  In fact, Peter is the first of the Twelve to confess Jesus as the Messiah (Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16:13-17) and Peter only makes this confession late in Jesus' ministry. Jesus responds, "Blessed are you, Simon bar Jonah; for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in Heaven (Matthew 16:17)."  Jesus is "flesh and blood."  So Jesus reminds Peter that, prior to this, He has never claimed to be the Messiah.

Swedenborg (a maverick), Howard Storm (then an atheist), and Betty Eadie (then a disillusioned ex-Christian)  independently receive astral teaching about EVENTUAL postmortem education about Jesus' divine status and redemptive role.  But Jesus is a Person, not a religion.   There is no need to believe that pagan Heavens are thoroughly christianized.  Pagan heavens may be crafted to satisfy the prior expectations of loving peoples of other faiths and cultures.  

Don

Albert,
It is interesting, because Swedenborg, a devout christian was emphatic at denying the subdivision of God into different aspects (i.e. the trinity) rather than a unity.  As such, while a christian may meet JC, it is clear that being met by him is not a universal experience, and that in fact the greater picture of God is not as a trinity but as a unity.  As such, he may be a light and way to heaven for the faithful, and the love he represents may be the true path for us all to follow.  But the interpretation of some churchmen and women on this thread, has been that "Jews read the old testament through a veil," so there is a value judgement being made either indirectly or directlly that christianity is the "better" religion, if you believe that all encounter JC as an individual upon dying.

Albert, it is agreed that a person's encounter with JC should not be dismissed as a hallucination if it occurs.  Likewise, an encounter with another light being (other than Jesus) should not be discounted as a hallucination or distortion.   We should all keep an open mind.

I am hopeful that I may get a response from Dr. Atwater that would take Don to task about his mass generalizations about NDEs based on a Coast to Coast program report, without personally reviewing  individual case histories of Atwater and Moody.  The case files are there, I just need to get an answer.  I have accepted Don's challenge in trying to obtain documentation about holy figures from other major religions; I hope Don accepts my challenge in my last post to him as well.

Matthew

Doc:

Personally, I have no problem with people meeting a being of light other than Jesus Christ.  Some people meet their deceased relatives. Nothing wrong with that. I don't believe the importance of Christ's role is determined by who people meet during a near death experience. There is more to it than this.





DocM wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 4:40pm:

Albert, It is interesting, because Swedenborg, a devout christian was emphatic at denying the subdivision of God into different aspects (i.e. the trinity) rather than a unity.  As such, while a christian may meet JC, it is clear that being met by him is not a universal experience, and that in fact the greater picture of God is not as a trinity but as a unity.  As such, he may be a light and way to heaven for the faithful, and the love he represents may be the true path for us all to follow.  But the interpretation of some churchmen and women on this thread, has been that "Jews read the old testament through a veil," so there is a value judgement being made either indirectly or directlly that christianity is the "better" religion, if you believe that all encounter JC as an individual upon dying. Albert, it is agreed that a person's encounter with JC should not be dismissed as a hallucination if it occurs.  Likewise, an encounter with another light being (other than Jesus) should not be discounted as a hallucination or distortion.   We should all keep an open mind. I am hopeful that I may get a response from Dr. Atwater that would take Don to task about his mass generalizations about NDEs based on a Coast to Coast program report, without personally reviewing  individual case histories of Atwater and Moody.  The case files are there, I just need to get an answer.  I have accepted Don's challenge in trying to obtain documentation about holy figures from other major religions; I hope Don accepts my challenge in my last post to him as well. Matthew

[Matt:] "I am hopeful that I may get a response from Dr. Atwater that would take Don to task about his mass generalizations about NDEs based on a Coast to Coast program report, without personally reviewing  individual case histories of Atwater and Moody."
______________________

I am simply addressing the common bogus claim that the Being of Light does not identify itselt, but rather is identified in terms of the patient's belief system.  I have decisively refuted this claim, and so, does Moody's most impressive case.  New Agers often claim that the BL is identified as Buddha by Buddhists, as Muhammad by Muslims, and as Christ by Christians.  This generalization is patently false, but the actual pattern is not known.  Drs. Osis and Haraldsson's NDE research epsoses the disconnect between Hindu expectations and their actual NDE experiences.   The issue is what this means and what is its relevance to other religious traditions.  

Your phrase "take to task" is morally offensive.   I'm just trying to reconcile contradictory claims.   What is really needed is one book devoted to Muslim NDEs and another devoted to Buddhist NDEs.  I guess I just can't get you to actually read what i've said carefully.  I documented very impressive NDE cases in which the Being of Light claims or implies that it is Jesus.  I merely want to know if New Age claims about Muslim identifications of the BL as Muhammad actually find comparable documentation.  The NDE identification patterns are at issue and can only be determined by more culture-specific NDE research.  Jesus unexpectedly appeared to Ahmed, a Christian-hating Muslim, and converted him to Christianity.   Where does Muhammad appear as the BL to a Christian?  I have already explained why Jesus is unlikely to identify Himself as a BL to someone who has never heard of Him.

Don

It has been mentioned here, in the replies, that jesus is in charge of the human race. This
guy(jesus) reminds me of a Saddam Hussien, Idi Amin, that guy in charge of North Korea,
etc, etc, ...I mean they sit back in their palaces, sip 100 year old Brandy, live in luxury,
get worshiped by the population(mostly through fear) etc, while some of the population
suffers starvation, endures curable diseases, murder and torture, child abuse and slavery,
and the list goes on and on. I mean, why don't we vote this jesus out. After all we have
got free will? ...What a lousy job he's doing. Just look at the electorate, planet earth. It's
a friggin mess. Africa's a basket case, poverty and disease everythere, natural disasters,
and much, much, more. His resume commonly called the bible, tells us, with a wave of his
hand he can control weather, heal sickness, feed the masses, and more. Hey! Why are
we waiting???...And who voted him in in the first place? A one candidate election! Sounds
communist or fascist to me. Let's bring Democracy in and impeach this jesus. All it takes
is 51% of the voting earthly population to give him the big finger. I suggest we should
have a choice of three or more candidates with a term of no more than 5 years. Do your
job or you're OUT! Sounds fair to me....Gman.    

Don,

I believe you are a true seeker, and yet you should not feign righteous indignation at my remarks.  The title of this thread implies that New Age thought is wrong - period.  Yet you freely admit that you merely want to analyze information about Muslim and Buddhist NDEs - the final "bottom line" is not written on what different cultures see in NDEs.  You throw the word "bogus" around and seem to imply you can tell a hallucination from a real NDE encounter (funny how the bous ones are usually not encounters with JC).  You mention then as a backhanded  admission that maybe other light beings are seen aside from Jesus, but they are always duller than him (how would Muslims Hindus or Buddhists feel about this sweeping generalization?).

Dr. Atwater has stated that Buddhists report seeing the Buddha and Muslims Mohammed.  On what basis do you have to say that her 4000+ adult archives are bogus?  Why do you not accept her word at face value, when you accepted the Asian study on Coast to Coast at face value?  How do you know that your study of Asian NDEs was done properly?  How do you know there was not statistical bias or an inherent bias in the design of their study?  Have you really analyzed their data or are you just taking their "impressions" on the radio and assuming the validity of their study?

By the way, I noticed you did not comment on Augo's attack on Judaism and the Old Testament.

I will be the first to admit that I am not certian of what the outcome of these inquiries will be.  I too am a seeker and willing to change my belief system based on my experience and knowledge of the truth.  I stand firmly by all my posts on this thread.  Let us uncover together the documented cases of Atwater and Moody, if possible, and then settle these issues based on evidence, and not conjecture.  

Matthew

GMan,

The point that christians point to is not that Jesus is supposed to be making a utopia here for everyone.  It is that when the human soul embraces love, love of others and God, unconditional love, then the soul should recognizes Jesus as the light and the way to heaven.  That his example of life, forgiveness and charity is a perfect prototype for spiritual growth.  Jesus' being in charge in heaven does not mean that he personally causes or is in charge of all the suffering and injustice that occurs in the physical world.  Free will allows men to create their own injustice and savagery right here on earth.


Matthew

G-man (I think) was just being facetious. I don't take any comments here face value anymore, but you are all right in my book Doc!

its a good thread.

[Matt:] "...You should not feign righteous indignation at my remarks.  The title of this thread implies that New Age thought is wrong - period."
___________________________________________________

Even after being confronted with your refusal to actually reread me closely, you continue to mischaracterize what I actually argue.  This demonstrates your bias and requires me AGAIN  to repeat myself.  I guess I must quote myself to again address the 3 bogus New Age misconceptions discussed:

(1) "People `see' either who or what they expect."
As I have pointed out, the cross-cultural study of  Drs. Osis and Haraldsson refutes this generalization.  One might argue that Christians expect to see Jesus or God and, of course, they routinely do in their NDEs.  But I routinely encounter Christians who dismiss this identification as a misleading spirit impersonation.  It is not New Age NDE thought in general, but these 3 specific points that I challenge.  Sigh!

(2) "They will see the leader of their own religion."
This generalization needs to be justified by NDE patterns, not by mere New Age presumption or even by a few examples, especially in view of the denial of this generalization by some NDE researchers.

(3) While people may `believe' they are seeing Jesus, they are actually seeing
     a `being of light [by implication, not Jesus].'"

To quote my initial post, "NDE researchers like Ray Moody often recklessly claim that the BL does not identify itself, but is instead subject to a projected identity from the dying."  In two of the most impressive and in depth NDEs (atheist Howard Storm's  and Betty Eadie's), the BL makes His identity as Jesus clear.  Such Christian examples can be multiplied.  Indeed, the BL often makes His identity as Jesus clear to atheists!  Jesus' appearance to Ahmed leads to his cure from AIDs and even converts him from Islam to Christianity.

[Matt:] "Yet you freely admit that you merely want to analyze information about Muslim and Buddhist NDEs."
______________________  

Given the irrespoinsible New Age generalizations, I want to know the BL identification patterns that cross-cultural research actually demonstrates.  If their findings conflict with each other, someone's research is probably sloppy or even distorted by a hidden agenda.  I eagerly await Atwater's report both of her NDE cross-cultural patterns and especially of her specific example of a Muslim adult's identification of the BL as Muhammad.  This must be in the actual words of the dying Muslim.  I need to be able to correct for "spin."    

[Matt:] "You throw the word "bogus" around and seem to imply you can tell a hallucination from a real NDE encounter."
______________________________________

I repeat: dying and very sick people often hallucinate.   That is a given.  What is more important are the findings of Drs. Osis and Haraldsson about the frequency of hallucinations in the 1,000 NDEs they studied from the USA and India. The issue of what I personally deem bogus is irrelevant to my point.
 
[Matt:] "You mention them as a backhanded admission that maybe other light beings are seen aside from Jesus, but they are always duller than him."
______________________________________________________

Again, you just don't seem able to read.  I never commented on the relative brightness of Jesus and other BLs.  I merely made that point that the varying brightness of the BLs seems to indicate they may not be the same "person."
The claim that Jesus routinely appears brighter than our sun implies nothing about the brightness of potentially alternative BL personalities.

[Matt:] "Dr. Atwater has stated that Buddhists report seeing the Buddha and Muslims Mohammed.  On what basis do you have to say that her 4000+ adult archives are bogus?  Why do you not accept her word at face value, when you accepted the Asian study on Coast to Coast at face value?"
_____________________________________________

The NDE expert on "Coast to Coast" (3,000 ASIAN cases) denied that Buddha appears to Buddhists.  How many Asian cases has Atwater studied?   Even if she has discovered a few cases of Buddha appearing to Buddhists, the problem of potential hallucinations requres a PATTERN of Buddha routinely appearing to Buddhists.  The host of near-death.com claims that Muslims identify the BL as Allah, not as Muhammad and I have search both the internet and my own NDE books in vain to discover a single case of a Muslim adult identifying the BL as Muhammad.  One or two exceptions would be expected given the widespread hallucinations of the very sick and dying.  So again, the pattern of BL identifications is what matters most.  

Don

Ok, Don,

I think we have areas we agree on now, but the importance of certain statements is still not certain to me.  I agree with the statement that NDEs are not usually the manifestations of the expectations of a dying brain/mind.  The many documented books and personal journeys refute this.  I do not, however think I have ever heard on this site the idea promoted that we see only who we expect to see; only the idea that people of different cultures may have different experiences and see different light beings.  

I am uncertain of the importance of most Muslim NDEs identifying the light being as Allah, but not Jesus.  Mohammed was a man, who never claimed to be an incarnation of God.  Muslims incorporate the teachings of Christ into their faith/Koran.  If, the preponderance of Muslim NDEs end up meeting up with Allah, but not JC, I'm not certain that has different implications for the research.

My questions and criticisms stand until we can obtain a more in depth analysis of the cases.  We do not know the details of Dr. Osis and Haraldsson's studies, nor whether or not there was bias in their analysis of Asian NDEs.  Did their patients write out their experiences free-form, or were leading questions asked (etc.)?  This critical analysis of their's and Atwater's studies would be essential in interpreting the data.

Don, I think you have put a lot of thought into this area, but that until you and I or others pour over the data we are still making assumptions and generalizations.  The danger behind these generalizations was illustrated in this thread with the connection by one participant of scripture from their beliefs to imply that the old testament of Judaism was an inferior revelation of God seen through a veil - and that the appearance of Jesus to non-christians substantiated these beliefs.

Matthew

Dear all

I really do need to take a break and leave you all in peace!

Before I go if I may just say - I think you all great, you are wonderful people and in the push and pull of internet talking I think this forum does pretty well in communicating to one another.

Matthew; you were totally right to say what you said about the ramming down the throat part,  I have always appreciated honest comment : you just have to say it straight!  I was no attacking Judaism and the OT, please for one minute do not think that (although it is not my words in the NT) the way I see it is it is not an attack it is pure love - if you noticed St. Paul said through Christ the Gentiles receive judgment - he didn't say Judaism receives judgment through Christ - that is a huge statement.  He is saying the sacrifical lamb in the OT has become Christ - for you.  And in my case, being a gentile, I think receiving judgment is awesome - it is our check and balance, we can only grow through this.  

Dave wrote a great post and in this; we need to understand the personal psychology of what each person has encountered.  What's been happening here from my perspective is - I have a deep love for Christ (nothing unusual) and I was so surprised and confused when I realised other people don't (that much) couldn't understand it! Why don't people love Christ (!) - so everytime someone said something against this, my love for Christ gets deeper and this came out in my communication.  And in turn everytime I said something it brought more of the against in the same manner - so really it's like a dog chasing it's own tail - instead of us all not thinking why it blooms but it just blooms.
This is my personal pyschology point of view; I'm not saying I'm the only one who talks about Christ.
We are all in this World together - and we should bloom as naturally as we can without hurting one another.

Alysia; when I said that to you after you said that to Don - I was shocked and that was my reaction - everything I say and do weighs on my conscious and you know those are just words flung out.  I would dearly like you and Don to become friends.

I have deleted that awful post under the Sun topic - Ralph again my conscious - I get freaked out about things being put down your neck; to me it's not right you don't need it - my point of view of course - but you are individually yourself - why do we need aliens to do this - can't understand it!  

And now I've said my piece I leave you with a song - oh and Aries can't let the month go by without saying happy birthday to Aries!  It's quite long but if you've got the time to read it I hope you enjoy it.

Is it getting better
or do you feel the same
will it make it easier on you now
you got someone to blame
yes its
one love
one life
when it's one need
in the night
one love
we get to share it
as usual baby you don't care for it
did I disappoint you
leave a bad taste in your mouth
you act like you never had love
and you won't need to go without
well its
too late
tonight
to drag the past out into the light
we one but we not the same
we get to carry each other
carry each other
have you come here for forgiveness
have you come to raise the dead
have you come to play Jesus
to the lepers in your head
did I ask too much
more than I got
you gave me nothing its all
I got
we hurt each other
and we doing it again
you say love is a temple
love is a high
you ask me to enter
then you make me crawl
and I can't be holding on to
what you got
when all I got is
one love
one life
when you should do what you should
we one but we not the same
we get to carry each other
brothers and sisters
one love

u2 - one love  :)

Keep well everyone - will pop in and say hi every now and then
Love and peace.
Caryn

Ps:  Chum - God needs you come on b-the-man!

::)

Dr. Atwater has just been gracious and kind enough to reply to my queries on NDEs.  I found her answer to be enlightening (especially regarding Muslim NDEs) and will print her response here as soon as possible.


Matthew

Gman:

You want Jesus to mow your lawn for you too?

If a person opens his or her life to Christ he or she will receive help. It isn't forced on anybody. Christ isn't responsible for the way the World is. He's not going to guide us like a bunch of puppets.  "Some" people behave in the manner they do because they don't live according to love, which is what Christ is about.

I've had experiences with Christ that couldn't possibly be duplicated by the people you named. The only thing you show when you write such a "thing" is that you haven't taken the time to seriously consider the matter. You just looked for somebody to throw eggs at.

What's the "G" stand for? Gullible? You accepted the first answer your ego based mind threw at you?





Gman wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 9:29pm:

It has been mentioned here, in the replies, that jesus is in charge of the human race. This guy(jesus) reminds me of a Saddam Hussien, Idi Amin, that guy in charge of North Korea, etc, etc, ...I mean they sit back in their palaces, sip 100 year old Brandy, live in luxury, get worshiped by the population(mostly through fear) etc, while some of the population suffers starvation, endures curable diseases, murder and torture, child abuse and slavery, and the list goes on and on. I mean, why don't we vote this jesus out. After all we have got free will? ...What a lousy job he's doing. Just look at the electorate, planet earth. It's a friggin mess. Africa's a basket case, poverty and disease everythere, natural disasters, and much, much, more. His resume commonly called the bible, tells us, with a wave of his hand he can control weather, heal sickness, feed the masses, and more. Hey! Why are we waiting???...And who voted him in in the first place? A one candidate election! Sounds communist or fascist to me. Let's bring Democracy in and impeach this jesus. All it takes is 51% of the voting earthly population to give him the big finger. I suggest we should have a choice of three or more candidates with a term of no more than 5 years. Do your job or you're OUT! Sounds fair to me....Gman.

As I mentioned earlier, I had emailed Dr. PMH Atwater, one of the most prominent researchers in NDEs, who along with Raymond Moody had perhaps the largest amassed database on NDEs in the world.  I focused in specifically on our discussion/debate, and Don's challenge to describe Buddhist or Muslim NDEs in which their religious leaders appeared to the dying.  I prefaced my introductory letter to Dr. Atwater with the comments that I believed Don to be a sincere seeker, a man of faith and quite erudite.  I have received this initial response, due to her kindness and willing to help out in our discussion:

(I have written to thank her for this response and I did pose a few further questions in a subsequent email, the results of which I would be happy to share if she deems it appropriate)


All of my cases are confidential, as with other researchers, and this man knows that.  That is why he is making this particular type of challenge.  He knows you cannot answer his challenge, unless through your own work.  Allow me to offer this, instead.

The most common components of near-death experiences are the out-of-body experience and the light.  There are many other components, but these are the most typical - both to adult and child experiencers - and have been throughout time and what we can know of this in recorded history anywhere in the world.  That light is not always experienced as a light being; many times it is the light itself as a loving and intelligent presence, and quite alive.  The scripture of all the religions and sacred traditions in the world allude to, talk about, and try to describe this light, since it is as commonly experienced in religious and prayer life as with near-death experiences and other transformative shifts in consciousness.  This is undisputed.

Where arguments arise amongst various peoples and groups is over the interpretation of that light and any form it may take, and how to regard it.  Scientists say it is endorphins; Muslims say it is fantasy; religious fundamentalists of any "stripe" say it is Satan (Lucifer); people of faith say it is either of God or of emissaries of God; the experiencers themselves say it is pure ecstasy, love incarnate; those who receive "revelation" are more specific about the light and its various aspects (clearly, there are three main types of light seen:  primary light, dark light, bright lightŠŠŠ.refer to my book "The New Children and Near-Death Experiences" or to my website, the Eight Fliers, there is a chart in that section on the three lights).

Numerous experiencers see figures and forms in the light.  These are variously described as angels, guides, guardians, light beings (beings made entirely of light), religious figures, high holy ones, often kids call them "the people."  Deceased loved ones usually  appear in the light.  This can include pets or other types of animals.  Descriptions of these "appearances" will, for the most part, stay true to how they were experienced by the individual involved.  Sometimes, overtime, that individual will add to or alter what was seen to correspond with the beliefs of others, the beliefs of culture, the constraints of language.  For the most part, though, the vast majority of individuals will remain consistent overtime and not distort original narratives.  That means, accusations of New Age jargon, religious prophesy, Christian visions, Western indulgences, or the like, are not only untrue but cannot be associated with either the individual or what happened to the individual.  To say that a near-death experiencer, for instance, is simply spouting off New Age nonsense is utterly false.  It is true that those who report being greeted by religious figures will usually associate that being with either the religion of their youth or one they are familiar with.  Thus, most Christians will report being visited by Jesus, Buddhists by Buddha, and so forth.  However, there can be mixups.  Refer to "Beyond the Light" and the case of Jeanie Dicus.  She was a Jew yet she was visited by Jesus.  This so surprised her and confounded her that she promptly challenged Jesus, and continued to do so throughout her near-death experience, saying:  "I don't believe in you.  Why are you here?"  Of note, atheists report the same type of visitations as do religious folk.  In other words, you don't have to believe in anything to be surprised at what you find when you die or nearly die.

It is striking that child experiencers tend not to mix up racial skin tones as do adults.  Example:  most Western children that I am aware of see Jesus as light brown, not white.  It is the adults who see Jesus as white.  Where this situation gets fascinating is when you invite experiencers to draw the high holy one/religious figure who visited them.  To a person, you cannot tell the difference between a drawing from the state of Wyoming and one from Thailand or Israel or Russia or China or Nigeria.  Patterning holds; differences in patterning only concern a few details of dress and behavior.  That's it.  Whoever the holy one is, that being is held in great esteem and experienced as awesome, sacred beyond sacred, above and beyond anyone else.  That is, unless the individual experienced God.  The Light of God, God Itself, the Presence of God, well, now, that's a different story.  If the individual has a sense of Deity, there simply are no words to encompass or express what that feeling is.  I have tried to in "Beyond the Light," but really, it's impossible to do so.  All I can say is, for myself and to this very day, I still tear up when embraced by the Presence of God I experienced during my third episode, back in 1977.  That Presence and the passion I feel for It has fueled my steps since then, and is the very breath I breathe.

In seeking stories from near-death experiencers, bear in mind that today, more than in the past, the various religious groups tend to be rather protective of their faith's dogma.  For instance:  in the Muslim faith, visions and experiences like near-death are considered blasphemy.  Even if a Muslim had such an experience, nine chances out of ten, he or she would never admit to such a thing - usually out of fear.  I never encountered any problem with Muslims during most of my research experience; I do now.  They clam up when I broach the topic.

I hope this explanation helps you and your group.  Treat the dissenter with respect, knowing that this information and any other information you could provide, even actual experiencers who meet his requirements, will not satisfy him.  An individual with a closed mind cannot perceive nor accept "open doors."

Many blessings, PMH

www.pmhatwater.com
http://pmhatwater.blogspot.com
www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5670A8CDE40DAD2B


(Note I, Matthew have taken the liberty of underlining her critical comments regarding the Islamic culture and sharing of NDEs in the Muslim world.


Matthew)

my undying gratitude to Doc for contacting PM Atwater. I have read one of her books and would like to read more, she has a bunch of books to read. I really like that she has such balanced, left to right logic going on in her book. I do believe she knows what she is talking about and I highly reccommend her books to all seekers.
but thanks to Doc :) I now have 3 of her websites bookmarked! yay!
Doc, you amaze me for doing this for this board..I would never have thought to bring in an author like this.

Everything is perfectly clear to me now. I feel a great weight lift off my heart. I'm rather emotional about this board and I agree with her that when we, newbies or oldies but goodies here try to tell our experiences, we too are protective, so protective are we, that the least resistance to what we try to share can shut down communication entirely insofar as this field of consciousness exploration.
Have seen it happen over the years.

Now I feel we can express ourselves, and I came to this conclusion a while back, we can be self expressive and share as we wish according to our perceptions, and we can welcome each other in that spirit.
again, thanks Doc with all my heart http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/myspace2/myspace4/eye1.gif

Fascinating - her web site is worth visiting too
dave

Regarding what Atwater wrote, I don't get the feeling that somebody like Howard Storm was simply experiencing his interpretation of the light. If you read his book he is very clear about meeting with Christ. I do believe it is important to understand that Christ is more than the body that visited the earth about 2,000 years ago. Regarding others, as I suggested before, I believe there are lots of beings of light.

recoverer wrote on Apr 13^th, 2007 at 3:00pm:

Regarding what Atwater wrote, I don't get the feeling that somebody like Howard Storm was simply experiencing his interpretation of the light. If you read his book he is very clear about meeting with Christ. I do believe it is important to understand that Christ is more than the body that visited the earth about 2,000 years ago. Regarding others, as I suggested before, I believe there are lots of beings of light.

I totally agree with you Albert. Not only that I feel that you and I are beings of light. And also everyone I meet I see light in them to the degree I see light in myself and so i don't feel I am separate from anyone in that sense. I think that love for one another gets the darkness to recede so we all are these shining beings underneath our belief systems.

sure, I'd like to rub elbows with personages of great light but I like the people around me too just as much so I don't need to go find these beings. hmm, I'm off topic I think. :)

yes, Christ consciousness is much bigger than the form of JC.

[Atwater:] "All of my cases are confidential, as with other researchers, and this man knows that.  That is why he is making this particular type of challenge.  He knows you cannot answer."
_________________________

Atwater's comment exposes her as just another dogmatic New Ager who makes unwarranted and unkind assumptions, which in themselves call her work into question.   "This man knows that" [her NDEs are confidential]?  A c onvenient way to avoid crtical scrutiny.  I own several books that reproduce NDEs in the percipient's own words and naturally assumed that Atwater was also free to quote them.   NDEs can also be reported anonymously.

[Atwater:] "Most Christians will report being visited by Jesus, Buddhists by Buddha, and so forth. "
____________________

Notice carefully what Atwater does not claim.   She does not even allege a single example of the BL identifying itself as Buddha to an adult Buddhist or as Muhammad to an adult Muslim.  By contrast, the BL often clearly identifies itself as Christ to Christians, atheists, and, in my limited research, even to a dying Jew and Muslim.  

But do dying Buddhists project a Buddha identify on to the BL?   The NDE expert on "Coast to Coast" cited 3,000 Asian cases which Buddhists never projected this identication on to the BL.   So Atwater's claim here is of dubious value without specific examples and with no acknowledgement of how many Buddhist NDEs she has catalogued.   In any case, what is decisive is not what the dying Buddhist projects, but what the BL actually claims about its identity.  

[Atwater:] "Refer to "Beyond the Light" and the case of Jeanie Dicus.  She was a Jew yet she was visited by Jesus.  This so surprised her and confounded her that she promptly challenged Jesus, and continued to do so throughout her near-death experience, saying:  "I don't believe in you.  Why are you here?"  Of note, atheists report the same type of visitations as do religious folk.  In other words, you don't have to believe in anything to be surprised at what you find when you die or nearly die."
________________________

This Jewish case strikingly parallels my Muslim example of the Chrstiian-hating Ahmed's unexpected encounter with Jesus, his resulting conversion, and Christ's healing of his AIDs.  And as Iive noted, Osis and Haraldsson's study finds that what Hindus experience in their NDEs does not fit well with their religious preconceptions.

[Atwater:] "Where arguments arise amongst various peoples and groups is over the interpretation of that light and any form it may take, and how to regard it.  ...Muslims say it is fantasy; religious fundamentalists of any "stripe" say it is Satan (Lucifer)."
_____________________

Atwater's lack of success in interviewing Muslim NDE cases is offset by many such cases reported by other researchers.   And as I've reported, the host of near-death.com has found from his research that Muslims identify the BL as God (Allah) and not as Muhammad.  Can this be explained on the basis of cultural bias?  Hardly!   3 arguments weigh against such an inference:
 
(1) Even Atwater admits that people of one faith can be shocked by an unexpected encounter with a BL, who identifies itself as Christ!  
(2) Despite the fact, that most conservative Christians identify the BL as Satan, Fundamentalists who experience NDEs are routinely and convincingly assured by the BL that it is Christ Himself.  
(3) So the excuse that dying Muslims don't expect to be greeted by Huhammad just doesn't wash.   In NDEs even deceased loved ones often appear as luminous beings.

So far I feel totally vindicated in the theses I defend in this thread.  But the nore I research NDEs, the less impressed I am with its quality and scope.  As I've said, we need several massive studies of both Muslim and Buddhist NDEs that poses better questions.

Don

Thanks for your comments Don.  I was priveleged and pleased to get a response from Dr. Atwater -  one of the giants who has extensively and actively researched NDEs in detail.  Incidentally, she is coming out with an NDE comprehensive book called the "Sourcebook".  I have asked her, humbly if she would consider giving me anonymous descriptions of Islamic or Buddhist NDEs. I will absolutely respect her wishes if she feels that due to confidentiality issues, she can not share any.  However, several issues you raise merit clarification:

Firstly, Dr. Atwater said only recenty has she had trouble interviewing her Muslim patients.  If you read her post again, during her initial lengthy research, she had no such problem, and had documented Muslim patients' NDEs.  How many saw Mohammed and which specific cases, I simply can not say.  You should at least acknowledge the fact that she has seen cases of this type - she has said it on several occasions.  And don't give me the "its the pattern that is important, not a few cases" speech, as at times, we have to take what we can get from those who have done the research.

Incidentally, why does it seem so telling to you that Muslim NDEs may describe the BL more as Allah, and not Mohammed?  Mohammed was a man, and their main prophet, and was, according to Dr. A. named in instances of NDE.  But if Allah was named mostly and not Mohammed- so what?

Secondly, you and I have always agreed on this thread about NDEs coming up with independent, at times unexpected results.  If that was the main point of your thread, then really you and I were never in disagreement.  I completely agree with your statements that beings of light do not always correspond to what a person expects - the whole NDE appears to me to be a unique epiphany for the person experiencing it.  

What I do disagree with (and this may not be your idea) is the notion that we can draw firm conclusions about the validity of a religion by the frequency in which its main light being appears to people during NDEs.  You have stressed, time and again that Jesus appears to nonchristians, but to your knowledge, no other light being crosses the boundaries that way.  Don, what is your main point behind constantly restating this?  I don't want to misinterpret you, so tell us, please.

By the way Don, I consider you a friend on this forum, and find these discussions most stimulating.  I hope you see our discourse in the same light, as for me it is a form of shedding light on important topics and learning from each other, and outside sources (such as Dr. Atwater).  

Matthew

[Matt:] "Incidentally, why does it seem so telling to you that Muslim NDEs may describe the BL more as Allah, and not Mohammed?  Mohammed was a man, and their main prophet, and was, according to Dr. A. named in instances of NDE.  But if Allah was named mostly and not Mohammed- so what?"
___________________________________________________________

"Allah" is the Arabic equivalent of the biblical Hebrew term "El," which simply means "God."   Identification of the Being of Light (= BL) with "God" seems virtually universal, but the significance of this remains unclear.   Christians, for example, would often use the terms "God" and "Christ" interchangeably due to their doctrine of the Trinity.   Also, God and God's representatives Ie. g. angels) are often not clearly distinguished in Judaeo-Christian tradition.  

Your question just inspired a simple but stunning thought: I'm aware of several cases in which the BL identifies itself as Jesus, but I know of no NDE in which the BL directly identifies itself as "God."   This august identification truly does seem to be a projection from the patient.   I'd be interested if anyone here can come up with an example of the BL directly claiming to be "God."   I suspect that the BL generally mediates an experience of God's presence, regardless of whether it is technically just a divine representative.

I believe that Jesus often appears as the BL to both Christians and non-Christians alike.  Jesus' recently mentioned appearances ot to a Muslim, a Jew, and many atheists are just some examples.   Apparently, the earthly Jesus did not overtly claim to be the Messiah even to His closest followers until they discerned His Messianic identity spiritually.   I see no raason why Jesus should reverse this practice in His NDE role as the BL.    Consider the case of loving  people of integrity who, for whatever reason, never believed in the divinity of Christ.   It might be a harsh shock to suddenly be confronted with their error.  

I am partcularly impressed by independent verification of astral insights.   Swedenborg and the NDEs of people like Betty Eadie and atheist Howard Storm independently confirm that Christ's majesty and atoning ministry will eventually be confirmed to righteous non-Christian souls in a postmortem school.  But they are only lovingly enlightened when they have adjusted to the next life and are emotionally ready for this surprise.   This means neither that they are sent to a Christian heaven nor that they must abandon their earthly religion.   Jesus is a person, not a religion.

Besides Jesus, other light beings might greet the newly dead, depending on their background and level of growth towards PUL.  The circumstances under which Jesus shows up incognito to pagans cannot be settled on dogmatic grounds and must be determined through rigorous analysis of NDE case histories.  

I have often heard New Agers claim that the BL is identified as Jesus by Christians, as Muhammad by Muslims, as Buddah by Buddhists, etc.  My research suggests that this claim is factually incorrect, or at least, a great exaggeration.   You rightly press the question of what is at stake if I am correct.   The question of whether Muslims and Buddhists are heavenbound or hellbound cannot be expressed in sweeping generalizations.   As I have often documented on this site, the Bible teaches the possibility of salvation apart from formal profession of faith in Christ.  

The issue is the postmortem role of Muhammad and Siddartha Gautama (the Buddha).  For a variety of reasons, it is questionable whether the Buddha ever existed.  If he did not, then the genius of Buddhism is inherent in the many nameless Buddhist mentors from the early history of this movement.  Still, if Siddartha Gautama neve existed, he can't be expected to show up as the BL!   If he did exist, the philosophy oor mataphysics of Buddhism might preclude his acceptance of the BL role.  

Clearly, Muhammad existed, but from my study of his life and the Quran, I have concluded that he was a violent and temperamental prophet.  I can prove that the Quran's portrait of Jesus was ripped off from bogus Christian infancy Gospels composed from the late 2nd to the 5th centuries.   Modern scholarship is unanimous that these Infancy Gospels are historically worthless.   If Muhammad never identifies himself as the BL, I suspect this is because he is not worthy of this role in the same way that Jesus or perahps other "ascended masters" are who serve as the BL.  

But my more basic reply to your question is twofold.  (1) Jesus is clearly as major a player as any named figure we know in the postmortem transition.
(2) The BL might be more than one figure.  (3) It is wrong to claim that the BL does not identify itself, perhaps because it is simply our higher self.  The BL often itelepathically identifies itself as Jesus.  I simply don't know whether the BL also telepathically identifies itself as other discarnate beings, human or angelic.   I consider NDE research to be seriously flawed and in its infancy stage, despite the fact that it is also absolutely thrilling and inspiring.

Don

Don:

I haven't come accross an NDE where a being of light identified itself as God, but I have come accross NDEs where people first meet Christ as a being of light, and then meet a being of light that has more light than Christ.  Who do you suppose such a being of light would be? Such a meeting is sometimes followed by an experience of cosmic consciousness where a person experiences everything that exists both manifest and unmanifest just as God does.

I don't believe it is necessary for a person to be told that the being of light they meet is God. What they understand inwardly is much more certain than what they can understand by being told. When I had my night in heaven experience I wasn't told about the existence of God and Christ. The knowledge was just there. Just like an experience of love is there without being told.


[quote author=Berserk link=1176353717/30#36 date=1176504433][Matt:]
Your question just inspired a simple but stunning thought: I'm aware of several cases in which the BL identifies itself as Jesus, but I know of no NDE in which the BL directly identifies itself as "God."   This august identification truly does seem to be a projection from the patient.   I'd be interested if anyone here can come up with an example of the BL directly claiming to be "God."   I suspect that the BL generally mediates an experience of God's presence, regardless of whether it is technically just a divine representative.

Albert,

The question of relative astral brightness is complicated by the possibility that, as we raise our vibration and ascend to higher heavenly realms, the brightness we perceive increases.   I have read NDEs in which members of the greeting party offer to tone down their brightness for the NDEr's comfort.  So relative brightness may not always signify spiritual stature.  But I do think it is an index of how "high" the astral explorer has ascended into the heavenly realms.  

Don

I find one disconcerting thing about this entire discussion that I had difficulty putting into words - until now.  That is, the documentation of the vast majority of NDEs is currently unavailable to us.  Prior to the 20th century there were countless NDEs, some of which had profound impact in other parts of the world.  The Bardo Thodol or Tibetan Book of the dead is an ancient text which describes the postmortem experience, and has striking parallels to recently described NDEs, astral explorations and even modern concepts of heaven and hell.

When Don speaks of Storm or Eadie, he is describing only a handful of incredibly well documented NDEs that have been groomed and recounted in detail.  That leaves countless numbers of other NDEs out there, which may support Storm/Eadies' versions or may have a decidedly different path

Many assumptions are now being made about the frequency with which people meet Jesus, or do not meet Mohammed or a Buddha, but really the number of open case reports we have to read are only the few published works, mostly coming from the Western hemisphere in recent times.  


I plan to start a thread on the Bardo Thodol and explore how this text on the Tibetan/Buddhist post mortem experience has deep implications for NDEs and the afterlife in general.  Based on one group of modern researchers cited on the Coast to Coast radio show, we are dismissing centuries of accumulated knowledge possibly obtained in part from NDEs about heaven and the afterlife.  We are assuming that Buddhists don't have NDE encounters with beings of light identified as the Buddha based on a modern study, when the Tibetan book of the dead suggests that the opposite is true.  

I suppose then, that my current realization is that despite our best efforts we do not have access to enough case reports to make definitive statements about the light being, and what different cultures experience.  This is a real shame, because if Dr. Atwater and Moody truly have together 7-8000 cases, and if one could methodically go through all of them, real and practical answers on the postmortem experience and light beings could be gathered in a definitive manner.  The answers lie on those bookshelves and microfilm.

Perhaps, as Don suggests, new definitive NDE research could be done that would yield practical answers one day.

Matthew

Yes, Matthew, I agree.  Here are just 3 questions that I wish future NDE research and astral exploration might answer.  I encourage readers to ask themselves which of the possible answers I speculatively list seem the most likely to be commonly true.

(1) Why do so many NDEers never encounter the Being of LIght [= BL]?  
a. They were never clinically dead.
b. They were not clinically dead long enough to encounter the BL.
c. But  why do some who have a prolonged in depth NDE not encounter the
   BL?    The BL normally supervises their past life review and many may not
  be ready to handle this yet.  

(2) But what might it mean that many souls are not yet ready for an encounter
    with the BL and the accompanying past life review?
a. They may be too close-minded or frankly evil to be open to self-growth
   through this past life review.
b. Or they may be decent people with poor self-esteem who can't yet handle an
   in depth confrontation with the negative impact of many of their choices.  
c. They may be so intellectually or emotionally limited that they simply lack the
   introspective skills needed to make a past life review effective and profitable.

(3) Family members often help shape an NDE greeting party.  But often key
    family members are inexplicably absent (e. g. a deceased parent, sibling, or
    spouse).  What are the most common reasons for such absenteeism?
a. The missing family members are trapped in Hell and may not be able to
   make the reunion either because they don't know about it or because they
   cannot escape their hellish soap operas to greet their family members.
b. OBE exploration has revealed that souls often lose their earth memories.
   Perhaps, the loved ones missing from the NDE reunion are in a Heaven, but
   simply don't recall their newly arrived loved ones.   If so, one wonders about
   the circumstances under which their earth memories are restored.
c. Perhaps the missing family members simply have a prior astral engagement
  that forces them to miss the NDE reunion.
d. Perhaps, the missing family members often grow emotionally aloof from their
  earthly relatives after death and therefore lack the bond that might attract
  them to this NDE reunion.  Or perhaps, they never felt as close to their
  earthly relative as that relative imagined.

Don

As usual I'm short on time, but I want to mention Peter Novak's website that I ran across yesterday that may be relevant to NDE discussions.  I have not had time to read a lot of the material he's posted there and I'm not sure of what to think of his Division Theory since this is the first time I've heard of it.  This does seem to be well reseached and from what I have read this could explain many of the questions you bring up Don.  It may even address and have a profound impact regarding the role of Jesus... especially his death and resurection.    

Sorry I have to run, but here's the link.  I'll try to post more of my thoughts sometime this weekend.

http://www.geocities.com/~divisiontheory/


K

Most often we describe humankind’s fear of death as a fear of the unknown, however many times I have thought this existential fear of death went deeper still.  So deep in fact that it was somehow solidified in reality.  If Novak is correct in soul (unconscious) and spirit (conscious) separating at death, then our belief in separation and our existential fear of death is implicitly justified.

Aside from bits and pieces from Novak’s site, his views on NDE are the only section I’ve had time to read thus far.  These views seem to shed a whole new light in which further research would be required although from what I have read Novak does seem to be able to provide plausible answers to many questions regarding NDE, ADC and memory loss.  In fact, whole belief systems may need to be re-evaluated including my own.  I’m just not sure at this point.

Even the idea of OBE and astral exploration would need to be re-evaluated in light of this.  For example do we leave our body or do we split our consciousness?  In one section he discusses retrievals and retrieving fragments of self.  Even reincarnation seems plausible in this theory.  I scanned the section on ghosts, poltergeists and hellish realms in which this theory seems to make a great deal of sense.

One thing that struck me right away is that this would certainly present a new view of reconciliation in Jesus’ death and resurrection.  I’m not familiar enough with the other world religions to know what if any implications this theory might include.

I’d love to hear others thoughts about this.

Love, Kathy

I am currentlly corresponding with key members of the IANDS.org website dedicated to studying NDEs.  They have informed me, that there is a very well documented episode of a Muslim woman named Azmina Suleman having a specific NDE, part of which included a specific encounter with the prophet Mohammed as the being of light.  The book is titled "A passage to Eternity" and is available at Amazon.com.  

IANDS.org is a major organization as is NDERF.  I plan to expore both sites further as a way to document more cases and sort through the issues raised here.  

More to come,


Matthew

Kathy,

I had read Novak's theories before; Chumley/Brendan has a thread on it here - he rightly labeled it one of the most ghastly possibilities in the universe.  Intuitively, it does not feel right to me.  I think it is because intuitively I believe in a unity of all things, and Novak wants to create a division where none exists.  He is calling the unconscious another me, and saying that we are binary creatures.  He cites the split anatomical brain as proof of this; interestingly enough, the brain's function is grossly discernable, but many areas of thought, memory and motor control have accesory pathways, and people can understand and function with severe brain injuries.  Lashley and others actually developed a holographic model of brain function, and he burned various parts of a rat's brain after it had learned to use a maze.  To his surprise, the memory of the maze was not eraseable; rats who had learned the maze were able to traverse it more quickly even after Lashley had (unfortunately) fried most of their cerebral cortex.  

I see our subconscious as our connection to the universe.  It is completely passive, it is receptive to symbolism (dreams) and it is the area where our conscious intent makes its impression which then creates our physical world (thought creating reality).  

Novak's model does not account for the connection of our mind to change events/probabilities in the physical world; he merely divides us in two, and claims our subconscious is a separate consciousness.  Rubbish.  You and I have seen the effects of obtaining clarity through meditation and then impressing a thought onto our shared collective subconscious.  What happens?  Our intent manifests.  A prayer may be answered.  Thus, for me, the subconscious is a shared connection we all have to the universe and each other.  

Binary theory (Novak's) is deeply flawed because it assumes we are diseased as a race and it divides us, and instills fear of mindlessness in the post mortem world.  All experiences, be the NDEs, experiences during meditaiton, channelings, you name it, that have any merit do not support this idea.  

I think it is deeply flawed, and just plain wrong.

Matthew

This is a key well done study of beings of light from NDERF.org:


Another Look at Beings Encountered During the Near Death Experience  
(Part 2 Soulmate Study)

 by Jody A. Long, J.D.


ABSTRACT: It is a common element, unique to the NDEs experience, to report seeing deceased beings.  Frequently, those seen on the other side are religious beings or deceased relatives.  This study analyzes the beings that were seen on the other side.  The datum is broken down into the categories of familiar beings and unfamiliar beings.   Of the 302 people who responded to the survey, 29% (88) saw familiar beings and 25.8% (78) saw unfamiliar beings.  Of the 166 people who saw beings, 53% saw familiar beings, while 47% saw unfamiliar beings.  The highest percentage of familiar beings seen were blood relatives (25.9%), followed by religious figures (22.9%).  Implications are discussed against the backdrop of consciousness and the Soulmate myth of popular culture.

KEY WORDS:  near-death experience; beings; Soulmates; soul mates; God, Jesus, angels, consciousness, relatives, soul, religious figures, soul cluster group

Another Look at Beings Encountered During the Near Death Experience
by Jody

Reprint requests may be sent to Jody A. Long, J.D. at blueheron78@yahoo.com



INTRODUCTION

Studies done in the late 70's and early 80's provide much of the foundation for today's understandings of the near death experience (NDE).  One of the distinguishing factors unique to NDEs is the reports of beings, deceased relatives, and the implications resulting from these contacts.  

Michael B. Sabom took great care to document his studies in his book, Recollections of Death, published in 1982 (Sabom, 1982). He showed that what NDErs saw and heard while they were dead, had a factual basis.  These people could accurately recall events happening around them.  The Dutch NDE study in 2001, headed by Pim van Lommel, replicated the phenomena and described a patient's veridical perception out-of-body experience (van Lommel, 2001).  Although there are scientists, such as Russell Noyes, who initially set out to prove that imminent death produced hallucinations of the mystical category with "intense visual imagery" representing "a more complete withdrawal from extreme circumstances (Noyes, 1984)," this cannot explain why NDErs can see, hear and accurately recall happenings in the same or other rooms.    

Just as this out of body component is considered a core and real component unique to NDEs, so is the component of meeting beings during the experience.  As noted by Charles Flynn, an early NDE researcher, he quoted the words of sociologist William I. Thomas, "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences" (Flynn, 1984, p. 279).  The sentiments were echoed by Kenneth Ring by saying, "Such experiences . . . tend to exert a powerful effect on a person's motivations, values, and conduct. . . However one chooses to interpret near-death phenomena, they are unquestionably real in their effects" (p. 279).

Kenneth Ring noted in his study, that the presence of beings could be sensed and sometimes communicated with at the stage after a person leaves their body.  (Ring, 1984) This may or may not be part of the tunnel phase.  Further, twenty percent of the persons who had experienced a presence at this stage in their NDE, reported drastic changes in their lives based upon the contact with the deceased individual.  He also noted that one-tenth of the NDErs went to the final stage he termed as "entering the light."  Beings are more commonly seen during this stage.  He commented on several persons who reported seeing deceased relatives (p. 34).

According to the Greyson NDE Scale, the transcendental component has the highest correlation with the other three components. (Greyson, 1984).  This transcendental component is defined by Ken Ring, as a transpersonal experience.  (Ring, 1984, p. 36).  The NDE is a transpersonal state of consciousness in “which an individual transcends the usual ego boundaries as well as the dimensions of time and space” (p. 36).  Therefore, based on Greyson’s scale, beings play a crucial part in the transcendental nature of the NDE.

Interestingly, on Greyson’s preliminary questionnaire, 26% saw beings.  On the final NDE scale, the question reads "Did you see deceased spirits or religious figures?" and correlated the question as part of the transcendent component unique to the near death experience (Greyson, p. 53).  Van Lommel noted that of 62 patients reporting a NDE, 32% met with deceased persons.  (van Lommel, 2001).  

Since beings represent a unique and transcendental part of the near death experience, this paper will explore what beings people encounter when they go to the other side.  This paper represents the second part of a six part study to find out about Soulmates.  The first study discussed the background of the Soulmate study as viewed through the lens of consciousness studies.  This second paper will focus on relationships between the NDEr, the living, and those on the other side.  I will also add to the knowledge of what categories of deceased beings or religious figures are most commonly reported.

METHODOLOGY

This study is a retrospective review of data received from an Internet survey on the Near Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF) website www.nderf.org (Long, 2002).[1]  Out of a total of 626 experiences submitted to the website, 302 of these experiences met the research definition of NDE as defined as, "A lucid experience associated with perceived consciousness apart from the body occurring at the time of actual or threatened imminent death"  (Long).  It was then determined which of the 302 NDEs answered "Yes" to the question "Did you meet or see any other beings?" and "If yes or uncertain, describe.  Where were they? Did you know them? What was communicated?"  Earth beings seen during the veridical perception phase of the NDE were excluded.  

Dr. Long developed an Excel based chi-square calculation engine based on over 2,000 data points.  Calculations are automatically updated when new data is added.

Out of the 302 NDEs, 212 (70.1%) reported encountering beings.  The beings were divided into familiar and unfamiliar categories based upon whether they described beings or not.  Out of the 212 who reported encountering beings, only 166 (78%) described the beings they encountered.  Each account was counted only once.  Beings counted were those beings that were seen, sensed, and part of the universal consciousness.  

In the familiar category, there were divisions for religious beings, blood relatives, relatives, and other.  In the unfamiliar category, divisions were for male, female, genderless, and others.  Although many people reported seeing more than one being during their experience, the count is one NDE and one being.  For example, while Jesus may have been seen in the same experience as Grandma was seen, Jesus also appeared in 21 other different experiences.  Grandma was tabulated once and Jesus was tabulated once for this one experience.  

Analysis was also performed on the two categories: 1) all beings; and 2) only familiar beings.  Each group was then compared in terms of age of the experiencer at the time of the NDE and whether they saw multiple, one or two beings.  Multiple NDEs and those that an age was not given could not be used.  

RESULTS

Of the 302 people who responded to the survey, 29% (88) saw familiar beings and 25.8% (78) saw unfamiliar beings.  Of the 166 people who saw beings, 53% saw familiar beings, while 47% saw unfamiliar beings.  For those experiences who saw multiple beings, they may have been counted in several categories of familiar and unfamiliar beings.  However, for each being that was seen, there was only one experience counted.  For instance, in one account, a person may have seen Jesus and non-specific angels.  Jesus would have been tabulated once under familiar religious figures, and there would be a tabulation mark for unfamiliar religious figures.  Out of 166 experiencers who saw beings, this one experience would count only once as seeing Jesus.  Also, of 166 experiencers who saw beings, this one experience would count only once as seeing non-specific angels.  Therefore, it is valid to say that a total of 38 experiencers saw Jesus or a total of 9 experiencers saw angels.  However, it would be incorrect to cross-compare those experiences seeing multiple beings by using all of the tabulated experiences below such as n=226.  The break down of familiar and unfamiliar beings is as follows:      

Familiar Beings

n=166
Total
%
 
Total
%

Religious
38
22.9
 
Jesus
21
12.7
 
God
9
5.4

Angels
8
4.8

Blood Relatives
43
25.9
 
Grandmother
16
9.6

Grandfather
8
4.8

Father
7
4.2
 
Mother
5
3.0
  
Son
3
1.8
 
Daughter
1
0.6
 
Brother
2
1.2
 
Aunt
1
0.6

Relatives
9
5.4
 
Father-in-law
2
1.2
 
Significant Other
2
1.2

Non-specified
5
3.0

Friends
10
6.0
 
 10
6.0

Other
26
15.7  
 
Famous People
1
0.6
 
Cartoons
1
0.6

At one with all
4
2.4

Animals
2
1.2

 
Familiar Unknown
16
9.6
 
Loved ones
1
0.6
 
Devil
1
0.6

Unfamiliar Beings

People
62
37.3
 
Male
11
6.6
 
Female
6
3.6
 
Beings
44
26.1
 
Genderless
1
0.6

Other
38
22.9
 
Talked to or felt a presence
22
13.3
 
Angel
9
5.4

Demon/Shadows
6
3.6
 
Animal
1
0.6


A t-test was done for whether there was any correlation to seeing beings, whether or not the beings were familiar, blood relatives, or religious figures.  There is no correlation between age and what beings are seen where p value accepted as significant is p<0.01.  However, there is a trend towards seeing familiar beings and blood relatives if p<0.05.  Below are the results:

T-test
 p value

Saw beings
0.873

Familiar beings
0.037

Religious beings
0.687

Blood Relatives
0.050


Using the same criteria as the t-test except breaking the data into age groups, the chi square table shows no correlation between age and what beings are seen, if any.  The age groups used were children (0-17), ages 18-40, and age 41 and over.  There was a trend (.099) towards the older an experiencer was at the time of their NDE, the higher chance they would encounter a familiar being.

I also tried smaller categories to see if it would make a difference.  I used the ages 0-12, 13-17, 18-25, 26-40, 41-55, and 56 and over.  There was a trend (.062) towards older people to see blood relatives.  Although the correlation between expected and observed for seeing familiar beings was .094, there was no trend.  Some age groups and others were down, with no clear pattern.

The datum was divided into how many beings were seen during the experience.  It looks like the ratio of beings per experience is about the same regardless of whether or not the beings are familiar, and that it is slightly more common to see one being instead of many beings.  Below are the results:

All Beings
Total n = 166
%
Familiar Beings Only
Total n = 88
%

Multiple
71
42.8
Multiple
38
43.2

One Being
77
46.4
One Being
40
45.5

Two Beings
18
10.8
Two Beings
10
11.4


There is no correlation between age and the likelihood of seeing one or more beings.  The ratios between the categories of “all beings” and “familiar beings” remains fairly constant: with a slightly greater chance of encountering only one being during the experience.

There were many statistically significant correlations that cannot be attributed to chance alone.  The chi square results are shown below:

n=250, p<.01 Seeing Beings  
Beautiful locations 3.87E-09
Universal Order/Purpose 3.59E-05
Seeing a Light 2.92E-05
Decision to Return 5.38E-05
Tunnel 0.000903576
Share Experience 0.000501235
Life Change 0.001414808
Changed Beliefs 0.008022381
Future Life Events 0.004492182

Those who encountered beings were more likely to perceive of a universal purpose or order.  Additionally, those who saw beings were more likely to report the classic NDE elements of seeing a light, beautiful locations, and the tunnel.  Reports of seeing future events was more likely to be delivered by other beings.  Other beings were associated with the decision to return.  Those who reported seeing beings were more likely to have changed beliefs and a life change.  They were also slightly more likely to share their experience with others.  

DISCUSSION

Compared to Greyson and van Lommel, 49% of NDErs responding to the web survey said they saw beings.  Some of the increased number could be explained by what was scored as a being.  Prior subjects may well have focused on literally what they could see.  Our study was more inclusive in that it included beings whose presence could be sensed and those beings that may not have been human, such as angels.  In the van Lommel study, it is unclear if the answers included religious figures.

While many of the results of the chi-square analysis make sense intuitively, this is the first time these results have been scientifically verified.  With p<.01 and n=250, the results are highly reliable.  Seeing beings seems to serve an integral part of both, the NDE itself and the integration process of the NDE afterwards.  Those who reported contact with other beings during the NDE, were involved in the decision to return and they had a sense of universal purpose.  Those who saw beings were more likely to have changed beliefs and a life change, suggesting that the universal purpose or order is different than earthly purpose and order.  It would logically follow that the changes would incorporate the new understandings gained from the NDE but this is beyond the scope of this paper.  However, the topic will be more fully explored in an upcoming paper entitled, "New Religious Understandings from the Near-Death Experience."

Out of the initial 212 who reported seeing beings, 78.3% (166) described the beings they saw or sensed.  Although there is no significant correlation as to whether individuals see familiar or unfamiliar beings, or whether the beings are blood relatives or not, there is a trend towards seeing familiar beings and for seeing blood relatives.  

The highest percentage of familiar beings seen were blood relatives (25.9%), followed by religious figures (22.9%).  In looking at whether the angels (or the opposite) were counted among familiar beings, they were counted as familiar if they were named or called “guardian angel.”  If non-specific, they were counted as unfamiliar.  Also of interest is the categories of “familiar unknowns” (. 1%) and the “at one with all” (.02%).  There is a weak trend that the older an experiencer is at the time of the NDE, the more likely they will see blood relatives.  Religious figures are seen and recognized by all ages.

In reports of unfamiliar beings, it seems more likely that gender is not important, or at least not as important as other characteristics.  People report them as just “beings” or a “presence.”  

It makes sense that more people would see their grandparents on the other side because grandparents would be more likely to pass to the other side than parents, siblings, or children.  However, it is curious that grandfathers would more likely appear with grandmothers than to appear solely by themselves.  This is a bit odd in light of the fact that only two people saw significant others on the other side.  Although it can be said that seeing significant others on the other side would be less likely due to relative similarity in the age of the experiencer and the significant other, it seems odd that more significant others were not seen on the other side.  This would make one wonder about the popular conception of Soulmates.  

Data gathered from the www.adcrf.org website about after death communications (ADC) also shows a curious link between blood relatives and communication between loved ones.  Analyzed were 238 contributions to the ADC website form exploring the relationship between the deceased and the person reporting the ADC. Surprisingly, 46 (19%) of the contacts occurred within 24 hours or less. Moreover, 35 (76%) of the 46 contacts occurred between blood relatives. Only 5 (14%) occurred between significant others.

In 2001, a study of 120 NDEs using NDERF data collected from the www.nderf.org website, a surprising find was that more parents came back for children, grandparents for grandchildren, or children came back for parents, than any other reason when given a choice to return to earth or not.  

The connection between blood relatives and consciousness is intriguing.  It is my hypothesis that traditional views of relationship roles are very different than the myths of popular culture.  A possible pattern that fits the data is that we may be seeing a spectrum of relationships across the board of consciousness.  

Religious figures could be on one end of the spectrum and represent the larger cosmic group we belong to.  This is further supported by NDE reports of becoming part of the greater cosmic consciousness.  The fact that NDErs mention familiar unnamed beings is significant as it could suggest some kind of predestination or soul recognition of another group member.  

Relatives could represent a microcosm of our own, unique soul group that we travel through time with.  There clearly are some connections between blood relatives that would suggest purpose, or at least preconceived knowledge of the existing bond that affects our relationship on earth.  Many times, the expressed desire is to teach, comfort or protect the person on this side.  The most exciting concept of relatives has to do with the relationship between the DNA of relatives and the observed soul bond.  These soul cluster groups appear to be what we would really envision when we think of a Soulmate; someone with whom we spend eternity.  

There are many reasons why we consider significant others as Soulmates according to our cultural myths.  From this study, it does not appear that significant others are as likely to be with us in the hereafter as it does for blood relatives.  However, I would stress that this does not mean that significant others cannot be with us on the other side.  Grandparents appearing in pairs would suggest that significant others can remain together.  

In future papers, I will discuss the role of the significant other and hope to explore how they might fit into our development of consciousness. Additionally, the focus on relationships will be discussed as part of the universal order and purpose.



[1] For a more detailed discussion on the methodology, see Long, J. and Long, J. (2002) A Comparison of NDEs Occurring Before and After 1975 Results from a Web Survey of Near Death Experiencers, The Journal of Near Death Studies, x, x-x.



I would like to give a hearty thanks to John Paul Long, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus in Pharmacology, University of Iowa, for his editorial and research comments.

REFERENCES

Flynn, C. (1984). The Near-Death Experience: Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (pp. 267-279).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Greyson, B. (1984). The Near-Death Experience Scale, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (pp. 45-59).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Long, J. and Long, J. (2002) http://www.nderf.org, http://www.adcrf.org

Noyes, R. and Slyman, D. (1984) The Subjective Response to Life-Threatening Danger, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (pp. 26).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Ring, K. (1984) Further Studies of the Near-Death Experience, B. Greyson and C. Flynn (Eds), The Near-Death Experience, Problems, Prospects, Perspectives, (p. 30-36).  Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.

Sabom, M. (1982) Recollections of Death: A Medical Investigation. New York: Harper & Row.

van Lommel, P. et al. (2001) Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands, The Lancet, 358, 2039-2042.



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(Counter set 11/25/02)

One of the conclusions I have drawn from this study is that meeting religious leaders, while documented, is by no means the path of the majority of reports on NDEs.  Meetings with family members are much more common.  I have pulled up many case reports from NDERF.org, and found that many NDEs are vague, many do not include conversations such as was documented by Howard Storm.  Most are reported on an emotional level, and described as being difficult to put into words.  Evenso, all appear to be life-transforming.

Thus, I am not sure that encounters with major religious figures are going to be the lynch pin or key to understanding the post mortem state or NDE.


Matthew

Thanks DocM for that information..

Matthew,

I too appreciated your summation of an NDE study. I've always had the impression that deceased relatives form part of the greeting party much more often than religious figures.   What confuses me is how the BL is counted in this summation.   Is it only counted as a religious figure if the NDEr projects an indentification on to it or when the BL actually identifies itself?  

In any case, with respect to your PM, I wanted to share what I've discovered about Muslim Azmina Suleman's NDE book "A Passage to Eternity."  I have not read her book and am relying on a laudatory review by Shamir Ladhami.  According to him, she identifes the BL not as Muhammad, but as God just as my prior research would predict.  Did Diane Corcoran [an IANDS official] give you the impression that Azmina indentified the BL as Muhammad?  

What also troubles me is her claim to recall past earthly incarnations.  I wonder if she was already an ex-Muslim at the time of her NDE.  Muslims don't believe in reincarnation.  In any case, as you know, Swedenborg too experiences past lives during his astral explorations, but learns in higher heavens that these reincarnation memories are bogus.  He learns that these memories are merely those of spirits with whom one is unwittingly connected during one's astral journey.  Other NDEers too are emphatically told that reincarnation is a false doctrine.

One of my criteria in assessing astral reincarnation claims is whether the alleged memories simulate famous movie events.  Azmina alleges a past life as "a Roman soldier denying a drink to a wayfarer."  In the academy award-winning movie "Ben Hur," a Roman soldier does just that.  For that reason alone, her past life recall seems delusory.  Still, I hope to track down her book at Barnes and Nobles.

Don

I pulled this quote from NDERF.org from a review of Azmina's book, Don:

" I met Azmina at the 2005 annual IANDS Conference.  She is a really nice lady.  The power of this book for me is that it is one of the few Muslim NDEs that we have had the privilege to read, yet presents a very balanced account without drawing too much of her religious background into it.  One of my favorite parts was when she met the Prophet Muhammad - Jody"

I also managed to find Azmina's website and email her - so once again, I am hopeful that we can learn more information directly from the source.


Matthew

What are you doing here in the 'New Age Ghetto(your words)'...ala- Afterlife forum???
Please explain?.... Posting since 2001, you must have learnt something!?...gman

Thanks Matthew, I agree the idea of DT is ghastly and seriously flawed in the thought of this binary doctrine.  However, some of what he says does make sense and this is what I’m questioning. Conscious energy on its way to the physical does split into duality at the astral level of our being to create the physical at birth.  When we let go of the body at death the energy fields associated with the physical disappear while the person maintains the higher spiritual energy fields.  We block and distort the energy flow because of fear and our belief in separation and we create disease in the physical body even though unity and the holographic model of the brain and the universe still exists.  What is plausible about some of Novak’s website postings is that this belief in separation creates our afterlife experiences that could shed some light on some of these questions regarding NDE, ADC and memory loss as well as the hellish realms, etc.

Anyway, I don’t want to take this thread off topic.  I wish I had more time to research some of these things  Thanks for the research you’re doing!  

Love, Kathy

Don,


There was a mix up of names at the NDERF site.  A woman named Anita emailed me to say that she had a NDE but had not seen religious figures.  For Azmina Suleman, the review I posted before by Joy does state that she met with the prophet Mohammed.  Will try to get more information...


Matthew

I visisted Nowak's site for a short time, and as Doc does, I believe he goes too far with the split self thing.  I believe our souls have a conscious mind that makes use of the thought patterns and memories that are stored in what is refered to as our subconscious mind. I don't see how mind could operate without a repository of memories. The trick is to get to the point where we can have such a repository without being controlled by it.  We do so my learning to live according to divine wisdom, love and will. Perhaps Nowak is so intent on coming up with something new, that he's listening to his repository too much.

Regarding what Kathy wrote,

When it comes to NDEs I believe there is some variance. If a person lets go of his or her preconceived notions sufficiently enough, the spirit presences he or she makes contact with during an NDE can deliver the messages they want to deliver. A person such as Howard Storm received too much detailed information for his experience to just be the result of what his subconsious mind told him.

One of the most stunning things about my night in heaven experience is that I went from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing in a manner that was automatic and immediate.  I knew and understood right away that it is true about God, Christ and the afterlife.





[quote author=Lights of Love link=1176353717/45#51 date=1176725194]  What is plausible about some of Novak’s website postings is that this belief in separation creates our afterlife experiences that could shed some light on some of these questions regarding NDE, ADC and memory loss as well as the hellish realms, etc.

recoverer wrote on Apr 16^th, 2007 at 12:29pm:

I visisted Nowak's site for a short time, and as Doc does, I believe he goes too far with the split self thing.  I believe our souls have a conscious mind that makes use of the thought patterns and memories that are stored in what is refered to as our subconscious mind. I don't see how mind could operate without a repository of memories. The trick is to get to the point where we can have such a repository without being controlled by it.  We do so my learning to live according to divine wisdom, love and will. Perhaps Nowak is so intent on coming up with something new, that he's listening to his repository too much.

I agree, with your statement as well.. Also, what I don't agree with on his site is the fact that we can lose our souls.. Plus, I don't believe in the devil and demons as he insist there are...

I think Novak is working on things, he hasn't taken it far enough is all.

my thesis is the human is a thing that is becoming, that becoming is a constant and continues after exit of the body.
I'm with Doc's generalizations, except for the use of the word rubbish, lol!

my thought regarding the subcon. and the conscious state of C1 is that access to the unconscious becomes more accessible as we advance in linear time. the unconscious mind can also be seen as part and parcel of the collective unconscious. thusy the afterlife areas can be seen as a merging back into a subjective realm, while still retaining individuality within experience of our trek.

you do have the appearance of division here in the physical; appearance should not be considered an absolute state of affairs however. in other words what it "looks" like is not the whole truth.

According to Monroe, we have the brain itself split into two hemispheres, the idea being that to get the two halves of the brain to work simultaneously, aids in becoming a more aware person, both in unconscious areas, and in conscious areas. with this type of merge, balance, we proceed to design our own afterlife circumstances bypassing many of the BST's or places where it is subjective consciousness.

here on Earth we have an objective consciousness, although some would argue this point, I would say the objective is to stay alive first, and then acquire all other goals and aspirations is to be in objective mode.. the persons whom I have retrieved were in a subjective state. they were subjected to their memories as they identified themselves this way. This is because they had not thought much about what they would "do" upon exit of their physical body. thats why it's important to think about our afterlife, so that we can retain some of our objectives and not be floaters who would be needing assistance. as I see it, both states, subjective and objective should work hand in hand or be developed to work together as a goal. Those things we dwell on, here or there, dreaming or awake are effecting to be demonstrated after our exit because thought is made of creative stuff.
as a man thinketh...so shall he be.

on another note..lol...I asked god once if he would take back my life and use it as he saw fit.  He retorted back..what do u think life is? a department store? where you can exchange the gift of life I gave to you for another life?

I sorta got put in my place after that. :)

Dr. Atwater has kindly kept us in mind and recounts this case from her files on NDEs:

It was an adult experiencer.  He was from Egypt, a Muslim, and had received a grant to attend a particular school in Minneapolis, Minnesota.  He was driving a cab when I met him - earning money for living expenses while in school.  I had just arrived in town and needed a cabbie to drive me to my destination.  It was a long drive.  On the way, we were discussing the city, its industries and population (among my favorite topics), when he veered away from the conversation and started telling me about the time he had died a few years before, back in Egypt.  He was hospitalized and his vital signs failed.  There was no tunnel.  He was first lying on a gurney, then out-of-body, where he saw the entire healing arena, including patients behind closed doors.  He described them and what was happening to each, then he spoke of increasing light until it nearly blinded him and obscured the view.  He said he  felt as if, somehow, he had shifted his position and had entered another realm elsewhere.  This light to him seemed to blast out.  There was just more and more light, radiant beams of light, and out of this light advanced a man.  He said he was a man dressed in light, and he called him Mohammed.  I asked him how did he know the figure was Mohammed since there are no historical pictures of him anywhere.  He said he just knew, he absolutely knew.  It couldn't be anyone else.  It was Mohammed.  He went on and on about how blessed he was to see Mohammed, the real Mohammed, and how Mohammed had asked him what he had done to help his people.  It was then, right then, that the Egyptian fellow made a promise that he would go to America and get a degree and come back and help his people.  He was effusive about his promise to Mohammed and about going to school.  The man was intent, passionate, about what he was doing.  He was single-minded and not interested in dating or social affairs - only in getting his degree and going back to Egypt.  He seemed relieved to have shared his story with me and thanked me for listening.

PMH

The below line suggests a lack of openess.

[quote author=DocM link=1176353717/45#57 date=1176836568]Dr. Atwater has kindly kept us in mind and recounts this case from her files on NDEs:

It couldn't be anyone else.

"There was just more and more light, radiant beams of light, and out of this light advanced a man.  He said he was a man dressed in light, and he called him Mohammed.  I asked him how did he know the figure was Mohammed since there are no historical pictures of him anywhere.  He said he just knew, he absolutely knew.  It couldn't be anyone else.  It was Mohammed."
________________________________________________________

Thanks for posting Dr. Atwater's case, Matthew.  It is the first of its kind that I've encountered and I wonder how rare this Muslim's NDE claim is.  In astral reality, all communication is telepathic.  So it is often hard to identify the line between the BL's communication of an identity and the patient's projection of an identity on to the BL  In this case, the Muslim seems to project the Muhammad identification.  By comparison, what I look for in the BL's self-identification as Christ are unmistakable communications from the BL that make this identity obvious.   Both Betty Eadie and Howard Storm received such clear comments in their conversation with the BL (= Jesus).  If the patient claims, "I just know it was Jesus," I conclude that he is probably projecting this identification.  Still, I have never even heard of a single dying Muslim alleging that he met Muhammad in an NDE.  So your example is important to me.  

Dr. Atwater's case raises another possible source of confusion in NDE research.  The BL is a lumionous man, but he emerges from the Light rather than actually being the Light itself.  In other NDE cases, the BL is the whole Light event.  Deceased relatives often appear in NDEs are luminous beings.  So I wonder whether this Muslim case should count as a BL.  In any case, Matthew, I can't get enough of such cases.  So please post more cross-cultural NDEs as you encounter them.

Thanks,
Don

Great postings everyone! Very interesting.

I recently bore witness to "2" first hand accounts of NDEs that I thought I'd share. One was from a discussion with a man, wherein he was talking with me about how he had gotten into a severe motorcycle accident and was pronounced clinically dead in the hospital for roughly 2 min. At which time I openly questioned what he had experienced during those roughly 2 min. of clinical death. He kindly told me that he would discuss it with me later in the day when there were fewer people around; to which he held up his promise. He opened his discussion with a brief disclaimer stating that he does not talk about this experience with very many people beings there are alot of people who aren't opened to such ideas or experiences; often times labeling one as insane or psychotic. With that, he began his story:

"I remember accelerating my motorcycle to speeds of approx. 90 mph, at which point I had lost control of my motorcycle; veering into oncoming traffic. I slammed into the oncoming car with tremendous force, severing my leg... All went blank. I was told that there was a man gardening outside of his house who ran up to the crash scene and tied a ternicate around my now severed leg; stopping me from bleeding to death, as the blood was pumping out uncontrollably from the leg opening. My next memory is of being in a hospital bed hooked up to various machines and medical devices. Then, I heard the doctor say: "Hurry, we're losing him!". My next experience was of looking down at my own physical body lying there in the hospital bed with the doctors around it, working frantically to save it. I don't recall any emotion at this point, other than that of serentity, well-being, and calmness. I remember hearing a sound that reminded me of the pictures that you see of a baby on an ultrasound monitor; kind of a "wooshing/slushing" sound. I was also aware of being surrounded by the deepest black that one could ever imagine. It was tangible; it was like you could feel it. It was at that point that I was aware of a speck of light in the distance of the blackness. Mind you, this was not a light like that of a flashlight... this was a light like a light that I have never seen before nor since... it was alive... it was love, its illuminosity was unimaginable. < (Talking about this still makes the hairs on my neck stand up!) > I was then traveling towards this light at a speed that seemed well beyond that of the speed of light. It was what seemed to me to be millions upon millions of miles per hour... Beyond human comprehension. However, as I was traveling towards this light, I became distinctly aware of the message that there were still things that I had left to do (in my physical life). It wasn't that I was forced per say, back into my physical life/body. I had a distinct knowing that it was my choice/my free-will, and I chose to come back."

It is worth noting that he had no label for describing this light other than that of immense love, intelligence, and indescribable illuminosity; also, that he was drawn to it at a tremendous speed through the blackness.

Case #2:

The next story is that of a random moving man whom was helping me to move some electronic equipment into my home. The conversation came about as a result of me bringing up the fact that at one point in my life I use to move heavy equipment much as he did, but that my back could not take the strain anymore due to a car wreck that I had been in a few years prior. He stated that he could relate, as his leg had been permanently damaged due to a motorcycle accident that he had been in when he was younger. I asked him what had happened, and he kindly and openly told me the entire story:

"I was riding my motorcyle towards an off-ramp and miscalculated the angle of the turn, colliding into the guard rail; my leg impailed via a metal protrusion attatched to the anchors. The bones of my leg shot out from the skin and were scattered about the road. I remember excrutiating burning pain in my leg. By the time I had arrived at the hospital I had lost a critical amount of blood. The doctors and nurses wheeled me into the operating room, at which time I blacked out."

I then asked if he had experienced anything while pronounced "clinically dead"; to which he replied:

"I've told this to very few people, my wife included (whom by the way, thinks that this was all of the Devil.)"

I replied back, saying that I'm a very open-minded individual and that there's not much that he could say regarding his experience that would surprise me, or that I would be judgemental of.

So he graciously proceeded:

"My next recollection was that of hovering about 8 ft. above my physical body. I remember being aware of everything that was going on in the hospital room. Then the next thing that I was aware of was travelling at a tremendous speed towards the most brilliant, indescribably bright light that I could ever imagine. The definition of "perfection" does not even come close to desribing the nature of this light. <(Talking about this gives me goosebumps!)> I could have stayed in that light, in that place FOREVER. Just think about the gravity of that statement. It's hard for me to put this into words that anybody can understand that would do the experience any real justice. I just can't find the words. I will say this though... I had a fiance at the time, and despite that fact, I did not want to leave the newly acquired state that I had found myself in. However, I had a knowing that it wasn't really my time to go yet. I had a choice to make. To stay or to go back. I knew that there were still things in my Earthly body that I still had yet to do; to accomplish. I made the decision to come back. It was the hardest decision that I've ever had to make, even to this day."

This man also did not label the light as being anything other than indescribably perfect in ways unimaginable.

Just thought I'd share these first-hand experiences that I bore witness to recently. They were very interesting, and very sincere.

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Thank you CA! I enjoyed reading that. my mother died from a botched abortion around 1940. there were several beings around her asking would she like to go with them? She remembered her young daughter (my sister, the first born) and declined their offer as my sister needed her she said.

what I note a commonality in NDE's is that it appears theres a choice to stay or leave. We always choose to return for moral reasons. (something we have to finish or do)
of course we don't read of those NDE's where possibly the choice was made to die, lol, do we? unless we hear it in spirit form. it's interesting to consider if there is a choice.
possibly we would be prompted to return whatever choice we made, because it's just not our time.
I think the force field out there is very loving from my experience. quite all embracing and compassionate.

love, alysia

Thanks CA for sharing this.  Both my mother and husband had NDE during surgery and both described about the same things as you mention in these cases.  They both made the choice to come back because they knew they weren't finished yet.

What's interesting is my husband's case.  The surgery was taking much longer than what I'd been told and I wanted to see what was going on so I went into a meditative state.  We both saw pretty much the same things going on in the operating room except he saw more than I did.  I also saw his mom and grandmother plus two other beings in attendance.  He told me that he did not see them and that he was alone during his whole experience.  I'm not sure why he couldn't see them except that maybe they knew he wouldn't make the choice to leave and didn't want to interfere.

Love, Kathy  

one thing we can all reflect on in NDE and even Obe experiences sometimes, is the commonality of the tunnel, the sensation of being in a tunnel going towards the light; this appears a theme throughout.
we can think about what the tunnel is. I'm sure it's not geographical, and so it must be the conscious awareness, the energy of consciousness is encountering this sensation of travel towards something.
the fact that so many talk of the tunnel, is a point where the rest of us can get together and make a hypothetical conclusion that consciousness can leave the body, encountering what they individually will according to their system of beliefs that they can accept.

Not all peoples will be able to accept an archtype being as it was never part and parcel of their beliefs while in physical. the light however, appears to be a common experience and so I conclude our higher selves are made of light, and that when we gather truths we have in common, we become known as enlightened.  I also believe the light can take on form. and so this would explain the light taking on the form of what is inside the mind and heart, the belief systems of the one perceiving this archtype or form.

Then it can be seen the Light is intelligent and can be composed of many points of light, yet they are in oneness also.

I suppose it leads us to our imagination then. unless we undertake an NDE ourself. then we know.

love, alysia

Berserk wrote on Apr 16^th, 2007 at 12:54am:

Matthew, I too appreciated your summation of an NDE study. I've always had the impression that deceased relatives form part of the greeting party much more often than religious figures.   What confuses me is how the BL is counted in this summation.   Is it only counted as a religious figure if the NDEr projects an indentification on to it or when the BL actually identifies itself?   In any case, with respect to your PM, I wanted to share what I've discovered about Muslim Azmina Suleman's NDE book "A Passage to Eternity."  I have not read her book and am relying on a laudatory review by Shamir Ladhami.  According to him, she identifes the BL not as Muhammad, but as God just as my prior research would predict.  Did Diane Corcoran [an IANDS official] give you the impression that Azmina indentified the BL as Muhammad?   What also troubles me is her claim to recall past earthly incarnations.  I wonder if she was already an ex-Muslim at the time of her NDE.  Muslims don't believe in reincarnation.  In any case, as you know, Swedenborg too experiences past lives during his astral explorations, but learns in higher heavens that these reincarnation memories are bogus.  He learns that these memories are merely those of spirits with whom one is unwittingly connected during one's astral journey.  Other NDEers too are emphatically told that reincarnation is a false doctrine. One of my criteria in assessing astral reincarnation claims is whether the alleged memories simulate famous movie events.  Azmina alleges a past life as "a Roman soldier denying a drink to a wayfarer."  In the academy award-winning movie "Ben Hur," a Roman soldier does just that.  For that reason alone, her past life recall seems delusory.  Still, I hope to track down her book at Barnes and Nobles. Don

 About "past lives", Don have you considered that maybe what Swedenborg experienced was similar to what Monroe and Moen have talked about, as well as Rosiland McKnight's guides, that we all are essentially one immense Light being (a Disc, I-there, Total self, etc.), but that this Light being projects many different, and completely unique selves into space/time, and that these are both one with the Light being and each other, but also distinct beings at the same time?  

  This is kind of a microcosmic enactment of what the Creator itself did with us and these various Light beings to begin with.

 So, judging from the above perspective, in a sense Swedenborg is right.  Lifetimes are illusions of the Soul, Radiant Lady (a seeming ascended master) of Rosiland's 2nd book , Soul Journeys states this rather plainly saying that other lifetimes are ultimately an illusion of the Soul and that the only real reality is that of Spirit, but yet that other lifetimes are a necessary part of the Soul's experience in remembering pure Spirit again.  

  For example, my brother once did a pendulum question asking about me and another lifetime  which i consider i'm part of.   He specifically asked something like, "Is Justin so and so reincarnated?"   The answer was no.  

 Later on, i asked a rather intune and otherwise accurate sensitive if i had been this person, and her guides said, "yes, but not in the way you understand or have believed"    Interestingly, this around the same time i was just starting to change my views of other lives and started contemplating Moen's model vs the more traditional model which you seem to argue against.

 This means that i am not the reincarnation of so and so, but rather we are different and unique beings connected (and One) at a greater/more expanded level of being.  He exists eternally as so and so, and so do i, but yet our lives are still interwined energetically and there is a co-influence which i have seen so many times in so many ways its been quite convincing to me.   Perhaps this is something similar to what Swedenburg also perceived?

 Why does it have to be either--or?   Why can't it be both?   Meanwhile, there are well written books and research by various psychologists which all clearly outline the beneficial and oft very fast (as compared to traditional therapy) healing effects that "past life" regressions can often have on a personality.   Have you ever read, "Children's past lives" or any of Brian Weiss's books?  And ontrary to popular belief, its actually rare that someone claims a famous or well known about lifetime.

  But yes, i do ultimately believe that other lives are part of the illusion of our stuckness and immersion in space/time.    Interestingly, Rosiland's guides outline a very similar concept as found in the Cayce readings, the trinity of body, mind/soul, and spirit.   The body according to Rosiland's guides (specifically Radiant Lady) is said to be completely temporal and ultimately completely "unreal", the Soul contains both reality and unreality or no time and time, and Spirit which alone is said to be completely real and eternal.  

 And one seems to be the reflection of each, from the most real down.   Meaning that the Soul is a reflection of Spirit, and in turn the body is a reflection of Soul.  When reasoning from the perspective of Spirit, other lifetimes are seen as an illusion, when reasoning from the perspective of Soul (which is involved with physical) they seem real but as unique parts connected to a larger Whole, and from more physical-Soul perspective they seem "linear" and completely real as if we had actually been that person rather than as just parts connected to a greater whole.  

  Shades of gray, it seems.  Nor is any one person who is not completed or at Spirit level, completely accurate and correct in all things, even Swedenborg, Moen, Cayce, McKnight, etc.   Material consciousness has a tendency to distort info, its the very "level" of distortion.

I agree with your summation that C1 level is the level of distortions Justin. thanks. alysia :)

Regarding what Cosmic Ambitions wrote, several times, about a year ago, while doing something such as laying in bed reading, I would click out for a moment and see a bright golden light far away in space. It was far away and close and the same time. It was hard to look at it because of its brightness. It had a divine feeling. Remembering the feeling of the light as I meditated helped me with my meditation.

Regarding what Ah so wrote about Emanuel Swedenborg,  my feeling is that the spirit beings we make contact with during OBEs and NDEs have some say on what we experience. They regulate experiences according to the messages that need to be communicated to the physical. They consider what people will be receptive to. Perhaps Emanuel wasn't told about things such as discs because people from his time period just weren't ready for this kind of message. Even today lots of people aren't ready for this kind of message.

I have encountered a whole treasure trove of NDEs supporting the notion that it is not the culture which determines the NDE, but the person's pre-death expectations (much of which is cultural) that may determine the NDE.  These discoveries were in part to a continuing email communication with Dr. Atwater.  These cases are due to the great work of a researcher named Todd Murphy, who published eleven Thai NDEs in 1999, and a concomittant discussion.

In the Thai NDEs, the culture has a strong fear of death, and no concept as in the West of a wonderful afterlife experience.  There is a strong fear of Hell, and the underworld Lord Yama: (from Murphy's writing)

"PHRA MALAYA

The Book of Phra Malaya is the single most important source of Thai ideas and expectations about death and dying. It recounts the visions of heaven and hell experienced by a medieval monk during his meditation. It first describes his descent into hell. There, he witnessed the hall in which Yama, the Lord of the Dead, assigned the souls of the dead to their appropriate rebirths. There were several options for rebirth available. A person could be reborn as a human with any social status, with any degree of attractiveness, as any type of animal, into any one of fourteen hells, or into any one of nine heavens.

Phra Malaya then toured the hells, where he witnessed the various specific tortures inflicted on those who had committed specific various types of sins. After that, he visited a number of heavens. Both the heavens and the hells he saw bear a strong similarity to those described in two Buddhist classical commentaries, the Abhidhammatta Sangaha of Acariya Anuruddha, (12th century) and the Vissudhimagga of Buddhaghosa Acariya (14th century). These two texts were preceded by the Vimanatthu (one of the minor anthologies of the Pali Canon), and the Hindu scripture called the Siva Puranas(ch.5-27), both of which also contain similar descriptions of heaven and hell.

Phra Malaya then saw two `future' periods, the `age of Migasanni', a sinful era dominated by violence, and the `time of Sri Ariya', a heavenly future where, among other things, wish fulfilling trees will grow. These trees are said to produce whatever a person sitting under them wishes for, and grow jewels instead of fruit. The Sanskrit word for these trees is mani trees (mani means gem).

The book of Phra Malaya seems to have no analog in the Judeo-Christian world. It's as though Dante's Divine Comedy were the sole source of western concepts about death and dying, and that it's descriptions of heaven and hell were given the status of absolute truth. To continue the metaphor, imagine that Illustrations from Dante were hung in large numbers of churches to augment the usual religious instruction. Then imagine that motifs from Dante were used in comic books, cartoons, and government education campaigns. To complete the metaphor, imagine that the overwhelming majority of the public had simply never been exposed to competing ideas about death and dying. Reflecting on this hypothetical case might provide an idea of the situation in Thailand is like with respect to the ideas about death & dying found there.

Of course, there are differences between this scenario and the current Thai reality. In fact, there is an alternate set of teachings imported by the Chinese, but one which is quite similar, being also heavily influenced by Buddhist traditions. It also has multiple heavens and hells, and the lord of the underworld, Yama, appears in both traditions (cf. Williams, 1976). Further, Thailand's religious makeup is not absolutely uniform. There is a small minority of Christians and Muslims, as well. Nevertheless, imagining a Christian community which had no ideas about the experience of death not found in Dante's Divine Comedy gives a reasonably good metaphor for understanding thai concepts about death & dying in cultural context.

After contemplating this scenario, many NDE researchers would wonder if, in such a case, all NDEs might not manifest the same phenomenology as Dante's Divine Comedy. Judging from the features of the case histories presented here, it does seem possible. "

The Thai NDEs can be found here:     http://www.shaktitechnology.com/bkknde.htm

The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form in case #6; however, beings of light, tunnels and the like are notably absent in these cases.  Yama is present, a wrathful judge, in several of these NDEs.


Dr. Murphy's conclusions can be found here:  

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm


It is interesting to note that the Thai NDEs do not in general have tunnels, beings of light or other commonalities to Western NDEs.  The judgement of Lord Yama is generally to be feared.  Murphy's conclusion from these cases was that:

"The Thai cases support the idea that NDEs are postmortem confabulations occurring within specific cultural contexts."


Matthew

[Matthew:] "In the Thai NDEs, the culture has a strong fear of death, and no concept as in the West of a wonderful afterlife experience.  There is a strong fear of Hell, and the underworld Lord Yama."
___________________________________________

Contrary to New Age bigotry, one of the gifts of Christianity to the secular West is a general optimism about one's prospects in the afterlife.  Far from being a local cultural reaction, the Thai aversion to an afterlife seems the more common cross-cultural reaction.  For example, consider the significant difference between American and Indian attitudes to their NDEs in Osis and Haraldsson's comparative study of 1,000 NDEs in the USA and India:

"Nearly all the American patients, and two-thirds of the Indian patients were ready to go after having seen otherworldly apparitions with a take-away purpose....However, on the basis of the pilot survey, we did not expect that one-third of our Indian patients would not consent to go ("At the Hour of Death," p. 187)."

In this study, the shared cross-cultural patterns (e. g. unexpected greetings by deceased relatives; no hint of reincarnation, even in the Indian cases) are even more striking.   This study illustrates a central issue that needs resolution: the question of why some NDEs seem influenced by preconceptions and others seem full of surprises (e. g. Jesus appearing as a Being of Light to a Jew and a Muslim).  Osis points to one explanation: "While most visions of surroundings depicted another world, a considerable number--one-third--were mere hallucinations of this-world places and objects (p. 188)."   In this respect, the danger of confusing lucid dreams or their equivalent with NDEs is as key as it is in detecting counterfeit OBEs.

Don

Let's summarize the state of  the question under discussion.  So far, we have a few rare NDE cases of people of other faiths who identify the Being of Light (BL)as Muhammad or some other religious figure.   But we have no cases of the BL unmistakably identifying itself as any religious figure but Jesus.  Indeed, the BL identifies itself as Jesus in some of the most developed NDEs with the best verifications.  We also have two cases in which the BL identies itself as Jesus to a Jew and a Muslim.  More impressively, the BL often makes its identity known as Jesus to atheists.  What does this mean and not mean?

To me it means that Jesus routinely plays the role of the BL that leads the newly dead on a loving past life review.  As during His earthly life, Jesus typically refrains from identifying Himself.  We just don't know why He sometimes breaks this pattern and unmistakably discloses His identify to certain patients, both Christian and non-Christian.   What evidence we have suggests that Jesus breaks this pattern when He discerns that self-disclosure might make this NDE a more spiritually transforming moment.  This does not necessarily mean that the BL is always Jesus, especially for people with no religious affiiliation or a non-Christian religious affiliation.   More studies and cross-cultural case histories are needed to shed more light on this question.

Don

I have not had the time to start a thread about the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead), but I think it bears mentioning here.  That for centuries, if not thousands of years, NDEs and mystical experiences identified different stages of the afterlife and beings of light who were called Devas and deities.  I have tried to bring cases to this thread such as the Thai cases, Azmina Suleman's book (which I have to obtain) where she reportedly met Mohammed, PMH Atwater's Egyptian Taxi driver and others.  I need to research the Bardo Thodol more thoroughly in order to ascertain how the light beings mentioned came to be known over the centuries.  We should not dismiss these encounters as we embrace Storm and Ritchie's well known publicized Western encounters.  


I am not a direct NDE researcher, as pointed out by Dr. Atwater.  As such, it is difficult for me to prove that the NDE of other cultures has other light beings who identify themselves.

Many NDEs do not have light beings.  It appears that far more people are met by family members and loved ones than by light beings.  Cultural expectations must play a big role, as no christian has reported being brought in front  of Lord Yama (the dread Thai Lord of the dead) for judgement, but most of the Thai cases I cited were.  By the way, those Thai cases had impressive verifications of events the NDE experiencer was told would take place that subsequently happened in the "real world."  

I applaud Don's effort for posing the questions, but I do not think the answers can be answered with certainty based on the cited evidence.

Jesus does seem to be overrepresented in Western NDEs, I do grant that observation.  With close to 4 billion christians and Muslims who consider JC to be an important part of their religion, perhaps it is not an overrepresantation.  Better studies and time will tell.


Matthew

Most NDE studies involve patients who survived.  Another dimension that makes the research of Osis and Haraldsson unique is the fact that many of their 1,000 cases from the USA and India died shortly after their experience.  In these fatal cases, the deceased relatives came on a take-away mission (a "call"), not on a mission to send the patients back to their body to complete their life purpose.  This feature of this cross-cultural study led to a stunning result:

"We  found a significant number of cases where patients died in accordance with the "call" of the apparition, even when the medical prognosis was recovery ("At the Hour of Death," 186)."

Don

I received the following communication from the IANDS, one of the largest near-death study groups.  It is interesting.  I will continue to post further followups I get from them:

Greetings, Matthew!

I don't know if you have received any other email replies to your interesting question. You may wish to look in the archive section of the IANDS website for past accounts.

Also, one of our board members wrote me the following:

As soon as I can get my laptop unpacked, I will look through some recent correspondence about Muslim NDEs to see if there's a mention.

For one thing, the being of light is not Jesus--the being of light is most typically referred to either as simply the Light or as God., not as Jesus.

Jesus is perceived as a person whom the experiencer identifies as Jesus (there is no presentation of business cards).  I don't offhand recall anyone's ever saying that the entity identified himself by name--anybody else remember such an account?

Secondly, Jesus is mentioned most frequently because most of our accounts come from Christians or (usually) secularists who don't know other names for who such a perceived person might be.

In an old JNDS (Journal of Near Death Studies) article about the NDEs of five Jewish sages,  there is mention of encounters with the Judges--I don't recall if they were identified singly or as a group. Will try to find that.If more information surfaces, I will forward it to you.

Nancy Clark, PhD, International Coordinator for IANDS


Matthew

I know that my NDE at 18 years old was just the feeling of being above my body, and Seeing what appeared an eclipse, a dark middle with Light radiating around edges, and I got the feeling I could go either way "live or die" , so it felt like I was on a scale of some sort, I could tip either way. I had what amounted to very FAST "FEELING" LIFE review , that I was a "whinnie-selfish being that never really loved anyone", and if I died , I got the feeling my existence would be dark.  Something deeper in me made the decision, because I did come back.  Didn't know who the LOVE BEING was , didn't ask, but me in comparison to this LOVING BEING , I was a selfish, whinnie thing.  And I didn't get that anyone said I was like that, I just "FELT" like that, next to this BEING.

After that experience, I knew I had to "learn" and Practice this "LOVE" thing ! :)