Hi, I am new to this so forgive me if this or a very similar topic has already been posted.
My question-

If we live many physical lives through reincarnation and as I read in the Q&A here we don’t lose our personal identity after death then that would imply that each physical life I have lived must maintain its own separate afterlife otherwise there is nothing “personal” per say about my afterlife identity at all if I were to have full knowledge and be influenced by all of those other lives. It would be a collective identity by definition. So can anyone explain how one would maintain the personality and identity of the life they just lived when there are hundreds and possibly thousands of personal identities from previous lives that we in fact MUST lose if we are to maintain the personal identity of the life we just lived on Earth.
It would seem from what I've read here that we do in fact lose our personal identity with each reincarnation and subsequent death unless as I said earlier each life we live maintains its own separate afterlife.
For example, Bruce says “he” was once a young girl in Central America. When he dies from his present life what will his personal afterlife identity be? That of who he was in his most previous life or that of the girl. IF it is of his most previous life than what has become of the personal identity of the girl. It seems her identity is old news and is just a memory now more than a living active personal identity. IF it is the identity of the girl then he has in fact lost the personal identity of the life he just lived and it has taken a back seat to the identity of the girl.

Another troubling question I have concerns the idea that we might be met by say a mother or father who previously died who may help us along in our afterlife. If I have lived a thousand lives then I could potentially have thousands upon thousands of mothers and fathers and sisters and grandmas etc. SO when I die which of the thousands of different mothers and fathers I have had will come to meet me. It seems I could find myself in a very crowded place with the hundreds of thousands of relatives from all my lives who may want to greet me and say “welcome back” upon my death.  :P

This is a lot to wrap my head around but extremely interesting to say the least.

Personal Identity - great question tdalek  :) if I may answer as best as I can.

Your EGO is your personal identity.  You are your Ego and it is your Ego which re-embodies in progressing earth lives and within each life your Ego, you, project one out of the 12 patterns of personalties keeping the core of you throughout.

You are re-incarnating at the same time, more or less, with other people (possibly part of your group - brothers, sisters, parents - we tend to swop roles) so although it may seem like thousands of sisters its actually the same old sister you had in the year 2500 BC.

I'm copy out a table I have from Rudolf Steiner's work which I hope helps further in understanding the complexity of us humans;

The make up of the Human Body

Physical Body– Earth, the sand or ground.
Decomposes following the law of physics.
Red charka, physical will to be, tuning into here and now.

Manas – the higher physical body – Thaliae
The Grace ‘Green and Fresh’ belonging to the seeds of music.
Orange charka, lower creative centre, reproductive and sexual energies.

*

Etheric Body– Water, waves from which she is born.
Life Body, Vital Force
Grows and rebuilds the physical body.  Reproduces the physical body.
Yellow charka, Self awareness, emotional engine room, clear thinking.
Cannot illuminate without light of consciousness (astral body) would remain in sleep.

Buddhi – the higher etheric body – Aglaia
The Grace ‘Splendour belonging to the Solar Sphere’
Spiritual body of Memory.
Transmits emotions.
Green charka, group awareness, higher love, balance.

*

Astral Body or Sentient Soul– Air, Wind blown tresses.
The consciousness that sinks into sleep and rises when waking up.
Seperates from Ether body.
Awareness of sense impressions, feelings and instincts.
Turquoise charka, higher creative centre of communication, linking with the mental body (intellectual soul), self-expression.
Astral body needs the permanence of I (Ego)

Atman – the higher Astral body – Euphrosynes
The Grace ‘Joyful’ belonging to the starry world.
Spiritual body of imagination.
Blue charka, perceptive centre of higher comprehension and overview promoting intuition.

*

Intellectual (mental) or Spiritual Soul
Thinking, consciousness of eternal truths.
Permanence of knowledge, mental image.
Memory process of perceiving earlier experiences at later points in time.
Memory does not come from inward observing but from what we experience in relation to objects and processes in the outer world.
Violet charka, spiritual will to be, self realization, calmness and peace.

*

EGO
Seat of control over the Will.
The Goddess of Beauty Venus.
Re-embodies in new physical, etheric and astral bodies in progressing earth lives.
Retainer of all memory.

*
The physical body would fall apart if the ether body did not hold it together.  The ether body would sink into unconsciousness if the astral body did not illumine it.  Likewise the astral body would repeatedly forget the past if the Ego did not rescue this past and carry it over into present.

Death belongs to the physical
Sleep belongs to the etheric
Forgetting belongs to the astral.


Ps:  Still nice to have a huge 'welcome back' party  :D

Caryn.

Greetings,

I'd like to mention more about Augo's 'same old sister from 2500BC' concept.  :)

 Bruce Moen, our host here, explains that same idea as a 'family' grouping, the numbers of which vary by various authors, but let's say one hundred to two-hundred souls. The soul who's your sister this lifetime may have been a neighbor or cousin previously. Some astrologists can plot out in zones along Earth's meridians where most of your 'family' is during this incarnation.

You grow from lessons learned during each incarnation. It's still you but your lives are set up to bring you closer to God through more loving, more knowledge, more courage, whatever. You are not who you were in grade one.

You'll get other viewpoints on this soon.  I hope you enjoy your visit here. Try reading Bruce's essays too that are listed at the very top of the page.

Bets

Desiny of Souls by Dr. Moody talks about this too, that your soul group stays the same but everyone will re-incarnate by way of different relations to each other.  If we came back every time as our Mom's son or our sister's brother, we wouldn't learn the lessons our souls are setting out to learn.  

I can't wait to see who's at my welcoming home party either.  :D

In one of his books Bruce Moen speaks of how he retrieved a past self that went by the name of Joshua. Joshua got killed by a spear in his liver area. Bruce had a liver disease in the same area. After Bruce retrieved Joshua and Joshua got healed at the healing center, Bruce's liver disease went away.

Since Joshua was healed, it is quite obvious that when/if he reincarnated again, his liver ailment wouldn't be carried over. Yet it was. This leads me to believe that Joshua was a former self of Bruce in a disc/oversoul/higher self sense, not in the sense that Joshua's existence came to an end once Bruce incarnated. For some reason Bruce experienced the effects of Joshua's injury even though Joshua had yet to return to his disc.  When I read about this experience my spirit guidance was communicating to me in a way that is hard to describe. Whatever the case, I get the feeling that perhaps Bruce ended up with Joshua's injury, so some people might consider as I considered above. I've found that Messages come in different ways.

If you think of occasions when a hypnotherapist finds a hypnosis subject that has an injury that is the result of a prior life, wouldn't the injury of a past life be taken care of before another incarnation takes place?

When Robert Monroe meets his I-there/disc/soul group he asked for how long this has been going on. He was told for a very long time. He said that I don't remember. He was told that he wouldn't because he didn't exist.  When his I-there was ready to incarnate again, the necessary ingredients were mixed together and his life was created (from his third book "Ultimate Journey" not the exact words).

Bruce suggests the same when he speaks about how a disc creates probes (selves) according to need.

Ron Kruger found the same during his near death experience. Below is the relevant section.

"Directly in front of me, but slightly below, stood a group of spirits: less than 100, but more than 50. Each spirit had an identity of sorts, but they were part of each other–a single entity, a single awareness, all part of a single force. In the center of the front row were three oriental women. I realized that all of the spirits comprising the entity were my past lives, and that the oriental women were my most recent lives.

Their faces were clearly humanoid, but from their shoulders down, their forms blurred gradually. Their arms and legs dissolved near their ends. Hovering on the same level, in rows, they seemed loosely joined at the shoulders. Their identities were of both sexes and all nationalities. None were deceased relatives, and I recognized none of them from my recent life.

Each of the spirits had lived once, but the truth and experience and wisdom of each lifetime was integral to the entire group. When each soul returned, their lives were absorbed by all, so there where no distinctions between thoughts and attitudes within the group. Each of them shared completely every experience and every knowledge of every lifetime into a single conscience. Like spices and other ingredients added to a Mulligan Stew, each added to the mix, but the resulting flavor was one. I was them, and they were me. There were all of my past, and they were my present."

It comes from the below site. Search for "Ron K" alphabetically of the attached list. Individual experience pages don't post correctly so I provided the list.

http://www.nderf.org/site_index.htm

If I've interpreted things correctly, my spirit guidance has told me more than once that reincarnation doesn't exist in the way people commonly believe. Three other people who visit this site occasionally (one more often than the other) have received the same message from their spirit guidance.

Even Michael Newton's books suggest the same without his realizing it. For example, he speaks of a soul having two to three incarnations at the same time. What happens when each self returns? Are they told that their personality is going to be extinguished according to what their soul considers appropriate? Or will each self be considered a worthwhile existence in its own right, and be allowed the right to continue its existence as an individual soul?

Hopefully the standard viewpoint of reincarnation isn't true, that way a particular self doesn't have to go through numerous physcial incarnations which can be quite difficult at times. Not just difficult, but dangerous, because eventually a self might end up living a life that gets it stuck living in a hell like realm for a while or even indefinitely. Would souls be willing to take such a risk over and over again, if it isn't necessary? I say not necessary, because even sources which give the soul group viewpoint state that soul group members learn from each other. If this is the case, it might not be necessary to incarnate over and over again.  Especially since there are many ways to learn in the spirit World that don't exist in the physical World. Plus if you consider that there are a lot of spirit beings who evolve quite fine without ever incarnating physically, the need for numerous physical life times is squashed.

Perhaps there are some exceptions. For example, Bruce wrote of spirits who got stuck in hell like realms for a while, and after being retrieved had the choice of either improving themselves in the world of Spirit, or in the physical World. Bruce described the physical World incarnation option as a risk, because a self stood the chance of living another bad life and ending up in a hell like realm again after it dies.

Rosalind Mcknight's book Cosmic Journeys, which uses the soul group model, states that selves don't incarnate in the physical World numerous times. It isn't necessary.

In some ways the soul group viewpoint and the disc viewpoint seem to contradict each other. Perhaps both viewpoints are true. Perhaps discs combine with other discs to form soul groups.   I had a dream which was representative of my disc,  and it was occupied by numerous souls from other discs. I got the impression that discs interact with each other a lot.


 

I just read what Bruce states about reincarnation on the frequently asked questions section. He basically supports the common viewpoint even though his Joshua story contradicts this viewpoint.

If the standard viewpoint is true, here's how reintegration might work:

A smaller self exists within its larger self even when it isn't aware of doing so. When it returns to the spirit World it remembers itself more and more, until it finds itself to be its bigger self, with all of its past selves no longer existing.  Just the memories and the overall resulting personality.

Of course this would mean that Joshua was one of Bruce's former disc members, not a prior self; and Ron Kruger, Robert Monroe (going by what I posted above),  myself and a few other forum members are wrong when it comes to the answers we received about how reincarnation actually works.

Recoverer.

Your views on reincarnation are totally in sync with my own.  Thank you for bringing up these ideas, they convince me all the more that my thoughts on how reincarnation actually works are true.  Since I have no personal experience to back up my thinking on this subject, it is always helpful to hear others who support my ideas.

Endlessly we search for ourselves, we seek for the true wedding of our spirit with our soul. It is not a group, it is not a disc, it is not a planet, it is not a zodiac sign, it is not one big happy family.  It is just you and me weaving a celestial dance in and out.  You come down, I go up.  I come down, you go up. How long do we seek for one another – how long do we stay in the realms of matter until we join and become whole again and not need this matter, above and below, to matter and we can fly as free as the wind a go wherever we want?


Caryn's lament.

That's lovely, Caryn.  :)

To emphasise its poetry, I took the opportunity of changeing the spacing. Hope you don't mind.

Endlessly we search for ourselves,
we seek for the true wedding
of our spirit with our soul.
It is not a group, it is not a disc,
it is not a planet,  it is not a zodiac sign,
it is not one big happy family.
It is just you and me
weaving a celestial dance
in and out.  
You come down, I go up.  
I come down, you go up.
How long do we seek
for one another – how long
do we stay in the realms of matter
until we join and become whole again
and not need this matter, above and below,
to matter
and we can fly as free as the wind a go wherever we want?

Caryn's lament.
---------

Interpreting it one way, you and your soul partner have been separated to enrich your experiences so that when you come together again, you will have more wisdom and loving to draw from. You won't regret these interludes apart, when the energies of yearning are met with the one yearned for.

Love, Bets

Good posts Recoverer!  Reincarnation as we conventionally think of it doesn’t really make sense unless we see our identities as part of a larger essence.  I think this is what Bruce’s disc points to.  In my own thinking I liken the discs to clouds that don’t have concrete boundaries but are more fluid and flow into and out of one another.  However, the image of the disc is very helpful in defining how our various identities relate to one another.  I think one difficulty in comprehending the concept is that we always want to think in terms of linear time. Yet we read in various sources that all time exists simultaneously or that consciousness exists in a place of no time and no space.  Hard stuff to comprehend from our physical body perspective on things.

Rob

You're welcome dude.


Rob:

I tried to figure this issue out from the no time perspective, and haven't been able to come up with anything conclusive.

Newbie alert!

I'm very interested in the nature of reincarnation. From what I've read on Bruce's site and the message board, it seems rather complex. This is proving to be quite an enlightening thread.

I very much want to contact some relatives who passed on a few years ago, but I am always unnerved by the nagging fear that they may have somehow reincarnated already, or are trapped in their own BST and that I will be unable to reach them. I am beginning to doubt the former, since from many of the retrieval accounts I have read, the deceased are frequently met by parents or other loved ones who passed on before them.

At the same time, I am anxious about my future. While the many retrieval accounts also seem to support my hopes of reuniting with family after death, I fear being separated from my parents, friends, and (future) spouse by some form of forced reincarnation. Bruce's description of the nature of the various centers around the Park lead me to believe that this is a voluntary process. Can anyone offer any further advice?

Hi ryuuko welcome.

Thanks Bets – yes the ultimate joining with my spirit partner.  If I may be pompous and give more arcane interpretation to my poem although it is a lament.

The true wedding is the Alchemic Wedding of our Spirit and Soul and here we can see many analogies.

The above outline of the human body I wrote out above shows the Spiritual Soul also called the Intellectual Soul as been separate from the other spiritual parts of the human body.

It is next to the Ego but as yet not joined.

The Spiritual Soul is the Soul – this is the women.
The Ego is the Spirit – this is the man.

We may think the Spiritual Soul or the Intellectual Soul is male however if we read Jung’s Amasia Uxor:

The Spiritual Soul is the Animus : the soul of a women, which is supposedly masculine and which concentrates in itself everything (historical and not historical) it experiences in relation to man.

The Ego is the Anima :  the soul of a man, which is supposedly feminine ie the Archetype of everything feminine experienced historically (and not historically) by a man.

In this way; love becomes a deep, numinous experience, with one’s own soul, with the Archetypes of the opposite within oneself.


It is my view the Alchemic Wedding is the joining of the Spiritual Soul with the Ego to become complete and therefore not need the cycle of reincarnation which develops the Spiritual Soul to attain the Alchemic Wedding with the Ego.

It is likened to;

The ultimate joining with Christ; the Bride and the Bridegroom.
The Sun (male) and the Moon (female) making love in the sky.

And with these great, symbolic analogies the ultimate joining of one’s Soul or Spirit Partner.

St. Valentine must be in the Air with this Love talk.

Sigh and lament!

:)

Even going 'beyond re-incarnation' are other parts of our whole or group possibly incarnated in the physical at the same time of us. I listened to a channeler on the paranormal talk show 'Ghostly Talk' and the channeler told one of the hosts that he existed now in time and space and two other parts of his 'soul essence' were also incarnate on earth.

He was in Michigan whereas two other 'selves' existed, one in Italy and one in Russia. Ever since I heard that I'm really intrigued as to how re-incarnation might really work. Does anyone else see it like this. There could be other me's even in this part of tiime and space. If time and space is just a thought construct and not a reality then logically it isn't too hard to grasp that our 'whole self' may split into a few different physical entities even at the same 'time'?

Never say die,

Michael

Hi Michael,

You can also check through the book forum topics on this site for further discussions of 'bilocation' or split selves.  Bruce gets into this in his books quite a bit. What you just reported makes it seem quite natural.


Bets

augoeideian wrote on Feb 8^th, 2007 at 4:41am:

Endlessly we search for ourselves, we seek for the true wedding of our spirit with our soul. It is not a group, it is not a disc, it is not a planet, it is not a zodiac sign, it is not one big happy family.  It is just you and me weaving a celestial dance in and out.  You come down, I go up.  I come down, you go up. How long do we seek for one another – how long do we stay in the realms of matter until we join and become whole again and not need this matter, above and below, to matter and we can fly as free as the wind a go wherever we want? Caryn's lament.

Hey dearlight, it's soon. much sooner than you think!

first welcome to afterlife knowledge forum Tdalek. ironically I was going thru some old papers this morning and became intrigued with something I'd written on this subject. It was about being or feeling like two people and I'd written it as a beginning outline to my book coming out this month RoadSigns. your topic is perhaps not so coincidental then.

I decided to blog the article at the address below this post where it says Blog in case you're interested in further pursuing this subject of incarnation, disc mates, essence, anima/animus, oneness or ontology of all life, we are in quite a range of topics and ideas here. great thread.

I should have the thing input this afternoon.

Albert I suspect this remark is too tidy and pat for you, but maybe Bruce will add something to the Joshua question. the way I see bringing in ailments or conditions from other lives into the current one is that it is dna information. karmic information. something didn't get worked out, so it gets carried over on purpose. perhaps so that Bruce could actually become aware of Joshua, who is just as important as Bruce, as I believe the retrieval of Joshua healed and put the matter of the liver question to rest by bringing to Bruce's awareness he is one with his greater self as well as one with Joshua.
   Retrievals themselves are healing situations. simply to become aware we are all one is in itself a healing thing and it is possible we come here to heal ourselves of the separation. a contracting and expansion principle of essence, the wave hits the shore then recedes back into the ocean, then it hits the shore again. the ocean wave loves hitting the shore and equally loves receding back to the ocean...its all the same to it.

ok, off to do me blog... http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

Hi there Tdalek! When I first found this board I was on daily....and I regret how busy things have become, and hope to be able to peek in more...anyway...the way I post, if I do at all, b/c of so many great threads I love to read..I usually do right after reading the first original post, and afterwards, I love to go back and read what everyone else has had to say on the sudject..the reason for this must be obvious.. ::) I'm long winded enough that I would end up writing a novel as I read each new post...lol...there are some beautiful minds here,so I'm sure you will have plenty of wonderful information on such a good question(s)!

I'm a person who has always believed in reincarnation...even though the church I was brought up in didn't share that belief. I think I've been blessed(whereas for years I felt the opposite for my sensitivities, cursed, but I accept myself in that sense much more today) in the way that after much soul searching,  and studying the major religions in the world to the best of my ability, I have found a very comfortable position with this question, b/c it used to bother me as well. I still have so much to learn,which is a good thing..this is one place that has given me such a better picture of beliefs I already had, and introduced new material for my hungry mind. Although research and study are some of my favorite things..in the end, any answer that I've come to really accept as truth for me...is the intuitive feeling I get when something "fits"...so I always, if I should be as bold as to ever offer any kind of "advice" would be that when you read or see or contemplate any questions...if you remain as open as possible..usually there will be an intuitive feeling about what holds true for you...like an "Ah ha!" experience. We are all individual, and all take in information at our own rates, and as we grow in life, these questions may come back at random times, and our understanding starts to expand and become more and more clear....here I go with the long winded stuff..have pity it's about 4:30am where I'm at, and yet to have some shut eye.. :P

Anything I ever write is of course,my own reality and/or opinion on the subject..and I never want to state those as "fact" but just as ideas shared..so enough disclaimers...lol...Identity...personailty....deep stuff..and sometimes semantics can get me in trouble, so I'll try to "dumb down"my reply for my sake only ;) I deeply believe in reincarnation..and feel I have had many earth lives..I've been luckly enough to have had some past life regfressions done by some of the best..and the insights I got were invaluable! After that, I have been able to kind of tune in on other lifetimes on my own, often through visions, or in dreams sometimes...I recognize so many people as people I've cycled with before, and amazed at how we switch roles,and I see the value of learning and karma in that. I really believe we have soul families,and are working out karma, and by using different roles, we gather more experience,the best kind of teacher....to me earth lives are kind of like crash courses in putting spiritual principles we learn on the "other side"to work by testing and enriching our knowledge. It used to trouble me, thinking, what of our individulaities,personalities...and then one day it all fit together almost at once,and I was like, "Of course!"...the challenge here is expressing this right now....

In my humble opinion, there are certain factors that determine personality..and our experience as individuals in our earth lives..and taking it a step further,I really think we actually try to set up the conditions that would alter those,for the purpose of learning the experience in these varying states of being.Depression, mental illnesses,and meantal wellness for that matter, can be altered significantly due to the chemical chemistry in our brains.....too little of this,causes a reaction, too much of that,causes another...etc..and if we are born with defects that alter our experience in that life,we then experience an entirely different life. Also,there are cultural differences,sex roles..all these things alter our realities and personalities and egos in that lifetime....nature vs. nurture....genetics and environment...all these factor in...however,our soul(sematics again) spirit..that is what I think of as my true self, is unaffected by the physical "make up" of that one life while we live it,and it holds all those lifetime experiences,and I feel that when we cross over, we get to review not only our last lifetime, but our other ones, and evaluate ourselves and our growth,and start planning on what additional experiences or conditions in the next incarnation would help us to work on areas we want to expand upon....but I believe that we remember the experiences, but that our earth personalities, which are even changable in some ways,are a small fraction of who and what we really are. I feel the identity in the afterlife is a constant, since we are sexless(my belief) or at least can choose how we present ourselves in spirit, but that no matter how many lifetimes...it is entirely compatible to the soul/person we are. I think of it as before I went to college(and I'll go back again when I can) I learned so much,academically,and socially,new experiences..but that after that,I am still the same person...but just more educated,and education can alter some old beliefs that might not serve me so well anymore,but I don't lose me..I enrich me, by taking what I need, and discarding anything that is in the way of growth and/or my happiness. I also think of it like, when I was an infant, then all the stages through life..I might change many times, even drastically in many ways..but it dosen't threaten who is inside ,my essence,and instead of losing the personalities I had in my earth lifetimes, they merge,to add to, or reflect..and I own all of them.I know this might be kind of hard to follow,b/c I know there's a much more eloquent way to describe what I'm trying to say...but the sleep or lack of might be affecting the way I'm presenting this....bear with me..:)

In my other humble opinion, as far as meeting our loved ones..I know my grandmom, for one,shows herself to me at first how I remembered her before she died..but as I speak with her, she is in her early 20's...but there's no mistaking it's her..her energy is familiar and unique. But as we cross and are met,I believe there are also helpers of some kind to help understanding of our experience..and then also,I believe when we die, that we are granted a kind of understanding that is normally out of reach in our daily lives, and surface minds. I can see how it could seem intimidating,or sad,or disturbing to think that we lose who we are as we know it..but honestly in my heart,I don't think we lose anything but rather gain..and that the core of who we are is always there...so much more to say on this subject..I even think our subconscious mind holds so much of the answers....and I like the fact that you are able to present that question in a very understandable way, even if this reply might seem all over the place...lol...but I know that asking is the key,and allowing your mind to think of these thngs....if you are asking these questions..they will be answered,b/c your mind will keep working on it,even if we are unaware...and your mind and soul will be putting it together in it's own unique way...there is the section of dreams on this site, too, if you dream ,sometimes our dreams will answer alot...and you'll keep getting wonderful responses from some great minds here,and the best we can do is keep our minds open,and your own unique mind and soul will always be there for you,we are eternal beings..oh and a last thought,would be that in each lifetime, often at first, the afterlife we expect (maybe influenced by religion, depending on the life, or lack of...etc) would be what we experience at first,if it is a strong belief system around afterlife...so that we can kind of process things how we need,and for comfort,and help in accepting our recent "death" but I firmly believe that more will be revealed all the time, and that we do have our "families"or guides that will help us put it all together,surprisingly harmoniously.

What a mouthful,as usual! ;D Lastly, I guess the simplest way to sum it up in an overused perhaps trite saying would be "We get what we need"...I hope you keep exploring and writing,and sparking some great threads...I am trying to make my way here more often...take care, Tanja

good to see you return Tanja, really! please keep in mind to do your book someday, I sense a beautiful flow to your words. love to you, alysia :)

Heya Tanja!

Dearest Alysia  :)


Quote:

Hey dearlight, it's soon. much sooner than you think!

Thanks  :D do you think so?

Well, if its the end of a precession cycle of the equinox, shift of the polar star, and the planetary indications of the Galactic centre crossing the ecliptic path of the Sun (as AhSo was talking about) it might just be!!

As we read in the Bible;
And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.  Isaiah 2:19

or

Therefore I will shake the heavens and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isaiah 13:13

"O weep daughter of Zion, for they have said to you peace there is peace in the world when there is no peace".


Chumley .. will really like this post !

Keep well Alysia.

that stuff is way over my head Caryn, I was just referring from the viewpoint that once we die it seems the life was rather short from that perspective. this overview gained either in an NDE or actual death leaving of the body, is that to us here now, time seems to drag, all these horrible things predicted whereever, never actually happen to the degree of one's images and another's visions or writings, but are soul journeys of individuals to my perception who are all in agreement to undergo that, or else to be modifying those happenings.

so all good reason to be of cheer and make a joyful noise unto whoever will listen..bye, you just scared the hell out of me.... :)

Alysia, I'm sorry it was not my intention to scare.  It is recorded in the Spiritual Book.

And the wrath of God is mighty; however if we believe in God what do we have to fear?

:)

thanks Caryn, I'm ok! :)  yesterday was agitated over something but couldn't put my finger on it and read your post and flipped into my own hell somewhere, not your fault.

you're absolutely right, there is a level of mind where we will all be taken care of no matter what we see going on in the world, we will be calm and know just what to do.

love, alysia

Lots of love Alysia  :)

Hi,

in meditation I was shown a few times persons in scenes of their lives, where I suddenly "knew" it was me. The scenes I was shown in these cases mostly were bitter, and I was emotionally affected. It taught me what I should look at in this life. It of course makes you think of karma; in my case, it were hints, hard hints, but useful.
I have also seen many many persons who were "suggested" to be me, but I had not the same emotional instinctive "it's me"-impact.
There are some possibilities what this could be, and maybe even all together are true in a way, as it could all be very different to the physical time-space-matter- scheme.
1. Thinking of the most intense "it's me" persons, it feels like I really was these persons. I took many characteristics of these persons with me into the following lives.
What is strange though, I have had also glimpses of the in-between-incarnation state, and there I seemed to be much more insightful than in the lives before and after this nonphysical episode. But I also have hints that in some in-between states I wasn't insightful but turned away from wisdom and got lonely.
2. Another possibility I see is the already discussed higher-self one. I feel and have some experiences that there is a group where I belong to, where I badly and deeply belong to. This can be called collective identity, and I know this state of consciousness exists. But there are also states of awareness that lead beyond of what is usually called "collective", and it is beyond language. You know some people tell about very deep moving and changing experiences they have had in meditation (or this is called "contemplation"), but they tell almost nothing- because it can't be told. Usually "unity" or similar words are said. I want to point out that it is possible that there are different consciousness states, or levels, and all are simultaneously there and true.

So to me it seems possible that we 1. are having linear reincarnations (same character with different clothes so to say), possibly together with souls we already know, 2. as well are part of a collective, maybe with different types of members, some having a reincarnation line running, some not (off-disk-members and permanent disk members Bruce has called this), and it is quite not clear to what degree this higher self members are able to melt together or to split apart, and new members can be created, and 3. each person is the "I" of this collective as a whole (so they're one); further hierarchy up steps possible, if not likely (up to the all that is, God you can call it). And all this simultaneaous, depending of the viewpoint.

I also think of this: Even when we consider the "linear mode" of reincarnation ("back then I was X, then Y, and now Z") it could be that these type of past lifes are having a "life on its own", in the meaning that our higher self is a sort of database. Everything is there, and maybe in a sense these past lifes are even running all the "time". Time may not be the same as it is in the physical.

Another thing, it's sometimes hard for me to figure out in my mind journeys what is a piece from the database, something which happened in the physical, and what is a discarnated soul who is stuck in a thought-form environment and this soul having him/herself a rerun of the last life, or variations of it; there are indicators that some of these are not the full person they have been, but fragments, split off from the rest of the former entire person.

But some say you can change the past, so that there is no fixed past. I can't proof the opposite.

Finally, think of this. Whenever a person is melting with another person, or into the higher self, there is no loss of the "I". It is as if you are more experienced, like you once were a child, and now you are grown, but still "I".

Spooky

I agree or resonate Spooky with your thoughts. its a lot to think about.
just to add some thoughts from A course in miracles regarding time and that we are thoughts of god. it says the journey is already done. thought about that many years actually.
came across in "Disappearance of the Universe" book, some thoughts I had thought. it said that the universe is holographic thought. I imagine we are units of individual awareness within holographic thought principle. so that we enter the film, the movie of life as probes and fingers of the unlimited one. so to experience all our experiences as an individual and bring something back to the disc idea.

ACIM implies the script is written, even to the day of death, however it remains that the choices we still retain to adhere to the script as planned or deviate into another possibility or choice; it appears in that way we outpicture illness if we have chosen away from our intention although I'm convinced sometimes illness can be changed into an unexpected positive outcome, the exception to the rule is what causes growth.

ACIM makes the path of growth easy to say forgiveness changes our path of growth effecting everyone around us in numerous unseen ways effectively to bring in what is called the kingdom of god in long ago times, and which now we prefer to call the shift in consciousness, being modern and all, lol..or the age of Aquarious is very good.

thanks Spooky, I hope we don't lose ourselves while we find all these other selves who are us..but I must admit it's always joyful to meet myself out there.
love, alysia

Nice post Spooky, lots to think about.  Alysia the thing is if we/when we agree with the wise philosophers God is beyond time and space therefore the Kingdom of God cannot be placed in a time era like long ago.  And who does the Age of Aquarius belong to .. it belongs to the Kingdom of God doesn't it?

Just my mussings.

Alysia:

Considering that retrievels are done all the time without some connecting physical ailment, I don't believe that it would be necessary for Bruce to have a liver disease in order to retrieve Joshua.

Regarding Karma being passed on, if Joshua was killed with a spear, why would he have karma to deal with? I've considered the possibility that because Joshua is one of Bruce's disc mates, perhaps there was an energetic connection between them that caused Bruce to have a physical problem.  I don't know the precise details of how this works.



LaffingRain wrote on Feb 10^th, 2007 at 4:03pm:

Albert I suspect this remark is too tidy and pat for you, but maybe Bruce will add something to the Joshua question. the way I see bringing in ailments or conditions from other lives into the current one is that it is dna information. karmic information. something didn't get worked out, so it gets carried over on purpose. perhaps so that Bruce could actually become aware of Joshua, who is just as important as Bruce, as I believe the retrieval of Joshua healed and put the matter of the liver question to rest by bringing to Bruce's awareness he is one with his greater self as well as one with Joshua.    Retrievals themselves are healing situations. simply to become aware we are all one is in itself a healing thing and it is possible we come here to heal ourselves of the separation. a contracting and expansion principle of essence, the wave hits the shore then recedes back into the ocean, then it hits the shore again. the ocean wave loves hitting the shore and equally loves receding back to the ocean...its all the same to it. ok, off to do me blog... http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

Alysia:

I hope the below is true, because I like the script my guidance has been pointing out to me.


[quote author=laffingrain link=1170838580/15#25 date=1171510067]

ACIM implies the script is written, even to the day of death, however it remains that the choices we still retain to adhere to the script as planned or deviate into another possibility or choice; it appears in that way we outpicture illness if we have chosen away from our intention although I'm convinced sometimes illness can be changed into an unexpected positive outcome, the exception to the rule is what causes growth.

Spooky. Comments below.


[quote author=spooky2 link=1170838580/15#24 date=1171506670]Hi,


I also think of this: Even when we consider the "linear mode" of reincarnation ("back then I was X, then Y, and now Z") it could be that these type of past lifes are having a "life on its own", in the meaning that our higher self is a sort of database. Everything is there, and maybe in a sense these past lifes are even running all the "time". Time may not be the same as it is in the physical.

"I feel the above Spooky. Perhaps we should look at our various selves that exist in different time periods, similar to how we look at the cells of our body. If we focus on one cell, we experience only that period of time. If we focus on our entire body we experience all of our selves with an understanding of the overall result. This doesn't mean that a difficult life of a particular cell has to be experienced for all of eternity. It isn't until we experience our entire self/body that eternity is revealed."


Another thing, it's sometimes hard for me to figure out in my mind journeys what is a piece
Finally, think of this. Whenever a person is melting with another person, or into the higher self, there is no loss of the "I". It is as if you are more experienced, like you once were a child, and now you are grown, but still "I".

"I've been thinking the same way lately. It isn't a matter of losing the small I. It is more of a matter of becoming the total you.  If you're standing on a plateu and looking at a beautiful view that stretches out for miles, why focus your attention on just one little part of what can be seen?"

Hi This medium told me and Deanna that we have been twin sisters through many lifetimes,so i think that me and Deanna have never really lost our identity.

Love and God bless     love juditha.

Albert said:  Alysia:

Considering that retrievels are done all the time without some connecting physical ailment, I don't believe that it would be necessary for Bruce to have a liver disease in order to retrieve Joshua.
____
correct, it's not that it's necessary, just a possibility that Bruce was to have the aide of Joshua's blueprint in this lifetime, for that connection to be made.
have read too many stories of afflictions on the body showing up from other incarnations not to recognize this does happen; I suppose aside from retrievals, we are here to heal ourselves regardless which lifetime, which body. We sometimes can carry an illness to represent an erroneous belief system around, once we no longer believe we need it, we can move on from the limitations and heal ourselves.
______


Albert says:
Regarding Karma being passed on, if Joshua was killed with a spear, why would he have karma to deal with? I've considered the possibility that because Joshua is one of Bruce's disc mates, perhaps there was an energetic connection between them that caused Bruce to have a physical problem.  I don't know the precise details of how this works.
____

I'm sure you're right, energetic connection is surely there. Perhaps there was an agreement that this would be an opportunity for Bruce to discover the connection and therefore heal the condition and discover he had the power to heal himself this way.

_____

If Joshua was killed with a spear, you asked why would Bruce has to "pay" the price?
I don't see it as karma. but we could look at it this way; that at the moment of truamatic death by spear, there was set up in Joshua a guilt feeling that of maybe like this: SON OF A GUN! I'VE DONE AND GOT MYSELF KILLED AGAIN! MUST BE SOMETHING I COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS!  I'm just conjecturing, that the experience we gain here is to include experiences of expiration and during one such era, spears were what was used.
The soul knows when it enters a planet like this, the possiblities for being slain are numerous and survival is the name of the game. If one did not survive, then I assume there are exit points and Joshua took one of them with the spear. But maybe he started blaming himself, in between, and said, well I see I could have avoided it if I'd taken a detour that day like intuition said...

so I would say guilt is something to look at when you start looking at your life, or other lives as its a form of self judgment. Maybe Bruce needed to forgive Joshua, or forgive himself to heal himself, to be a "new person."

Still hoping to hear from Bruce because it's his story, and like I said, I've read too many instances similar to this one to not believe it.

augoeideian wrote on Feb 15^th, 2007 at 7:55am:

Nice post Spooky, lots to think about.  Alysia the thing is if we/when we agree with the wise philosophers God is beyond time and space therefore the Kingdom of God cannot be placed in a time era like long ago.  And who does the Age of Aquarius belong to .. it belongs to the Kingdom of God doesn't it? Just my mussings. __________ yes age of Aquarius belongs to anyone who accepts it, I'd call the kingdom of god and the shift in consciousness and the age of Aquarius all the same thing or idea. I really don't see the kingdom of god concept as anything other than an individual state of consciousness which happens like in the hundredth monkey idea, if that makes sense. the kingdom is within. thats what I mean to say, if you look for it out there, might be a problem with that. god is beyond time and space but so can we be people who are beyond time and space. great thoughts from great people here. just sharing myself too, enjoy your musings. alysia

Great stuff Alysia  :D  

God and His Mansions of Hosts is such a tangible elusive perception.  One does look for a connection into the sublime realms with God and once this connection is made it is very hard to explain.  And so Faith is the word which describes this connection.

Love
Caryn