Don, I know you're a Christian, but I also know(?) that you disclaim the "TURN OR BURN!!!" stripe of Christianity. With that in
mind, here goes...
First of all, I will state that I am as big a skeptic as you are about
the veracity of "after-death communications."
But HERE is what I want you to tell me...
You ascribe these communications (assuming they are not purely
a delusion, as my materialist leanings would lead me to believe)
to... DEMONS. (And "Satan" too, I assume?
WAIT A MINUTE HERE, DON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is Christian fundo-moronic, J.D. HOWES thinking, Don.
(Remember that doofus???)
Are you saying then, that there is an army of evil spirit beings,
led by "Satan", who have nothing better to do than deceive
humans away from accepting "Jesus" as their "personal
savior", then?
Do you believe, then, that "God's" favorite angel tried to make war
on "God" (remember, this "Satan" is supposed to be a million times wiser (and smarter) than the wisest human, yet he thought he could take on and defeat an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-present enemy like "God"? (Give me a break! That would make Satan a mega-chump. How could he be smarter than humans, then..?)
What you are espousing is the classic Arminian, "turn or burn" scenario here, Don. You are saying that St. Paul and his "substitutionary atonement by Jesus" doctrine is valid (gee, why wasn't Paul's future coming prophesied in the Old Testament? Every other biblical bigwig was!) You are saying that to avoid torture, we have to attempt to check our brains at the church door, and TRY REALLY, REALLY HARD to batter our credibility limits into submission, and believe that a child could be conceived without a father and borne by a virgin (HaHaHa!), and that he rose 3 days after his death, like something out of "Dawn of the Dead." And take this all as the capital-W "Word" of a deity who seems to do a REALLY GOOD JOB of making it look like he doesn't exist, to the extent of faking a convincing fossil record CHOCK-FULL of transitional fossils suggestive of blind Darwinian evolution.. and creating parasitic worms... and allowing a couple thousand OTHER religions to flourish, each as vehement about being "The One Truth" as Christianity is...
All this silly "There's a War between "God" and "Satan" and you'd better choose the right side 'cause there's NO NEUTRALITY, Golly Gee Gum!!!" idiocy I mentioned above, is part and parcel of believing in a spirit world full of "demons" bent on deceiving bereaved humans by impersonating their dead loved ones, Don. Why else would the "demons" do this, unless it is possible to be TRICKED into eternal hell-fire and damnation (one of the most odious, barbaric notions ever conceived, as your "God" would have CREATED this "Hell" and therefore deserves nothing but our CONTEMPT! To argue otherwise, pegs you as a groveling, cowardly worm who DESERVES damnation... does it not? After all, "Turn or Burn!" IS a cowardly little worm's philosophy. It caters to the groveling lowlife in us, to our FEAR... the LOWEST of emotions..!)
So... IS this what you believe, Don???

B-man

Hi Matthew Im  so sorry but i deleted what i had wrote and for some reason its deleted yours as well .sorry about that.I dont know why thats happened.

Love and God bless Love juditha

Their is a satan their always has been and he does have demon followers ,satan tries to turn people against god because he wants to win the war of good and evil ,he is the one who causes death and destruction all over the earth ,he is the one who causes human suffering ,when things dont go right in your life that is satans doing ,god is our saviour ,god is our salvation ,god is good without god in our lives we would be lost ,i shall always follow my lord no matter what love deanna

Hi Chumley  There are demon spirits ,but not in the afterlife,thats why there is exorcisim,and i do beleive that God threw Satan to the earth,because Satan tried to challenge God and lost the fight,if Satan had not done this ,why is there so many people writing about Satan over the years,there must have been something in it somewhere.

Its on the earth plain where all the misery is hate war violence pain,so called people that say they beleive in God and dont even bother to love and forgive there fellow man,these people are number one hypocrites.

Then there are people what do love and forgive,well at least try and love and forgive,but as i have said hypocrites are the worst kind of people on this earth plain,wolves in sheeps clothing.

I beleive that mary conceived a child from God ,who grew up to save our sins and teach us about the love and forgiveness of our father God,and you was not there at the time chumley ,so you cant say it did not happen,you have no proof and neither do i really ,but i beleive what i beleive and you beleive what you beleive.

Satan is just another word for evil and gods love will always reign over that,so evil does not win,neither does Satan.

Love and God bless      Love Juditha

I believe that this guy Satan is a bunch of bull, as are Demonic Entities.  The character of Satan was created by the Christian Church, and he was based off characters of ancient religions for the same reason, to be the enemy of the "son of god", and to cause people to be god AND satan fearing, with promises of being torchered by this big red dude for not believing in what the religion says.  Of course, this is all fictional.  I dont believe there are demons.  What these entities that seem to cause trouble are, are simply beings who are not familiar with human life and human customs.  Its similar to Borat, who by American standards, is very very rude, but he is excused for his actions and comments because they appear to be aware of the vast cultural difference that is present between his country and ours.  Perhaps these are beings from another planet, or another dimension, beings who have never experienced a life on earth or an earth type planet.  It is obvious that a being who is completely unfamiliar with human customs will be clueless as to how to treat us and behave.  I just think that believing in the satan and demon thing is fools play, nothing is a demon until you put that belief in your head.  

I'm not sure if Don is going to answer this question, Brendan.  I think he is still upset at his last clash with Dude and the "New Agers" here.  This is a pity because, no matter what he says, I think this forum is probably the best place to express his research and views.  I have one or two new threads that I am working on myself, and it would be great to have his input along with everyone else.  

I can only hope that his quest for knowledge will overcome the little barbs that flew back and forth like so many bee stings - that I laughed off.  

I would venture to say though, that your myopic view of armies of Satan vs. armies of angels/God is way off from what he has stated on the board.  Don did discuss Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil," and his belief in the demonic.  True.  But to extrapolate that into your other assertions does not go along with his posts as I read them.    

Many who concentrate on the nature of consciousness believe that some people who feel unworthy after life make themselves into demons, feeling that they can not face God for the way they led their lives.  Dave-MBS has recounted personal experiences where such discarnate souls were shown that they still have a spark of God within them, and encouraged to leave their hellish ideas and go back toward God.  

Are there beings who were never human and only have ill intent for man?  I don't know personally.  

Don posted questions about whether mediums were channeling real deceased people or demonic imposters pretending to give the right information by telepathy, etc.  These were questions - he did not appear to state it as a fact that ALL spiritual communication was from the demonic.  

I hope Don answers your questions/rant himself.  But to me Chum, it all comes back to your having a very anthropomorphic and limited understanding of God as a white haired Zeus-like man on a throne with a long flowing beard.  You say it would be his fault if there are demons in the world anyway.  Haven't you figured out yet that God is bigger than that?  That all consciousness consists of a part of God's essence?  That to portray him as a Superman type character is to diminish God and the universe (and your part in the divine scheme of things)?

M-man

I disagree outofbodydude satan does exist unfortunatley why else is our planet ravaged with so much evil think about it  love deanna

The evil comes within ourself, not from some outside force "satan". That is like taking the easy way out, blaming all your problems on someone else.  We need to take responsibility for our lives and take action to change, as long as you believe "satan" is doing everything that is bad in the world, then noone will ever try to change within themselves because they will believe they have no control over it.  WE DO HAVE CONTROL OVER IT.  But we have lost touch with this truth.  This sick culture and world we live in has taken control over us all, some much more than others.  We get caught up in all the unimportant nonesnese, people become greedy and evil, and do stupid things which hurt so many others and only beneifit themselves. That is why we have wars.  That is why we have killings. That is why we have our own government demolishing important buildings and killing thousands of U.S. citizens.  ITS NOT SATAN!!! satan is fiction!!! do some research and you will discover that is a fact.  This myth was probably created so people wouldnt look outside the "bible" box, so people wouldnt ask questions, and instead just go along with the motions.  So that all this horror could occur and we would just say... oh , it must be satan... lets not do anything about it, all we can do is pray!  B.S.!!!!!!! Its time to wake up.

hi outofbodydude ,when i and my sister were little girls we shared a bedroom and one night we saw something and it definitley was not of this world it looked like a demon and it frifghtened us very bad and we have never forgot it , so can you explain what that was ,that is why i  and my sister believe in demons and satan and evil because we have seen it  ,i respect your beliefs you are entitled to your own  beleifs as are my sister and i  love and god bless deanna

Im sorry, I cannot tell you what it was that you saw.  I think that because of your young minds, and the rediculous beliefs people have, you labeled whatever you saw as a "demon".  I am sure most people would have thought the same thing.  You could have been correct to assume the being was manevolent, or you could have been totally wrong and just confused by the way it looked.  I do believe that there may be evil spirits or beings.  However, the evil that they possess comes from within themselves, not some evil big red dude with little evil demon cronies.  Once you understand the history of the bible story and the characters in it, you will understand why there is no satan.

I totally agree, everyone has their own beliefs and are 100% entitled to them.  And I totally have no problem with people holding their own beliefs if they benifit from them and pose as a good influence in their life.  However, nothing good could ever come from believing in satan.  Believing in jesus is one thing, the thought of him may bring comfort and love to people who need it, nevermind if he is real or myth.  But the only thing believing in satan can do is bring fear into ones life and conseal where the true evil lies in this world, making it very hard to bring change to the evil, and in turn causing even more evil.  Especially when the facts are there for us to see in plain sight that the myth of Satan in Christianity is stolen from a mirror image myth from ancient religions and totally fictional.  Feel free to research it, I found the proof effortlessly.

I jumping in here.
Here is what I believe. That suffering was a created thing. For some purpose that I know not of for sure. But I also believe that it was not meant for all mankind to suffer the way that they do. I believe there was a type of satan that took advantage of a creator and what he had learned from him. He possibly was punished once before.
And he will probably will be again. The thing I don't know about is if this Satan figure was able to do any creating himself, if so then I would imagine the beings which he made would stay with him, since he made them.
But how I would love to universally end suffering.

I'm not sure if Don is going to answer this question, Brendan.  I think he is still upset at his last clash with Dude and the "New Agers" here.  This is a pity because, no matter what he says, I think this forum is probably the best place to express his research and views.  I have one or two new threads that I am working on myself, and it would be great to have his input along with everyone else.  

I can only hope that his quest for knowledge will overcome the little barbs that flew back and forth like so many bee stings - that I laughed off.  

I would venture to say though, that your myopic view of armies of Satan vs. armies of angels/God is way off from what he has stated on the board.  Don did discuss Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil," and his belief in the demonic.  True.  But to extrapolate that into your other assertions does not go along with his posts as I read them.    

Many who concentrate on the nature of consciousness believe that some people who feel unworthy after life make themselves into demons, feeling that they can not face God for the way they led their lives.  Dave-MBS has recounted personal experiences where such discarnate souls were shown that they still have a spark of God within them, and encouraged to leave their hellish ideas and go back toward God.  

Are there beings who were never human and only have ill intent for man?  I don't know personally.  

Don posted questions about whether mediums were channeling real deceased people or demonic imposters pretending to give the right information by telepathy, etc.  These were questions - he did not appear to state it as a fact that ALL spiritual communication was from the demonic.  

I hope Don answers your questions/rant himself.  But to me Chum, it all comes back to your having a very anthropomorphic and limited understanding of God as a white haired Zeus-like man on a throne with a long flowing beard.  You say it would be his fault if there are demons in the world anyway.  Haven't you figured out yet that God is bigger than that?  That all consciousness consists of a part of God's essence?  That to portray him as a Superman type character is to diminish God and the universe (and your part in the divine scheme of things)?

M-man
****************
So, Doc... you mean to say, that ol' Don can't handle a
bit of his own medicine?
He comes on here and basically tells the "New Agers" that
they are full of baloney. (What is a "New Ager" anyway? Their
ideas are of no more recent vintage than those of most
American Christians, whose theology dates back to the 1920's
with Billy Sunday, Aimee Semple MacPherson and so forth.) And
the whole "demonic influence" stuff is closely related to Roman
Catholic theology (The Roman Catholic Church being nothing
more than, and nothing less than, the world's oldest money-
making corporation..!)
Don's inability to handle the barbs (i.e., take a punch after
he has dished one out) is reminiscent of the behavior of a
schoolyard bully. Ever notice how a schoolyard bully just loves
to swagger and throw his weight around...
Until someone gives him a bloody nose. THEN watch him run
blubbering to the teacher..!
Now me, I know that I just MIGHT be full of fertilizer, so to
speak. But I ACCEPT this. I also LOVE a good argument, just
like Mike Tyson loves a good brawl...
(Maybe I should have been a lawyer..?)
The "bully" behavior I mentioned is SO typical of Abrahamic religionists, Doc. When
their limited powers of persuasion fail them, either they cop out,
or resort to fear tactics...
OR they get violent. (Look at history.)
But they NEVER admit that the other side might be right, do they?
They will go to the ends of the earth to dig up "evidence" to try and
make their case (and end up looking silly in the process) but in the
end, it's "my way or the highway" with them.
And they are ALWAYS arguing from a top-down, hierarchical, from-the-elite-down-to-the-goobers viewpoint. "A place for every man, and every man in his place... and YOURS is at the bottom, boy."
Perhaps this is why I'm not a Christian, nor indeed a member of any other hierarchic, top-down, absolutist faith. I wouldn't fit in... either in their churches, OR in their "Heaven"..!

B-pariah

P.S. The idea of beings which were "never human and have only ill
intentions for mankind says two things, Doc...
-#1. The afterlife must be a really lame, "get-a-life" sort of place,
if said beings have nothing better to do than to #^%$ around with
humans. (I've stated this previously.) If "demons" exist then, I have one more reason (at least indirectly!) to seek annihilation, do I
not???
-#2. Most humans sure have a bloated sense of their own self-worth, they must think ourselves to be the very center of Creation itself! To
think, that "demons" find messing with US, to be their "raisons de etre." Apparently, beings who were never human, must find us WAY more important, than humans (at least humans like myself!) find THEM...

Think about it!!!

Cheers...

Hi Last time i told the devil he would not win against God,i was attacked by something evil the same night i said it,and even though it probably wasnt Satan it was one of his demons listening to me from the lower region,as i was really and truly put through it,and these evil entitys would not let me wake up or move,and God was protecting me all the way through this experience.

Through this really bad attack,my spirit came out of my body,and whatever was listening to me that night,was more a less telling me that there are evil entitys and since this has happened to me ,i beleive even more now there are demons out there.

This made me feel uneasy for weeks after,it really put the fear in me,but now ive gotton over it,but i feel careful now of what i do say,because now i know something is listening.

These demons proved to me that there out there ,but i called on God and after this fight i won,with Gods love and protection,i am a practising medium but this really scared me.

Love and God Bless     love juditha

I believe these experiences happen to you because you open yourself up to them by believing them as a possibility.  I can garuntee that if you were to wipe out your beliefs of Satan and Demons then these experiences would not happen to you.  I bet that if when you and your sister were young, and instead of believing that what you saw was a demon, you beleived it was just a strange looking being that meant no harm, the chain reaction would not have begun which brought you to this place in which you beleive Satan is working to conquer your soul and you are having these attacks.  If you would just come to terms with the fact that satan is a fictional being, you would probably be able to anaylse your past situations in a new light and could bring about change in yourself which would end these attacks forever.  You may say that he is not fiction because you have been victim to his attacks, but the reality is that he is as fictional as freddy kruger.  There are many sources you can learn this from, and I would recommend doing so.  Once you see this, like I said before, you would be able to see these experiences for what they really were.  Most likely manifestations of your fear.

Hi outofbodydude One of the things that happened that night i was awake to start with,but i did have this feeling of uneasiness and i was sitting in bed and all of a sudden i saw these three small black hooded figures run around the side of my bed,so i said the prayer of protection and then i closed my eyes to sleep still sitting up,and straight away something put there arm around my shoulders and it was really heavy and my spirit came away from my body about an inch above my body and thats when i was attacked and try as i did i could not no way open my eyes until it was over.It was my first experience of out of body but not a nice experience for the first time.

Love and God bless  love juditha

I believe that each of us has the freedom to use our creative energy in any way we want.

I also believe each of us is in search of the love, happiness and peace that is natural to who we really are.

When we look for love, happiness and peace outside instead of inside and circumstances don't play out in the manner we believe they ought to play out, we become angry. Some people become so angry that they take on negative and hateful personalities.  When they die, until they come to the point where they are able/willing to acknowledge their mistake, they continue to exist as spirits that have negative minds.

An angry and hateful spirit is an angry and hateful spirit, regardless of its origin. It doesn't become more powerful simply because it has a non human origin.  Any spirit that God creates has the same creative potential. It is a matter of how a spirit makes use of this potential.  

Some of these spirits refuse to cross over, and because of their meaness try to create problems for others. I don't believe that God has set things up so that they can force themselves on another and overcome their will. A negative minded spirit seperates itself from God and love, and therefore seperates itself from the source of all power. A person who lives according to love on the other hand connects his or herself to God's will, the source of all power. Therefore a person who lives according to God and love is going to be more powerful than a being who doesn't.  To suggest differently is to suggest that a deluded, confused, negative minded being is more powerful than God, even though such a being owes its existence to God.

Here's another way to look at it. If a negative minded being was somehow able to take over a loving person's mind, it would become incredibly disoriented, because it wouldn't know how to make use of the various thoughts, beliefs, personality aspects and feelings of the mind it took over. After all, such a being doesn't even know how to control its own mind.

When it comes to people who are effected by a negative being, there is probably a very good reason for which they are effected. Perhaps they have negative tendencies of mind, either conscious or unconscious,  that a negative minded being can make use of.

Or.....

A person believes that evil spirits exist that are more powerful than he or she, and this belief is all a negative minded being needs in order to gain an advantage. A person's lack of faith in his or her own spiritual power, is the belief that causes them to capitulate and allow a negative minded being to take over.

I bet you that the negative minded beings who do exist love it when people share their stories of powerful demons. It is the very thing they need to get people to have a lack of faith in their own power. They need to find a way to get people to give their power away.

One of the ways in which they'll go about doing so is by making themselves appear with a really creepy image.  Imagery has the ability to cause our minds to create all kinds of feelings. If a negative minded spirit creates an image that causes a person to experience fear, the fear that a person feels might lead them to conclude that they are in contact with something that is very powerful. This is what fear does. It causes us to believe that we're weak, and whatever we are contact with is powerful. It doesn't matter what the other thing is. It is our own fear, usually based on false concepts, that causes us to believe that something has the power to do us harm.

If a person wants to claim that satan causes people to become evil, then why is that some people are effected by him, while others aren't? Where does the initial evil come from that causes a person to allow his or herself to be effected by satan, if satan had yet to come to the point where he initially effected he or she?  The only way in which he could do so is if a person had some evil in them to begin with. If this were the case, then where is the need of satan? A person already has the negativity within his or herself that enabled he or she to either go in the direction of darkness, or the direction of love.  This is why a person can experience feelings of horror while watching a movie such as the Exorcist. Not because negative energy travels from the movie screen into a person. Rather because the movie stimulates a person's creative energy to start creating negative feelings.

But I guess it's easier to blame negativity on outside forces, rather than taking self responsibility. If you don't want to be effected by negative spirits, then don't give them anything to mess with. They love (not in a divine way) things such as hate, anger, and fear.

Hi Recoverer That night that happened to me ,i was not feeling any negativity at all,so i cannot understand why that happened to me,and why did my spirit come away from my body,and i had never had an out of body before that night.and whatever had there arm around my shoulders was full of strengh,it was just like being held by something physical not spiritual.

Love and God bless   Love Juditha

Juditha:

First of all, I don't know why exactly, but spirit beings can cause physical sensations. For example, I've had friendly spirits work on my energy body. When they've touched me it has felt like a pair of hands touching me. For whatever reason, even though they can walk through walls, they can interact with physical objects. Perhaps it is just a matter of a spirit lowering the vibrational rate of a part of itself so that part has enough density to interact with the part of the physical World they are interacting with.

I agree that there are negative minded spirits who want to influence people in a bad way, and have negative thoughts about their confused concept of God. But they are nothing compared to God. I bet you Jesus wouldn't be scarred by one. I also bet that other beings of love and light wouldn't be scarred by one.  I believe that your guide Teressa tried to tell you to not be afraid of them when you ran accross one during a spirit circle.

The thing I don't like about the whole satan business is that such a way of thinking causes people to view negative minded spirits as being more powerful than they are. How can a person stand up to something if they don't believe they are strong enough to do so? If you connect your will to the will of God, what can they do?




wrote on Jan 4^th, 2007 at 5:14pm:

Hi Recoverer That night that happened to me ,i was not feeling any negativity at all,so i cannot understand why that happened to me,and why did my spirit come away from my body,and i had never had an out of body before that night.and whatever had there arm around my shoulders was full of strengh,it was just like being held by something physical not spiritual. Love and God bless   Love Juditha

Hi Recoverer I understand what you are saying about the thing of Satan and also because of a lot of the misery and hatred and pain,a lot of people are looking for someone to blame it on,so they say its down to Satan to give a reason for it because they cant find any other reason.

Theres so much going on around the world,so many religions,so many different beleifs,that just to find a little bit of love in the world seems to make up for it all.

Thanks for explaining about the reason i  felt physically held that night,but i always ask god to leave his blessing on me and surround me with his love and i have not had this again so far,but i will just tell any negative entity from now on to go to the light of God.

I was scared when my spirit came out of my body at first but afterwards it was just proof to me yet again,that we survive death,even though i should know this anyway being a medium.

Love and God bless      Love Juditha

Chumley,  for years I have posted and celebrated on this board the inspirational ADCs that I and my acquaintances have experienced.   Recently, one of these has even been published in a book.  The author read my posts and contacted me by PM for perimission to publish.   So do you really imagine I consider these supreme manifestations of love to be demonic?  

I now realize that Dude’s continued use of vulgar and mindless put-downs ("bull," "retard," "barf," etc.) is well-suilted to the low density of this site’s level of cosciousness and the double standard continually displayed by this site’s New Age groupies.   Yet as long as I am allowed to post, I will not tolerate the gross insensitivity to the faith of dear souls like Deanna and Juditha. The deafening silence of the culturally unwashed New Age herd suggests they are privately  giggling at this relentless assault.   Dude’s challenge to Deanna is amusingly ironic:  “Satan is fiction!!!  “Do some research and you will discover that is a fact.”.  Here Dude projects his own fatal flaw onto the twins--his terror of exploring the dreaded other side of the question.   So I must once again rub Dude’s snotty nose in my old challenge before which the gropuies here always freeze like a fawn in the headlights:  read Malachi Martin’s magesterial case histories in “Hostage to the Devil.”   Read his account of how an overconfident athletic priest is struck dead by an unseen hand the moment he arrives at the demoniac’s bedside!  That priest had evidently grown overconfident from a prior success in another exorcism.  I know of no skeptic on this site or anywhere who has read that book without being convinced!

Dude tries to compensate for his intellectual myopia by measuring truth in dogmatic decibels.  Thus, he reassures the twins: “I can GUARANTEE you that if you were to wipe out your beliefs of Satan and Demons, then these experiences would not happen to you.”  Wow, a guarantee!  But then Dude hasn’t researeched the possession cases of young children from whose minds nothing is further removed than the concept of Satan.  I have posted the acocunt of my cousin's battle against an attempted posession as a two-year-old with no concept of Satan.  His eyes rolled up in deep trance in the car at the precise moment the demon was expelled inside the nearby house.  Only the fervent prayers of my uncle (the exorcist) and my aunt prevented the possession from taking hold.  My cousin screamed in terror for a long time until his release was ultimately secured.  He is now a pyschiatrist.  When Jesus peformed his exorcisms, demonic possession was unknown in the Ancient Near East.

Don

Well said don and thankyou for standing up for me and juditha ,you sure put that old dude in his place ,he does think he knows it all but he knows nothing love u don god bless deanna

Hi Don Thankyou for what you have told outofbodydude and we agree with you that Satan and the Demons do exist .

Love and God bless you Don    love Juditha and Deanna

Chumley,  for years I have posted and celebrated on this board the inspirational ADCs that I and my acquaintances have experienced.   Recently, one of these has even been published in a book.  The author read my posts and contacted me by PM for perimission to publish.   So do you really imagine I consider these supreme manifestations of love to be demonic?  

I now realize that Dude’s continued use of vulgar and mindless put-downs ("bull," "retard," "barf," etc.) is well-suilted to the low density of this site’s level of cosciousness and the double standard continually displayed by this site’s New Age groupies.   Yet as long as I am allowed to post, I will not tolerate the gross insensitivity to the faith of dear souls like Deanna and Juditha. The deafening silence of the culturally unwashed New Age herd suggests they are privately  giggling at this relentless assault.   Dude’s challenge to Deanna is amusingly ironic:  “Satan is fiction!!!  “Do some research and you will discover that is a fact.”.  Here Dude projects his own fatal flaw onto the twins--his terror of exploring the dreaded other side of the question.   So I must once again rub Dude’s snotty nose in my old challenged before which the gropuies here always freeze like a fawn in the headlights:  read Malachi Martin’s magesterial case histories in “Hostage to the Devil.”   Read his account of how an overconfident athletic priest is struck dead by an unseen hand the moment he arrives at the demoniac’s bedside!  That priest had evidently grown overconfident from a prior success in another exorcism.  I know of no skeptic on this site or anywhere who has read that book without being convinced!

Dude tries to compensate for his intellectual myopia by measuring truth in dogmatic decibels.  Thus, he reassures the twins: “I can GUARANTEE you that if you were to wipe out your beliefs of Satan and Demons, then these experiences would not happen to you.”  Wow, a guarantee!  But then Dude hasn’t researeched the possession cases of young children from whose minds nothing is further removed than the concept of Satan.  I have posted the acocunt of my cousin's battle against an attempted posession as a two-year-old with no concept of Satan.  His eyes rolled up in deep trance in the car at the precise moment the demon was expelled inside the nearby house.  Only the fervent prayers of my uncle (the exorcist) and my aunt prevented the possession from taking hold.  My cousin screamed in terror for a long time until his release was ultimately secured.  He is now a pyschiatrist.  When Jesus peformed his exorcisms, demonic possession was unknown in the Ancient Near East.

Don
******************
You didn't answer ONE of my questions, Don.
But while we're at it, answer me THIS one please...
Why do I owe Yahweh ANYTHING? Especially WORSHIP?
I didn't ask to be created into "His" s***hole of a universe
you know. (If traditional Christianity is true, that's what the
universe IS, after all... a foul, disgusting sewer of a creation,
created by a vicious, bullying, narcissistic... GOON.)
(This is assuming that Pauline Christianity is true.)
Why do I deserve to be tortured, for rejecting "Him"?
After all, "Yahweh" could have simply refrained from
creating me to live in his vile, disgusting "Creation."
He KNEW I'd hate the very idea of "Him"... but "He"
went ahead and caused me to be shat out into "His"
sick little universe, 38 years ago.
WHY would "Yahweh" do this? And what moral authority
does "He" have, except military might (all-powerful and
so forth.) So he can squish me like a bug? (Ooooo-ooh.) Might
makes right then, say you???
What kind of LOWLIFE, would worship a BULLY (which is
what the Christian god is, after all...)

B-man

Brendan,

Christianity teaches that God created you for your unique potential for progression in PUL (Pure Unoconditional Love).  Worship is just another word for refueling on PUL from its Source.  God also created you with the freedom to defy that purpose and reap the consequences of a godlree zone of selfish unloving existence.   You get to be on a spirit plane with bitter, self-serving souls just like yourself.  Like attracts like.  If this plane is hellish, it is because you will be unable to conceal your thoughts and bitter contempt from others just as bitter and contemptous as yourself.  In short, that hellish plane will be a voyage of self-discovery, not a torture chamber created by a sadistic God.  You will simply get to experience the Hell you'd create if you were treated the way you treat others.  

But that is not what really terrifies you the most.  You will also sense the bliss and creative opportunities you forfeited by your choices.  You will be haunted by the joyful road less treveled that your ego made you ignore.  Rather than explore the blissful path you've always ignored, you will get to be "right" about divine sadism by insisting on creating God in this ghastly image.   You will be in a spirit plane with tragic souls just as stubborn and bitter as you are.  Finally, rather than accept offers of soul retrieval, you will choose annihilation and God will respect your choice to experience Him as a saidist rather than as the Fount of Unimaginable Love.  In the final analysis, you will get to be "right" and to have your consciousness annihilated and recycled into a more promising soul.....

Or you can actually read a good book on survival and open your heart to the possibility of experiencing new pleasures as the horizons of your consciousness expand.  What do you have to lose by reading one bleeping book?  

Don  

I agree that there are evil spirits out there, and if you want to label them as demons, then thats fine.  I am also well aware of the fact that there have been possessions in history.  However, an evil entity messing with a human being in no way proves that Satan is real.  As we all know, evil comes from within us, evil spirits become evil not because "satan" has them under his control, but because they chose to be evil.  And the character of satan was in fact crafted after an older character of an ancient religion, I believe his name was Seth?  You guys can believe in satan if you want, I just think it is a waiste of time, love, and positive energy.  

Berserk, it is obvious that anything I say is going to be warped in your mind by the fact that you thought I was attacking you in the past posts about your boy Swedenberserk, when I was simply presenting an opposing side of a debate.  But that is fine.  I have no bad energy or feelings towards you, but if you feel the need to direct negative energy at me then do as you want.  It is just ashame that you feel the need to call me out, when it does not affect me in the least and most likely lowers your own positive vibrations.  I may have had some negative opinions regarding the belief of Satan, but if you could take away the filter that only allows you to view my posts as negative, you would see that there was love behind my writings, as there is in everything I write.  But hey, if you want to engage in such nonsense as believing in a big red evil dude living in the depths of hell who is out to make you and others suffer, be my guest.  It is only because I care that I am trying to convince you all otherwise, for having such a silly belief as that only brings about negative vibes and does noone justice, especially yourself.

Dude, the Bible does not even idenitfy "Satan" as "Lucifer."   The word "Satan" merely means "adversary" in Hebrew.  If the God of love gives adversaries the freedom to oppose "Him," then by definition there is the etherial equivalent of spiritual warfare. And just who are these adversaries?   Once we concede that there is alien life both in our universe and in spiritual planes, this opens the door to the possibility that non-human evil entities exist.   You overlook my constant insistence on shifting the focus from the origin of these entities to their potential to do harm.  To grasp that, you need to read a standard book with an opposing viewpoint.  I read dozens of New Age books.  Why won't you read one challenging book, Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil?"   If you read and discuss it, yoiu will go a long way towards convincing me that you are more than a vulger New Ager who uses insults to compensate for his lack of intellectual rigor and illiteracy in the fields on which you pontificate.  Read him and my tone towards you will totallly change.   ....With one excpetion--stop insulting the twins!  They are reall sweeties!  As for me, when I am blunt, I expect blunt retorts, but you'd better know what you're talking about.

Don

Brendan,

Christianity teaches that God created you for your unique potential for progression in PUL (Pure Unoconditional Love).  Worship is just another word for refueling on PUL from its Source.  God also created you with the freedom to defy that purpose and reap the consequences of a godlree zone of selfish unloving existence.   You get to be on a spirit plane with bitter, self-serving souls just like yourself.  Like attracts like.  If this plane is hellish, it is because you will be unable to conceal your thoughts and bitter contempt from others just as bitter and contemptous as yourself.  In short, that hellish plane will be a voyage of self-discovery, not a torture chamber created by a sadistic God.  You will simply get to experience the Hell you'd create if you were treated the way you treat others.  

But that is not what really terrifies you the most.  You will also sense the bliss and creative opportunities you forfeited by your choices.  You will be haunted by the joyful road less treveled that your ego made you ignore.  Rather than explore the blissful path you've always ignored, you will get to be "right" about divine sadism by insisting on creating God in this ghastly image.   You will be in a spirit plane with tragic souls just as stubborn and bitter as you are.  Finally, rather than accept offers of soul retrieval, you will choose annihilation and God will respect your choice to experience Him as a saidist rather than as the Fount of Unimaginable Love.  In the final analysis, you will get to be "right" and to have your consciousness annihilated and recycled into a more promising soul.....

Or you can actually read a good book on survival and open your heart to the possibility of experiencing new pleasures as the horizons of your consciousness expand.  What do you have to lose by reading one bleeping book?  

Don  
*****************
Last March, I went to church (first time in about 25 years, excepting
a couple of funerals.)
It was emotional blackmail by someone who I won't mention. It was
a church supper at a local Jesus-outlet.
So I went, limp-noodle that I am.
The food wasn't great, but it wasn't bad either. But it wasn't long before
every fiber of my being was SCREAMING to get out of there. The people there... I don't put much stock in "psychic vibes" or what have you. But that crowd felt SO FOREIGN to me, I wanted to get out...
Now about that "bliss" ("Heaven") I'll be rejecting on the other side, if you are right..?
Everything I LOVE in this life (technology, time that's NOBODY'S but mine, privacy, blackjack, business study, beer, babes, guns, hunting, yadda yadda) will be absent. Everything I DON'T LIKE (i.e. mindless ducktalk chatting with un-philosophical blockheads, unpaid WORK, group singing ect.) will be PRESENT. It would be like being sentenced to live among the AMISH for the rest of eternity. (Not my cup of poison.)
I will have no more desire to participate in it, than I would want to attend this year's local pig farmer's smoker. NOT my kind of people, you see!
So given the choice between annihilation and an eternal church meeting, what's wrong with my choice?
Why is it worse than yours???

B-infidel

You must be crazy... I never insulted them, or anyone else.  Show me what you think I said that was an insult towards them, and Ill clear things up for you.  The facts that lucifer does not exist are so obvious that reading a book claiming he does exist is the equivallent to reading a book claiming that jesus is real.  Ooo bad example for christians... ok, its the equivalent to reading a book about the easter bunny.

Of course I realise that there are entities out there that can do harm.  What I am saying is there is not a Clifford-the-big-red-dog-looking devil man named lucifer who is the mastermind of these negative entities and their actions.  Lets get our heads out of the bible and into reality.

I Am Dude wrote on Jan 5^th, 2007 at 8:25pm:

As we all know, evil comes from within us, evil spirits become evil not because "satan" has them under his control, but because they chose to be evil.

Dude,

You are an amazing explorer. However, I must take issue with this statement. No one "chooses" to be "evil" in my opinion.

I completely agree that evil comes from within us, but do we choose it? We are human, despite our efforts to rise above our competitive natures, and we are almost helpless before the single-minded vision which comes from the individual viewpoint created within us by our experiences.  

But it is when we truly open our minds to others that we see what they are offering us.  Don is an incredibly caring soul.
And so are you.

love, blink

In my opinion, of course we choose the path of evil, if that is the path we in fact find ourselves on.  Everything we do, say, feel, although they may be conditioned by past experiences and prejudices, are ultimately us expressing free will.  We choose our actions, and therefore also choose the consequences for those actions(or inactions).  Whether or not we are conscious of that choice is irrelevant, for we may choose an evil path while thinking it is the path to righteousness.  A psychopathic serial killer may think he is doing good by killing everyone, when in reality he is choosing to be evil.  Even though someone thinks they are doing the right thing by getting back at someone for doing wrong to them in the past, it is still them choosing to express the opposite of love, if you consider hate and evil the opposite of love... I personally think there is no opposite of love, only the lack of love.  All other emotions are pure illusion.  However, I think we must accept our lives, whether we are loving or evil, because only then can we make appropriate changes to get back on the path of love.  If you choose to believe we are not in controll of this, then you are saying somthing else has control, and therefore nothing can be done about it.

[Dude:]: "You must be crazy."  
_________________________
I love it.  You use an insult to deny that you are ever insulting!  Kinda like Muslims enraged by the charge that Islam is a violent faith.   Not only is this unfair to the Koran, they warn, but they'll kill you if you disagree!

[Dude: ] ."The facts that lucifer does not exist are so obvious that reading a book claiming he does exist is the equivallent to reading a book claiming that jesus is real.... its the equivalent to reading a book about the easter bunny."
______________________________________________________________

More ridicule to compensate for your incarceration in the New Age ghetto.  So a historical illiterate like you compares belief that Jesus is real with belief in the Easter bunny.  Duh, make your case and I'll respond.  So far all I get from you is mindless bluster unseasoned by any modicum of rigor and documentation.  

Reading comprehension is clearly one of your deficiencies.  I just informed you that Lucifer is not a biblical term for Satan.  Yet you mischaracterize my request that you read Malachi Martin as a way to defnnd Lucifier's existence.  Again, yoiu prejudge and ridicule what threatens your New Age perspective. Malachi Martin provides real case studies, not pious cliches.   Just read him and try to show that you have some grasp of the nature of logical inference.  I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about and reading Martin will give you a chance to make me retract my claim on the issue of Satan.  

Don

Any of you remember that old kid's game, "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" ?

Two different colored plastic identical looking ( the same mold ) robots that two Players use to beat each other up so eventually one of their heads would extend upwards, making the other player the winner! Yippeee!  (I loved that game... when I was a kid)

I dunno, just got that image in my brain for a moment.

  Haven't read this whole thread, but just wanted to add my 3 cents in.  

 I use to believe much as Recoverer seems to believe (from my interpretation of what he wrote), that we all have the same innate potential, that we were all created equally in that sense.

 While i do believe that we are all part of each other, my views on creation have changed a bit here and there.  

 When i read Bruce's 4th book, i was surprised to find a vision of creation very similar to the one i had formulated over the years of going within, synthesizing various parts of different sources which felt "right", etc.  

  Basically i agree with Bruce, that Source was somewhat experimenting in the "beginning" with turning parts of itself into individuated conscious beings with freewill who ultimately had the purpose to go out to explore the unknown and to provide companionship to the Creator who seemed to have been awful lonely by itself as One undifferientiated Consciousness.  

 In Bruce's book, he talks about how some of the original beings weren't quite put together in an optimal way, and so they and their individual conscious awareness didn't initially survive the outpouring projection of seeming separation from Source, and some went out intact (as individual beings) but never came back has hoped by Source.  

  Yet One did go out and come back, while i'm not religious and believe in many different belief systems, especially along metaphysical and Eastern lines, i believe this one was the Christ Soul who later projected the personality known as "Jesus".

  It seems that this spark, which i will now refer to as the Creator Soul (C.S.), ended up Co-Creating with Source, the rest of the Universe and the Souls to inhabit it (just as we will graduate to becoming, Creator Gods of other Universes and realities).  

 It also seems that the C.S. decided to specifically create Retriever Souls with a powerful base of Love energy originally to go out to "rescue" these lost Souls (Bob and Bruce learned that they were one of these creations).   Then all various and unique Souls were manifested out of Source energy, with varying degrees and patterns of energy.  

   So, in a sense, not all souls were created with the same inherent potential.   There are lost souls out there, who it seems where created when the experiment was not optimal and it seems that Love was not strongly (or as a base) infused in with their consciousness...

 Cause it wasn't till the C.S. Spark came back, that the Creator realized how to make this plan work optimally and efficiently.  

 Unfortunately, it seems that some of these lost souls have had a very negative and stubborn pattern within various systems and within the Earth as well.   They tend to be rather selfish and destructive througout the pattern of their lifetimes and experiences...  Its like they don't know any better and have a hard time learning an easier way.  

 But this is why the C.S. and Source created the Retreiver Souls, to help guide them back to the Light.  Hopefully all will be guided back to the Light, but this is not necessarily written in stone, some may have to (and some already have?) lose their consciousness awareness as conscious, individual beings.

 So i believe this issue is not black and white, but somewhat more complex.  

Lol. I did not mean for it to sound like an insult.  Not once have I ever been called crazy and taken it as an insult, nor have I known anyone to act defensively upon being called crazy, because the context of the word is friendly.  Its just my way of saying.. what are you talking about.  If it hurt your feelings, Im sorry, it was not meant to be an insult.  

Moving on.. I compared Jesus to the easter bunny because both are fiction.  It does not need to be proven that the easter bunny is fiction(I hope not anyway).  However, the facts are staggering which prove that Jesus is 100% myth.  If you want me to lay them out for you, I will, for I have done much research in the area.  I know you are Chirsitian, so you probably tend not to look in this direction, for it goes against your beliefs.  But believe me, the facts do not lie.  

I confuse satan with Lucifer, just as about 99.5 % of the American population.  I appologize.  Well, then I must say that lucifer is the myth, but how can satan be a myth, when satan is simply "an adversary".  But this is all in biblical terms, with God being a mightey being of power looking over us on his thrown in the sky, with his enemies, lucifer and demons and all those bad guys.  However, this is not how things are in reality.  There is no white bearded dude up there, that is not what god is.  There are no 'adversaries' of god, for all consciousness is god, and consciousness is everything, so.. how can there be an adversary? There can not, and there is not.  There is no "anti-consciousness".  I do not deny the existance of satan due to fear.  At one time in my life I did believe in the whole bible mumbo jumbo.  However, I have grown and shed that skin of fiction and false hope and fear.  You say my prejudice threatens my new age perspective.... but perhaps it is your prejudice of the "new age" which threatens your religious perspective.  Religions have been around since the begining of time.  But a great deal of revealing is taking place these days.. many people are awakening.. and more and more people are realizing how unreal religions are.  Some people are discovering this without even being presented with the hardcore facts that I have come across in my research.  Possessions dont prove lucifer, or satan, or anything dealing with religions.  All it proves is there are beings out there who lack love, and are lost on their path to oneness with god.

Dude,  your proof that Jesus never even existed will be particularly interesting to me, since I received my Harvard PhD in Biblical Studies and Judaism and you are claiming something that even my non-Chrisitan professors there would summarily dismiss.  I hope you're not relying on Price's alleged scholarshihp.  No one in the academic field takes im seriously. I also hope you will invoke primary ancient texts rather than unaqulaified New Age debimlers.  I can already guess how you will mistate the evidence from Josephus.  I xxpect you to address the early rabbinic and Roman evidence and the early version of Jesus' life circulated by his detractors.  Sp bring it on, but, please, start a new thread..  

You have pontificated on demonology enough to create a moral obligation that you read Malachi Martin's case histories in "Hostage to the Devil."  I will remind you of this until you agree to read it!  Otherwise, your rejection of the demonic festers at the level of New Age kooks who claim that the Apollo moon landing was faked in a New Mexico hangar. These New Agers dismiss al evidence to the contrary as part of the government's cover-up.  

Don    

I will indeed start a new thread on this topic upon your request.   And I will also read Hostage to the Devil, as soon as I finish reading Hostage to the Easter Bunny.

I am very disappointed.  Don, I expected you to be above this type of school boy banter.  Of course Jesus existed.  There is much in the Roman historical record to support the facts surrounding his earthly life.  But do you need to prove it in a separate thread? And must you hammer at Dude so?  Compared to others on the board, he has been gentle, not insulting (as I noted in another thread, I have invoked the peer moderator system against objectionable posts such as recent demeaning comments from Ra).  He (Dude) may have been dismissive of the existence of Satan, but he did not deny anyone their right to their beliefs.  Don, would it not have sufficed to point out that Juditha/Deanna's beliefs are to be respected, and end it at that? Dude, please save us the agony of starting a thread about the existence of Jesus.  Don will cite his sources, and in the end we will conclude that there was evidence for his having existed in the real world.  In fact, many of the most notable New Agers here stronly believe in JC, and have a deep reverence for him, Don.  You do know that, correct?


Don, if you are aware of PUL, as I know you are, there is no justification in trading insulting statements like these back and forth, even to make people think.  "Great unwashed new age ghetto herd..." I am so tired of that, Don.  I am part of the community here.  I have engaged you in your thread about NDEs with an earnest, scholarly approach full of references.  I did this in a friendly manner, to tell what I had found out, and to learn from you and others.  Why not use your considerable wit, research and insight in talking about afterlife issues - the truth speaks for itself.  Some of your responses are so heartfelt and full of grace - but these are few and far between compared to the verbal fencing laced with insults where you describe your opponent(s) as illiterate, with poor reading comprehension.

Can't you see Brendan's desparate cry for help?  In one of your answers you could.  He stubbornly creates thread after thread about a dark understanding of reality, the afterlife and soul annilation as the best course for a materialist like himself.  Any caring person can see though that he truly wants to find another path.  In only one of your responses to him do you mention a way out of this darkness - that was the key, not chiding him for his rejection of christianity.

Finally, the idea that we all must read Malachi Martin's Hostage to the Devil in order to have a fair discussion with you is uncalled for - though I always love to hear the recommended reading lists of others.  Dude believes in the demonic.  So do I. What is it that you want to establish with the reading of the case histories there?  If the origins of demons are less to the pont than the fact that they can do damage - ok, point well taken.  

I, for one, was looking forward to your answering Brendan's questions from the first post on this thread.  I'm sorry, but I tend to stay on track in these forums.  I can mix it up with the best of them, including yourself, Don, but I choose to keep it friendly, and laugh off the rest.  Please take these comments as they were meant; as a friend speaking who wishes to discover more about our spiritual path and cut out the insults.


Matthew

By the way, Dude, I just want to add that despite your youth and refreshing irreverance, you do show a great deal of thought and intelligence in your posts for one, who I assume is so young.  You seem to follow the deeper issues discussed here, and your contributions are important and welcome.  In some ways, Don is treating you as he did another member here last year named Spitfire.  He sees the same intelligence and insights you have to offer, and I believe that by fencing back and forth with you, he is, in his own way acknowledging what I openly say here.

Matthew

I will indeed start a new thread on this topic upon your request.   And I will also read Hostage to the Devil, as soon as I finish reading Hostage to the Easter Bunny.
*****************
I'll add that belief in the Easter Bunny has brought a LOT more
happiness over the past 2000 years, than belief in Jesus.
(After all, ever heard of the Easter Bunny throwing anybody
into a Lake of Fire? Or have you ever heard of a preacher
threatening people with eternal torture for not believing in
His Cotton-Tailedness..?)

B-man

Doc
Your comments are greatly appreciated.  If he does feel the same way, he sure has a funny way of showing it.  Kind of like the father who beats his kids because he loves them.

I am very disappointed.  Don, I expected you to be above this type of school boy banter.  Of course Jesus existed.  There is much in the Roman historical record to support the facts surrounding his earthly life.  But do you need to prove it in a separate thread? And must you hammer at Dude so?  Compared to others on the board, he has been gentle, not insulting (as I noted in another thread, I have invoked the peer moderator system against objectionable posts such as recent demeaning comments from Ra).  He (Dude) may have been dismissive of the existence of Satan, but he did not deny anyone their right to their beliefs.  Don, would it not have sufficed to point out that Juditha/Deanna's beliefs are to be respected, and end it at that? Dude, please save us the agony of starting a thread about the existence of Jesus.  Don will cite his sources, and in the end we will conclude that there was evidence for his having existed in the real world.  In fact, many of the most notable New Agers here stronly believe in JC, and have a deep reverence for him, Don.  You do know that, correct?


Don, if you are aware of PUL, as I know you are, there is no justification in trading insulting statements like these back and forth, even to make people think.  "Great unwashed new age ghetto herd..." I am so tired of that, Don.  I am part of the community here.  I have engaged you in your thread about NDEs with an earnest, scholarly approach full of references.  I did this in a friendly manner, to tell what I had found out, and to learn from you and others.  Why not use your considerable wit, research and insight in talking about afterlife issues - the truth speaks for itself.  Some of your responses are so heartfelt and full of grace - but these are few and far between compared to the verbal fencing laced with insults where you describe your opponent(s) as illiterate, with poor reading comprehension.

Can't you see Brendan's desparate cry for help?  In one of your answers you could.  He stubbornly creates thread after thread about a dark understanding of reality, the afterlife and soul annilation as the best course for a materialist like himself.  Any caring person can see though that he truly wants to find another path.  In only one of your responses to him do you mention a way out of this darkness - that was the key, not chiding him for his rejection of christianity.
******************
The key issue here, Doc...
It is that NO known "afterlife scenario" lets ME be the ultimate
decider of where I'm gonna go, and what I'm gonna be.
Limitations, limitations, limitations...
To me, freedom is the ONLY real good, Doc.
Would I rather be annihilated than face an eternity of personal
roadblocks? Most emphatically, YES!!!
If I didn't think that way, hell... I'd have stayed in the Army.
(I'd be up for some pretty decent bennies pretty soon,
if I had..!) But I'm not a "groupie" kind of individual. I'd
rather be captain of my own ship, even if it means I'd
sail it into the rocks. If the traditional "God" exists, I won't
be able to do that, even if I'm not doomed to eternal
torture... hence my repeated misgivings about eternal
life.
Did that help make me more clear on this?

B-man

P.S. I don't think my seeking of after-death oblivion is a
"cry for help", Doc. (I mean... what could you do for me,
anyhow? If I'm doomed to torments eternal , what can YOU
do about it..?)
Besides, I find that when I contemplate oblivion... a deep
feeling of calm and relaxation comes over me. Why should
it not? I became an atheist when I was about 8 years old (my
dad did a pretty good de-bunking of Christianity for me, and
I will always be grateful to him for it. It wasn't until my 30's
that I seriously started to freak-out about Hell, ect. - AFTER I
got Internet access and began studying things metaphysical,
and realized that some very smart people  had some very
compelling reasons to believe that we DID "survive" physical
death... OBEs, NDEs, quantum physical concepts and so on...)
See now, why I can be comfortable with the thought of personal
annihilation? AND why the subject of the afterlife, has become
an intrusive and thoroughly unpleasant item on my thought
menu..?

Hi Chumley God is not to blame for the way you feel,that is down to you not God,he gave you free will to make your own dicisions in life,and i have always beleived in the love of God,yet i was still attacked by demons that night,and God helped me to come through it.

outofbodydude    I saw these demons and i was awake when i saw them,they were no way my imagination,or a result of negative thinking,i said that night before i went to bed that the devil would never get the better of God and something was listening and i saw it and was attacked by those entitys that were in my bedroom,so much so that my spirit came out of my body,also i was held by something around my shoulders,which had the same strength as someone physical and try as i did i could not move and i was screaming for God to help me and he did get me through it and this entity did not let go of me until it was over and when it took hold of my shoulders it actually forced my spirit out of my body.

This really happened and i did not bring it on myself or in anyway create it with my mind ,i was truly attacked by demons and i swear this as my loving God is my witness and  i would not wish this on anyone what i went through,but there are demons out there and i agree with Don as well.

You talk about God Chumley,about him being some kind of bully,you have created these thoughts about God yourself,hes not a bully,he gave you,me and everyone freewill,so you got that wrong about God being a bully,you dont have to do anything you dont want,"hence freewill".

Also my television in my bedroom that same night had white noise and i saw me and my sister on that screen aged 14 yrs old ,i saw it with my own eyes ,even the television went crazy that night.Dont dismiss Demons Outofbodydude because they are definetly about and i can say that with complete confidence.

Love and God bless        Love Juditha

I stared reading some of out of body journeys, and as I read I realized that he encountered some frightening creatures at times. Doesn't sound like it was a lways a pleasant time. Monroe himself even recited the Lords prayer during these travels.
They must have seemed demonic  or something. Its seemed like they saw his life, thats what it seems like to me when I read that. Like they could see he was a living being.

[B-man:] "It is that NO known "afterlife scenario" lets ME be the ultimate
decider of where I'm gonna go, and what I'm gonna be."
_____________________________________________________________
On what basis do you make this claim?  The postmortem principle of like attracts like means that you are drawn to a realm of your core desires and personality.  If you choose a Hell, then you and your likeminded cronies create that Hell by your own desires.  It's just that you won't be able to conceal your thoughts and you will be subject to the principle of receiving the measure and standard that you dish out to other residents.  If you inhabit a realm devoid of God's love, that fate will result from your preference for a godless realm.  So what the Hell's your beef?

[B-man:]  "Limitations, limitations, limitations...Would I rather be annihilated than face an eternity of personal roadblocks? Most emphatically, YES!!!  Did that help make me more clear on this?"
____________________________________-

Yes, you could be clearer; you could explain why you refuse to make choices that would allow you to escape your self-imposed limitations.

[B-man:] "AFTER I got Internet access and began studying things metaphysical,
and realized that some very smart people  had some very compelling reasons to believe that we DID "survive" physical death... OBEs, NDEs, quantum physical concepts and so on...)"
_________________________________

OK, so why won't you read even one book that might help you develop a healing spiritual quest.  Why do you always prejudge what you might like before you even have a chance to explore it?  Because you seem to be an agnostic/ materialist, I'd highly recommend atheist Howard Storm's riveting book, "My Descent into Death."  I think you would love much of what Jesus teaches Storm.  Jesus' NDE teaching would liberate you from your Fundamentalist contamination and give you an appealing and biblically defensible alternative traceable to Jesus Himself.  
_______________________________________________________

Matthew, I know you try to be a peacemaker, but your defense of Tim and Dude is appalling.  Suppose a friend and I were seated next to a Black couple in a restaurant and I told a funny story laced with N-bombs that offended that couple.  Might I be excused by claiming I was just joking around; so lighten up!  Of course not.  The timing and context would make my levity inexcusable.  Do you really imagine that I failed to notice that Tim was being frivolous?  Frivolity in the face of Ra's attempt to demean with an nsulting profanity-laced tirade amounts to connivance with the ridicule.  You of all people should realize that.  

As for Dude, he attempted to insult me via Swedenborg.  In any case, terms like "retard", "barf," and "bull" applied to ES and then to the twins is boorishly insensitive.  And Dude brutally mischaracterized and stereotyped ES's teaching, as I carefully explain in reply.  Don't you read what i say before attacking me?  I apologize for nothing and consider what I do motivated by love, since my goal is to motivate New Agers to explore alternate perspectives and thus hone their discernment of competing claims about the afterlife.  And as you know, this approach worked well with Spitfire and others from this site whose private dialogue with me has facilitated profonged and fruitful spiritual quests.  

Don

Quote:

As for Dude, he attempted to insult me via Swedenborg.  In any case, terms like "retard", "barf," and "bull" applied to ES and then to the twins is boorishly insensitive.

How many times to you want to soil my name with your slanderous filth.  

I did not attempt to insult you via Swedenbozo.  Because of your strict loyalty to him, however, it is obvious to me that you would think such a thing.  I mean, are you his great great great great grandson???  Perhaps if you had some type of strong family ties to him, or if you worshiped him as a god, I could understand what I said about him to come off as an insult towards you.  But I very much doubt this is the case, so just lighten up.  

I never applied any negative words to the twins.  I applied those words towards the big red dope satan.  Insensative, you say?  Is that why the point of my posts was to allieviate them from their hold on this silly belief in order to free them from the negative energy associated with this thinking?  Because I strictly stated this in those posts.  Your "crude dude" filter probably blocked that out, however.

There is truth in what Dude says, Don.  He would say that Satan was a myth, but was careful not to disparage them.  Likewise, for Ra I reported him to the peer moderator system, as I felt much like you did.

For Tim F., well, let us just say that you and I disagree.  He was, in no way supporting Ra's inappropriateness, but also did not feel compelled to report him as I did.  

I don't ask for an apology from you, Don.  I simply feel that one need not continue the process of name calling, even if started inappropriately by one such as Ra.  Your points and comments speak for themselves, Don.


Matthew

[ "It is that NO known "afterlife scenario" lets ME be the ultimate
decider of where I'm gonna go, and what I'm gonna be."
_____________________________________________________________
On what basis do you make this claim?  The postmortem principle of like attracts like means that you are drawn to realm of your core desires and personality.  If you choose a Hell, then you and your likeminded cronies create that Hell by your own desires.  It's just that you won't be able to conceal your thoughts and you will be subject to the principle of receiving the measure and standard that you dish out to other residents.  If you inhabit a realm devoid of God's love, that fate will result from your preference for a godless realm.  So what the Hell's your beef?
*****************
HERE'S my beef, Don.
I like to be LEFT ALONE by people.
In my "afterlife", I'd like have the capacity to become so massively
POWERFUL (mentally, physically, and financially) that I could FORCE others to stay out of my face!!! If I
was a walking arsenal of POWER, I would at least be left
alone, after I was messed with ONCE. (That's all it would
take..!)
But in "Hell", I wouldn't get to be massively powerful. I'd
probably be WEAK (and have to STAY that way FOREVER) and I'd get disrespected, tortured and butt-f***ed on a regular
basis. (Wouldn't be HELL otherwise, would it???)
ALSO... I LOVE PRIVACY! If others could read my mind,
I'd be screwed on that one (no pun intended.)
So annihilation is best for me... and the faster I could get
annihilated, the better.
So you see, Don... if you are right about the afterlife, I face
the same problem as ever. Inane, goody-goody Special Olympics "Heaven"...
OR a wretched existence in "Hell." (Wow, some choice, huh???)
THERE'S my #6%&ing BEEF, Don old boy...

B-man

I believe that many of your current personal desires and your general outlook of things has been shaped and possibly even corrupted by this place we reside called planet earth.  I believe that once you die and are greeted by guides and other loved ones, you will remember who you were before you came to earth, what your purpose was, you will recconnect with the feelings of love you once had, and ultimately the conscious being of love that you are, and will no longer desire annahilation.

D-Man

[B-man:] "HERE'S my beef, Don.  I like to be LEFT ALONE by people....... I LOVE PRIVACY! If others could read my mind, I'd be screwed on that one (no pun intended.)  So annihilation is best for me... and the faster I could get
annihilated, the better."
_____________________________________________________________

Brendan, you are making false assumptions that deprive you of the postmortem joy you might obtain.  Jesus and modern paranormal evidence for the afterlife agree on this point: the afterlife is governed by the principle of like attracts like.  Like myself, you are very private.   So by this principle, you will likely be drawn to a realm of other souls who jealously guard their privacy.   I have read many reports of astral journeys to heavenly realms that draw attention to seemingly rural areas for those who prefer solitude.  You don't have to worry about others reading your mind if they keep away from you.

[B-man:] "So you see, Don... if you are right about the afterlife, I face
the same problem as ever. Inane, goody-goody Special Olympics "Heaven"...
OR a wretched existence in "Hell."
______________________________________________________________

Sewdenborg discovered that there are a countless variety of heavenly planes, each suited to the unique personalities of their residents.  One of these options is a private contemplative lifestyle in which you will not be besieged by "goody-goody special Olympics."  True, you must treasure pure unconditional love to achieve these heights, but what burden does that pose if you are not subjected to unwanted obligations?  You can focus on the bliss of reveling in the energy of divine love and pursue favorite hobbies.  True, you must overcome any bitterness and selfish exploitation of others.  But you will also be allowed, indeed encouraged, to explore your own unique sources of pleasure.  Granted, not physical sex--but an even more satisfying source of heterosexual union exquisitely described by ES.   Consider this quote from Sedenborg on the issue of privacy in the heavens:

"One person is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired....Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance....as soon as they disagree, they vanish....Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened, depending on their desire, even though it is the same path.  I have often seen this, much to my surprise (Heaven and Hell #194=195)."

So why not explore the prospect of a heaven perfectly suited to your needs?  Don't take for granted that you know everything that can and cannot make you happy in the postmortem state.   Allow yourself to experience the real God of loving freedom who lurks behind the Fundamentalist counterfeit God.

Don

Ra's post and the energy behind it is truthful. All of our posts at this site exist as symbols to each other. To understand Ra's post, you have to walk in his shoes, live for a moment in the context of being a young person in america. I am old, a dinosaur. So are you who criticise Ra. I'm sorry; you have no right to critcise his passion. He IS the future. He is 19 years old, born in this american culture. Walk in his shoes before you dare say  he is unnecessarily rude. Within the last 6 years he has lived with an american president who says that the chrisitian God personally speaks to him. This 'divinely' led leader has started a useless war (costing 3000 + lives, helping to bankrupt the u.s. economy etc.) has denied the truth of global-warming and has instituted enviornmental policies that harm the eco-system and poison it's inhabitants, has bankrupted the u.s. economy so that future generations will be forced to pay the debts his administration has incurred, all with the certitude of being 'religiously right". This is the future this 'christian' leader has left it's young people. When asked "How will future generations judge you?", this american president replied "It doesn't matter; I'll be dead." He has no thought of those who will live past his own lifetime, no thought of leaving the world a better place after he is gone. And yet he is the most powerful voice of christianity in the u.s.  He has commited theft, robbed from the future, in the name of christianity. Our children will suffer because of this 'christian'.

We write words here and post them. They exist as symbols. Ra wrote a post in response to eggshells. Her post exists as a symbol to Ra. Eggshells is NOT a symbol; she is a unique indivual, in no way a fundamentalist. Ra reacted to her post symbolically, not as the unique indivual that she is. That's not helpful. But it doesn't make the context, the energy of his post any less truthful, he expresses a truth of these times. Still, Eggshells is a sweetheart, not a symbol. I do not condone the disrespect given her. Still, I think she is big enough to recognise and forgive the passion of the young. Especially in these times.

We can relate to each other here much more personally, not as abstract symbols and still express the passion of the times we live in. We are all unique indivuals. Who cares about the history of religion? I care about your day to day lives. That's what's important. That and the future we can bring into being through our collective vision and imagination.

Respect and love to you all,
                                         Tim f.

Brendan, you are making false assumptions that deprive you of the postmortem joy you might obtain.
******************
-So be it.
______________________________________________________________

Sewdenborg discovered that there are a countless variety of heavenly planes, each suited to the unique personalities of their residents.  One of these options is a private contemplative lifestyle in which you will not be besieged by "goody-goody special Olympics."  True, you must treasure pure unconditional love to achieve these heights, but what burden does that pose if you are not subjected to unwanted obligations?  You can focus on the bliss of reveling in the energy of divine love and pursue favorite hobbies.  True, you must overcome any bitterness and selfish exploitation of others.  But you will also be allowed, indeed encouraged, to explore your own unique sources of pleasure.  Granted, not physical sex--but an even more satisfying source of heterosexual union exquisitely described by ES.   Consider this quote from Sedenborg on the issue of privacy in the heavens:

"One person is present to another only if that presence is intensely desired....Conversely, one person moves away from another to the extent that there is any sense of reluctance....as soon as they disagree, they vanish....Whenever people move from one place to another, whether it is within their town, in their courtyards, in their gardens, or to people outside their own community, they get there more quickly if they are eager to and more slowly if they are not.  The path itself is lengthened or shortened, depending on their desire, even though it is the same path.  I have often seen this, much to my surprise (Heaven and Hell #194=195)."

So why not explore the prospect of a heaven perfectly suited to your needs?
*****************
-Because there's no such place, Don. Some of the things I like
are what you would frankly call hellish.
I believe there are some "hellish" experiences I have not had, which
would have been a great test of my fiber and my worth, were I to deal with them successfully. These things are not to be had in your conception of a "heaven."
There are other "hellish" experiences (sins?) I did not indulge in, which I regret not indulging in to this day...
There have been some "heaven-incompatible" things which I have
attempted, and did not achieve to my satisfaction. These failures gnaw at me to this day, and always will. I won't have a second chance at many of these things in this life (too old, or they were one-shot deals) and opportunity to tackle them again won't present itself in "Heaven." In "Hell", I'd be doomed to fail AGAIN (such is hellishness!) Only reincarnation, or cryonics with rejuvenation would allow me to tackle such undertakings...
Plus, I DON'T WANT to "love everybody." I DON'T WANT to be "all-forgiving." Just doesn't jibe with the ideals I hold for myself... which might strike you as unusual, some of them... were I to share them with you (which I'm not going to do.) But these ideals are MINE, arrived at over a lifetime of thought... whether they are "right" or "wrong" in a metaphysically objective sense, doesn't matter to me. They came to me NATURALLY, without having to shoehorn my values into somebody else's value system. They are "right" to ME, and that's all I care about... and I'd rather ***cease to exist*** than let them go. Simple as that...
What's so awful about oblivion, anyway? Why does EVERYBODY loathe
such a prospect (even to the point of preferring traditional Christian "torture in hell" to it for THEMSELVES? On other forums and blogs, I've literally been told as much!)

B-man

P.S. Why is SEX singled out for "illegality" in "Heaven"
And #$%&ing WORK isn't? Every account of "Heaven"
I've read, says you've got to WORK (not for yourself,
but SOMEBODY ELSE.)
I'll tell you why, Don. Christianity is a kill-joy religion. It
glorifies SUFFERING. To paraphrase Mother Theresa:
"The suffering of the poor people is a very beautiful thing."
(I assume the suffering of RICH people is ugly then..?)
Sex is fun. Work ISN'T. Hence the presence of work (most
likely menial) and the absence of sex.
'Nuff said!

Brendan,
You don't want to be "all-loving" and "all-forgiving" simply because you have never experienced divine love.  Once you have such an experience your priorities and desires will change dramatically.   If you read atheist Howard Storm's "My Descent into Death," you'll begin to experience what I'm talking about.   What do you have to lose?  Read Storm and you just might be able to  shut me up!  :-)  

You keep referring to your "sinful" past and the intractability of some of your unspiritual desires.   Don't you raalize how unseemly the early lives of the greatest saints were?   King David was a murderer an adulterer, and a dreadful father, and yet, he is the only man in the Bible to be described as "a man after God's own heart."  St. Paul was a hitman for the Pharisees who delighted in intimidating, killing, beating, and jailing Christians.  He wraught all this mayhem with a clear conscience and the conviction that he was just protecting Judaism.  
But after his blinding light encoutner with Fhrist on the Damascus road, his former violent passions were transmuted into pure unconidtional love and he became one of the most effective spiritual giants who ever lived.  He single-handledly established Christianity as a future world religion.  St. Augustine was a cultist and a womanizer, who fathered a child ouot of wedlock and was pronounced incorrigibly delingquent by his school teachers.   Yet his margvelous encounter with God transformed him into one of the most psychologically insightly spiritual giants.   Augustine wrote the first spiritual autobiography in human history.  

My point is this: God's only interest in your "sinful" past focuses on its potential as a launching pad for a gloriously joyful and spiritually effective future.  We all evolve psychologically over a lifetme and our desires and longings change as we evolve.   I know you believe that you will never change.  There is an easy way to prove you are mistaken.   Read Howard Storm's "My Descent into Death" and then discuss it with me.   Just thnk about it.  You just might make me eat crow.  Not!   I'm confident that the book and its astounding verifications will melt your heart and change your priorities.  Prove me wrong!

In the final analysis, you need to confront this question.   Why choose a hellish path so unpleasant that you will crave annihilation?   Your reply: "Because I couldn't tolerate a heavenly realm."   But you don't read books, and so, are still ignorant of the range of freedom and lifestyles in the heavenly realms.   In my view, your greatest Hell in the afterlife will amount to this: your core desires are not what you always thought they are.  Boredom with one's current plight can be an effective agent of spiritual transformation.

Don

 Along Don's last post regarding Howard Storm, etc.

 I also recommend Dannion Brinkley's stuff, now there is a story of intense and extreme transformation Brendan.    

 Apparently Dannion was quite the materialist with very little self or other love.  Probably thought happiness consisted soley of money, food, sex, and status (looking good to others).  One bad arse kind of dude.

Lol let's just hope that your Total self doesn't choose such a drastic and extreme method of "wake up call" like Dannion's did!

 Anyways, point being that maybe Don has a point in his above post (though i'm not fond of his sometimes intellectually bullying methods or name calling)?

 Maybe there is much more to happiness than you have yet to imagine, or experience beyond material considerations?

 What i do know from personal experience is that when i was a materialist who had very little self love (though plenty of ego which seemed like self confidence and self esteem), and lacked acceptance and tolerance towards others, i was a miserable and depressed person until i started to move out of that mode more and more.