On U.K. tv last night was a most interesting programme, Kill Me To Cure Me, about a 28 year old American man who had a potentially fatal brain aneurysm. The surgeon, Dr Robert Spetzler, used a technique whereby the body temperature was reduced from it`s normal 39.9 degrees C to 12 degrees C before carrying out the repair operation.
At this low temperature his body was clinically dead. There was no activity on the monitors whatsoever. His heart had stopped, there was no pulse or blood circulation, no breathing and no signs of electrical activity in his brain. The actual operation took seventeen minutes but the patient was in this "dead" state for an hour before his blood was reheated and he slowly made a full recovery with all faculties intact.
Dr Spetzler developed this technique after hearing about a young Swedish woman who had been trapped in freezing cold water under ice for about six hours, but could breathe until her heart had stopped. When recovered from under the ice she was clinically dead but after many long hours of resuscitation she gradually came back to life. In her case, however, it took a long time for her to make a full recovery.

During the programme the point was raised about the consciousness. What had happened to it and where did it go during this time? After all, the body was clinically dead and yet it returned. The surgeon stated that the only thing different in this clinical "death" and any other was the factor of temperature.

A woman who had undergone a similar experience said she had an OBE during her operation. She flew out of her body, heard them say "We have a problem", looked down on it then started to fly towards a small very bright tunnel of light during which time she saw her grandmother and was told she had to go back. Her diving re-entry back into her body was, apparently, a very painful experience. The man featured in the programme did not mention whether a similar thing had happened to him.

It did make me wonder as to why she should experience an OBE and others had not, or is it that they just could not remember? They had been equally as "dead".  Also, the consciousness is obviously much more complex than one may realise.

roger  ;)

Hi Roger,

Why do we forget most dreams at night, but remember some?  Our conscious/subconscious is constantly in process.  I think if you knew you would be in a deep-freeze, and set intent to remember, it might help, as it usually does for me with remembering dreams.

Either consciousness is primary, or is only dependent on physiology and brain function.  If primary, as many spiritual people believe, then it does not "shut off," if the body is cooled or the heart temporarily stops.  


Matthew

Matthew,

You say, "Either consciousness is primary, or is only dependent on physiology and brain function.  If primary, as many spiritual people believe, then it does not "shut off," if the body is cooled or the heart temporarily stops." I do not disagree with that.

So, at what stage and under what conditions, do you think, the spirit would actually leave the body under either of your two options, whereby it is finally and totally dead, bearing in mind it is already clinically dead?

roger  :-/

Roger,

I can't pretend to know that answer with certainty.  The body is, in my opinion a created vehicle under the control of our consciousness that we use in the physical plane.  I'm not sure that consciousness is coming in our out of it; more that consciousness always exists in another plane of thought, but that this vehicle allows us to interact in a common environment and learn from each other.  

The ties between the vehicle of our earthly body and our mind and triggers are likely different for different people.  Some hold on to their earthly bodies when all hope is lost.  Others, have OOBE and "see a light and tunnel," when they fall of a bike and hit their head, and are not under any true physical risk of dying.  My brother was hit on his bike when he was 15 and thrown, without a severe injury at all.  He had a classic OOBE.  He "saw," the top of the ambulance and described the letters painted on it (he could not have possibly known).  He saw the neighbors gathered around his unconscious body as he floated around the scene.  He then "came to," in the ambulance.  He was not particularly religious or mystically oriented.  He said that "vision" and OOBE was the clearest visual experience with the most tranquil peace he had ever known.

For him then, getting knocked out by a sudden trauma, eventhough not life threatening was enough to separate.  For others, I have seen as a doctor, the consciousness persists long after there is any hope of an earthly cure.  

M

Hey Roger and Matthew,

I have nothing to base my opinions on but would like to share them. I agree with the dream remembering side but think that also includes beliefs.

A christian for example could see God and see gates? maybe at the end of the tunnel. Someone who strongly denies any form of life after death may just wake up without remembering anything, even if they had an OBE they could subconciously hide it away.

I think it could be guided by the other side as well. Some have had life changing OBE's which have changed their course/path in life (maybe they needed this, it was set up?). Others havent remembered a thing (maybe it would be disruptive to their lessons in this life?)

Just a couple of thoughts I have about this area.

Ryan

Ryan!  

You were missed.  Was driving today listening to the RHCP, thinking would a good soound they had.  Then I thought;  whatever happened to Ryan?  Did he give up on this forum or is he taking a break?  


Matthew

Cool to see Red Hot Chili Pepper fans on the Afterlife Knowledge forums of all places.  I've collected all the albums since 'Blood Sugar Sex Magik'.

'Shallow Be Thy Game' from One Hot Minute is one of my favourite tracks of theirs with its attack on priesthood.

Chorus:

You’ll never burn me
You’ll never burn me
I’ll be your heretic
You can’t contain me
I am the power free
Truth belongs to everybody

Hi I think sometimes when someone has an obe or nde,they dont let on.My father dropped dead in hospital and he was brought back with ressucitation,his Doctor asked him what it was like on the other side,meaning the afterlife and Dad just said he did not know,he never would tell me and Deanna what he experienced,while he was dead ,but after he finally died ,our mother told us,that he had an nde,he told her about it,where he came out of his body and saw this brilliant light,and he was floating towards it and felt so at peace .Then he suddenly was back in his body.So i dont think they always tell. love ands God bless you  Juditha

Greetings Juditha... With regard to nde's, my father was the same way after he had had his. He didn't really tell anybody about it until much much later, and even then I feel he has kept much of it to himself. I just know that his experience with the Light was beyond anything we can describe with human words; maybe this is the reason he has kept it to himself. It would be like trying to describe the fragrance of a perfume to somebody that doesn't have a sense of smell.

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Juditha:

It's curious that your dad didn't share this with you. Seems like a nice experience to share.




wrote on Sep 27^th, 2006 at 1:50pm:

Hi I think sometimes when someone has an obe or nde,they dont let on.My father dropped dead in hospital and he was brought back with ressucitation,his Doctor asked him what it was like on the other side,meaning the afterlife and Dad just said he did not know,he never would tell me and Deanna what he experienced,while he was dead ,but after he finally died ,our mother told us,that he had an nde,he told her about it,where he came out of his body and saw this brilliant light,and he was floating towards it and felt so at peace .Then he suddenly was back in his body.So i dont think they always tell. love ands God bless you  Juditha

Hi Recoverer Dad was a very inward person,he kept things to himself all the time,even when he was in pain,he would never tell me and Deanna or our brother either.He was one of six children and he was brought up not to show any weakness of himself at all and also taught by his father ,that it was wrong for him to cry as it was not a manly thing to do,I never saw my father cry,only once when i was five years old and he was looking after me Deanna and our brother as mum was at work,he sat there in silence and the tears were just falling down his face.I remember it hurt to see him cry and i just asked him why he was crying and even then he just said ,he was not crying ,he just had a cold,but as little as i was i knew he had lied.
But Dad always encouraged us to show our feelings and brought us up the way ,i think he wished he had been, allowed to show his feelings,thats why he did not tell us,only mum,he always only ever told mum,but then he would tell mum not to tell us.
Love and God bless you Juditha