My point here:

When we wake up and recall some experience we had while sleeping usually we call it a dream/nightmare and so on. The point here is…. As I have noticed along my studies the process seems to work this way… Whatever we experience while in deep sleep is not being gathered through our five senses it’s an experience with is happening in an environment other then our physical world….You can call it unconscious mind or whatever you want.  

I believe that what we recall is not the appropriated stuff to allow us to make a judgment whether what we recall is or is not an OBE.

Why?

While having what could be called a “normal dream” the experience is made of  pieces of our own knowledge… things we have in our brain that are used to create a story in order to reach some psychological goal for instance.

In other hand when we go through an OBE the environment and all we fell is not happening while using our physical brain, in fact we are using our astral brain, our physical brain is being impressed by impulses (emotions and so on) and need to justify it so it has to built a story and that story is made (like a patchwork) from experiences images concepts we had in our physical brain, otherwise how to justify the impulses it is receiving from a source that can’t be understood by our physical brain.

What I’m trying to say is that even after a GENUINE OBE what we recall is not exactly the real experience (as it happened) so it’s why some times we can go through a genuine OBE and once waken up what we recall can sound meaning less.

So unfortunately the best thing is follow the heart. There’s no 100% sure conclusion.

Do you understand? ;)

Hi Kardec-
I tend to agree with you, and I'm not sure how to express what the reality might be either. This question is dear to my heart, and I wrestle with it daily.

Regression and encounters with entities coming foreward in trance to present themselves and talk to living loved ones seem to retain an emotional mode of "thought". It's rather like L Ron Hubbard tried to describe in his book Dianetics, in which he pointed out that on the subcionscious level our thought processes seem to be based on nominal identification and differences (unfortunately, that's is all I got out of his writings, except for some decent sci fi stories).

If I were to ask you to pick up a glass of water and to describe it in absolute terms, you'd have much the same problem.  Eventually you'd have to create comparisons that would be close, but inexact. Later, when describing the experience to others you'd still be stuck with the inability to express the precise nature of the experience. In this sense, we deal always with maps, verbal expressions that approximate reality, but never with the actual territory, the experience in itself. In fact, the only way to communicate "water" might be to splash some onto me.

If it might be true that we cannot actually express more than an abstraction of experiences, then it might also be true that we can only recall experiences in the abstract. This has been claimed by semanticists like Whorf and Sapir, whose "semantic network" of definitions seems to be the extent of reality as they conceive it. In that sense, I think of light bending as it passes through a glass, and the wiggles and ripples of the surface, the flow of a clear liquid pouring, and I am still not at the point of the experience.

My personal inclination is to suggest that as we dream, as we go OBE or as we are involved with spirits who act to  offer us either guidance or some other experience, or as we experience othr related states we are at the direct point of experience. and that the "spirit mind" or whatever we call it - "subconscious" is an awkward term - operates directly in those terms. Thus we attach to, equate with, and differ from elements of our experiences in a "real" manner,  but we are unable to express it. What we CAN express seems limited to secondary abstractions, thoughts about thinking, but never thinking in itself.

Often OBE experts (Carrington, Muldoon and so on) speak of a "spirit embodiment". They locate their awareness inside this embodiment, and they describe what thy do in everyday terms. I resist this description as a probable fabrication, used for the purpose of allowing them to speak and think of their experiences in "everyday terms". Personally, when I have experiences of this kind, I am unable to find any unique personal embodiment. I find the world to be a place of a very different nature than the "everyday world". As an example, to exteriorize into the corner of the room and look down on my entranced body sitting upright brings no sensation of anything of an "everyday" nature except the experience of perception - an abstraction of the experience.

To return to you initial remark, my feeling is that we recall only that which can be held in the "everyday mind", and we miss the greatest part of projective experiences because we don't know how to capture them in thought. It's like remembering how it hurts to be stuck with a pin, or how sugar tastes.  On that basis, I'm inclined to look for a mechanism that both agrees with the existence of the everyday world, and yet which involves us in a manner not at all compatible with everyday concepts as we move through our transcendental experiences, so that what we recall can be no more than the shadow image of the true experience.

You live in a land in which the presence of spirits is accepted and in which numerous religions deliberately seek out encounters with them. I wonder if there might be a source of additional experiences there, through which  to develop  a familiarity that could be somehow operationally rooted and thus expressed in our "everyday" language.

dave

dave wrote:


Quote:

To return to you initial remark, my feeling is that we recall only that which can be held in the "everyday mind", and we miss the greatest part of projective experiences because we don't know how to capture them in thought. It's like remembering how it hurts to be stuck with a pin, or how sugar tastes.  On that basis, I'm inclined to look for a mechanism that both agrees with the existence of the everyday world, and yet which involves us in a manner not at all compatible with everyday concepts as we move through our transcendental experiences, so that what we recall can be no more than the shadow image of the true experience.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You live in a land in which the presence of spirits is accepted and in which numerous religions deliberately seek out encounters with them. I wonder if there might be a source of additional experiences there, through which  to develop  a familiarity that could be somehow operationally rooted and thus expressed in our "everyday" language.

-------------------------------------------------

Dave

As usually I agree with you. As you mentioned the land were I live in and our spiritual experiences I’d like to add some more information.

We use to divide the “projectional experience” (OBE) into at least two different types, we call the first one “normal unfolding” this way we call the normal spiritual projection we have while sleeping in a daily basis, usually what we recall here are mere fragments as we have just described at this topic, in general they’re described as dreams.

The second type is what we call “conscious unfolding” (desdobramento consciente) those are the experiences were mediums can  control their projection out of the body and can describe clearly what happens… and if sent to another place, as soon as they’re back they’re able to describe exactly what happened at the remote location.

These second experience type make me confuse, because it seems that the experience is completely and precisely “downloaded” into their physical brains without lost of information.

My experience here is somewhat limited, but I get the impression that when a person goes to visit another place the information that returns is of the "everyday type". Thus we describe so many walls, a floor and roof, people with bodies and hair etc. These are references to everyday experiences, but have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual "going there".

In dreams, the unconscious process, it seems that we both experience "a different kind of realitry" - and that we have very few "everyday handles" by which to grasp it. What we can bring back is an impression - for example, I often dream of being in school (and either having trouble with a math class, or not being able to find my classroom)  but I have no way to describe how I go from one place to another, nor how I got there, nor what it all means. (I was actually a pretty decent student, but now I'm trying to learn math that I didn't even know existed when I was in school - and I've gotten so old that I often forget it as fast as I learn it. Presumably there's a direct and obvious connection. )

I've talked with people who projected on drugs (Ketamine, general anesthesia for surgery) and they were impressed by the experience and could describe the everyday furniture where they went. But they could not explain the going nor the returning. Edgar Cayce described going into trrance through levels of anxious spirits until he reached the "akashic records etc" but this also misses the "how he does it" part. I can give you abstract descriptions of what has to occur when relationships form or decay, but that is no better - it's just words and commonplace ideas.

I believe the key to this kind of question will ultimately be found - but I think it will only be after we have an accurate concept of the actual spiritual processes involved. For example, if you are wandering around without a body, where is the location of your viewpoint, and how do you keep it there? I am willing to bet that the answer will be exceedingly simple, but that it will require changing the way we view reality quite radically.  I've been looking at exotic ideas from physics and I've been unable to gain anything but more information about the everyday world, which doesn't help much.

As I recall, you were doing some type of spiritual education work, and I wonder if that connects to this? I live in a world that is either a godless materialism, or the antithesis, a non-scientific mystery related to an ultimately alien Godhead. Neither extreme gives much support to the type of spiritual inquiry we're discussing here.

dave

Quote:

For example, if you are wandering around without a body, where is the location of your viewpoint, and how do you keep it there?

This assumes that the viewpoint is in the body when you think you are in the body.

Is it possible the real source of awareness is not in the body to begin with?

(or is that a possiblilty not worth considering because you can't prove/disprove it...)

good point Lucy. awareness, I am consciousness does not have a location and can instantly be and move within another persons seeming location, or even to be creating of an imaginative area, or rather it's an allusion we are subsisting within a fleshly location. but if u believe otherwise than so be it that you are and confined as it were to flesh awareness/locale  only. this gets more interesting however to consider a cell has a consciousness also, then theres string theory; or is it quantum physics..that the object observed is effected in its movement by what is observing it (act of creating reality)
the only answer is to say time/space is allusion we prefer to abide in, considering the alternatives?

what I call spirit is vaguely defined by necessity or lack of descriptives..however it operates for me as Kardek summed up, follow your heart. we seem to be trying to define what is real here and what is allusion. I once was given a message from spirit and these are messages fully formed into sentences much like what they used to call automatic writing...I don't describe the process as Dave wants, but I get spacey, if that helps, and a blank mind, maybe thats called delta level in the lab, however the message was "spirit descends to translate itself through the use of abstraction of symbols, it must utilize the vessel conformations to impart itself." my translation of that is the receptical must fit the current that's coming in, and the body/mind is the receptical capable of receiving only a measured amount of amperage. man, I'm sorry!!lol. this is complicated. I did get another message that the human being was merely alternating current polarities within an energy context, and that we go about charging each other up with either negative or positive energy...lol ;D   I know that's simplistic, but I've been "shocked" by aha moments and there does seem to be something electric, like unto what might be called light, during enlightening moments.

in the final analysis, what is real seems to be determined by he who calls himself a realist. the others who are not realists..their dreams come true regularly and that too is real to them. but yes, a person who has died and left the body would be hard pressed to explain to a spirit getting ready for his first dive into flesh, what is ahead and what it is like to be here in this dimension, in a body, which must be clothed, fed, rested, exercised, insured, and so on etc. for that is not explainable and must be done first hand.  hugs, alysia...follow your heart, it cannot lie.

I think there are very different levels to where we can project our consciousness. I’ve learnt that there are no violent changes when we “die”. There are many different levels of consciousness, depending on the spirit development. To each level there is an environment where that spirit can dwell in.  

The more a spirit is attached to the “physical realm” the more the environment to where he is naturally attracted to is similar to earth cities and cultures. Of course spirits who had already reached a higher level of consciousness and knowledge and LOVE can dwell at layers were the environment is unreachable to our limitations.

That said I’d like to say that a normal person like many of us will (after death) will reach places, not created by their own minds but instead REAL places made to them in the spiritual realms. At those basic levels (our place, because we are no angels yet ,lol) time is still needed and there are very similarities with our cities and countries. Even to people who knows that they had already passed away, because this knowledge by it self isn’t enough to allow them to live in the highest plans at the astral, such hard goal is achieved through many lifetimes of strength.

Of course there are all kind of groups living at the various different vibration levels out there, there are cities were the live is very beautiful and pace is the main feeling, they all know that they have passed away and understand that they need such environment to live in because they know it’s impossible to jump into higher levels just because they want to, it needs time.
In other hands there are places very similar to the hell like described here in this web site, and between the “bottom” and the “top” there is a myriad of places appropriated the each kind of spirit.

I mentioned it all because dave has said that he was confused about the point of view of one who has not a body. I need to mention that we have our Astral body that is very similar to our physical body and we use it in a very similar way. Of course that when we go through wat we call here in Brazil “the second death” we lost that “astral body” and the reincarnation is no longer possible, such level of development is really not easy to reach and I think we don’t need to worry about that level for know. (lol)
Hugs.

???do You thing it worth's to be posted as a new thread?

Hmmm - Lucy asks if I am making an unwarranted assumption of the existence of a body (sure, it's very persuasive when I stub my toe to believe that I'm hooked onto a body), Alysia "gets spacey" (so do I), and Kardec points our that we have an "astral body" and that there is a traditional belief in a "second death", which I assume means a sort of transcendence at which we no longer have to return here (sounds good).

Well, let me try to play this back from a personal perspective. Last night, after thinking for some time about embodiments and our beliefs, as well as the uncertainty in time in which an event might occur, and through which time reversal in the small is a regularly experienced event in our lives (and how to express that in symbols) when I fell asleep I spent the better part of the time dreaming that I was operating two beauty salons inside a monstrous fish. The idea was that people would enter looking like fish, and with a certain amount of attention to items like fins, gill slits and flippers, they could be rearranged into people. This fish was embedded in some other kind of "stream" in which events kept flowing by. My last name is "Armentrout" which translates interestingly into "Brasso -en-Trucha", in Spanish, and probably something similar in Portugese,  hence the fish is probably a metaphor for the kind of therapy or other work I do, but why that took the form of two beauty salons embedded in a monster fish, plus a lot of details that now slips away I don't know. The rest of the dream was definitely a metaphor.

In this dream state I had no specific astral body. What I wasd doing made excellent sense at the time, but as I woke up, it started to seem progressively crazier. As I sit here with a cup of coffee right now, it seems totally bizarre, and the content is slipping away as rational thinking takes over. In answer to Lucy, this dream had only the assumption that "I" was present in it as a causal factor. My viewpoint was abstract. I don't know how I got there, what I was doing, nor how I got back.

If I understand your initial proposition correctly, Kardec, you were asking whether the stuff people bring back is valid, or somehow stuffed into a convenient mode of expression, dumped into them somehow. My feeling is that whatever was happening to me, as an example, can be expressed in the words I just used, but these fail totally to actually capture the moment as it actually existed. I'm interested in the idea of a "second death" as a way out of this, but until then, I suspect that what we tell people is little more than a superficial impression of the actual reality. The interesting, and unsettling,  part of that is whether we somehow get stuffed into one of these hallucinatory states when we die, so that we can metaphorically work out our karmic involovements.

dave

Interesting dream Dave. do u mind if I play a bit with it :)  I'm preparing a dream book. whether I'm right or wrong or somewhere in between I've always thought of you as a big fish on this forum, and that is not flattery y'all :) or maybe you're the big fish in the world of exploring the afterlife regions because you work with all sorts of regressions so you are in a better place to write a book about such things.

also the beauty parlors; beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you search for the beauty..this is my perception of you. the fish was the beginning of life on earth before it crawled unto the shore and needed to sprout legs. I have no problems with evolution and the advent of the human spirit on this planet. in your spirit dream you observe the beginnings of mankind's evolvement. 2 beauty parlors represents duality present here; we take the bad with the good as mother would say. then u sign off with reflections of karma. let me make a bad joke about karma. if you drank as much coffee as me you wouldn't have time to worry about looking over your shoulder for karma. I look back over my life and found strangely enough all my former miseries I had willingly signed up to experience and that blows my pea brain, but it is possible to burn off all karma in one life and I do believe attain a choice about whether to come back here. the only reason I would come back is to be with someone I loved if they were coming back in. sometimes you just can't be your true self, unless someone helps you to be true to yourself.  we need each other and I'm glad you're here and doing your service for others to understand.  [smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

Kardek, this thread is good, we may get off topic as so many ideas are expressed here but that's ok. theres a lot of meat here. hugs, alysia

Hey,

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but just had a thought pop into my head about reality and how to describe it, I think I am off here and may have mis-read but might as well post it while I'm here now. To me:

Reality = a place where your consciousness can operate

Its "your" consciousness as well because I think reality is different for everyone so its personal, but not so in the bigger picture.

Right, back to the thread!

Ryan

Hi Guys,

Just want to share a glimmer I had since it seems to include focusing, reality, and altered consciousness.  While experiencing the after effects of working with my soul group in a morphine-induced coma in early May, emotion as opposed to the particular task was stressed as I was leaving there to return here. This leaving and missing the feelings of good fellowship were very vivid.  I had the presence of mind, thanks to Bruce’s retrieval tapes and CD’s, to request something to indicate that I was actually there and to trigger my memory of the experience and was given “Whatever one focuses on creates their reality”.  At the time, I took it to mean that if I chose to stay there or visit at sometime in the future, all I had to do was to focus on being there rather than here and visa verse.  I laughed and felt freer at the simplicity of the message but realized that the difficulty lies in what locale or focus I would choose to remain in since I’m still just learning to navigate. Plus getting back to the task part may be stored in the morphine state specific section of the mind and since I'm not into drugs, I may not get the ready access that I had to the leaving part.  I may have been in focus 10 level when I was leaving the group as opposed to the focus level your in when intoxicated or in a coma.  Still need to think this through.

Meanwhile, the doctors were concerned that I was not coming out of the coma as quickly as I was supposed to.  One of my sons told me this later but I wonder how much my body was reflecting my indecision.   Now I’m back in C1 and my mind is jumping all over the place but at least I feel reassured that there is a place somewhere out there or in here where I can get a break to experience that wonderful feeling of love and acceptance while contributing.  Since I don’t believe in accidents, the primary feelings surrounding this early coma memory is viewed as a gift.  I felt excited and comforted and on looking back, it was a good thing I had this because it’s been a little rough since then.  

I also realize that this message has wider implications for me because if I choose to focus on something petty, negative, or generally fear based I will go there too.  I had a variety of other experiences which were more subject to interpreter overlay but this one, especially since it did not include details, gave me such strong feelings of comfort and joy, that I really trusted it. I’m also surprised at the recall of some of these experiences, not at all like my dreams which I tend to forget if I don’t write them down shortly after.  

Gotta go!

Love, Jean    

thats profound to me Jean. "whatever you focus on creates your reality."
this is string theory or quantum physics...what is observed reacts to what is observing it and so we can be assured we effect others reality as well as our own focusing/creating byways and hiways. so maybe I was there with you because I would want to be there for you, but more than that I have been thinking about what you said a long time ago, that every moment is a choice to make, to choose how we shall view a thing, a situation, rather positively or negativily, or whether we will be personally offended by the world around us, or look to see love thereby focusing on that which we would have in our life. the joy, the comfort was very real, was it not? is PUl not what keeps us going even when outer circumstances seem to test us?
if there is only one choice, to ascend into the next world then I think ACIM was right; we would only be going home and thats not scarey at all. it sounds to me like you had an NDE and relunctant to call it so, but coma's are really close to the other world where you don't have a body but you are still you and so I'd call it a genuine NDE, especially since you remember that comfort was there, in our true home..we but journey now.
I once met a disc member, or I called him my brother soul, like an animus or anima. pardon me I don't know if its a mus or a ma on the end; he was male polarity, I female as it is now.  he was all logic mixed with love, I was all talk to me, I need your clarity and I journey for it. coming into his presence was like you described..once there, you don't want to leave again and come back to your life, but you know you must. total love was there. I knew how much I had forgotten then. I had forgotten we were one. I missed you I said, but I didn't know I missed you until just now as I remember you and how we are one. He said, I know, we are journeying apart right now for reasons to be strong and of good cheer and courage. then he told me how to uplift others and make them as free and as strong as I myself would be. everything was clear again.

life is simply to short to focus on the pain and fear. we can focus on what we want to see instead. thanks for the jump start sis. hugs, alysia

Hi ALL,

Concerning my experience being an NDE, can’t really call it that any more because of realizing that there is no death just a change in focus.  Plus what I’m starting to realize more and more is that we are offered an “R & R Break” and for some a “Time Out”.  As I reread what I affectionally call the ROTE’s given to Monroe which includes the thoughts that, “There is no beginning, there is no end; There is only change” coupled with “There is no wakefulness, there is no sleep, There is only being” how can I believe in death?.  Spooky’s adventures, I recognize the similar to mine when I was in the coma.  Too bad that I didn’t have a pc or the energy to record but I did my best to verify some of the “dreams” with  others I was involved with during this period.  For example, I pictured this elaborate scene where I was placed in a special residence in preparation for my son and his family to be flown in to be with me and I would finally get to meet my grandchildren.  The flight was arranged by my son’s best friend but when it came time for me to finally be with them they change their mind and went back to California.  What a disappointment!  After I had awaken from the coma and was back home, I questioned my son regarding what happened when I was “out”.  

Fact was that I was placed in isolation and later intensive care.  (As a side note one of my son’s mentioned that my roommate was handcuffed to the bed and a policeman was standing guard, I proceeded to make a very elaborate story line out of that one including details about the inner workings of social service industry and my agency). Fact was that my son was with his best friend when he listened to my message regarding going into the hospital.  Fact was that he immediately flew out to be with me. Fact was that his wife drove out with the children to be with my son and they all left before I was out of the coma.  Fact is I never consciously saw any of them and still haven’t although they were the major influence in getting my temporary disability and structuring the plan for the rest of the family to aid and record the experience.  I have the journal to prove it.  

Two different takes on the same happening.  A part of me was working hard to keep me posted and in spite of the interpreter overlay making up a palatable story, I was provided with the basic information.  Slick huh?  Even if my “dream” all came about as a result of my son discussing these details while visiting me when I was comatose, it indicates the importance of visitors to talk as if the “patient” is awake and aware. We still get the message.  I found a lot of interpreter overlay but the basic theme of the exchange or intent was there.  I suspected that I was not merely picking up what others were saying around me but also some of the dynamics going on behind the scenes or in their thoughts.  One individual did not have my best interest at heart although you could never pick it up from the well wishes I was given.  This I could not verify but did get the message to “watch my back” because this individual is based in fear.  

I find that sometimes my posts straddle two different threads.  I intended to respond to Alysia regarding my current take on NDE’s but had to mention the rote first presented in UJ.  I could go on and on about the dang’ list (included in the book review section) which I consider to be the soul’s bottom line guide for living as a human.  It’s not necessarily a helpful guide, except in a general way, for working in C1 because here many of us need more specifics “how to’s” in working with time, money, each other, etc. but the list is always at the back of my mind as a reminder.  It sure came in handy for my most recent adventure when I could do nothing except be a witness to my inner world and the loving cooperation of my sons, brothers, friends, and coworkers and the doctors around me. It was definitely a happening! But getting back to the list, in some ways it’s a downer for me to realize that there is no final goal all set up in a package to shoot for and finally be done. Yet it is also freeing to believe that it is an never ending ongoing adventure for the soul. Through the vehicle of the coma, I was able to get a glimpse of what these two rotes possibly mean for I can’t really say I slept nor can I separate the beginning from the end but I can say it was a major change.  Change is what it’s all about for us humans, that’s how we hone in on our skills.      

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to start recording the experience so that I can go forward by letting some of it go.  I’m also learning that recovering from a crisis or systems crash and not having the luxury of the old time rest homes means being determined to continue to put one foot in front of the other and acting as if you’ve mastered the setback and are looking forward to the next chapter. After all my temporary disability is up the end of next week and unless I come up with some brilliant alternative to making money in a less stressful way, it’s back to work hopefully with a more mellow attitude.  

Love, Jean

Alysia-still with you, hope your editing is going smoothly for I still need the book :D probably even more than the meds.  Love & hugs, J    

my goodness. Jean you make so many good points to relate with you over but I'm in a lot of changes myself so I'll try to be brief...lol...whoever heard of a writer who is brief? maybe Confusious say is brief...I like the finale where u say to proceed "as if." I've been teaching my children that philosophy slowly but surely. to go forward as if it's all going to work out fine, while covering your bases, as you say watching your back, with a quiet consideration of all the possibilities. quiet? did I say that? I also believe the squeaking wheel gets the grease so I admit I'm learning to squeak louder.

I still believe you were close to death and so thats why I say you were near death.
also your family flying to your bedside must have felt the possibility of your death. I've come to believe in Sylvia's teaching that we have many exit points to leave this reality something like 6 to 8 at which we can reaccess whether we want to stay and do some more work or play, or just say ah, to hell with it!! lol..I've developed an attitude which serves me ok over time when I reflect on the two worlds.

of course there is no death as we think of it. however when you are actually dying to the physical world its so gradual slipping out, feeling so natural, still feel like you always do, you may not even realize you're in process of that great change. adventure? thats the way I've looked at it.
yes, entirely slick Jean. very slick to be having these rotes and knowings. just had a dream the other night that while I flip out in reality over the details of reality creating according to my expectations of course, this in C1, my dreams are saying, relax, this is what will happen and C1 creates a lot of problems that just aren't really there.
a picture is worth a thousand words in the mind.
my mind often straddles two threads too; as a matter of fact I straddle the whole board quite inneffiently..we're probably ascending!! yaaaaaahhhhh!!!
heres a good image to hold. sit on top of the world, arms outstretched, remembering PUL. something weird happens in your dreams to do so. wierdly wonderful.

oh, u know where u said in some ways its a downer to see no final goal to shoot for? this is where I see a change in you, in the way you post now. you seem more clear minded, more on topic than before your coma, more positive and more balanced although you were always a star player to me because I sensed a full heart active. I don't have a goal either, so whatever...I think I like to create surprises for myself, or my higher self tweaks me along this way to go ahead and go forward with whatever, AS IF. never mind stressing over the details, just take care of the details without complaining too much I suppose! can I still squeak in that case? I believe so. I see freedom just around the bend.

hugs, alysia

so many interesting posts, so little time to reply...

one thing I am thinking about though, is an experience I had years ago, afetr I heard of Seth but before I heard of Monroe (so I had been exposed to some alternate ideas).

I was asleep and purportedly dreaming. I was i a very beautiful place. I felt like I was in a kind of tapestry made of beautiful textures and colors...I was looking at the tapestry thing yet somehow interacting. But the background was dark. Then I realized I was a point of conciousness...no body...just a point of conciousness.

Well that was a nasty wake-up call! Darn. I was immediately back in the physical.

Later I spoke of that experience to someone from another tradition. She said I went to Summerland. I don't know what that means.

I also thought a little about the colors..the only thing that started to vcome close is the color of clouds at sunset, especially the pink fluffy ones. Maybe because they seem to light up from inside.

What an intellectual disappointment to be so attached to my body that I can't function without it. But apparently you don't need a body to think or perceive out there.

Alysia - if you can make sense out of my fishy dream, go for it. It's kinda obvious. My recall was that the hardest part was taking fish and extending their flippers into arms and legs. The actual reason for mentioning it at all was that my wife continually complains that she doesn't get restorative sleep and that she has "goofy dreams" - for once, I could out-goofy her.

Lucy- I make no judgement about having to have anything except a point of view in order to be aware. Your experience (samadhi) of being pure consciousness is to the point of that. Seems like we are no-thing and no-body, if you'll pardon the pun. The next two levels of the same experience, if recall serves, is to become ALL of consciousness (sarvastarka samadhi), and then to just be All of Being (nirvastarka samadhi). Then one often goes into the stage of always being in trance, and can have goofy dreams of this and other realities etc. I am perpetually amazed at the exceptionally high level of spiritual development of the folks on this forum.

Kardec has raised one side of an interesting dichotomy here - and Lucy has especially pointed it out - We have a spiritual experience and bring back a slightly distorted image, and on that basis we do what we can to make life work better. Then we create a new psychic environment, and as we re-enter it we again have a sppiritual experience from which we bring back a slightly distorted image, create a new psychic environment ... etc. It's rather like getting rid of "original sin" by working through it, until we finally get to the point of simply being aware. (This is precisely the same sequence I use when I do psychotherapy with people, and it seems to be generic to all the ways that we work to advance ourselves.) It's not so much a problem of chicken and egg, as a matter of trial and error for survival and growth.  Jean said about as much - we create reality ourselves.

One of the things available from the Tiobetan Bardo Thodol tradition is a mandala of "six worlds" - three positive states of being (from the Hindu three gunas), built on activity and process (rajas), structural unity and integrity (tamas), and truthful awareness and wisdom (sattva) - and the three antithetical worlds in which we misuse these options. The essence of teachings in this area is to maximize our positive aspects, as before.

Back to work - see y'all later-
dave

hi Lucy. I'm impressed. just think about what you said for a minute, how fantanstically unbelievable what u said would sound like to someone who hasn't been to summerland or doesn't believe in their inner journies as having significance. Summerland is a very old early term spiritualists would use to explain what Monroe came along and renamed focus 27. focus 27 to me, is where most of us will escalate to upon leaving the body behind. I say leaving the body behind, because very few of us can increase the frequency of solid mass and just disappear into the other dimensions; I hear aliens can slip in and out of our dimension..disappearing according to a science we haven't got yet. I'm speculating J took his body by this kind of tune up.

the reason I like so much what u said here about perceiving out there, is because I had a similar experience and maybe birds of a feather flock together. I became an  orb with consciousness, and I could direct my consciousness all around me to perceive as I wished. like having eyes in the back of your head.
I quickly adjusted to being a mere orb; but you know, a few of these kinds of experiences and you begin to stop considering suicide as a way out, because it really is nice to start appreciating that we have a life, we have a body and it's a temporary journey. you can't get uptight if you know that. it made me feel free to be an orb. I thought wow, I want to do more of this kind of surfing!

thanks Lucy, yer a pal!

alrighty, since I have your permission Dave I'll interpret ;) the hard part in the dream was Dave figuring out how to be of service in his profession as hynotherapist. I could call you a facilitator, as you try to make it easy for them to go into their own subconscious and facilitating means to make easy. Life, at least physical life started out as something small in the water, and then a fish, and then it grew some legs and said "hey! I need legs to crawl out of the water, so I'll just sprout some. life is curious and like to walk sometimes, not swim all the time. so here's Dave and he knows something. he helps others who ask for his help. hes not really sure he should take money for his helpfulness. I say, yes, take the money; trust me its a genuine service.
money aside, Dave is saying to himself this is hard, I struggle to give them an arm and a leg and I don't see the full results I'd like to. the problem with working in these types of fields is we are all still exploring the mind. its not finished science and might never be.
so we see by your feelings in the dream that you feel its difficult. maybe theres not enough satisfaction to continue even, and you might feel that way sometimes.
yet the way I see it, I applaud that you even want to help others by giving them arms and legs, which only means, that these members are extentions of the mind. you're trying to give them what they already have and don't know it.
dreams are never goofy to me, but I love it when I show myself I can laugh about them too. so maybe you don't need my interpretation really, I think you are smart enough to interpret it yourself, but I enjoy what I seen in it and maybe I can come to your neck of the woods and shake your hand some day! I'm in CA now you know!

blessings, alysia

Well, to turn the description around, if I am a point of conciousness then why do I so adamantly think I have/need a body?

(and I'm very attached to mine...)

but if I am a point of conciousness, or if I do my thinking with a bodyless mind, it makes it easier for me to see that I could (Re-) experience other disk personalities..maybe I'm doing my thinking somewhere in my disk ...(or tapestry) instead of here, where I think I am.

It would be fun to be an orb and go around everywhere. How do I learn to do that?

So, the Method of Approximations has use in psychology and in the spiritual life.

Balance seems a good thing to go for. It is hard to come to grips with the idea that my good works may be as meaningless as my bad works.

another way to look at it: as we are mind, not bodies, our minds interpentrate the body cells. I don't think we need a body especially; it just gives mind a point of physical expression of identification. I don't know about anybody else, but personally I'm just hanging out on Earth nowadays. its seems so easy to leave the body as I don't identify it as what I am or who I am; just as a vehicle for this area, which does not release me from responsibility from taking care of it though!

I like what you said Lucy that : maybe I'm doing my thinking somewhere in my disk ...(or tapestry) instead of here, where I think I am.

I agree. I have a dual world going on. my tapestry is way ahead of my C1 thinking. I'd like to be able to catch up to it. perhaps I have high hopes?

Lucy said: It would be fun to be an orb and go around everywhere. How do I learn to do that?
____

if you are serious I'll write out a point by point thesis how I did it that one time. doing so will help me to understand it better too. you're right...at least I communicated the fun aspect...it was an experience I'd been waiting to have for at least 15 years or so..I'd been at it awhile. each time I write something down I understand it better so I'd be glad to do so..just not sure that it happens the same way for all of us to follow another's method, but sure would like you to experience the same thing and then come and post here! :D  let me know if I should do that, as I'm not sure I would be boring someone?

hugs, alysia

Yes Alysia do it, why not? I love this stuff.  :)

:D ok Vicky, you twisted my arm!

I had been trying to go obe forever and was frustrated with the efforts. bout ready to chuck the entire notion when thought I'd try something new.
my usual method was to lie flat as a board on the bed and simply wait for the vibrations. the vibrations would always come after wishing hard for a few days that they would, and that I'd then go obe.
it was fun thinking I even had this much control. I could make vibrations occur by pure desire; whoop de do!  but I'd always fall asleep after the vibrations and recall absolutely nothing where I'd been or even if I'd been somewhere by going out. I assumed I was exiting the body as a unit of consciousness.

to describe the vibrations, each of us experience it slightly differently. mine felt very pleasant, like waves all over the body originating in the crown chakra and flowing down the body. almost felt like PUL, although I didn't think of it that way then.
another time, recently felt the vibrations with the addition of a sound like a train rumbling through the platform of my mind!! what the 'ell? must have been one of my rusty chakras, but I swear this was real!

ok, back to point by point thing. was so frustrated with just the pleasurable vibrations never taking me to the mental planes I wanted to go to, I was thinking this and making the decision to give it up; I think someone was listening to me think these thoughts and assisted me that day, and so its hard to say I did this all on my own..must have had help as it just happened that I "popped" out and became an orb for what seemed like an hour, but was really only perhaps 15 minutes or 30.

I thought, well since I know you have to be relaxed to do this, I wonder why I relax so well I fall right to sleep? maybe if I sat in a chair then I would not fall asleep. so that was the new thing to try. I kept arguing with myself that this was too much work trying to relax and stay awake at the same time. lol...so I promised myself I wouldn't stress out while trying to relax!!  I remember some deep breathing exercises my spiritualist church had taught me. I used the in breath to count to 10, the out breath to count to 10. this is hard too. concentrating on the in and out breath shuts the mind effluvia up just long enough so you can pop out of the body; maybe...it worked anyway. as you're doing that you're thinking, would be nice if it worked...you're talking to yourself, or a guide. you're asking: will it work? the other voice is saying concentrate on the breath and shut up for one minute. you pop open an eyelid to see if you're still in the room. yup. still in the room. breath. you do the relaxing then by centering on each muscle of your body to consciously release the tension even in your toes and your eyelids. all my tension is on my face, so I had to relax each eyebrow, the lips, my tongue, yegads, I had to notice wherever I held tension; I had to relax all of it. finally, then you get an itch, and you relax the itch without touching it. meanwhile this voice in your head or your own self is asking you to make a plan. where do you want to go "if" you get out? so you pick a destination that you know about. maybe you visit a friend. you have to have a definete destination, and this is where I went wrong in all my other efforts, I just didn't have a destination; even if you want to go walk into the sun, something crazy, you have to have an idea where to sail or you're not getting out.

I'd been relaxing for close to 20 minutes thinking this is a waste of time really when I started to feel a peaceful quiet settle over me. I was completely content to just sit there. it no longer mattered if I got out or not it was so peaceful that I smiled at myself and just accepted myself that someday I would get this kind of knowledge if I kept focusing on it. and it didn't matter if it was today. thats when I felt something an action going on between my physical eyes, like a wind sensation. a small imaginary door opened there and a sensation of a pop, really subtle. I focused my awarenss in that part of my body. a body form formed on this little energy which seemed to glide forth. I followed it as this pinpoint of awareness that I was I and I had just succeeded to be going somewhere finally and completely aware of my physical body in the chair, as not being me, but since I had relaxed it, I had gathered the tension from it and now had impetus to travel out of it.

what if? what if I could? I kept wondering that. I meditated on it. for years. and even now as I sat there I wondered what if?
Bruce has breath exercises in his books and so he knows a secret of the breath, how it can quiet you down and deepen your mind levels.
In the back of my mind I'd asked for help. I believe there are invisible guides working these areas and so in my imagination they were there. what if it turns out its more than my imagination that they were there? and what if they are my disc members and we are all one?

hugs, alysia