I posted this experience on Linns  forum a couple of years ago.
Alysia asked me to dig it up and share with all of the good folks that live here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last night, I needed some more material for my book and a video that I am working on.   “Astral Projection for Beginners”.    As I shut down, will either use one of the basic AP or Monroe techniques with hemi-sync depending on what I need to do.  Bob Monroe gave a us a great gift called the REBAL.  Resonant energy balloon.   I use  it sometimes.

As I was crashing, found myself starting to leave via AP rather then the deeper transition to a higher plane via hemi-sync.    O.K.  .  AP it is.  As I woke up in the astral body, tested it  by moving my left arm and holding it in my face.  The physical left arm was still in place.  OK. I am in Astral mode for sure.    Floated out and waited.  A small black cloud of negative energy came at me.  Called up the instant REBAL.   ( Thanks Bob )   The cloud splattered off of it.    My Japanese guide  Sato appeared.  He shares my sense of  humor and thirst for adventure.

He asked me where I would like to go this time.  Told him that I have been to the various heavens many times.   Lets give hell a try.  It turns out that negative ball of energy was drawn to it and wanted to go too.

We floated through blackness for awhile and found  an area surrounded by wavy liquid metal.         Slid through it.  Was suddenly in an extremely large room.  My guide asked me if a prison would be adequate place to start.    I said yes.  The room was a prison reception area.  Didn’t like the feel of it. Had the Rebal handy, ready to use on a moments notice and got the very strong impression to not to let any of the emotional energies get to me.    

Knew they could turn into a trap.    Suddenly I was in line with the other prisoners being processed in.     When my turn for the interview came up. The guard said that visitors are not allowed here.  Told him that I am working on a book and a movie.  He sneered, told me that I was sick.    “If you insist on visiting us, I will make you miserable.”  He had a sick sadistic grin on his face.    He looked at his book.  Your cell mate is a  drug damaged  psychopath.  Will that be bad enough for you ?

My thought…. GULP  !!   He quickly added, that  if that is not  bad enough for you, I have a much worse hell you can visit.  Was shown a view of Dante’s hell.  Felt the emotional energy.  That scared me.  I said that I will settle for this one.     Went through the rules of the prison.  Found myself on a work detail outside with more strict rules being laid on me.

  Found that almost every one there insisted on being here.  Their only crime was a self imposed guilt trip.   There were a lot of murderers there including many war crime criminals who insisted on being there.  Was surprised by the large number of  soldiers from all over the world that  were there too.     Saw many of the crimes they committed as they unfolded.   It was rough.  

Told my guide I was ready to leave this place.       I am keeping this as short as possible because it was a very bad experience.  Glad I went.   I think  the guilt trips, feelings of remorse for  they did is the real crime, and not the crime it’s self.      None of them had to be there. They insisted on going.   There are many hells besides  Max’s and Dante’s, and the one I visited.  
There are also a large number of different heavens parked in  the lower dimensions.

From this experience I  learned that  guilt trips are a super no,no.  Drop them.  Because heaven  is always there and waiting for you no matter what.      

Also learned the importance of forgiveness, have made it a personal policy to forgive by default because the wrongs you dished out, and the wrongs coming your way are all part of the learning experiences that we go through down here for our spiritual unfoldment.   I can now say that I have been to hell and back  LOL   ;D

Love Bob  

Thanks for posting this here Bob. I remember reading it before. One thing I've never done is go to a hollow hell that I can remember. Don't know if I'd want to try that or not.  :o

Love, Mairlyn

so ah, Bob, when someone says go to hell to you..it must have an entirely different meaning.. :D

I'm so glad you posted this :-* you have a straightforward way of writing and no one can mistake your meaning and intent and the value of your experience. and it just goes to show you, we are the creators of our reality by our thoughts and deeds and yet we still have choice to punish ourselves or go forward in forgiveness of self and create our own environment. thanks for going to hell for me, as I feel like I don't need to go explore there now, Bob did it for me...lol....and you have done a lot for me over the last few years. ((((((Bob))))))))) :-*

Quite an amazing experience, Bob.  Thanks for posting it.  I think it was very accurate.  

About 30 years ago one of my favorite books was titled, "Life in the World Unseen" by Antohony Boriga.  He received all of the information for his book via "automatic writing" from a priest in England who had died in the early 20th century whose name was Robert Hugh Benson.  Here is an excerpt from his book in the chapter titled "The Lowest Realms":


Quote:

The denizens of the realms of darkness have, by their lives on earth, condemned themselves, each and everyone, to the state in which they now find themselves.  It is the inevitable law of cause and effect; as sure as night follows day upon the earth plane. Of what to avail and cry for mercy?  The spirit world is a world of strict justice, a justice that cannot be tampered with, a justice which we all mete out to ourselves.  Strict justice and mercy cannot go together. However wholehartedly and sincerely we may forgive the wrong that has been done to us, mercy is not given to us to dispense in the spirit world.  Every bad action must be accounted for by the one who commits it.  It is a personal matter which must be done alone, even as the actual event of death of the physical body must be gone through alone." "...But the Golden opportunity of spiritual reclamation is ready and waiting.  He has but to show an earnest desire to move himself one fraction of an inch towards the realms of light that are above him, and he will find a host of unkown friends who will help him towards that heritage which is his due, but which in his folly he cast aside."

It's a hard book to find but if you can find it, it's a very interesting read.  There are a lot of similarities between this book and Robert Monroe's and Bruce Moen's books.

I agree with you about the guilt trip thing but if someone murders someonelse  for very self centered reasons or if you willing partake in the genocide of another race the guilt that they would feel after their transition to the afterlife would be very hard to shake off.


One thing that I find unusual in your experience is the existence of an overseer or guard.  Do you think he was there punishing himself also or was he helping the prisoners to work off their karma?  or what?  I would really like to hear your thoughts on that.  Thanks.
Rick

The correct spelling is Anthony Borgia - by the way.

Im Re-writing the following sentence for clarification:

"I agree with you about the guilt trip thing but if someone murders someonelse  for very self centered reasons or if (someone) willing(ly) partakes in the genocide of another race - the guilt that they would feel (for their own actions), would be very hard to shake off (in the afterlife).

I hope that's better - sorry for the typos.

Thanks for the true words mediastreamer

As Maat; the weighing of the feather with the heart.

A saying from an Shinar Script:

'The Justice of God is too instantaneously comprehensive to be at all
thought of by Man, who, indeed, cannot be just because his nature
is bent to a strong line of self-advancement'.

It is not a creation of chaos, it is a creation of cause and effect and justice - purely for our own good and salvation i say.  That is a good question about the guard also i wondered if there are angels there, is it a choice for these darkened entities to carry on with their own agenda and to be ignored and forgotten by lighter beings or is it the role of lighter beings to cleanse the Cosmos and bring all into love and light.  A complex question that may be the cause of fractions and wars : whose right and whose wrong; ultimately is the instantaneous justice of God and His power that will prevail.  As a citizen of the Cosmos, albeit an infant, i think how can i strive for love in its highest attainment when things like this exist?

Peace and Love for all

" I think  the guilt trips, feelings of remorse for  they did is the real crime, and not the crime it’s self.  From this experience I  learned that  guilt trips are a super no,no."

Bob-

Well, if the above is true, the terrorists shouldn't have a thing to worry about.  When they drive a plane into a building, killing thousands of innocent victims, they are convinced they are carrying out the will of Allah.  They fully expect a life in paradise, being rewarded withKind  72 virgins.  The last thing they feel is guilt.  

Whereas a person who accidentally kills someone but who is wracked with needless guilt, ends up in a miserable environment when they die.

Kind of ironic if in fact it's our perception of what we do as opposed to the reality of what we do that determines the condition of our afterlife.

deep thoughts here on this thread about perception and guilt and how it puts you in hell versus the hijacker mentality who perceives not the crime against humanity.
my thought is if a crime is committed by a sadist who derives pleasure from such an act against another with that intention is a type of vampirism and a sell out of the soul to the image of power over compassion and disapline of the animal nature.

this above scenario will enact its own justice because this world is temporary by nature. and this act will have a different effect of justice (balance) than the hijacker who perceives that god's righteousness is calling him. it's sad, but every crook, every person feels they are "right."  traveling along in life one can eventually evolve with the help of higher thoughts/higher self perhaps to would you rather be right or be happy? so many seem to be experimenting here with their very own souls and some few come to an end of killing their own souls is my theory, because they had choice to do that.  the further thought is we are all one broken entity. whatsoever you do unto another, you do unto yourself only, for that other is you. there is no reward for having created mayhem despite the ego will say this is so. no sooner would the hijacker receive sexual pleasure from a host of clone like ladies in the afterlife than he would see the temporary and unfullfilling nature of an eternity of empty sensations and the sound of those voices of the dead reminding him that he stole their lives. this is true guilt which causes repentance and change within time or within eternity.
if I may speak for BobMc. here as I am very close to him, he speaks of shucking off guilt in a different light. I believe he minute we come into this world we come into a world which judges us as guilty, in my case, the earliest guilt was because I had been born. there is a strange mentality for some, which regards a newborn as a parasite, uninvited. that was my guilt to work through. In my particular case I did work it through and shuck it off and so I was successful to become innocent of this crime.
I believe Bob is expressing that he has become a fearless creature; he feels now invincible he has stated many times, within his deepest spirit. that he feels like this is a statement of triumph over his physical appetites from the act of serving humanity, as he works in places where death and life happen and does retrievals. Guilt is a mask over fear. there are only 2 choices...choose love, or choose fear.
fear runs this world as does guilt. to choose love does not mean you will always be right, but it leads to peace and happiness even in the midst of chaos.
hugs, alysia

Thanks for the great feedback, and thanks for your help Alysia.  You hit it right on the head as usual. You have never ceased to amaze me by your keen in depth insight on what is actually happening.

Come checkout time, we all carry a "get out of jail free" card that we can use at any time.  Most of the time, we never use it because we did not know we had one.   Even then, many of us that finally realize that they have one, still insist on doing it the hard way and serve their time for the crime so to speak.         For those who check out serving their belief system, it may be a little different.  The reward that they are expecting may or may not happen until they complete the full transition to a higher state.

 Some of them will try to move on and collect that reward.   We have this thing called "Life Review" after checkout time.   This life review can be scary for a lot of people because you will see how your most minute thoughts affected your whole universe and the people around you.   For most of them, it's a pretty scary experience.  They quickly lose interest in that reward and will want to make amends for the damage they inflicted.     Some of them will insist on making a beeline for Dante's hell, or the one I visited.   There are many versions out there. Something for every taste so to speak. LOL  :-)  

This will be an ongoing thing for us for a long time in our dives down here.  We also have this thing called Karma.

You must pay it back...Hold on for just a moment, are you sure about that?  

Over a period of time, I finally realized that you don't have to pay it back.  Karma belongs in the worlds of duality, below the 1st grand division where opposites appear, black, white, male, female, cause and effect etc.       Once you go above that, everything takes on a different perspective so to speak.      This is a hard one for us to handle.  O.K.   I had a rough time with this one too.    

What about the bad guy?  In time, I finally realized that the "bad guy" might have been doing us a favor by playing that role.     In some cases, the "bad guy" was only serving as a mentor for us to learn.  There are situations where the bad guy is really a bad guy and stay in their/our most current concept of hell, as we perceive it at the moment.    They make a dive down here, do their damage, check out for a little while and come back again.     They’re still serving their purpose by providing some of our harder lessons down here.  In time, some of them may wake up.  There are a few that will even disappear into pure undefined energy....pfffffft !

In time, we will start getting a better handle on why we are down here in the 1st place.  We will continue to make mistakes along the way.  That’s OK too.

If you didn’t make mistakes , you are probably defeating your purpose for being down here in the 1st place !!     In time, you will remember that you still have your “get out of jail free”  card in your pocket.  By the time you are ready to use it, you will probably not need it !!  Love Bob :)

That´s a nice thought Bob, the get out of jail for free card.. Everyone bashes his nose sometimes.. An interesting experience, thank you for sharing.

mediastreamer wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2006 at 5:54pm:

Quite an amazing experience, Bob.  Thanks for posting it.  I think it was very accurate.   About 30 years ago one of my favorite books was titled, "Life in the World Unseen" by Antohony Boriga.  He received all of the information for his book via "automatic writing" from a priest in England who had died in the early 20th century whose name was Robert Hugh Benson.  Here is an excerpt from his book in the chapter titled "The Lowest Realms": Quote: The denizens of the realms of darkness have, by their lives on earth, condemned themselves, each and everyone, to the state in which they now find themselves.  It is the inevitable law of cause and effect; as sure as night follows day upon the earth plane. Of what to avail and cry for mercy?  The spirit world is a world of strict justice, a justice that cannot be tampered with, a justice which we all mete out to ourselves.  Strict justice and mercy cannot go together. However wholehartedly and sincerely we may forgive the wrong that has been done to us, mercy is not given to us to dispense in the spirit world.  Every bad action must be accounted for by the one who commits it.  It is a personal matter which must be done alone, even as the actual event of death of the physical body must be gone through alone." "...But the Golden opportunity of spiritual reclamation is ready and waiting.  He has but to show an earnest desire to move himself one fraction of an inch towards the realms of light that are above him, and he will find a host of unkown friends who will help him towards that heritage which is his due, but which in his folly he cast aside." It's a hard book to find but if you can find it, it's a very interesting read.  There are a lot of similarities between this book and Robert Monroe's and Bruce Moen's books. I agree with you about the guilt trip thing but if someone murders someonelse  for very self centered reasons or if you willing partake in the genocide of another race the guilt that they would feel after their transition to the afterlife would be very hard to shake off. One thing that I find unusual in your experience is the existence of an overseer or guard.  Do you think he was there punishing himself also or was he helping the prisoners to work off their karma?  or what?  I would really like to hear your thoughts on that.  Thanks. Rick

Hi Rick,
The guard who was screening the prisoners was an advanced soul.   They work at all levels.  It takes a special type of person to handle a job like that.  Many of those "guard's " were former prisoners who are watching and waiting for some of their prisoners to wake up.  When that happens, they will be the very first person who will help you use your get out of Jail  Free Card !    In many ways, I guess you could call it a retreival of sorts.   Bob

Thanks Bob.

This is all very enlightening stuff.  Especially when thinking about our current  national/world crises.  The terrorists think the west is evil and is going to hell and the western world thinks the terrorists are evil and going to hell.  Who's right?  The way I see it ( and I'm sure Bob would agree), we're all stuck in hell until we learn to forgive.  This appears to be such a difficult pill to swallow for both sides.

During the Vietnam crises a friend of mine had a dream.  In the dream she saw God as a parent on the battlefield weeping over a dead American soldier.  He was sobbing as if he had lost a son.  Then a shot rang out on the other side of the battlefield and a Viet Cong soldier went down.  He was dead.  God ran over to the Viet Cong soldier and began to weep over him in the exact same manner.

Kind of puts an interesting perspective on things doesn't it?

Forgiveness seems to be the only way out.

What a beautiful dream your friend had.

Forgiveness and Love. ;-)

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

theres nothing heavier in this world to carry than a grudge..
http://images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/kiwibird.gif

Thank you all! Wow, what an amazing thread with great insights from everyone! You've all hit on something grand and there are many life lessons/truths to what has been written... I'm so glad that I have found this forum for I feel like I have discovered a new & familiar family here...

Thank you all for being you,

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

and I'm glad u joined us Cosmic. I think you add a lot. we have had our ups and downs here, but for what the site offers, on a topic seldom spoken of in the mainstream, I've never found a better place on the internet that I could feel at home.
hugs, alysia

Bob, what true words you have written.  You are right, everything has its time and place and we need the bad to know the good - and find out that the bad is an inversion of the good.  Also, the scene may be a projection of teachings and not necessarily real.

Alysia your words - we are all one broken entity - reminds me of a distant song i once knew but cant quite remember the tune.

Lots of nourishment here.

Lots of Love to you too CA and everyone :)

mediastreamer wrote on Jun 26^th, 2006 at 10:19pm:

Thanks Bob. This is all very enlightening stuff.  Especially when thinking about our current  national/world crises.  The terrorists think the west is evil and is going to hell and the western world thinks the terrorists are evil and going to hell.  Who's right?

In the rules of the bible is the answer. Don't do things to others you wouldn't like to undergo yourself.


Quote:

During the Vietnam crises a friend of mine had a dream.  In the dream she saw God as a parent on the battlefield weeping over a dead American soldier.  He was sobbing as if he had lost a son.  Then a shot rang out on the other side of the battlefield and a Viet Cong soldier went down.  He was dead.  God ran over to the Viet Cong soldier and began to weep over him in the exact same manner. Kind of puts an interesting perspective on things doesn't it? Forgiveness seems to be the only way out.

Foregiveness is equal to love, you can't forgive without love and love forgives.
That is a very clear and beautifull dream which should be in the newspapers all over the world!!

yea, the newspaper! they put a special section; human interest stories they call it, but you don't find inspiration in the newspaper yet..we are not there yet. maybe a bunch of us should get together and make our own newspaper? ;D  well, maybe Bruce will let us call this place our own media paper. 8-)
hugs, alysia

Hi all and hey Daan - i really like your posts especially the metaphor of being Dutch (Spirit) in Holland (Soul) that is lovely! and your post on scientists which i'd like to read again - going to look for it again after this  :)

Alysia what a great idea, our own newspaper - brilliant!

i have stopped reading newspapers for about a year now and my life is so much calmer without the hype they carry.  As you say; the front page is always doom and gloom shoved in our faces, we cannot deny this is going on sure but does it need to be front page first thing we see every morning - man rapes a corpse - for example here yesterday front page news great way for a nation to start its day, stuck all over the lamp posts as well - what do our children think?

Front page and content should be uplifting, inspiring and motivational stories - stories of people doing good things because there are but somehow they dont make the news.  Society is in the hands of people up to no good i say.

There are not great people in this world, only great challenges which ordinary people rise to meet  :)

Quote:

There are also a large number of different heavens parked in  the lower dimensions.

Bob - when you get a chance could you expand on this a bit.  I know you put that sentence in there because you felt it was important information.  I can only imagine what you meant by it.  I would rather hear it straight from you.  Thanks in advance.
Rick

Rick, it may take Bob a few days to respond to you but I received word that he was going to start posting here again due to the board has been cleaned up of some previous negative influences which he did not want to participate in understandably and so I'm thrilled if Bob comes more regularly!!!

He has a lot to say. someday he may publish a book and I would be the first to read it avidly. so i just wanted to say I know how busy he is and if we get a post from him it's totally a gift, lol, like from heaven!  bless you Bob for what you've already posted and for the way you generate our curiosity!

with love, alysia

Thanks Alysia,
Yeah I know Bob has a book in him.  If I was a publisher I would be chasing him down!

Ditto Mediastreamer. I'm not a publisher; but I did chase him down. I always chase Bob! hugs, alysia

Thank you Rick and Alysia  !!  :-)  Penning a long reply to you.  Love talking about  the  heavens.  Right now, I am temporarily stuck in the fast lane  of  a 12 lane highway..  Just posted an item on the Astral Museum on this board.

Will get back to you as soon as I can.     Love Bob  :)  

[Bob:] " I think  the guilt trips, feelings of remorse for  they did is the real crime, and not the crime it’s self.  From this experience I  learned that  guilt trips are a super no,no."
________________________________________________________________________

Roger replies:

"Bob-

Well, if the above is true, the terrorists shouldn't have a thing to worry about.  When they drive a plane into a building, killing thousands of innocent victims, they are convinced they are carrying out the will of Allah.  They fully expect a life in paradise, being rewarded withKind  72 virgins.  The last thing they feel is guilt.  

Whereas a person who accidentally kills someone but who is wracked with needless guilt, ends up in a miserable environment when they die.

Kind of ironic if in fact it's our perception of what we do as opposed to the reality of what we do that determines the condition of our afterlife."
_______________________________________________________________________

Roger,

Succinct but astute critique!  Clearly, Bob's interpretive overlay has affected his perception of what he saw and experienced.  I think the moral of this matake is this: the principle of like attracts like governs the afterlife.  But the sense in which one's state is self-chosen remains unclear and needs clarification.  Could a sadistic rapist who expiriences no guilt manipulate the "system" to ascend to Focus 27?  Could he then put on a goody-twoshoes act to rest up for his next reincarnation and then continue his sadist rampage with virtual astral impunity?  I think not.  

AUnderstandably Bob initially seeks to determine whether his astral body is independent of his physical body.   I have done the same during my own bogus OBEs.  I would lie over my supposed physical body and see if my "physical" fingers would move when I moved my astral fingers.  They did not.  But in my case, this was no indication that my OBE was real, though it was very vivid.  Despite my disagreement with Bob's "spiin" on his experience, I'm glad that he posted this and am unwilling to dismiss his experience as bogus.   In that respect, I can only speak for myself and none of my OBEs are more than lucid dreams.  

But even here, I maychange my mind about my ability to contact discarnate spirits my dream encounter with a supposedly deceased friend RJ proves correct.  My encounter with RJ was sooo real and I now have what seems to be his phone number (same name, same town).  But after repeated calling for weeks, no one has yet answered!  i will continue trying.  Meanwhile, Bob, keep posting your experiences.  Despite my skepticism, I try to engage all such reports with "a beginner's mind."

Don  

Hi Rog and Don,
I respect your skeptism even though I find it to be a little antagonistic.  You remind me of a couple of people on the outside looking in.  You can do that, and pick  a lot of worse case scenario's. They could be valid and quite possibly workable from your perspective.     What are you looking for ? Validation, or another perspective, albeit, a less friendly one to destroy with your chronic antagonistic skepticism ?       I don't appreciate any of it. Which was why I quit posting here until recently.         Man... I feel for you !    You remind me of a couple of people in a lot of pain.  Once you start getting close to god, the world changes.  Your on the inside looking out.   At this point , your driven by a powerful love for god. There is nothing else. It's kind of hard to describe until you experience it.     I am not special in any way, just a rank newbie because I have reached the point where the more I learned, the less I realized what I did not know.

I'm to the point where I know nothing.  From there, all that I have learned has been "caught", from exploring on my own.  I am just a little envious of you two because both of you may still be at the point where you have all the answers and in a safe position to correct us who are not as enlightened as you.   I could learn from you.
I know you are looking, please try to be a little more friendly about it.  "Is it True ? ~ Is it Necessary ?~ Is it Kind ?

If it passed those test's it would go out.     Love Bob  :)

Rob,

I'm afraid you are being petty in the face of honest questioning.  Neither Rgger nor I claimed that your experience was bogus--only that my closest parallel OBE dreams are bogus.   Also, any claims about the mechanics that draw souls to a given plane must be srutinized for logical coherence and consistency with the claims of other OBE adepts.  Otherwise, this site would get locked into a series of solipsistic and incoherent views of afterlife principles.  I read and repacted to your thread only because I was personally invited to do so.

Your hostility blinds you to my encouragement that you continue to post such experiences and to my concession that I might change my mind.  Also, you ludicrously assume that I have had no astounding afterlife experiences.  I'd wager I've had better verifications than you have--just not verifications through OBEs.  Actually, you penchant for making such assumptions raises the question of how prone you are to impose your preconceptions on your supposed astral experiences.   I try to avoid  this by being ruthelessly honest about my capacity to victimized by my own wishful thinking.  I'm told by some posters that my self-crticism is the reason why my contacts with the dead interest them more than other such experiences posted on this site.  Anyway, chill out.  It is you who made this thread unfriendly, not Roger and I.

Berserk

hi all. I admit I didn't read Rog or Don's comments. spirit won't let me read certain people as they bring me down and I have to keep my energy at the highest level I can not only for my own benefit but for my children and for all people around me.

be that as it may, I read most people and find much kindness, much sharing, much open mindedness and honest questions here. thats why I read Bob Mc. I know the real thing when I see it. sure, it all boils down to opinion and thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it. how I come to my opinion is I meet people out there; I have nothing to prove. I could die right now and be estatic about it. I'm through with this world and can leave anytime because I burned off all karma. I don't want to leave my friends though and Bob is one of my very best friends I have been lucky enough to find after having met him out there and retaining the full memory of those meetings. anybody wants to feel jealousy about that, go ahead, but I'm only here to inspire you to do these journeys yourself and break through your nonbelief so I would hope you could find not skepticism here, but inspiration to evolve yourself. and I'm sure Bob's reasons for posting here are the same as mine; not to cause jealousy but to inform and share.
by reading Bob, I don't have to read the posts which caused Bob to say what he did. my imagination is sufficient. I am saddened, as if Bob leaves after he just came back, then that makes me want to leave too.  I wanted to see a change for this board. I've poured my heart out here for years and noticed a pattern. we'd see some honest sharing, then we'd a period of struggle and strife, some name calling, some ego, well, a lot of ego. we don't have to do this you know. we don't have to post here; we can just let the skeptics have their wars; but whats the point? if we can't share something valuable, a experience which meant a lot to us, and feel safe to do that, to give a piece of ourselves away to humanity, if we can't express ourselves freely in positive manner, I wouldn't blame Bob for going off to do his many fascinating projects he does, and believe me, like I said, if you get a chunk of Bob, you have something to write a book about or at least get your appetite wetted for further exploration. and I agree with him..if you can't say something good why bother?  people have better things to do than spar with you on this board in support of your own beliefs by trying to tear down another's beliefs.
anybody who hasn't posted yet, who enjoyed reading Bob, please let him/us know if you did so we can keep him here, or at least have him once in a while show up. Bob is not the kind of guy to waste the precious moments of life being made to look foolish.  'nuff said. love you Bob.

I have a question: were animals there too, for instance, animals who killed another animal to eat it for it's lunch.

Thanks.

Animals don't eat other animals in the afterlife. Here on earth is the only place this happens. The animals all live peacefully together on the other side. Humans should learn from them.

Namaste
Mairlyn

Alysia, I totally agree with you. And I hope Bob doesn't leave again. His knowledge and experience is very much needed here. [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

Love, Mairlyn  [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif]

thanks for responding Mair. I learned a long time ago if you don't tell people you appreciate them, then they just don't know. every voice counts. we effect each other  in countless ways. I just don't get it sometimes; why people don't treat each other right. I guess I might have this type of tunnel vision, but I guess our experiences is what makes us different and can lead to arguments and no kindness being shown. maybe humans are born to be ungenerous. I hope not. I better get some sleep, I'm starting to think crazy. love, alysia

Well, I don't think humans are born ungenerous. They pick up 'traits' from their parents and later kids at school. (I went to bed but couldn't sleep so here I am at it again lol)  You know, I'm always studying people anymore trying to figure out what makes them tick.

Luv ya, Mairlyn

About 8 years ago I picked up one of Robert Monroe's books at a book store and began reading certain sections because the topic interested me.  I read a passage in the book (I don't even remember which one) that made me completely skeptical.  I said to myself, "That just can't be true!  I don't believe it...trash!".  I put the book down and walked out of the store.

Five years later I came across Monroe's "Ultimate Journey" in a library and began reading it.  It astounded me!  I couldn't put it down.  I resonated so powerfully with it.  It felt as though he was speaking in a language that spoke directly to my soul.  I knew I had some of the same experiences as Robert Monroe but couldn't quite recall them.  I've read and re-read it several times now.  As well as Far Journeys and Journeys Out of the Body.  And as I progress I get more and more out of them.

So what had changed during those 3 years? To be honest, I'm not really sure.  But there was a profound change and looking back I can only wonder, "Why couldn't I see it back when I picked up the book in the store?  How could I have been so blind?"  And to really heap it on, "why did it take me 30 years of searching for the truth about the afterlife to finally find this information that seems so obviously true to me now?"

One of life's great lessons is to learn how much you don't know and to be patient with your own learning process.  And don't say things that you're going to beat yourself up about in the future.  I've learned that one the hard way.

Rick

well if it's any consolation it took me about 30 years also Media, to get to a place where I "remember" things that happened to me of paranormal degree and which I had no explanation for until now. I've always been openminded, but it's not until now I started figuring out things enough to write it down. then writing it down would spark off more memories. so maybe this trec through life is indeed a consciousness gathering process. just to become aware of who we are. I never get too far down, as I figure it's better to have a lousy life than to have no life at all. lol..I always look for the positive, even under rocks, and I somehow I've been finding it.
hugs, alysia

wrote on Jul 1^st, 2006 at 4:34am:

Well, I don't think humans are born ungenerous. They pick up 'traits' from their parents and later kids at school. (I went to bed but couldn't sleep so here I am at it again lol)  You know, I'm always studying people anymore trying to figure out what makes them tick. Luv ya, Mairlyn

I know what u mean Mair. when I die I'll be at the computer; my fingers stuck to it in rigor mortis. you're right, people are not born ungenerous to others..its a learned thing. I too want to find the good in people..I need to find it, I need to believe in it, its my mission. thanks for being one of the people who was kind to me as I floated by and attached myself emotionally to this forum. its people like you the reason I wanted to call it home. hugs, alysia

Thank you dear Alysia.


Quote:

when I die I'll be at the computer; my fingers stuck to it in rigor mortis.

What a visual I got from this. In fact, my fingers started feeling sticky on the keys. ROFLMAO

Love, Mairlyn

I'm probably getting off topic..but something good happened today. I found a guy who believes in aliens and I actually got my fingers off the keyboard long enough to have a good conversation with a physical person. most of my relating is done here when it concerns afterlife exploration or whatever..lol..the things that matter to me. as we talked I noted facial expressions send messages, tone of voice was nice to hear and get messages from, body language says tons..what else to see if a person is honest, tells their story truthfully? its like you know when they are being helpful and when they don't care to be assisting you except for whats in it for them. well this guy had that honesty vibe. my point is, relating on a forum, its probably the idea of being able to express yourself here, writing it down, it really helps you set your priorities straight to feel ok with whatever we wonder about and the experiences we have that we can't talk about in general with the man in the street. I've grown so much here..its incredible. nobody knows and there are no words for my gratitude. but the answers you get back...there not always going to be positive. thats life. Bob said something about if someone is hurting, it comes out in your post. if we only know the hurting part of life, thats what we dish out to others. but still, if you love others and show it, people love you back. what u give u get back. maybe not the person you wish would respect you does. but eventually, you will get back what you put out. its a spiritual principle and it works. its so simple, I don't even talk about it much. you just assume everybody knows something so simple, but I guess I should not expect the growth I was expecting here to see as its just my personal experience and not anyone elses..I will just allow life to be as it is. tell your story guys, just be as truthful as you can and don't sweat the small stuff.

hugs, alysia

Hi Guys,

This is my first day back from a forced (?) 2 month break from C1.  I  made a couple goals for July including getting back to the board.  I was thrilled that I was able to log in using the pass word reminders Bruce e-mailed me back in April.  I cried when I was able to pull up Alysia’s profile, my indication that I was a contributing member again. The hard part was to select which thread to respond to so I chose the Guide Book thread and proceeded to explain where I had been  these past few months.

Then because there is so much input on the board these days, I decided to check out the tone of the threads to see if anything has changed.  I noticed that as I scrolled through the first 5 pages of the conversation board  that I didn’t see any threads started by our family of firmly entrenched skeptics but I did notice that Bob Mc is here and I’m thrilled.  I’m always fascinated by the tours to hell because there is always that scary edge of whether or not I’d be sucked into what I see and forget my mission or to call for help. Although after what I’ve been through these past few months, I think that’s less likely.

But I still keep thinking that to keep the board healthy, we need a LIMITED amount of input from these skeptics not only to test our tolerance in letting them be, as Alysia is suggesting, but to let potential explorers know what they might be up against should they choose to check Monroe/Moen’s stuff  The balance is delicate especially since the country and global community appears to be dichotomizing.  It’s also delicate when the main purpose of the site is to provide tools and feedback for exploring the afterlife in the now while being still in the physical .  I know that I would not have gotten as much out of my experience in early May if I had not been supported by many here including the skeptics, who are committed family members although they sometimes waffle a bit, or had the M/M background.  

Love, Jean  :-*

   

Welcome back Jean. I know I've already welcomed you back in one of the book club threads but I wanted to do it again. It's so good to see you here once more.

Love, Mairlyn ;-)

I too am happy to see Jean back.  She tells it like it is.  However, I don't see Don's comments or Roger's as being so antagonistic.  The question of suicide bombers believing they will go to heaven with 72 virgin brides is an interesting one.  It gets to the heart of the problem about belief and reality.  

Don asks can a serial rapist "fake" his way into a heaven?  Or could a homicide bomber get their because they believe they will?  The answer, clearly is no.  Bob gave an excellent reason why - the life review.  Now, it is true that some NDEs are reported without life reviews, but many people remember them.  I don't care what one thought he/she believed, when confronted with the truth of the harm and damage done to another living soul - and when in spirit, there is no hiding from the truth.  

You can brainwash some into thinking they will be rewarded with virgins, but deep inside they know the golden rule.  All races have heard of "thou shalt no kill."  You can not sublimate those precepts, try as you might, even if a Mullah is telling you it is God's will.

So my take on it all is not that you can committ atrocities at will and then use your own belief to go to heaven.  For your core belief knows better; your highest self knows what is good, and true (cosmoethical as Kyo calls it).  

I think you guys are being too hard on Don and Roger.  Read their responses on this thread.  They debate but do not disparage.  Jean, the highlights on this board for me have been when all members are in action.   Including the Dave-MBS, Don, Alysia, yourself, Kathy, Bruce, Roger, Mair, and the newer additions (Augo, Spitfire, Cosmic, Betson).  

Bob truly is a perceptive guy; his comments to Don showed that.  But I don't think there was enough in Don or Roger's remarks to get worked up about.

Bob, one day I hope you will start a thread on sensory deprivation - I sense from your posts you have some familiarity with this and how it helps to explore the afterlife.  I have always wanted to go into a sensory deprivation tank, if it wasn't too claustrophobic.


Best,

Matthew

Hi all,
the life review indeed is a strong reason why those people are not getting easily to heaven. The life review in a NDE is often reported to be very insightful, including the effects of the own deeds on other people, thoughts and feelings of the others are perceived.

But possibly, it isn't to everybody the same lucid and reflective experience necessarily. I once had a retrieval and I got the info that the retrievee hadn't seen her life review yet. It felt like a waiting place. Also I had retrievals where I hadn't got this info in specific, but where it was unthinkable that the retrievees had a life review, they just weren't in the shape for this.
If one holds it for possible that people go to "their" belief system, one has to deal also with the possibility of "heaven" for persons considered as bad.

But, this heavens in the end are not heavenly. A person who hasn't shown a bit of sympathy, compassion for others, to what "heaven" could this one go? Only to those that this person is capable of, what this person was able to wish and imagine. So whatever system or picture this uncompassionate person had of heaven, this person for sure wouldn't find compassion there. The picture this person had may come true, but it will turn out as robotic and hollow soon enough.

I recommend reading in Bruce books the chapter of the "Fires Of Hell" (and maybe around this chapter, if you've read it you will find it again). There Bruce is talking about those hardcore people who have resisted all attempts to lift them up, to make a stronger connection to their disc and instead follow their desastrous passions in the Belief System Territories. They had to turn around before going to what we would call heavenly, and the harder they are, the harder would be the cleansing. Some make it and become "Fires Of Hell", their love energy is radiating such intense. They're prodigal sons who have come back as new shiny persons.

Spooky

Just wanted to add something about the idea of Islamic hijackers not suffering if they get to their BST/hollow heaven...

I can't claim this as definite, but I believe I was shown that BST once, as I've written about before on here.  Yes, the virgins were there, and yes, there was a lot of food there, and yes, the garden was somewhat ornate...but there was also a very high wall around the whole thing, and no doors that I could see.  A guilded prison is still a prison.

Also, as far as the sexual gratification element is concerned...that's not heaven.  Inmates in male corporeal prisons receive homosexual gratification from each other.  Inmates in corporeal prisons are also fed.  Sure, in physical  jails they might not get quail or venison, but in the context of eternity, (or very close to it) that's hardly a major point.

I'm not meaning to bash Islam specifically at all by writing this, but what I am meaning to say is that the depiction of heaven in all of the major religions (Islam included) that I've seen hasn't really been anything all that great.  The common element basically describes an eternal continuation of what would be considered positive conditions in a physical environment, with no variation.  A great song about this is actually called Heaven, by the Australian band Icehouse, if any of you are interested in finding it.

The only true heaven for me anyway is freedom of movement, with the opportunity for endless diversity of experience, exploration, and development.  A fixed, repetitive amount of physical gratification within a walled box is exactly the opposite.  

It doesn't matter how opulent it might look on the surface.  It's a prison, and it will ultimately cause just as much torment as Dante's representation of Hell, given enough time.  People who go to such a place are not getting away with anything.

excellent, well said. I've been trying for ages to say the same thing. movement is life in abundance to me, what true abundant spirit means is a feeling of being alive fully, not stagnant or stuck in a belief system with no variation. I shall remember this post you wrote in case I'm called upon to illustrate a belief system stuckness.

with love, alysia

Hi Petrus,
You just added another missing piece to my ongoing puzzle. I knew that your most current belief would determine what you could expect at checkout time.  That being the case, the suicidal bombers should expect their "reward”.     That seemed to fit because they earned it.  

What about the life review thing after checkout?  To them, that may not happen for a while because they are not aware of it.  They are going to collect and enjoy their reward for serving their god.   Doesn't seem fair doe's it?

When you brought up the wall….  Ah Ha!!  That’s the missing piece!

That’s when things fell together.  So they go to their reward not knowing it is a prison of sorts.  The wall has an added bonus of keeping the “infidels” out LOL   ;D

In time, the reward will wear off; they start looking and realize that there is a lot more going on and start exploring.  I guess most of them may realize that they took a wrong turn somewhere and eventually have to deal with it.
I know there are a lot of blanks in that area for me right now.

On the life review, most of us checkout knowing that will be our next step “Judgment”, with you being your own judge.  We go there because we are expecting that after checkout.

I guess there are some cases where the life review is not an immediate event as I once thought.   Learning all the time!!   Love Bob  :)

Greetings---
Relatedly,
Today on AOL they quoted the current pope as saying that he had seen (his) heaven and that it did not compare with the Vatican. He greatly preferred the Vatican---which has walls and is gilded.
(So now the Islamists cannot say that this thread is biased against their beliefs, because it gets a bit more complicated than that.)
bets

Quote:

When you brought up the wall….  Ah Ha!!  That’s the missing piece!

Somewhere else that I just remembered seeing a representation of this is in the film Gladiator.  At times in it we're shown the Elysium BST...and again, although there are fields inside it, it's depicted with a wall around it and a single door leading in.  The same is actually true of the description of the New Jerusalem given in Revelation...the wall is a very consistent element. :)

Petrus said
"...The same is actually true of the description of the New Jerusalem given in Revelation."

Uh-Oh! Could you spell out what might be inferred by that?!  I think I'm blocking it.  :-?

bets

Hi Bob,

I have to disagree with one point.  The life review has been reported in many NDEs by people who had no previous notion of it.  It even surprised them.  So I don't think the terrorists need to believe a life review will come.  It seems universal.  

As for their "reward," I don't think you can fool your soul.  And so, after death, either with a life review or with their sould recognizing the pain and terror they inflicted, their spirits must realize fairly immediately that this is not the path to God.  They knew it on earth, you see, only not in their waking brains.  It just becomes obvious, after death.  

They may have a hollow heaven - I'm not really sure.  But with like attracting like, and the laws of karma (reaction and opposite reactions), I'm fairly certain they will be unhappy.

One can not kill, maim, and then happily ascend in vibration to love and God.  At least not without some rehabilitation.


Matthew

Having just read this thread, I think a couple of things need to be looked at here.

This board has its own 'energy', 'vibration', or 'feel' to it that is different from say, Linn's board. No one should come here from there and expect things to be the same. Indeed, this board has been a stepping stone for many to Linn's board. If those of more awareness or higher soul development were to leave because this board is not as sweet and nice as the other, they would be lowering the energy of this board and doing a disservice to those who are drawn here for a reason.

To those that think Linn's board is 'all that', I would respectfully point out that although the energy on this board seems to tilt too far towards the masculine (analogously), I would say the energy of Linn's board leans too far towards the feminine. I don't think either board is entirely balanced. But each serves its purpose, drawing those that need, or are needed, to be at each (or both).

Almost every night, there is a retrieval waiting for me in my apartment when I get home (I am one of those who do them in my sleep and I am more than aware of it). All are decent, usually polite, people who are often nervous, even scared. I usually have something in common with them, so I energetically resonate with them and they come to me or their guides bring them. Most don't realize they've passed. On the other hand, my guides let a dark entity (a wicked person in life) try his best to intimidate me, poltergeist-like, out of my last apartment (his space), and when that didn't work, to attack my when I OBE'ed while sleeping, as a learning point. I didn't have the awareness to use PUL, but I resisted him and he left. Now they want me to do Spirit Releasement 'Therapy' for him to assist those who can assist him into the Light, since I can get his attention.

I am here to help those who have passed. I've had many past lives as both soldiers and healers/shamans/priests. Do I pick and choose who I assist, preferring only those who are nice and polite? Would being that way be for the highest good, or as Kyo likes to put it, cosmoethical? Or do I maintain perspective, compassion and Love for all, regardless, knowing that I can be strong and Good at the same time, knowing that the people I detest, those that attack me, those that are demonic or 'evil', are those who need my help the most?

As any surfer will tell you, it's the rogue waves that propel you, not the nice regular ones. I can't tell you how often I've heard graduates of TMI say they've never encountered a dark entity. Must be nice. Yet the DE that attacked me taught me as much as all the nice ones combined. He showed my how strong I am, while giving me a wake-up call at the same time.

We all have our 'demons' to deal with. In the final analysis, since we are all brothers and sisters and none are 'better' than another, the demon is really inside ourselves, that being fear-based thinking. Do we run when things get rough, or do we look inside ourselves and do the work that really needs to be done instead of focusing on someone else?

Yeah, there are those on this board who are antagonistic. But they could be a lot worse.

Love,
Rob

Petrus - thanks so much for joining in on this conversation.  You're hitting "bulls-eyes" with all your posts.  And Bob and Alysia's responses add more icing to the cake.  Here's what I've gathered so far concerning "hollow" heavens:

If you truly believe in a "hollow" heaven before you discard your body you will attain that hollow heaven on the other side after crossing over.    But only people who believe the same as you can reside in that "hollow" heaven.  Walls, visible or invisible, need to surround such a heaven in order to protect the believers from negative influences from outsiders who believe differently.  Until someone in that community starts to question or doubt the belief system or feels the slightest bit of unfulfillment they are stuck there for how ever long it takes.

As far as life reviews go, it may be that you have to be ready for that event before it can happen to you.  In other words, if you truly believe that the people you hurt deserved to die (because of the "supposed" threat that they impose on you and your loved ones), then perhaps the life review would not be very effective at that time.  If CW's or helpers are the ones to set up such an event, it would seem more advantageous to wait until someone starts to seperate from a hollow heaven before subjecting them to a life review.  That way it will have the greatest effect and help the individual the most.

Mathew I hope this helps...
If someone is really into ugly and extremely dark deeds, when they die they don't automatically see the light and know that they were evil.  Quite the contrary, they seek darkness so they can carry on their ugly deeds as far away from light as possible.  The individual has to desire to change in order for change to take place.

Thanks all.
Love Rick

Thanks Rick,

I've read some accounts of people who have died and had done evil acts while alive.  My impression from the reports were that when they cross over, they are in isolation and darkness.  This may or may not be true for the homicide bombers - we would need to communicate with one to know for sure.  

However, when a homicide bomber looks around the bus, at a two year old girl with a toy, a pregnant woman, an elderly man, riding the bus for different reasons, no matter how he spins it doing the will of Allah, he KNOWS that the killing act is wrong.  Islam does not, as a whole condone killing.  The ten commandments are known universally.  His soul or essence knows this.  And the laws of karma are at work.

The life review, I maintain has been documented by too many people who had never before heard of it.  You are likely right in that a dark character might skip it completely and awaken in total darkness with his own kind.  I just don't know.  Eventually, the soul will need to review its actions for "closure."

Matthew

Greetings all. a very deep thread is this. thanks Rob, Petrus, Doc and Rick to give us more insight. everyone I left out, I include you. my thoughts this morning is the people who give me the most trouble are precisely the people I need in my life so I can figure out myself, why I feel that way and what belief I'm holding about them which possibly could be off the mark. a good match of the wits is something we humans like to engage at times for self discovery I'd say, but not for pure competitive reasons necessarily; you can get that by watching a football game.
what I found in my life that I'd rather have a cross word thrown at me, a misinterpretation of my intentions rather than to be ignored, so its all good the way I see it. I have to agree balance is a good thing of polarity energies. we seem to have a good balance of both here on this forum right now.
it was basically Bob's viewpoint of his trip to hell that started up this wonderful thread and draws us all into it and brings us together in thought. I like this togetherness very much. I have a feeling that too much negativity would have shut us down here, at least on this one thread, just as too much la de da positive energy with no thought behind it could have shut us down the same way.

in regards to the life review, all of us could be right. my viewpoint is that the life review most often begins when a person gets a lot of years on them..it just naturally occurs that you begin looking back at your life as death approaches to see if you did ok with the life or if you could have done better. I observed my mother doing her life review piece by piece at age 83, this with my grandmothers help, as her spirit guide.
as for me doing self retrievals was very much like doing the life review; owning all the parts of self, accepting that was what happened and I made efforts to be all right with it and think I succeeded. now when I pass over I'm already clear if I could have done better and dont have to be subjected to any big surprises. also when people go thru mid life crises, that is a lot like a self assessment period, or a belief system crash so its really a good time of life in disguise if they can get help from friends especially.

its important to mention that stuck people in hollow heavens are not of the opinion they are stuck, and its not a retrievers job to inform them of their error, because they do not feel they are in error or stuck. DP says judgment belongs to god because we humans are so prone to misuse our judgment of others. its like gossip. its a no no on the higher levels. it is for them to desire more life, to become a seeker within themselves and then guides can get their attention to assist; whether by a review of their experiences or to a school where education can take place.

just briefly I retrieved a rapist/murderer once and I was not the one who instructed him that what he did was wrong. a social worker guide took him off. as for his mentality I could see he was not aware or understanding the hurt he had caused. he was mainly feeling that he had no control over anything in his life, but he knew that if he raped and killed then for a moment he felt in control of another part of life. in addition his mother had told him he was worthless so he was trying to prove otherwise. it was all about his self image. the guides told me to find something good about him and start talking, then he would come with me. I talked my head off until the guide relieved me of duty. what I got out of this retrieval personally was a feeling that I was safe in the world from this type of person and no matter what they've done, they can be retrieved to a better place.

hugs, alysia

betson wrote on Jul 9^th, 2006 at 5:16pm:

Greetings--- Relatedly, Today on AOL they quoted the current pope as saying that he had seen (his) heaven and that it did not compare with the Vatican. He greatly preferred the Vatican---which has walls and is gilded. (So now the Islamists cannot say that this thread is biased against their beliefs, because it gets a bit more complicated than that.) bets

Do you have a link to that report?  I'm just curious as to Pope Benedict's comments regarding Heaven.  


Also, I have a question about these "hollow heavens", in regard to the Focus 27...say you go across, and are one of these Focus 27 folks, but you have some dear loved ones who were very strict religiously and would probably be in one of these BST territories.  Is there any way to find or visit them?  I'm curious as to your views on that, as most families have quite a mix of people regarding beliefs and seriousness toward conventional religions, though the members of that family still love each other greatly.  I would think family members would be looking for each other once on the other side.

>Is there any way to find or visit them?  I'm curious as to your views on that,
>as most families have quite a mix of people regarding beliefs and seriousness
>toward conventional religions, though the members of that family still love
>each other greatly.

Hey newway,
My own experience would suggest that it's entirely possible for relatives to visit an individual stuck in a BST.  Whether or not said individual would see *them* or be able to communicate with them on the other hand is a different story.

If, as one example, a person's idea of Hell was to be entirely alone in a black void, then the relatives of said person could definitely go into said void and attempt to speak with the person...but they most likely wouldn't be able to get through to them because it'd be the person's own perceptions/expectations (of being utterly alone) that would be blocking them out.

Another scenario though...when I possibly was shown the Islamic BST, it was from the perspective of being outside it, looking in.  I actually moved towards it in order to look at it in greater depth, but was blocked from going inside.  Although I didn't see anyone, my perception was that there were Helpers/some individuals nearby who didn't want me going in there because they were worried that if I did, it'd be at least a fair while before I came out! ;-)  

I figured that if I hadn't still been alive that of course wouldn't have been a problem...but going into a BST and potentially getting stuck there when projecting while alive could potentially mean the coma or death of the person and hence a screwing up of their life purpose...thus why I was blocked.

That might sound like a contradiction of what I said earlier about considering that hollow heaven a prison...but I will confess to being sufficiently hedonistic that if I knew that I could leave such a place at any time, although I undoubtedly *would* leave it in due course, I wouldn't necessarily mind visiting it for the equivalent of a few months or years first.  I suppose that says that I'm not quite as developmentally elevated as I might have hoped. ;-)

In the context of the Afterlife though, the only real perceptual difference between the Bahamas and Alcatraz are how difficult they are to leave.  In the case of the former, you can go there for a few weeks, have a great time, and then come back and go on with other things.  In the case of the latter, once you're there, leaving might be possible, but it's very, very difficult.

Petrus said: If, as one example, a person's idea of Hell was to be entirely alone in a black void, then the relatives of said person could definitely go into said void and attempt to speak with the person...but they most likely wouldn't be able to get through to them because it'd be the person's own perceptions/expectations (of being utterly alone) that would be blocking them out.


____
this is true I feel, but I need to think on this awhile. it may have something to do with a closed off heart, or a non active heart chakra, as I assume an open heart whether in this world or the next would allow folks to come into it. we've been talking about heart intelligence here on several threads so my mind is there.

I can relate my personal experience. I went to see my sister who left this earth rather suddenly at age 38 of several illnesses.  she had a lot of good points but one thing was she was controlling person and maybe took too much personally what life dishes out.

when I found her out there she had a new house and a new husband who followed behind her. her house was traditional and convention. I am different, all my houses verge on kooky or rather, not generally considered the best neighborhoods either.

her house was her consciousness. she invited me inside for a chat maybe, not sure why she invited me inside as we were never close. she had disowned me once, lol, everyone should get disowned..its a trip.  I declined her offer to come inside as I saw plastic on her couch. plastic on couches means no dirt will get on the couch if folks sit on it..but its no fun to sit on plastic so I declined and said I would keep in touch but I had to go. sometimes I think I wanted to be close to her and tried but she closed down when I approached..and so if I had entered her house our relationship would be the same as before, basically a one way conversation. still, she's my sis. I know I'll be visiting her again someday. but yea, we block each others communication and filter everything through our own set of filters.

cheers, alysia

Since I have thoughts that are similar to others I don't have anything new to add, but here are my two cents anyway.

A spirit who hangs around 75 imaginary, souless virgins isn't getting over. Eventually he'll find that such empty entertainment doesn't come close to making him feel good inwardly, and before he can discover the wondrous love and joy that exists within his soul and continue to grow spiritually, he'll have to become honest with himself and fess up to what he did.  Imaginary, souless virgins? Of course. It isn't like real female souls who could offer him true love would have to play the part of his women. Not unless a selfless spirit or two played such a role in order to help him wake up.

In no way do I believe that God, the higher self nor the guides of such a man would have judgemental feelings towards him. Certainly they would understand how easy it is to get confused while down here. The fact of how so many people do get confused shows that this is the case.

I feel very fortunate that I'm a person who gets to experience a lifetime that doesn't include negativity. In a way I give credit to people who experience negativity and do negative things, because I believe they are carrying the burden of the inevitable fact that if you have a World of duality that isn't limited by does and don'ts, some people are going to end up being people who express the negative possibilities.

I'm not certain, but my guess is that while many spirits have a life review shortly after they cross over, spirits who have really closed down their awareness don't. They aren't forced to do anything. That's why retrievels are needed.

Greetings newwayknight,
Re: the Pope's comments,-- because I have AOL as an internet 'server(?)', a title page comes up with various news bites that change throughout the day.  That article is gone now, so I did a google search using 'pope benedict July 10 heaven' as descriptors. I read 4--5 of what came up and could not find anything that quoted him on that, altho he has been talking about heaven alot.
I hope you realize I was not mocking him to post it. I only thought it of interest because he said (AOL said he said) 'my' heaven, and I'd never heard that personal a description before, and it seemed to support the idea that heavens may vary. He probably was smiling when he said it, eh?
bets
 

betson wrote on Jul 12^th, 2006 at 4:35pm:

Greetings newwayknight, Re: the Pope's comments,-- because I have AOL as an internet 'server(?)', a title page comes up with various news bites that change throughout the day.  That article is gone now, so I did a google search using 'pope benedict July 10 heaven' as descriptors. I read 4--5 of what came up and could not find anything that quoted him on that, altho he has been talking about heaven alot. I hope you realize I was not mocking him to post it. I only thought it of interest because he said (AOL said he said) 'my' heaven, and I'd never heard that personal a description before, and it seemed to support the idea that heavens may vary. He probably was smiling when he said it, eh? bets

I knew your intent on the post was genuine!  I was just HIGHLY curious as to his comments, as I would be with any Pope that publicly speaks of a mystical experience.  I have heard it said that the last Pope may have had Marian apparitions, though I cannot confirm that.  It would be highly intruiging to see what Benedict had to say.  If you do come across that again, pm me for sure.

http://members.tripod.com/chua_hai_duc/English%20Sutras/ksitigarbha_sutra.htm

a buddhist sutra about hell.. hope it useful for all who wish to know more abt hell and avoiding it.

all th best  :)