I usually meditate while on the bus to work every morning.  I always do breathing execises to energize myself with light energy and put me in a great mindset for the day.  

This morning I decided to meditate on Jesus rather than doing the usual breathing exercises.

The outcome was a feeling of love so strong that it almost made me want to cry.  I actually began to tear up.  It was okay thought, because it was tears of joy rather than tears of sadness.  Just the thought of Jesus brings a feeling of great love.  It is hard to describe.  

I realised that I shouldn't have tried to convince others that Jesus did not exist.  Even if he did not exist in physical form.  I believe he does exist as a spiritual being.  I believe he is the most important and special spiritual being that exists, in the earth life system anyway.  

I was wrong to have doubted his existance.  To think that a being that does not exist can cause me to feel such love is unimaginable.  

This, of course, does not mean I am going to convert to Christianity.  It simply means my newfound respect for Jesus is strong, and as I further meditate on his presence I hope to futher strengthen my relationship with this being.  I truely appreciate what he has done for mankind and for all spirits in our human system.

I love you all,

Vince

I am so glad for you, Vince, that your heart has been opened to this great being.  I'm glad for the happiness that you feel.

Many great beings can open our hearts, but it is the one who is there when we call who really helps the heart to heal.

I will follow in your footsteps today as best I can because I feel that I need to experience this kind of great love today.  It was a very difficult night for me.  But I know the night cannot last forever.

When I look for this great Love outside of myself it is not there.  There is only this world and all of its beauties and all of its follies. It is an amazing world but it is not Real.

It is only when we look within that we can find what we seek.  

As He said, the kingdom of heaven is within you.

much love to you, Vince,      blink

:D

Awesome.  As long as your heart is open He's there waiting to love you.  

Wonderful Dude, and thank you for sharing:

Even though I speak of Christ, believe it when I say that I'm not a fundamentalist.

Regarding his physical incarnation, that happened a couple of thousand years ago, he's been misrepresented in various ways, and who he is in spirit goes way beyond what a physical body could mean. You can't get help from his body, but you can get help from his spirit. I sure have.

I was shown this sequence of images one night before I started to dissassociate Christ from fundamentalism. First I was shown a crucifix. This made me uptight because of my prejudices. Next I was shown a headless, armless, and legless manikin with a white fur coat with black polka dots placed on a department store floor.  I received the mental message, "they killed him, they put him on display, they spotted his reputation." Next I experienced mysef sitting at my piano. I pressed a high C note. I received the mental message, "he represents the highest consciousness there is."

The other night I was meditating. I was in an expanded state of awareness. Even though my state of being was very alive energetically, I felt divine peace. The image of Jesus appeared to me and gave me a few messages. My feelings for him were very positive.

Regarding tears, I've found that tears come to my eyes when I experience divine love.

 That is a beautiful post Vince, thank you for sharing your experiences with us.  



I Am Dude wrote on Mar 12^th, 2007 at 5:07am:

I was wrong to have doubted his existance.  To think that a being that does not exist can cause me to feel such love is unimaginable.

 Nah, its not wrong to think or feel that and in some respects its kind of understandable.  When i was younger, and researching early Christianity, while i was drawn to Yeshua and his teachings about universal love, etc., i was very repulsed by the Church and its history, the things they did and allowed in the name of Christ.  

  I feel that if i didn't have a strong karmic connection to Yeshua and his Total self, i probably would have grown up thinking and feeling very similar to what you've felt and thought, that it ALL was a bunch of hooey or extremely exaggerated, etc.  There is nothing wrong with honest skepticism.

 Christianity as a religion and religious force, has done a lot of good for the world, but it has caused so much destruction and suffering as well.  Religiously, i've always leaned somewhat more to the Eastern, especially like Buddhism partly because the history of same has been much more tolerant and actually practicing what they teach.    Also because from a young age, things like karma, other lives, etc. just made sense to me on a deep level.



Quote:

This, of course, does not mean I am going to convert to Christianity.  It simply means my newfound respect for Jesus is strong, and as I further meditate on his presence I hope to futher strengthen my relationship with this being.  I truely appreciate what he has done for mankind and for all spirits in our human system.

 Hah!  No need to my friend.   There are plenty of us who believe in the role of the Christ, and the importance of this role, who aren't operating from within mainstream, orthodox, or dogmatic/overly-structured Christian belief systems.

 The way i look at it, is that we are all ultimately equal especially in the eyes of Source, because we are all connected and like One large self.  But at the same time, there are many different, individual, and unique parts within that Whole and because of that, and freewill, we are all operating within different states of consciousness which are either more expanded (more inclusive), or more contracted (less inclusive), and there is the most expanded state where an individual consciousness is All inclusive and consciously aware of and intune with all other consciousnesses.

 I, like Recoverer, believe that Yeshua and Christ both represent that most expanded state of being, of which all of us originally were part of before we decided to move out of it for whatever reason.  And we're all working to get back to that state of beingness, cause well for one, its just feels a heck of a lot more good than any other state.

  Yeshua as a Soul, or Total self/Disk, is not greater or lesser than any of us in the ultimate sense, but he has had and does have a pretty unique role (and the way he developed in the Earth system and before) in all of this within this particular Universe.

 For his dedication to helping all of us regardless of what we do or don't do, what we believe or don't believe, for his faithfulness, and sticking to the ways of Source even while a physical personality like us, i highly, highly respect him and i'm extremely grateful to him for his continual and consistent unconditional help to all of us.

 Much appreciation to you for sharing, and much respect for you and your willingness to be open.  

 

Hi vince i think its great what you have written of Jesus,and i know that Jesus thinks that im worth it and he loves me ,so ive definetly have got a freind.

Love and God bless Juditha

great thread. J does represent PUL. sometimes I wonder if he hadn't of come here, what kind of religion would be here now? Maybe a different religion to follow, but we would still mess up any religion, no matter what it was because of two ways to look at everything, or duality world.

since I think love is the way, the heart path, I'm totally in alignment with J, but I do not call myself a fundamentalist, nor a Christian, but I might call myself a Christian mystic if I were forced to label myself.

I do think I like Buddha and his laughter as well as I like to meditate on J.
I would if I saw J, oil his feet for hours if he'd let me. lol.  yes, how can you not appreciate one who speaks of that he would die for all of us?
if I had a love this big I would be on the other side right now.

I knew Dude never meant to be rude... :) we just want to understand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/spiritvideo/Alysia/myspace2/dovec.gif

Sananda (Jesus Christ) on "Love - the purpose of Karma" :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/Hilarion_JesusChristSananda_On_Love.htm

More on/from Sananda (Jesus Christ), Mother Mary (Miram) and Mary Magdalene :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/Hilarion_On_JesusChrist.htm

"The power of Christ compels you."

C. S. LEWIS'S ENCOUNTER WITH GOD OR CHRIST ON A BUS:

C. S. Lewis was a prolific writer and a famous Oxford Classics professor.  He inspired his friend Tolkien to write "The Lord of the Rings."   "The Shadowlands" is my favorite movie on the theme of dying.  It chronicles C. S. Lewis's grief process as he deals with the dying of his new wife, whom he has known for a long time, but only recently fallen in love with and married shortly before her affliction with cancer.  It is one of the tenderest movies I've ever seen.  

Like you, Dude, C. S. Lewis has an important experience of divine presence on a bus.  I thought you might be interested in detecting the similarities and differences from your own experience.   I will quote two passages from Lewis's book 'Surprised by Joy."  

"The odd thing was that before God closed in on me, I was in fact offered what now appears a moment of wholly free choice.  I was going up Headington Hill on...a bus.   Without words, and
..almost without images, a fact about myself was somehow presented to me.  I became aware that I was holding something at bay, or shutting something out.  Or, if you like, that I was wearing some stiff clothing, like corsets, or even a suit of armor, as if I were a lobster.  I felt myself being, there and then, given a free choice.  I could open the door or keep it shut; I could unbuckle the armor or keep it on.  Neither choice was presented as a duty; no threat or promise was attached to either, though I knew that to open the door or take off the corset meant the incalculable.  The choice appeared to be momentous but it was also strangely unemotional.   I was moved by no desires or fears....I chose to open, to unbuckle, to loosen the rein..I felt as if I were a man of snow at long last beginning to melt.  The melting was starting in my back--drip-drip and presently trickle-trickle.  I rather disliked the feeling (p. 225)."  

"I know very well when, but hardly how, the final step was taken.  I was driven to Whipsnade [zoo] one sunny morning.  When we set out, I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo, I did.   Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought.  Nor in great emotion. ..It was more like when a man, after long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.  And it was, like that moment on the...bus, ambiguous (p. 237)."

His experience, and perhaps yours, illustrates Jesus' saying about the mystery of transforming encounters with God's Holy Spirit: "You can hear the wind, but can't tell where it comes from or where it is giong.  Even so, you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit (John 3:8)."

Don

You alright Dude  :) I do aplogise for biting your head off; it has being weighing on my conscious ever since although it was done with love and care for you because if I didn't care for you I would have ignored you - i am but an ant though just a bit of a bossy ant at it!  Vince I think your posts have a maturity and insight beyond your years and you sound like a fine man.  The world's a better place with someone like you in it.  Glory.

What a wonderful story of CS Lewis on the bus  :) I didn't know he and Tolkien were friends - that's amazing.

Love
Caryn

C. S. LEWIS'S ENCOUNTER WITH GOD OR CHRIST ON A BUS:

C. S. Lewis was a prolific writer and a famous Oxford Classics professor.  He inspired his friend Tolkien to write "The Lord of the Rings."   "The Shadowlands" is my favorite movie on the theme of dying.  It chronicles C. S. Lewis's grief process as he deals with the dying of his new wife, whom he has known for a long time, but only recently fallen in love with and married shortly before her affliction with cancer.  It is one of the tenderest movies I've ever seen.  

Like you, Dude, C. S. Lewis has an important experience of divine presence on a bus.  I thought you might be interested in detecting the similarities and differences from your own experience.   I will quote two passages from Lewis's book 'Surprised by Joy."  

"The odd thing was that before God closed in on me, I was in fact offered what now appears a moment of wholly free choice.  I was going up Headington Hill on...a bus.   Without words, and
..almost without images, a fact about myself was somehow presented to me.  I became aware that I was holding something at bay, or shutting something out.  Or, if you like, that I was wearing some stiff clothing, like corsets, or even a suit of armor, as if I were a lobster.  I felt myself being, there and then, given a free choice.  I could open the door or keep it shut; I could unbuckle the armor or keep it on.  Neither choice was presented as a duty; no threat or promise was attached to either, though I knew that to open the door or take off the corset meant the incalculable.  The choice appeared to be momentous but it was also strangely unemotional.   I was moved by no desires or fears....I chose to open, to unbuckle, to loosen the rein..I felt as if I were a man of snow at long last beginning to melt.  The melting was starting in my back--drip-drip and presently trickle-trickle.  I rather disliked the feeling (p. 225)."  

"I know very well when, but hardly how, the final step was taken.  I was driven to Whipsnade [zoo] one sunny morning.  When we set out, I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo, I did.   Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought.  Nor in great emotion. ..It was more like when a man, after long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.  And it was, like that moment on the...bus, ambiguous (p. 237)."

His experience, and perhaps yours, illustrates Jesus' saying about the mystery of transforming encounters with God's Holy Spirit: "You can hear the wind, but can't tell where it comes from or where it is giong.  Even so, you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit (John 3:8)."

Don
*****************
I don't think it is time to start comparing Dude to C.S. Lewis,
Don. For one thing, I'd like to think Dude isn't going to mutate
into a pompous, know-it-all pseudo-intellectual who specializes
in "Jesuitical arguments" (the kind which have their conclusion
already known, as apologists for religious orthodoxy are wont to have.) Not to mention...
-C.S. Lewis was a fundamentalist, who believed in hell-fire and
brimstone (or the mid-twentieth century "polite" version
thereof. He WAS a believer in eternal-torture-of-nonbelievers
in any case, and that puts him right down there with Caligula,
Nero, and Pol Pot as far as morality goes.)
-C.S. Lewis created second-rate fantasy fiction aimed at programming
the minds of children (even his buddy J.R.R. Tolkien HATED the
Narnia books. That says something, maybe..? Sort of like L. Ron
Hubbard and his "Battlefield Earth" novel-cum-literary abomination.)
-C.S. Lewis was a BANALIST (like so many literalist Christians in
America today) who made a big deal out of other people's sex lives
(he seems to have been horrified at the prospect of anything other
than MARRIED sex, in the missionary position - at the same time,
there is some suspicion that he was deviant himself in this arena of
life!)
Say what you like... and I'm sure that Dude has MADE YOUR DAY today,
Don. Is he like my buddy A., who began as a guy with some unusual, but fascinating ideas (A. was a "pagan", don't know what Dude calls himself) and ended up a fundie (converted by an old security guard at the mill where he works) who tried to convert me with threats of a fiery "Hell", and whom I now frankly find myself avoiding? Could be. Nonetheless...
I have a hard time imagining Dude (as little as I know of him) fitting
in well with the corporate executive board at Wal-Mart, or a Diamond
convention at Amway. (Unlike my buddy A. here in Montana.) And somehow, I don't see him packing his bags and heading
for Colorado Springs, CO anytime soon...

B-man

"The power of Christ compels you."
*****************
Fred Phelps from Topeka, Kansas (he of "GodHatesFags.com" fame) claims the same thing.
He's the guy who protests the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq
and holds up placards of the soldiers burning in "Hell", in case you
didn't know.
Head on over to his website and read his site FAQs, you'll see I
ain't lyin'...
(If Fred Phelps is right about the nature of reality, then human existence
and the universe are abject and dire things, indeed.)

B-man

Chum,

How would you know?  You don't read books and you clearly have not read much of Lewis.  I challenge you to either document your claims by book and page or resign yourself to the status of just another notch on my pistol-Bible.  

[Chum:] -"C.S. Lewis was a fundamentalist, who believed in hell-fire and
brimstone (or the mid-twentieth century "polite" version
thereof. He WAS a believer in eternal-torture-of-nonbelievers
in any case, and that puts him right down there with Caligula,
Nero, and Pol Pot as far as morality goes.)"

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  You need to be more than a Googlefritz and actually read his witty book "The Great Divorce."  The book tells the story of a bus load of tourists from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven.  where each spirit is given the chance to enter Heaven if he is willing to forego whatever precious sin he hugs to himself.  Each tourist rationalizes why he wouldn't be comfortable in Heaven.  Like many New Agers, Lewis believed that one chooses to remain in Hell and is not consigned there by an angry God.   Fundamentalists declined to bring him over to the USA to lecture because he drank booze and smoked a pipe!

[Chum:] "C.S. Lewis created second-rate fantasy fiction aimed at programming
the minds of children (even his buddy J.R.R. Tolkien HATED the
Narnia books."
______________

Duh, adults don't usually enjoy children's books, Chum. Kermit the frog (Jim Henson) spoke at Harvard's commencement when i was there and we enjoyed his act.   But few of us still watched "Sesame Street!"  Besdes, Lewis's kiddie books must be pretty good to be made into a Hollywood blockbuster movie. In any case, since when do you have to agree with everything someone believes to learn from his experience?  

Don

Chum,

My "the power of Christ compels you" comment was meant as a joke.  It was taken from the movie "The Exorcist," when the two catholic priests were using that chant to get the demon to stop levitating the poor afflicted child.

Dude, I am touched at the experience you had.  I am Jewish, but a big fan of the teachings of JC, and the love associated with him.

I would put it to you that you should not feel guilty for your previous threads and doubt here.  And there is no point in saying things such as you doubt his physical incarnation but not the spiritual one, as there is no proving the physical.

Matthew

I am clearly far too cynical...I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I think that means I should go to bed.

Chum,

How would you know?  You don't read books and you clearly have not read much of Lewis.  I challenge you to either document your claims by book and page or resign yourself to the status of just another notch on my pistol-Bible.
*****************
-Be careful what you wish for, Don.
__________

Chum: -"C.S. Lewis was a fundamentalist, who believed in hell-fire and
brimstone (or the mid-twentieth century "polite" version
thereof. He WAS a believer in eternal-torture-of-nonbelievers
in any case, and that puts him right down there with Caligula,
Nero, and Pol Pot as far as morality goes.)"

Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
*****************
-Oh, Yeah??? Keep reading, Don old boy...
__________

 You need to be more than a Googlefritz and actually read his witty book "The Great Divorce."  The book tells the story of a bus load of tourists from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven.  where each spirit is given the chance to enter Heaven if he is willing to forego whatever precious sin he hugs to himself.  Each tourist rationalizes why he wouldn't be comfortable in Heaven.  Like many New Agers, Lewis believed that one chooses to remain in Hell and is not consigned there by an angry God.   Fundamentalists declined to bring him over to the USA to lecture because he drank booze and smoked a pipe!
*****************
-I've read "Great Divorce." One scene from it stuck with me...
One of the "ghosts" was converted, as you'll recall. Did he stick
around to help his fellow hellions to see the light? HELL, NO!
Instead, he hopped on his mangy cayuse (O.K., a fancy-schmancy horse then) and went galloping off into the sunset (or whatever.)
Then there's the lady who confronts her former husband. She may have had her reasons to not "need" him anymore, but she came across like some kind of robot in her dealing with him...
Compare this typical "I got mine, so screw you" Christian attitude, with the eastern, reincarnationist Buddhist one... the "Boddhisattva." The "boddhisattva" has become "liberated" from the need for further reincarnation, but CHOOSES to come back to this "vale of tears" to enlighten his fellow men!
Which attitude do YOU find more noble, Don???
As for the booze and pipe, well, that was the 1950's and before. Head down South to a KKK rally back in those days (Good Southern Baptists all!) and see the blue clouds of tobacco smoke and free-flowing streams of moonshine whiskey. (My guess is that Lewis' habits were more offensive to the "little brown church" Northern Methodists and such, than the REAL fundies - who were still mostly "South of the Mason-Dixon" in those days.)
Sorry Don, but C.S. Lewis would fit right in with Ted Haggard, Pat Roberston, and Tim Lahaye if he'd been born 50 years later than he was. He wasn't a modern fundie, TRUE! He was a "proto-fundie." (G.K. Chesterson, another British "proto-fundie" comes to mind; men of their times, perhaps?) But in the end, where's the difference???
__________

Duh, adults don't usually enjoy children's books, Chum.
*****************
-Wanna bet?
Not only are Americans more spoiled and immature than ever (look at what passes for prime-time TV these days) BUT many an adult will tell you that one of the things they like about being a parent, is that they get to go to kid's movies again. (Although what with the crap they're calling animation these days, you gotta wonder. I'll bet "Finding Nemo" is constantly playing in EVERY theater in "Hell", but again I DO digress!) OH, and one more thing...
How do you explain the popularity of Harry Potter with so  many adults? Maybe it's because that just as with "Narnia", MAGIC appeals to "children of all ages", as old P.T. Barnum (a hero of mine) might have said. (He also once said something about "suckers", but that's another story...)
(And why IS it that Scooby-Doo is still so popular today? Maybe because all those early '70's kids grew up and watched it with THEIR kids? I wonder why they'd put themselves to so much torment, they must truly be selfless saints..!)
__________
Kermit the frog (Jim Henson) spoke at Harvard's commencement when i was there and we enjoyed his act.   But few of us still watched "Sesame Street!"  Besides, Lewis's kiddie books must be pretty good to be made into a Hollywood blockbuster movie.
*****************
-So what? "Battlefield Earth" by L. Ron Hubbard got made into a big
Hollywood movie as well. (Now it IS true, that "Battlefield Earth" managed to nudge aside Ed Wood's "Plan 9 From Outer Space" as the official worst movie of all time. "Lion/Witch/Wardrobe" didn't sink that far, but official reviews for it have been spotty at best. And yes, American fundies have tended to rate it better than normal folk...)
BTW, DO NOT TELL ME that the "Narnia" books weren't Christian propaganda. (Just like "Great Divorce", I've read all of 'em...)
Have a Nice Day,

B-man

B-man,

Over the years, you have steadfastly refused to read anything relevant to the points being debated.   Have you really read "The Great Dviroce?"  It's hard to believe because your critique overlooks the fact that it is a witty satire and its characters are not intended to be role models.  As a satire, it received a rave review from the New Yorker!  In any case, the book implies the possibility of choosing to leave Hell--hardly a Fundie notion.  And you ducked my main challenge--to show me why C. S. Lewis deserves your characterization as a fire and brtimstone Fundie.  

Dude had a moving spiritual experience on a bus and decided to share it with us.  So I thought he might interested in a famous spiritual experience on a bus.  I never suggested that Dude's experience was the same, that Dude should emulate C. S. Lewis, or that Lewis's ideas were totally beyond reproach.   So as usual, your rant is totally irrelevant.

Don    

B-man,

Over the years, you have steadfastly refused to read anything relevant to the points being debated.   Have you really read "The Great Dviroce?"  It's hard to believe because your critique overlooks the fact that it is a witty satire and its characters are not intended to be role models.  As a satire, it received a rave review from the New Yorker!  In any case, the book implies the possibility of choosing to leave Hell--hardly a Fundie notion.  And you ducked my main challenge--to show me why C. S. Lewis deserves your characterization as a fire and brtimstone Fundie.  

Dude had a moving spiritual experience on a bus and decided to share it with us.  So I thought he might interested in a famous spiritual experience on a bus.  I never suggested that Dude's experience was the same, that Dude should emulate C. S. Lewis, or that Lewis's ideas were totally beyond reproach.   So as usual, your rant is totally irrelevant.

Don
*****************
O.K., call it irrelevant if you like. I'm just tired of seeing everyone
from "Campus Crusade For Christ" (with its odious Josh MacDowell
materials) to my knucklehead buddy A. trotting out C.S. Lewis as their
ring-champ.
It reminds me of Amway, with their hero "Dexter Yager" who made
it big selling soap back in the 50's or whatever. (Don't they have any
more RECENT success stories in Amway? Or for that matter, doesn't literalist Christianity have any other post-1900 intellectual heavyweights aside from C.S. Lewis? - to the extent that he WAS a heavyweight, and not just a good social climber within the confines of Oxford University...)
Just like I lost my best buddy ("Gene") back in 1992 to Amway (all he wanted to do was recruit me after he joined it, and eventually I found myself avoiding him) I am now losing my current best friend ("Albert" here in Montana, that is) to C.S. Lewis-quoting Christianity - I'm ducking HIS company now!
So forgive me, if I'm a wee bit snarky here..!

B-man

Harry Potter's modern Chum!  I think everything else is underground because the sensitivity and style might be a bit lost on some people like .. um .. you ..

oooh  :)

B-man,

C. S. Lwisis is an excellent scholar and writer with very impressive academiic contributions, apart from his popular Christian books.  I would recommend neither him nor Josh MacDowell for Christian apologetics.   However, that is my speciality.  So if you [or Dude] would like me to engage certain sources of doubt, I'd be glad to do so.   You only need to ask.  

In the final analysis, though, the approach of Dude and recoverer is far more important than any rationalistic approach.  For example, it is easy to refute the recent pseudo-documentary on Christ's alleged tomb, but such a refutation advances no one's spiritual quest.  There is no substitute for genuine experiential encounters with the risen Christ, which can lead to an empowering personal reliatinship with God, not to mention the potential for a Swedenborgian calibre range of astral exploration.  If it it weren't for such encounters, I myself would have abandoned my Christian faith.  

Have you ever wondered why St. Paul only quotes Jesus a few times.   He is afraid that Christians will transform Christianity into another Jewish legalism.  He does not want people to simply focus on what Jesus taught "back then," but rather on what the risen Christ is communicating to your spirit right now through mystical experience.  If you'd like me to document this point in detail, I'd be glad to do so.  And what is the key to such experiences?   Aside from direct study of His life and teaching, three things: (1) contemplation of both the meaning of PUL and what it might feel like to connect with and experience its Source; (2) the support and prayers of a loving community of like-minded people (e. g. a church, but also a prayer meeting or a support group such as AA);  (3) the quest to detect Christ's presence in your relationship with a troubled brother or sister, whose need you are trying to meet; (

With respect to (3), I feel so privileged to have established regular communication with Dark Knight.  Her need is so great (oppression by ghastly negs), but she is a spiritual warrior and her courage, wisdom, and spirituality shines brightly through her struggles and greatly inspires me.   My dialogue with her sweetens my own relationship with Christ.

Don

Well. Let see Jesus on a bad day.....Taken from the King James bible version.

a) Luke Chapter:19, verse 27-28.......Jesus says to kill his/your enemies!!

b) Luke Chapter 14, verse 26.....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 35-36....Matthew
    Chapter 19, verse 29.....Jesus says to hate /abandon your family!!

c) Matthew Chapter 12, verse 30....Luke Chapter 11, verse 23.....Jesus says
    he that he is not with me is against me!? Sounds like George Bush! What happened
    to free will?

 d) Luke Chapter 12, verse 51-53....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 34.....Jesus says
     he came to cause strife and war. Oh Dear!!!!

  e) Matthew Chapter 5, verse 45....God/Jesus? favours neither good nor evil? Whoops.
      I thought the evil were going to hell?

  f) First Corinthians Chapter 11, verse 14....God hates long hair..Jesus, the barber awaits!

 g) Matthew Chapter 6, verse 5-6....Jesus says to Dont pray in public places. Hey. What
     about the churches. They cost us a fortune to build!

  And here's one  from the old testament. I just couldn't help myself.

  A) Deuteronomy Chapter 21, verse 20-21....God says it's OK to kill your unruly or
      rebellious children. Sorry kids, can you fetch me that pile of stones over there!

   ...................Regards. Darth. May both sides of the force be with you.
 
 
     

Regarding what Darth had to say, fortunately Dude was wise enough to open his heart and find out the truth of the matter.

Darth, if you spoke to people in a time period where communication was like it was during the time period of Jesus, 70-100 years passed before people recorded what you said, people translated your words without referring to you, don't you think some errors would occur?

Jesus doesn't have bad days. He lives in an eternal moment of divine perfection.

[“Well. Let’s see Jesus on a bad day.”]..Actually, Darth, it’s your bad day.  Due to your unique blend of arrogance and ignorance, I will make constructive use of you as my whipping boy.

[“Taken from the King James bible version.”]   Of course, since you just googled this and would otherwise have no clue on how to put this together.  The KJV is based on later and more corrupt Greek manuscripts and is just about the most inaccurate Bible translation.

[“Luke Chapter:19, verse 27-28.......Jesus says to kill his/your enemies!!”]  
No, you need to actually read what you mindlessly quote.   The speaker is “the nobleman” in the Parable of the Pounds.  Parables are symbolic stories based on a single point of comparison in which, unlike allegories, each detail is not separately symbolic.  The central character in most of Jesus’ parables is often either morally or intellectually flawed and the parable cannot properly be grasped until this flaw is recognized.   You can no more equate the nobleman’s statement with Jesus’ own views than you can equate God with the unjust vineyard owner (Matthew 20:1-15), the unjust manager (Luke 16:1-8). the unjust judge (Luke 18:1-7), the cranky neighbor roused from slumber (Luke
11:5-8), the dumb farmer whose seed generally falls in all the wrong places (Mark 4:3-8),  or the irresponsible shepherd who leaves his entire flock in danger to pursue one lost sheep (Luke 15:3-8).  Yet in all 7 parables, the flawed central characters are likened to God.  Sometimes, the villainy of the central figure is quite subtle.  For example, the novice interpreter would not realize that it is a transgression of Jewish law to sow mustard seed in your garden (Luke 13;18-19). Jesus’ pedagogy routinely features shock tactics and Semitic hyperbole to make people think. The suppressed premise is often, “You can learn a lot even from an idiot or scoundrel like this.      

[“Luke Chapter 14, verse 26.....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 35-36....Matthew
Chapter 19, verse 29.....Jesus says to hate /abandon your family!!”]
In Aramaic idiom “hate” means “loves more than.”   Thus, in Matthew’s parallel to Luke 14:26, he rightly translates “hate” as “loves more than (10:37-38).”  In Matthew 10:35-36, Jesus is announcing the fulfilment of Micah 7:6.  The expression “I have come not to bring peace, but a sword” is an Aramaic idiom to express the inevitable family-based persecution of new believers, not the desired result.   This also explains your misunderstanding of Matthew 19:29.  Jesus’ followers were often forced to choose between family loyalty or their nowfound faith.   The same point applies to your mischaracterization of Matthew 12:51-53.  I know this will come as a shock to you, Darth, but what Jesus actually taught was: e. g. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall bew called children of God (Matthew 5:9).”   “I have spoken these things to you, so that you may have peace (John 16:33).”  And Jesus of course taught His disciples to honor their parents (e. g. Matthew 19:17-19),

[“Luke Chapter 12, verse 51-53....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 34.....Jesus says he came to cause strife and war. Oh Dear!!!!”]

O dear, indeed!  You are clueless!   You apparently don’t realize that Jesus taught: “Those who take to the sword will perish by the sword (Matthew 26:52).”  “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bles those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you (Luke 6:27-28).”  And again, you ignore  the fact that Jesus is announcing the fulfilment of Micah 7:6, not reveling in the family discord His message sparks.

[“Matthew Chapter 12, verse 30....Luke Chapter 11, verse 23.....Jesus says he that he is not with me is against me!? Sounds like George Bush! What happened to free will?”]
“Jesus taught the opposite of what you imply: “Whoever is not against us is for us (Mark 9:40).” In this context, He defends the right of a non-Christian Jew to perform exorcisms in His name without first studying Jesus’ teachings!  The verse you cite has specific application to the battle egainst the forces of evil in our world.   Jesus’ point is that if you are apathetic towards evil,  you oppose what Jesus stands for as surely as if you actively reject Him.  
 
[“Matthew Chapter 5, verse 45....God/Jesus? favours neither good nor evil? Whoops. I thought the evil were going to hell?”]
________________________
I will quote this verse to allow the reader to detect Darth’s status as a lost ball in the tall weeds: “He [God] makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45).”  Whoops, I hate to break this to you, Darth; but God actually favors love and goodness.  But He loves evil people and is also showers them with earthly blessings.  Matthew 5:43-48 is paralleled in Luke 6:27-28, 32-36, where the last verse makes Jesus’ meaning clear: “Be merciful [even to your enemies] as your Father is merciful.”  

[“Matthew Chapter 6, verse 5-6....Jesus says to Dont pray in public places. Hey. What about the churches. They cost us a fortune to build!”]
_________________________________

Clueless to the point is being comical!   Jesus is warning against unpsiritual motivation in public prayer.   He lanents public ostentation and the flaunting of one’s spirituality; He is not attacking corporate prayer (see e. g. Matthew 18:19-20).   “And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to pray in the synagogues and street corners, SO THAT THEY MAY BE SEEN BY OTHERS.  Truly I tell you, they already have their reward (Matthew 6:5).”    

Your nasty comments about non-Gospel texts are equally misinformed, but this is a thread about Jesus; so I will stick to the topic.

Don

Darth.  Even I know that Jesus did not teach those things.  He certainly does not represent them, regardless of what any skewed translantions may read.  Please don't post garbage on my wonderful thread.

-Darth B. - apparrently you haven't done your homework (*sigh*)
**********************
  f) First Corinthians Chapter 11, verse 14....God hates long hair..Jesus, the barber awaits!

-Any fundie preacher (especially the Colorado Springs megachurch
McJesus variety!) will tell you that Jesus actually had SHORT hair.
Yep, Jesus had a flat-top.
I'll bet he had an expensive business suit too, a 100-dollar
monogrammed necktie, and Guccis. (Just wait, I'll bet that's going to be
the next big archaeological find in Jerusalem! That, and a curiously
anachronistic copy of Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich"...)
Oh, and he didn't drink wine either. He drank GRAPE JUICE instead
(never mind how he kept fresh, unfermented grape juice from spoiling
in a pre-refrigeration world, considering it was a VERY seasonal product back then. That's why wine was so common in those days, it's the only thing that would keep..! But our megachurch McJesus preacher friend would tell you that it must've been another miracle. But if so, I
wonder why the Bible doesn't address it as such?)
And would Jesus have sold Amway, too - had it existed in the first century? (I wonder what the preacher would say to that?)
Pretty interesting stuff! (Gotta love those fundies, eh?)

B-man

St John 11v35 : Jesus wept.

For they hated him without a cause.

St John 15:18,19,25 :  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.  If ye were of the world, the world would love its own; but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you ... But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that it is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

St Luke 11:23 : He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

St John 12:28 :  Father, glorify thy name.  Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

St John 21:15 : Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

With all my heart.

Darth.  Even I know that Jesus did not teach those things.  He certainly does not represent them, regardless of what any skewed translantions may read.  Please don't post garbage on my wonderful thread.
*****************
-O.K., Dude. I understand that you've had an experience, which (to you
at least) indicates that far from being a vicious torture-lover (as almost all CHURCHES make him out to be) - Jesus Christ
is a pretty fine fellow. Nothing wrong with that.
BUT, do you then submit, that most of the Bible is either forged, or irrelevant then? (With all of its blood-letting, stoning of adulterers/disobedient sons, ect; and swords, sorcery and sacrifices - including the idea that Jesus was a human sacrifice for our "sins", whatever "sin" means..! And THEN, there's the entire Book Of REVELATION to consider!!!)
In other words... if Jesus is for real, then we SHOULDN'T consider the
Bible an authoritative text for dealing with him/her/it??? And we DEFINITELY should ignore the "orthodox" views that the various
CHURCHES have for sale (considering that, whether Catholic or
Protestant - their views come down to us via the post-Constantine Roman church and, Constantine's Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, of which our present-day Bible is a product of...)
What say you, Dude?

B-man

Chumley, if i may say something;

The Bible is a Living Book as our God is a Living God ..

you should just stick to reading the sunday times mate.

Chumley, if i may say something;

The Bible is a Living Book as our God is a Living God ..

you should just stick to reading the sunday times mate.
*****************
Yeah, you got a point there, Augie.
The Sunday Times is WAY less of an insufferable wade
than the Bible. Why DID God have to make his "instruction
manual" such a horrific bore to read? I have the UTMOST respect for
ANYONE who's able to read that monstrosity cover-to-cover (which about 99% of Christians haven't done anyway, including most clergy! Only
the Book of Mormon is a bigger torture to read.)
BTW, you say it's a living book? Then If I acccidentaly
drop a Bible on my toe, does it feel more pain than I do?
(Or does it "feel my pain"..?)

B-man

lol well the Begats are quite long but if one reads the Bible from the Old Testament to the New Testament one gets a firm grasp of 'what it is all about'.  It is said the very demons are frightened of God so if there has been any changing in the Bible let God be the Judge.  He gave us the Bible for a reason and God's reasons are never underminded.

I do feel the pain Chum.  I feel God's pain - He say's in the Bible 'Where do I find my rest'?  Does he find rest in us?
God's coming for His rest.

The Book is living because God's Word is a key which unlocks the door for everyone to enter and take what is rightfully theirs from His Word and by this the Word becomes the Staff and Rod which comforth everyone to their need.  Each one of us is counted - everyone.

Aye; it is living and it is magic and it is real and it is in the name of love.

Love you Chumley.

Quote:

BUT, do you then submit, that most of the Bible is either forged, or irrelevant then? (With all of its blood-letting, stoning of adulterers/disobedient sons, ect; and swords, sorcery and sacrifices - including the idea that Jesus was a human sacrifice for our "sins", whatever "sin" means..! And THEN, there's the entire Book Of REVELATION to consider!!!) In other words... if Jesus is for real, then we SHOULDN'T consider the Bible an authoritative text for dealing with him/her/it??? And we DEFINITELY should ignore the "orthodox" views that the various CHURCHES have for sale (considering that, whether Catholic or Protestant - their views come down to us via the post-Constantine Roman church and, Constantine's Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, of which our present-day Bible is a product of...) What say you, Dude?

Come on now, Chummeister!  You know me better than that.  We were on the same side of a debate regarding Jesus's physical existance and the bible's legitemacy just a month ago!  

The experience I had was 100% spiritual.  No bible involved.  No churces involved.  

So lets say the experience I had was legitemate and Jesus is a real spiritual being.  This does not mean that anything in the bible was correct.  This does not mean that anything the churches preach is correct.  All it means is that Jesus and his love are real.  That is all I believe.  

BUT, do you then submit, that most of the Bible is either forged, or irrelevant then? (With all of its blood-letting, stoning of adulterers/disobedient sons, ect; and swords, sorcery and sacrifices - including the idea that Jesus was a human sacrifice for our "sins", whatever "sin" means..! And THEN, there's the entire Book Of REVELATION to consider!!!)
In other words... if Jesus is for real, then we SHOULDN'T consider the
Bible an authoritative text for dealing with him/her/it??? And we DEFINITELY should ignore the "orthodox" views that the various
CHURCHES have for sale (considering that, whether Catholic or
Protestant - their views come down to us via the post-Constantine Roman church and, Constantine's Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, of which our present-day Bible is a product of...)
What say you, Dude? [/quote]

Come on now, Chummeister!  You know me better than that.  We were on the same side of a debate regarding Jesus's physical existance and the bible's legitemacy just a month ago!  

The experience I had was 100% spiritual.  No bible involved.  No churces involved.  

So lets say the experience I had was legitemate and Jesus is a real spiritual being.  This does not mean that anything in the bible was correct.  This does not mean that anything the churches preach is correct.  All it means is that Jesus and his love are real.  That is all I believe.
*****************
Might it be then, that Jesus actually does exist...
As a "god-form" (more simply, a powerful construct of
the collective human consciousness which has achieved
a high (perhaps full!) degree of autonomy, power, and intelligence
due to the HUGE numbers of humans who have had faith in his/its
existence, and relevance to their lives, for so many
centuries?
In other words, Jesus didn't create us in "his" image, WE
created "Him" in OUR IMAGE! It doesn't make Jesus any
"less real" (assuming  that Reality is fundamentally MENTAL, and
not physical) but it DOES require an adjustment of the popular
human conception of man's relationship to "him" (e.g., we
shouldn't regard him as the "Almighty Drill Sergeant Who
Will Kick Our A$$es In The Hereafter If We Don't Unthinkingly
Obey "Him" Like Trembling Little Wiener Dogs" like most
churchmen and theologians would have us do.)
Just one theory,

B-man

Berserk wrote on Mar 14^th, 2007 at 11:38pm:

[“Well. Let’s see Jesus on a bad day.”]..Actually, Darth, it’s your bad day.  Due to your unique blend of arrogance and ignorance, I will make constructive use of you as my whipping boy. [“Taken from the King James bible version.”]   Of course, since you just googled this and would otherwise have no clue on how to put this together.  The KJV is based on later and more corrupt Greek manuscripts and is just about the most inaccurate Bible translation. [“Luke Chapter:19, verse 27-28.......Jesus says to kill his/your enemies!!”]   No, you need to actually read what you mindlessly quote.   The speaker is “the nobleman” in the Parable of the Pounds.  Parables are symbolic stories based on a single point of comparison in which, unlike allegories, each detail is not separately symbolic.  The central character in most of Jesus’ parables is often either morally or intellectually flawed and the parable cannot properly be grasped until this flaw is recognized.   You can no more equate the nobleman’s statement with Jesus’ own views than you can equate God with the unjust vineyard owner (Matthew 20:1-15), the unjust manager (Luke 16:1-8). the unjust judge (Luke 18:1-7), the cranky neighbor roused from slumber (Luke 11:5-8), the dumb farmer whose seed generally falls in all the wrong places (Mark 4:3-8),  or the irresponsible shepherd who leaves his entire flock in danger to pursue one lost sheep (Luke 15:3-8).  Yet in all 7 parables, the flawed central characters are likened to God.  Sometimes, the villainy of the central figure is quite subtle.  For example, the novice interpreter would not realize that it is a transgression of Jewish law to sow mustard seed in your garden (Luke 13;18-19). Jesus’ pedagogy routinely features shock tactics and Semitic hyperbole to make people think. The suppressed premise is often, “You can learn a lot even from an idiot or scoundrel like this.       [“Luke Chapter 14, verse 26.....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 35-36....Matthew Chapter 19, verse 29.....Jesus says to hate /abandon your family!!”] In Aramaic idiom “hate” means “loves more than.”   Thus, in Matthew’s parallel to Luke 14:26, he rightly translates “hate” as “loves more than (10:37-38).”  In Matthew 10:35-36, Jesus is announcing the fulfilment of Micah 7:6.  The expression “I have come not to bring peace, but a sword” is an Aramaic idiom to express the inevitable family-based persecution of new believers, not the desired result.   This also explains your misunderstanding of Matthew 19:29.  Jesus’ followers were often forced to choose between family loyalty or their nowfound faith.   The same point applies to your mischaracterization of Matthew 12:51-53.  I know this will come as a shock to you, Darth, but what Jesus actually taught was: e. g. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall bew called children of God (Matthew 5:9).”   “I have spoken these things to you, so that you may have peace (John 16:33).”  And Jesus of course taught His disciples to honor their parents (e. g. Matthew 19:17-19), [“Luke Chapter 12, verse 51-53....Matthew Chapter 10, verse 34.....Jesus says he came to cause strife and war. Oh Dear!!!!”] O dear, indeed!  You are clueless!   You apparently don’t realize that Jesus taught: “Those who take to the sword will perish by the sword (Matthew 26:52).”  “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bles those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you (Luke 6:27-28).”  And again, you ignore  the fact that Jesus is announcing the fulfilment of Micah 7:6, not reveling in the family discord His message sparks. [“Matthew Chapter 12, verse 30....Luke Chapter 11, verse 23.....Jesus says he that he is not with me is against me!? Sounds like George Bush! What happened to free will?”] “Jesus taught the opposite of what you imply: “Whoever is not against us is for us (Mark 9:40).” In this context, He defends the right of a non-Christian Jew to perform exorcisms in His name without first studying Jesus’ teachings!  The verse you cite has specific application to the battle egainst the forces of evil in our world.   Jesus’ point is that if you are apathetic towards evil,  you oppose what Jesus stands for as surely as if you actively reject Him.     [“Matthew Chapter 5, verse 45....God/Jesus? favours neither good nor evil? Whoops. I thought the evil were going to hell?”] ________________________ I will quote this verse to allow the reader to detect Darth’s status as a lost ball in the tall weeds: “He [God] makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45).”  Whoops, I hate to break this to you, Darth; but God actually favors love and goodness.  But He loves evil people and is also showers them with earthly blessings.  Matthew 5:43-48 is paralleled in Luke 6:27-28, 32-36, where the last verse makes Jesus’ meaning clear: “Be merciful [even to your enemies] as your Father is merciful.”   [“Matthew Chapter 6, verse 5-6....Jesus says to Dont pray in public places. Hey. What about the churches. They cost us a fortune to build!”] _________________________________ Clueless to the point is being comical!   Jesus is warning against unpsiritual motivation in public prayer.   He lanents public ostentation and the flaunting of one’s spirituality; He is not attacking corporate prayer (see e. g. Matthew 18:19-20).   “And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to pray in the synagogues and street corners, SO THAT THEY MAY BE SEEN BY OTHERS.  Truly I tell you, they already have their reward (Matthew 6:5).”     Your nasty comments about non-Gospel texts are equally misinformed, but this is a thread about Jesus; so I will stick to the topic. Don

More endless scriptual 'psycho-babble' from the "The Gospel according to Saint Don" ..
Tell what wonderful version of the bible is the correct one? Should be interesting
checking it up with christian websites....You may have those simple minded members
of this forum fooled with your solely self-centered and personal interpretation of the
new and old testerments, or did you google it up from other authors unknown to us.
Bet you even got a huge library of christian cd's, dvd's, and videos. I know your explanation
of the plagues that befalled the jews in egypt were taken from a documentary we seen
here on australian TV!..Did you buy the video, old boy? Maybe in future you should
quote where the information you write about  is coming from....Hey. Give the authors some
credit....And your interpretation of my quotes from the bible. Apart from your intellectual
replies being nothing but simple evasion from the main quotes(quoting other passages as
to try to steer the readers away from the original passage or words. A mode usually applied
by lawyers, politicians, criminals under interrogation, etc)...and I believe you say you were/
are some harvard professor of theology with students. Past or present...Well how about
giving us your real name, years and date you spent at harvard. Right here publicly on
this forum, or is this another of your fantasies. My sister works for the Dept. of Education,
here in Australia. She can easily email that college to verify your claims, or, does this
scare you?...Does the new age movement you hate so much frighten you that you spend
all this amount of time on it? or, are you really here by subterfuge, rescuing us poor souls
from all those false beliefs that must be from that guy in the red suit with horns. Or, by a
long short. Maybe one in a million. Your christian faith you have doubts about? Remember
what jesus said about those with doubts and lack of faith!!???....

I have been reading posts on this forum since 2000. I have now seen it degrade into
nothing but a sounding board for christians and their allies. All the original strength of
this board have now gone...Linn, Ginny, Gordon Phinn, to name a few. There are many.
Marilyn is still here only to have you insult her in previous posts. She is a real spiritual
person, a long way ahead of you. ...William Buhlman closed down his forum last year
or the year before. In an email he told me it was because of the 'bad element' . I found
out later from those former members who started a new forum, it was because of the
christian element constantly harrassing posters(our view is the only true view...Sounds
like your attitude Don about the christian tradition)... I see this forum slowly going the
same way as the Buhlman site, it wont be long it gets those fundy right-wingers telling
us we are all going to hell. Well, we already have that Afikaner lass talking about blasphemy.
....God. Save us from the Boers(Lord Kitchener 1899-1902 Boer War)....Why dont you
just get honest and tell us why you have been, all these years on this New Age site about
Astral explorations and rescues/retrievals...Me. I explore the Astral, like Bruce. Love to do
it his way but I rely on the sleep/trance method...I've also been to a christian hollow
heaven with a look-alike jesus and all..You should have seen the look on his face when I
shouted Jesus!, Jesus!'(telepathically. That's the way we communicate there if you did
not know!?) as he walking down the church aisle in some sort of a procession. I was making
fun at him, and he knew it(the phony jesus I mean) ...Love to meet the real!? one....
Darth...May both sides of the force be with you.


 

Darth, I take it you refering to me as the Afrikaans lass.  That is so funny!  I am English (born zimbabwe) and was active in anti-apartheid in the 70's & 80's protesting against the Afrikaans National Party apartheid regime; my mentors were Rastamen.  In the middle 80's I left the country and joined anti-apartheid London and was actively involved in protests and putting pressure on the National Gov. After two years I came back and in 1994 was proud to vote ANC. A lot of Afrikaans people hated apartheid just as much - we were all supressed under apartheid.  Once apartheid crumbled and the grip of the evilness of this system was destroyed we  became a rainbow nation and respect one another.

But I don't know why I'm telling you this because you have come up with your own preconceived ideas. As you have with Christ.  

And you say you are an astral traveler - without knowing Christ? Oh how they sleep under the lull of the moon.  Believing in the internet cosmology 'greys' - creating your own haven of lower astral realm. How weak are your minds?

Chumley you made quite a profound and philosophical statement  ;)

Quote:

In other words, Jesus didn't create us in "his" image, WE created "Him" in OUR IMAGE! It doesn't make Jesus any "less real"

Darth, what image of God are you going to live with when your physical body falls off?  Be careful.

Darth, readers will carefully notice that your tirade is utterly bereft of even the attempt to defend your anti-biblical screed. Your insinuation that I, need to google my material is a projection of your own relative illiteracy.  As a Harvard PhD in Scripture, I can read the Bible in its original languages and use that ability to gauge the best translations.   Most of the modern translations are far superior to the KJV.   As for your suggestion that I get much of my materials from CDs, I own no Bible-related CDs, but I do own and practice with the complete set of TMI Gateway CDs.   As uncritical as Monroe is in separating genuine astral insights from the spurious, his technology is quite useful.   You long for the good old days of tiresome New Age quackdoodle.  In fact, the board is much more diverse now and therefore much more interesting than, say, 5 years ago.   And of course, graduates of Bruce's course have learned ffrom the discussions and occasionally become disillusioned.  So I am periodically PMd by members so they can explain the real reasons why they've left the site.

Chum, your claim the most of the Bible is "forged" is amusing, but, as usual, misguided.

Don

I did think Darth's tirade was a bit much, as Don you did go point for point on those old tired biblical quotes.  Why is it that both Fundies and anti-Fundies harp on them so much?

Don, you don't fool me for a minute with your talk about New Age quackadoodles or ghettos (though the quack or wackadoodle comment always makes me laugh, disparaging as it is).  You ARE a New Ager in cognito.  You accept much of what is called New Age thought as being true and compatible with christianity.  It is exactly this issue that has kept you on this website - the knowledge that Jesus' true message about Christianity as revealed in the gospels and through Swedenborg is love of God and love of one's neighbor.  I believe that having explorers like Bruce Moen and even OOBDude confirm that they too "feel" that PUL is our purpose in being, sends shivers of energy down your spine - in a way, these non-indoctrinated explorers are confirming what you have found through your studies and personal experiences.  

Isn't it time then to put away your poison pen when dealing with the Darths/Dirk Digglers/and Spitfires out there?


Matthew

Darth Benedict wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 2:42am:

I have been reading posts on this forum since 2000. I have now seen it degrade into nothing but a sounding board for christians and their allies.

 Seems to me, to be a rather extreme and biased judgement and characterization of this site.   There really aren't too many hard core Christian fundamentalists on this site.   I've met some of these in life, and was told by one girl that i was under the influence of Satan for my "unchristian" beliefs like astrology, reincarnation, psychism, etc.   And she was supposedly my friend.  

   Don is much more open minded than the average Christian fundamentalist (or at least than some of the ones i've interacted with), but there are few on this site in any case who go so much purely by scripture and religion.  

 People who are so emotionally against anything "Christian" are just as fundamentalist oriented as the hard core southern Christian type.   I've found that the wisest and most spiritually attune people, are also often the ones who are the most universal in nature, they see truth in many different belief systems whether of any the major religions, or various psychic channels out there.  

 There are some here who don't have much of a taste for dogmatic Christian religion and codified religious beliefs, but who love and respect JC and his message a lot.  It seems that Bruce the actual founder of this site, has a lot of respect for this teacher though he doesn't often talk about him.  Heck in one of his books i believe i remember reading when he was referring to this teacher, he capitalizes a reference to him though it was not at the beginning of the sentence. :o

 We who love Christ and his message but not religion or the church, are not "allies" of religion and religious beliefs or the church by any means.   Though it might be hard for you and others to understand, you can love the message and the teacher without loving the dogma which has sprung around same.   There are some big difference between Yeshua and "Christianity" as most know and believe in it.



Quote:

All the original strength of this board have now gone...Linn, Ginny, Gordon Phinn, to name a few. There are many. Marilyn is still here only to have you insult her in previous posts. She is a real spiritual person, a long way ahead of you. ...William Buhlman closed down his forum last year or the year before. In an email he told me it was because of the 'bad element' . I found out later from those former members who started a new forum, it was because of the christian element constantly harrassing posters(our view is the only true view...

 Speaking generally here, and not referring to any one person.   Those who leave a site because of "negativity" and because of one or two people who express rather strong and cynical beliefs, and who are critical of others belief systems, have a long way to go in perfecting the true practice and livingness of "PUL".    There is the big U in PUL, which without same, is not PUL at all.    Not even close.   Anyone can like and get along with those who are on a similar wavelength, like attracts and likes like.

 If you look at the example of those really attuned to Source, like Yeshua, you will see people who immerse themselves in the most dark and negative energies and conditions around.   Why, because these are what need to be transformed and regenerated most.  He got a lot of heat from the "religious" leaders and teachers of his day, for hanging out with the difficult, challenging, and "undesirable" people within society like the thieves, prostitutes, tax men, etc.   It might not be easy to deal with for an unenlightened personality, but its a hell of a lot more rewarding than hanging out with people who mostly just like and agree with you and your beliefs.  
Anyone can do that, but real spiritual teachers go where they are most needed not because its personally easier for them or because of "bad vibes".   Yeah, so what there may be bad vibes on here sometimes, so people with supposedly more open spiritual beliefs should just abandon this site?  This site is extremely tame compared to what real spiritual teachers and guides oft immerse themselves in.

 Our guides don't work with us because its fun for them, but because its necessary until we don't need any more guides for ourselves.  Wonder if they ever think we are too negative or too attached, or what not?  Do they ever abandon us because we are faulted, stubborn creatures who have negativity within and sometimes express this out?

 Or, as he said, "those who are whole, need not a physician".     Human personalities have a tendency to want to surround themselves with people and vibes where the majority of others agree with and completely accept them.    It's pleasant to be surrounded by those who really like you and mostly usually agree with you.  The ego cannot stand others disagreeing with its preciously held beliefs, or people who don't like us.

 But to me, the true practice of PUL is trying to help, love, and positively affect everyone and especially those who because they are unhappy, lash out at others and who are "difficult" to deal with, or characterized as "negative".    These are our best teachers, just as in life difficult and challenging circumstances are often our best and most effective teachers.   We all need these until we are fully attuned to Source, and once we are, we don't view them the same way anymore, we don't become stressed out by or dislike such people and circumstances anymore.   We see them as opportunities to put real love into practice, to help those who hurt.   Real PUL and understanding and practice of same.


Btw, since you said you have been reading this board since 2000, and it seems you have recently joined, its reasonable to assume that you have had another handle here in the past as a poster before now?

  Who were you before, if that is the case?  



         

People who are so emotionally against anything "Christian" are just as fundamentalist oriented as the hard core southern Christian type.   I've found that the wisest and most spiritually attune people, are also often the ones who are the most universal in nature, they see truth in many different belief systems whether of any the major religions, or various psychic channels out there

I kind of tend to agree with this.  I think there probably is a Jesus, as egregore if nothing else, and as a pagan friend of mine once noted, "The Man with the fish had some good ideas", but I don't think he's the be all and end all of spiritual development, and Christianity and the Bible are irrelevant to me other than when they push it in my face (like making laws that I can't buy gas...or beer...on Sunday, or who I can marry).  Otherwise, not worth getting cranked over...I take what works and leave the rest.

We don't really know how this whole universe thing works, really.  Maybe some people are born into this particular life meant to be Christians, and for them, Christianity is the "one true way".  It isn't for me...no skin off my behind, or theirs, what they believe (kept out of my life) is their business, and what I believe is mine.  No worries.  I don't care to be on the recieving end of "Methinks s/he doth protest to much".

Cricket wrote on Mar 16^th, 2007 at 6:42pm:

[Christianity and the Bible are irrelevant to me other than when they push it in my face (like making laws that I can't buy gas...or beer...on Sunday, or who I can marry).

 Stuff like that can really irk me sometimes too.  I once got a message left on my answering machine asking for voting support against gay marriage.  

 I decided to call them back, and ask what the heck where they all about.  I knew intuitively it was a Christian group.   I ended up talking to this lady, and asked why she was so against Gay marriage, and all she could say and very emotionally was that Jesus was against it.  

 I pointed out that Jesus was also for treating people equally, respectfully, and with love, and that it wasn't very loving to try to force people to do or not do certain things, or keep them from being equal to us.   She didn't like that answer, but just kept repeating emotionally the line about Jesus.   I said, well i think if Jesus was here, he'd might disagree with you and i asked her to never call my house again asking for support for such a hateful and un-Christian goal.  

I'm not going to go into how stupid and unspiritual i think such fundamentalist beliefs are...but having been close to some people who are gay and who are great people...well stuff like the above perplexes me, and sometimes irks me...but physical life is too short to waste time worrying so much about or becoming angry over what others do or don't do, what they believe or don't believe.

 It's a very real possiblity that the world could now be in a much, much worse and more barbaric mode of being if it wasn't for Yeshua and the resulting religion built around him and his teachings, however warped and dogmatic they may have become after he left the public scene.  

Quote:

Might it be then, that Jesus actually does exist... As a "god-form" (more simply, a powerful construct of the collective human consciousness which has achieved a high (perhaps full!) degree of autonomy, power, and intelligence due to the HUGE numbers of humans who have had faith in his/its existence, and relevance to their lives, for so many centuries? In other words, Jesus didn't create us in "his" image, WE created "Him" in OUR IMAGE! It doesn't make Jesus any "less real" (assuming  that Reality is fundamentally MENTAL, and not physical) but it DOES require an adjustment of the popular human conception of man's relationship to "him" (e.g., we shouldn't regard him as the "Almighty Drill Sergeant Who Will Kick Our A$$es In The Hereafter If We Don't Unthinkingly Obey "Him" Like Trembling Little Wiener Dogs" like most churchmen and theologians would have us do.) Just one theory,

Yes, Chum, this is somthing that I have suggested in past posts.  Whether Jesus was an original creation of the source, or simply a creation of the collective human consciousness, I do not think it matters.  It makes him no less real, no less of a conscious being, no less of a spiritual savior for human kind.