I was just curious on what your guy's take is on what happens to those who die in mortal sin?? Do they automatically go to hell, with others who are like them (law of attraction)... Say, I was a addicted to porn, and died of a heart attack from beating off to porn, would I go straight to hell?? Even, If I was a good person at heart??? What I'm trying to get at is if it is just  rhetoric religious propaganda bull shit??? Just throw sins out the window basically or no??? Think you deserve a good place in heaven, and forgive yourself? Because God will always forgive you...  

Also, how do we know for sure that we create our own reality?? Because some near death experiences, I have read people said God was a wrathful deity, who sentenced people to eternity? Or do you think these people, created a God like that???

I just don't want to be wrong about my beliefs and than end up in hell for eternity!!! I'm so confused, because I was brought up catholic!! They crammed the whole fire and brimsstone down my throat!! I am so scared I am not living up to God's word!! Someone please help me bring hope back into my life!!! Peace and love!!

I believe that we underestimate God's intelligence.  Would it not be illogical for an all-possitive God to demand eternal flame because you dared practice your free will that God gave you?  I would expect God to be far more dimensional than that about life and death than just in a state of unconditional Heaven or Hell. Granted, that is not to say killing and rape are okay because there is no punishment.  The golden rule is a wonderful thing.   :)

Take the common belief that infants who die in birth get instant heaven.  Imagine what logic about abortion would arise from such a belief!   :-?  I am not a big fan of abortion either but that examplary belief would seem to justify it to save a child's soul.  Ludicrous isn't it; but you don't have to take MY word for it.

Think about it:  A God who has the temperment of a person like Joseph Stalin and serves as "Judge, Jury and Executioneer?"  Not an example I would want to follow.  

Remember, this is just my opinion so take what you will.  I have been know to change opinions over time too as I accumulate experience.   :)

Steve Σd

I believe that we underestimate God's intelligence.  Would it not be illogical for an all-possitive God to demand eternal flame because you dared practice your free will that God gave you?  I would expect God to be far more dimensional than that about life and death than just in a state of unconditional Heaven or Hell. Granted, that is not to say killing and rape are okay because there is no punishment.  The golden rule is a wonderful thing.   :)

Take the common belief that infants who die in birth get instant heaven.  Imagine what logic about abortion would arise from such a belief!   :-?  I am not a big fan of abortion either but that examplary belief would seem to justify it to save a child's soul.  Ludicrous isn't it; but you don't have to take MY word for it.

Think about it:  A God who has the temperment of a person like Joseph Stalin and serves as "Judge, Jury and Executioneer?"  Not an example I would want to follow.  

Remember, this is just my opinion so take what you will.  I have been know to change opinions over time too as I accumulate experience.   :)
*****************
Hey Steve, just one thing.
I'd like to think you'd NEVER bow down to a cruel torturer-god,
even if "His" existence was scientifically proven!!!
(Me, I'd like to think I'd go back to college, study quantum physics,
and try to learn how to make a "trans-dimensional black hole-powered brane-disruptor torpedo" or whatever in an earnest, life-long
effort to try and KILL such a "God"!)
Some opinions SHOULDN'T be changed (even in the face of overwhelming power!) Such is what makes a man a higher life
form, than a dog...

B-man

Quote:

Hey Steve, just one thing. I'd like to think you'd NEVER bow down to a cruel torturer-god, even if "His" existence was scientifically proven!!! (Me, I'd like to think I'd go back to college, study quantum physics, and try to learn how to make a "trans-dimensional black hole-powered brane-disruptor torpedo" or whatever in an earnest, life-long effort to try and KILL such a "God"!) Some opinions SHOULDN'T be changed (even in the face of overwhelming power!) Such is what makes a man a higher life form, than a dog... B-man

I do not think we have to worry about that cruel and torturing God.  I was just talking about God for the sake of discussion even though it does not fit into my current ideas about how the realities work.  In other words, relax, you're in no danger of that Ludicrous Guy on the throne.

Also, I do agree with you that one's opinion should not be forced to change.  That is breaking the rules of this game of physical life and brings all the suffering that we are familiar with.  Anyway, I am here for you Chumley so just PM me if you desire more discussion.

Steve_Σd

Hi Alex Wolf  There is no hell in the spirit world only a lowest plain were really evil people go like murderers and warmongers,but even then the higher spirits come down to this plain and open there loving arms and ask who wants to be saved and those who do want to be saved are lifted up to the higher plains.

There is only love progression and forgiveness in the spirit world ,which our true most loving God created for us,this is why he sent his beloved son to die on the cross for our sins.

There is no such thing as hell and brimstone,god loves us and thats why he gave us freewill to think and act for ourselves in life.He knows all of us are not perfect and he does  not expect us to be.

When you go to the spirit world one day,you will find nothing but pure unconditional love and no hell or anything like that,hell does not exist its a manmade word.

Love and God bless     Love Juditha

Thank you everyone for helping me out!! I was just born and raised Catholic, so I have that damn fire and brimstone cancer of the brain... I never really believed it just thought maybe what if they are right? The more I think about their version of our beloved God, it makes no sense at all... When God knows all why would he create us, if he knew some of us would go to hell.. Also, when he loves us unconditionally, why would he do something like that?? Than our family members who saw that we were stuck in hell forever, how could they be happy in heaven!! IT makes no sense!! That's why I agree with what you guys have to say, and I am turning  more into a spiritualist.. I'm mainly a Christian Universalist though...

Well, thanks again I love this place!! I already feel at home at this place and I'm a newbie here!!

BTW no one answered my question about why people have near death experiences of a Wrathful God, who co-signs people to hell for all eternity... Does anyone want to have a go on that one??? IT sure as hell confuses me!!!              

Alex

I'm not sure if you've read Bruce's Free Articles - click on the link at the top of this page.  They will give  you a different perspective into some of the questions that you've asked.

Irene

black_panther wrote on Jan 27^th, 2007 at 7:17pm:

Alex I'm not sure if you've read Bruce's Free Articles - click on the link at the top of this page.  They will give  you a different perspective into some of the questions that you've asked. Irene

Thank you for helping me out!  ;)

Some of us want a terrifying God, others want a loving God. God is both. You get to see God as you feel appropriate. At death we leave the body and, if we allow it, we merge into the levels of abstract God-stuff in the spirit levels. Those who are willing to abandon their earthly desires can stay united with God forever - the eternity of heaven for the just - and those whose desires still remain for earthly things eventually find that they have reattached themselves back to earth, and they get reborn. So that's why we have an "eternal reward", but we keep rebirthing.

"Sin" is a construct that refers to errors of judgement. Because we are all interdependent, what goes around comes around, and we are allowed to discopver that certain things are a very poor idea indeed. I shudder at the thought of the karma of torturers and those who kill for profit (or for oil), because they have opened that can of experiences and now must work through it in some manner - usually an unpleasant manner. Also, because we, as a nation, are involved in that sort of thing, we're going to get some feedback from that as well. It operates on all levels.

One way to look at this is that God suddenly gave off billions of personalities, each a teeny bit different. Here we are, those same personaities, running around and trying to make sense of things. Some of us make mistakes, others do ont. God thus learns about the experience of existence through us, as we act as sensors and extensions, spanning the whole of space and time. Who knows, you might be God's finger tip or the equivalent.

PUL
d

dave_a_mbs wrote on Jan 28^th, 2007 at 5:30pm:

Some of us want a terrifying God, others want a loving God. God is both. You get to see God as you feel appropriate. At death we leave the body and, if we allow it, we merge into the levels of abstract God-stuff in the spirit levels. Those who are willing to abandon their earthly desires can stay united with God forever - the eternity of heaven for the just - and those whose desires still remain for earthly things eventually find that they have reattached themselves back to earth, and they get reborn. So that's why we have an "eternal reward", but we keep rebirthing. "Sin" is a construct that refers to errors of judgement. Because we are all interdependent, what goes around comes around, and we are allowed to discopver that certain things are a very poor idea indeed. I shudder at the thought of the karma of torturers and those who kill for profit (or for oil), because they have opened that can of experiences and now must work through it in some manner - usually an unpleasant manner. Also, because we, as a nation, are involved in that sort of thing, we're going to get some feedback from that as well. It operates on all levels. One way to look at this is that God suddenly gave off billions of personalities, each a teeny bit different. Here we are, those same personaities, running around and trying to make sense of things. Some of us make mistakes, others do ont. God thus learns about the experience of existence through us, as we act as sensors and extensions, spanning the whole of space and time. Who knows, you might be God's finger tip or the equivalent. PUL d

That explains everything to me.  So, if  some people want a terrifying God wouldn't they be in a hollow heaven, since God really isn't like that??? Thanks for replying to my question and answering it very well indeed!!

I believe that the reason God sent Jesus to earth was so that he could learn the way of the human.  God tried understanding humans to begin with but he wiped them all out after becoming frustrated with them.

Jesus was born human in the most humble of circumstances and then lived and died as a human being.  He experienced every emotion we ever have.  I'm so thankful He did this because this is how the gates of heaven were opened.  Where did people go who died before Jesus died?  I ain't got a clue.  Maybe to a nice, lovely holding dimention until the gates were opened and then a filtering of sorts could start.  Even Jesus, as his final moments came, showed his humanly emotion of hurt as he asked God why he had forsaken him.  I guess I'd ask the same question if I was hung up there like He was.  Jesus has many moments when he felt weak and what did he do?  He would fast and meditate and ask for strength.

Jesus intercedes for us, pleads his case for us kinda, because he knows what its like to live as a human being with free will.  We are all sinners.  We all screw up and fall off the path.  If we're truly sorry for hurting some one or hurting ourselves, we will be forgiven.  What if we screw up again on the same issue?  Expected!  It's okay.  Keep trying to keep on the right path and be sincere when you ask for forgiveness.... and strength to do better.

I believe God comes across as wrathful sometimes because he's pissed off about something you've done.  It's simple to me.  Only He knows the true workings of your mind so lots of things play into how harshly or how lovingly He comes across.  Are we supposed to know WHY right now?  No.  

What does 'saved' mean?  It means you accept God into your life as your Lord and Savior.  You can become 'saved' in the presence of others or all alone by yourself.  So if you're saved does that mean you go to heaven when you die no matter what you do to yourself or others in your life?

Why do babies and children under the age of 3 go to directly heaven when they die?  Because before then they don't understand the concept of knowing right from wrong yet.

Why do Catholics practice Holy Communion?  Because its a reinactment of the last supper.  Who was at the table?  Peter and Judas.  Again, we are sinners and Jesus understands this.  He loves us any darned way though.  Isn't it ironic that Peter is the Gatekeeper? Hmmm.....

I know I rambled.  I don't want to get caught up in any war of words for sure but all I know is that I believe even though I have not seen.  


:D

Well, Bear Fan, I think that God is sort of  like your word processor - what you see is what you get. If you look at God as a source of all good, then that's what you'll experience. If you look at God as the source of all agonies, then that's what you experience. To try to limit God's nature is like trying to describe the edges of an infinte space extending for infinite time - the thought is pretty much beyond our comprehension. What we can say is that our experiences of God seem totally determined subjectively. We also can add that God must be logically self consistent and must generally work through mechanisms that are logical (like karma - simple cause and effect) - with the rare exceptions of miracles.

Aside from activities that involve others, I don't think God cares much about our personal lives, and I imagine that the hypothetical pornographic masturbator will have to work out those personal issues alone. Men have an ample supply of sperm and generate billions more daily. A few million sacrified while making love to the bathroom sink are trivial. Women have a relatively fixed supply of ova, and to bypass the chances of an unpleasant union with a bad husband and the danger of childbirth in a hostile home, a woman can select one of those things with batteries, and solve the tensions of the moment. This harms nobody. It's the prudes who still carry the Puritan torch who get bothered and actually, it's none of their business.

If you accept the basic idea that when God started, there were no building materials available. So everything was created out of "God stuff" because that's what was there. There were no contracts to deliver half a galaxy's worth of concrete and bricks. That implies that whatever we are is an extension of that same creation out of "God stuff", and thus we share the nature of everything. "God stuff" looks like obdurate matter to us, but on the atomic level it's mostly empty space, and when we go to the Planck level we find that we're dealing with the wave mechanics of potentialities. They only act like rocks and fireplugs because that's how those patterns of waves interact according to the logic of their composition. However, every wave and ripple in the cosmic system is related to every other ripple, and everything is interdefinitive.

So God has the potentiality to be presented according to the definitions that are imposed by the location in logical space of the viewpoint doing the perceiving, and that is defined by the history of that viewpoint, since that's how the viewpoint establishes its nature. If that history has been positive with respect to activities, with respect to truth and logic, and with respect to unity, then God presents as a favorable extension into the lext level of existence. Or, if the history of that viewpoint has been resentful and grim, deluded and filled with opinions and lies, and angry and rejecting of others, then God will appear in that mode. The difference in our experiences of God lies not in God, but in ourselves. The higher levels of experience seem to be available through our not only adopting joy, wisdom and love, but also from our removal of competitive earthly desires, as we replace them with transcendental desires.
PUL
dave

 

I believe that the reason God sent Jesus to earth was so that he could learn the way of the human.  God tried understanding humans to begin with but he wiped them all out after becoming frustrated with them.
*****************
-If "God" is omniscient, why can't he understand his own creations?
Are you saying that your god is some kind of intergalactic moron?
Maybe that argument might have worked for a bunch of ignorant
sheep-herding humanoid garbage 3000 years ago, but I'd like to
think that modern people are capable of deeper thought. (Or am I mistaken about that? If so, America is pretty much done for...)
_________________

Jesus was born human in the most humble of circumstances and then lived and died as a human being.  He experienced every emotion we ever have.  I'm so thankful He did this because this is how the gates of heaven were opened.  Where did people go who died before Jesus died?  I ain't got a clue.  Maybe to a nice, lovely holding dimention until the gates were opened and then a filtering of sorts could start.  Even Jesus, as his final moments came, showed his humanly emotion of hurt as he asked God why he had forsaken him.  I guess I'd ask the same question if I was hung up there like He was.  Jesus has many moments when he felt weak and what did he do?  He would fast and meditate and ask for strength.

Jesus intercedes for us, pleads his case for us kinda, because he knows what its like to live as a human being with free will.  We are all sinners.  We all screw up and fall off the path.  If we're truly sorry for hurting some one or hurting ourselves, we will be forgiven.  What if we screw up again on the same issue?  Expected!  It's okay.  Keep trying to keep on the right path and be sincere when you ask for forgiveness.... and strength to do better.
*****************
-Forgiveness? What for? Because some stupid caveman and his wife ate an apple..?
_________________

I believe God comes across as wrathful sometimes because he's pissed off about something you've done. It's simple to me.  Only He knows the true workings of your mind so lots of things play into how harshly or how lovingly He comes across.  Are we supposed to know WHY right now?  No.
*****************
-So we're supposed to check our brains at the church door, and
just BELIEVE, eh? (Say Kate, I have some nice oceanfront property
in Nevada that I'm selling. PM me if you're interested...)
_________________  

What does 'saved' mean?  It means you accept God into your life as your Lord and Savior.  You can become 'saved' in the presence of others or all alone by yourself.  So if you're saved does that mean you go to heaven when you die no matter what you do to yourself or others in your life?

Why do babies and children under the age of 3 go to directly heaven when they die?  Because before then they don't understand the concept of knowing right from wrong yet.
*****************
-SO... there's kids 4, 5, 6 years old in HELL, having red-hot tamping
rods shoved in and out of their a$$es while demons fondle themselves, lick their lips, and drool, eh..?
That's medieval morality for ya..!
The persistence of this vile religion into the 21st century shows
more than anything, that we descended from freaking APES...
Your "God" can go f*ck himself. I REJECT his long-haired
doofus of a "son" (Who probably never even existed, so he's a
FICTIONAL doofus to boot) AND I'll
leave "Heaven" to groveling, genuflecting, ignorant fish like you
(fortunately for me, the universe probably isn't quite the
sh!thole you think it is, Kate...) Nonetheless -
The "God" you just described, is a being which deserves our
eternal HATRED and if "His" son ever DID "return in glory in the sky"
to haul everyone off to judgement, humanity would
be MORALLY RIGHT to fire off every nuke we had at "Him."
Christianity... a religion for LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
'Nuff said...

B-man

P.S. Kate... how is it possible to be so IGNORANT, and yet
function in day-to-day life? It must be pleasant to go through
life without ever thinkin. What IS it like to run on auto-pilot
all day, and let the preachers do all your thinking for you..?

dave_a_mbs wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 6:20pm:

Well, Bear Fan, I think that God is sort of  like your word processor - what you see is what you get. If you look at God as a source of all good, then that's what you'll experience. If you look at God as the source of all agonies, then that's what you experience. To try to limit God's nature is like trying to describe the edges of an infinte space extending for infinite time - the thought is pretty much beyond our comprehension. What we can say is that our experiences of God seem totally determined subjectively. We also can add that God must be logically self consistent and must generally work through mechanisms that are logical (like karma - simple cause and effect) - with the rare exceptions of miracles. Aside from activities that involve others, I don't think God cares much about our personal lives, and I imagine that the hypothetical pornographic masturbator will have to work out those personal issues alone. Men have an ample supply of sperm and generate billions more daily. A few million sacrified while making love to the bathroom sink are trivial. Women have a relatively fixed supply of ova, and to bypass the chances of an unpleasant union with a bad husband and the danger of childbirth in a hostile home, a woman can select one of those things with batteries, and solve the tensions of the moment. This harms nobody. It's the prudes who still carry the Puritan torch who get bothered and actually, it's none of their business. If you accept the basic idea that when God started, there were no building materials available. So everything was created out of "God stuff" because that's what was there. There were no contracts to deliver half a galaxy's worth of concrete and bricks. That implies that whatever we are is an extension of that same creation out of "God stuff", and thus we share the nature of everything. "God stuff" looks like obdurate matter to us, but on the atomic level it's mostly empty space, and when we go to the Planck level we find that we're dealing with the wave mechanics of potentialities. They only act like rocks and fireplugs because that's how those patterns of waves interact according to the logic of their composition. However, every wave and ripple in the cosmic system is related to every other ripple, and everything is interdefinitive. So God has the potentiality to be presented according to the definitions that are imposed by the location in logical space of the viewpoint doing the perceiving, and that is defined by the history of that viewpoint, since that's how the viewpoint establishes its nature. If that history has been positive with respect to activities, with respect to truth and logic, and with respect to unity, then God presents as a favorable extension into the lext level of existence. Or, if the history of that viewpoint has been resentful and grim, deluded and filled with opinions and lies, and angry and rejecting of others, then God will appear in that mode. The difference in our experiences of God lies not in God, but in ourselves. The higher levels of experience seem to be available through our not only adopting joy, wisdom and love, but also from our removal of competitive earthly desires, as we replace them with transcendental desires. PUL dave

Interesting, good thing I believe God is a Lover and not a sadistic monster...

Hi Da Bear,

I think this might be a bit of misinterpretation of what Dave said. What I mean is, there is no sadistic monster, except in your own mind.

We are what we think. Literally. We need to pay very very very close attention to what we think. That seems to me to be the message of many great messengers to our planet.

Is it loving? Is it kind?

(not in a sappy, sentimental way....but does it contribute value to the situation at hand)

I find that I am as subject to delusion as any other human being....but it was a wise man who once said that "most people are as happy as they make their minds up to be" and is that EVER the truth!

love, blink

wrote on Jan 29^th, 2007 at 8:17pm:

Hi Da Bear, I think this might be a bit of misinterpretation of what Dave said. What I mean is, there is no sadistic monster, except in your own mind. We are what we think. Literally. We need to pay very very very close attention to what we think. That seems to me to be the message of many great messengers to our planet. Is it loving? Is it kind? (not in a sappy, sentimental way....but does it contribute value to the situation at hand) I find that I am as subject to delusion as any other human being....but it was a wise man who once said that "most people are as happy as they make their minds up to be" and is that EVER the truth! love, blink

Okay so we are bound by what we think basically..

-If "God" is omniscient, why can't he understand his own creations?
Are you saying that your god is some kind of intergalactic moron?
Maybe that argument might have worked for a bunch of ignorant
sheep-herding humanoid garbage 3000 years ago, but I'd like to
think that modern people are capable of deeper thought. (Or am I mistaken about that? If so, America is pretty much done for...)


Forgiveness? What for? Because some stupid caveman and his wife ate an apple..?

Thanks for the visual!  ;D


-So we're supposed to check our brains at the church door, and
just BELIEVE, eh? (Say Kate, I have some nice oceanfront property
in Nevada that I'm selling. PM me if you're interested...)

I'm laughing my butt off.   ;D


P.S. Kate... how is it possible to be so IGNORANT, and yet
function in day-to-day life? It must be pleasant to go through
life without ever thinkin. What IS it like to run on auto-pilot
all day, and let the preachers do all your thinking for you..?


[smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

Great post Dave and Blink and Kate  :) lol ... Chumley careful you don't spontaneously combust yourself!!

We don't quite have the same level of christian loonies etc a good thing about having only 20 million people and a younger country than yours, we don't have the same level of history and many people in our country are atheists/agnostics, moreso compared to alot of countries. I myself am firmly spiritual but without a religious guise.

In Australia we have growing ethnic tension between Muslims and Christians. Figureheads of the Muslim associations here have received bad press for their anti western views. The conservative government has received strong criticism by the those on the left side of the political spectrum for its tough immigration laws, particuarly against muslims. Our government has no 'guts' the way I see it and our prime minister is just a George Bush cronie when it comes to our part in the 'war on terror'.

I have no time for christian or muslim fundamentalists themselves, i hate it when i hear some idiot on our talk radio that rings up and says 'these muslims should take their stupid religion back to Arabia and then say australia is a 'good christian nation'. I'd rather Australia be 'secular' as it is up to individuals as to whether they want to have religion, spirituality in their lives. If they want niether that doesn't mean they aren't Australian.

This is why I'm glad that I am not religious but a spiritual person. I keep my own spiritual beliefs and practices mostly to myself
I am not a member of any organisation that is being used to justify a war or anything political.

Recently a political party in Australia was formed called 'Family First'. It is the only christian party i can think of but they say they are secular. I suppose they are not that bad though as they oppose the war on Iraq but in other ways they are annoying and I certainly wouldn't vote for them ever.

So I suppose we've got a way to go before we're that 'far down the pike'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_First

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Well spotted Chum .. maybe it's the Sun?

*

Aw Never Say Die, just because South Africa is way way better cricket players then Australia  ::) augoeideian runs away quickly, ducks and hides!!

augoeideian wrote on Feb 1^st, 2007 at 9:41am:

2 Peter 3:10 Aw Never Say Die, just because South Africa is way way better cricket players then Australia  ::) augoeideian runs away quickly, ducks and hides!!

;D Yes Australia's claim to fame is being the best cricket team, one of the best rugby teams and good at swimming among other sporting pursuits. I like my sport, I was a pretty good soccer player back in high school  :P.

Without imy sport and entertainment there would be nothing on the news but 'war on terror' this 'climate change' this and 'immigration debate' that.

You right there NSD .. erm .. cough  .. except the part about the cricket team!!  ;)

GO BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, just so excited for my team this Sunday, DaBears

augoeideian wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2007 at 9:34am:

You right there NSD .. erm .. cough  .. except the part about the cricket team!!  ;)

We'll be World Champions for the third time in a row in a couple of months. I had a psychic vision to prove this.








Nah just kidding  :D

lol Sport is great!  There's nothing wrong with positive thinking either  :D  It's the Pro20 series here and we gave Pakistan a hiding!  Mind you they played very well.  I think we play New Zealand next ...

How did the Bears do on Sunday James? is that American football?