i am glad i read the site so i have names for the places i have been going.  i had names for them to, but couldn't accurately distinguish the layers.  i used to call it "the land of no lies" because everything is written right on peoples bodies and its all obvious.

i have a problem that i cant seem to extricate myself from, so perhaps someone will have some insight.  

my brain doesn't really work correctly- it causes episodes of major depression often.  i have tried all sorts of solutions, but they were not solutions.  the problem is i spend so much time not in the earth dimension, that i feel i have work to do there and none to do here.  obviously that must be wrong, right?  but i cant get my brain to reconcile it.  you see, people are sometimes so mean.  maybe i make them mean, or think they are mean, i dont know.  but i cant help thinking that this isnt the world.  ive tried to fix my attitude and my brain, but it always comes back.  i always end up wanting to renegotiate my contract.  i dont even really know what i expect anyone to say about this.  ive asked everyone in the higher dimensions about it and have gotten a mixed response.

the absolute worst thing of all is that no one ever believes me.  especially doctors- they say i am hallucinating.  it just makes me not want to be here.
i hope this post isnt too crazy and that it doesn't bug anyone.  theres just no one else i could talk to about it.  

Hi greenwater,

Your post makes perfect sense to me...

It can be so difficult at times to be "less happy" than you think you "should" be here in this "reality" we consider our material world.  I can relate perfectly to your desire to spend a lot of time in the other realms.  However, there is much beauty here in this world too and I think it is very important to establish connections that are meaningful and lasting with other people here on the earth, with the beauty, laughter, hope and love that are some of the gifts you can find here.  This life has so much to teach each of us.

So, here you are on this forum with many like-minded souls. You have my love, here at this moment, my understanding, and my hope that you can find everything for which you search. We are all searching in life and, to my way of understanding, that is, essentially, our purpose....to search, to learn, to love...

Please share with us all that you find in your other realms, and share your heart and your thoughts here as well. There are many here who are immensely interested in what you have to say, whether or not they reply to you directly.  In any case, there are a group of explorers here much like you in many ways, I'm sure, and I, as well as others who will read your posts, wish you welcome.

much love to you, blink

i could write encyclopedias of all that i witnessed on the plane.  i feel like it would be too much to bombard people with. for instance the time i went to the white aliens on the planet with a mercury shield, and they were looking for the 'male breast' and they had a human there on the table.  everything there was white and shiny silver.  the mercury shield protected them from rays.

or the other time when i invoked the archangel michael, because i had an important question, and all over the fourth dimension (as i called it) i put his name, and i turned the lights out in the whole city and wrote his name in light on the sidewalk, and lo and behold, up from the subway tunnel stairs he walked.  surely a lower frequency representation.  and i wanted to ask him if i could be in his army in the end of days.  and i saw that i wouldnt be, but i was standing with a scroll among lots of others, and that was my job.  everything was white.  i made a painting of him coming up from the subway.  it wasnt michael but one of his forms.  my sister had to have the painting so eventually i gave it to her.

this is the kind of stuff i get to do.  thousands of scenes, people, places.  all sorts of good info- on transportation, especially.  i know how to get around.  

Greenwater,

I like your Michael story. Sounds like something I would do, write their name everywhere to get their attention. And I like his answer. You might be specializing as a Keeper of Records or an Historian. We all have roles to play in the Earth school.

I find there are very few people locally I can talk to about my other world
experiences. It's not even that people might think I'm a little bit out there,
it's just that they simply can't relate. They are understandably skeptical.

I, too, have suffered from depression since college. It's genetic as it runs
in my family. One thing, though, is that my spiritual exploration has made me
happier or at least more able to handle Here. I have a healthy perspective on the negativity and illusion here. And I know there is something inside myself that can survive anything thrown at it.

Nothing beats a trip to the mental plane, but then after a few minutes of bliss, I like coming back and enjoying creation here, too. There's a lot of work to be done in the realm of time and space - and an eternity to enjoy the other stuff.

-mike

Hi Greenwater,

First, you are not alone in how you feel.  This is important.  There may be a practical side to maake the most out of your current life and still pursue the "higher planes."  Part of this is up to you.  You don't state how old you are, or what if any job you have.  However, I believe that you have an artistic soul - from your description.  A career that let you explore this might help remove some, but not all of the reality based hum drum responsibilities in C1.  

We are quite literally our thoughts, and we should therefore cultivate our thoughts toward finer things like love and beauty.  Blink alluded to this.  There is much beauty in your physical world too.  Seek it, immerse yourself in it.  Happiness is possible if you allow yourself to experience it.  I'm a physician, and well aware of the neurochemical and genetic predisposition toward depression.  However, I have come to believe in the human soul.  As such, I believe that recurrent depression comes from a spiritual imbalance, or unreasonable expectations that we put on ourselves (as well as society putting it on us).  Once we are familiar with our connection with spirit, with our ability to love, and be loved, with our subtle but definite ability to impress intention on our subconscious connection with the universe, things begin to go our way.  We become "captains of our own ships," instead of hapless sailors tossed on a tempest sea.  

So take heart.  You can speak your mind here, and get support.  Never think of yourself as one buffeted about by life;  it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  There are solutions for the sorrow of which you speak.

Best to you,

Matthew

welcome to the forum greenwater, please feel free to say anything you wish to share. my first thought when you described Archangel Michael was that you are stationed here as a portal among many others to help out with the shift in consciousness and its a lonely area, but I feel you wanted to help out during this time. the portal basically just lets the light into the earth, grounding it wherever they are as an energy. they don't get rewarded for it though because it was a choice of their own.
I believe all portals have like a tracking device and the depression will lift in time as they monitor your progress in "waking up." I think you are with archangel Michaels wave and you received this info almost too soon to be able to assimilate it into your belief system so you might be suffering crash symptoms...you may have to read some of the literature here to understand what a belief system crash is.  some people are going to think I'm crazy and you are crazy, but hey, I've always been crazy but its kept me from going insane (a song for you, lol)

I don't think being nuts is genetic btw. never blame the body. its just a bunch of cells and dna, and cells and dna can be changed by the mind powers and the grace of our higher selves. hang in, it gets better...really!!!

hugs, alysia

welcome to the forum.  i just joined too.  :)

i hope u have a beautiful time here.

it is a blessed place.:)

afterl

Welcome Greenwater,

This is a loving and knowledgeable forum and I feel you will get help here. I like what Mendel said and also Doc M, well everyone. ;-)  I too have had bouts of depression since I was about 25. I think there are a lot of us.

Blessings, Mairlyn ;-)

Welcome afterl. So happy to see new members.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Hello Greenwater:

You mentioned Michael's Army. I'm not certain why you mentioned this. Perhaps you believe the book of Revelations is about something that is going to happen. When I recently read Revelations it seemed clear that it pertained to the time in which it was written.  A lot of Biblical scholars agree with this viewpoint. If you consider all of the problems Christians had during the time period in which it was written, it is hard to figure why they would write about something so far in the future. 666 was Nero Caesar's number.

Here's a really good article that supports what I just wrote.

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html


 

thank u so much for the warm welcome Marilyn.

Greenwater - i sent you a private message with some personal thoughts on AA Michael.

love, after

I wonder if genetics is the cause of depression.

Dr. John Sarno found that many physical ailments such as back pain have psychological origins rather than physical origins. For example, studies have been done which show that many people have herniated discs but don't experience back pain, while many people don't have herniated discs but do experience back pain.

I used to have lower back, upper back and neck pain that didn't go away until I got rid of the psychological issues that caused my energy to be blocked and produce pain. I know of people who couldn't get rid of their back pain through things such as drugs, surgery and physical therapy, but did get rid of it when they dealt with the psychological causes.

Dr. Sarno found that such a mind body connection can also be found when it comes to things such as depression.

I believe that in western medicine there is way too much emphasis on physical diagnosis, and not near enough emphasis on psychological diagnosis. Things such as drugs and cortisone shots go after the symptoms, not the cause.

Of course it might be hard to get the medical community to change their approach in mass, because many doctors "along" with their patients don't want to deal with psyschological issues. It is much easier and simpler to pop a pill, do physical therapy, or even get surgery; the later when it comes to people who just don't want to look at certain psychological issues.

Some people might argue the genetic viewpoint because some of their family members also experience depression.  Is there always such a correspondence? Are there people who suffer depression who don't have immediate family members who also suffer depression? Are there people who don't suffer depression who do have immediate family members who suffer depression?  Is it possible that siblings sometimes experience depression because they grew up in the same negative environment, or took on some of the psychological tendencies of their depressed parent or parents?

It is important to not put the cart before the horse. Are the polypeptides that relate to depression produced without a psychological cue, or with a psychological cue, similar to how fear is produced when circumstances or beliefs cause us to be afraid? Sometimes 24/7.

If you are wondering about the body. mind connection to illness, try Louise Hay's book "you can heal your body"
You can see what is happening at an emotional level by reading about each physical ailment and reading with an honest and open mind will give you an insight into what you can do to help yourself to improve pain
some eg's would be breast pain - not nuturing yourself=too busy nurturing others
foot pain can be afraid of moving forward in life
lower back pain is often about family issues and money issues
It is a wonderful insight into how we bring the emotional pain into the physical
Cotisone shots can damage connective tissue permantly and while only some patients get relief, the long term problems are usually overlooked. I always tell me clients to get the facts on any medication or research procedures before going for them. Trouble is, most people don't realise that there alternatives. the negative is never widely advertised for obvious reasons

any way, a big welcome to all the newbies
love to all
cathy B

Cathy B:

I know a person who got rid of sciatica he had for years through psychological means, and he was a Louise Haye fan. I haven't read her.

Hi greenwater,
to be in two worlds, "out there" and here, is causing me problems too sometimes. Related to the things to explore there, the actions that are possible there, the world here can be perceived as boring, exhausting and mean. That's why I'm busy to explore over there to understand why I'm here in the physical. I've got many bits and pieces, and they make me stay here.

What I suggest is to try to find personal helpers over there. Persons/beings who are there especially for you. Your personal guides, or if you prefer, guardian angel(s).
Similar to this, try to find your soul group, the group of people you have a bond with in the nonphysical. To find such people in the physical may be possible, but informations about it, as far as I know, are not always permitted to be given to you, as well as informations about details of your future. My guides have repeatedly said to me that I must formulate what I want to, then they can help to perform it, otherwise not, they are not willing or allowed to want me to do something. If you meet someone over there who is behaving like wanting you to act after his/her will without that you resonate with it, then it's no guide.
Try to find something like your real home, your higher self.
So, in general, start or continue to be proactive in the "4th dimension", that means seek for experiences which you can understand and which would help you to understand why you're here.
Don't let yourself put under pressure because you "function not in the right way" in the physical. I know from personal experience that people can judge you quite badly, but finally the hardest judge am I for myself. When I let them put me down. When I allow myself to feel guilty. When I permit again negative thoughts. Many people here have told the great possibilities and effects of positive thoughts.
Oh and, try to receive, feel pure unconditional love. When you're out there the next time, ask for someone to radiate it to you. Maybe you must practice a bit, many people must, me included, but it is possible to get better at it. You are the most important one, don't forget it, it's true.

Spooky

I did a real quick search and found this article which states that depression isn't genetic.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4574076-110648,00.html

Here are some of the key reasons:

The depression gene along with the genes for most mental illnesses have not been found.

For twins only half of a pair tends to experience depression.

Women are twice as likely to suffer than men.

Poor mothers with small children are eight times as likely as rich men.

Young people are three to 10 times more likely to suffer depression now than before.

A study amongst 800 British women found the following:
-Half of severely sexually abused girls were depressed.
-41% of physically abused women were depressed.
-One third of emotionally neglected women were depressed.
-Only 8% of women who hadn't experienced any of the above difficulties, were depressed.

It isn't uncommon for people to feel like something is bothering them without understanding what exactly it is that is bothering them. This is because unconscious psychological issues can cause a person to feel unwanted emotions without such issues finding their way into a person's conscious mind.

My feeling is that physical and emotional symptoms that can't be linked to a "definite" physical disorder, are an alarm to a psychological issue that needs to be looked at. To ignore such an issue is to curtail one's spiritual growth.

thank you Spooky for your words.

it was really enlightening to read your reply.

i just came across this website as Adrian Cooper and others from the astralpulse.com forum had nice words about Bruce.  i read some of the articles on this website already.  they talk about some changes and a decrease in population.  those were probabilities 25 years ago, i don't think that has to happen today, as things have changed.  any thought on that one?

you talked about the "4th dimension".

when you used the term "dimension" you mean that there are 4, 7, 12 dimensions?

what does the term dimension mean to you?

some people say every dimension can have lots of spirit levels to it, like focus levels.

thank you,
after

Hi after,
I just quoted greenwater when I wrote "4th dimension". I just used it as a sort to say "not in the physical". I don't want to state something about how many dimensions, planes, levels or whatever one calls it do exist because I don't know it and probably will never know. I see those systems in an arbitrary way. For example I use the TMI model, as it gave me the start to explorations, mind journeys, and I think it's useful. But I wouldn't go that far to say it is "the truth". It are suggestions (in the TMI case supported by those audio patterns) to focus on certain aspects of perception, or to fade out some aspects of perception. Then, on my own, I developed a feeling for different nonphysical places and have experienced things which are not in the TMI system. So, everyone is free to name own dimensions/places/levels etc., and is also free to use a system as a suggestion for meditation to get a start. There always comes the point when the student has to go own ways.

About how population will develop, and Earth Changes and such, I have not really knowledge that seems firm to me to tell. In one (or two) mind journey(s) where I attempted to go far in the future, maybe a thousand years I don't know exactly, there indeed people were living not as concentrated in cities as now, more spread, in simple huts, no highways, decentralistic, there was still rudimental industry but only sparely. It was simple, but looked not really poor.

Spooky

thanks Spooky for your sharing.

it is always extremely fascinating to read future time projections.

one thing which baffles me is that i have studied this in depth and i found that in a group of 100 people projecting to 2500 or 3000 AD we get very different futures.

this makes me wonder about what people are seeing.

are they seeing probabilities?

are they seeing a future life of theirs and how the civilization where they will be born looks like?

some claim that there could be a spirit which renders itself invisible implants visions and sceneries in our journeys.  So how do we know those who pretend to be benevolent aliens and guides are actually that?  how do we know what we see is accurate or something else?

that strange voice in focus 35 where someone talks to an alien group consciousness sounds to me very suspicious.  from other books it is clear that demonic entities can shapeshift into something very exotic and create all kinds of illusions in order to make their message come from an "authority" and make people believe in that future that serves their interests - in this case destroying and recycling the earth civilization, moving us to the stone age again.

i wonder how important should discernment be - and how do u personally find the fine line between discernment and paranoia.

after

Hi Afterl,

>>>makes me wonder about what people are seeing<<< we don't know what people are seeing. In this mind-journeys, meditations etc. regarding the future there is a bunch of possibilities what it is that one is perceiving, it could be
--actually a view into the future
--a symbolic view into the future
--a view at the own expectations and/or beliefs/disbeliefs, fears, hopes, open or symbolic
--a view at things which the individual is dealing currently with and interpreting it as view into the future
--or of other sources, for other reasons, we can call it noise.
I go along with McMoneagle. He says, the target hit rate of remote viewers is pretty poor (which doesn't mean it isn't usable, but you have to build in control mechanisms). So, I would never rely on perceptions regarding the far future. You just don't know how precise they are. Remote viewings within the present (or nearby) are difficult enough, so far future events are much more difficult to see, maybe because it's not fixed, maybe only because we have no words for things, states, conditions that we never heard of nor understand, and of course we catch up many things that not necessarily have something to do with the target we want informations of.
Another thing, when we hear of desastrous scenarios of the far future, I always remind people to remember that we must die physically anyway, so we should care about what's important to do in the present to influence the very near future in a beneficial way.

>>>there could be a spirit which renders itself invisible implants visions and sceneries in our journeys<<< this is a possibility you never theoretically close out, but you also can't close out that the fear of deceiving entities is not founded in reality. Because this is so, I suggest a practical approach on this:
1. If you have no firm confirmation of a belief that is dragging you down, get rid of that belief.
2. If you want to discern a helper from a supposed "bad guy", open up to your feeling, just as you would in the physical. Do you feel comfortable with this entity? Have you the feeling this entity belongs in some way to you? Do you feel love coming from the entity? If not, say bye and go elsewhere to find a lovely entity.

>>>from other books it is clear that demonic entities can shapeshift into something very exotic and create all kinds of illusions<<< Shapeshifting is the most common thing in the nonphysical- at least in some areas. I do appear to others in unexpected ways over there, others to me. I can create things in the nonphysical. Regarding beings from far away, it is almost normal that we see them probably not as others from another corner of the universe would see them. But finally, this is not a big problem when we only accept that we perceive differently due to where we come from. What you cannot fake is love, you may it call differently, radiation of joy, healing energy or whatever, because once you experience this, you just know that it is real, and you want that it is real. Because you know it is good for you. Asking if something is "really real" is not leading to an answer, because it is principally impossible to prove any reality of it's realness. You can build a system where only you exists and nobody can prove to you the opposite. Once you realize that you have this freedom, you will realize that you are the one who choses what to accept and what not, and I would try to build me a world in which I feel I can be the way I want to be. Mainly, this is the absence of fear, and the presence of love.

Spooky

"demonic entities"

from my experience, demons arent demons.  i've tried.  


"discernment"
i have needed to develop a tool to determine who's who out there, and i find that it works.  when i am in the company of an individual who is not being obvious about their motives or who might be up to no good, i just mention a particular holy name, because no bad intentioned being can coexist with it.  it grosses them out.  then i laugh.  
there is no way to determine if a being is incorrect, though.  but the tool allows me to appropriately assess lots of situations.

recoverer wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 3:29pm:

Hello Greenwater: You mentioned Michael's Army. I'm not certain why you mentioned this. Perhaps you believe the book of Revelations is about something that is going to happen. When I recently read Revelations it seemed clear that it pertained to the time in which it was written.  A lot of Biblical scholars agree with this viewpoint. If you consider all of the problems Christians had during the time period in which it was written, it is hard to figure why they would write about something so far in the future. 666 was Nero Caesar's number. Here's a really good article that supports what I just wrote. http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html

I have never really bought into the whole Roman argument.  It could possibly be a dual prophecy, pertaining to then and today, but I doubt it.  The Roman Empire, as large as it was, was not the sole controller of the world as the Anti-Christ and Beast are in Revelations.  The Romans did not even control all lands that were known to the people of that time.  Only in today's world do you have that sort of possibility, with true globalism, the UN, small groups of people making decisions affecting every nation on the earth.  

Nero was also far from being the last of the great persecutors of the Church.  Diocletian, Domitian, and many others followed.  Revelations clearly states that after the defined anti-Christ is overthrown WITH the beast, it would be followed by a thousand year reign of Christ on earth.  The Roman empire did not fall with Nero, was far from ending its persecution of the Church, and when it did fall in the west in 476 the world was a mass of chaos...hardly the age of peace with Christ at the helm.

There are also other references, such as the matter of the Resurrected body, described in Old Testament books like Ezekiel, evidenced by Christ in his own resurrected body (road to Emmaus, visit with Thomas, visit with Mary Magdelane in the garden, etc.), and described in a consistent manner in Revelations...whereby everyone gets back their physical bodies, albeit in a new and "upgraded" form, at the end of the world through the intervention of God.  It is a body that has complete harmony with spirit and matter, able to do things far beyond the mundane physical body that we know here, but yet physical in nature.  Obviously, nothing of the kind has happened on the earth yet.

Furthermore, where is the final appearance of the Devil that follows the thousand year reign?  If Nero was the antichrist, then what about the final battle with the devil himself?

I've read alot of the interpretations in light of the Roman Empire, but it comes up really cold when you read the actual text itself in light of the rest of the biblical texts...I still believe fully that it is a vision of the end times, done in vivid symbols.

The people of the time may have even drawn conclusions to their contemporary world, but then again they also thought that Christ's second coming was to occur in their lifetimes in the first century AD.  It would not be the first time that the time issue was misinterpreted.

The way it does transpire and fulfill Revelations could be something completely unexpected, in the same way that Christ fulfilled every one of the old testament prophecies in a manner that even the community of his time did not understand (as they were expecting a warrior-conquerer as opposed to a sacrifical, non-violent lamb...expecting a messiah who would overthrow the romans, not one who came to redeem both Gentile and Jew of all ages in time).  

It is still interesting to speculate, however.

greenwater wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:50pm:

i am glad i read the site so i have names for the places i have been going.  i had names for them to, but couldn't accurately distinguish the layers.  i used to call it "the land of no lies" because everything is written right on peoples bodies and its all obvious. i have a problem that i cant seem to extricate myself from, so perhaps someone will have some insight.   my brain doesn't really work correctly- it causes episodes of major depression often.  i have tried all sorts of solutions, but they were not solutions.  the problem is i spend so much time not in the earth dimension, that i feel i have work to do there and none to do here.  obviously that must be wrong, right?  but i cant get my brain to reconcile it.  you see, people are sometimes so mean.  maybe i make them mean, or think they are mean, i dont know.  but i cant help thinking that this isnt the world.  ive tried to fix my attitude and my brain, but it always comes back.  i always end up wanting to renegotiate my contract.  i dont even really know what i expect anyone to say about this.  ive asked everyone in the higher dimensions about it and have gotten a mixed response. the absolute worst thing of all is that no one ever believes me.  especially doctors- they say i am hallucinating.  it just makes me not want to be here. i hope this post isnt too crazy and that it doesn't bug anyone.  theres just no one else i could talk to about it.

It's not crazy Greenwater, a lot of people living here are afraid of "the unknown". They don't know what to expect, don't see what you see or feel what you feel.
Fear is mostly packed in a paper because they don't want others to see they're afraid. Beïng afraid is "weak" and that is also something they are afraid of.
That paper they packed their feelings in is colored like rejection, mean words and making the "propheter of the unknown" seem like a crazy person.
Don't let those papers they use to shield themselves be your problem. It's their way of shielding themselves from something they don't want to know.

I'm quite carfull talking/writing about the things I think to know, simply because of those reactions..
Love, Daan.

Newwayknight:

The article I provided explains about some of the things you brought up.

I don't believe that revelations is actually about a war in heaven, because I don't believe that negative minded beings could travel to heaven and start a war.  Heaven is a realm which is reserved for evolved beings who vibrate with God's love energy.

Sometimes the Bible would mystify mundane things. At times durring later versions. For example, is you read the early Hebrew version of Isaiah you'll find that that it speaks of a fallen king of Babylon, not a fallen angel.  It wasn't until Jerome was commissioned to do new translations around 400 AD that fallen angel language was added. If you look at the symbology that is used in Revelations, clearly it pertains to things that were physically going on at the time.

Are there more holes in the futuristic interpretation or historical interpretation? And what would people from the time be more concerned about?

I believe that people who believe in the futuristic interpretation have a hard time thoroughly questioning it because 1) they are afraid that if they seriously open themselves up to a non futuristic interpretation, they'll open themselves up to satan; 2) they are attached to the idea that they'll be one of God's few chosen ones when the rapture supposedly happens; and 3) they consider the issue with preconceived ideas, and don't realize how much such preconceived ideas are influencing them. Even a bio computer has a tendency to limit its search to the information it has access to.

I find it really hard to believe that a being of infinite love and wisdom such as God would set things up so that a minority percentage of the human population will be allowed to go with Jesus on a certain day while a majority of people will have to go through seven years of tribulation before eventually having to go to hell for all of eternity despite their good hearts and good intentions, simply because they haven't come around to believing in "a particular" religious philosophy.

How about the "love your neighbor as yourself" viewpoint? Can one really say that one is living in such a way if they feel happy with a belief system which suggests that many good hearted, well meaning people are going to end up spending all of eternity in hell simply because the circumstance of their life (for example the family they were born into) didn't lead them to the point where they took on a particular belief system?

Can one say that one is really living in such a way when they feel as if they don't have to worry about things such as the environment and natural resources, because the rapture is going to bring everthing to an end anyway?

Can one say that one is really living in such a way when they feel it is okay to demonize entire groups of people simply because they don't believe in a particular way?

Is it loving to point fingers and accuse people of being 666?

If satan and his army actually exists, then why doesn't Michael and his army of angels take care of them right away, as opposed to allowing them to corrupt millions of innocent people first? Certainly God is too wise and loving to make life a big test that millions of people fail miserably. And if so many people fail, why?

If the concept of satan is actually true, it may be that Jesus has already defeated him. Consider the below from Hebrews 2:14. Several translations have been provided.

Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

Parallel Verses


ASV: Since then the children are sharers in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same; that through death he might bring to nought him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

BBE: And because the children are flesh and blood, he took a body himself and became like them; so that by his death he might put an end to him who had the power of death, that is to say, the Evil One;

DBY: Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same, that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil;

KJV: Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

WEY: Since then the children referred to are all alike sharers in perishable human nature, He Himself also, in the same way, took on Him a share of it, in order that through death He might render powerless him who had authority over death, that is, the Devil,

WBS: Since then the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

WEB: Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

YLT: Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

Hi recoverer,

here are some of my thoughts regarding some points you made...they are in light of my own beliefs and understanding, and merely here to clarify what I personally believe and think.

:)


>>The article I provided explains about some of the things you brought up. >>

I did read that article, but it largely fails to address the reality that the "beast" was not overthrown with Nero and nor was Nero the only "anti-Christ", as Rome continued forward with persecuting Christians with emperors like Diocletian and Domitian.  No 1000 year reign of Christ, no allowance for the final war with the Devil after that period, etc.  This is where I depart from attempts to place revelations strictly in a contemporary sense.  The writers may have written in a contemporary language, but like I said, they were expecting the second coming almost immediatley as well.  



>>I don't believe that revelations is actually about a war in heaven, because I don't believe that negative minded beings could travel to heaven and start a war.  Heaven is a realm which is reserved for evolved beings who vibrate with God's love energy. >>

Negative beings did not travel to heaven to start a war, they became self-willed in a negative sense and then fell, were cast out, etc.  The war in heaven, referenced in Christian writings and the Bible, is really mysterious, and is largely a matter of interpretation and faith, but it does mesh with what seems to be quite evidential of "negative beings", demons, etc.  There is a ton of evidence that these "negative beings" have a hierarchy and order...Malachi Martin's Hostage to the Devil provides some tremendous insights into this hierarchy as revealed in several independent exorcism cases.



>>Sometimes the Bible would mystify mundane things. At times durring later versions. For example, is you read the early Hebrew version of Isaiah you'll find that that it speaks of a fallen king of Babylon, not a fallen angel.  It wasn't until Jerome was commissioned to do new translations around 400 AD that fallen angel language was added. If you look at the symbology that is used in Revelations, clearly it pertains to things that were physically going on at the time.  >>

I know the verse you are speaking of, and this can also refer to a demonic prince.  As Paul writes in the new testament, and also as Christ says, the adversarial forces are principalities, kingdoms, etc.  With what is known of demonology, that verse in Isaiah could very well refer to a powerful fallen angel, who was confounding a lesser angel who had to seek assistance to overcome it.  The issue of degrees of angels is very commonly suggested, even with evil spirits (as when one is cast out, it is said that it will return with others even greater than itself).

Book of Enoch, though Apocraphyl, was accepted as legitimate by old and new testament writers, and is referenced to in the bible.  This has alot of information to suggest similar things.



>>Are there more holes in the futuristic interpretation or historical interpretation? And what would people from the time be more concerned about?

I believe that people who believe in the futuristic interpretation have a hard time thoroughly questioning it because 1) they are afraid that if they seriously open themselves up to a non futuristic interpretation, they'll open themselves up to satan; 2) they are attached to the idea that they'll be one of God's few chosen ones when the rapture supposedly happens; and 3) they consider the issue with preconceived ideas, and don't realize how much such preconceived ideas are influencing them. Even a bio computer has a tendency to limit its search to the information it has access to. >>

As in my statements about people not seeing that Christ fulfilled all the old testament prophecies concerning the messiah, it is more than possible that everyone misinterpreted what revelations was about, placing it in a more contemporary setting rather than seeing the far reaching vision that it seems to me to be.  Starts with Genesis, ends with Revelations....makes sense for a world based on linear time.


>>I find it really hard to believe that a being of infinite love and wisdom such as God would set things up so that a minority percentage of the human population will be allowed to go with Jesus on a certain day while a majority of people will have to go through seven years of tribulation before eventually having to go to hell for all of eternity despite their good hearts and good intentions, simply because they haven't come around to believing in "a particular" religious philosophy. >>

This is a matter of faith for each person.  The mystery of God is vast...I believe we have the chance to exercise freewill, in a world where because of the mystery of God and the largely hidden nature of the absolute answers, there is value with what we choose to do here.  Hell is not necessarily for "eternity".  The more accurate translation in the bible is Eon rather than Eternal, which is a world of difference.  The Eon interpretation works pretty well with the idea that one can "pay the jailer the last farthing" and get out when they are ready.  

The existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and all-loving God is truly one of the greatest philospophical challenges.  I think evil was introduced after creation, whether you accept that it was done so by fallen angels or by humans, and God allows everything to come to fulfillment despite it.  


>>How about the "love your neighbor as yourself" viewpoint? Can one really say that one is living in such a way if they feel happy with a belief system which suggests that many good hearted, well meaning people are going to end up spending all of eternity in hell simply because the circumstance of their life (for example the family they were born into) didn't lead them to the point where they took on a particular belief system?
>>

I don't believe that all, and as a Catholic, my particular church teaches in the Catechism that while the Catholic faith has a greater clarity, those in other faiths who discover God and lead Christ-like lives can certainly go to heaven.  The Catholic heaven would have a multitude of buddhists, muslims, pagans, and more.



>>Can one say that one is really living in such a way when they feel as if they don't have to worry about things such as the environment and natural resources, because the rapture is going to bring everthing to an end anyway?

Can one say that one is really living in such a way when they feel it is okay to demonize entire groups of people simply because they don't believe in a particular way?

Is it loving to point fingers and accuse people of being 666? >>


I would suggest that people that do what you are describing are very misguided and have a little to learn.


>>If satan and his army actually exists, then why doesn't Michael and his army of angels take care of them right away, as opposed to allowing them to corrupt millions of innocent people first? Certainly God is too wise and loving to make life a big test that millions of people fail miserably. And if so many people fail, why? >>


Again, this is one of the great conundrums of philosophy---omipotent, good God and the reality of evil in the world.  This is my personal opinion/belief here, but I believe that the power of the Adversary is very great...not great enough to overcome God, of course, but definitely something that can resist, cause a whole lot of trouble, etc.  They (the Adversary)  can still win battles and lose the war, so to speak.  

This is one of the questions that gives me alot of trouble as well, by the way.  I've always wished God would just clean house, but then I realize that to do so would be to have an intervention of such a nature that it truly would be an "end of days".  


>>If the concept of satan is actually true, it may be that Jesus has already defeated him. Consider the below from Hebrews 2:14. Several translations have been provided.

Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, >>


Speaking from strictly a Christian theology, the death of Christ and Resurrection DID defeat the devil and death.  All humanity saved, with eternal life and eventual resurrection of the body, bringing to full healing after the fall, sin, etc..  

The devil, at that point, lost a high degree of authority in that he and his fellow demons could be "bound" by those following God, believers, etc.  The string is being played out, but the end is a foregone conclusion.  Remember that God is not in our time and space, while revelation occurs in our time and space on our linear progression here.  Similary, the devil is "In time", here on the linear path.

I think that the Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe does this very well in metaphor.  When the kids question Aslan after he resurrects, he makes bold note of the fact that if the White Witch had truly understood the deep magic, she never would have manipulated his "sacrifice and death".  

Similarly, the devil may have thought to slay Christ, not knowing that the slaying was what brought about the victory as the Perfect Sacrifice.  

Hello Newwayknight:

In response to your last post, I believe there is one creator, and any of his creations that would choose to separate itself from him would separate itself from its inner power, and would be operating from a limited state of mind that wouldn't have enough of a comprehensive view to act in a truly intelligent and meaningful way.  

I believe the problem is that people try to humanize heaven too much. God and angels aren't body based beings. When we're in the flesh we're exposed to negative potentialities because they provide the contrast with which we grow. When we're in the flesh it is often hard to obtain the love, happiness, peace, joy, divinity and sense of self worth we inwardly yearn for, so we get angry when we can't find it.  Sometimes feelings such as envy and jealousy arise when we can't find love and a feeling for our own specialness.

Such problems don't exist in heaven, because all the love, joy, peace, beauty, divinity and sense of self worth a person could ever want is available. Humility and gratitude would also abound. Therefore, where is the need of becoming some confused angel who falls, and supposedly somehow cons a third of other very fullfilled angels to give up their life of love and glory, so they can take part in its confused state of darkness that can't possibly succeed in the end.

If angels could fall in such a way, then anybody could fall after they arive in heaven. I can't buy into this possibility, because I give heaven and God's angels too much credit.

I do believe that there are some earthbound spirits who don't cross over, and some of them might be quite mean.  It might even be possible that some of them have gathered together in a negative belief system, and try to rebel against their concept of God (If they knew him, they wouldn't rebel).

Heirarchies? I guess there could at times be some sort of chain of command. This doesn't mean that the spirits at top (or should I say bottom) have a lot of power.

I once had an out of body experience where I traveled to the entrance way of a dark realm.  I automatically knew that the beings within were stuck in their own self created darkness, and that the only way they could get out is if they asked for help from spirits from higher levels. I felt no fear at all during this experience, because I knew that these spirits couldn't get to me.  As soon as the experience ended the thought came to me that sometimes they find their way out when people mess around with ouija boards.  Since this later point was like an after thought compared to my experience, I'm not as certain about it. Whatever the case, I believe that negative minded spirits generally need people to reach out to them in some way, in order for them to effect people. I don't believe they are going to recruit people in mass during some future armagedon.

P.S. I can see from some of your other recent posts that your viewpoints don't always match the viewpoints of what some fundamentalists believe.  You wrote several things that I doubt they would write.

Hi greenwater welcome so much to the board,we are all friends on here,we share all our experiences on here, and knowledge we all have acheived,i have suffered depression since i was 15yrs old,but i have now overcome this,and ive realised what a wonderful world i live in,all the things im learning,and its great being on here,all my dear freinds on here have taught me so much of the afterlife and i thank them for that,so hang in there greenwater ,it will get better and keep writing on here as we love to know of your experiences, and like blink said we are really interested in what you write about.love and god bless you juditha

Way to go Juditha. :)



wrote on Aug 9^th, 2006 at 5:03pm:

Hi greenwater welcome so much to the board,we are all friends on here,we share all our experiences on here, and knowledge we all have acheived,i have suffered depression since i was 15yrs old,but i have now overcome this,and ive realised what a wonderful world i live in,all the things im learning,and its great being on here,all my dear freinds on here have taught me so much of the afterlife and i thank them for that,so hang in there greenwater ,it will get better and keep writing on here as we love to know of your experiences, and like blink said we are really interested in what you write about.love and god bless you juditha

recoverer wrote on Aug 8^th, 2006 at 6:58pm:

Hello Newwayknight: In response to your last post, I believe there is one creator, and any of his creations that would choose to separate itself from him would separate itself from its inner power, and would be operating from a limited state of mind that wouldn't have enough of a comprehensive view to act in a truly intelligent and meaningful way.   I believe the problem is that people try to humanize heaven too much. God and angels aren't body based beings. When we're in the flesh we're exposed to negative potentialities because they provide the contrast with which we grow. When we're in the flesh it is often hard to obtain the love, happiness, peace, joy, divinity and sense of self worth we inwardly yearn for, so we get angry when we can't find it.  Sometimes feelings such as envy and jealousy arise when we can't find love and a feeling for our own specialness. Such problems don't exist in heaven, because all the love, joy, peace, beauty, divinity and sense of self worth a person could ever want is available. Humility and gratitude would also abound. Therefore, where is the need of becoming some confused angel who falls, and supposedly somehow cons a third of other very fullfilled angels to give up their life of love and glory, so they can take part in its confused state of darkness that can't possibly succeed in the end. If angels could fall in such a way, then anybody could fall after they arive in heaven. I can't buy into this possibility, because I give heaven and God's angels too much credit. I do believe that there are some earthbound spirits who don't cross over, and some of them might be quite mean.  It might even be possible that some of them have gathered together in a negative belief system, and try to rebel against their concept of God (If they knew him, they wouldn't rebel). Heirarchies? I guess there could at times be some sort of chain of command. This doesn't mean that the spirits at top (or should I say bottom) have a lot of power. I once had an out of body experience where I traveled to the entrance way of a dark realm.  I automatically knew that the beings within were stuck in their own self created darkness, and that the only way they could get out is if they asked for help from spirits from higher levels. I felt no fear at all during this experience, because I knew that these spirits couldn't get to me.  As soon as the experience ended the thought came to me that sometimes they find their way out when people mess around with ouija boards.  Since this later point was like an after thought compared to my experience, I'm not as certain about it. Whatever the case, I believe that negative minded spirits generally need people to reach out to them in some way, in order for them to effect people. I don't believe they are going to recruit people in mass during some future armagedon. P.S. I can see from some of your other recent posts that your viewpoints don't always match the viewpoints of what some fundamentalists believe.  You wrote several things that I doubt they would write.

Hi Recoverer,

I enjoy your posts, and enjoy this discussion.  Interesting you mention fundamentalists...that is probably the group I tend to argue with most...reminds me of the old quote:
"Jesus, save me from your followers!"  lol

I probably get into as much of a huff about the "fundamentalists" as you do.  They have such a boring view of God, it drives me crazy sometimes.  Often, though, the stances they take are quite dangerous and harmful, and you pointed some of them out well in your previous post on this thread.

My leanings are mystical and leave an infinite amount of room for new knowledge and revelation.  To me, God just can't be put in a box.

I think your thoughts are wonderful...it is just that historically I see such a pattern with the negative side of things, including all the various evidences and such, including black magic practioners, that I do hold that there is an evil faction out there.  I do think your idea about a grouping of earthbound spirits very interesting.  But in everything I've looked at, there does seem to be a hierarchy of sorts.  As far as the "devil", I would think that the motive force woud be "pride".  A misguided idea that he could do things better than God and a desire to exalt himself.  There are other ideas about what motivated the theorized war in heaven, such as the devil and other angel's refusal to bend their knee and work for mankind as God's new creation.  This idea is even reflected in Islam with the Jinn.  Again, it would be an infraction of pride.

As far as flesh and spirit....I have to say that I don't believe in a separation of "Spirit equals good"  and "matter equals bad".  I think matter can be a very good thing, and I believe this is part of the point of the theology behind the resurrected body.  It is a physical one, but one that is reconciled in harmony with the spirit.  I believe that this was the original intention for us, including an undying state...and then something happened...whether you find that to be Adam and Eve (literal or metaphor for turning away from God using Free Will), the Devil, a combination of those, or another idea, I do believe we went off track somewhere and somehow.  I do not believe that God originally intended for us to suffer so much, die, etc.  We have managed to screw things up a bit, in my view, and the long process of redemption will culminate in a much different age following the "end times".  It will be a physical world as originally intended, with harmony with the spirit.

Believe me, I struggle with things all the time.  Very few people never have struggles.  And the things you talk about give me the most trouble.  I've always struggled with the idea of evil existing in God's greater creation...I don't think I will have that answer until the afterworld...

I too find it impossible to understand how angels could rebel after knowing God so directly, but then again, I cannot assume that just because I don't understand it, that it proves that it did not happen.  I cannot prove what happened, or what did not happen.  It is largely speculative until we get "over there".