Hi this is my first post although i have been ready other peoples posts for a while. Quick introduction im from sunny South Africa and I have a number of experenices within my life that cant only be concidences i shall share these with you at a later stage. I have just ordered Bruces books and have begun to read and along with a number of other spritual books i have some serious amount of reading to do , of which i can see will give me some answers but many more questions , but looking forward to finding out those answers.

With modern science today , surely it will only be a matter of time before a human being is cloned will a cloned human have a soul?

Thankng for your answers.

Welcome to the forum rNick.  I have wondered the same thing about cloned humans. At first I thought no. Then I thought 'why not.' It seems to me that a soul could just as well enter a cloned baby as a real human baby. Since we are more than our physical body...............!

It sounds like you have a lot of good reading to do. Enjoy. ;-)  And I'll be waiting to read of your experiences.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

Welcome rNick,
I've been wondering the same thing, looking into the eyes of cloned livestock, but just in photographs, wondering what was there. They seemed to have 'spirit.' Maybe life itself gives or is spirit. But a soul is another layer on top of spirit, I think.
National Geographic magazine (USA) once ran an article on a little English girl who was supposedly cloned. She was too far from the camera in her photographs to look into her eyes. I haven't heard of her since then, maybe 10 years ago, so she'd be in her late 20's by now. Perhaps others have heard how she's doing.
Perhaps someone of the Hindu faith, which seems to recognize more sacredness in sexual union, could help us out here.
bets

Betson...are you sure the little girl wasn't Louise Brown, the first (publicly acknowledged anyway) test tube baby?  She was born in the late seventies/early eighties, if I recall. The time frame and country would be right.  As far as I know they haven't cloned any humans (at least acknowledged) yet.

I don't see any problem with souls...cloned humans would go through gestation just like any other, and the soul could slip in just like any other.  Since a clone would be an exact genetic replica of it's "parent", it would be less of a "you buys your ticket and you takes your chances" deal for the soul than a regular birth... ;)

Reading this again and thinking more about it.........................it just occured to me that a journey could be taken to focus 27 to talk to a CW (consciousness worker) and ask about that. Hmmmm, something to think about. My guidance just urged me to write this.  ::)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

You can answer that question by thinking about identical twins today.  Do identical twins have seperate souls?  Of course.  They have seperate experiences, moral choices, events.... the same would be true about cloning (although for many reasons cloning would not work well even if we could pull it off).

Even if two creatures have the same genetic makeup they are not the same being, and if you are assuming that human beings have souls, then it makes sense to say that the original human and the cloned human would have seperate souls.

I think pratekya is right on thinking about twins.
Well people, if some"thing" looks like a human, acts like a human, and if you think humans do have souls, where's the problem then?
If you make restrictions, like for example, only people with a minimum of intelligence would have souls, or only children of married couples or this kind of things, well then of course it's different.
And what about apes? Pets? Babies? The earth? What is a soul anyway?
So, from this, I say everything you say of that it has a soul it has one, in your view.

Spooky

Hi rNick, im also from SA - nice to have a fellow countryperson aboard  :)

Will cloned humans have souls : i say Never; unless it is the will of God and from God.
But the world has its population why create a false population?

i say Woe be the day that cloned humans have souls.  Just the attempt of making a human in a lab suggests motives that are not part of the Cosmic plan.

This happened in Atlantis, cloned 'robot's were made and they became the slaves of Atlantis - this was one of the causes of the destruction of Atlantis - these 'robot slaves' began to take over.  (that movie irobot i reckon is a flashback of this; a movie yes but i do have literature on this subject)

The extreme danger is; these creations may be overtaken by forces that are not from God.
A serious serious mistake to allow this to happen. We could see the scenario of Atlantis play out again if this is allowed to happen.  Oh no! this cannot happen to our blue planet these creations will not have the Vital Force, the etheric body, the astral body, a Ego and they will not have a Soul of wisdom and love.

It must not happen.

Thank you Cricket, I think you're right about the little girl in National Geographic.

Certainly if God wants them to have souls they will.

This is just speculation on my part. Perhaps it's too serious to speculate about. Sometimes I like speculation because it gets the imagination going and opens possibilities.  But this yes or no question has fewer such possibilities. but it does have complications.

Spooky, I took souls to be a quality of energy/light that's instilled/infused  somehow 'on top' of other energies of life and spirit.  I was taking Krishnamurti's analogy of a human being made of numerous layers like an onion or a seed. In my mind I think of that analogy often. This question also reminded me of the voodoo curses and those humanoids that Tibetan rogue priests say they have made that soon go mad.
Certainly we can't go around and judge souls, I would agree.  

I also share the meaning that it is not to humans to create life by scientific manipulation or cloning, it's already bad enough people think to have the right of taking lives.

But, technically seen, a body is just a mechanical machine. It contains tubing, pumps, a computer, a sophisticated generator for energy and a high-tech waste system. Even if everything in the mechanical body is in working order, it can not function without a spirit.

If a person doesn't get air for a certain time, the body dies. If you look at the died body, technically everything should work or be able to work. But it won't if you make the heart pump a few times and add some air; the spirit has left.

Before you can answer the question, one should ask when the spirit enters the body of the premature baby. Does it enter as soon as the egg and the seed is combined, does it enter when it looks like a baby or with birth. And why does it enter?

Cloning means that you make an embryo with old cells, not with an egg and sperm, but with cells with altered DNA to make them think they are a furtilized egg. If the spirit enters it after it has formed a technically working body, why would that be a big mistake for that spirit?
It could be a very valuable lesson to learn?

That doesn't mean that I would approve it, but I think it would contain a spirit.

Greetings daan and all,
You are saying 'spirit'--- is that the same as 'soul'? My dog has spirit.  ;)
In Ancient Egypt did 'ka' and 'ba' refer to same aspect of human in afterlife?  I think this topic came up about 6 months ago and someone said there were 3 layers translated so far from ancient Egyptian.
What about the impact of the sperm on the egg? Isn't there an electronic explosion? Magnetic polarities? Would that energize some of spirit to a faster resonance that then became 'soul', capable of further exploration in 'astral'(?) realms?  Do they simulate all that in the lab?
Who do the cloned critters favor---only their mother?  Is there some bit of biological truth in the insistence of cultures on patriarchal lineage? I don't want a spark from an electronic wire for a father  :o  if that's how they stimulate their cell soup to become alive !

bets

Cloned Humans are bound to be made....since the technology is present...I am not going to discuss the ethics around this topic. However, the human body is a shell in which a soul lies... I don't understand why cloned persons wouldn't have a soul since they are perfect in their human functions. And if God didn't intent for them to be created then I am sure he wouldn't have made us capable of first making then and secondly of having the free will to decide whether to actually use them or not. As for Atlantis, I would be highly sceptical of any literature that proves anything. Being written in a book doesn't suddenly means that it is true.

Hi people,

from what I've personally got nothing can exist without having a soul. But, having said that, I must admit the term "soul" here must taken in wide variety of meanings. A human soul is different from an animal's soul and a plant's soul etc. The common thing is, the physical is only existing due to the matter of spirit because it is all consciousness anyway.

A human is a melting of body and soul, that's simplified but good enough to work with. This soul of a human is a special portion of consciousness, it' "married" with it's body. Some souls decide to leave their body forever without a bodily cause. In those cases, the body would desintegrate, if it's not overtaken by another soul which marries this body (which is said to me is absolutely rare) or overtaken by the humans group soul, which is better described as the human life's energy field, together with other semi-individualistic soul forms in this earth-life-systems. Then this body wouldn't desintegrate (die), but the former individualistic attributes would be faded away, the degree depends on how much the former incarnated soul is willing to work with this body from a distance or how much of the remembrance pool of this former incarnated soul is able to channel through.

Further, it has to be considered that actually a soul of a human isn't something as simple as a copy of the person with the only difference that it's "eternal". It's obvious that this is not fitting together. Without physical matter and different time and space laws it isn't likely to expect everything remains the same with the only difference that someone can't die and don't need to earn money. I just say this because when we are talking about biological humans, and some say clones might be biological humans but without souls, you know we are touching most sensible areas of humankind and everything must done for clarification of viewpoints to see where everyone is coming from, so who claims some humanoids might have no souls and are of evil, while others have souls and are true humans, and is this way dividing humans in the ones who are worth living, because they are from god, and others are not and free to be killed because they are not from God, this one has to put forth clear classifications and definitions what is meant by the term "soul", and who the prophet is who can hear clearly God speaking of what is God's will.

Got my point augoeideian?

Humans are manipulating their environment as long as they exist (like any other part of our life system, besides). And up to now, God let them do it. What is good and what is evil, we are the judges. We must decide what we want and what we don't want. What we see as evil, it is only evil because of our judgement. We are free to judge and should do it, but should keep in mind that it's our own judgement and shouldn't appeal to God's will.

Spooky

i got your point Spooky - did you get my point?

Can anyone make a seed, such as an acorn, and have it grow into an oak? Or make a protein containing 50,000 atoms such as are produced in the living human body, or hormones in apea-sized structure, as the pituitary gland and have these hormones regulate life process.  The atheist sciencist thinks he can because he thinks the process of creation is simple and says 'the atoms came together by themselves, for in such a way did man come into existence: out of the primeval BOOM, the primeval mists condensed into vapours, then to water, then to solid earth, and somehow along the way, a simple amino acid was formed, then a cell, a living cell! And this cell's progeny finally developed into man'.  Now, where did i miss the point as to how the amino acid became living? Or how was life added to the cell? And who formed the primeval mists and BOOM? Did the primeval mists form themselves? Hardly

Scientists say 'mutations are the very source of genetic variability, and so they are ultimately responsible for the evolution of all present forms of life'  the idea persists that if a chemist is able to produce an amino acid or any other substance, that life is created thereby. They miss a point;  In order to have life, etheric formative forces must interpenetrate the material, organising it, forming it and sustaining it.  Since scientists know nothing about such forces, it is inconceivable that they will be able to intelligently create such forces to interpenetrate their chemical creations in the right way.  That does not mean, however, that certain entities cannot enter and make use of what man brings about on earth.

And Spooky to clarify my point - unless it is from God.  God is the creator of everything (we may call God various names; the univeral one, the cosmic breathe, the divine spark, the collective consciousness although ultimately it is our creator) it is up to us to accept or reject our creator.
It is our free will (for we are not slaves) it is the entities that reject the creator that will manipulate and use these clones.

if one is unclear about what a 'soul' is - it is the seed of creation called 'me' part of the collective consciousness - individual and whole.  Our soul is the seed wrapped in our spirit to protect it.

Antwhs i take your point on Atlantis; so this statement of mine may be taken at face value unless one is interested in investigating the history of Atlantis further one will find corresponding points.
In the same theme just because technology exists does that mean clones do too?

Scientists should be working on the cure for the common cold, let alone aids or cancer, instead of trying to play God.  Some scientists are seeing the light though and once science and spirituality are joined in the working towards the common goal of unity of mankind and the understanding our creation than great strides in afterlife discovery will be made.  


Ps:  Spooky please dont think im fighting with you - im not you posted a very good post and it is good to debate everything. im just emphasising my point on what i think is a serious subject.

betson wrote on Jun 26^th, 2006 at 10:39am:

Greetings daan and all, You are saying 'spirit'--- is that the same as 'soul'? My dog has spirit.  ;) ! bets

Hi Bets,
I'm Dutch (that means I live in Holland) so I mean soul with spirit.  To me soul sounds like a sort of music and spirit is an alcoholic liquid, so I got to make a choice there, you see? ;D

augoeideian wrote on Jun 27^th, 2006 at 5:51am:

i got your point Spooky - did you get my point? Can anyone make a seed, such as an acorn, and have it grow into an oak? Or make a protein containing 50,000 atoms such as are produced in the living human body, or hormones in apea-sized structure, as the pituitary gland and have these hormones regulate life process.  The atheist sciencist thinks he can because he thinks the process of creation is simple and says 'the atoms came together by themselves, for in such a way did man come into existence: out of the primeval BOOM, the primeval mists condensed into vapours, then to water, then to solid earth, and somehow along the way, a simple amino acid was formed, then a cell, a living cell! And this cell's progeny finally developed into man'.  Now, where did i miss the point as to how the amino acid became living? Or how was life added to the cell? And who formed the primeval mists and BOOM? Did the primeval mists form themselves? Hardly Scientists say 'mutations are the very source of genetic variability, and so they are ultimately responsible for the evolution of all present forms of life'  the idea persists that if a chemist is able to produce an amino acid or any other substance, that life is created thereby. They miss a point;  In order to have life, etheric formative forces must interpenetrate the material, organising it, forming it and sustaining it.  Since scientists know nothing about such forces, it is inconceivable that they will be able to intelligently create such forces to interpenetrate their chemical creations in the right way.  That does not mean, however, that certain entities cannot enter and make use of what man brings about on earth.

Interesting, this conversation. Because they can't proove a soul in a living creature, they assume it doesn't excist. They can't make it visible, measure it's energy or anything else.
Another point where science needs PROOF to addapt any idea of spiritual energy.

Re: Spooky's reply #12--
I was glad to read that because reply # 6 sounded like soul-designation was arbitrary or that we didn't know if souls were anything beyond a word. (But then why would the word exist?) So then I was just trying to say that if it's not a layer perhaps it's the velocity of the energies.
Daan,
You said "I live in Holland) so I mean soul with spirit" --- :-?
Sounds like we all have different ways of making the mysteries more real to ourselves.  I'd never thought of soul and spirit your way but will give it a try.  It could be refreshing!

This discussion is edging more toward contentiousness than any I've read awhile, or maybe that's just my mood.  :-X I'll pass.
 [smiley=lolk.gif]   bets

betson wrote on Jun 27^th, 2006 at 8:31am:

Re: Spooky's reply #12-- Daan, You said "I live in Holland) so I mean soul with spirit" --- :-? Sounds like we all have different ways of making the mysteries more real to ourselves.  I'd never thought of soul and spirit your way but will give it a try.  It could be refreshing!   bets

In Dutch, spirit is the translation for "geest". That word has actually 2 translations. It also means ghost, but more in the meaning of a hectoplasmic 3d figure.

Soul means "ziel" in dutch, which is in my language more like the word "spirit" in english I guess.

In my former posts I use spirit there where I mean your true self, without the earthbound body attatched.

(sorry for the off topic..)

daan wrote on Jun 27^th, 2006 at 7:37am:

Interesting, this conversation. Because they can't proove a soul in a living creature, they assume it doesn't excist. They can't make it visible, measure it's energy or anything else. Another point where science needs PROOF to addapt any idea of spiritual energy.

Actually I would say that you can prove the existance of the soul, but you can only prove the existance of ONE soul and that is your own, or rather my own.

Augoeideian, you're right, scientists only can modificate what is already there. They cannot create physical and spiritual laws. How far they can get in modifying life forms, or even bring a composite of proteins to life, future will show (I've heard there is a program running to create new artificial bacterias from non-alive ingredients). But of course, the life in itself, this phaenomenon, they don't create.

You can be of the opinion that it is wrong to engineer with and modificate life forms (what about breeding and cultivating?). But another one can say humans are just following a cosmic plan to give evolution a special way; like humans could be seen as catalysts to accelerate some processes.

I personally have a pragmatic point of view: I simply find most attempts in this area overfluid and not useful, and especially in the case of humans, ugly and surely suffer-inducing.

Like in the most ethic discussions, there is no logic argumentation possible to the last degree. At a point the reasonning has an end and what counts then is what your gut or spirit tells you about what is right and wrong.

I agree, God is the creator of everything, including of the entities/people who deny God and including their creations. Think of a poor little clone. Maybe he/she/it would appreciate love and care from us, once he/she/it is existing.

And I think too there is much waste of time and money in the field of science and engineering. What do they want on Mars? There are sure better places for vacation.


Spooky

Hi Spooky

Thanks for your reply written with depth and understanding.

i do think genetically engineering body limbs like arms and legs has its merits and these bio-scientist should be praised for their research and work in this field thats helps humanity and goes with the forces of good instead of against.  i wonder what they are up to with the artificial bacteria - maybe the cure for the cold? i can only hope that is the aim.

i cant see how cloning could be of any help in the evolution process, let's face it the world has an over population problem as it is - like you say - there is enough suffering and yes imagine the first attempts (and all attempts) of clones they would be mutant and they would become a classification of people with no hope (if it ever got this far, please not) and they would feel different and excluded and trouble would start festering.  phew a scenario that we dont need we have enough unloved in the world.

Yes, the waste of money spent on things that are way over the top and could be spent on houses and implementing solar energy and sustainability for the proverty striken - they just need to be shown care and be educated in survival tactics (to be straight) and learn dont have more children than they can afford too.  

Yes what are they doing on Mars good point Spooky - how many billions are they spending and all kind of undercover like they own Mars.  Again maybe we should feel sorry for them - maybe this is their way of convincing themselves of their immorality; money and power.

If only they knew that Jupiter is being prepared for us in Spirit and in Spirit we will go there with no need for money or military infacstructure.  (lol i know Spooky another seemingly non logic statement that can be argued to the last degree - but i believe this)

Keep well my friend
Caryn

spooky2 wrote on Jun 27^th, 2006 at 7:33pm:

....You can be of the opinion that it is wrong to engineer with and modificate life forms (what about breeding and cultivating?). But another one can say humans are just following a cosmic plan to give evolution a special way; like humans could be seen as catalysts to accelerate some processes.... Spooky

Cloning humans has more disadvantages apart from being unethic. Weak spots of the cloned being are also 100% replicated! In a normal way of perception there is no replication, but a mixture.
In that mixture the best parts are copied into the new lifeform, so it compares which combination is best. If one of the parents has a disorder in the immune system, the chances are big that this disorder isn't replicated in the mixture. By cloning it will be exactly the same.

This in a world where everything else evolves (bacteria, etc) it could even cause the disappearing of the human beings, if cloning where the way to reproduce.

It also could be a problem that some organisations would want to clone humans for replacement parts. Stated that these cloned humans will have a soul, how unethic would it be to use them as living parts for others? Science doesn't accept the spiritual part yet, so they won't accept cloned humans as humans, but more like medical experiences.

Thats a very good point Daan - it will just end up being a mess basically hey.
The limbs should be viewed as artifical as well.

Interesting the Dutch word for spirit is geest .. ghost .. i suppose that is what our spirits are and i was wondering when i had my short out of body experience whether i was then a ghost.  I am sure my dog (although he was not around most prob sleeping in his kennel) would have seen me as a ghost!  Ziel .. another interesting word almost like .. seal .. but just using word association here with ziel.

:)

Hi daan, just a thought:
When everything is evolving as it did the way it did, humans will probably vanish in every case, just because of mutations. But it's difficult to say how fast this process is. Different species seem to be very different speeds of changing. My guess is...well, lets say in two million years humans will have turned to another species (without genetic engineering).

And about the recombinations- not only the "best" parts are combinated to the new genetic set. It's just the less fitter individuals had not as much children as the more fitter- natural selection. Although it may be not the whole story, and much is unsolved, I stick with the basics of the evolution theory, as they are gotten from many observations.

Spooky