-IF Literalist Christianity is true.
How so? Lack of faith, my friends.
Think about it. Jesus was VERY explicit, that if you had so
much as the faith of a "mustard seed", you could tell a
mountain to move, and it WOULD! (Matthew 17:20.)
SO... we are currently involved in a religiously-flavored
war in Iraq.
What's up with the bombs, bullets, tanks, planes, and
soldiers?
All we need is a few chaplains... with FAITH.
Think about it. Imagine our next assault on, say... Fallujah.
Imagine a chaplain walking into town... his Bible held high in
one hand...
And blasts of Holy Lightning from his OTHER hand, blowing away
insurgents with unerring accuracy! And a clear bubble of Holy Power
surrounding our hero, which the insurgent's bullets and IED
shrapnel just bounce off of!
Heck, he could even be preceded by an army of flesh-eating
zombies, black-cowled revenants, and lumbering ancient mummies, risen  up by prayer...
"Softening up" the insurgent positions first, and using up their ammunition as they futilely try to stop the onslaught of Holy Undead!
AND what soldiers and Marines we DO use, will arrive in a nice, pacified,
humbled community of new Christian converts (having seen FIRST-HAND the power of REAL Christian faith, as opposed to their own false religion!!!)
But we DON'T see this happening. What we DO see, is a typical
war that you might expect in an ATHEISTIC universe of matter
and energy, where the "good guys" (Christians?) get blown away
just as easily as the "bad guys" (Muslims?) Bullets, bombs, planes,
and SCIENCE... And NO MAGIC in sight!!!
So, what's up with Literalist Christianity (or Literalist Islam, or any
othe magical belief? Why do people believe in these things, when
they have been SO abundantly DISPROVEN?
*Is it not therefore time, to (at LEAST) refrain from attempts at literal interpretation of the Bible???*
Because otherwise, you're all going to Hell, Christian or not! If man is saved by FAITH ALONE... well, you AIN'T GOT ANY, chumps. (Watch the news and you'll see what I mean...)
Now, I've posted this question on a LOT of Christian/religious forums,
and the typical answer is THIS -
***"Oh come on, how could you ask such a STUPID question!!!"***
(That's what I call a COP-OUT, people.
Can you do better? If so, post away..!)

B-man

hahahahahaha

Brendan,

Ho hum.  Same old same old.  Jesus spoke in parables, the point of which was not always to be taken literally but to have the main idea or point understood.  When he spoke of the faith of a mustard seed and one could thereby move a mountain, it is a direct example of JC extolling the power of intent and thought creating reality.  If taken literally, it has less meaning in the physical because wishing or wanting is not the same thing as using intent.  There are 4 billion people on this planet with different wishes, desires, wants - and in the physical all these desires do not come true.

However, taken as a parable, the mustard seed can have real meaning for our lives as we see the subtleties of intent creating and changing our realities.  I have experienced this personally.  

Using purely literalist interpretations, you miss out on much.  Parables are not usually meant to be taken literally.


Matthew

Love it!, Chumley. Where's Don(Beserk) jumping in and giving us his religious psycho-babble
to refute your statement. Not to the mention the other christian zealots who patrol this site
and other OOBE Forums(no names mentioned!) ...Darth. May both sides of the force be with
you.. :)

Personally I've grown weary of some types of people making ignorant remarks about christianity and other belief systems. First, you create the proposition that they believe this and such in a certain way. Then you procede to ridicule it and tear it down.  The truth is, you are only debating yourself. You are the straw man. That is why those who have read your comments on christian forums think your arguement is stupid. That, and the advice of Jesus to not throw pearls before swine.

Michael is referring the the Straw Man fallacy, a very simple and common error in reasoning:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Rob

[quote author=MichaelGordon link=1172975594/0#4 date=1172993454]Personally I've grown weary of some types of people making ignorant remarks about christianity and other belief systems. First, you create the proposition that they believe this and such in a certain way. Then you procede to ridicule it and tear it down.  The truth is, you are only debating yourself. You are the straw man. That is why those who have read your comments on christian forums think your arguement is stupid. That, and the advice of Jesus to not throw pearls before swine.
*****************
Typical Christian answer, which says nothing. (How am I
the "straw man" here, outside of your own imagination???)
And... what "pearls" do you have, Michael...
That aren't superstitious garbage? I mean, idiotic drivel written
down thousands of years ago by goat-herders so ignorant,
they were about one step above NEANDERTHAL MEN... so primitive,
that even the Egyptians and Babylonians - who were
woefully primitive, superstitious cultures in their own right -
considered these early Hebrews to be barbarians.
We're talking about people here, who would wipe their a$$es
after a dump with their bare hands, and then EAT with those
same hands, without washing (much like some desert nomads do
even today.) Who would just as soon STONE you, as look at you
(once again, like today's nomadic Afro-Arabian hillbillies.)
Do you really believe, that people who were barely above the
mental level of the animals they herded, have "wisdom"
to impart to us? If so, you have clearly been brainwashed like
a good little church-bot "ought to be"...

B-man

P.S. Why is there NO examples of MAGIC (I mean like you read
about in scripture, not the stupid coincidences that pass for
"miracles" today) assuming that one or more or these religions
is true? You won't touch that one with a ten-foot pole, because
you can't. Either fess up, or shut up. OR, prove that I'm wrong.
Is that so much to ask of these faith-heads, especially when they
try to preach at me like my best buddy (recent Xian fundie convert)
did again today?

Love it!, Chumley. Where's Don(Beserk) jumping in and giving us his religious psycho-babble
to refute your statement. Not to the mention the other christian zealots who patrol this site
and other OOBE Forums(no names mentioned!) ...Darth. May both sides of the force be with
you.. :)
*****************
Dig that avatar you got there!
Now, if the Pope (or any other clergy) could actually DO that,
I might take some stock in the rest of their pronouncements.
Heck, even a levitation or two might do it for me. (I always
wondered why the Pope needs a plane to fly, or an armored
Pope-mobile to deter would-be assassins...)

B-man

Do you expect me or christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice? That will not happen.
But I will give you a little something to chew upon in the mean time:
What part of 'love your neighbor as you love yourself' do you find so primitive, superstitious and offensive?

[quote author=MichaelGordon link=1172975594/0#8 date=1172994907]Do you expect me or christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice? That will not happen.
But I will give you a little something to chew upon in the mean time:
What part of 'love your neighbor as you love yourself' do you find so primitive, superstitious and offensive?
*****************
Nothing at all!
But an atheist/agnostic could say the same thing (and they
have, if not always in so many words! Ever heard of Confucius, or
the Buddha? Or Mark Twain, for that matter?)
I'll admit that quote appears in the Bible. But it is
like a pearl, nestled in the jaws of a big, nasty, slimy oyster -
is it not? (Unless you think that genocide, slavery,
and killing all the inhabitants of a city except for the
little girls - who you can keep for your God-approved,
pedophilic jollies - is just fine and dandy.)

B-man

Do you expect me or Christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice

While I think Chumley (possibly playing devil's advocate?) gets a little cranked about things, I do have to say that it may be environmental to a degree.  I have not once read him declare "Christians say/do/believe so and such" where I couldn't find you a whole bunch around here that fit those descriptions to a tee.  

This area tends to have a heavy population of downright rabid Christians.  I think that's a personality thing...i.e., if they'd been born in Iraq they'd be rabid Muslims, but Christians is what we've got here.  When you live with that, in the sense of their forced intrusion into your life, on a daily basis, you do tend to get a bit emotional about it.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to work on Sunday, but don't start a neighborhood campaign to stop everyone else from doing so, just because you don't.  Don't start a vendetta against your neighbor because they defy any of your religious rules that aren't based on harm (i.e., I have no problem with vendettas against child molestors, I do have with picking on someone because they're pagan...which is why we kept our mouths shut about it, but the neighbor that didn't didn't deserve the treatment she got, much less based on "God would want it that way").

The town I came from, not fifty miles from here, that sort of thing would be unheard of.  We had a couple little churches that had proselytizing teams that came around and made themselves unpleasant now and then, but it was definitely the very tiny minority.  Had I never heard my mother's description of the little town she grew up in, I'd have been beyond shocked when I moved to this area and encountered the nasty, judgmental, intrusive (I think that's the big one...you can be judgmental as you want, as long as you don't push it into other people's lives) brand of Christianity they specialize in around here.

Now, I suspect Chumley of rabble rousing to a degree...after all, if Christianity is such a ridiculous thing, ignore it as long as it isn't making laws for you.  What the Bible says, or the Pope, or anyone else in authority in the Christian world, is totally irrelevant to me.  I'll engage in a sparring match for amusement occasionally, and that may be what he's doing, but it's like saying I should get bent because someone somewhere believes that Zeus is the all power-full.  Which of course he may be, but the comparison stands.  You just don't care that much about the subject when you have no belief in it at all.  Otherwise, the phrase "methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind.

I will indulge in one pet peeve...the tendency (once again with the caveat that it applies to those I've personally met/dealt with, not necessarily all) of many Christians to take any mention of god as an outright declaration of belief in the Christian God and every single word in whichever version of the Bible they subscribe to.  I've had interesting discussions with people who declared Thomas Jefferson, of all people, a staunch Christian (and probably of their denomination, since aren't all right-thinking people?) because he used the word "God".  Despite his own repeated declaration otherwise, despite there being hundreds of "gods", despite that fact that even believing in the Christian God doesn't imply belief in the infallibility of the bible...if I say "God" 'cause I dropped a brick on my toe, the "obvious" meaning is that I'm closet Christian Reformed, if I'd just admit it to myself.

Yeah, I think Chumley's got some points, even if they aren't as universally applicable as he may think.  One of these days I'll start collecting the texts of some of the absolutely vicious church signs around here, just for him.

Hmmm. I was just wondering what would christians do if they found themselves in Focus 27,
whether they were retrieved there or not. Would they start preaching to the inhabitants?
Forming their own groups and churches? Arguing among themselves and the other sects
that they start up..."We're right and you're wrong!"..."When Jesus comes, you'll be sorry!"
type attitudes. Makes me wonder??.....Darth..May both sides of the force be with you.
 

Do you expect me or Christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice[/i]

While I think Chumley (possibly playing devil's advocate?) gets a little cranked about things, I do have to say that it may be environmental to a degree.  I have not once read him declare "Christians say/do/believe so and such" where I couldn't find you a whole bunch around here that fit those descriptions to a tee.  

This area tends to have a heavy population of downright rabid Christians.  I think that's a personality thing...i.e., if they'd been born in Iraq they'd be rabid Muslims, but Christians is what we've got here.  When you live with that, in the sense of their forced intrusion into your life, on a daily basis, you do tend to get a bit emotional about it.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to work on Sunday, but don't start a neighborhood campaign to stop everyone else from doing so, just because you don't.  Don't start a vendetta against your neighbor because they defy any of your religious rules that aren't based on harm (i.e., I have no problem with vendettas against child molestors, I do have with picking on someone because they're pagan...which is why we kept our mouths shut about it, but the neighbor that didn't didn't deserve the treatment she got, much less based on "God would want it that way").

The town I came from, not fifty miles from here, that sort of thing would be unheard of.  We had a couple little churches that had proselytizing teams that came around and made themselves unpleasant now and then, but it was definitely the very tiny minority.  Had I never heard my mother's description of the little town she grew up in, I'd have been beyond shocked when I moved to this area and encountered the nasty, judgmental, intrusive (I think that's the big one...you can be judgmental as you want, as long as you don't push it into other people's lives) brand of Christianity they specialize in around here.

Now, I suspect Chumley of rabble rousing to a degree...after all, if Christianity is such a ridiculous thing, ignore it as long as it isn't making laws for you.  What the Bible says, or the Pope, or anyone else in authority in the Christian world, is totally irrelevant to me.  I'll engage in a sparring match for amusement occasionally, and that may be what he's doing, but it's like saying I should get bent because someone somewhere believes that Zeus is the all power-full.  Which of course he may be, but the comparison stands.  You just don't care that much about the subject when you have no belief in it at all.  Otherwise, the phrase "methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind.
*****************
You've brought up a good point, Cricket.
What is that point, you ask..?
It is that I DO allow for some possibility (however slight) that
Christianity may be true.
If it is true, then "True Horror" are the best words I can think
of to describe the universe. And you MUST admit, this IS an
incredibly vicious, cruel universe we live in. If this universe
is MENTAL rather than physical, it can be safely said that this
is an EVIL universe, as well. (Which is why I frankly prefer
mechanistic materialism... I'd rather believe that the universe
is simply mindless and incapable of caring, than outright evil
and malevolent toward its creatures!)
Why do I constantly fight against Christianity then? Because the
more evidence that I find AGAINST it, the happier I am. The more
arguments I can come up with that Christians CAN'T answer, the
more likely it seems to me, that Christianity is untrue.
Because, pessimist that I am - to believe that THIS UNIVERSE
is the creation of an all-powerful, PERSONAL entity?
I could no more take comfort from THAT, than I could from
believing the stories of H.P. Lovecraft were true. (At least Cthulhu
would LEAVE YOU ALONE after killing you and the rest of the human race - simple OBLIVION, he didn't care enough to torture you post-mortem..!)
***And to think that some people are COMFORTED by Literalist Christianity. Hoo, boy...***

B-man

Oh, come on Chumley, just ignore it. :) This world was made for free choice so enjoy the various attractions that it has to offer with no fear of reprisal.  Take a trip to South America and explore the tribes, yodel in Switzerland, take in the sight of the Grand Canyon, journey to Tibet, vacation to Hawaii, or just do whatever you want that you feel needs to be done to find missing puzzle pieces.

Stand up to anyone who believes that you should not explore.

B-dawg wrote on Mar 4^th, 2007 at 11:06pm:

Do you expect me or Christians to enlighten you on the topic when you cannot put aside your emotionally driven prejudice[/i] While I think Chumley (possibly playing devil's advocate?) gets a little cranked about things, I do have to say that it may be environmental to a degree.  I have not once read him declare "Christians say/do/believe so and such" where I couldn't find you a whole bunch around here that fit those descriptions to a tee.   This area tends to have a heavy population of downright rabid Christians.  I think that's a personality thing...i.e., if they'd been born in Iraq they'd be rabid Muslims, but Christians is what we've got here.  When you live with that, in the sense of their forced intrusion into your life, on a daily basis, you do tend to get a bit emotional about it.  I don't care if someone doesn't want to work on Sunday, but don't start a neighborhood campaign to stop everyone else from doing so, just because you don't.  Don't start a vendetta against your neighbor because they defy any of your religious rules that aren't based on harm (i.e., I have no problem with vendettas against child molestors, I do have with picking on someone because they're pagan...which is why we kept our mouths shut about it, but the neighbor that didn't didn't deserve the treatment she got, much less based on "God would want it that way"). The town I came from, not fifty miles from here, that sort of thing would be unheard of.  We had a couple little churches that had proselytizing teams that came around and made themselves unpleasant now and then, but it was definitely the very tiny minority.  Had I never heard my mother's description of the little town she grew up in, I'd have been beyond shocked when I moved to this area and encountered the nasty, judgmental, intrusive (I think that's the big one...you can be judgmental as you want, as long as you don't push it into other people's lives) brand of Christianity they specialize in around here. Now, I suspect Chumley of rabble rousing to a degree...after all, if Christianity is such a ridiculous thing, ignore it as long as it isn't making laws for you.  What the Bible says, or the Pope, or anyone else in authority in the Christian world, is totally irrelevant to me.  I'll engage in a sparring match for amusement occasionally, and that may be what he's doing, but it's like saying I should get bent because someone somewhere believes that Zeus is the all power-full.  Which of course he may be, but the comparison stands.  You just don't care that much about the subject when you have no belief in it at all.  Otherwise, the phrase "methinks he doth protest too much" comes to mind. ***************** You've brought up a good point, Cricket. What is that point, you ask..? It is that I DO allow for some possibility (however slight) that Christianity may be true. If it is true, then "True Horror" are the best words I can think of to describe the universe. And you MUST admit, this IS an incredibly vicious, cruel universe we live in. If this universe is MENTAL rather than physical, it can be safely said that this is an EVIL universe, as well. (Which is why I frankly prefer mechanistic materialism... I'd rather believe that the universe is simply mindless and incapable of caring, than outright evil and malevolent toward its creatures!) Why do I constantly fight against Christianity then? Because the more evidence that I find AGAINST it, the happier I am. The more arguments I can come up with that Christians CAN'T answer, the more likely it seems to me, that Christianity is untrue. Because, pessimist that I am - to believe that THIS UNIVERSE is the creation of an all-powerful, PERSONAL entity? I could no more take comfort from THAT, than I could from believing the stories of H.P. Lovecraft were true. (At least Cthulhu would LEAVE YOU ALONE after killing you and the rest of the human race - simple OBLIVION, he didn't care enough to torture you post-mortem..!) ***And to think that some people are COMFORTED by Literalist Christianity. Hoo, boy...*** B-man

B-man, I'm certainly not christian at all though your OBSESSION with dwelling on does disturb me somewhat.

My advice: Just ignore it if it irks you so much. You seem to have very sound reasons many of which i agree with for rejecting it. Afterall a school of thought with christians is the 'creationist' view. I certainly do not adhere the western materialistic mechanistic view of the universe but it does have truths, such as that the earth has been in existence for an awfully longer time than the Bible professes that it has. That alone makes me laugh off literal christianity  ;D

Also your statement that the universe is so cruel is only coming from your perspective which has been shaped by your experiences, your environment but most importantly the way you have chosen to feel about them. I would agree with you that it can be cruel at times but it also can be wonderful - (friendships, relationships, enjoyment of nature, long jogs, pleasant dreams, sports, late night comedy shows  ;D).
Heck I could have an attitude similar to yours with my life situation, I'm struggling to hold down employment, i've felt quite lonely and like noone understands me before, I'm truly appalled by all the conflict and crisis in the world and the fact that George W Bush is the leader of the 'free' world. But my research into spirituality, forming my own philosophies and perspectives on what the heck we're all doing here on this little blip in this vast vast universe has given me some kind of happiness and atleast most of the time this board renews my faith in humanity which sometimes seems all but lost when I watch the evening news.  

My advice to you Chumley just being friendly and all would be to embrace some of the more positive messages of pure unconditional love and acceptance on this board rather than the dogmatic bible bashing, which to be fair i don't see too much of on this board and most of the christians on here don't appear to follow the fundamentalist eternal darnation creed. If they did I doubt they'd come here.

Embrace doesn't mean I expect you to take it on board uncritically but try to push away all the paranoia about literal christianity (i know its hard!!) The universe from my spiritual perspective is certainly not cruel and heartless. YES it is a challenge! but what makes it seem cruel is ALOT of people live their lives based on fear and judgement, insecurity, insufficiency and greed. I'm trying to move away from this to live my life with free choice, free will, PUL, acceptance and allowance of others. It certainly isn't easy when you've been living with a fear based mentality most of your life. I don't pretend to be perfect or living with PUL and acceptance yet by any means. Of course I can't force you to change, have no power to do so and don't wish to do so - Free choice dictates that by your own will you will either embrace, reject or ignore the sentiments in my post.

To Chumley and to others alike: I just wish you luck in your journey, wherever it takes you.

Never say die,

Michael  

Quote:

Hmmm. I was just wondering what would christians do if they found themselves in Focus 27, whether they were retrieved there or not. Would they start preaching to the inhabitants? Forming their own groups and churches? Arguing among themselves and the other sects that they start up..."We're right and you're wrong!"..."When Jesus comes, you'll be sorry!" type attitudes. Makes me wonder??.....Darth..May both sides of the force be with you.

They wouldn't find themselves in focus 27. They would have dropped off in one of the Belief Systems Territories as they would be drawn to others like them. Like attracts like.

Namaste, Mairlyn

;D Classic Chumley !!!

Marilyn,

Ah, I just can't resist a second post since my last departure.  I can't put an amusing image out of my mind.  Countless star-struck New Agers create a Hollow Heaven in the so-called BSTs and label it Focus 27 to boost their egos and nurture their condescending feelings towards people with contrary outlooks.  Christian retrievers from Moen's "House of God" strategize about how to trick them into retrievals.   [According to this site, such "tricks" are often employed in this way.]  Remember that, even according to Bruce, Jesus is a major player in these beguiling retrieval efforts.  So back to my fantasy, real retrievers visit this New Age Hollow Heaven, extend the lure of an exciting reincarnation, and even show them the thought form of a reentry station.  Once these gullible New Agers escape their delusory world, they are brought to the real heaven in the hope that an environoment governed by agape love will finally be more appealing to them.

Posters like Rob Roy can pontificate all sorts of New Age bromides and condescendingly claim that posters on Linn's site are more advanced than those on this site.  Members of the New Age ghetto just smile sweetly and nod their heads, oblivious to the thinly veiled insult.  Other posters, like myself, find Linn's site unacceptably shallow and, in private messages, complain that Linn's readings are not worth the money.   The New Age ghetto perceives such complaints as unacceptably "negative" and unenlightened.  Marilyn, I'm actually glad your appalling claim that Christians miss out on Focus 27 is on display for all to see.  And I'm glad that my ghetto rhetoric still has the power to irritate you.  Otherwise, I would change my imagery.   But I will persist until you New Agers finally allow the mirror of truth to expose your bigotry and recognize the hypocrisy of your highly selective indignation at premature dogmatism.  Perhaps, then, the relentless cheap shots at Christians will finally be checked by honest and consistent moderators.  

By the way, the misguided but fascinating TV special on Jesus' alleged tomb did unearth an interesting Jerusalem ossuary inscription in a first-century Christian cemetery--"Simon bar Jonah."  That is St. Peter's name (e. g. Matthew 16:17).  But there is solid ancient tradition that Peter and Paul were both martyred by Nero in Rome, not Jerusalem.  Now Marilyn, as the professed reincarnation of St. Peter, you would surely know whether that Jerusalem ossuary really contains your bones.  How is this discrepancy to be reconciled?  Is the Jerusalem name just a coincidence?

Don

P.S.  No, Marilyn, you can't squirm out of this by claiming you weren't generalizing about Christians.  And yes, Rob, I know about your reverence for Jesus and Mary.  And No, I don't put everyone here in the same boat.  But yes, this site does exude the ethos of a New Age ghetto.  However, I am grateful that this site enabled me to get in touch with a very bright and deeply spiritual seeker like Dark Knight.  Don't allow the prism of your New Age bias to blind you to this woman's inner magnificence. despite her plight.
 

Hallehluya!!!

Finally someone preaches the truth about the New Age Ghetto!

hahaha.

Hi Don I miss you.

I realize that focus 27 is most likely a belief system territory.  

However, I believe it greatly differs from other bst's.  Why?  Because those in other bst's usually think they will be there forever, or are not able to escape unless they are retrieved.  Of course there are exceptions.  However, it is well known that focus 27 is only a temporary place of residence for newly deceased.  

Also, rather than simply sitting in church reading the bible for eternety, or being emotionally torchered for several lifespans, which usually goes on in the hollow heavens and hells, actual progress takes place in focus 27.  Unfullfilled desires and dreams are able to manifest and be lived in focus 27.  Anything your mind can conceive will come true.  This is an excellent way to rid yourself of unneccessary and hindering baggage picked up during our physical lives.  

Mostly all of our material, and even unmaterial needs are able to be satisfied in focus 27.  Imagine the weight being lifted off of your shoulders after doing everything you have ever wanted to do during your life on earth.  All this comes true in focus 27.  What a great place!  And once again, it is known that this is not a permanant place.  We can leave at any time with our own free will once we are ready to explore what lies beyond.  Of course, where a person goes from this point is a personal choice.  It is made known to those in focus 27 that they may stay for as long as they like, and yet they may leave at any time.

Therefore, focus 27 cannot be categorized in the same group as most other hollow heavens.

Very well said Dude!

Don, even if I once found myself in heaven, I'll look out for "true" retrievers who would be able to carry me into an even better heaven! So if you come across me then, and you can impress me with some nice radiation or so you'll have a good chance to pull me out into the real bliss!

Spooky

Well said, Dude.  Now prepare to do battle on the astralpulse religion section I just discovered! >:(  Nah, I'm just kidding.  I too repost material on other websites and I deserved your comments.  What I'm actually thinking of posting there is the evidence that Jesus and the Old Testament prophets would actually agree with some of your critique about biblical violence and severe penalties.

[Spooky:] "Don, even if I once found myself in heaven, I'll look out for "true" retrievers "who would be able to carry me into an even better heaven! So if you come across me then, and you can impress me with some nice radiation or so you'll have a good chance to pull me out into the real bliss!"
____________________________________________________

Both witty and profound, Spooky.  But maybe you and I should sign a mutual retrieval pact, just in case I'm unwittingly confined to a spirit plane reserved for those with unconscious personal delusions of grandeur! :-/  In our own way, we are all stuck in our current belief system.  We just need to humbly admit this and hold our beliefs passionately but provisionally--passionately because only then can our beliefs be a tool of ever active love and service, and provisionally in the sense that we are always looking to upgrade our beliefs from a higher perspective that makes even more sense of the ambiguities of our quest.  

Don

Marilyn,

Ah, I just can't resist a second post since my last departure.  I can't put an amusing image out of my mind.  Countless star-struck New Agers create a Hollow Heaven in the so-called BSTs and label it Focus 27 to boost their egos and nurture their condescending feelings towards people with contrary outlooks.
*****************
Heck, Don... I'd've thought you'd have had the "New Agers" you depise
so much, in "Hell" being sodomized by demons with barbed, red-hot
whaling harpoons, while being constantly forced forced to watch reruns of "Barney" (as the theme song from "Jeopardy" eternally repeats on "Hell's" Muzak system) all the while screeching in agony as the blood boils, hot as molten steel, inside their scalded arteries... while you and your new-found buddies Tertullian, Augustine, Reverend John Furniss (CSSR), C.S. Lewis, and Fred Phelps look on from "Heaven" chortling and chuckling and having a swell time (in between rounds of choir practice, self-flagellation, tiddly-winks, and *clean* knock-knock jokes, or whatever you do for fun in Christian Heaven) just like the ol' Tertster said you all would way back around 190 AD or therebouts.
Instead, you've got 'em in a "Hollow Heaven." (I guess Fred Phelps in Topeka, Kansas and that Haggard dude in Colorado Springs, Colorado would have you and me in the same flaming worm pit?)
Which brings up a question. If you are correct, there are only BSTs for ALL of us, after death. That's all she wrote, as they say.
If so, in what way is YOUR Heaven a better place, than that of the New Agers? Or anyone else's "Hollow Heaven"? (You argue your point, but WHAT IS your point really, Don old boy..?)

B-man

P.S. I'm sorry, Don. But the "James Ossuary" was proven a forgery
a few years back... google "Ossuary+Forgery" and see what you come up with. (As I understand it, the same guy responsible for this forgery has done this for YEARS, cluttering up Israel' museums with an untold amount of OTHER bogus "artifacts" to the point that the Israeli Antiquities Ministry doesn't know its a$$ from a hole in the ground anymore...)

[Chumley:] "Heck, Don... I'd've thought you'd have had the "New Agers" you depise so much, in "Hell" being sodomized by demons with barbed, red-hot
whaling harpoons, while being constantly forced to watch reruns of "Barney" (as the theme song from "Jeopardy" eternally repeats on "Hell's" Muzak system) all the while screeching in agony as the blood boils, hot as molten steel, inside their scalded arteries... while you and your new-found buddies...look on from "Heaven" chortling and chuckling and having a swell time (in between rounds of choir practice, self-flagellation, tiddly-winks, and *clean* knock-knock jokes...
____________

Well, all that might initially be great fun to watch, but you need to know one thing about me, Chumley.   Before I came up with "Berserk" as my handle, I was known as "Deadworm" on New Age sites.  At the time I wanted a handle that sounded both pseudo-humble and gross without being in excessively poor taste.  I later opted for "Berserk" only because, being Swedish, I wanted to identify myself with my pillaging Viking ancestry.  So endless knock-knock jokes would be OK, but not if they were "clean."   Fortunately, the principle of like attracts like would ensure that in my Heaven the knock-knock jokes would be gross.  In your scenario,  I'd have to watch the TV reruns too just to get to the exciting torture and that would bore me as much as the hellbound New Agers.  So I'd prefer the mischief of tricking New Agers into succumbing to my retrieval efforts.  I'd lead them to believe they could reincarnate as sex symbols on Earth.  After I lured them from their Hollow Heaven, they would find to their horror that I was consigning them eternally to the tenor section of my Heaven's Gregorian chant choir.  That fate would be particularly delicious to me if I knew that on earth they could only tolerate heavy metal music.
 
"[Chumley:] "Instead, you've got 'em in a "Hollow Heaven."...If you are correct, there are only BSTs for ALL of us, after death...If so, in what way is YOUR Heaven a better place, than that of the New Agers? Or anyone else's "Hollow Heaven"?"
_____________________

Good question! How could Chumley tell if he was in the REAL Heaven?   Well, if you were forced to grovel to God and the saints and were forced, as an act of penance, to crawl to church over broken glass, that might be a sign that a better Heaven was available somewhere.  But if you were retrieved, how would you know that the next Heaven was an upgrade?  I don't think you could tell from the layout.  New Agers seem to feel that if they astrally visit a realm with a Welcoming Center, a Healing Center, and a Library, they have arrived in Focus 27.   As if you just fall flatass with a loud thud into the Hollow Heavens with no welcoming facilities!  As if denizens of Hollow Heavens would need no Healing Center for their initial adjustment period!   As if they would lack a library or its equivalent full of books that reinforce their narrow perspectives!  No, from my research there are two better criteria for distinguishing the real heavens: (1) NDE visitors describe residents of the real Heavens as brighter than our sun, though their appearance does not hurt the visitor's astral eyes.
(2) The real Heavens radiate an obvious upgrade in pure unconditional love.  

OK, Chumley, before you have a cow and rant against the prospect of being imprisoned with a bunch of wussy goodie two-shoes, consider what the Christian definition of agape love really is.  Quite simply, to love you means that in my presence you expeirence yourself as both loveable and capable.  Capable of what, you ask?  Well, that's where the principle of like attracts like kicks in.  Your "true" Heaven would be devoid of saintly wusses, perhaps a Heaven of loving but jaded miltary veterans.  

But as I've noted before, I doubt that BST is the right image for afterlife levels.  I think our core desires are more indicative of our progress towards PUL than our beliefs and logically prior to them  The rich mix of our core desires often remains after new facts force us to alter our beliefs.  So I like to think of the Heavens and Hells as CDTs (Core Desire Territories).  And I think this modification helps remove the contradictions between the Monroe-Moen model and the models espoused by other astral adepts.

Don

There will come a time when only the truth will be spoken for anything said outside of the truth is untrue and has no place in the truth.  

Chum might say - ah, but what is the truth?  and I would reply - God-fearing and God-seeing people who have the Sun in their eyes and pray for the spirit of Wisdom will be lead by the truth and expose the untruth.

Chum and Don,

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA INTO INFINITY AND BEYOND.....

You two have COMPLETELY cracked me up and simultaneously taken the stick out of my proverbial you know what....

and....pretty good conclusions all around regarding what the heck these bizarre BST's are all about.....

but I do intensely hope that the light shines gently on each of us wherever we go.

later, dudes!   :)   blink off

Matthew, you were so right when you said 'ho hum, same old, same old.'  

Blink, I'm so very happy to see you bright and cheery again. You are so loved dear soul. As is everyone.

Donald, I'm not even going to reply to you as nothing gets through to you. All the talking in the world won't change your views nor attitude. I will use the IGNORE function. You must be able to remember all your past lives in detail which I don't.

Chumley, hi there. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn

ES (Swedenborg) described literally innumerable heavenly societies, and hellish societies.  That leaves open many possible roads to enlightenment, as well as the notion that we may move from one society (group of like minded individuals CBTs as Don said) to another.

Don's insults and jibes are likely seen by him as a method to shake New Agers out of their rote complacency - however, others may see his remarks as being unloving and hurtful.  Don, in a life review, do you think, if you saw the negative reaction from board members to the barbs and jibes, along with the positive that you would be "ok" with it all?  I'm not sure how I'd feel.  Perhaps yours is a more tough-love heavenly society.  

I think it is truly comical to think of New Agers in focus 27 performing retrievals on Christian BSTs, and then Christians performing retrievals back on New Agers.  Could this occur?  Is one man's belief system territory another's true heaven?

Try as we might to impose our own interpretation and likes/dislikes, we will intuitively know the path to God, and God's love.  Though there may be different societies striving to reach the same goal, the end point, that is getting closer to love and the unity of all things will be waiting for each of us.  Infinite variety implies free will.  So I venture to say that like ES says, we will have choices among many societies/groups of like-mined souls.  As above, so below.  

Matthew

Hi Chumley I just want to talk to Jesus in heaven and tell him how much i love him,i really hope he talks to me as i have so much to say to him.

Love and God bless    Love Juditha

DocM wrote on Mar 6^th, 2007 at 3:27pm:

I think it is truly comical to think of New Agers in focus 27 performing retrievals on Christian BSTs, and then Christians performing retrievals back on New Agers.  Could this occur?  Is one man's belief system territory another's true heaven? Matthew

Could it be we are all arguing over the truth when there is no real truth just perspective?  :D :-/
I've heard channelled information that the only universal truth is free choice and the rest is just different perspectives of judgement. But this is just the perspective I have formed from my own research and experiences and they can't be ascribed to you.

Never say die,

I have heard this expression, that there is no universal truth, it is only a matter of perspective, for a while now on this site.  I understand the logic behind it, and how this comes from personal experience of the mind and our own beliefs.
However, this leads to what Pope Benedict called a "moral relativism," which justifies many forms of action under the heading of a relativistic truth (as opposed to one "real" universal truth).  

I have thought long and hard on this point and have come to the conclusion that saying the truth is always relative is a loaded statement, and ultimately wrong.  I am going to elaborate on an old thread about moral relativism, as I think it is a crucial topic.


Matthew

Quote:

I have heard this expression, that there is no universal truth, it is only a matter of perspective, for a while now on this site.  I understand the logic behind it, and how this comes from personal experience of the mind and our own beliefs. However, this leads to what Pope Benedict called a "moral relativism," which justifies many forms of action under the heading of a relativistic truth (as opposed to one "real" universal truth).   I have thought long and hard on this point and have come to the conclusion that saying the truth is always relative is a loaded statement, and ultimately wrong.  I am going to elaborate on an old thread about moral relativism, as I think it is a crucial topic. Matthew

Hello, Matthew. If you could locate the original (and ancient) thread we had this discussion on, and either continue the discussion there, or at least link to it (in a new thread that you might create), that might be helpful for any others who might be interested in this discussion.

In a nutshell, both "absolute morality" as well as "(absolute) moral relativism" are equally oversimplifications on the matter. The (relative... of course) truth, interestingly, is perhaps a little more a *simultaneity* of both (oversimplified) concepts, rather than say, "50% of each".
At it's highest level. "absolute morality" might be interpreted as (a much more helpful way of seeing it) CosmoEthics.

As an example, while two individuals/nations/religions/perspectives (eg. 'Bush' vs 'Islam') who might be engaged against each other adverserially, and from each party's perspective, they are each 'right' or 'the good guy', and the other is 'wrong' or 'the bad guy'.

Does such a situation necessarily make either (and exactly) one party 'right' and the other 'wrong', or both 'right' or both 'wrong'? The answer, depending on your perspective, could be any of the above. But from the perspective of 'God', or the "Essence, Totality and Simultaneity of Each and All Beings in the Cosmos", neither one is 'right' or 'wrong', but the actions of one side would be understood as being more CosmoEthical than the other (again this would include and would even vary with individual aspects of the war/situation/individuals involved. That is, cosmoethicality might weigh in favour of one side in a specific aspect, and yet weigh in favour of the other, in another aspect).

CosmoEthics (as an ideal, as a concept, as a theorem) is simultaneously "absolute" and "relative", but neither "absolutely relative" nor "relatively absolute". As an ideal/concept/theorem, It takes into consideration *all* possible factors and *all* possible perspectives on the matter).

"Doesn't this make CosmoEthics = Absolute Morality?".

No, morality is a judgement. CosmoEthics is a motivation, an understanding, an expression of love, not a judgement. In CosmoEthics, there is no 'right' or 'wrong', but there are (of course) varying degrees of CosmoEthicality for every action. And furthermore, it is not 'absolute' because CosmoEthics (or to be precise, the specific conclusions of cosmoethicality for any particular situation) depends and is the conclusion of the perspectives of all beings involved, taking into consideration the level of evolution (which is again, relative) of the beings whose perspectives are used.

Therefore, CosmoEthics itself (capitalized, as a ideal/concept/theorem) could be regarded as nearing Absolute (mathematically infinity, rather than 'absolute all'), while the specific cosmoethicality of any situation, must be (healthily) regarded as Relative, in the spirit of "to the best of our understanding of the matter, including our consultation with (ie. taking into consideration the perspectives of the) guides & helpers of many levels, beings much higher evolved (and hence are able to better/more clearly/more intelligently/more extensively analyze the karma, complexity, possibilities and overall cosmoethics of the situation) as high as we are able to be in contact with)".

"Doesn't this make CosmoEthics = Absolute Moral Relativism?".

No, in the (equally flawed or naive) idea of 'absolute moral relativisim', the individuals involved might say since there is no 'absolute moral authority', and there is no 'right' or 'wrong', then their actions are 'right' and justified (see the hypocrisy or fallacy?).

In CosmoEthics, there is certainly no 'right' or 'wrong', which means one's actions cannot be 'right' just as it cannot be 'wrong'. Rather, the individual who adopts such a system (it's not a 'belief system' as such, but a philosophy that being relative, is ever-open to improvement and evolution of one's perspectives... CosmoEthics is like the 'enlightenment which says there's *NO* ultimate enlightenment'... enlightenment or 'adding more light to oneself' is a relative and never-ending process... evolution and existence is a never-ending process), such an individual would adopt a more humble and keen-to-learn attitude of :

"Let us think, analyze, discuss, to the best of our ability, our understanding, our intentions; and taking into consideration the input of all beings involved, including the perspectives and advice of beings who are more highly evolved than ourselves, our guides & helpers and *their* guides & helpers; what can we say about the CosmoEthics or cosmoethicality of this particular given situation?

Our conclusion is such-and-such, but we are not so presumptious or self-righteous to say that our understanding of the cosmoethics here, is the ultimate-absolute-end-all conclusion or judgement. As with everything, we understand it is relative, and a yet higher evolved being may see something we don't, or a yet undiscovered piece of data may be uncovered later that may have additional input into our understanding of the cosmoethics here. But it is the best we can come up with for now, and for the benefit of all beings involved (as best as all beings (including adverserial parties) at our level is able to see, the collective conclusion of cosmoethics here is such-and-such."

Hi Chumley I just want to talk to Jesus in heaven and tell him how much i love him,i really hope he talks to me as i have so much to say to him.

Love and God bless    Love Juditha
*****************
Reminds me of what Josh,my 8-year-old nephew (who is being raised as
a fundie Baptist) had to say one time. (mind you, this is an 8-year-old
KID we're talking about here...)
Josh: "I could die RIGHT NOW." (Unsolicited, out of the blue, while we were playing catch in the park one summer afternoon. Maybe he was
trying to proselytize me..? His parents (my sis and her husband) know
I'm a "godless heathen" after all.)
Me: "Then what will you do, Josh?"
Josh: "I'll talk to JESUS."
Me: "And when you get done talking to Jesus, then what?"
Josh: "I'll talk to GOD."
Me: And when you get tired of talking to God, then what? Maybe
some pepperoni pizza?"
Josh: "Nope. Nothing to eat in Heaven."
Me: "What, no pepperoni pizza???"
Josh: "Nope."
Me: "Who told you that?"
Josh: "My CHURCH CAMP BASEBALL COACH!"
Me: "So no food, goodies, ect.?"
Josh: "Nope. Just talking to God and Jesus all the time."
Me: Well, if there's no pepperoni pizza, I'm not going. And
what DO you do, when you get tired of talking to God?"
Josh: "Talk to Jesus again..." :P
Juditha, if you dig what my nephew Josh digs, more power to ya.
(I didn't ask, but I'll bet his "church camp baseball coach" has also
spoon-fed him some lurid "Hell" lore, as well as the dope on "Heaven."
How else do you explain a kid his age wanting to be in an inter-galactic
Benedictine monastery..?)
But me? I think I'll take a raincheck...

B-man

Hi Chumley The reason i would like to have a one to one with Jesus is so i can ask him why i have had to suffer so much through my lifetime,i thought that he could give me the answer,only when he does give me the answer at least i will know it is a truthful one and as well as that i will know that when he gives his answer,whether i like the answer or not,he genuinelly cares about me. :-?

I feel here from what i have read of Josh that he will grow to be a preist and a very genuine caring loving preist,God bless him also i beleive many children have found there way with God for example Joan of Arc was called by God at a very early age. I always loved to here the stories about God and Jesus when i was a child and i still do.

Love and God bless    Love Juditha

:)

There is a Divine Plan which is the creation of our universe and when one starts to see the divine plan one can read it in the Akashic Record.

God is not to be mocked; His Plan is done and it is the Corner Stone of the Truth. There are check and balances in which one can tell whether one walks in the truth (or attaining to walk in the truth) or whether they are caught up in illusions.

There is a very fine line between illusion and truth.  The truth allows for spiritual creative freedom which is real, very real - whereas illusion is deceptive, controlling and has no firm foundations and will retard spiritual growth.

Great adepts across eons of time and all forms of art and literature confirm the truth again and again for those who seek the truth and it runs as a Golden Thread talking to your soul, training and guiding and bestowing order, love and indeed spiritual gifts as a blessing although more often spiritual training involves challenges manifested in every day life which can at times hurt one to the very core but with this one who walks in the spiritual river of truth knows one is growing through refinement and purification.  Often the chastisement one receives is truly the blessing for it is talking to the soul with discipline as a Mother or Father who cares for their child.

And as I write this I struggle to find the right words to use to describe how a soul feels when it is uplifted into the truth and light for I am a child.  

Yes we all do have our own perspective on what is the truth; may your perspective fill your soul with love and joy - for these are the fruits of truth.

OK all you New Age and Religious zealots...Go to...http://www.spiritwritings.com/library.html
...Scroll down to FUTURE LIFE IN THE SPIRIT WORLD...Heaps of free Ebooks to read about this,
plus other channeled stuff including Swedenborg material....Darth...May both sides of the force
be with you. :) PS. Liked the Larson description about huge cities including people/traffic etc. I've
encountered  this in my OOBE travels.

Chumley,

Forgive me, I'm not really sure what you were trying to say. If you are saying that we shouldn't have faith, then that doesn't make any sense. For example, as I watched one of my kids really struggle trying to do his math homework, I know that all he needed was a little bit of faith - that's all it takes - faith in himself. I know that if he just had a little bit, he could probably do my math homework and he's only in the sixth grade. I know this because of the very sophisticated games he plays on the Internet that I can't even figure out. I try to teach them things all the time and if they didn't have faith, I might as well not even waste my breath.

Again, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make unless faith comes in many different forms - but to me, faith is faith. If I'm way off base, which is very typical of me, could you make your point a little more clear?

Chumley,

Forgive me, I'm not really sure what you were trying to say. If you are saying that we shouldn't have faith, then that doesn't make any sense. For example, as I watched one of my kids really struggle trying to do his math homework, I know that all he needed was a little bit of faith - that's all it takes - faith in himself. I know that if he just had a little bit, he could probably do my math homework and he's only in the sixth grade. I know this because of the very sophisticated games he plays on the Internet that I can't even figure out. I try to teach them things all the time and if they didn't have faith, I might as well not even waste my breath.

Again, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make unless faith comes in many different forms - but to me, faith is faith. If I'm way off base, which is very typical of me, could you make your point a little more clear?
*****************
Faith in YOURSELF, is a wonderful thing. I think
that's where "faith" should begin and end though,
Kramer.
Why do I say that?
Well, let's start with the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Christian loonies
bombing abortion clinics and taking pot shots at doctors,
ect.
Maybe the world would be a nicer place to live, with a little
LESS faith in things, or ideas, external to ourselves? (And
DEFINITELY nicer, without the "blind" variety of faith that
preachers, priests, and politicians would like us to have..?)
But that's just MY take on the subject. Believe as you wish,
it's right there in the first amendment to the Constitution of
the United States. (Which, may I add, is NOT a very popular
document with religious fundies, whether Christian, Muslim,
Moonie or what have you!)

B-man

Kramer, faith is the most wonderful thing in the world I think  :)

::) Chumley!  I do agree with you - anything done in extreme is not healthy.  The spirit is generally very shy and doesn't like to be exposed that's why it's better to just get on with life as best as we can projecting love and helping where we can and if one does lean towards metaphysics it normally is a private journey.

That may be why your nephew can't talk about Jesus because he's actually talking about his soul and he knows in this asking he's thinking about - do I actually grow hair on my face and do I really have to kiss a girl and .. and really I am scared of dieing and what if my mom .. and what if ... ah, bless the little children and really we all are little children just in bigger bodies!

Children gain a huge amount from story telling and reading.  Especially the classic tales and any good modern childrens author as the stories told in great metaphor speaks to the child's soul and the child relates to the adventures, journeys and happenings to the characters.  

Also a great game between my 11 year old and myself is word association - this is great fun and can go on for hours! it goes .. I say tree, he says branch .. nest .. bird ... egg .. lol also a good way for any worries to come out if there are.   Also we play the memory game 'when I went to the shop I brought .. milk .. he normally says something like a elephant! so its milk, elephant, bread .. great fun!  And good old -eye spy .. I find it's better to do it with colours .. especially if you in the kitchen and you say I spy something white!!!

lol - i take it you do babysit him every now and then .. telling you all this!  Uncles are great for children - they normally and should spoil them rotten especially if the Uncle hasn't got children.