Alysia put it, " ah, enlightenment is coming, but first the laundry!" - And I began to wonder, why on earth she needed the put herself thjough the wash wringer again. Perhaps the key is to understand enlightenment. For this purpose I'm going to propose and extremely unpopular definition of enlightenment. Hopefully not too many people will get ticked off at me. I have reached this conclusion after close to 50 years of relatively strenuous effort at yoga, Buddhist practice, meditation, study, theoretical analysis and spiritual practice with spiritual studies such as past life regression. Thus, I write as a scholar and student.

I claim, "Enlightenment is psycho-spiritual maturity, a normal phase of human growth."

That's it. Most of the people on this site have reached that level, more or less. There is not single point at which we throw up our hands and shout "Eureka!", after which we can walk on water or fly through the air. (We can do that anyway - wait for winter, or buy an airplane.) Instead, enlightenment is a bit like puberty, it begins with a distinct change, Buddhists call this "turning about in the seat of consciousness", after which we regard the world and ourselves as essentially a single system. It is the end of what Ramana Maharshi might have termed the search for the "self" turns into discovery of the "Self".

There are many levels and degrees of enlightenment. If you read classical Buddhist literature you'll discover umpteen different levels. These are characterized by the degee to which we have abandoned materiality as the prime definition of reality, and have adopted a transcendental definition that includes clear awareness of the nature of our true nature as elements of a single, universally all-encompassing, spiritual reality; the nature of cause and effect (karma); and the value of living a moral and ethical life for the simple reason that this is a better way to do things.

There are typically three levels of experiences involved. The first ios the OhMyGod! experience in which we see the nature of reality for an instant and realize that it's all true - there's an infinity of transcendental reality out there that we p[reviously had overlooked. The next is the level of sarvastarka samadhi, in which we discover that everything is one thing, and all their seeming contradictions are actually the mechanisms by which all the stuff works. The third level is the level of nirvastarka samadhi in which we recognize that the entire complexity of everything is simply One, and that that One is essentially self-originated out of nothing. The specifics of these experiences are individual, but the content is roughly the same for all.

Now - stop and think of all the people who are on this forum. Notice how many of them recognize that everything is One. Welcome to the world in which your neighbors are "enlightened beings". There is no purple smoke, no fireworks, nobody grows a second head or extra sets of arms. In fact, to the degree that you understanbd these ideas, you too, whoever
you might be, are part of the enlightened world.

The idea of enlightenment has been held out as an impossible goal, a target requiring eons to reach, an impossible journey into the inner self, a cruise into danger that requires a skillful (and expensive) guru to save you from the psychic crocodiles etc. This is spiritual dysinformation best  suited for selling soap and maintaining the coffers of the monasteries of the world. Regrettably, it has also hidden the truth. The fact is that the experiences of a normal life will bring the opportunity for enlightenment to everyone who has not blocked them by immorality. (Because immorality generates experiences that have a self-destructive nature.)

One might ask, "How do enlightened people look? What do they do after enlightenment?" Thye answer is very simple, they look like everyone else, and they work in some area of service to others. The Bodhisattvic Vow (roughly quoted) is an example, "So long as time and space remain I shall not accept the final nirvana, but will return to help others and to relieve their suffering." The "final nirvana" simply means absorption back intro the nature of God.

Let's look at examples - I suggest that Bruce Moen is a good example of a very typically enlightened person who simply followed the natural pathway of personal growth. After discovering his own perspective of "inner space", complete with Snidely Whiplash and a few other characters, he set out to serve those who need his help. His various books are excellent guides, and his kindness in providing this forum is a typical example of serving others to assist in dispelling their ignorance and reducing their suffering. Thus, he qualifies as a "bodhisattva" (which probably doesn't mean much to him, because it's just a name).

I've personally been watching Juditha blossom into a psychic. This is a more common example. And many others are expressing similar growth and experiences, including a number of those who drop in for a moment and then move on. I'm tempted to try to name people, but there are simply too many (and my memory is less than perfect). We also have a few who are hovering on the edge of actually believing in their experiences and allowing them to expand into a new vision of the world. They are typically hung up on the conflict between the demands of the material world and those of the spiritual world. These normally are dispelled as soon as the material definitions are released, which is a natural growth experience.

There is a vast amount of spiritual freight associated with spiritual growth, such as worship of the guru etc. This is possibly appropriate in an ashram where the guru radiates bliss on seekers as a means of accelerating their growth. And there are also many gurus who depend upon students to bring their supply of ganja, and who talk with them on a level of equality. The shaman in the Brazilian jungle with his cohoba snuff and a definition of spiritual existence that uses metaphors of animal spirits, the VooDoo or Ombandha practitioner whose spiritual practices involve a pantheon of spiritual friends and assistants who mount and ride celebrants are no less enlightened. Some reviewers state that because the terms of expression of inner experiences differ, then the practitioners of these different methods must also differ. That's the materiual definition. In fact, after tossing out the noise, we find the world filled with a great number of enlightened people, and all their experiences ultimately boil down to a very few basic principles. For all, there is only One, but it is viewed in as many ways as their are viewpoints. The un-enlightened focus on differentiation. The enlightened focus on oneness. No big deal.

Unfortunately, social customs and usages have prevented many others from understanding the enlightenment process, and have left them embroiled in material endeavors based on conflict. These people need our help. Watching the Amish response to the murder of their children, forgiveness and loving kindness, seems to be in the right direction as an alternative. Perhaps one day we'll even see that attitude generalized to the international scene.

I salute the God within you-
dave

Hi Dave I salute the God in you as well,and thanks for those encourageing words,that i am bloosiming into a physic,as my confidence in myself is almost non existant sometimes.And your right Dave we are all as one.I have learnt so much on here from you and the others and i thank you and all for this.

Love and God bless you Dave  Juditha

Nice topic Dave,

For me there is a key distinction here to be made between the rational understanding of unity/love and the "knowing and perceiving" of these concepts.  I would venture to say that by the use of concepts and rational understanding, many on this board would be considered enlightened.

My own definition of enlightenment is that of constant effortless perception and the feeling of the unity of all things and love.  This does entail getting rid of the concepts of dualism, materialism, us vs. them, hatred, and selfishness, along with the cultivation of forgiveness, humility and grace.  I know very few people who I consider to have reached this level, but it is a level that I think we can aspire to reach.

How many on this board could talk of PUL and how all things are one, and all are a manifestation of God, yet if faced with their own immediate demise, would many of us be so sure?  As Shakespeare said: "thus conscience doth make cowards of us all."  Aye, there's the rub.  The enlightened soul would, in my opinion have the inner conviction and pure perception of unity and love so that when faced with death, he/she would not cling to the material world.  This is rare, though we see it come in the most amazing ways.

Take the Amish school shootings you brought up.  One older child calmly told the psychopath to kill her first, but spare the younger girls.  She was one of the five who was killed.  Heroism?  Most certainly.  A tragedy?  Most definitely.  But what a perception and conviction this little young one must have had, to sacrifice herself that way.  Her belief in God and service to others was unquestionable in the most dire of circumstances.  

Your heading suggests that many people set enlightenment out as an unreachable goal (To dream the impossible dream a la Don Quixote).  I understand why it seems that way.  To me, I see the path as a continuous work in progress.  If I can, later on, achieve a constant but effortless state of inner knowing of unity and love, along with a clear perception of things, then I may feel I have achieved what I set out to in this earth school.  Until that time, I will struggle with Maya (the illusion of separateness of the physical world into individualities), dualism, relationships until my rational understanding becomes an inner knowing.

Best to you, my friend.

Matthew

my perception of 'enlightenment' was always something akin to Carlos castaneda's description of reaching the 'Second Attention', or dreaming awake.  Or maybe its what people consider to be the feeling of Kundalini?  
I always kind of liked the thought that enlightenment was a feeling that clicked in and suddenly made you think .. " oh yeah, now I get it" lol.
The problem with a gradual progression of slow enlightenment, as suggested, is that you never really know that you've attained it.  At least when something clicks into place you feel it, bigtime.
I've can get into a state of dreaming awake using the process of cutting off the thoughts. Has anyone else experienced this?

Dave:

I have visited many other sights; it appears that many claim to have the "secret" to becoming enlightened. This secret could be yours and mine; if we pay $59.99 for the first installment we can reach aspirant level, for another 60 bucks we can move onto becoming a deciple, then add a another hundred and we can be initiates.........eventually we can move onto becoming masters if we don't go bankrupt in the process.

Everyone has the magic formula. We can become Immortals and walk on water like Jesus did if we follow this perscription and chant this mantra and only this mantra. I beleive Dave was saying that we overcomplicate things when it is really quite simple. There is no one-size-fits all method to reaching enlightment. It is not a linear process. Like Matthew says: it's a continuous work in progress. It's about being humble, self-aware, its about humility, and honesty,truth,compassion,it's about love and light. PUL is not just a catchy-new-age phrase; it's a state of mind and a way of life. We can intellectualize these matters and read all of the books, know all of the right names etc,etc. But all of these facts are useless unless we practice what we preach. We should practise and honour the knowledge and integrate it into our very being. It is very challenging. I have become a drag to be around sometimes. I think too much. I am constantly aware of my inner process. Maybe I am a baby taking my first steps in the journey of spirituality. There is no destination. No end to it, its a continious way of life. Perhaps when I am a toddler I will be able to lighten up and feel at peace with everything. There are also different stages one goes through while trying to "seek enlightenment". I am going through this annoying phase of trying to enlighten others who are "asleep". I am so exstatic about my new found knowledge that I want to share it  with the world. But not everyone is ready for that, I have to learn to keep my mouth shut and realize that its my inner knowing that matters, nothing else. It's my process, we each have our own path. Ideally I want to  live by silent example.

BD

Thanks Baby Duck-
You said it better than I did.
The only "deep concept" is that it isn't "rational understanding" but "participatory awareness" - and that part goes "click" when you suddenly get into spiritual space. That's why soul retrievals are so useful to US - as well as for the stuck souls. Then it's back to growing again - but from a fully mature perspective, as opposed to a limited material abd rational approach.
PUL
dave

hi all, great thread Dave, my cup of tea :) can't add much to all the great thoughts here but love starting my day off here. and I like catchey little sayings which express our duality world going into the oneness part or the balance part. Enlightenment, but first the laundry deals with the practical side of enlightenment to the way I view it, so I'm doing a take from that. I'm reminded of a potent dream regarding my washing of clothes I'd like to share later. :)
but first heres a few of those sayings I enjoyed yesterday which express for me anyway how humorous it is to live here. I think I have become a collector of such sayings!
*Going to a church doesn't make you a Christian(fill in the affiliation)  any more
than standing in a garage makes you a car.

* It isn't the jeans that make your butt look fat.

*Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

*My idea of housework is to sweep the room with a glance.

* Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

*It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.

* For every action, there is an equal & opposite government program.

*If you look like your passport picture, you probably need the trip.

*Bills travel through the mail at twice the speed of checks

*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel good.
* Eat well, stay fit, die anyway. (Just remember how
lucky you were to get a free trip around the sun.)

*Men are from earth. Women are from earth. Deal with it.
*No man has ever been shot while doing the dishes.
*A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand.
*Middle age is when broadness of the mind &
narrowness of the waist change places.
*Opportunities always look bigger going than coming.
* Junk is something you've kept for years &
throw away three weeks before you need it.
* Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you
to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

*Thou shall not weigh more than thy refrigerator.
*If you must choose between two evils,
chose the one that you've never tried before.

_______

just prior to the dream I had decided to become a writer but I had to bake up some ideas in the oven of the mind. all day long I wondered what to write. I knew I could string words together, but thats not to say there would be any content worth reading. so one night I dreamed my house was empty of furniture. I was to prepare it for one who would come and help me, by renting my house. I was cleaning it up. I had gotten ride of everything in the house so it would not be cluttered with personality of my own tastes, so that this tenant who would come, so she could make it her own.  I was depicted as moving from this house into the house next door. I had one last load of wash in the washer when the tenant showed up. I told her "you're early!" I'm not through washing my last load, is that ok?" I promise to get out of your hair soon and it will just take a half hour or so...I apologized for the delay.  this tenant who came didn't mind the load washing at all. she just stood there smiling, pleased as punch with my empty house which had an open layout.
as I babbled on about my clothes washing she fixed a look at me and said "you don't know who I am, do you?"  I did a duh moment in the dream. she produced a list of authors and book titles and pointed to her name on a list. its hard to read in dreams I think we've all discovered that but later I remembered her name. she said I'm going to help you write a book as I now live in your house and I am pleased with the emptiness of it. first off she said, I am going to remove the wheelbarrow of flowers decorating the driveway. "OH NO!" I said, do u have to? Later I knew why. as I started to write I saw I had distractions in the book which took away from the expansiveness of the mood I wanted in it.
This lady writer has been my guide I feel throughout the process although I have never read her books, I plan to. we all can ask for guides and I'm a firm believer in relying upon each other to get something done. and she knew somehow I needed help pretty bad! her name was Ayn Rand.  always disliked politics..and thought that was what she was all about. still don't know what she was about, like I said, I have to read her someday. but heres the strange thing which caused me to feel I got her name right...when I went to her website the picture of her face leaped out and I knew that I knew her, that it was the lady in the dream. and I've been washing my clothes ever since that dream...lol...... :P

Dave:

I agree with the point you are making. We are already divine beings/parts of God, and all we have to do is be the best "part" we can be.

I first had an experience where I realized that I wasn't the body based person I took myself to be about 25 years. I just knew that I was the spirit that witnesses my body based life. Yet here I am 25 years later and imperfections still exist.

Rather than seek after an all or nothing enlightenment experience, it is better that a person simply accepts that they are divine and learn to live according to love as best as possible.

A number of people have reported that they quite naturally returned to their divinity during near death experiences. In a way, physical existence is supposed to make things seem heavier. Unless you get stuck in some really confused state of mind when you die, it is natural to return to your divinity when you cross over.  

Ha, ha, ha, funny Alysia!  ;D :D

Alysia - you made my morning! I fully intend to quote you to everyone I know! I'm still chuckling!

As far as I can tell, something happens in everyone's life that offers to open the door to spiritual maturity, much like that process that makes us all go bonkers at age 13 or so, after which we go through the door into a vaster world, or stay stuck in materiality. It all seems so terribly important to do - until someone like you comes along with a load of humor that puts it all back in perspective.

Love ya-
dave

Dave, thanks for your post!

No purple smoke? hmm. As electro sonic said, these MOMENTS of enlightenment, markers, feasts of the gained, I'll miss them. But, I guess it's not that way like the stereotypic parent's saying "When will you ever be mature?!" which seems to mean go and be bored and boring lol!

I wonder if becoming mature/enlightened is like what people sometimes say, when people become really old they become children again, but here more focusing on what children canNOT do, while enlightenment-maturity maybe is to become children again, in the meaning what children all CAN do?

Then in maturity there is this element one can call "settled". That there is a point in life you start feeling you know how it all works in general, and the details aren't the main thing, they just happen and you can focus on it without thinking of the "what's behind". You've got a "place", like a comfortable seat, and no one can throw you out of it. "Peace of mind", "calmness", "stability", "serenity", that's all relating to that. But how easy is it to have a comfortable seat in a short-lasting belief system? There has to be something additional, the three steps Dave mentioned, the feeling that this knowing comes from deeply within, independent from what you've heard how it "should" be- paradoxically it seems to me this oneness certainty makes you independent of your neighbour (as enlightened the neighbour may be) so that it seems you become more distanced to others rather than melting with them into the oneness. The paradox can be avoided when considering maya: You become independent of the maya life stage, so you can look at yourself and others how they're entangled in the connecting web of maya from a viewpoint of oneness.

There is an interesting thing, looking at the topic from a sort of meta-position, isn't it strange that some people consider enlightenment, are drawn to it, decide to put some effort in it, and others say that this is just nonsense for weirdos and nothing but a meaningless word? Following Daves description, it seems when someone decides to think that enlightenment may be a good thing to reach, then this someone is already enlightened? Because the basic step is done.

But I would still like some purple smoke (or white glowing) and levitation and such...or maybe some jokes about it Alysia?


Spooky

Spooky says:  :)Following Daves description, it seems when someone decides to think that enlightenment may be a good thing to reach, then this someone is already enlightened? Because the basic step is done.

But I would still like some purple smoke (or white glowing) and levitation and such...or maybe some jokes about it Alysia?
___
I don't need much encouragement dear heart :)  somebody tell me about the purple smoke, as theres always a fire where the smoke is.

heres what enllightenment is partially to me: when I can look back and see that my buttons were pushed and I reacted and now the same buttons get pushed and instead of reacting I just grin. and enlightenment is when you don't wanna change anybody anymore to help them be enlightened like u are, because u suddenly realized that they are fine just the way they are, like u r fine the way that u may buzz whether u can claim to be enlightened or not.
also more partial enlightenment: when your brother says give me that item and you want that item but you give it to them if your intuition says they need it worse than you. then life comes along and gives it back to you from unexpected sources, the thing you gave away in love that u missed owning.

one thing I learned from A Course in Miracles was about small miracles, although the Course says there's no such thing as a small or large miracle as it's either a miracle or its not, like can't be a little bit pregnant. but what it said resonated with me deeply as it basically said god don't make junk. let me put that another way to say it said we were all under a heavy load of guilt. We all went around saying we were not perfect because we are humans and humans are  imperfect creatures. that would be like false humility. It said we have never left the heart of god but remain here in flesh within a dream of reality. so imperfections that we note about ourselves are like belief system outer garments, or karma we chose.

so I asked god one day, what am I doing here then? the course said don't worry about it as god will take the final step for me. I believe the course was talking about grace being the final step.  it was another way of saying I was to learn trust and patience in this final step procedure. it was then I started to be full of mirth and to my daughters and a few people, they think I'm a bit looney tunes to be in good spirits awaiting the final step of grace. I enjoy getting weird looks these days as its like having a secret. I learned I was making up my life whenever I accepted that I had karma. when I said I don't have karma, I didn't have karma anymore as I didn't owe anybody anything and strangely enough nobody owed me anything, so that meant I could give anything I had to others for free without expecting a return and thats a good feeling, not to have to get it back or need it back.

anyhoo, all of us are fine..we don't need enlightenment..we just need to love each other the way god loves us, just as we are, no matter what beliefs we cherish.
now I don't know what god is..but my best definition to date is god is a wave crashing on the shore and you and I are drops of it.

http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

Well put Chuckles.

By the way... I like your depiction of God being a wave and us being drops of it. It's kind of like dipping your finger into a glass of water, pulling it out, and saying, "Here I am." "I am a water droplet of the glass; I will stay here 'till I evaporate, but I will always remain of the water from which I came."

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Alysia:

thank-you for helping me to keep things in perspective.

It makes so much sense to me. Especially the following:

"heres what enllightenment is partially to me: when I can look back and see that my buttons were pushed and I reacted and now the same buttons get pushed and instead of reacting I just grin. and enlightenment is when you don't wanna change anybody anymore to help them be enlightened like u are, because u suddenly realized that they are fine just the way they are, like u r fine the way that u may buzz whether u can claim to be enlightened or not.
also more partial enlightenment: when your brother says give me that item and you want that item but you give it to them if your intuition says they need it worse than you. then life comes along and gives it back to you from unexpected sources, the thing you gave away in love that u missed owning."

It is so true, no need to preach, acceptance of each individual as they are, just as we are fine just as we are. ( I keep trying to remind myself that essentially, in big picture, we are all just one being. It is still quite a concept to grasp!). Give to your fellow man in need and don't be so reactive, just smile. Above all, have a good sense of humor!

This should all be so obvious to me, but I can make things unnessarily complicated. Love, learn, live, have fun, then shut up and go home.

Oh, I really want to take "The course in Miracles". It sounds like a program that could really be very beneficial.

Thanks again,

Baby_Duck

spooky2 wrote on Oct 9^th, 2006 at 10:37pm:

Dave, thanks for your post! There is an interesting thing, looking at the topic from a sort of meta-position, isn't it strange that some people consider enlightenment, are drawn to it, decide to put some effort in it, and others say that this is just nonsense for weirdos and nothing but a meaningless word? Following Daves description, it seems when someone decides to think that enlightenment may be a good thing to reach, then this someone is already enlightened? Because the basic step is done. Spooky

This is a very interesting point, in a generic sense we can almost lump people into two catagories ... those that think enlightenment comes with a bang, and those that think it gathers slowly like a dripping tap.

Personally enlightenment always aroused visions of someone suddenly getting it and going 'oh yeah'.  And then never being the same again.
But in saying that how many people around are a testimony to this?

Personally enlightenment always aroused visions of someone suddenly getting it and going 'oh yeah'.  And then never being the same again.
But in saying that how many people around are a testimony to this?
____

this statement above made me smile as I thought of something..bong! I looked for couples all my life as an example if they were in love, or why they stayed together if they weren't. I decided these couples were out there, the ones who were really in love and stayed in love and I thought this must be what enlightenment is, to be and stay in love no matter what the obstacles. but I did not find too many examples, just a few maybes and some potentials.  but they must be there in the world somewhere. so I considered why can't I find them? I think for this reason: they are enjoying their matrimony so much they don't have any time to announce it or they don't need to announce it..they are too busy loving and taking care of each other, making happiness. ACIM says love is "to make happy."
or maybe they are enjoying the rewards of having worked hard on their own selves before having a successful relationship that lasted: or 3rd conjecture: we all have different paths we chose and there is nothing wrong with being a happy single person. theres nothing wrong with any of it if we have eternity to have experiences in and we appreciate each experience just for what it is.

yes, I see enlightenment as loving, unconditionally, or accepting what is in front of you as not wrong but a thing which can be leavened with PUL and love is a healing thing also; it heals the separation illusions that we are separate, when we share the commonality of surviving here in so many ways. and lets face it :) we are mortal in the body and immortal in spirit realm.
BabyDuck, ACIM, a course in miracles is a self study set of 3 books, a text, a workbook of affirmations and a teachers manual. it basically says we must remove the blocks to the awareness of love's presence, which mean we have so many belief systems which can be like blocks to what we really are inside.
and I like the contributions you have made here. I think you are a beautiful soul, and come to think of it, I think I am too! ;D  all of you, if I think I'm something dandy, then I tend to think you all are something dandy! wow! thats easy.

love to all, alysia

The idea that I'm trying to make is not so much that we nedd to make a decision and be done, as Spooky suggested, but that we nedd to open up by relaxing away the materiality of the world until an experience that there is "something more" occurs. That part requires a decision, but also requires us to accept participation, if only for a moment, in spirituality that extends beyond us. At the instant that we experience the spiritual reality, we've passed the point that "enlightenment switches on".  After that it's a matter of degree - which is why it seems to me to be similar to puberty - it switches on when we're kinda young and confused, but we learn what's actually happening somewhat later. In much the same way, we have a spiritual experience, and then we grow forward from it.

This is not somethng that can be reached by "thinking about it", although that may be useful in integrating the experience. It must be experienced, participated in, an activity that brings our insides to the outside spiritual world, because that changes our relationship to "Ultimate Reality", which is to say, the way we relate to God.

Traditionally one gets there by meditation, but past life regression, soul retrieval, spontaneous mediumship, hypnotic methods to visit the "spirit world" etc, and all the other means of developing spirituality are equal, including the use of meditative aids such as ganja (although this is dangerous). Afterwards, it's a matter of how we use the experience and how far we want to carry that aspect of our lives, all the way to complete absorption in God. There are a few experiential landmarks along the way, but they reinforce what has already been learned by the initial experience.

Anyway, my main specific point is that if one can do a soul retrieval, or other spiritual activity, even just one time, that's about all that's needed. After that, it's more of a matter of living well and not stumbling over our own feet. In particular, this is NOT an arcane idea that requires lifetimes to attain, and then only at great cost and suffering. In fact, it's darned easy! As just one option, Bruce's book 5 gves soul retrieval training. He also has a batch of articles etc. And there's lots of other folks out there who do hypnotic work with spiritual tricks and such.

The other point is that this is a normal part of growing up. If you are not yet spiritually aware, then you simply have not as yet fulfilled your potential. That's OK, it comes naturally if you allow it. But you can accelerate the process by intentionally involvinbg in activities that bring the personal experience of spiritual awareness. Maybe someday everyone will have spiritual maturity.

dave