Haha I hope everyone likes the Subject of this post.  It was just a joke by the way, I know some of you die by the words of this man so please don't lynch me.

This is mainly for Beserk, but also for everyone.

So I was thinking about one of Swedenborgs theories and ran into a bit of a paradox.  He claims that the longer you are in the afterlife, the more your outer most virtues and personality are stripped away, and your deepest self emerges.  And he says that will bring you into heaven or hell.  Well it seems apartent to me that the outer shell that you eventually emerge from is based on your life on earth, and your inner self is what you were before your life on earth, since our existance before earth is most likely almost infinately long.  So if this is so, that we shed our personality that we gained on earth, and like this dude claims, we eventually forget it all anyway, then there would be no point to even having a life on earth, and we would not be here.  And lets say we shed our skin and our inner most personality is evil and sinnister, sending us to a hell.  Well that would mean that this is how we were before our life on earth as well, being as we just shed our earth-gained personality.  So if we were this evil being of consiousness before earth, that would mean we were in hell before we came to earth. Which means we would not even be on earth, we would still be in hell.  If we evolved from the hell we were in into the higher levels then it would be possible to come to earth, but then that evil in us would not be present any longer.  

And by the way, this man began his astral journeys at the tender age of somthing like 56 or 58.  This gave him plenty of time to construct a belief system during his life, which I have no doubt skewed some of his experiences and findings.  For example, this dude calls any being he saw out there an "angel".  I am not dogging him in any way, but it is obvious that a man from that time period would not have the open-mindedness of someone from today.  And to call Monroes journeys "bogus" is absolutely biased and irrational, I couldnt help but notice this remark in one of the previous posts.  Monroe had a remarkable number of verifications.  Perhaps you are assuming that he wrote every single journey he took and every single verification in his three books.  Monroe was not as egotistical as your man Swedenborg, it is obvious that he had much better intensions then him as well.  Monroes goal was not to convince the world that his way is right, but it was to give people the tools and motivation to explore for themselves.  Just because Monroe does not give a verification for every one of his experiences does not in any way prove that they are "bogus".  Like I said, his motives for his work are much more charitable and benificial to humanity.   As I was writting that last word 'humanity', I had deja vu.  As if I have typed this exact message before.  Weird.

hey, great pic! love it. Dude you mentioned that Don used the word bogus. very astute that you recognize the use of that word to make comment on it.
If you are interested in the history of our board here, anyone may go to announcements click on Happy Birthday Bob Monroe, and there you find hundreds of hits on that thread regarding Don's philosophy or shall I say in as nice a way as possible lack of empathy for our projects here. Our administrator Bruce is joining in there.
We simply repeat history now. no biggee. Don and Doc may have some interesting conversations coming up I've a feeling.


 I'm not sure Don, you even realize the word bogus can be taken as an insult although part of me thinks you do realize that.

If he gets too rowdy we have the peer moderator system which any one of us can participate in by simply sending any email with objections listed.
I thank you Dude for recognizing the work both Monroe and Moen has done and continue to do is very important for those of us on a similar journey.
and for those of us whereby old timey religion simply does not work for us. ps. old timey is a better definition than retard me thinks. ;)
hmm. some of us have a taxi service, some of us have to walk to get to where we go.
love!

Dude,

Perhaps you should change your nickname to "Crude Dude." You are creating a crude caricature of ES's position and obviously have never read the relevant section in his magisterial book "Heavenl and Hell." I will repost a portion of my relevant ES post on the 3 transitional stages of dying for your illumination:

"When we die, we are still alive and just as human as ever.  To convince me of this, [the Lord] has allowed me to talk with almost all the people I have ever met during their physical lives, with some for a few hours, with some for weeks and months, and some for years.  This was primarily so that I could be convinced and bear witness ("Heaven and Hell," 437)."

"There are three states that we pass through after death before we arrive at either heaven or hell.  The first state is one of more outward concerns.  The second is one of more inward concerns, and the third is one of preparation.  We go through all three states in the world of spirits.  Some people do not go through these states, but are either raised into heaven or cast into hell immediately after their death (HH 491)."  

The "world of spirits" is a transitional state between the heavens and hells and seems to be the equivalent of Focus 25 and 26 in the Monroe-Moen nomenclature.  The highest level of the world of spirits seems to be the equivalent of Focus 27.  In biblical terms, the world of spirits embraces Hades (not to be confused with Hell) in its lower planes and Paradise, an old Persian term for "park", in its upper planes.  

(1) OUR FIRST STATE AFTER DEATH

"We use the outward aspects of our spirit to adapt our bodies in the world--especially our faces, our speech, and behavior--to our interactions with other people.  The more inward aspects of our spirit are the ones proper to our intentions and consequent thought, which rarely show in faces, speech, and behavior.  We are trained from infancy to present ourselves as friendly, benevolent, and honest, and to conceal the thoughts of our own intentions.  As a result, of this habitual behavior, we scarely know our inner natures and pay no attention to them (HH 492)."

"Our first state after death is like our state in the world, since we are then similarly involved in outward concerns. We have similar faces, voices, and character; we lead similar moral and civic lives.  That is why it still seems to us as though we were in this world unless we notice things that are out of the ordinary (HH 493)."

Most NDEs are marvelous experiences.  But ES chillingly insists that the initial postmortem state is normally wonderful even for people who will ultimately find their way to a hell.  ES's mention of their trips to gorgeous gardens and parks in the first state recalls descriptions of Focus 27:

"Their friends...take them around to various places, into the company of different people.  They go to different cities, to gardens and parks, often to gorgeous ones because things like that appeal to the outward concerns they are involved in.  Many of them think they will make it into heaven because they led moral and civic lives in the world, not reflecting that both good and evil people lead similar outward lives (HH 495)."

ES adds that "the first state after death...rarely lasts more than a year for anyone (HH 498)."   This fits neatly with modern research on contacts received by the recently bereaved from deceased loved ones.  One study indicated that 50% of Americans and 48% of the British report convincing contacts with their deceased loved ones within the first year since their death.  After that, the number of such contacts dramatically dwindles. Making such contacts is much harder for those who have moved on from the world of spirits to a heaven or a hell.

(2) OUR SECOND STATE AFTER DEATH

"Our second state after death is called a state of our deeper interests because then we are given access to the deeper reaches of our minds, or of our intentions and thoughts, while the more outward interests that engaged us in the first state become dormant (HH 499)."  "We as spirits are brought...into the state of those deeper intentions and consequent thoughts we engaged in when we were left to ourselves in the world and our thinking was free and unfettered (502)."

At this stage we shed aspects of self that were shaped by social expectations, peer pressure, and the need to present an acceptable presenting self that can mask our inner self.  As a result, "people who were inwardly devoted to the good...then behave..more wisely than when they were living in the world...In contrast, people who were focused on evil...then behave more insanely then when they were in the world (HH 505)."  It now becomes impossible to act one way and inwardly be another.  The person pauses at this threshold world long enough to become one with her own nature.  ONE'S TRUE SELF IS STRIPPED OF ONE'S VARIOUS SUPERFICIAL ACTS THAT HELPED US DECEIVE OTHERS.  YOUR TRUE SELF AT LAST BECOMES EVIDENT TO ALL WHO ENCOUNTER YOU.

"Once people like this are in the second state, they are let back into the state of their more outward concerns for brief periods of time.  They then retain a memory of how they behaved when they were in the state of their more inward concerns.  Some of them are embarrassed and admit they were insane.  Some of them are not embarrassed at all.  Some of them resent the fact that they are not allowed to be in the state of their more outward concerns all the time, but they are shown what they would be like if they were continually in this state.  They would constantly be trying to do the same things covertly, misleading people of simple heart and faith with simulations of goodness, honesty, and fairness.  They would destroy themselves completely because eventually their outer natures would be ablaze with the same fire as their inner natures (HH  506)."

"The things they [evil people] had done and said in secret are now made public, too, because now,  since outward factors are not constraining them, they say the same things openly, and they keep trying to the same things without any fear for the reputations they had in the world...They [visually] look to angels and good spirits like the [evil] people they really are (HH 507)."

(3) OUR THIRD STATE AFTER DEATH

Our third state after death is one of instruction.  This state is for people who are entering heaven and becoming angels and not for people who are entering hell, because the latter cannot be taught
(HH 512)."  Their close-mindedness prevents them from sensing the vast heavenly world beyond the world of spirits.  "As a result, their second state... ends in their turning straight toward...the hellish community that is engaged in a love like their own."  The general intention of the hells is to ignore God and vault the interests of self above all others.  

Heaven is not just reserved for Christians.  On the one hand, ES casually mentions bishops he has encountered in hell.  On the other hand, humble and teachable agnostics who have lived the equivalent of a loving Christian life will then be "taught things like that God exists, that heaven and hell exist, that there is a life after death, that God is to be loved above all, and our neighbor as ourselves, and that we are to believe what is said in the Word because the Word is divine (HH 512)."  

Dude, you also gleefully mischaracterize my critique of Monroe in your allegation that I dismiss his astral journeys as "bogus."    

In fact, I'm willing to concede that RAM may have had genuine OBEs. Why else would I purchase a complete set of his Gateway CDs and practice with them?
Why else would I apply to take the standard Gateway course at TMI?  TMI denied my application because they were already booked.  In an experiment conducted by Charles Tart, RAM's gift did not bear up very well under close scrutiny.  "His [RAM's] continuing description of what our home looked like and what my wife and I were doing was not good at all; he `perceived' too many people in the room, he `perceived' me doing things I did not do, and his description of the room itself was quite vague."  [See Tart's Introduction to "Journeys Out of the Body."].  RAM's books report a couple of OBEs which might be construed as verifications.  But the calibre of his verifications is not even close to that of ES's many spectacular verifications.  

Since you raised the issue, let me draw your attention to just some of RAM's dubious claims that tax my credulity to the limit.  In his college days, RAM gained acclaim for a play he wrote.  It is his creativity as a playwrite that is on display in 3 of his delusory past life experiences during supposed OBEs:

(1) a prior incarnation as a cave man pilot of a mentally controlled aircraft that is forced to dodge the spears of primitive hostile natives (UJ 157): The combination of prehistoric and modern technological motifs exposes the delusion here.  It seems fanciful to smply resort to the desperate expedient of claiming that cave men and pilots used to  interact regularly on another planet.

(2) an incarnation as a "vibrationist" from a "probably" non-human race whose members "have and use the ability to manipulate matter to suit whatever need through mental vibrational energy (UJ 158f.)  Sure!

(3) a prior incarnation as a novice Christian priest invited by his fellow priests to rape " a frightened young girl" who is tied down and spread-eagled for a kind of spiritual test for RAM: RAM asks us to believe that the girl is a prior incarnation of his wife, Nancy (UJ 154-56).  As corrupt as some in holy orders sometimes are, no Catholic order would formally invite a novitiate to rape a young girl!

RAM offers an earlier version of this memory in "Far Journeys," 115-16.  The 2 versions contradict each other in enough absurd ways to discredit this whole past life memory.  In both versions, a young girl is tied down on a church altar, but RAM is dissuaded from performing the nasty ritual by the deep expression in her eyes.  In the earlier version, his assigment is to kill her with several stabbings from a sword.  Supposedly, these stabbings will cause her "exquisite ecstasy."  In the later version, he must simply rape her.  In the earlier version, RAM is already a priest and is well aware of the deadly ritual he must perform.  In the later version, he is only a novice and has no advance inkling about the nature of the ritual.  In the earlier version, a mob will stone him to death if he backs out of the ritual.  In the later version, the ritual is just a test.  The other priests would stop him if he proceeded.  The earlier version has a fairy tale ending: a bright white ray melts the sword and severs the ropes that bind the girl.  In the later version, the white light simply signals the end of the vision of RAM'S past life.  Need I say more?

Equally absurd is RAM's alleged OBE encounter with an alien who emerges from a flying saucer looking like comedian, W. C. Fields.  this alien confesses that his species has come to earth not to do DNA experiments, but to collect jokes (UJ 48-50).  

Alysia, you continue to amaze me.   You greet my new threads with insults and then simply cheerlead those who engage me in debate.   You see no need to apologize for making sport of my cancer and for rewarding our private communication about my cancer by telling the board that you think I am in fact dying and lying about it.   But I expect nothing better from you.  What disturbs me is that the New Age groupies on this board generally seem to see nothing wrong with such abominable insensitivity.  If I were dying and wanted to keep the gravity of my cancer private, what right do you have to try to increase my pain by "outing" me in that way?  Fortumtely, my blood tests have all been clean so far.   Perhaps that may change, in which case I would not give you the satisfaction of notification.  

Don

Dude,

Perhaps you should change your nickname to "Crude Dude." You are creating a crude caricature of ES's position and obviously have read neither his magisterial book "Hell and Hell" nor the relevant section of my ES thread on his astral discoveries about the first 3 transitional stages after dying.  I will repost a portion of my relevant ES post for your illumination:
*****************
"Hell and Hell"?
Appropriate! Christian Heaven would be TRUE HELL for me, Don!
BTW, sorry to hear about your cancer. Good Luck with beating
it. (If you DON'T make it, I hope that you get something BETTER
than the Chinese Communism that Christianity has to offer in
its "Heaven"...)
To your health,

B-man

Quote:

A doctrinaire acceptance of the limited explorations of Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen can inflict a false impression .........................resulting from premature inferences and bogus astral experiences

You say that I misjudge your view of Monroe, yet here its quite obvious that you call his experiences bogus.  You say the same thing about Moens experiences too, Ive heard that a few times.  Its your opinion and thats fine.  Your entitled.  

You spotted four experiences that Monroe wrote about in which is perception of things was probably distorted for one reason or another.  Of course, Monroe has somthing around the ballpark of 35 years of experience.  When you put this into consideration, it is ludicris to dissmiss all of his work simply because 0.001% of his experiences did not suite your taste.  Of course, the main focus of my post was the fact that there are condraditions in Swedenbogus's work, and of course I never recieve any comments when I bring up the fact that his beliefs played a role in his experiences, because I'm sure you realise this.
I take it that you became head over heals for Swedenbogus, and when anything new or different came along you dismissed it and tried to find any evidence you could to discredit.  I am not criticising, simply making an opinionated observation.

Swedenbogus had more verifications, but his name is, for the most part, buried in the dirt of the 18th century. Monroe's name will live on forever, however, for he has helped millions in thier quest for greater knowledge, understanding, the expansion of consciousness, and the evolution of the spirit.

I do not see the need to label every new member to the board as a "new age groupie".  The fact is that us "new age groupies" may very well lead the future world into a new state of human consciousness and spread peace and love.  That is my goal anyway, and I do not believe that throwing us in the backseat with dispise and impatience is a loving thing to do.  

In debates, there are generally two sides.  In your last paragraph, it seems as if you take it that people on the other side of a debate with you are your enemy.  You claim Alysia is insulting you, and that me and other newbies are insensitive, when in reality absolutely no insults were thrown even in your general direction.  Your sternness and matter-of-fact approach to debates, such as this one, only intensifies the beliefs of those on the other side.  Thats just simple psychology, someone with as many years on this earth as yourself should know this.  So it appears as if perhaps you are only trying to convince yourself.    

Dude,

The title of this thread violates the posting guidelines of this forum; I suggest you change it or simply delete this thread, and post your comments to the ADC thread Don started.  (If so, Don, I would ask that you replicate your response on Swedenborg's three stages after death).  While somewhat humorous in a schoolboy kind of way, the use of the term "old retard," is juvenile and insulting - you and I both know this.  However, Dude, your response reflects a good understanding of the issues.  I share the horror at the idea that our minds could descend into a form of memory loss and lunacy, after we die.  It is Brendan/Chumley's worst nightmare on this board, and I must admit mine as well.  The universe, as we perceive it in the physical world seems to be governed by a divine order and, for lack of a better word - intelligence.  Hard to believe then that we could forget what we learned on earth or those who were loved in our family.  

I think it would help if Don clarified what percent of people Swedenborg believed to experience this memory loss and idiocy.  I know he believed in a balance, however I find it hard to believe that the vast majority or even 50% of us are bound for a hellish plane.  

When we dream, in general we have an awareness of self, but we are confronted with imagery, usually have no control of the situation and rarely can inject logic in the often seemingly nonsensical goings on.  If this were our state after death, (a dreamstate) I for one would be terrified.  One thing Swedenborg does not mention in Heaven and Hell (which I highly recommend to everyone) is what instruction and help we receive at each level....

Losing the outer aspect of our masks that we wear out of what society expects on earth makes sense.  Remember the BTK serial killer?  He was a respected member of a community, went to church, had a wife, kid, little league, the whole thing.  Yet his inner nature was that of a sadistic torturing killer.  In spirit, there are no masks to hide your inner self.  The front we put on in life becomes less and less important.  This makes sense to me.  

But New Age thought speaks of helpers, consciousness workers, angels and loved ones who continually are there, whether recognized or not, trying to make contact and show love and support for each of us.  I hear nothing of this from ES, and in my opinion, this is a missing piece of the puzzle.  An earthly existence truly seems wasted if, there is no hope of soul retrieval or advancement.  If the universe is based on love, as ES implies - a love of heaven and God, it would also stand to reason that love would extend to those who would lose memory and rationality in the afterlife.  Where is evidence of this in ES' work?  I know ES had stated that only those who could become angels received instruction; those on a hellish path were only concerned with themselves and distanced themselves from God.  But did God and the angels/helpers, constantly try to reach out to them?

Dude, please change the title of this thread or delete it.  I am not fond of either side in this debate bringing the discussion down to a personal level.

Regarding Monroe vs. Swedenborg, it is like comparing apples and oranges.  Monroe freely admitted being an explorer, and did try to help others explore and learn that they were more than their bodies.  He made no pretense of knowing the entire structure of the universe.  ES was permitted in depth conversations with angels, and full exploration of all stages of consciousness.  Yes, ES may have interpreted things through his own belief system, however his mind was scientifically trained and good science tries to filter out selection bias.  ES' disciplined mind took in all he heard/saw and organized it into an exposition, in the hopes that others might learn from it.  However, Monroe never had such full access to the divine, and never made claims to it.  That being said, this is not a contest we are talking about, so the direct comparison of the two men holds little value.


Matthew

Its sometimes good to have a mediator in a debate such as this. Thanks for the input Doc.  The title of this post is not meant to be offensive, but humorous.  I am probably close to 20 years younger than you, so I assume our senses of humor may be a little different.  I see no reason to change it, it is only offensive to Swedenbogus, and I don't hear any complaints from him.  Probably because all of his outer shells have been stripped away and he is probably in one of his hells.  Even if he wasnt in hell he probably wouldnt remember who he was in this life anyway.  Am I right? (my sense of humor strikes again- we cant be straight faced 24/7 can we?)  But alright, Ill change the title..

I wondered how long it would be before old wounds were opened and insults started flying back and forth once again.  

Will we ever learn to live in a peaceful and respectful manner?  

I was really hoping this wouldn't happen again.

Kathy

I Am Dude wrote on Dec 29^th, 2006 at 4:17am:

Its sometimes good to have a mediator in a debate such as this. Thanks for the input Doc.  The title of this post is not meant to be offensive, but humorous.  I am probably close to 20 years younger than you, so I assume our senses of humor may be a little different.  I see no reason to change it, it is only offensive to Swedenbogus, and I don't hear any complaints from him.  Probably because all of his outer shells have been stripped away and he is probably in one of his hells.  Even if he wasnt in hell he probably wouldnt remember who he was in this life anyway.  Am I right? (my sense of humor strikes again- we cant be straight faced 24/7 can we?)  But alright, Ill change the title..

It's often a tactic of a bully to say that their rudeness and lack of empathy is "just a joke".  That way if someone's offended, they can deflect it by saying that  "Ahhh, you just don't have a sense of humor".

 B.T.W; I have a "retarded" friend. She is one of the most loving and sweet human beings I've ever known. I associate that word with someone who emanates caring and innocent love.

Just a few thoughts, nothing more.

Tim

"Beserk" said: (btw Don, you should change the name Berserk to something less self prophesizing) I'm not kidding, every time we pick a name for ourselves, we start to fulfill that name's purpose, and I don't think you are Berserk. I just think you are a seeker.

therefore Don said: Alysia, you continue to amaze me.
Me: I find myself complemented that I can amaze you. I love being the center of attention. thank you. what about you? you certainly draw a crowd here when you show up every 3 months armed with further arsenal to lay us under.

Don:   You greet my new threads with insults
I read my post to you several times to see if it sounded insulting and even edited the first post so it wouldn't. I would ask you to do the same thing instead of venting on this board because we don't see things exactly as you would have us.

and then simply cheerlead those who engage me in debate.
hold on Don. You often talk of challenge, but when we debate with you and accept your challenge you now say I'm on the wrong side? duh. you want debate you came to the right place. I only ask we all get equal say here. Dude here is simply supporting TMI as I do. established any institutions for learning yet Don? better get cooking if you want to make your mark in the world.

Don said:   You see no need to apologize for making sport of my cancer and for rewarding our private communication about my cancer by telling the board that you think I am in fact dying and lying about it.
scuse me. you are like an old fishwife, just won't let bygones be bygones now will we? just how many years are you intending to harp on this? Let me explain once more as I already did in my pm to you. Something is eating you Don, and when something is eating a person it outpictures on the physical in myriad ways, sometimes it turns into cancer. I know you're worried about being sent to hell straightway when you die and thats what your cancer cells do..they comply with your wish to eat you alive. btw, we all have cancer cells in us. generally they are overcome by the immune system. Cancer can be overcome and I would expect that you can overcome it and have. I am thrilled you thought to confide to me that you had overcome it. Yet year after year you return here with only hatred to give us. To my perception I can feel your emotions as I am empathic. A person who gives enmity off their posts is not a healthy person, that is my position for trying to help you. Give love. cease to dump on us hatred and insults and the body will certainly reflect your new attitude. I am amazed at you too Don, a man who has studied psychology should already know these things.

 Don said: But I expect nothing better from you.
And I have come to expect nothing better from you and accept that this is what you are here to express, your grievances against this thought form here that we present. We do actually need your voice here as it only makes us more certain of the path we have chosen. I take nothing personally that you say anymore. and if you take me wrong or if I express myself incompletely on this board I regret it. but these are words on a post, in the interest of learning we should be able to offer forgiveness to one another swiftly so that we can build a sharing community...and not necessarily based on ES premises. this is Bruces living room and I am tired of reminding you that you are a guest here and should honor all peoples in a respectful manner.

 Don said: What disturbs me is that the New Age groupies on this board generally seem to see nothing wrong with such abominable insensitivity.
so we remain new age groupies, all right, and what group are you with then? ES groupie? I suppose you claim to be more sensitive than I, and yet we are supposed to overlook your snide remarks about our founders? words such as new age, bogus, etc that you throw around, are you allowed to berate us with "truth" and we do not get the same privilege? Why did you pm me Don? why? I didn't invite you into my pm box. I was not wanting to be insensitive to mention the cancer that you seemed to want to keep hidden and only disclose it to Alysia. Why me? I was happy for you when you said it was in remission. yet it was logical to assume it was not in remission or you would have disclosed those feelings of celebration to all of us, not just me. and I loath to be holding a secret from this board and I don't choose to be your personal confidante, I am interested in the group consciousness and safeguarding what Monroe started and I see your presence here as threatening to those objectives. yet the more I read you, the less threat you appear to be. we are all one. there is nothing to be ashamed of if some of us struggle with an illness we want to help heal each other. we all desire your healing whether you can see that or not.


Don:  If I were dying and wanted to keep the gravity of my cancer private, what right do you have to try to increase my pain by "outing" me in that way?  Fortumtely, my blood tests have all been clean so far.   Perhaps that may change, in which case I would not give you the satisfaction of notification.D
if you want to keep something private you certainly came to the wrong person by pm-ing me. I am interested in this board's health overall, but I am glad to hear you are still working on this thing because as I see it, thats why we come to earth, to surmount our illnesses, by correct thinking and by taking responsibility for those misfortunes we earnestly want to shuck onto society for the blame. I am glad if you become completely healed and if you work on your emotions, your attitude, you will be free of any illnesses from then on. I think you need to confide in god, not me. if you surrender to god your problems, he will take care of you tenderly. you'll see, and you call yourself a man of god, I want to see your love don. I've not seen your love yet.  

thank you for riling us up...I still admire your fighting spirit. love, alysia

I don't have answers for any of you, nor do I wish to 'save' anyone.

These personal exchanges don't serve anyone here. They seem to justify behavior and firmly set stances. There's little of the fluidity of love in them that I can feel; otherwise there might be some dancing going on instead of this... whatever-it-is. You put a word to it.

I wish Alysia would walk in Don's shoes. I wish Don would walk in Alysia's shoes. Then I wish you both would walk around shoeless and feel the common ground underneath your bare feet.

It might be good to try and read your posts as-if another person's eyes were reading them, to try and see yourself as others might see you. Not for the purpose of judgement. But to get a slightly bigger picture than your own views.

It's strange to see two people I feel love for engage in a public exchange of defense and attack. You must want my input too. This is it.

Love, Tim F.

Crude Dude and Alysia,

Dude, I have repeatedly made it clear that your vulgar caricature of my problems with Monroe is incorrect and have specifed my few main objections.   Yet you continually create your sxaggerated version of my position, just as you do of ES's position.  You need to konw what you're talking about before mouthing off in such an insulting way.   Also, you wrongly accuse me of characterizing the attitudes of ALL New Agers on this site.  By the way, in real life I actually discourage people from reading Swedenborg.  But given the purpose of this site, I defend his most impressive findings because I believe we can even learn from those with whom we disagree.

Alysia, I am heartened today by a private message that informed me that a regular poster has quit the site specifically because of your tawdry behavior.   Right from my earliest post since my return, you udely told me I had "ruined" Swedenborg for you.  

Matthew, I am also disappointed in your mischaracterization of ES.  You claimed to have read through my ES thread in which I describe his soul retrievals and the loving instruction that awaits us on the other side.  Also, like recoverer, you betray a need for comfort above truth and, cnce again, underline your need to come to terms with falsification criteria.   Like you and recoverer, I am not pleased by the mutually reinforcing insights of Robert Bruce, Swedenborg, and NDEs like Dr. Ritchie's that our earth memories soon become dormant.   But I can't dismiss this and their verifications simply on the grounds that I'd prefer it to be otherwise.  Insread, I prefer to acknowledge the disconnet with more positive ADC claims and seek a way of reconciling the two astral perspectives.  And if you can't see why Alysia should apologize to me for her egregious violation, God help your bedside manner.  [She recently once again spurned my request for an apology in a PM.]

Obviously, this is a cult-like site in which an honest and open-ended search for the truth is not welcome.  Notice the pattern: I always try to be polite and affirming in my initial posts.  Then the insults of New Agers soon sabotage my posts with ad hominems.  When I point this out and defend myself, I am accused of "bullying" (Shame on you, Tim).  What this means is that you will be deprived of my research on possible ways of reconciling postmortem memory loss with ADCs and the possibility of retrievals.  It amazes me that no one here appreciates how the dormancy of earth memory might help explain why there are so few unequivocally convincing ADCs.  

Don

Berserk wrote on Dec 29^th, 2006 at 3:13pm:

C  Then the insults of New Agers soon sabotage my posts with ad hominems.usly, this is a cult-like site in which an honest and open-ended sear  When I point this out and defend myself, I am accused of "bullying" (Shame on you, Tim).  What this means is that you will be deprived of my research on possible ways of reconciling postmortem memory loss with ADCs and the possibility of retrievals.  It amazes me that no one here appreciates how the dormancy of earth memory might help explain why there are so few unequivocally convincing ADCs.   Don

Don,
      Re-read my post and look to see who I was quoting in it. I was quoting "the dude". That's who my comments were directed to, not you. It was the dude saying "it's just a joke" that I was responding to.

It's true, I just stepped in the middle of it here. Oh well. I like the middle.

Love, Tim F.

Don,

I, for one, don't want you to leave.  The term bullying, if you read it correctly was applied to OOB Dude who used the childish word "retard."  (Read Tim's post).

I read your conjecture on soul retrievals and Swedenborg, and was impressed at the depth of thought that went into it; still I think it may be open to debate as to what he would think of our common notion of retrievals.

I do want comfort, but am willing to examine the evidence.  This has led to some excellent discussions.  I did read Heaven and Hell based on these discussions, and am glad that I had the chance.

There must be a way to discuss, debate, share experiences and not get bogged down in the personal.  If someone like Tim or myself brings this up, please take it in a loving way, and by no means leave the forum.  

I suspect that you and I both know that the answers we seek are not to be found in controlled scientific studies.  However, allowing our rational minds to weigh the evidence may help us listen to our inner guidance.  With an intent  and desire to know God, to move closer to him/her, how can we fail?

Matthew

clipping from Don: Like you and recoverer, I am not pleased by the mutually reinforcing insights of Robert Bruce, Swedenborg, and NDEs like Dr. Ritchie's that our earth memories soon become dormant.   But I can't dismiss this and their verifications simply on the grounds that I'd prefer it to be otherwise.
_____

in the interests of pursuing this concept and to get away from mud slinging I would very much be pleased upon departure from this Earth to "forget" this life, even though it has been interesting, I look forward to further adventures. I have personal evidence we are loved an embraced and forgiven our debts on the other side by surrendering our will into the light.

Don, I know u want me to come right out again and divulge what you wrote to me recently in a pm. well, I will not! for then you would have further attack remarks to me and I'm not here for that nonsense. I would be pleased if you are going to pm me ever again, that you also respond back to me after I took two hours to give to you my thoughts, I received no acknowledgment whatsoever, except here.
I really am trying to get it together with you but I am giving up as I'm not able to. this is a job for god and his hierarchy of helpers. bless us all in our struggles...we could be discussing something else besides these grievances against one another.

I shall always believe when you die you go to heaven and you meet jesus and also your departed loved ones as well .i know i will see my dad when my time comes i,m onl;y frightened of the actual dying process but not after death has occured my dad will be there to take my hand and i know he will ,yes i believe their is a hell but only for murderers who have taken someones life on the earth plane i beleive everyone else goes to our lord in heaven ,i love god and i have my faith in him and while i have that i will be okay when i die  . love deanna

Hi I agree with Deanna i believe in love and that is all that is waiting for us in the spirit world and could you tell me what hominems mean.

I have never heard of this swedenborg fellow is he still alive or in the spirit world

Love and God bless     love juditha

Perhaps we should end this thread before someone gets hurt.  I started it not to cause a fight, simply to discuss some things about swedenbogus that I felt that with your(Berserks) great knowledge of him, you could possibly give some type of explanation for the questionable aspects of his work.  And of course, I felt the need to step up to the plate in Monroes defense because of the amount of respect I have for him and his work.  I admitt, I may have written some things that someone who worshiped Swedenburger may have taken to be offensive, but I did not think anyone here fit that discription.  I suppose this is not a place to have a sense of humor?  I in no way made this a personal issue.  It seems like noone can speak badly about swedenbag, or even question him, without it turning into a series of personal attacks... this I noticed the first time I read the first ten page post about him, and now it is again occuring here.  This man is no god, is he really worth all of this?  We all know the answer.

Hi Juditha and Deanna. I believe the same as you two. I believe that love is God. I believe we are safe in God's love at all times, in life and in death. I thank you for stating your beliefs here and namaste to you. I stand with you.

Swedenborg is from the 18th century. love, alysia

Hi aylsia thanks for telling me about swedenborg lived in 18th century as i had never heard of him.

And i stand with you as well that we are safe in Gods love at all times,in life and death and that love is God

Love and God bless you aylsia       Love Juditha

Your very welcome alysia we stand by you also god bless  love deanna

I Am Dude wrote on Dec 29^th, 2006 at 3:45pm:

Perhaps we should end this thread before someone gets hurt.  I started it not to cause a fight, simply to discuss some things about swedenbogus that I felt that with your(Berserks) great knowledge of him, you could possibly give some type of explanation for the questionable aspects of his work.  And of course, I felt the need to step up to the plate in Monroes defense because of the amount of respect I have for him and his work.  I admitt, I may have written some things that someone who worshiped Swedenburger may have taken to be offensive, but I did not think anyone here fit that discription.  I suppose this is not a place to have a sense of humor?  I in no way made this a personal issue.  It seems like noone can speak badly about swedenbag, or even question him, without it turning into a series of personal attacks... this I noticed the first time I read the first ten page post about him, and now it is again occuring here.  This man is no god, is he really worth all of this?  We all know the answer.

Humor is used within retrieval circumstances to disengage negative energy within the retrievee. its basically a tool both here and on the other side..the tool used to get the attention of the retrievee depends on what thought forms are within the retrievee which would respond to humor or another tool. The younger ones are more prone to be retrieved with humor I've noticed. They are not so ensconced within a tight belief system as the older ones who might be feeling the weight of their experiences.

All threads here and topics I have been told are of usefulness by spirit influences here, nonphysical helpers come to be trained right here on this board by such as our talk.
As well, on the other side, we lose our self image, and all secrets are revealed instantly, so we can all get used to being open books here, whether we perceive we have used humor wrongly, we can forgive if we are big enough to allow foregiveness to happen.
I find nothing wrong with your posts Dude. I believe you were sent here as each one who comes here the same. And Don is a part of our disc, or a neighboring disc. I see only that we all march towards greater awareness how easy it is to forgive each other and find that life, here and now, is the real celebration. we try to find our oneness. I'm sure it's there. I'll cast my eyes there and by doing that play my part.

I simply follow J, who forgave the ones who strung him high. I do not suppose ES would forgive me my trespasses like J would.

what a board...criminy...I do believe we need a breather. allow me to speak personally and I'll be grateful if other's feel the freedom to do so. I sense your kindness and appreciate it Dude. :)

Dude,

The title of this thread violates the posting guidelines of this forum; I suggest you change it or simply delete this thread, and post your comments to the ADC thread Don started.  (If so, Don, I would ask that you replicate your response on Swedenborg's three stages after death).  While somewhat humorous in a schoolboy kind of way, the use of the term "old retard," is juvenile and insulting - you and I both know this.  However, Dude, your response reflects a good understanding of the issues.  I share the horror at the idea that our minds could descend into a form of memory loss and lunacy, after we die.  It is Brendan/Chumley's worst nightmare on this board, and I must admit mine as well.  The universe, as we perceive it in the physical world seems to be governed by a divine order and, for lack of a better word - intelligence.  Hard to believe then that we could forget what we learned on earth or those who were loved in our family.  

I think it would help if Don clarified what percent of people Swedenborg believed to experience this memory loss and idiocy.  I know he believed in a balance, however I find it hard to believe that the vast majority or even 50% of us are bound for a hellish plane.  

When we dream, in general we have an awareness of self, but we are confronted with imagery, usually have no control of the situation and rarely can inject logic in the often seemingly nonsensical goings on.  If this were our state after death, (a dreamstate) I for one would be terrified.
*****************
-Well said, Doc (ALL of the above.)
Perhaps you DO understand then why I want - AND WANT VERY, VERY BADLY...
To cease to exist after I die, to enter oblivion. (Sorry for the times
that I treated you like a lunkhead...)
The thought of an eternity trapped in a willy-nilly, confused, idiotic and
defenseless dream-state makes me panicky, I have to drink sometimes
to get to sleep...
I wonder if there is a "spiritual" path, which focuses on committing
soul suicide? If I could maybe get the Hemi-Sync tapes, and learn
to explore the afterlife in order to find out how to destroy my soul
once and for all? (All Bruce mentions is a type of "permanent death"
which "recent explorations" have uncovered - but he doesn't go into
the details.)

B-man

Thing is Chum,

The negative mindless scenario is but one of many possibilities, and many other experiences documented refute the loss of memory scenario.  For me, the question is not how to train to annihilate my consciousness, but how to live in the here and now so that I may maintain my memories and intelligence in spirit.  

Initially, according to Swedenborg, we are privy to every memory of our earthly life - even those we may not remember hard as we try in the physical.  As our "masks" of outer concerns that we show to others every day on earth fall away, our inner concerns (what motivates us, drives us and makes us tick) become all the spirit concentrates on.  Thus, we may go from a state of total recall, to then become more involved in whatever our mind/heart really is all about, without much recall.  Even then, Swedenborg states that God lets us access moments of total memory of our earth life at times through divine grace.  

The other factor here, is help, assistance and instruction from loved ones, helpers....angels perhaps for lack of a better term.  If we led a good life, and tried to practice the golden rule and love of others and God, there is no source not Swendbarf I mean Swedenborg, not the bible, not any other reputable source that condemns us to memory loss, or lunacy.  


Matthew

My own personal belief is that all of creation, every iota, is preserved and indestructable. I think it may be entirely possible that  there is indeed a "hall of knowledge" which is a place where we can access everything......everything......everything, all of who we have been, all that others have been.  How we find that place may be different for each one of us. We may all take different streets, but we'll get there.

The idea that we lose our memories, etc. in the afterlife is not believable to me. For example, if I go on a hike in a beautiful wilderness area, or in a beautiful and orderly park, I might become so entranced or challenged by my surroundings that I "forget" everything else in my life for the moment. But don't I have a repository of the "rest" of myself available to me upon demand?

Why are we so afraid? There is not one moment in this life when we are not on the boat in the waves....and no matter how many calm moments we might sail through, when the waves get choppy again we are often consumed by fear....this fear, Jesus and many others, now and in the past,  tell us, is simply not necessary.  

All will be revealed in its own time and in its own place, and we are asked to be patient....and kind....and to be unafraid.  We are like the disciples in the boat, here on this board.

But it is inside of ourselves that we find the truth. That is where Love resides.  We can look for miracles....and sometimes find them....but this is a planet made for adventure, and I suspect it is also the same way when we leave this place. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

Chaos into order....and back again. That is the cycle of life, isn't it?  The chaos of our perceptions can BE order, perhaps, for all life forms, including those in the afterlife....

....so, why fear life, I ask you? Why fear life? It is what we are made for....

love, blink

 The idea that we lose our memories, etc. in the afterlife is not believable to me. For example, if I go on a hike in a beautiful wilderness area, or in a beautiful and orderly park, I might become so entranced or challenged by my surroundings that I "forget" everything else in my life for the moment. But don't I have a repository of the "rest" of myself available to me upon demand?  

That's how I see it, but you said it much more clearly than I would have.  Not that we lose our memories, so much, as that they don't pick at us.  They're there if we want to consider them, but they don't come around and give us guilty fits when we're trying to think of something else...

Greetings,
Juditha,
I looked up the word homonym in a dictionary. That spelling means when 2 or more words sound the same but have different meanings, like 'to' and 'two' or 'there' and 'their'.  I didn't read the original post tho', so I don't know how it was used there. (Do you have time to read all that stuff?!)

Regarding memories from C1 in the Afterlife, I wonder if we could get so comfortable in our concepts of C1 that we think we can make it all as we wish. We have only seen parts tho'.  When Monroe, Swedenbourg, or someone sends information back, they may be speaking about just the area/energy they are in at the moment. But then we apply it more broadly and therefore maybe  in error.
So if we check our memories in at the door, then we still have to pick some up when it comes time to plan our next life, right?  Sure, there's the collective memory pile to sort through with the Disk, but it seems like some of what we bring in is still our responsibility to deal with next time round.  How else would we keep meeting old friends, etc from former lives?  

Bets

Betson,

You should have looked up "ad hominem."  From the dictionary:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally argument against the person), involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. It is a logical fallacy. Some examples of it include include the personal attack, when a personal attack is used to discredit a specific claim or assertion, and the you-too argument.

It includes ad hominem abusive (argumentum ad personam), ad hominem circumstantial (ad hominem circumstantiae), ad hominem tu quoque...  It is often a logical fallacy.

It is somewhat disappointing that the juvenile play on Swedenborg's name has remained as the title to this thread.  I wonder if it were an ugly play on the name of an astral adept of more recent times, more near and dear to those on the board, if it would stand for so long.  Somehow, I don't think so.

I see two major issues with Don's dormant memory points (noted by Robert Bruce who battles negative spirits and has other interesting quirks, and Swedenborg - who does not come out and say that memory loss on the other side is inevitable for all of us).  

The first is that of free will.  There is no reason to suppose that our free will is stripped from us in death.  Thus, in concentrating on our inner selves (As Swedenborg calls it), we would have to willingly release our memories or feel they were unimportant.  

The second issue that contests the loss of memory of the deceased is that of love.  I find that all are in agreement that love is the true purpose of our existence.  For Swedenborg, the two most virtuous forms are love of God and love of thy neighbor.  Both are associated with "heaven," though love of God holds a special place in his mind.  In any event.  the voluntary loss of memory and sinking into a state of idiocy violates the love that we know the universe is based on.  We hear countless examples of NDEs and explorations where long deceased loved ones make contact to ease the suffering of their family or another.  To ES, this is done by divine grace (even if the soul had memory loss, they temporarily are allowed access to their old memories).  

Which brings me to the final counter evidence to spiritual memory loss.  That is the numerous reported cases of spiritual contact long after a person died.  I posted a very personal experience of my wife recently, who had a dream of a warning from her brother her died in his 30s more than five years ago, on another board.  I may reprint it here in the dreams forum.  It was perhaps the most recent most compelling example of a verified communication I have heard of recently.  I can cite many many references of spiritual contact which occurred many years after the physical death of a person.  

Many explorers encounter helpers, consciousness workers and angels constantly trying to help people on earth.  This too counters the memory loss theory advanced by Don.

In conclusion then, I would say that while voluntary memory loss is possible after death in those who concentrate on their inner selves and feel that earthly memories hold nothing for them, it is by no means universal and certainly not corroborated by reports of spiritual contact.


Matthew

Thanks Doc,

for the correction  and the clarifications.

On all but my original error, I agree with you.  :)

bets

Actually, if I was gonna stoop to ridiculing names, I'd do it like
this...
"I am (Sweden)BORG. Resistance is futile. Drop your mental
shields and prepare to be assimilated..."
From what I've read of "Heaven and Hell" by the Borgster, I
have seen a strong streak of authoritarianism... "accept what
I say on FAITH, don't try to explore for yourself, it is dangerous
and not for common schlubs like you."
Perhaps as a clergyman (a hierarchical profession if ever there
was one!) Don was drawn to (Sweden)Borg for this very reason
(self-exploration bordering on sorcerous arts, after all - that is,
unless you are some kind of "chosen one" like the Borgster.)
And indeed, Mr. (Sweden)Borg paints a picture of the afterlife
as similar to the Borg Collective... either be "assimilated" and lose
your free will and self-determination, or suffer unto all eternity!
(Heck, the Star Trek Borg couldn't TOUCH that one..!)
Was Mr. Borg right? I don't know, maybe he was.
But I hope he wasn't. In fact, I'd rather that Karl Marx, Joseph
Stalin, and Mao-Tse-Tung were right about the afterlife, than
our mutual friend Mr. (Sweden)Borg. At least I wouldn't be
spending the rest of eternity as somebody else's "property"...

B-commie

Now you're making sense again, Chumley.

betson

I woke up this morn overwhelmed with a crashing weight of rotes descending and i come here and Bets and Doc and Chumley are all bringing it together for me, so thanks!

then I feel doomed in the avalanche as I realize I am just emersed in endless words so will have to go with heart intelligence first and foremost. I'm just a grateful dog here. pet me and I'll drool on you. kick me and I'll just come back for more.

what we've got here on this board to my perception is evidence of a shift in consciousness as we bring old time religious concepts into alignment with a technology age.
There are so many fine books to read out there. Its impossible to get to all of them. I would indeed read the Borg if my intention were to study the man behind the book. Like I said everybody is a book, everybody is interesting, but I think my own head is full of interesting thoughts to the point that there is no conclusionary resting place except in contemplation of myself and my free will to choose what I will read and when.
I wish to read no one except these on this board. I could swim in your thoughts a couple of centuries and never come up for air.
Chumley, you have changed in my mind. I don't know if its because I have changed my perceptions of you, or if you have changed yourself. I would prefer to think you have gone through some major insights and are now surfacing from that to bring to us your thoughts which have remarkable bearing on the shift in consciousness now here.

Each of your thoughts makes us consider the opposite scenario. thats what you're supposed to do. You're absolutely right, in the old days, esoteric truths were purposely hidden from the general seeker after knowledge, the general thought of the day among those who considered themselves the elite and enlightened, was that a little knowledge iin the wrong hands could be quite dangerous therefore Moses (conjecturing) was given some commands for the rest of us running amuck so we'd have some guidelines

seems spirit was doing animals, oh, how awful the mixing of human and animal dna.
by the time Moses was given the commandments spirit had calmed down enough to stick to their own kind. however they were still coveting each other's mates, so we have the admonition "thou shall not commit adultery."

Look around you, we are in a duality polarized world and we still commit adultery and we still covet from our neighbor and justify it in the name we are free to do as we please and not take instruction from any books, new or old.

like I said any book at all is a good place to start reading if you've got the time to consider you may be reading about your own self as all of us are one.

Bets is my friend and yours. she always springs these big words on me and makes me wonder what they mean. ad hominen I never used before and now you whet my appetite. to and Two?  I see this as viewing points or interpretation.
this brings to mind perception is one thing, interpretation of the received perception is individualistic, then I return to Monroe's admonishment "there is no bad, there is no good." all just is.

Doc continues to be a balancing point for me; someone who weighs both sides of a question so we can stay afloat on the board, so the boat doesn't tip over. I surely need him and even obed to him once for a hug.

as for a spirit losing it's previous lives memories...I think we are in agreement here that that condition may occur, but only in a temporary sense. sort of like a process towards the light. We are not mere robots here programmed by our beliefs. We are also gods and goddessess. that is why I support the concept of doing retrievals and that without each others aid we are truly nothing at all, we will always be dependent upon each other to become more than we conceive of right now...we are always in a state of change. resistence is futile in that regard.
by surrendering to our nothingness we proceed to our somethingness.

Happy New Years Eve! 2007 has a feeling of excitement around it for me although I've never celebrated New Years Eve in any year, I think I may allow myself to celebrate this time. love, alysia