While on the way to go home to my baked tofu and (not limburger, I prefer sharp cheddar) and rice, I stopped to read the tail end of the tale of lower plain spirits. Docs remarks about use of delta tones and dark energies stood out to me.

I used to be a hippie , until a kind and understanding judge gave me the choice between a long vacation at State expense and getting a paying job, as a result of which  I eventually returned to the real world, more or less. However, in the interval between there were years of dark entities.

I class them into four genera, following others in the field: (1) quasi-stable vortices of mindless energy, supported by feedback provided by the host. These often feel like urges, aches and pains, habits, stray thoughts and so on. (2) Self directed energies, like the previous, except that the feedback mechanisms are internalized so that some degree of choice is possible. These usually come across as urges to do dumb things, like getting drunk and smoking pot in public (a fairly sure way of getting a weekend in the slammer). Many young people who have not as yet acquired discrimination and reflective judgement, as well as sociopaths and others with defective logical apparatus are prone to these. (3) Spiritual beings with normal capacities, but whose bodies have fallen off. These become the entities that attach themselves to us and others. Mostly they are driven by an intense existential dread of being annihilated by a brutal and vengeful God. They sek experiences that prove that they have life and existence. (4) Embodied spirits who have problems with mental health in general, often found in my waiting room, and in the recliners of other therapists.

The surest way to acquire a dark entity is to go into an unfamiliar state without adequate preparation, so that there are tag ends of guilt, blame, anger, hatred, fear, or other self-defeating dark emotions. This happens in two ways. The usual way is Doc's example, trying a new technique, and discovering that it reached farther than expected, so that new psychic territory had opened up. This is always a problem with young yogis who develop meditative skills that raise kundalini long before they are ready to control it, and is why gurus caution us that meditation and yoga are serious business. Generally, these entities are rather like the worms and bugs that are briefly exposed when a field is plowed, and they quickly retreat, or get sent away by sheer lack of acceptance.

A second way to open new territory is to go to a place in which there is intense psychic activity, a graveyard is a typical example, and go to sleep, take drugs (often a bad scene), get drunk (really a bad scene!), or practice Chod (a ritual of self sacrifice in which the soul and body are dedicated to the demons as food). I attended a conference on the Queen Mary a couple years ago and was haunted by a group of hildren and teens who insisted that I stay there to play with them. They were there for three nights, and they bugged my wife as well, after which we moved to a nice hotel that had no such problems. Outside the cabin door we had a small spot in which there was an intense smell, as if someone had burned the rug, but half a foot to any side, it vanished.

While doing hippie things I took LSD and discovered that the primary action of the drug was to speed up everything, but to remove controls over the stuff circulating through my head, so that it opened new windows into the unknown. New ideas flowed in, but so did a lot of flies and assorted demonic energies. I eventually got used to denying them the ability to cause me harm, despite the fact that they might be eating me, or that I had somehow taken a wriong turn and wound up in the third circle of hell.

The bottom line is that these are forces that have life, but they are not true parasites, not even at their worst. When they actually attain the ability to cause physical harm, they also take on some kind of embodiment that limits them. Otherwise, they remain spiritual, and as such, they can live only in the places within the mind where personal ideas and their sense of identity overlap. As a result, they are always t our mercy to drive them away. Even the fringe dwellers who attempt to embody themselves in cold spots (regions in which the Brownian motion of air is reduced in order to allow them to find alignment that can support their energies) are liable to getting trapped by magnetic fields, or dissipated by introduction of ions into the air, as by burning something like sage, or alcohol poured over a basin of salt etc.

While on the topic, I caution everyone to be wary of drugs. I speak from experience. Even though I have a medically approved California "Cannabis Card" that allows me to puff a bit at night for sleep and a few other issues, and despite decades of exposure, I still churn up a few spooks every so often. The very simple meditative methods that Bruce uses are fully as effective as LSD, providing that ne learns and applies them. The difference is that with LSD you can't turn it off, and you are always slightly "altered" by the drug, usually more emotionally sensitive, making it vastly more difficult to turn away dark energies that use fear o survive. If you want more bang for the buck", the various audio tone systems, hemi-sync,  and similar methods are excellent (try Bruce's tapes!) and for the really adventurous, meditative hypnosis with a trusted guide will take you farther than any drug.

As for the unwanted spooks - the simplest approach is to deny them space in your world. This is not a case of handling them directly, but of "willing them not to have existence there", more or less as Bruce would put it. My world contains no maleavolent entities, and if any should attempt to enter, they will notice that there is no space for them They do not occur here. Often I watch them bounce off around the fringes of my space, but I have to intentionally seek after them if I want to see spooks.

I also use a meditation in which I return to the Source, and identify with the voidness in which there is only the potential God-force, which means that everything collapses into oneness, and the oneness is God-ness. This is a normal meditation for yogis (nirvastarka samadhi) that operates very well, since it either excludes other beings, or it consolidates them back into their Creator. Given that, it is safe to offer entities a chance to "ride along with me, if you don't like going into the Light", which has solved a few of my more difficult entity evictions.  However, at the same time, it seems to have put me in touch with a lot of physicists whose energies occasionally seem to channel themselves through me in the form of new ideas, solutions to difficult math and so on.

Forive me for running on and on - time for lunch. I actually LIKE baked tofu!

PUL to all-
dave

LOL Dave :-)  A long time ago in one of your posts you'd said you liked baked tofu and limburger.  I thought I was giving you something you liked and now I find out you prefer sharp cheddar.  Oh dear....

This is another interesting post that seems to make sense although I have not personally experienced any kind of encounter with a negative entity or influence.  I've always had the feeling of being completely and totally protected at all times.  This may be because I seem to be an observer rather than a participant.  Not sure why that is.  For example, in a retrieval type of experience, one time I watched me talking with an elderly woman that was in what looked to be a hospital or nursing home.  I presume we are somehow able to split our consciousness or something.  Not sure I completely understand how this works.

My experience with spontaneous kundalini was very pleasant and has been extremely beneficial even though I had little knowledge and zero training at that time.  My only explanation is that I didn't feel any fear.  I was in a state of complete acceptance and I felt very safe if that makes any sense.  It propelled me to seek understanding because of the "side effects" such as seeing auras, etc. but I went about this as more of an adventure out of curiosity rather than fear.  At times I did feel like "good grief what is happening now?" but that just made me want to know and understand more once the initial surprise and shock wore off.   I have heard of others having negative experiences with kundalini so I don't doubt that this happens.  In the cases that I know of fear has played a major role.

Thanks for another informative post!  

Love, Kathy :-)

PS  This time you can pick your own lunch!   ::)





   

Hi Dave :D I like tofu and cheddar. Tai food, yaaay.
thanks for all that stuff, I'm on overload from your words and I think my kundalini is right where its supposed to be, although my goodness one night I was awakened by rushes of energy crecending all over my physical like waves very intense, I thought I was being chased by a group I hang with in the astral and they touched me, so "tag" I was it now. was really fun for those of us who can understand and have not forgotten we are just older kids. ah yes life is interesting now but no two experiences are quite the same when talking about these things.
visuals....better than drugs..definetely. I experimented some as a hippie but always felt like it would be a dead end and so it was, I think not being able to turn it off was very scarey for me. a group of us used to sit against the wall, not talking, just waiting for it to be over it seemed like. I'm sure that was just my perceptions as I wanted to flap my lips being sociable deep down, but just didn't want to be the initiator of that. so young, my youth was wasted on my youth if that makes sense. visuals: thought I'd try it one time: lay down feeling like worlds biggest idiot who likes to experiment with the mind. started circulating energy up thru the feet..dang if I didn't actually feel energy moving and was that me? made it grow, imagining, visualing, decided to expand it, went to the top of the world..laffing at myself, as what are you going to do up there? looked around some, made my arms big and gave the world a little smooch. that night I had a profound out of body experience I've never been able to repeat. a guide actually came and escorted me to a retrieval after asking me where I'd like to go, and do what. she was so familiar, like very close to me, could even have been another me. so I think what images we hold as visuals, they can work very good to gain experience in these areas, much better than experimenting with drugs, as thats what we are doing with drugs, or I was, experimenting.

now, in my other life if a spirit was bugging me, I'd just say "git thee from me satan" however, things have changed in this century; now its "welcome to my enlightened living room, may I escort you to focus 23 or 27?

we're going out for thai food tonite...I wonder if my daughter will pick up the check? :D

hugs, say, I could use a few physicists in my living room now and then. alysia

Dave,

Thanks for the comments.  The post in the off topic forum was my first encounter with a nasty spirit.  I would describe it more as a feeling of a dark cloud of malevolence or dread, without a true conversation.  It surrounded the bed, and as I said, I felt or actually was turned in bed as if on a spit (I truly couldn't recall when I shook it off if it happened or not.

I did a few hallucinogens in college and I agree.  One should avoid them unless you have a rock solid mental state and can wait it out for the drug to wear off.  I preferred mushrooms way back then as they were more colorful experiences and very short acting.  Once, however, walking from Chinatown in NYC all the way uptown to Columbia Univ. where my dorm was, a friend and I had a "bad trip," where it was literally like walking through a hell (dark skyscrapers around midtown after 1 in the morning provided a great background).  And we both knew the "trip" wouldn't end anytime soon.  Awful.  

I'm not sure if I agree that doing dumb things as a youth is an indication of a dark entity or spirit.  Its part of life.  In fact, I think it is a bit of a cop out to say that everyone making serious mistakes in their lives or in trouble has interfering entities attached to them.  Free will is the rule, right?  Oh except, your honor if my hang-along dark energies were to blame!  (kidding)

Mairlyn said it best.  If we state an affirmation for the highest good, and if, like Kathy we have that "feeling," that nothing can interfere with us, then as Dave noted, we can deny entry of any of these energies into our spheres of influence (hey, how did you like me weaving Kathy, Dave and Mairlyn into the same sentence?).

Dave, I have a Sharper image ionic breeze air cleaner.  Would that cleanse a room?  Unfortunately, the room I feel was most affected we are planning to turn over to my three year old... Dave exactly how does alcohol, poured and ignited over salt ionize the air?  Not sure about that one.


Best to all.

Matthew

Matthew said, "hey, how did you like me weaving Kathy, Dave and Mairlyn into the same sentence?"

Hey, Matt,

You got it going on!

That is all great advice, and if that dark cloud pulls a fast one on you again, well, you know what to do, even after a 360 degree turnaround....you already proved that to yourself, right?

:)

love, blink

Dear Dave, Kathy, Alysia, Matthew and Blink,

I've little to add to the discussion, but I thought, now here's a gathering of some terrific people, thought I'll just drop in to say hi.

And as always, I would advocate the promotion of public awareness and education on such matters (of multidimensionality, conscientiology, etc) as an important (and quite compulsory) step to improving the difficulty of intrusion, on a larger or long-term scale.

This is primarily because, the problem of intrusion, is that by the very nature of the problem, it is trans-physical. Because it is certainly not an exclusively intraphysical problem, nor an exclusively extraphysical problem. The 'spirits' (ie. extraphysicals, human or otherwise) are not the problem or 'the enemy', as some might mistakenly think; because the people (ie. intraphysicals, specifically the afflicted) have by their own habit patterns, thosenes and energies, (albeit usually unwittingly) participated in or have invited the intrusion (for instance, by the ways or habit patterns described by Dave and Matthew in their posts), and the intraphysicals are the ones sustaining the intrusive, parasitic and unhealthy relationship (of intrusion, attachment, possession, etc).

Usually, in many or unfortunately the majority of cases, the extraphysical intruders (and bear in mind nested intrusion is not at all uncommon) are themselves unable or unwilling to break through, change or evolve away from the intrusive relationship on their own; and that the efforts of the guides & helpers alone are not usually sufficient, due to the strong energetic links of the intrusive relationship; therefore, the key to releasing intrusion, to healing both the intruder and intruded, must (in most cases, compulsorily) lie on the intraphysical side of the equation.

(Louise Ireland Frey's "Freeing the Captives" is a meaninful title; for the "captives" refer not only to the afflicted people (ie. intraphysicals), but more accurately to the intruders themselves (ie. extraphysicals), whom (both) are equally "captives" to the intrusive, parasitic, unhealthy relationship).

For this above-discussed reason, indeed the very basis for intrusion, there needs to be widespread understanding (without dogma, fear and superstition) on the intraphysical side of the equation; human society as a whole must understand that *they* themselves, are *not* the 'victims' of 'evil spirits', but are themselves the 1-half of the pair of hands that clap to the tune of intrusion.

From the viewpoint of the intruders, the extraphysicals and the guides & helpers; they are (consciously or unwittingly) seeking or crying out for help, by the very act of intrusion. Dave has spoken on this, but more people (ie. not just on forums such as these, but all of humanity!) need to understand this correctly.

And that (the prerequisite for widespread education on these matters, would be the willingness to let go of old, limiting belief-systems and habit patterns, to go beyond the fear into clarity), is the tricky, but quite frankly, compulsory step which must be taken by humanity as a whole, if the problem of intrusion is to be effectively solved, for the benefit of all, intraphysicals and extraphysicals, all.

Let us not be naively hopeful nor idealistic; nor be resigned to despondence, nonchalance or fanatism. But because this is a step that *must* be taken, a direction that *must* be worked on, let us all, individually and collectively, intraphysically and extraphysically, do our part in any way possible, in any way appropriate, and in any way helpful, to make the Universe a more beautiful place to be, because every being is worth it.


Love,
Kyo

Kyo said:

Quote:

This is primarily because, the problem of intrusion, is that by the very nature of the problem, it is trans-physical. Because it is certainly not an exclusively intraphysical problem, nor an exclusively extraphysical problem. The 'spirits' (ie. extraphysicals, human or otherwise) are not the problem or 'the enemy', as some might mistakenly think; because the people (ie. intraphysicals, specifically the afflicted) have by their own habit patterns, thosenes and energies, (albeit usually unwittingly) participated in or have invited the intrusion (for instance, by the ways or habit patterns described by Dave and Matthew in their posts), and the intraphysicals are the ones sustaining the intrusive, parasitic and unhealthy relationship (of intrusion, attachment, possession, etc). Usually, in many or unfortunately the majority of cases, the extraphysical intruders (and bear in mind nested intrusion is not at all uncommon) are themselves unable or unwilling to break through, change or evolve away from the intrusive relationship on their own; and that the efforts of the guides & helpers alone are not usually sufficient, due to the strong energetic links of the intrusive relationship; therefore, the key to releasing intrusion, to healing both the intruder and intruded, must (in most cases, compulsorily) lie on the intraphysical side of the equation.

Dear Kyo,

It is very good to hear your words of wisdom.  I'm glad you popped in to say hi!

It never ceases to both amaze and please me to see how so much of who we are or what we believe we are, revolves around our relationships and how these relationships are a mirror reflecting back to us so that we may further evolve and individualize our divinity.

For the most part I understand the energetic distortions we create because of fearful beliefs we hold and how we can heal these, but I'm curious about the extraphysical intruders and how they may be healed once they are free from the relationship?  Certainly retrievals may play a role with some, but what about others?  In what ways can they be exposed to and learn from the "light" so to speak?

Say for example, if we were to begin to feel a fondness or unconditional love for these beings, would that help them to evolve from their darkness?  Would they have any understanding of this?  Or desire for this?  Is the way they are a result of fear?  If so how did they learn to fear?  LOL :-) so many questions I have here...

The reason I'm asking these questions is because as I read your post I suddenly felt a deep compassion and tenderness for these beings almost as though they were calling out for help or something like that and I'm curious to know what ways they may be helped aside from the intraphysical letting go of the relationship.

Again, thank you for your very informative post.

Love, Kathy :-)

A key point of understanding I think is how to discern when an incarnate entity makes mistakes or has obsessions or makes "dumb decisions," on their own volition or how often there are "interfering entities."  

On the one hand, one can say that if one indulges in poor decision making that intruders may be attracted to come along.  On the other hand, free will dictates that our decisions are our own.  As I said in my other post, I don't like to make the assumption that ALL episodes of anti-cosmoethical action are the result of "tag alongs," or intruders and require a spirit release.  I do agree with appealing to the higher self for help in problems.


The issue is important because of personal responsibility.  If we, as consciential beings are meant to learn and love it would make sense if the majority of our interactions and our decisions were ours alone.  If some in Focus 23 are "along for the ride," and scared, we should recognize it.  But how often does this occur?

Since there are infinite spheres and planes, then if a stuck entity in focus 23 or a hell continues to indulge in anticosmoethical behaviour, are there inter-etheric beings attached to him as well?  How often can we use the phrase "the devil made me do it," before we accept personal responsibility for our actions?

Take addictions as an example.  Those addicted to gambling or sex.  They may become so obsessed that they neglect their occupations in the physical world, and damage loved ones in the process.  Could they not have these obsessions as a result of their own decision making combined with environmental factors?  Do they all have to have negative spirits attached to them urging them to continue with the obsession?

I for one believe that we ARE complex in nature, and that we can't assume that extra-physicals are mucking about with our daily lives when things go wrong.  I do not discount the possibility that they do attach to people; it makes sense to me.  But I post this to inject a word of caution in overinterpreting the phenomenon.

If extraphysicals/intruders are prevelent, they likely have little to no power but the ability to tag along for the ride, as Dave used the term.  In order for free will to mean anything, it must be free.

Matthew

Kathy,

I also am glad Kyo came in.  I always hope that when matters of comsoethos are brought up, he'll be in the conversation. Kyo your post was quite enlightening.

M

Hi I think that when dark entitys are hanging around,one they could still be feeling jealous of the fact that there not getting earthly pleasures anymore,so try to cause havoc to such as us on the earth plain.

They dont like it much ,if you are working very close in the light of God and gives them another reason to try and take you off this path of light into darkness ,were they seem to be,

I had an encounter the other week ,when these dark spirits stood in my bedroom.and God put a silver wall around me and a silver cross in front of me and changed them into angels,as i prayed to god for love,light and protection,which i do every night.

They are sad misguided spirits,that have lost there way to the light and salvation of God.

Love and God bless you all Juditha

I'm glad also Kyo joined us as he is far more knowledgable in these areas of attachment of spirits than I. I think I was nonchalant too much in my comments, but Dave makes me feel that way :D  just kidding.  I am still figuring out the astral realms versus the higher realms sensing the dividing line is not that great to consider the PUL energy those into retrieving are aware it does work to clear up situations like attachment.
I had something similar happen many years ago such as Doc mentions, the body manipulation but since the experience turned itself into a positive learning situation for me both spiritually and C1 decision capability, I did rather celebrate rather than grow into more fearfulness.  and to say Kyo does arouse in me the desire to remain compassionate and helpful towards those negs that are really asking for my help despite they go about it in strange ways perhaps...resist not evil, just look beyond it, you can see the urge to survive is built into even a neg seeking its rightful place "to be."  perhaps in the times ahead we can all make a giant step forward into understanding spiritual areas and the focus levels. I am hopeful as I continue to see signs of a shift in consciousness, or minds that are opening to greater awareness of these areas. at least, I hope and suspect it is not just me noticing this.

not that I am so lovey dovey naive as I might once have been to not see what wishes to be harmful and intrusive in its penchant for misleading itself. yet I am a course in miracles student/teacher and I have come to value that there are only two emotions; love or fear, you can't express easily both at the same time, so we can study what the energy is really saying to us if we find it in our house asking for attention. and Kyo is right again, that if there be a spirit around you, you have unwittingly or consciously called it to you for your understanding. fear not, as your higher self is well versed in the lesson plan.

Doc, we all were given free will and a decision making capability. but yet many will continue to believe (whether physical beings or nonphysical) that there is not free will, and so they are stuck in that limiting belief. I like your train of thought about making decisions as it is very important to me to recognize I have a choice. it may then be a question of each person within these situations of attachments to examine their personal power issues and whether they are giving in to subtle voices to be led and not realize these are not their true thoughts. in some cases you will find extreme cases in the court system who will say this is what happened, they did hear a voice and so they try to pass the buck or project the guilt unto the voice as they believe they could not resist the voice. is this part of us that we cannot own ourselves and so another owns us?  instruction is necessary to build discernment of spirits and assist them.

don't worry, we'll get the job done! theres always been retrievals down thru the centuries and angel visitations and such, I believe the old fashioned way, that everyone has an angel on their shoulder, as well a little guy with a pitchfork on the other. and we are not to fret and worry as it only takes one person to change the entire world. my opinion, to state every little drop of love is important to change things and effect one another. love to all, its a great thread, alysia

This is so helpful to me to listen to all of you on this subject today. I spontaneously found myself in conversation with a co-worker yesterday who thinks she is going crazy because there is spirit activity in her home and there are objects being moved around in a mischevious manner. She has a form of compulsive neatness and she knows exactly where and how everything is placed in her home, as well as at the workplace.  She doesn't know quite what to do, and she is having some very unpleasant dreams as well. Although she prays and has surrounded herself with religious candles, etc., she is still frightened.

From what I hear you all saying, the fear is the first issue to address. To let go of fear, have compassion for the "intruder" and to see what positive action can be taken. Although my friend has spoken to the "intruder" to let whomever it is know that she can sense the presence she just didn't know how to influence it.  Basically, she has expressed to the "intruder" only her annoyance.  But her emotions around being startled and surprised by these occurrences are very real and disturbing.

I suggested that she take up some meditation when she wakes from her nightmares, and that she continue to talk to the spirit and encourage it to move away into the light. However, I'm not sure if there is something I am missing here. It seems almost equally important for her to recognize her own internal power in a positive way, losing the defensiveness, even in the face of an unpleasant situation.  Easier said than done sometimes.

love, blink

The interesting thing is Francis Crick discovered the double-helix structure of DNA while he was on LSD;

http://www.hallucinogens.com/lsd/francis-crick.html

In Graham Hancock's book Supernatural he researches the phenomena - people that trip on drugs (lots of clinic drug trail tests covered in the book) or go into trance state through dance eg. the San and the Bushmen ... all experience the same visual place.  That is; they all record the same state of awareness .. namely snakes, reptiles, strange diagrams, computer number print outs, strange alien looking creatures; the ancient San and Bushmen slightly different but Hancock draws a parallel between the two from the Rock Art the San and Bushmen left behind.

The question is ... Is this (altered state) common experience a place outside the mind or is it a place inside the mind?

Review of the book;
http://dailygrail.com/node/2113

I don't know what role LSD may have played in the formation of the double helix hypothesis of the structure of DNA, but I think the evolution of the model was a little more complicated than is implied in the LSD article. For a long time folks thought the proteins were the important part. Several people were trying to come up with a working model, which would clearly guarantee one's place in history. Linus Pauling was also working on a model. And of course the crucial role of Rosalind Franklin was always played down by Watson and Crick. Here's a note on  her:

http://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/franklin.html


I just don't think Crick sat around popping LSD and thinking up double helices. Franklin did the real work:

http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BC/Rosalind_Franklin.html

Just my opinion.

Supernatural sounds interesting but as to your question...I'm still stuck on some things Gary Renard wrote...the claim is that reality is all just a projection and "we" are just watching it, so I'm not sure how to define inside or outside the mind...both are just projections.

Good question Caryn and one that skeptics like to say "is reality out there or inside?"
isn't this question like which came first the chicken or the egg?
and Lucy you always inspire me. I do believe its all a projection on the mind screen, then if reality is not out there to find awareness is everything and the observer is watching a movie in the theater of life. one day after we eat the popcorn, pee our pants from watching the horror movies, fall in love while watching the romance movies, get our heads kinked up from watching "what the Bleep"  we all go home hopefully thinking wow, thats entertainment.

I like what Dave wrote.

I agree with Doc when he says that a person should take self responsibility before blaming things on an outside entity. If a person is a really loving person, I don't see how some outside entity could change them by sending them negative thoughts. A wise and loving person would know to not take such thoughts seriously.

Regarding kundalini, if a negative minded person starts fulling around with it they might get messed around with by a negative minded spirit. Also, if they start releasing fears before they are ready to deal with them, some negative minded spirits might use this fear to mess with them.

However, kundalini and chakras aren't something that exist by accident. They were created by divine forces so people in the physical can make contact with the positive forces of the spirit World. If a person runs into problems when they awaken it without being ready, this person most likely runs into problems that his or her mind created.  

For a while I was wondering if a negative minded spirit can mess with a person who has awakened kundalini that has reached his or her crown. I wondered about this, because when I consider the light energy I experience when it reaches my crown, and when I consider the power with which it goes after anything that doesn't belong (e.g., blocks), I don't know why it would allow some unwanted spirit to hang around.

I asked about this and had a dream. In the dream an unfriendly spirit tried to attack me and a light being I was doing retrievels with. A lady who symbolized kundalini and the positive spiritual forces kundalini connects to stopped this unfriendly spirit from attacking us.

I also had an experience while awake. I experienced all this white light energy coming out of me. The thought spiritual muscle came to mind. Next I was shown "Smuscle." After that I was shown a jar of Miracle Whip. The label said "Recoverer's Miracle Whip." Guidance can be funny at times.

Has anybody found out the same thing? Kathy and Alysia already talked about this a bit on another forum.

I almost forgot about this thread.

Mathew, I agree with you about personal responsibility.  I have never seen any kind of negative influence tag along with someone such as an alcoholic or drug user.  That doesn't mean they don't exist though.

To me it seems too easy to blame inappropriate behavior on a negative influence, demon or whatever.  "The devil made me do it."  I'm not saying they don't exist, but I wonder if the negative influence is a fragment of the person because of their own fears.  If we can split our energies, then it would seem that these could fragment into the so called darker forces because of our own fear.  In that case, it would be an aspect of the person.

I truly do not know.  I would think that some vibrations would not, could not be attracted to other vibrations unless the person created them their self.

Love, Kathy

you're correct Kathy, that the neg is self created from within the person's own world of allowance of that by default. I can say you are correct because of a personal experience with a friend. my friend had desires, thoughts, that he thought he shouldn't have and not knowing how to deal with his strong urges he disowned them into what he called an ID. he placed these feelings there and in his dreams his ID followed him nonetheless. he had made it into a beast like thing of low intelligence, like a caveman thing. he would often spar and fight it in the astral. it was very real and life like to him.
I did a practice retrieval on him and failed but I had to try anyway and at least I let him know somebody believed in him and cared about him. so maybe thats a success for me, that I expressed myself to him, it was quite a journey for me to do this.

"I believe in angels, something good in everything I see"...

Hannah's tag, love it!..alysia

Hi All

Lucy thank you for the information on Rosalind Franklin (im sure she would have appreciated your recognition in gratitude)  So Crick, Watson and Wilkins received the Nobel Prize in 1962 four years after Rosalind's passing.  As the report said the above three beat her to publication of the findings of the DNA structure.  Seems bully tactics were in play here .. Always though nothing can take away the truth of what happened.  Well done Rosalind.

Therefore Crick is recognised for LSD experiments.  It is in this context that Hancock writes about him.  The phenomena of 'drug land'. Hancock is of the thought we should be allowed to experiment through drugs (i say this with the greatest respects to Hancock who is always researching)

I agree with what Gary Renard has to say (don't know of him though) Reality is a projection of our thoughts .. our thoughts being spirit.  Therefore reality (spiritual and physical) is a projection of spirit.  Further i think; our projections need to be validated.  I do believe the validation is very important.  And this validation comes from a source outside of us.

However, in the context of the question: Is this (altered state) common experience a place outside the mind or is it a place inside the mind? Is related to this place that people who alter their minds go to or it comes to them.  They all experience the same location when in an altered mind state either drug or trance.  It is a strange place and with further use of drugs people it seems people are able to progress further receiving intellectual information (as Crick).

There is an interesting correlation between old fashioned fairy circles and alien abductions; saying aliens are modern day fairies. And the correlation between old Rock Art and modern day 'tripping' visuals is extremely interesting.

Hancock has no conclusion in the book except the interesting correlation he puts forward :  The Junk DNA in our make-up (80% if im correct Antwhs?) could be a dimension of reality that is switched on with the use of drugs or extreme trance.  Still not quite answering the question is it in us or does it dwell out us though (taking our thought projections into account still)... maybe it depends on what part of our DNA we switch on?

I highly recommend the book "The Field," to you, Caryn - if you haven't read it.  The idea is that through several different paths and scientific investigations,  people have stumbled onto a sort of all penetrating field which may contain both energy and information.  In mystical terms, this has been called the "all that is," however there are ways to demonstrate its existence scientifically.  Years ago, it used to be referred to as "ether," until, that concept was temporarily unseated.


It strikes me that drug induced or not, many people access the frequencies required to obtain inspirational information.  Some famous albeit brilliant scientists will say it came to them in a dream.  They woke up and jotted down a diagram.  Others will say it happened while relaxed on holiday.  Inspiration is a very very odd and unusual topic.

I believe that remote viewers, famous scientists, and many of us who have moments of inspiration or insight are all accessing this available information in one way or another.  I don't think there is anything special about LSD or any other hallucinogen in transmitting this data; in fact, the loss of rational thought and logic associated with LSD would make the translation of the inspirational thought possibly more difficult to "bring back," to the physical plane.  


Matthew

The Field sounds fascinating Doc. will put that on my reading list. u use the word stumbled and I remember being a hippie on LSD and stumbling into a sort of field of energy; a huge net like fence was I seeing; so real was it, my partner did not see it and said we could walk through it and we did, and this surprised me that it faded away. drugs were a dead end for me and all the time I was receiving guidance to be very moderate and cautious for many die through their use. but this fence of energetic composition reminded me of myself as Mind on film. all of me, for example was not thrust into the movie here. just a little individual, like alice in wonderland did wander here caught in the net, an allusion of being caught or held back. I say all of me was not here. I knew I was more than alice in wonderland and that myself watched myself, and that she was a part of god and even though I was "bad" to indulge in drugs for enlightenment or experimentation with my inner world, she would allow me this adventure and I would be forgiven automatically. still I don't reccommend drugs; they are divorced from spiritual premise for the most part and gives not much to the general public as the experiences are so personally designed and hard to share.

and I knew I wanted children and was afraid I would mess up their chromosones should I continue this way. so far as I know they are fine and I did not damage my brain cells. I hope. :o as a matter of fact I don't even use aspirin so turned off am I on any drug, unless its a herb and has not been touched by any but my own hand.

all that aside I read ACIM which is a heart path I'm convinced. it says and I've come to believe time/space is existant only in or minds. we have made all of this up. of coure my verifiable experience is personal, I do the dreaming true thing where I glide into events within dream which later happen the way I've dreamed them. then I did suppose at least for certain events in linear time, I have planned this on another level with my greater self. that doesn't mean I don't have my share of unpleasant surprises as I go along learning how to make the movie have a happy ending. so following my thought if u will, time is connected to space or location. location is your question; does the kingdom within exist out there? is seeming to be Caryn's question and I note she has asked this twice. (we are connected since our PE) observe when in space (a location) the astronaut comes back to earth young, while his wife is now old. this is food for thought. my other thought is that on the other side you "think" yourself to a location, while here we get in the car and drive there with a body tucked inside another mechanical vehicle. the body is mechanical too. there would appear that time/distance/location is the movie, the allusion and we buy it lock, stock and barrel for the sheer adventure perhaps. so it takes time to get around here, but instantly on the other side you may arrive, which leads me back to being a unit of awareness encased in belief systems by my own choice living this particular life time which is temporary.

love to all; the adventure continues..alysia :o ;) :)

Hi again - I feel out of touch - I have a satellite uplink at home (in the woods where DSLs dare not go as yet) and also one in my office, The office one works OK, but the home one is only useful 40-50% of the time, mostly between 10 PM and 10 AM. So I was unable to follow the development of this thread after starting it, hardly a responsible way tobe.

I agree with Kyo and Doc. I never met a "dark entity" that I disliked. The problem was getting in touch sufficiently to be able to communicate. That meant overcoming their anxiety about new experiences etc, and convincing them that I actually had useful information about a superior option, as opposed to keeping on being a bother. The key to this seems to be a loving and accepting attitude, precisely the thing that the entity has usually lost sight of.

Entities are pervasive, but they generally have no power. They surround us like the fog on a cool morning, but are generally unable to touch anything that is not already defined as identical to themselves. Hence, they have no power, only the ability to assent. If I want to yield to my baser emotions and get angry, depressed etc, that often flows in the same channel as the entity's own feelings, but it's never the entity's fault when I make a decision. Their power is substantially less than a bad TV commercial.

Juditha's report of watching entities hovering around her get turned into angels is very much to the point. If we do our job of retrieval properly, that's exactly what we accomplish. The essential "stuff" out of which all this cosmos has been made remains "God-stuff", initially a single creative impulse that has interacted with itself to produce us all, but nevertheless, it is still "God-stuff". To persuade one of these self-styled "dark beings" to examine that tiny innermost point of light in the center of its existence, and to allow that light to expand, is generally  all that it takes for the process to invert, so that the "dark being" becomes a being of light.  I have the impression, Juditha, that you are going through a period of accelerated growth. More power to you!

I like the ionizer idea, Matt.  I have one in my car that does a great job handlng my allergies. That would probably be sufficient to disturb the air to where it becomes difficult to support the state definitions of an entity. The other techniques of which I'm aware usually rely on flame, since that's ionizing. The bowl of Epsom salts and alcohol, either denatured or dubbing type, was suggested by a woman who also uses it as a prop. The basic idea is that small amounts of sodium ions etc are picked up and dispersed into the air.

If you are really curious, you might make up a simple electroscope - a paper clip poked through a plastic cup like an antenna, with the bottom bent into an "L" on which to hang some aluminum foil strips so that they can freely move to repel one another. Shuffle your feet on the rug and touch the top of the clip, and the foil strips should repel. Then try out your de-ionizer, using a stopwatch to estimate the time to discharge the electroscope foils.

Having made one, I can guarantee that the electroscope part works fine, but I've never timed the discharge rate. I'd be interested in whatever you conclude. This might be a useful adjunct to the practice of entity workers.
love-
dave

Hi Dave,

I doubt many ions are released if you burn alcohol over table salt IMHO.  The ionic breeze by sharper image produces a charge to particles in the air and creates a bit of ozone in the process.  

I have to say I'm not sure why spirits would vacate due to ions in the air.  But stranger things have been mentioned.  Robert Bruce, the astral avenger writes that garlic will stave off spirits (truth in myth), and that dark spirits will not cross running water.  Is that why I can relax in the shower?  Kidding.  He has even advocated setting up a system of tubes or pipes of running water around your bed or room as your own "magic circle of protection from what he calls "negs."   For me, it sounds a bit forced.  These are, afterall nonphysical negatives we are talking of.  What the heck do they care about running water, or garlic or ions.  Maybe it is the reinforcing of the belief in those who circle themselves with protection that truly provides protection.

Much like you, Dave,  mentioned in sealing an intent by drinking a small vial of water.   If I say: "by putting out garlic or ions, I hereby will not allow any negatives around this area" - it may take better, because it enters your belief deep down by sealing the intent with something in the physical realm.  

You won't catch me skipping over any streams in the near future unless I'm chasing my soon to be four year old!

Matthew

Alright, since we're on the topic of dark entities I have to throw this experience in the ring and see if anyone can come up with an explanation.  This has been a mystery for me for many years.

When I was in my 20's I used to pray and meditate under a cold shower.  Believe it or not this would really help to focus the mind.  Especially if you could completely forget about the cold.  One day when I was praying for a friend of mine who had been diagnosed with a serious eye problem and was about to loose her eyesight I began to feel an overwhelming energy which gave me more and more confidence that I could heal her eventhough she was hundreds of miles away.  The energy level grew until I "knew" that the healing was going to take place then suddenly I was attacked by what I can only describe as a mass of "pure" hatred.  It was truly frightening.  It caught me so off guard that I opened my eyes and placed my face directly in the stream of cold water to escape this being with so much hate.  Looking back on this experience I feel bad that I didn't take on this fight and actually heal this person.  How this could have happened I don't have a clue but if I hadn't encountered this mass of hatred I'm confident that's what would have happened.  If anyone has any insights about this please let me know.  Are there beings out there that have so much contempt for anything good that they would feel the need to attack and prevent a healing?

Very educational thread by the way.  Thanks to all of you.
Rick

Matthew and Dave you sound like Alchemists!! what with this and that mixed in that spread over this to do that lol pulling your legs  ;) interesting to be sure though.

Yes, yes Alysia and Matthew i agree spiritual is beyond drugs with out a doubt - a natural high we could say!  chemical drugs will end a life very quickly without a doubt.  It's just interesting how they change the metabolism into a common ground (i wont say it again lol!) So it's better to rise above and find and see things in a natural way rather.  I enjoyed your analogies Alysia .. time transformed into light really hey ...

And the question is it in or is it out .. i think we must start listening to the entities that are coming through more often now (Victor Zammit's site) and ask them ... i do believe the chemical way is in and the natural way is out ... :)

Phew Rick that was an experience .. it does sound similiar to mine.  Think we have to ask the Alchemists to mix us a brew here! I have two Rosemary shrubs outside my front door .. i've heard that helps repel any negative energy floating around.

All in good faith and with love to everyone.

Quote:

The energy level grew until I "knew" that the healing was going to take place then suddenly I was attacked by what I can only describe as a mass of "pure" hatred.

Hi Rick,

What you connected with was most likely the other person's self-hatred that was causing her disease.  It seems this occured in much the same way as an empath would 'feel' the energy of another.  You releasing this into the light for her certainly may have helped her to heal the disease because it could have cleared the way for healing to take place.

I can see how more understanding of these things is needed.  Like Kyo mentioned, we need to give up our old and limiting beliefs in regards to these things.  Perhaps demons, dark entities, etc. exist because we have believed in them through a lack of explanation and understanding.

Love to all,
Kathy

Hi Rick,
I too was hit by the thought that she didn't want to be healed, that perhaps she needed the assistance from others, the attention and  caring that her affliction would get her, she thinks. (I knew someone like that and it worked for her for over 50 years.)
I do believe that running water affects the flow of the transmitted messages tho, and that her emotional flow might have been broken and exaggerated by spurts and bursts that got through.
My guidance told me   :-? not to pray in the shower, to save it for singing  ;D--- if I had too.
bets

Greetings again,
Now I'm wondering about fumes, fumes from garlic or anything.
Isn't a spirit in sort of a fume-like state, easily inter-mingled by other fumes?  Wouldn't they be highly suseptible to fumes, highly sensitive to whether the fumes are repellent or enticing, since it has te capability to intermingle with the spirit's own field?

For Example, since garlic is high in Vita-C and is used almost as an antiseptic to clean wooden cutting boards, discourage insects, etc, why wouldn't a spirit also dislike the gassy fumes it emits?  :P I don't like them and I'm a big solid; my body is more impervious to fumes than a spirit's or even an infant's body would be.

 :) I vote for more research on fumes, their positive and negative ions, the organic solids that dissolved into fumes, and what this means to spirits of various natures. Where's SuperChef Paul Prudhomme when we need him?!
bets

mediastreamer wrote on Aug 31^st, 2006 at 1:15am:

Are there beings out there that have so much contempt for anything good that they would feel the need to attack and prevent a healing?

There are all kinds of beings of all kinds of natures with all kinds of issues. You can read more about some of these beings and their interactions with intraphysical humans, in these excerpts from 3 books on this subject (of spirit releasement).


Quote:

What you connected with was most likely the other person's self-hatred that was causing her disease.

It might be that alone, or just as possibly, *as well as* an intrusive entity with whom the subject had difficulties and/or karmic issues with. You see (and this is important for *everyone* to realize), as within, so without. This might be seen as one aspect of the 'law of attraction', or the principle of energetic resonance.

The reality is that it is seldom (or perhaps never) the simplified scenario of purely within (wholly internal and/or symbolic of self), nor seldom (or perhaps never) the simplified scenario of purely without (ie. Matthew's "the devil made me do it, I'm so not responsible! I was helplessly possessed!"). Because of the extremely complex, dynamic and open manner of interactions on all levels, psychic and energetic, between consciousnesses and beings of all levels, natures and types, coexisting in a interlinked, interconnected collective reality (in which each consciousness exists on the border of relativity between subjectivity and objectivity), it should surprise no one, that intrusion (including the factual, undeniable and strong exacerbative influence of intrusive energies on one's actions, behaviour and therefore karma; of which Matthew understandably takes issue with; but it is really no more outrageous than the similar influence of intraphysical delinquent company on a teenager), is almost always the result of the clapping of two hands - internal and external.

That is to say, no one is an innocent victim of intrusion, and most importantly, no one is a helpless victim of intrusion. Yes, there are intruders (ie. external entities intruding, attaching, possessing), this is an undeniable reality. But this (fact) by itself isn't the problem. It's a situation, much like physical and biological disease. Natural, only in that it is indicative of an imbalance away from the higher natural, ie. the more ideal state of health.

To answer your question more directly then,

Quote:

Are there beings out there that have so much contempt for anything good that they would feel the need to attack and prevent a healing?

Yes, there are. But again, they are not by themselves the real problem. The real problem (as far as your own self-responsibility is concerned) is when you give in to the False Evidence Appearing as Real (FEAR), and you fear them. This is foolish, because in truth you have nothing to fear. Because as far as you're concerned, your own karma, your own energies, your own soul, your own universe is concerned, you are the No.1 most powerful being in *your* universe, infinitely more powerful than any external extraphysical being, whether they be intrusive or helpful/guiding, the less-helpful "negative entity / dark force entity / demonic" or the more evolved helpful "beings of light / angelic / archangelic / evolutionary orientors / council of elders / ascended masters / Serenissimus", etc.


Kathy wrote :

Quote:

Perhaps demons, dark entities, etc. exist because we have believed in them through a lack of explanation and understanding.

Quite right. It is also exactly as Eckhart Tolle said, in Augoeideian's signature,

Quote:

A stone is also God, but it doesn't know it. And precisely because it doesn't know it, it is a stone.

These have been labelled "demonic", "dark force entities" or "negs", not only because, and not so much because, of the lack of understanding, clarity and love from people who coin these terms, but more directly, from the lack of understanding, clarity and self-love from these beings *themselves*.

While different authors or people might have been referring to somewhat different classes of beings in their use of such labels (for instance, these usually do not refer to human souls regardless of degree of corruption, but (usually referring to) other non-human beings, energies of consciousnesses who have never been human, of varying 'malevolence', which is really nothing more than a lack of self-love; for instance, the 'dark brothers' or 'fallen angels' who were originally from the angelic group, not the human group; or other similarly extremely (relatively speaking, of course) 'dark' or coarse vibrationed entities from other parts of the galaxy that intrude on, possess or control various 'malevolent' extraterrestrial groups, etc; to the relatively sub-human, low-level, annoying little 'negs' that Robert Bruce speaks of, some of these have been created by negative thoughtforms and negative thosenes (thoughts, sentiments and energies) of humans and other sentient beings; or the neutral 'psycho-viruses' or 'karmic homunculi' that have been created to serve the execution of negative karma, etc; a wide range of beings exist, that have been accurately or inaccurately labelled "negative entity", "dark force entity" or "demonic"); but...

... But herein when we get to the fundamental and essential bottomline of things, it is as we have said it before (by many people here, including Dave and Gordon Phinn), when you get right down to the crux of it,

There are *no* such thing as a real "demon" or "dark entity", only a being which due to lack of clarity and self-love, falsely and in confusion imagines itself or its nature to be "demonic" or "dark".

As Dave, William Baldwin, Edith Fiore, Louise Ireland Frey and all other practicing clinical psychologists who assist via various spirit releasement methods, have invariably found without exception in the course of their work, all entities, human or non-human, no matter how confused or fearful, no matter how deep the intrusion or complex the nesting (ie. intrusion within intrusion within intrusion, etc); will have within its core, within its seed, within its most fundamental essence of being, of soul, of its existence, the spark of Light. The spark of God. The spark of Oneness with All-That-Is, with the entire Cosmos.

The 'Turning' of any (entity who in confusion imagined itself to be a) 'dark one', is always a deeply moving, powerful moment, in which the cloak of shadows is cast off and a whole new life, existence and journey of light begins. (See "Healing Lost Souls" pages 90 - 91).

(Note : Internet Explorer will scale down the image; mouse cursor over the bottom right of the image, and click to enlarge to original size).



Quote:

Looking back on this experience I feel bad that I didn't take on this fight and actually heal this person.

So ideally, you would, in that situation, realize that you have absolutely nothing to fear from such an energy of hatred (regardless of whether it was merely the patient's own hatred or an intrusive one), because you are far far more powerful than any extraphysical being; and you would instead of 'fighting it' (a polemic approach which would be akin to 'fighting for peace' or 'f**king for virginity'; it simply doesn't work), you would invoke the assistance of the guides, helpers, technicians, angels and other beings of light that specialize in the deintrusion and releasement process, and working collaboratively with them, invite both the intraphysical patient/subject as well as, if appropriate and if the guides/helpers communicate such, the intrusive, confused, 'dark' entity of 'hatred' or 'anger', which is really nothing more than 'pain' and 'suffering' and lack of self-love, to practice clarification (see the Work of Byron Katie; an essential read for all beings intraphysical and extraphysical alike!), to release the fear (false evidence appearing as real) and the confusion, and to clarify it with, and into, Love.

Once the releasement process is complete, the healing of the physical/medical aliment can proceed more efficiently and effectively without psychic/energetic disturbance. In some cases the releasement by itself is sufficient to heal the medical difficulty.

But it is always strongly recommended, that the diet be changed to a healthy one. The environment in today's 'modernized', industralized world, is highly toxic, biochemically speaking. This is why viruses and bacteria, whom are evolutionary speaking our helpers, are forced to 'cause disease', where in reality there are only assisting in the detoxification process.

Cooked foods, particularly fats/oils and proteins, present in milk, vegetables and meat, cause health difficulties when ingested. This is because

1) cooked fats store toxins, instead of cleansing the body tissues (as raw fats do).
2) carcinogenic compounds (eg. nitrosamines) are created in the denaturation of proteins and the heating of fats/oils past body temperature.
3) the human body, like all animals, are unable (naturally) to work effectively with the altered biochemistry of cooked foods.

The paragpraphs above may seem as if a digression in this thread, but where physical aliments or medical conditions are concerned, regardless of the karmic nature or intrusive associations if any, the physical/biochemical basis must simultaneously be looked at, for a wholistic and effective healing.

Those interested in healthy foods, see the work of "Aajonus Vonderplanitz", and Hilarion's comments on this.


Those further interested in my views and further materials on these and many other subjects, please be welcomed to visit my website :
http://infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/main.htm


Live, Love and Prosper!  ;)
Kyo

Hi Kyo-  - Always a word of wisdom. I'm glad to be a vegetarian. Solves one part of the puzzle.

Rick- This may be pertinent to your experience. I do deep hypnotic regression sessions, often with younger women, and I was initially puzzled why some of these women seemed apprehensive, yet as we worked I'd get a strong positive sexual feeling. Aside from the fact that sexually messing with psych patients is a felony in California (should be so everywhere, I think! And for all the healing arts. - I had a friend whose husband was an OBGYN, and who frequently brough home samples of the latest STDs to her, acquired through practices that I find reprehensible.) I was too interested in what was happening to get personal, and I recognized and resisted the implied ethical violation. So I just did my job. The conclusion, after watching and wondering about this for a few years, was that it represents what is sometimes called the "law of opposites". What I was tapping into was the anxiety of my subjects as they allowed themselves to abandon their defensiveness. To them the sensation was one of threat. That was essentially what I was feeling, except that I was in the role of being the perceived source, hence the feeling of sexual impulse felt like it was originating from me, whereas to my patients it was as if I was threatening to impose it upon them.

Having finally understood what is going on, I now make it a point to be non-threatening, to always work from the side (never from the front) of people, with a table or desk between us etc. At the same time I have noticed that from some people I get a sense of hostility, anxiety, and so on, always depending upon what their fears seem to be. So, now that I have my sensations calibrated properly, when I feel hostile I know that someone is fearful of being attacked etc, and all the other emotional states that people bring seem to fit the same pattern.

In your case, I'd guess that what was happening was that the sense of your involvement had linked you to your friend, but you picked up the emotion of fear and rejection that we often feel when we are beset by unpleasant circumstances. These were sensed as threats by your friend, but by your being in a position of responding, they projected onto you as if they were somehow internal to you.

Another example of the same kind of thing (and a pet peeve of mine) might be the response of Bush versus Ahmandinajad (spelling?) and the Iranian nuke program. First, the factual stuff: When I took 1st semester physics, I used the Halliday and Resnic physics text that reviewed the separaion process for U235 from U238 by centrifge and osmosis. It takes roughly 4000 passes through the system to get separation, at perhaps 24-48 hours per pass. The US took roughly a year to develop enough U235 to make a bomb, using a plant roughly 1/2 square mile in area. Saling that to Iran we can figure that they'll need 2 - 4 years per bomb. So they probably have 1 regula nuke, more or less. This means a typical 20 KT weapon. How dangerous? The physics of a bomb means that the explosion fills a sphere of hot gas. Or you can imagine it to be a cube, if you like.)  To make the sphere twice as big you need the cube of the increase, or 8 times as much energy. Comparing that to a 1 ton TNT bunker buster, which knocks down buildings for roughly 100 feet, and kills unprotected people for roughly 500 feet, we have about 20000 times the energy, capable of the cube root of 20000 times the destruction, or only 27 times a much damage. So the Iranian nuke will be roughly as dangerous as 27 copies of a 1 ton TNT weapon. (Most of the energy is reflected into space and atmospheric heating.)

Iranian Pres Ahmad... feels threatened, especially in light of the Iraq invasion, and projects this threat as hostility. Bush is involved, feels the sense of fear emanating from Amad... as hostility, feels threatened, and he too projects hostility, absorbed by Amad... who feels even more threatened etc. Both of these guys really want a peaceful world in which they can raise their granchildren, but they are approaching it, as Kyo put it, by waging war for peace  - patting the water to get rid of ripples and waves. However, while they're sensing one another's vibes, rather than dealing with the real central issues, they'll tend to escalate the present impasse. As for the Iranian Bomb? It's mostly a psychological weapon, and would lose a lot of power if anyone really thought it through. (The tremendous damage and loss of life in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was due to flammable houses. Not blast effects, nor radiation. Fire bombing Tokyo killed many times that number of people.) The Iranian nuke would destroy or seriously damage buildings in a city  over roughly a half mile radius - about 4 city blocks in al directions. That's a very nasty weapon, but 27 bunker busters would do more damage.

In just the same way, Rick, if you had attacked the sensation of hostility, you'd have been playing into the hands of the negative emotions. As it is, you backed off, had a look, and now are free to examine and evaluate. If, at some future time, you sense the same kind of thing, you now can decide how best to handle it to avoid exacerbating the negative factors by getting involved in sensational emotions, which means that next time you'll be a lot better equipped to actually perform the healing.

No if we can only get the Bush Administraion to be rational, instead of emotional!

PUL (the only solution)-
dave

Dave, my friend,

I hate to talk politics on these boards, but as you brought it up, I'll make it as brief as I can.  You know my respect for you and your opinions knows no bounds (quite true).

However, in saying:  " Both of these guys really want a peaceful world in which they can raise their granchildren, but they are approaching it, as Kyo put it, by waging war for peace."

This statement doesn't hold up.  A little known fact is that when Ahmedinajad came to power, he began to spend lavish amounts of money on erecting structures for the return of a "hidden" Imam said to return during Armageddon.  New edifices, temples, etc.  This Imam is said to return only during a cataclysm that will sweep Islam in across the globe in a most violent way.    If this is his goal, he may not at all care if a nuclear bomb or WWIII explodes, as this has been prophecized.  Have you seen photographs of palestinian children at age 2 or 3 dressed as suicide bombers, proudly by their parents?  Or learning to count dead Israelis (this was shown on Arabic TV ).  It was said by a famous Israeli politician: "when will the conflict end?  It will end when the other side decides that they  love their children and their lives more than they want to destroy us."

Up until now, wars had been fought over many things, however now there are people who wish to kill or maim innocent noncombatants to spread fear and terror.  We should all stand against this, but not equate this with Bush's failed administration.  Despite Bush's many failings, he did not deliberately kill noncombatants at random; civilians were unfortunately and through poor judgement killed, but if it were in a random vicious manner, it would have happened over a few days instead of years.  


I agree with your statement about the Iranian president feeling threatened and the downward spiral with Bush.  It might do well to project PUL to both leaders.  However, the philosphy that espouses destruction of noncombatants and terror must be denounced by both sides in order to go forward.  No matter how much we want PUL to solve the real problems here on earth, we must not lose sight of what Kyo has termed the cosmoethical option or "right path," to act.  

To get back to the negative spirits;  I do agree that negative spirits as Kyo stated may see themselves as negatives, and it may be a matter as Dave and Kyo say of re-educating them.  Still, I wonder if they can transform themselves into light so quickly, without any sort of karmic consequence or atonement; I just don't know.  

Matthew

Hi Doc-
Motives arise from a desire for betterment - either positive reinforcement, to get a goody, or negative reinforcement, to remove a baddy. (Punishers are generally ineffective and can usually be ignored.) To be so blind that one sees only war and conflict, and the putative glory of conquest, may convince us to do stupid things, but in the end, even our stupid errors are still efforts toward improvement. That others use this blindness to convince people do kill themselves or others is just another way to gain their idea of betterment. Of course after several generations of conflict, that's most of what many people know, and if your only resources look like nails, then the natural response is to select tactics that look like a hammer.

I suggest that we have three specific needs to fill. The first is universal love, whether a person happens to be a child molester, suicide bomber, military aggressor or terrified disembodied spirit. The second is universal unity, accepting everyone and everything as part of the present manifestation of God. Third, is insight and wisdom, in the words of Marcus Aurelius, "To perceive things just as they are," even if we would prefer something else.

Were I to stand on your toes with one foot while kicking you in the shins with the other it would be very difficult to view me as a potentially decent human being, or to love me, or to enlighten me as to the karmic results of the situation.  That's the essence of the situation. People who are caught up in sensing hostility, rage, anger and fear, and who are trying to return a level of threat intended to make others back off, are unlikely to be loving, nurturant or wise, but that's still their basic need. In fact, it turns out that it takes more courage to be loving, acceptng and helpful than to toss rocks at those who bug us. I feel that most of these leaders lack that much courage because they are so fearful, and because the fear regenerates over and over as they attempt to "get tough" by making others fearful, so that they themselves have no idea what's happening to them.

It isn't a political problem, but the ancient problem of getting along with others. It began when another kid took our shovel in the sandbox, and continues until we finally are able to see our own faces in those pictures of  suicide bombers who threaten us. Only then will we be able to de-escalate this cycle of violence.

dave

"Would that God, the gift t'gie us, to see ourselves as others see us." Famous poet - Scottish I believe.  Always liked that line.  I'm blanking on his name.  We all agree, Dave with those principles; love, unity and perception or epiphany.  At least I think we all should.

Since our souls, our essence is immortal, we could say "let's not get tough with terrorists - let us invite them to sit down and see/talk of peace and peace for all our children."  If they chose to still war and wreak havoc....well at least we tried to be ethical.  If we and our families were wiped out - our souls would still persist and move on to other experiences.  Do you see the problem here (I'm not trying to be funny)?

The conversations about negative spirits keeps coming back to good and evil, dualism.  And, in the end, how to act in the modern world if we know that all are one, and that PUL is the true answer.  I like the Bhagavad Gita, where the warrior Arjuna, about to engage in a mega battle sees all the death and destruction that is to come and loses the will to fight.  The god Krishna then engages him in discussion and encourages him to play his part in this, telling him that one can be spiritually aware, aware of unity but still forced into action in the physical plane.  

So, I agree with the concepts of love, dialogue and forgiveness.  I merely repeat that the most cosmoethical action may sometimes be to dive into the dualism on earth, knowing that one's hand is forced, but that it is the ethical thing to do.


Matthew

Dear God, Shower the world with blessed rain, to wash away the tears of violence and fear,to refresh and lay love across our planet earth. Thankyou Father. amen

this conversation reminds me of a good social worker/angel undercover works that I know. what she does is walk in the shoes of her client for a few minutes, or maybe it's Spock's mind meld thing. I don't know how she does it, but she speaks to the worst of humanity, not in judgment to make them defend their self. she lowers her vibrations down to their level because she doesn't usually think the kind of thoughts they do as she doesn't have fearful thoughts. when she tones her light down, they are not blinded by the truth and can see she is on their side and so they will concede they can do better than what has gone before because she is projecting that they are ok where they are now. a miracle is a change of mind. thats all we really need from those who owe society a debt; is their change of mind and it only takes one good social worker to change the world. love, alysia :)

Kyo the clarity of your words has put the subject of hostility into perfect perspective with a master piece quality of writing. With deepest gratitude to you.

Dave and Matthew your insights are invaluable to my understanding of our human nature.  I do believe individual and world problems are caused by thinking about self instead of cosmoethics.

To quote Dave:
"Abandon their defensiveness. To them the sensation was one of threat."

To me this sums up human nature.  The insecurity within self not to abandon their defensive mechanisms and perceive outside interference or influence as a threat to self. Which is a selfish notion and goes against the grain of nature. Self cannot control or manipulate and expect a successful outcome.

This is why Jesus Christ told the people .. Surrender thy will unto God.  

May God guide our leaders and may the leaders listen with open hearts.

Hi Dave thanks for what you wrote to me .Love to you and God bless you Juditha

(First a technicality - the danger level is actually 27^2, because it's a surface, so engineering types won't bug me about my sloppy math. That's 314 @ 2000 lb bunker busters. Still not worth a war.)

Well, Matthew, in my estimation, the reason we've got this tiger by its tail is karmic.

The problem of karma is that our actions involve an entire situation, so that we are at the core of a vast network of causes and effects that radiate outward. I, as a hostile and aggressive actor am surrounded by others who attempt to live with me by making my aggression less dangerous (usually by a "If you hit me, I'll hit you back," kind of strategy) and at the same time, they espouse values quite similar to mine, to which I reciprocate in kind. Thus we work together in a sort of armed truce. It is irrational to suggest that I can simply turn away from this scene and embrace total love, unless I am willing to sacrifice myself totally, as Jesus did. Instead, the apropriate path is de-escalation by adopting mutual endeavors that everybody can share profitably, and which interfere with conflict.

For example, a commonwealth or  collectivity of some sort, that involves all nations, tends to reduce their tendencies to fight each other. Hence the UN has probably been useful in reducing the global danger level, just as was the League of Nations before it. And to the degree that nations alienate themselves from their neighbors, they become liable to squabbles, bad neighbors among nations, just as we see with individual people who are friendly, and those who are hostile.

The degree to which our escape from the karma of past actions can be accomplished is the degree to which we are each able to soak up the B*** S*** dumped on us by less astute people, and still respond to them in a loving manner, accepting them as part of our own nature, and with the realization that this is the best practice for all parties concerned, so that we all can get on with the basic business of living, which is to become more God-like.

The degree to which we perpetuate hostility is the degree to which we are unable to accept being the Dumpee, and respond by some kind of defensive or aggressive action, so that we become the Dumper. That provokes threat, so it's an imperfect solution, like patting the waves to quiet them. The LEAST perfect approach is to try to kill the people who are bothering us. The next worst thing is to try to rearrange their lives and households to be the way we would prefer them to be. However, for some reason, each of us always seems to feel that it's easier to rearrange Your life than the remove the problems with Mine.

The result of this karmic entanglement is that we must very slowly and carefully extricate ourselves, and in the process accept a full ration of the damage that we had previously caused others, which is why the radial network of negative emotions emerged in the first place. Like the Vedic spider that first spins its web, and later eats it up in order to spin a new web. This is rarely a comfortable realization, because it means that we must take total responsibility for our actions, regardless of what others have done to us. But isn't that what PUL is all about? And no matter how hard it is to envision that guy with the fire bomb in his hand, or with an explosive waistcoat, as part of God, we deny our own Godliness if we deny his. This might not be to our preferences, but it's the way things are, and only after we collectively accept that can we move onward to peace.

dave

Kyo - thanks so much for your wisdom here.

Dave and Matthew - very interesting arguments.  I'll have to re-read the entire thread before I add more comments.

Alysia,

Quote:

...it only takes one good social worker to change the world.

I love that comment.  I showed your post to my wife (who does social work and teaches GED).  I think you have a new friend.

Rick

mediastreamer wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2006 at 10:19am:

Kyo - thanks so much for your wisdom here. Dave and Matthew - very interesting arguments.  I'll have to re-read the entire thread before I add more comments. Alysia, Quote: ...it only takes one good social worker to change the world. I love that comment.  I showed your post to my wife (who does social work and teaches GED).  I think you have a new friend. Rick

yea, I meet social workers all the time out there...cool peoples! ;)