Had another discussion with my fundie buddy here in MT,
and when I mentioned that I didn't ask to be created, he
said "that doesn't matter!"
But... WHY doesn't it matter?
Fact is, I am NOT grateful to be here, and I do NOT consider
my life to be a "precious gift." I LOATHE conscious existence,
truth be told. I slaver, drool, hunger, thirst, and lust after oblivion! (One of the  most pleasurable things I can imagine, is crawling
into bed after a long day, when I'm bone-tired. I find that
imagining slipping off into oblivion FOREVER, is a truly... DELICIOUS
thing. I'd like to think death will be like that. To imagine that I'll NEVER wake up, that I will NEVER
BE again. This doesn't scare me!!!
It ENTICES me. (Indeed, it helps me sleep better!)
So... given that I HATE LIFE, and loathe being a conscious entity... why
wouldn't "God" just zap me into oblivion after I die? ("Hell" is freaking LIFE, folks - even if the Bible hems and haws and calls it "death." If you have consciousness, then you have LIFE - No way around that!) If "he"
won't tolerate people like me in "his" presence, that's cool. Just obliterate me then, it is what I TRULY want!
AND... how can my idiot friend (or others like him) claim that I am making a choice for "Hell" when what I TRULY WANT, is non-existence - NOT an eternity being f***ed up the a$$ with red-hot pokers! How can it be said, that I CHOSE torture, when all I wanted was to be FREED from conscious existence?
It's such a SMALL thing to ask for!
Why should I be denied it, then???
Why don't I have a *RIGHT* to demand
it??? What right has "God" to deny it
to me???

B-man

Chum,

You haven't passed over yet, and you don't know what your encounters would be like then.  You hear on this site that we all create our own afterlife experience one way or another.  If you create a hell, you may be there until your consciousness was willing to accept other alternatives.

But you assume an awful lot.   You assume you won't feel a huge change in spirit.  You also assume that you are being denied oblivion by some superhuman being.  Yet you haven't experienced anything telling you that any of your thoughts are true.


M

Chum, you know Shakespeare said it best......


To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.


But, yes, we hear you! :)

I agree with Matthew....there are a lot of assumptions made about this version of "god" that you describe.  I personally think hell is in the eye of the beholder. All this "lake of fire" kind of imagery is just nothing I've ever seen in any of my meditations. I have seen some characters who don't seem to feel too great where they are, but helpers seem to be on the way.

Oblivion? Hmmmnnnnn.....well isn't that delicious feeling of going to sleep worth waiting for?  Maybe you can have that feeling over and over in the afterlife however much you want.  

Just like in the movie Groundhog Day where the day repeats over and over.....it would be YOUR OWN PERSONAL version of heaven.  You'd be putting your weary head down to sleep, knowing you don't have to get up in the morning, ever again.  Over and over and over and over.

Think of it!  The pleasure of it!  Forever falling asleep, over and over and over and over and over....

Hmmmnnnn, but then, you didn't ask to be there....did you....maybe you'll get an extra fluffy pillow to compensate for that!

:) blink

[quote author=blink link=1175716071/0#2 date=1175718239]Chum, you know Shakespeare said it best......


To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.


But, yes, we hear you! :)

I agree with Matthew....there are a lot of assumptions made about this version of "god" that you describe.  I personally think hell is in the eye of the beholder. All this "lake of fire" kind of imagery is just nothing I've ever seen in any of my meditations. I have seen some characters who don't seem to feel too great where they are, but helpers seem to be on the way.

Oblivion? Hmmmnnnnn.....well isn't that delicious feeling of going to sleep worth waiting for?  Maybe you can have that feeling over and over in the afterlife however much you want.  

Just like in the movie Groundhog Day where the day repeats over and over.....it would be YOUR OWN PERSONAL version of heaven.  You'd be putting your weary head down to sleep, knowing you don't have to get up in the morning, ever again.  Over and over and over and over.

Think of it!  The pleasure of it!  Forever falling asleep, over and over and over and over and over...
*****************
Maybe that might be O.K., IF I can PERMANENTLY trim away all my memories of my
life, of who I was, or ANY knowledge ( whatsoever!) that I was EVER a conscious entity here on Earth. Perhaps then, I'd have a finctional oblivion, which got progressively deeper the longer I was in it.
AND I'd have to make sure I didn't DREAM, either.
Still, it would be a pi$$-poor substite for being annnihilated...

B-man

Chumley:

You might like Ron Krueger's near death experience. If things work out like he says, are you certain that you want your existence ended. Saints preserve us! What would we do without Chumley?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22near+death+experience%22+%22ron+k%22&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8


I posted the yahoo page because the pages with his experience won't post above.

Ha ha, chumly, you serve a purpose here. You are an absolutely
classic case, to be used as a reference point for discussion.
You spell it all out clearly!   Whenever I need an example of the man
near the extreme end of the scale, you are that example.

Okay, Chum,

So ya get to go to sleep over and over and over and over again, all the while having the thought in your head that you were a very rich man who has completely outpleasured himself to the maximum degree for a long long long time, so much so, having experienced so many of the pleasures the world could ever offer that you just couldn't STOMACH anymore pleasure, and you had been such a POWERFUL and SUCCESSFUL figure that you left everyone you ever came in contact with a memory of a pure legend in his own time, such a legend that your story would be told for eons to come, and not only had you experienced all the pleasures and powers of this era, but those of every other time and place in the past AND in the future, so vast is your experience and knowledge....

and then we give you a really fluffy pillow.  Just to top it off....  

Would that be okay?

:)  blink

Thanks recoverer, for this wonderful NDE that I somehow missed.
It clarified some areas that I needed. I especially liked the
description of meeting all our previous lives, and blending all the
information together. Also described is the greatly enhanced
thinking process that I had read of, but not seen many examples of.
That was something I had been told of by an adept named Pierre. He
said that I might someday reach that, but it seems to be still a
long, long way off.

Also, the description of the love force is the best description I
have yet read. This is where the idea of a universe with a basic
operating principle of love comes from. I had been needing to
juxtaposition this against my view of the physical mechanical
universe as random, pitiless and indifferent. This is that huge
difference between this plane and the higher planes.

I still say that the physical universe (that chumly is so unhappy
with, incidentally) could not have come from the same source as the
higher levels, which are very different. This NDE shows that
difference more clearly, two entirely different sectors that operate
on entirely different principles.

I also note the presence of authority, when everyone became aware
that a decision had been made on high, that he was to return to
Earth. (actually he had to make this decision).
This is what has become the nearest thing to a concept of
God as I can get. That is, if there really is a God, that is him,
causing these decisions, or as near as I could get. But this is
almost unrelated to the natural disasters and diseases of Earth, a
totally different world running on different principles. This
difference is what puts believers in juxtaposition with atheists,
and puts love in juxtaposition with indifference.

Hey Chum,

You once confessed that you used to be a goodie-two-shoes "spiritual" soul.  In other words, you've changed.   What makes you think you won't change again, perhaps several times before and after death?  For example, consider this vision of the future B-man: you are a senile, incontinent octogenarian in a nursing home singing "Jesus Loves Me" to your smiling nursing aide, a sweet Puerto Rican gal named Maria who keeps responding, "That's OK, honey, just take your medication."     You vaguely recall that Sunday School song from yoiur youth, but can't clearly sort out your later rebellion against Christianity.   What will happen to your brash defiance be if you enter the afterlife that way?  

Your in the sweet incense of the prayers of the saints,
Don    

Hey Chum,

You once confessed that you used to be a goodie-two-shoes "spiritual" soul.  In other words, you've changed.   What makes you think you won't change again, perhaps several times before and after death?  For example, consider this vision of the future B-man: you are a senile, incontinent octogenarian in a nursing home singing "Jesus Loves Me" to your smiling nursing aide, a sweet Puerto Rican gal named Maria who keeps responding, "That's OK, honey, just take your medication."     You vaguely recall that Sunday School song from yoiur youth, but can't clearly sort out your later rebellion against Christianity.   What will happen to your brash defiance be if you enter the afterlife that way?  

Your in the sweet incense of the prayers of the saints,
Don
*****************
So... inanity is to be my future, then..?
An ETERNITY of being an inane Cream-of-Wheat dribbler
in a nursing home, or the equivalent thereof? (That IS what
Yahwist "heaven" is all about, after all... becoming a stripped
down, mindless, sub-human retarded entity!!!)
Lusting for oblivion,

B-man

[quote author=blink link=1175716071/0#6 date=1175740789]Okay, Chum,

So ya get to go to sleep over and over and over and over again, all the while having the thought in your head that you were a very rich man who has completely outpleasured himself to the maximum degree for a long long long time, so much so, having experienced so many of the pleasures the world could ever offer that you just couldn't STOMACH anymore pleasure, and you had been such a POWERFUL and SUCCESSFUL figure that you left everyone you ever came in contact with a memory of a pure legend in his own time, such a legend that your story would be told for eons to come, and not only had you experienced all the pleasures and powers of this era, but those of every other time and place in the past AND in the future, so vast is your experience and knowledge....

and then we give you a really fluffy pillow.  Just to top it off....  

Would that be okay?

:)  blink
*****************
It wouldn't be based in REALITY, it would be a FALSE memory.
So what would be the point???


B-man

Chumley:

You might like Ron Krueger's near death experience. If things work out like he says, are you certain that you want your existence ended. Saints preserve us! What would we do without Chumley?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22near+death+experience%22+%22ron+k%22&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8


I posted the yahoo page because the pages with his experience won't post above.
*****************
Sounds like Hell to me, recoverer.
Why is this fate, something to look forward to?
HUMILITY, as a "wonderful" thing? Humility is
TORTURE!!! (I oughtta know...)
To never know what it is like to be top dog? A
communistic place where I will have to LOVE the worst
ENEMY I ever had on Earth, as much as I do my father?
(Will I be forced to give my enemy blowjobs as a token
of my "humility", I wonder..?)
To become like the "Borg" on "Star Trek"? No thanks,
you can have my piece of THAT s**t-pie. Give
me oblivion instead!!!

B-man

Now look here Chum you owe to yourself;  God tells us he made the world like a womb : 2Esdra 5:48 '.. I have made the world like a womb..' So if we think about this it means we are not born yet; our period in earth is a gestation period to grow and develop just as a child grows in a mothers womb.  

If we look at 'as above so below' it makes me think of a reversal of events.  Down here we are nourished in a mothers body and our entry into Matter (earth) is physical - as physical as you can get.  Reversing the event our entry into the spiritual world is as spiritual as you can get, and therefore this spiritual birth is entry into the real world.
Because our physical bodies do fall away but our Spirits (the vehicle of our Soul) do not. The place of birth in the spiritual world is our real home.

It is a home that does not have .. dust, stress, money and all the earthly stuff which wears us down physically -
I do believe it is a fun place fill of beauty, joy and peace.  However, it is important, I think, to make sure you are born into the household which is full of positive love and not negative illusion which might become a reality.

You cannot be annihilated because you manifestered yourself to be born into matter and likewise you will manifest yourself to be born into the spiritual world.  

That's not so bad is it?  Especially getting passed the physical matter part.

B-dawg wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 5:49am:

[quote author=blink link=1175716071/0#6 date=1175740789]Okay, Chum, So ya get to go to sleep over and over and over and over again, all the while having the thought in your head that you were a very rich man who has completely outpleasured himself to the maximum degree for a long long long time, so much so, having experienced so many of the pleasures the world could ever offer that you just couldn't STOMACH anymore pleasure, and you had been such a POWERFUL and SUCCESSFUL figure that you left everyone you ever came in contact with a memory of a pure legend in his own time, such a legend that your story would be told for eons to come, and not only had you experienced all the pleasures and powers of this era, but those of every other time and place in the past AND in the future, so vast is your experience and knowledge.... and then we give you a really fluffy pillow.  Just to top it off....   Would that be okay? :)  blink ***************** It wouldn't be based in REALITY, it would be a FALSE memory. So what would be the point??? B-man

Well, Chum, you said you HATE reality. Assuming that is actually TRUE, which I doubt......this wouldn't BE reality....because it would be your REWARD for reality....

ha ha....you make me shiver with delicious chills of real laughter, which is why I DO like this reality!

:) blink

Now look here Chum you owe to yourself;  God tells us he made the world like a womb : 2Esdra 5:48 '.. I have made the world like a womb..' So if we think about this it means we are not born yet; our period in earth is a gestation period to grow and develop just as a child grows in a mothers womb.  

If we look at 'as above so below' it makes me think of a reversal of events.  Down here we are nourished in a mothers body and our entry into Matter (earth) is physical - as physical as you can get.  Reversing the event our entry into the spiritual world is as spiritual as you can get, and therefore this spiritual birth is entry into the real world.
Because our physical bodies do fall away but our Spirits (the vehicle of our Soul) do not. The place of birth in the spiritual world is our real home.

It is a home that does not have .. dust, stress, money and all the earthly stuff which wears us down physically -
I do believe it is a fun place fill of beauty, joy and peace.  However, it is important, I think, to make sure you are born into the household which is full of positive love and not negative illusion which might become a reality.

You cannot be annihilated because you manifestered yourself to be born into matter and likewise you will manifest yourself to be born into the spiritual world.  
*****************
2 questions, Augie...
A. How did I manifest myself here, if I didn't exist previously
AND
B. Why will I manifest myself to be born into the spiritual world,
if I DON'T want to go there??? (Unless I become a total inanified
idiot like Don suggests I might...)

B-man

P.S. The "fun" of the spiritual world sounds a lot like the "fun"
of an Amish barn-raising or something (I wouldn't call that "fun",
I'd call it hard, boring WORK.) All the decriptions of activites in
the "spiritual world" sound like JUST THAT to me... hard, boring,
repetitive WORK, that you don't even get PAID for. (Count me outta that..!)

You're welcome Boris.


Chumley:

Everybody wants to live according to love and humility. Everybody wants to live according to the divine plan. Nobody wants to have eternal enemies. Each person can find that what I say is true inwardly. Something has taken place in your life that has caused you to become unaware of this inner knowing. This is why you feel angry about things. We become angry when we lose track of the love, peace and happiness that we inwardly yearn for. We yearn for it because on some level we know about it. YOU'RE NOT AN EXCEPTION DESPITE WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

This thread is classic.. Great read Chumley you crack me up!!

B-man,

Consider the consensus of astral explorers and NDEs about one of the "nearest" astral layers to the earth variously known as Sheol, Focus 24, etc.   This layer is inhabited not only by earthbound spirits and lost balls in the tall weeds, but also by spirits who, frankly, seem insane.   Now consider all those defiant elderly souls who have no interest in God, Jesus, or progress towards PUL.  A good percentage of these die in pathetic senility.   Their major pleasure is a good bowel movement and their greatly eroded memory is clearest about their youth.   B-man, there is a good chance that this will eventually be your fate.   :-X  And since you were so "spiritual" and goodie-two-shoes in your younger years, that is the phase that your memory will preserve.    

Now, B-man, ask yourself why the afterlife "system" leaves these pathetic souls to their insane ravings and lost confusion.   Perhaps, they lacked the noble core desires that might allow them to be retrieved and made sane to pursue their intense and loving goals.  Think about it, B-man.   These guys wanted and expected extinction like you, but instead they get stuck in drooling insanity--like our most incoherent dreams that make no sense.  These insane souls, too, congregate on the basis of like attracts like, B-man.  If I were you, I'd actually read a book on the afterlife--any book--and get yourself some core desires that might  get you out of this mess.

Don

I agree with Don.


Berserk wrote on Apr 5^th, 2007 at 6:47pm:

B-man, Consider the consensus of astral explorers and NDEs about one of the "nearest" astral layers to the earth variously known as Sheol, Focus 24, etc.   This layer is inhabited not only by earthbound spirits and lost balls in the tall weeds, but also by spirits who, frankly, seem insane.   Now consider all those defiant elderly souls who have no interest in God, Jesus, or progress towards PUL.  A good percentage of these die in pathetic senility.   Their major pleasure is a good bowel movement and their greatly eroded memory is clearest about their youth.   B-man, there is a good chance that this will eventually be your fate.   :-X  And since you were so "spiritual" and gtoodie-two-shoes in your younger years, that is the phase that your memory will preserve.     Now, B-man, ask yourself why the afterlife "system" leaves these pathetic souls to their insane ravings and lost confusion.   Perhaps, they lacked the noble core desires that might allow them to be retrieved and made sane to pursue their intense and loving goals.  Think about it, B-man.   These guys wanted and expected extinction like you, but instead they get stuck in drooling insanity--like our most incoherent dreams that make no sense.  These insane souls, too, congregate on the basis of like attracts like, B-man.  If I were you, I'd actually read a book on the afterlife--any book--and get yourself some core desires that might  get you out of this mess. Don

The way i see it, any pain/suffering only lasts until i die.

Until that point, i live as comfortably as i can. I try to find the ins and outs of this game we call life.

When you 'know' that all pain/suffering is for a limited time only, it becomes far more bearable.

Just think when you die, you wont be human anymore, you will be something else, you will never feel tired/bored/alone/pain...

Death is the prize for completing life, so stick it out chum.

Chumley

Quote:

2 questions, Augie... A. How did I manifest myself here, if I didn't exist previously AND B. Why will I manifest myself to be born into the spiritual world, if I DON'T want to go there??? (Unless I become a total inanified idiot like Don suggests I might...)

A. Life before Life
B. Life after Death

= Life  :)


Quote:

P.S. The "fun" of the spiritual world sounds a lot like the "fun" of an Amish barn-raising or something (I wouldn't call that "fun", I'd call it hard, boring WORK.) All the decriptions of activites in the "spiritual world" sound like JUST THAT to me... hard, boring, repetitive WORK, that you don't even get PAID for. (Count me outta that..!)

It is beyond the senses, it is elusive and at the same time all encompassing, while we here it feels like the melody of a song you can't quite remember, it comes from within and overflows without.  It simply just is because it is.

:)

Augoeideian wrote:

"It is beyond the senses, it is elusive and at the same time all encompassing, while we here it feels like the melody of a song you can't quite remember, it comes from within and overflows without.  It simply just is because it is."


I like that Augoeideian.

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

B-man,

Consider the consensus of astral explorers and NDEs about one of the "nearest" astral layers to the earth variously known as Sheol, Focus 24, etc.   This layer is inhabited not only by earthbound spirits and lost balls in the tall weeds, but also by spirits who, frankly, seem insane.   Now consider all those defiant elderly souls who have no interest in God, Jesus, or progress towards PUL.  A good percentage of these die in pathetic senility.   Their major pleasure is a good bowel movement and their greatly eroded memory is clearest about their youth.   B-man, there is a good chance that this will eventually be your fate.   :-X  And since you were so "spiritual" and goodie-two-shoes in your younger years, that is the phase that your memory will preserve.    

Now, B-man, ask yourself why the afterlife "system" leaves these pathetic souls to their insane ravings and lost confusion.   Perhaps, they lacked the noble core desires that might allow them to be retrieved and made sane to pursue their intense and loving goals.  Think about it, B-man.   These guys wanted and expected extinction like you, but instead they get stuck in drooling insanity--like our most incoherent dreams that make no sense.  These insane souls, too, congregate on the basis of like attracts like, B-man.  If I were you, I'd actually read a book on the afterlife--any book--and get yourself some core desires that might  get you out of this mess.

Don
*****************
Well, Don - if you're right, then I'm f***ed, I guess.
I'd rather stick my you-know-what into a meat grinder and
hit "puree" than become a churchy, preachy, suit-and-tie
get-a-life faithhead.
I'd rather eat nematode-infested human feces, than get up
early on Sunday to go to (UGH) church. (And I suppose you'd
say it's a noble thing to pony up my hard-earned cash to
waste on maintaining Mr. Pulpit Lizard's lifestyle when his collection
plate gets passes around? Parasitic bastard...)
Sorry, but I'm not sacrificing what I DO have -
THIS life - in order to pursue rewards which have BLIND
FAITH, as their only evidence.
Guess I'd better start saving up for that cryonics option..!

B-man

The way i see it, any pain/suffering only lasts until i die.

Until that point, i live as comfortably as i can. I try to find the ins and outs of this game we call life.

When you 'know' that all pain/suffering is for a limited time only, it becomes far more bearable.

Just think when you die, you wont be human anymore, you will be something else, you will never feel tired/bored/alone/pain...

Death is the prize for completing life, so stick it out chum.
*****************
Not to fear, Spit... I'm here for the duration (or at least until I
get some horribly painful terminal cancer or something, in which
case I'll push the "off" button methinks. (Suffering with no reward
ain't my thing.)
After all, I wouldn't have quit smoking (one month now and going
strong!) if I didn't plan on sticking it out as you say. (And who
knows, a cryogenic suspension maybe even...)

B-man

B-dawg wrote on Apr 10^th, 2007 at 1:56pm:

B-man, Consider the consensus of astral explorers and NDEs about one of the "nearest" astral layers to the earth variously known as Sheol, Focus 24, etc.   This layer is inhabited not only by earthbound spirits and lost balls in the tall weeds, but also by spirits who, frankly, seem insane.   Now consider all those defiant elderly souls who have no interest in God, Jesus, or progress towards PUL.  A good percentage of these die in pathetic senility.   Their major pleasure is a good bowel movement and their greatly eroded memory is clearest about their youth.   B-man, there is a good chance that this will eventually be your fate.   :-X  And since you were so "spiritual" and goodie-two-shoes in your younger years, that is the phase that your memory will preserve.     Now, B-man, ask yourself why the afterlife "system" leaves these pathetic souls to their insane ravings and lost confusion.   Perhaps, they lacked the noble core desires that might allow them to be retrieved and made sane to pursue their intense and loving goals.  Think about it, B-man.   These guys wanted and expected extinction like you, but instead they get stuck in drooling insanity--like our most incoherent dreams that make no sense.  These insane souls, too, congregate on the basis of like attracts like, B-man.  If I were you, I'd actually read a book on the afterlife--any book--and get yourself some core desires that might  get you out of this mess. Don ***************** Well, Don - if you're right, then I'm f***ed, I guess. I'd rather stick my you-know-what into a meat grinder and hit "puree" than become a churchy, preachy, suit-and-tie get-a-life faithhead. I'd rather eat nematode-infested human feces, than get up early on Sunday to go to (UGH) church. (And I suppose you'd say it's a noble thing to pony up my hard-earned cash to waste on maintaining Mr. Pulpit Lizard's lifestyle when his collection plate gets passes around? Parasitic bastard...) Sorry, but I'm not sacrificing what I DO have - THIS life - in order to pursue rewards which have BLIND FAITH, as their only evidence. Guess I'd better start saving up for that cryonics option..! B-man

LOL Chumley you are fu***** HILARIOUS!!!

B-man:

You are guilty of the same bias as many Fundamentalists.   That is, you judge alt challenging perspectives in terms of their worst examplars and refuse to seek out spiritualities at their best with their accompanying awesome verifications.   So I challenge you once again to become an honest seeker.

[B-man:] "I'd rather stick my you-know-what into a meat grinder and
hit "puree" than become a churchy, preachy, suit-and-tie
get-a-life faithhead."
_________________

Many churches disdain all forms of stuffiness, and both the pastor and the people "dress down" to enhance the comfort of outsiders.

[B-man:] "I suppose you'd say it's a noble thing to pony up my hard-earned cash to waste on maintaining Mr. Pulpit Lizard's lifestyle when his collection
plate gets passes around? Parasitic bastard...)"
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No, I'd say just the opposite!   Find a small, intimate caring chiurch that pays its pastor a modest salary and raises funds primarily to meet the concrete needs of the poor and the oppressed.  True love requires a loving community to pool their resources and identify practical needs that social agencies overlook.  In many mega-churches, suffering members are often overlooked in the crowd and even die in oblivion.  In a loving small church, everyone is treated as family.   Hospitalized members are visited by the laity as well as by the pastor.   Corporate prayer time is an occasion in which troubled souls pour out their hearts and receive both passionate prayer and practical follow-up to meet their needs.   I know this by direct experience as a pastor.

What I chiefly lament is that mega-churches are growing at the expense of small, more initimate and deeply spiritual small churches.   True, big churches have more money and a larger talent pool.   But Christian spirituality flourishes only when each member has the chance to make a practical difference on a regular basis.  Small churches respect everyone's spiritual gifts and graces.

[B-man:] "Sorry, but I'm not sacrificing what I DO have -THIS life - in order to pursue rewards which have BLIND FAITH, as their only evidence."
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You forget that the Gospels can be confidently connected with eyewitnes testimony.   More importantly, Gospel miracles find corrobration in modern miracles that change skeptical lives.  I have often both experienced such miracles and documented the miracles experienced by others on this site.   If you imagine that Christianity is based on BLIND FAITH, you just need to get out more and take new pictures.  But start by opening your mind to some sort of spiritual quest, even a non-Christian quest.   Why not begin by reading a book by a New Ager rather than a Christian?   In my view, the best example of this is David Fontana's "Is There an Afterlife?  A Comprehensive Overview of the Evidence."   No role for Jesus there, but his book deeply inspired my faith.

Don

Hi Chumley I have to say that you do not owe God anything,he gave you freewill to make your way in this life,so you dont answer to God,only to yourself and you cannot blame God for your own actions,you can only blame yourself.

Thats what its all about,its called "LIFE"

Love and God bless  Love Juditha