Hi i was watching the documentaries last week called WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ,it spoke of the revelations paticurly about the beast ,whosoever wears the beasts mark 666 on their forhead will perish and will be left to face the consequences when the end of the world comes ,those who do not wear the mark of the beast and who believe in god will be saved just before the end comes ,in the sky will be swirling clouds going round in a circle this is called the rapture and this rapture takes all the souls what believe in god up to heaven to save them  ,then after that their will be a new earth all the former things will have passed away and all will be love and harmony for all . love deanna god bless

Hi Deanna This is certainly ,something to think about,there is something coming along,I can feel it ,and it could be this. The world cant stay like it is forever,it will change,this will happen in time.The revalations are there for a reason,to show us,so we know whats coming.Love and God bless you Juditha

Hi Deanna and Juditha,

I've always found that the concept of the rapture is based upon very flimsy interpretations of various passages that are being taken out of context.  Interestingly enough, those that promulagate the rapture never take into account St. Paul's writing about how those that died will be resurrected and brought up before those who would be living on the last day.  In truth, if you do some research yourself, you will also find that there is not a strong biblical basis for the concept of the rapture.  In fact, it did not even manifest as a theory until the 19th century.  

It still makes for a good story though!  Tim Lahaye has made a small fortune out of it!  LOL

You are right, newwayknight..

Another thing to keep in mind is that that belief states only Christians will be saved.  Anyone who does not "believe in Jesus" is hellbound.

Revelation is an ancient book, written in a tumultuous time.  The times of Roman emporers.  Most likely the "beast" was Nero himself.  If it was ever a prophecy, it was fullfilled long ago.  Remember..it is said that Jesus said he was "returning soon".  I don't think over 2000 years is "soon", thereby making it either false or completed.

Its a very narrow view of the world.  One that I came out of, thankfully, as it was destroying my very spirit and soul.

Do I believe changes are coming?  Emphatically, YES!  There is an ascension of many..and many are aware of this.  Those who are, are deemed heretic by the fundmentalist Christians who believe the rapture is going to take place and all the "evil" will then be punished for eternity in flames and brimstone.

My own explorations of the afterlife show that this is not the case.  I've seen the unbeliever not in a fiery hell..but in a wonderful place in the spirit world.  That in itself contradicts what the bible says will occur.

Spirit is love..not causing destruction to its brother and sisters here on Earth..

I think i also saw the same documentary Juditha, the video shows two people and all of a sudden the one person vanishes and the one person is left.  I'd like to agree with you Stephen.  It is so unfortunate that politics took over the fundamental teachings of the Bible and turned the hearts of people from it (which was the intention of the politicians in the first place)

Quote Stephen:
"St. Paul's writing about how those that died will be resurrected and brought up before those who would be living on the last day"

This is a passage that is hardly spoken about; it does suggest that people who have passed over are in a waiting / transit period before the 'last day'.

I do sometimes think that people who have passed on, although have more clarity then us in Earth, still ask the questions we ask ...

There is a wonderful piece in the book 'beyond the veil' where when asked what the spirits do .. they say they wake up and see how much fun they can have in the day!

There are a lot of Biblical scholars who don't support the rapture concept.

The concept didn't even become popular until Hal Lindsay made it popular around 1970, mostly through fiction novels.

To give you an idea of how it motivates people in an unloving way, Ronald Reagan didn't believe that he needed to worry about things such as the economy and environment, because the rapture is going to bring everything to an end anyway. Too bad for people of the future if he is wrong.

If you consider how Nero was causing Christians to go through a lot of hardship when Revelations was written, it is hard to comprehend why the author of Revelations would be concerned about what is going to happen way in the future.  Christians of the time already had their hands full.

DEANNA: I posted this article before, when you brought up the number 666. It is really worth taking the time to read. Please don't allow yourself to be scarred by the ideas of others. Certainly God is too wise and loving to set things up so that a bunch of souls get deceived by some satan critter and end up in hell for all of eternity. If you spoke to the people who teach the rapture "concept," most of them would say that most of the people who visit this board are amongst satan's victims. It doesn't matter if we're good hearted, well meaning people who want to do what is in accord with God's divine plan. If we don't believe like people who teach the rapture concept believe, we're doomed. :-[
http://www.forerunner.com/beast/X0002_Gentry_-_Beast_of_Re.html

So I saw an interesting documentary on the History Channel about the Rapture and it basically explained how some  English priest arbitrarily strung together bible verses that previously had very little relevancy to each other and created a story about the rapture and started warning his congregation about a "rapture" which may have even been a word he made up.  Anyways the idea of a "rapture" didn't really exist in any concrete way or bother people before the 19th century until this guy showed up and wrote some books about it and started spreading the fear of the rapture.  It seems to me that in that in the long run he may have done more damage than good with his ego in that he has caused many christians to question whether or not they are worthy to be raptured..  Christianity is an interesting religion in that there is a lot of documentation fact and proof that a lot of what a christians' believed had to change with history,.  I think it can be valuble for a  person of a Christian background to spend to effort to examine the history behind some of their beliefs,... separate the wheat from the chaff.  For example....I think its also interesting to point out...that many Jews don't believe in the existence of an afterlife...
  ::)

I must point out these verses in the Bible:

Matthew 24v40 - ... when the Son of Man comes.  At that time two men will be working in a field: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.  Two women will be at a mill grinding meal: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.  Be on your guard then because you do not know what day your Lord will come.

Luke 24v34 - On that night, I tell you, there will be two people sleeping in the same bed: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.  Two women will be grinding corn together: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.

It is in the Bible and cannot be ignored.

Bluejasn dare i say to your words the Jewish people do not believe in the afterlife; the Tribe of Israel is the afterlife.  Gentiles are loved by God through adoption.

If a person some day finds out that his or her false belief systems caused his or herself to be afraid for no reason at all, they'll think "what a waste of time."

If such a person's shared false belief systems caused other people to become afraid for no reason at all, such a person will feel very remorseful when they find out about this.

It is better to share love than to project one's fear.

I'm not saying that there aren't any negative minded spirits out there who are up to no good.  But they are confused and lost spirits who have cut themselves off from their divine source, and represent such a small portion of what exists within the spirit realm.

Recoverer i'm really not sure what you mean when you say "false belief systems" in relation to God and Christ?


Quote:

If such a person's shared false belief systems caused other people to become afraid for no reason at all, such a person will feel very remorseful when they find out about this.

I agree with you totally here and this makes me afraid indeed.  So, really what you are saying is it is better not to talk about God so seriously and concentrate on His Love. I understand this and agree again.  It's just there is a fear of God in my heart and i suppose this comes out here.

I do not mean to make people afraid (if i am) and i will check my tounge.

My respect to you Recoverer
Caryn

Christianity is just another false belief system..which ends you up in a hollow heaven when you die.

The bible is another book, not any more special than the Koran or Bagavad Gita.  Its no more "god's" word than the other two books.

Yes, Christianity brings fear..and guilt for supposed wrongs.

I've been feeling a growing unease the last few times I come here and read things like the rapture taking place and other so-called prophecies from that book.  I fought my way out of that belief system so I would not end up in one of those false heavens.

Of course, everyone has the right to believe as they choose..but the site IS called "Afterlife Knowledge"..and to explore the afterlife, is in direct contradiction to what is proclaimed in the bible.  If you wholeheartedly believe the bible is "God's own written word", then you shouldn't be seeking to speak to those crossed over..

Hi Shirley I don't want u to feel uneasy when u come here and see the traditional collective religious thoughts..because frankly, I know you are on the same path as me and I know I'm doing ok, so I know everybody is doing ok with whatever beliefs they are holding. you're right..they are right because there are so many mansions in the sky, each one of them a belief system to be in with the like-minded.

then theres hollow heavens which may have been a stop over for many on their way to more freeing beliefs where you leave your fears one by one behind, as fears are related to those beliefs and can change suddenly. so u might see levels of beliefs when u think about where we ascend to when we're done here. all of us have equal chances to explore greater realities by busting out of ideas, whether religious, political, scientific or whatever non absolute focus we meander in.
I think the main fear, #1 fear of most people is death itself or annhiliation of the identity, such identity is really only a bunch of beliefs stuck together called "me" or you, with a last and first name.
someday, hopefully I'm still alive in body, most of us will not fear death or what waits on the other side. when that happens then the "shift" will have shifted away from the fundamental traditional collective areas into tolerance and hopefully a type of ascension out of fearful conjectures will be on the horizon which a feeling of freedom from the constraints of religious lore will cause harmony..we might even have a 1,000 years of peace llike the early Christians said..I keep worrying about after the 1,000 years, what happens?  :D

I completely understand your abandonment of religion as speaking personally, the hair raises on my neck to encounter a type of preaching I see now and then only because that trait was me in another dimension. I was/am a preacher, only now I'm a new consciousness as well who knows I preached wrongly and forgot how preaching can separate you from what you would love with an undistorted love. I got set straight by some life planners after I passed over and had no reward on the other side for bringing any to god, for they had found god even before me. those who preach or teach need to learn what it is they teach or preach. there are some useful things in the bible. my favorite is "even greater things than I do, shall ye do" this from J.  its true, we will do great things like healing the sick, as soon as we realize we don't need disease to teach us anything. PUL is the real healer. wish we were there now! but at the least we can focus on healing any thought which separates us one from the other..and what we focus on is what creates personal reality. ahh, but what would we talk about here, should we no longer be divided from one another? http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/yipes.gif

I wish I had greater wisdom to share with you. all I can say is don't sweat the small stuff. life is short enough without doing that. love, alysia

Caryn:

You're right if you sensed I was responding to your post.

This thread started out with a message of fear.

Some us attempted to move away from the fear viewpoint.

I didn't fully understand the meaning of your post, but I felt like you were moving back in the direction of fear.

With everything that went on when the Bible was put together, I can't say for certain who Jesus Christ was (and still is :)). I can see that he had some wonderful things to say. It seems as if he is the first person in the Bible who speaks of a wonderful place known as heaven.  Unfortunately too many scary messages get mixed with his positive messages. I believe it is best for people to realize that a lot went into putting the numerous versions of the Bible that exist, and they need to be discriminative when determining what Jesus actually said. For example there is one part of the New Testament (sorry, I can't remember which part, I think Corithians) where Jesus supposedly states that women should be subservient to men because after all, Eve ate the apple. I don't remember the exact words, but this is okay, because I don't believe that a man who said some of the other wonderful things Jesus said, would state that women should be subservient. He would love them way too much to ever suggest such a thing.  



augoeideian wrote on Sep 7^th, 2006 at 2:57am:

Recoverer i'm really not sure what you mean when you say "false belief systems" in relation to God and Christ? Quote: If such a person's shared false belief systems caused other people to become afraid for no reason at all, such a person will feel very remorseful when they find out about this. I agree with you totally here and this makes me afraid indeed.  So, really what you are saying is it is better not to talk about God so seriously and concentrate on His Love. I understand this and agree again.  It's just there is a fear of God in my heart and i suppose this comes out here. I do not mean to make people afraid (if i am) and i will check my tounge. My respect to you Recoverer Caryn

Thank you, Alysia..your words bring a sense of peace and release to me. :)
You are right..shouldn't sweat the small stuff.

Recoverer..it was Paul who said that...not Jesus.  Paul, who formerly was known as Saul and a persecutor of Christians then went on to take over the whole thing.  He also changed many things that Jesus did say.  He added twists and rules that I don't think were ever really intended.

Its like he interferred with the very changes that J spoke of..the coming new times..and put it all on hold, locking everyone into a fear based belief system that has lasted for the last 2000 years.

When I finally freed myself from that..what a release!  It was J who said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!"  And..it has.

Hi folks

I am certainly no bible scholar. I have learned recently though that it is important to check things out for ourselves before we can truly know for ourselves what someone has or has not said. I always believed Paul was something of the mysogynist. However.......   when you look at the letter to the Ephesians he tells all to 5:21:  submit to each other, out of reverence for Christ.....



5:22

"Wives and Husbands

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing [a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself,[b] and the wife must respect her husband.

The great commandment says to love neighbour as self. We are told to seek God first - Love Itself - and in so doing will find the capacity for loving self and neighbour, made in the Image of Love, perfectly, as we are told to do.

I am not pushing the bible here. I have only really looked at some parts of it in the last two years. I can see however that Paul is telling two people - a man and a woman, to love each other as they would love each self, as God would - as Christ would.

Many men, ignorant of many things, would interpret these words in ways that allow men to have power over women, power they misuse and abuse, something God never intended I believe.

Just some little thoughts on this.

:)

I read bits and pieces from many things - biblical and other sources  :)

Just some out there thoughts folks  :)  I see words like 'Rapture' and 'Afterlife'. What about life ? Now - here and now ? If we are to focus on a 'Rapture' of the 'Afterlife' - something 'future' in a sense - what was, is the point of choosing to be here and now ? I imagine that as we near Love Itself - 'self' - the ego in a sense, 'dies'. The ego that seeks to receive more than give. Bit like the Buddhist 'beyond fear and desire'. What is it about 'Rapture' or seeking Afterlife 'knowledge' or experience that motivates anyone ? Giving or receiving ? Ego or Other ? I think that Love expresses itself most truly in the giving, and in that giving, Love 'receives'. Gotta take that lil 'ol seed, stick it in the ground, let it die, that It may truly Live - Love  :)

Just thoughts.

God Bless ALL  :)

Thank you for clarifying the below Shirley. I now recall that this is where I read the statement. Seems to me like Paul was misrepresenting what Jesus had to say.

I've had to go through the same thing as you. I was raised a Catholic. Thought I was free of some of the fear based ideas this religion includes. Found that I wasn't, that aspects of my mind made it feel unsafe to believe in anything that didn't encompass a particular limited way of thinking.

Certainly spirituality should be a much more joyous thing. If I can see this, then certainly God, in whatever manner he exists, and beings of love and light who are more evolved than me, can also see it.


Shirley wrote on Sep 7^th, 2006 at 5:33pm:

Thank you, Alysia..your words bring a sense of peace and release to me. :) You are right..shouldn't sweat the small stuff. Recoverer..it was Paul who said that...not Jesus.  Paul, who formerly was known as Saul and a persecutor of Christians then went on to take over the whole thing.  He also changed many things that Jesus did say.  He added twists and rules that I don't think were ever really intended. Its like he interferred with the very changes that J spoke of..the coming new times..and put it all on hold, locking everyone into a fear based belief system that has lasted for the last 2000 years. When I finally freed myself from that..what a release!  It was J who said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!"  And..it has.

jgull2a

I think you make a good point.  We're here now because this is where we need to be. We'll gain much more by growing in love than by visiting spirit realms that we'll have all of eternity to explore. It's good to gain some confirmation of the afterlife, and some people play the role that people like Bruce Moen play, but for the most part we'll grow if we focus on the here and now.



Jgull2a wrote on Sep 7^th, 2006 at 6:18pm:

Just some out there thoughts folks  :)  I see words like 'Rapture' and 'Afterlife'. What about life ? Now - here and now ? If we are to focus on a 'Rapture' of the 'Afterlife' - something 'future' in a sense - what was, is the point of choosing to be here and now ? I imagine that as we near Love Itself - 'self' - the ego in a sense, 'dies'. The ego that seeks to receive more than give. Bit like the Buddhist 'beyond fear and desire'. What is it about 'Rapture' or seeking Afterlife 'knowledge' or experience that motivates anyone ? Giving or receiving ? Ego or Other ? I think that Love expresses itself most truly in the giving, and in that giving, Love 'receives'. Gotta take that lil 'ol seed, stick it in the ground, let it die, that It may truly Live - Love  :) Just thoughts. God Bless ALL  :)

I must check it out. I think it was Howard Storm or someone who asked his guardians about the bible during a Near Death or Out of Body Experience. He was told that it was a spiritual book. That many read it looking for contradictions and mistakes. Only when read Spiritually would it reveal its secrets. I think this is true of a lot of reading. We'll see what we want, not necessarily what we need.   :)

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

Hi Recoverer  :)

I am not saying people should not seek experiences. I don't know about Bruce to tell the truth or his work, though will become familiar with it. I just think that this life is the experience we are living now, for very good reasons and we need to be aware of that - live for the moment - carpe diem and all that. The lesson is to a great extent learning that - live in the moment, the present - the day that is a thousand years and thousand years that is a day - 'eternity'  :) Depends on the perspective. Do I experience a 'day' or a 'thousand years' ? We all have perspectives and can all give each other a glimpse of something the other might miss. Giving it, as you rightly say, in Love  :)  I think this is a lovely place. The Christian boards I've been on do more fighting and wrangling amongst each other than anything. It's pathetic and tragic. Christians can put people off. I don't think we should judge Christ or His message by Christians though. LOL

Well, I think y'all know what I mean.  I will be burned at the stake and sent straight to Hell for a zillion eternities for that lil remark  ;D

Night from here.

God bless you all

Jgull2a:

I agree with the below. We shouldn't judge Christ according to how some people have misrepresented him. It was bound to happen that people would. We're so much into spinning out our various opinions.

Regarding Howard Storm, I've read two near death experiences that seemed as believable as any I have read, and in each case a being of light told the person having an NDE that an NDE happens according to a person's beliefs.  The more a person is able to open his or her mind during an NDE, the more accurate picture they'll receive.  It isn't just a matter of what a person is committed to before they have an NDE. It can also be a matter of the beliefs they have in place, whether conscious or unconscious.


[quote author=Jgull2a link=1157288693/15#19 date=1157668480]
Hi Recoverer  :)

I don't think we should judge Christ or His message by Christians though. LOL

Hi everyone  :) .. Ow, nasty bite you have there Shirley  ;)

Jgull2a is it not wonderful that the Bible is a spiritual book  :) Thank you for the clarification of Paul's teachings to a Man and Woman. Being a woman; it is one of my favourite writings in that it tells us of many truths.  i'm not sure what mysogynist means (its not in the dictionary lol)  but yes! Paul was rather a strong character wasn't he .. but then he was talking to the Romans and i suppose a character like that was needed.

You know it's a funny thing how people get all heated up over the name Jesus Christ .. strange how it stirs up the emotions.  Through my studies i've realised that the Gods don't particularly like us! We bother them and we can be rather irritating at most times to them; after all why should they share their heaven with us?  Ah well, this is my reflections - each person to their own interpretation.

The Bible, received by Moses on Sapphire tablets, is a most wonderful poem from God to us and has survived many years, 3500 odd years up today.  That must be a record!  And in this decade of ours it is equally inspiring to find that it is such a multi-dimensional book.  

I have made a post in the past regarding the mistranslation of the Bible.  I cannot say if it is true because it is not from the Bible and God might not agree with me.  I write of it again because many times i feel it is confirmed;

It comes from the Osirian writings, i have posted from this book before and find it runs parallel to the Bible and adds further enrichment.  The mistranslation is:

Mark 15 v 34
The Death of Jesus

It is written:
Jesus cried out  “Eloi, Eloi lema sabachthani”
“My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?”

The Osirian writings say it should be:

Jesus cried out “Lem zabachthani”
“My wounds will be kept open by those who defame me”

A every so slight difference making a huge difference.  Ah the confirmation hurts.

But now, here i go talking about my passion for Christ where some here have said they fear the things they don't want to hear.  It's very hard to keep a woman's mouth shut lol

Oh just before i go ... Alysia we do seem to be sparring partners don't we  ;) lol it is just your statement that i cannot ignore as much as i have tried too.


Quote:

there are some useful things in the bible. my favorite is "even greater things than I do, shall ye do" this from J.  its true, we will do great things like healing the sick, as soon as we realize we don't need disease to teach us anything.

You have said a truth here Alysia but i say too you, in the context of your full post, how can we expect to receive the parts that only suit us and reject the whole?

Please do not think i am fighting with you - i voice my pov as part of a healthy discussion.

My love and appreciation.
Have a wonderful weekend  :)

Here is one definition of rapture:

ecstasy: a state of elated bliss

Each one of us can be lifted up into this state every day of our lives. We can also lift each other up with love.

I have come to believe that the best method to use to depart from this earthly realm is to simply let go....to allow the wings which appear from "no where" to heighten each sensation of peace and love in our hearts until we are in love with love. It is timeless, this state, and exists always, without beginning and without end.

in gratitude, blink

this has turned into interesting thread..never a dull moment here! [smiley=bath.gif]
I re-read Juditha opening post and wish to give her credit to peak our interest. long time ago I realized something ironic..the original poster can feel strange when their thread goes wandering off to Kalamozoo, but my perspective is that it was supposed to wander off and its perfect.
Juditha, you mention swirling clouds during the rapture. this is an image or a symbol for what folks try to grasp. I would say the rapture is in truth something that happens to the individual heart in it's own time and place, like an inside job rather than an entire culture, country or the entire body of Christ for instance. I say this from my perception that there is division in the churches and that the rapture is another word for new agers expression of the shift in consciousness..a very slow progressive journey taking centuries of time in a linear sense. although I concede there are some (blinded by the light) can receive a jolt of electricity and change their dirty low down ways quite suddenly!  that is somehow hilarious to me although it must have been a rude awakening as well as painful and quite near death's door.
my opinion I am my worst enemy and my best friend, no one can save me from my own beliefs, and if I believe in heaven or hell I will gravitate to locations where I see these images around me that I am where I believe I am. all the more important to focus on what beliefs bring in harmony within yourself, and as many say here this is a lovely and loving place, so long as we focus on that it remains so.
we here on earth are making it all up. so the now moment is important to recognize what we are thinking and feeling in the now, as the now becomes tomorrow, if you recieve the gift of tomorrow as, well, death can be sudden if that's on your map.
___
I don't see us as sparring Caryn. any book I read I have to take what's useful in it and toss the rest as not useful or until I can eventually catch the deeper meaning that has been interpreted by another person exactly like me, who can also misinterpret. I don't discredit the entire bible. if u accept every single word written by anybody at all as infallible and absolute truth a person could fall into a sheep mentality or a blind faith mentality. the bible is only a book to me like all the others. the symbology takes years to decipher, even the scholars can forget its about love and the golden rule. as far as I'm concerned  if someone wrote a book that said "do unto others as you would have done unto you" or "love one another as you love yourself" and they wrote no other words, then it should be a best seller but that will never happen!

I don't see why Christians or non Christians or whatever label one chooses to put on themselves can't talk though and maybe that day is coming, then we'll have that peace on earth idea the bible talks about.
______
quote from Caryn:     Jesus cried out “Lem zabachthani”
“My wounds will be kept open by those who defame me”

A every so slight difference making a huge difference.  Ah the confirmation hurts.
_____

was wondering about the above statement Caryn if u could tell me why you say the confirmation hurts. I'll give my interpretation which might not be the same as yours, but might be fun to compare.

when J says my wounds will be kept open, I think I have that correct to mean suffering would continue on the earth among the body of Christ, but in a wider sense, all of humanity is "the body." the 2nd part "by those  who defame me"  means this to me:  J had Christ consciousness. he spoke of PUL. those who suffer are suffering according to traditional religious concept because they have denied that J is "the way, the truth and the light as there are bible passages that say these words although I'm not a scholar. defame could mean to actually put someone down in judgmental way.
what has gotten misinterpreted down thru the centuries is that J's way is the only way. Christians have pride and yet they will point at a non christian and say that person is the one with pride. J never said it's my way or the highway, or you are going to roast in the fire, because his love was big enough to encompass even non believers.

the main thing I want to thank J for, personally if possible! is that he left the holy spirit with us...to me the holy spirit can unite all of us by a "knowing" and such a state of peace and understanding and love that you can pick up any literature at any time of the century and have bells going off what the truth of it is and how god is impersonal yet personally tailor made for each at the same time.
thanks for sparking us off Juditha..u may be one of these  [smiley=engel017.gif]

Hi alysia it was me what started the rapture on this forum not juditha
DEANNA

my apologies Deanna.

augoeideian wrote on Sep 8^th, 2006 at 10:51am:

Hi everyone  :) .. Ow, nasty bite you have there Shirley  ;)

Not sure I understand that statement.. :(

Hello on this day.

Shirley and Alysia you have each asked me a question to my last post here and the answer may be found in the insightful link that Jgull2a posted entitled "Therapy of Love and Enlightment"

Quote from link http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html:
The entire life's review would have been emotionally destructive, and would have left me a psychotic person, if it hadn't been for the fact that my friend, and my friend's friends, were loving me during the unfolding of my life. I could feel that love. Every time I got a little upset they turned the life's review off for awhile, and they just loved me. Their love was tangible. You could feel it on your body, you could feel it inside you; their love went right through you. I wish I could explain it
to you, but I can't.

Further to you asking Alysia .. as much as the love goes right through - so does the blasphemy.

Yes; it is a good link that and i wonder if this is the reason why I am thinking of the field Akeldama written of in Acts 1.

Is this day dark as the night is long?

Here is another NDE from the same site. Mellen-Thomas Benedict receives this message at the start.

"I asked the light, "What is going on here? Please, light, clarify yourself for me. I really want to know the reality of the situation."  

I cannot really say the exact words, because it was sort of telepathy.  The light responded. The information transferred to me was that your beliefs shape the kind of feedback you are getting before the light. If you were a Buddhist or Catholic or Fundamentalist, you get a feedback loop of your own stuff. You have a chance to look at it and examine it, but most people do not."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html


From  the same site here is an article that speaks about differences in experience.

http://www.near-death.com/differences.html

Here's a significant quote from the above.

"Jody Long, a researcher with NDERF, points out, "One of the near-death experience truths is that each person integrates their near-death experience into their pre-existing belief system." This important truth must be kept in the back of ones mind when reading these different accounts"

It seems to me that you can't determine what is true by looking at one NDE in isolation.


augoeideian wrote on Sep 11^th, 2006 at 5:21am:

Hello on this day. Shirley and Alysia you have each asked me a question to my last post here and the answer may be found in the insightful link that Jgull2a posted entitled "Therapy of Love and Enlightment" Quote from link http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html: The entire life's review would have been emotionally destructive, and would have left me a psychotic person, if it hadn't been for the fact that my friend, and my friend's friends, were loving me during the unfolding of my life. I could feel that love. Every time I got a little upset they turned the life's review off for awhile, and they just loved me. Their love was tangible. You could feel it on your body, you could feel it inside you; their love went right through you. I wish I could explain it to you, but I can't. Further to you asking Alysia .. as much as the love goes right through - so does the blasphemy. Yes; it is a good link that and i wonder if this is the reason why I am thinking of the field Akeldama written of in Acts 1. Is this day dark as the night is long?

Dear Recoverer.. you said It seems to me that you can't determine what is true by looking at one NDE in isolation.

this is what/where my head is at, this statement :) each NDE, each person is an enigma to scope out and draw the connections to humanity as a whole. whatever beliefs I hold, that is the same to me as holding up my cup to be filled with the measure of my own thoughts/ideals/aspirations. only what I can conceive of being, doing, only that is given to me.
____
moving aside from Recoverers statement...  
when I started writing a guide came and told me to concieve, not document. Extend, do not react. thought about that awhile. didn't just want to write down something somebody else said I thought was true, but just my own experiences which are always true, but only for yourself.   I am not the moderator here but I can smell something cooking..lol...
when a person makes a judgment about another publicly, it offers the other person a challenge to defend themselves. whenever one says, you are this, or you have that, try to qualify it by saying I could be wrong, or this is my opinion..then that gives the other person an in without making them become defensive. I think asking a question is better than firing a gun then asking questions later.
we've got mysticism and christianity attempting to balance here from my pov. let's just do it with kindness since we like to talk about love here I'd like to observe it in action and I don't think I'm the only one would like to see that.
we hardly know each other. these are just words out in cyber space. what do we really know if we put all our knowledge in a basket would it really be that much?
I see no reason we cant all be here, and holding diverse beliefs. what...is this another holy war? why do we repeat the same wars? [smiley=tongue.gif]
shirley, don't leave. I swear this is not the church which disappointed you so badly but this is a brand new ball game. ;)

and now for the disclaimer; these are my opinions and observations and not necessarily those of the managment

You are so right again, Alysia!  I should not open discussions about biblical topics at all.  They cause an aggravation within me that I suppose makes me come off as "biting".

My only thing is that alot of what we do discuss here is just not compatible with general Christianity.  I remember when I first started coming here..on the old board..I was told that hell was my destiny for having anything to do with it.

Since I believe that biblical hell/heaven is a falsehood..I chose to remain where ideas that resonate with my inner being abound. When the old ideas are presented..its like hearing a note off key to me.. :(

well, durn. I think some of the old biblical saying like rapture cause triggers if they are not fully explained what it means in a personal sense.
decided to go to another thread myself. just didn't want u to feel bad. guess I'm a protector spirit too.

thanks for sharing your self. and thanks everybody else. I'm sure theres room for everybody in heaven..if such a thing exists, I do hope its not hallow whereever any of us go..I think not..we are too curious to stay in one spot for long...love, alysia

From Plato's Timaeus:

All men who possess even a small share of good sense call upon God always at the outset of every undertaking, be it small or great: we therefore who are purposing to deliver a discourse concerning the Universe, how far it is created or is uncreated, must needs invoke gods and goddesses praying that all we say may be approved by them in the first place, and secondly by ourselves.  

And to those who seek along such a path, Plato promises that the Godhead, as Saviour, makes it possible that such a distant and difficult investigation one so prone to error can be accomplished through an enlightened philosophy.

God is not present for him in the materially comprehensible world. There He is present as nature. He lies spell-bound in nature. According to the ancient mystics, only he can approach Him who awakens the divine within himself. Therefore He cannot so easily be made comprehensible to everyone. He does not appear in person, even to those who approach Him.

But this one and only begotten world would be incomplete if it did not have among its images the image of the Creator Himself. Only out of the soul of man can this image be born. It is not the Father Himself who can be born of man, but the Son, the offspring of God living in the soul, who is like unto the Father.

Philo of whom it was said that he was Plato reborn, called the wisdom born of man, the Son of God;  this wisdom lives in the soul and contains the intelligence that exists in the world. This world-intelligence, the Logos, appears as the book in which has been inscribed and engraved the formation of the world.

Further it appears as the Son of God, who followed the ways of his Father, and shaped the different kinds, looking to the archetypal patterns which that Father supplied.  In the manner of Plato, Philo speaks of this Logos as the Christ: For since God is the first and sole King of the universe, the road leading to Him, being a king's road, is rightly called royal. This road you must take to be philosophy ... the philosophy which the ancient circle of ascetics pursued in hard-fought contest, eschewing the soft enchantments of pleasure, engaged with a fine severity in the study of what is good and fair. This royal road then, which we have just said to be true and genuine philosophy, is called in the Law, the utterance and word of God.

***

What I get from reading what Plato said is that God has a divine plan, and it is best to follow it. I agree, but will add that it is the most joyfull thing to do.

Aye, Recoverer it is the most joyful thing - it is like a trumpet that sounds inside the heart.  It is deserving of respect that is all.

I do understand where you are coming from, like Shirley, no fondness for organised religion.  I am the same - I do not go to church (may the God-fearing people that go to church be filled with the joy that resonants with them for they are good people)  Alas though, I cannot find what soothes my soul in a church and I daresay I might be a bit 'odd' for their wonderful community. But then this is my internal struggle, for there is the Law and how can I think that i am different from the God-fearing people that do go to church - just because i am 'odd' this does not make me special. Over the years with this constant internal struggle of not going to church; I have to find my peace for my burning love of God and I have found my peace, my church is in nature, in the trees and the flowers, here i find my communion with God.  Although my communion with God is all the time through the Christ that lives in me.

This is the Glory - Christ is inside us - it is like a plant which at first has only green leaves and then puts forth a coloured blossom. The forces through which the flower developed were already latent in the plant before the blossom came into existence, but they became reality only when we recognise Christ is in us all the time.  And as a plant is watered and nutured so the blossom blooms.

Ah yes the church, this is our generation that says I feel the Divine Love inside me but I do not find my comfort in the church.  I might be too outspoken here and many wars have been fought in the Name of Christ ... but I say;  that church that sets its ruler on a throne thinking that he is the king but he is never hot nor cold he is lukewarm and has ruled over the nations in this manner turning people to think that Christ is as him has a lot to answer for. The original topic of this thread - I would place here in this man's house. But we know nothing happens without a reason and the reason here might be the recognising of this reason. But here i have voiced a political opinion and for this I to will have to answer and yes where is my respect here?

It is our generation that is re-kindling the Warmth and saying I recognise Christ in me and I recognise the Christ in you - and truly this is wonderful for we are one joined together in Love.

As Socrates says, When the soul reflects alone by itself, it departs into the realm of the pure, the everlasting, the immortal and the changeless, and being akin to these, it dwells always with them whenever it is by itself and is not hindered, and it has rest from its wanderings and remains always the same and unchanging with the changeless, since it is in communion therewith. And this state of the soul is called wisdom ... Then see, if this is not the conclusion from all that we have said, that the soul is most like the divine and immortal and intellectual and uniform and indissoluble and ever unchanging, and the body, on the contrary, most like the human and mortal and multiform and unintellectual and dissoluble and ever-changing ...Then if it is in such a condition, the soul goes away into what is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error, folly, fear, fierce loves and all the other human ills and, as the initiated say, lives in truth through all after-time with the gods.

Therefore the soul has nothing to do with death but endless communion with the Divine.  Some people might read this and not feel anything similiar in themselves, this is where the saying "those who have the ears listen" is appropriate.  When the time is right the plant will blossom - that is all - it is a natural process and ones expression might be different.  But; the cornerstone is to Honour God, whether silently in your heart or shouting out loud and respect His Creation that has made us alive and our Christ that is in us will shine like a beacon and will forever be our guide.

And yes there is a Divine Plan and we are part of it - this is how much God loves us.  Once we realise this, with reverence, can we truly start creating .. for if God be for us who possibly can be against us.

Thank you for the opportunity for me to express myself and appreciation to Bruce for this community and my respect to everyone here.

Glory to God in the Highest and Peace to His children on Earth.

I get what you're saying Augoeideian.

I receive messages from spirit pretty much every morning after I wake up.

This morning I was shown a crucifix.

I asked to be told something about Jesus.

I was shown a headless, legless manigan on display in a department store. The manigan was covered with a white fur coat that had black spots. I wondered about this for a moment and a message came to me. "They killed Jesus, they put him on display, they spotted his reputation (misrepresented him)." The color white was a symbol for the white light he represents.

Next I say myself sitting by my piano. I pressed a high C note. It became clear to me that this meant "C"hrist represents the highest level of "C"onsciousness.

Very cool Albert. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn

:'(

Loved are you Albert to receive such truthful visions.

My tears are the releasing of the dross .. and should have a smile face! The truth you have said is the hurt but the truth told to you, through you, is a Joy.  There is no religion higher than the truth.

As Paracelsus said;
Distil a sufficient number of times till the salt shall depart from it - when the salt, the removal of the dross, has gone then the gold will be found in the liquid.

Albert may you be forever blessed, comforted and loved.

xXx

:D Marilyn and Augoeideian.

:)

I find this a veryinteresting discussion
has been years since i went to a Christian church, only for weddings etc
I am facinated by what you guys think
thanks for sharing
Cathy B

H Caryn -
Of the two in the field, one saved and the other lost (recycled? - a chance to do it all again?) I think Spooky's Upanishadic quote is pretty close to the essential idea that explains that quotation. But it's a hard saying for those who don't relate to spirits and suchlike.

However, Hinduism does teach that rapture is the reward of those who persevere in spiritual discipline. It occurs inthree ways, summed up by the term "sat-chit-ananda". Satyam relates to the joyful creativity, the nature of God as Creator of a happy and enthusiastic universe - and doubtless explains a little of that Divine Sense of Humor that we occasionally encounter. Chittam is mind-stuff, both an interest and inquiring awareness, and also an insightful understanding of how things really are. It includes perception of everything as One, and seeing the One God in Everything. Ananda is blissfulness in its most concentrated forms, such as love for one another in the human state, and for God in the transcendental state, as well as the infinte comfort of directly sensing oneself as a part of God.

While this is hardly the Christian version, it certainly can be found if we are willing to look beyond the words of Christian Scripture. Hindu texts, like all other religious writings, including the Judaic, Christian and Islamic writings, have been passed through a very large number of transcribers and literary analysts, not all of whom have been enlightened people. The fact that Hindus have maintained an active religious practice in yoga (and its outgrowth in Buddhism, which is rather like a reform version of Vedanta) has prompted lots of people to "go there and look for themselves". That has led to a huge (!) amount of similar scriptural material, as each saint or guru attempted to express their personal version of the same spiritual experience.

The Christian Church spent many dogmatic years (Inquisitions, for example) in which individual expressions were squashed, leaving us with relatively sparse writings. Islam has had much the same history, although Kabir and Nanak, Omar and so on, and later Bahaulla (my apologies to Bahais - there's too many apostrophes, and I always do them wrong, so I just leave them out - please, correct me if you would) and in the modern world Kirpal Singh and yogis who have brought forward meditation on the Cosmic Sound Current (Surat Shabd Yoga) have been vaguely successful in preserving a little of the mysticism of their culture. But even the Sufis are heretics to some. Surat Shabd Yoga directly and immediately produces bliss and rapture, as do the other Hindu-Buddhist-Tantric yogas, but these take a lot of discipline and effort. By contrast, "The Imitation of Christ" (as only one possible example from many) can be studied and interpreted, eventually leading to yoga (where yoga = yug- = yoking into union with God) but it's even longer to get there that way.

If you all will forgive me for being pragmatic, rather than joining an esoteric discussion of religion, it seems appropriate to point out that following Bruce's example of goimng into spiritual places and rescuing stuck souls produces a remarkably good approximation of satchitananda. If you don't believe me, go there and see for yourself. Rapture is. As for the Scriptural debate - at least it gives us something to do that keeps us off the streets and in a (usually) decent frame of mind. Hum?

PUL
dave

Hi Dave

Thank you for picking up the original title of this topic.

What you have said makes great sense to me.  The rapture is happening all the time and the ultimate risen consciousness is rewarded through discipline rather than taking the face value of this scripture which might be viewed as being a selective and a elective once off occurance.

For we are eternally striving towards our Source of pure bliss, and as our consciousness increases so does the bliss.  So the scripture saying one is in the field and one is in the bed may be saying if you are not consciously gathering the wheat or if you are sleeping chances are you need to lol yes be recycled for your benefit (that is).

Discipline .. such a strong word fill of life's lessons .. choices really i suppose and as one gets closer to the source (through recycling .. stepping stones) the easier the yoking (nice word) becomes.  Although possibly the outside interferences become harder as well.

This quote might be approriate;
"Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty". - Frank Herbert

Again thanks Dave for your wonderful insight into this chapter.  To me; being pragmatic is disciplined and highly appreciated.  Indeed math is very esoteric. lol.

Hinduism .. how this literature soothes my soul.  Yes, Christianity became dogmatic because of the reason you mentioned; the inquistion.  In those days people initiated into the Christian 'mysteries' were sworn to silence as the enlightment was regarded with care for those who were at this stage of consciousness.  It was viewed that people who could not understand the deeper meaning of the messages would be doing a dis-service to themselves; as you said "go there and look for themselves" seems to be the only way towards enlightment.  No-one could just tell someone this means this and that ... the person had to feel and experience personally in order to understand the message intimately.

Today it is wonderful to see so many people discussing these messages and meanings. And i suppose today's debate is (like you said) attempting to express their personal version of the same spiritual experience.

I am glad you brought up the subject of retriving stuck souls.  I haven't stopped thinking about it since i came here.  i do have some pretty crazy dreams but i have never consciously in my sleep come across a stuck soul.  So i put forward now that i am not convinced that there are suck souls although Dave i respect you and because you have spoken about here maybe it is something that i have completely missed.

To me, from descriptions i have read here,  it seems these events take place in the Astral realm of emotions, senses and deceptions.  I worry in, although the intentions are honourable, whether retrivals are mis-leading and caught up under a cloud of emotional imagination. If we read Rudolf Steiner's 'Life beyond Death' there is a very clear path of what happens when one dies in the physical body.  I do trust Steiner's work and he does not write about retrivals.  I say this with huge respect to everyone who does retrivals; i am still a student and like i say maybe it is a part i have completely missed.  Om.

My love
Caryn

Hi Caryn-
Seems like stuck souls come in all stages of lfe and death. Fixation on "My Way is the Only Way" is quite enough to do it. But I usually find them stuck on someone else's body. Half are trying to escape their fears of a Nasty and Vengeful God, and the other half seem to be stuck on physical pleasures that seem more interesting than becoming one wih God. If you are interested, Bruce's books seem to describe a decent way to get into the rescue business. All it takes is a clear mind and compassionate interest.
And a lotta love,
dave

Bruce's work seems to be very disciplined, categorising all the different dimensions.  Huge respect to Bruce for his insightful clarity and the discipline he has in order to do this.

I can understand souls 'stuck' in Earth - this is our endeavour to get passed the gravity of it all.  I also believe that there are spirits that attach themselves to people like you say.  Mark Hedsel wrote about this in his book 'The Zealator' written after his passing.  With sketch artwork showing these spirits literally sitting ontop of people.  Also it is fairly common to sense these spirits on people.

I still would not call them souls or spirits though.  I would call them fragments of wasted etheric material used by anti-forces.  Souls are too big to descend upon a person and spirits are very flowing things, like the air, to be so fixed.

But as regards to people who have passed on and have been documented as been 'stuck' well what is been said here then basically .. it is because they do not have Christ in their lives? For it is said Christ is the way and the light.  However, even here i believe that we all come from the Godhead who gave us all a piece of Christ in us - so we return back to the Spark - some on different 'levels' sure but nevertheless back from whence we came.

People that do not go back to the Spark must then surely be not part of the Spark?

To get back to discipline and Bruce; he documented this for a reason and for this it must be real.
I will read his books and, God willingly, will keep on trying to 'rescue' lost people in the dimensions - for hands on experience is the only way to understand.

Caryn asks: People that do not go back to the Spark must then surely be not part of the Spark?
____

I think they are a part of god too. its like that we have a choice. the Christ stands at the door and knocks. but we answer the door. I like this saying: "come, I will make you fishers of men."

I used to think in terms of fragments of god, were we all. I still think this sometimes but more often I feel myself merging into a person's mind with for instance in a retrieval area. I don't feel any different then from a person who has done selfish or evil deeds as they are still redeemable and can still choose again to answer the door.
to my understanding there is astral counterparts when sent to the light do become transmuted into their owner, from whom they were created, the higher self. apparently, we have this ability to spin off parts of ourselves which then in turn have a kind of self consciousness that they exist. these would be the type that hover over drunks at the bar..not very pretty, but it happens.  I don't think these lower entities know they have a choice until the choice is presented to them in a way that is acceptable.

augoeideian wrote on Sep 6^th, 2006 at 3:36am:

I must point out these verses in the Bible: Matthew 24v40 - ... when the Son of Man comes.  At that time two men will be working in a field: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.  Two women will be at a mill grinding meal: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.  Be on your guard then because you do not know what day your Lord will come. Luke 24v34 - On that night, I tell you, there will be two people sleeping in the same bed: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.  Two women will be grinding corn together: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind. It is in the Bible and cannot be ignored. Bluejasn dare i say to your words the Jewish people do not believe in the afterlife; the Tribe of Israel is the afterlife.  Gentiles are loved by God through adoption.

                                    ********************************

"......Evil is the great illusion-creation of all mankind. Religious thought of all ages has
seldom offered more than a stumbling solution to this enigma, for nearly all religions offer a kindly and loving God who yet has created evil and is tempting man with it. Now, it is
obvious that there is nothing kindly or loving about a God who visits disease and pain and
poverty and suffering upon his children, any more than there is anything beneficent about
a diety who creates evil so that he can burn in hell those he manages to temp with it. The
very plain fact is manifest. 'If God is a God of love, He did not create evil and hell!'

And so with the entire hideous conception of the devil and hell. If God created the devil
and hell, He would have to know that He was going to send some of His children there,
and it even follows that He would have a pretty good idea who they would be. So that
would give us a God who created the temptation, who created persons unable to resist
it, and who precondemned them to an eternal residence in the furnaces of Satan and hell.

It is ridiculous, of course, yet the extremely important point is this: as far as man's
earthly life is concerned, if he believes in hell and the devil, he suffers all the tortures
they offer each time he falls from what his own mind and belief system considers to be
grace.

All these things man creates into reality in his life on Earth, evil, poverty, hell and the
devil, but God has nothing to do with them!

Now we must understand what God is. God is obviously all wisdom and all knowledge.
Since He knows everything, He never has any problems. There are never any questions
to answer, nor goals to achieve; there is never knowledge to be gained, nor experience
to be had. Every movement to God is automatically creation. Somehow mankind has
insisted upon devising a God with a whole set of moral attributes, but since moral
implies conflict with immoral, God could not possibly be either. He could not possibly be
put in the position of wrestling, Himself, with good and evil and creating that which for
the moment gained the upper hand. It has to be understood that God only creates, and He
creates without the knowledge of good and evil. It has to be understood that each
being creates through thought. Morally, the world-conscious human being knows right
and wrong and good and evil, therefore he creates them. He creates them by his own
thought and belief systems. He. We. All of us. Not God!

For the act of creation in this life is accomplished by the Conscious Mind acting on the
Subconscious mind, and the Universal Subconscious Mind is the mind of God.

Mankind will never be able to accept an all-loving and just God who created evil. Mankind
has never been able to reconcile such a God with the patent fact disease and suffering
fall like rain on the just and unjust. The thinking mind is emotionally torn to bits even
dwelling on such an idea. But we need not think of it any further, for it can be proven
that suffering and evil of every kind are created by man and man alone.

Alysia, i agree with what you said.  And Gman i totally agree.

Caryn, sometimes I check to see if we are in the rapture now. I don't think we can say any of us missed the boat..maybe this forum is a boat! http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/boat.gif and we are still sailing along but its nice to be together with friends. sending good vibes so we can have smooth sailing weather and ride the rip tides too. love, alysia

Thanks for your kind words Alysia  :)