My twin soul Rob Roy wrote this at the request of a mutual soul mate who in turn was responding to a politically biased post on a Poet's forum.  I felt that it would be good to post it here as well.

"I think we often forget that knowing and believing are two very different things, and that the view from inside the television is very different than that seen from the sofa. Yet Americans I run into, upon hearing of my service in Iraq, rarely fail to try to impose upon me their unasked-for views on the subject, as though they know as well or better than I. Often, they use fallacious ruses such as free-speech rights claims, advanced degrees, and hearsay (from, supposedly, other veterans) as the authoritative basis for their ‘knowing.’

Those who are educated, for example, try to circumvent experience by argumentation as though intellectual abstraction, whether academic or artistic, is an adequate substitute for direct experience. They are extremely resistant to listening to those with experience because they insist on being reasoned with on their terms, as though rigorous abstraction is the revealer par excellence of truth. Full realization gained by direct experience of the the reality in question is the best teacher. Reality itself is the truth, and direct experience of it is the best instructor, however painful the lessons may be.

That’s not to say those who lack direct experience should not have opinions. Indeed, democratic societies require educated citizens, and with education comes considered opinion (or so we like to believe). However, those with opinions, however well considered, should have the humility to maintain respect for the profound difference between believing and knowing, between being inside the t.v. and sitting on the sofa (or writing on a message board).

“Many say that the troops in Iraq have become the target, and most of the violence is not "terrorism" in the Osama bin Laden sense of the word, but a nationalist fight against occupiers.”

The vast majority of those dying in Iraq today are private Iraqi citizens, not Coalition troops or even insurgents. A simple tabulation from the evening news reveals that. And yes, they are in fact targeted, and have been from the beginning. And, btw, there is no sense of ‘collateral damage’ from the POV of insurgents. The more, the merrier. At the very least: “Oh well. Who lives and who dies is the will of God.” I’ve seen this attitude expressed by Iraqis on both sides, first hand. It paradoxically accounts for much of both their bravery and cowardice.

I will add that there are many, many different groups fighting in Iraq, many with disparate and even conflicting goals. Not all of them are fighting the occupation. Some are simply fighting each other (i.e. Shiite vs. Sunni; those who have oil vs. those who don’t; ongoing family vendettas). Regardless, innocent Iraqis seem to be always in the way and they bear the brunt of the suffering, as do the family members of those fighting, including those of the insurgents, and, let’s not forget, the soldiers and insurgents themselves.

The issue, it seems to me, is not the legitimacy of the invasion or the success of democracy in Iraq, but rather the profound and unending suffering of the Iraqi people, and whether (or not) this suffering will result in a situation that is better for this people and the world, or at least one that both can live with. This is clearly a period of transition, of discernment, and it’s unfortunate in the extreme that this process entails the shedding of an ocean of blood and tears by everyone involved in this conflict. Until we see the end result, I don’t think there’s much anyone can say, except that which will help end this conflict in a way that meets the highest good of the Iraqi people and the world, and how we should, together, go about achieving that end." (written by Rob Roy)


Love
Irene  

May there be peace in the World and may the innocent victims who have been injured or given up their lives on earth be comforted.

I agree the core issue is to end the suffering of all sentient beings.

I also think it is highly important to see how we got into this situation.

I have passionate feelings about this war, a sense of outrage. But NOT towards the military. I just wish the policy-makers were not living in fantasyland.

Love to Irene & Rob Roy (and YOU)

          Tim F.

What can I say but to add my support!
I hope to one day live in a world where we live as one with love and compassion for all.
Materialism is the core issue in most disputes, and we are unlikely to change that soon.
I try and do what I can for peace and hope that one day we can all make a difference
with love to all

It's a curious side effect of freedom of speech that on some topics we sem to think we have an obligation to express our opinions. In school we are taught to have the "right" answer but not how to listen to all sides.

I don't think that the opinions that bend Rob Roy's ears are necessarily wrong but it is sad that they don't ask you what you think, given your experiences.

It is probably a fallacy to say we are in Iraq for some certain reason or another in terms of human behavior and history and philosophy and metaphysics, but we did get there by a rather stupid path (part of which was George W. wanting to avenge his father...how smart could that be?). I am just beginning to philosophically understand how spirit can use these puke-y situations for growth. If we did manage to eliminate war, would we lose a major growth path? The stories that come out of war are often incredible. I can only sit back and watch in wonder. I recall Joseph Campbell's telling that someone had told him the experience of the firebombing of Dresden was sublime. That gave me comfort as one of my own (obviously non-war) experiences was so terrible to me that it felt sublime, or the reaction it caused in me did, something no one around me could comprehend. Some things are so horrible they open to the transcendent. I bet that happens alot more than we know in combat. But nobody wants to hear about it.

Why are the Iraqi citizens so vulnerable to what is happening to them and what does that mean? I had a friend who used to express the thought of not understanding how the people in the death camps in WW II could outnumber the guards so much yet could not plan their escape. His claim was that if they had been Marines they would have found a way to escape! The idea being that Americans are less complacent (or used to be). Could the kind of thing happening in Iraq with the civilians happen in the US? We have a different mind set here. It is easy to remember the flight on 9/11 where the passengers took action...how very American of them!..just a thought...about cultural differences. Rob Roy, when people challenge you, what happens when you ask them what they would do in some particular situation? (sort of an extension of that old saying my father loved to quote about no atheists in a fox hole, based on his personal experiences).

I like something Alysia just quoted from herself on the book club thread:



Quote:

DP:  It is a diverse world; each viewpoint is valid. LR:  And no right or wrong...

Lucy,

That was a thoughful response. Thank you.

When others fail to resist their impulse to tell me about Iraq, I generally engage them nicely, ignore their presumption, and treat them as though their positions are credible (not usually), new and insightful (almost never), and worth listening to (they are as individuals, but not usually their recycled opinions). Sometimes they are using politics as a pretense to feel me out, because they have lost someone and I am a point of contact for them. I usually don't know who they are unless I engage them positively, so that is the biggest reason I don't argue with them or try to correct them.

What they don't understand, and I rarely tell them, those who are just being impetuous, is that I don't care about weapons of mass destruction, oil, seventy virgins, and so forth. I am usually thinking about a friend who came back and who lies in a coma, who visited me, debating whether he should pass or not (he won't). I am thinking about another friend who also came back in a coma, having suffered from third degree burns and other injuries for months before he died (he visited me too, afterwards).  I'm thinking about others I know who passed and wondering who is next. These other people who see the war on t.v. only understand the difference in an abstract way, which is why the t.v. wins in their minds, it being something that makes a bigger, daily, impression upon them. They ought to see, in person, a greiving mother breaking down in front of hundreds of people, most of them vets, just for starters. They can do that here, without having to actually go to Iraq, where there are such mothers beyond count. Then maybe they'll begin to understand that their *opinions* about lies, WMD's, oil and so forth really don't mean a damn thing. This issue is **suffering**, writ large, and what we are now going to do about it. I don't think people are focused enough on this issue. Otherwise, they wouldn't approach a vet with their *political* opinions (grieving loved ones excepted).

I understand that this is happening for the highest good. I believe this. Ultimately, issues of WMD, oil, and the Bush's *apparent* (to him) motives pale beside this simple spiritual fact.

When people go on about Bush, and I agree with much of what they think , I'm also reminded that Bill Clinton failed to intervene during the holocaust in Rwanda, something he has said is the single biggest failure of his administration. Standing by when a million people are getting slaughtered with machetes is, to me, something that even Bush has a long way to catch up to. But again, there's the bigger picture and I cannot judge.

I agree that all opinions have merit, at least to the person that holds them. Someone may be *entitled* to their opinions, but I am not required to agree with them or even listen to them. But I am also aware that sometimes, often, maybe always, everyone is a lesson and what that lesson actually is may not be immediately apparent. And I am a lesson for others as well.

I think the spiritual lessons are what's most important here, not politics, not even the war itself which is politics by other means.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response.

Love,
Rob

I try to console myself with the fact that everyone chooses their life plan. And that the love and compassion that we feel for the victims, no matter which side they are on, is what we are learning. I could go and on, but I won't. I just want to say that I hope that when all the men and women come home, that it won't be like after the View Nam war where Americans turned their backs on the returning troops.

With Love,
Mairlyn

wow yes having friends in comas "drop in" for a visit might alter one's perception of what is important. I see what you are getting at. It almost seems like this is an issue of letting the focus on C1 issues slide back and looking at something more fundamental.

but it doesn't take war to make that happen. A popular teacher at my son's high school, after a 2.5 year "war" with cancer, teaching until this past April, passed over last week, the day before graduation.  She was 30 something.

What is really important, the political issues or the way we interact? We might win the war but lose the humanity.

Hi Rob,

  I really like the spirit behind your post. I don't know many things you know.

  You say that you understand that everything happens for the highest good. I don't have that understanding. I don't even have that as a belief. I don't disbelieve it either. I just don't know.

  It doesn't seem that things are pre-ordained down here on this mud-ball, that things are written in stone, that everything that happens here is following a prior plan. I may learn differently someday.

  I don't disagree with what you're saying about responding to suffering. If you have a heart and a conscience, how can you not respond to suffering? For myself, I do disagree with the idea that responding  to suffering and political engagement are inherently two different things. I'm not talking about someone imposing their views on another, blind to the presence of the other person. I'm talking about engagement, not argument.

 I believe an active interest in the political process is important. It doesn't have to be separate from spiritual work.

         With respect to All,

                                    Tim F.

 

Thank you, Rob Roy,
and Irene and others,
for sharing such enlightened views on a subject that sometimes seems mired in darkness.
Contacting people in comas seems like another way retrievers and friends could help create bridges. Do you Rob Roy have any advice for anyone who might think of trying it? Has it been discussed yet on its own previous thread?
bets

O. K. Hands Up!!

I'm hijacking the thread!

....because one of you may be able to offer me understanding.

Here's a story. I know all the folks involved, the 'spiritual teacher', the 'sister' and the 'brother'.

She was at a talk by a famous teacher of non-duality named 'primordial peace'. Her bald head was wrapped in a scarf to sorta of hide the effects of the chemo treatments she'd been undergoing. At the end of the talk (which her brother wanted her to attend) there was space for questions. She raised her hand and was called on..

 "I'm afraid'', she said through tears. "My brother has been talking to me about committing suicide and I think he's going to do it"

 "Your brother is fine", the teacher said.

"No, I really think he's going to kill himself" she said.
"He's suffering".

"Bring me your brother's suffering" the teacher said, smiling beautifically (the dude DOES have a wonderful smile) "Bring me your suffering" he said.

'Don't give me that zen crap' she thought through her tears. She said no more to him. ("Tim", she later said to me. "There i am, obviously a cancer patient, and he's giving me that zen crap while I ask for help about my brother?" I am listening to this story through my own tears. Because we're talking about her brother, my friend Steve, who committed suicide a week after the talk with the teacher, primordial peace.

Now if that fellow is enlightened (and I have no reason not to think he isn't) he was just responding from his viewpoint. The big view that there is nothing wrong, no matter what. But let me say... it did not help that suffering person one f*cking bit. It seemed to make things worse.

My lesson from this is: f*ck enlightenment. Let me be there for others in the way that they need, not the way that I feel.

(Here's how you can help me)

What would you do? Everything is perfect as-it-is and.... there is suffering in this world.

(btw, I saw Steve in spirit, after his suicide... He WAS fine)

 Does any of this make sense?

          Love, Tim F.


(holy @*#$!!  What is a bird doing flying in my house right now? The windows are shut! Where did it come from?)

i'm back, after chasing a bird and finally getting it in a big paper bag and then freeing it before my cats got it, that's what got my attention was seeing the cats racing in front of my altar, but where the laptop is, where i'm typing, is right next to the cat door, all the windows have screens, the cats were sleeping when i came in a while ago and fed them, that bird came from nowhere, thank Spirit i finally got it in the bag and out the window, i need a break, gonna sit in front of the altar, lordy, i couldn't make this stuff up if i tried, i am sweating, i live across from a pub, maybe one cold beer... friends, i think i just got the feedback i was asking for. bless you all, i am so happy to save that bird, seeing it fly away into open air is a great gift, THANK YOU...

Ya know, Tim, that was a very interesting post to me. I had posted a very brief note about the teacher who died last Friday. She was still teaching at the first of April but left because the chemo was making her so tired. Someone saw her at school a month or so ago and she had lost all her hair from the chemo (like your friend). Then suddenly she is dead. I have been having thoughts wondering if she suicided at the end, and I don't know why, as it doesn't seem consistent with her personality. But it was interesting to read your story today.

I like setting the bird free.

I notice Lisa's (the teacher) family wrote that they "take solace that Lisa is in a better place". Who knows, if they believe she will continue, maybe they will see her in spirit some time. I told my son her spirit would probably be at the memorial service this afternoon. He thinks I am nuts.

Since you found your answer, it is probably not exciting to comment on Steven Gray's comment, but it is still relevant to the thread. Yes we are all fine on that higher level, and we will all fly away some day. But does that mean we should lack compassionate action to help those hurt by war or to stop a suicide? Maybe this is a split betwen Eastern and Western thought. Has the sister recovered from this? Now that you feel he (the brother)  is fine, what do you think right action would have been?

I like this song:

Some glad morning when this life is o'er,
I'll fly away;
To a home on God's celestial shore,
I'll fly away.

CHORUS:
I'll fly away, O glory,
I'll fly away;  
When I die, Hallelujah, by and by,
I'll fly away.

When the shadows of this life have grown,
I'll fly away;
Like a bird from prison bars has flown,
I'll fly away.

Just a few more weary days and then,
I'll fly away;
To a land where joys shall never end,
I'll fly away.

Albert E. Brumley