Here is a link to an article that I thought some might find interesting/discussable:

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

Thank you, Sir!
Wow!  
The parallels with Bruce's information are considerable.   I particularly appreciated that Kira saw the 'wheel' with her incarnations attached that Bruce calls the Disk.
Those of you who have tried other means for spiritual contact will have some fascinating comments on this too, I hope. :o
Maybe we could invite author Kira to this site.
A side comment--the green color that signifies, according to those Peruvian shamans, activity of the third eye, is often used on TV for battle scenes. Someone  said it is also the color soldiers see when using infra-____ 'sight-enhancers' (don't know the name.) If battle scenes are fed into the third eye artificially, what might that do to the spirit receiving such information?

Pretty interesting. Thanks for the link. Have you read Michael Harner?

Hi C-A

There's a huge amount of parallel information at [url]www.Lycaeum .org[/url] and at www.erowid.org.

The problem is the tendency for people to get sidetracked into the "fun trip" and forget about the more serious business of methodical inquiry. Much of the information "liberated" by use of psychedelics is at a level of comprehension far beyond the psychonaut who is observing it. Watching the blinking lights and strange shapes while chanting, "Ooooh, golly gee whiz," is not a particularly effective way of learning.

If there is a real interest in use of chemical enhancers, it would be most useful to establish preliminary guidelines and goal etc, which is rarely what people want when they take something  As an example, the late Ken Kesey said that his attitude was, "Amaze me!" which is hardly a scientifically useful posture.

As another example, I spent about 5 years in the '60s trying to create order out of a drug chaos, mostly with LSD and tryptamines, and while the information was all there, just as it is now, it came by out of context and without explanation. As a result, I'm still rediscovering it through formal techniques.

I'm inclined to suggest that without organization, drugs offer a great deal, but it is tremendlously hard to access it.

d

I wonder if a lot of what she saw were creations of her own mind. In addition to seeing the devil and demons; see saw snakes, bats and dragons. It is hard to imagine that snakes, bats and dragons actually exist in the astral. I mean, come on, it isn't like bats and snakes are actually evil.

Another thing to consider is that the devil was destroyed with white light. Does this mean that the "devil" himself was destroyed, or just the devil that her own mind created?

One time while at work with my mind's eye, I saw a horrific, ragefull, image of myself as a demon, squirming within me. I understood this to be an aspect of myself that was created by my own fears. I kept this aspect of myself hidden for a while, until I was ready to look at it. The things we can create with our own mind, my oh my. If anybody thinks a demon was actually there, I don't believe you would think so if you knew the kind of person I am.

People tend to think of demons as beings who have characteristics such as hate, rage and ill will.  Such possible trates also exist within each of us, and so does the ability to create imagery that seems horrific.  With this in mind, it seems to me that an earthbound spirit could take on a nature that seems demonic.  I don't believe that there is a such thing as an infinite pool of negative qualities such as hate, anger and fear. Rather, sometimes beings, whether physical or non-physical, use the creative aspects of their mind to create such negative properties.

I do believe it is possible for one to attract negative earthbound spirits to one's self, if one has negative tendencies of mind taking place within. Some of these earthbound spirits might seem demonic, but if you see what is behind the facade they create and present, you'll see that the vastness of their source, God, abides.  Apparently this background didn't exist for the devil, demons, snakes, bats, and dragons this lady saw (since they were destroyed in white light), which suggests once again she experienced creations of her own mind.

Her multiple incarnation images were interesting.  It goes along with what Robert Monroe seemed to find when he discovered his I-there. His prior incarnations still existed. This suggests that reincarnation doesn't exist in the manner that is traditionally thought of. Rather, each incarnation is a self unto itself that is connected to other selves that incarnate in different time periods, and form one larger self.

I also found a lot of parallels between what was written in the article and what Bruce Moen and Robert Monroe have written. I also believe that what she experienced was akin to the I/There disk... Also, her descriptions of incarnations I found to be highly intruiging...

I'm going to have to check out the link that you've so kindly provided dave. I also agree with you on that "sidetracking" issue with regards to drug use and not taking methodical inquiry seriously. I have known numerous people who have experimented with drug use only to engage/interpret within that experience via surface level deduction/reasoning.

PUL,
Cosmic_Ambitions

HI C-A

As one of those who "experimented" - I inhaled! - I inhaled damn near everything, in fact-  and I got pretty well lost in chemical masturbation.  It's a very low yield activity.  

The loss involved is not from the chemicals, which can actually be useful, but from the attitude of wanting more stimulation, more fun, more gratification, regardless of what it might mean.  It eventually leads to stealing drugs just to get high, and to the associated chemical hell.

If you are seriously interested in methodical inquiry in this area I'd be very interested in learning more about what you're up to! There's darn little interest in self control in this area, but there's definitely room for serious inquiry for those who are willing to control their passions.

PUL, my friend-
dave

Here are my thoughts of Kira's ordeal. I perceive Kira's visions as looking into the insecurities of her "self within herself". She is insecure of reaching the ultimate goal" Does God exist or not exist? Religioius belief has a great bearing on one's security of thought. For Kira, God only existed after great self-inflecting pain within her inner turmoil had been achieved. Now, only, does she feel worthy of her ulitmate goal of receiving pure unconditional love. (Not unlike that of Martin Luther who tied a notted rope tightly around his waist to cause great physical pain in order to accept his own worthiness from Jesus as his savior.)
First she encompases evil before good (God). She embarces great physical pain and mental anguish before healing. To Kira, God was unreachable until she expierenced the "dark side" of her spirituality.
She associates the darkness of bats, serpant and dragons as a vehicle to release her deamons form within. She uses drugs as an "easy fix" to reach her ultimate goal---God, when in reality the drug only translutes her fears (with that of a green, frosted-like or haze-like color). Green is the heart chakra color which equals the emotion of love.
In the end, I see her questioning her self worth as she focuses on the "snake in the vomit bowl" rather than the pure unconditional love of the Father God which materialized himself before her.
In my thoughts, this is the residue of the drugs which holds the darkness over her. This is very sad. She should be focusing on the positive spiriual high she received, not the negitive unworthiness dumped in the vomit bowl.

That is :
---greatly translutes her personal fears---

sorry about the typ-o

I guess someone is trying to tell me something because this is twice that I have tried to say--

the drugs make her fears translucid with that of a green, frosted-like or haze-like color.

I apoligize for the computer translating it differently.

Hi,
identcat wrote:

>>>She should be focusing on the positive spiriual high she received, not the negitive unworthiness dumped in the vomit bowl. <<<

Yes, I agree. But I see also a good thing in this, it is a method of distancing herself from the "bad"; to see it's real and it's gone, and therefore to implant it strongly in her mind. It's very much like the "demons", which in a different approach one might say "own fears" or "aspects of self". When you imaginate it as standing before you, outside yourself (but also still with you, a sort of inner dialogue) this is a powerful way to deal with it, to either welcome it or leave it.

Spooky

Spooky--- Her last words were---"I don;t know anything--"
This left me with the feeling that she didn't decifer her vomit-snake as a positive sign that her negitivity had finally left her.  Perhaps I am incorrect in my translation of her last words??? The ending of her story just left me with a sadness inside.  
I hope your interpretation is the correct one!!

Love and Light--Carol Ann

Quote:

"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."   Alexander Pope

This story of Kira's brings up so many points. It is hard to choose where to start.

The story is about shamanism and hallucinaogenics. Combined, they are a potent mix. I'm not sure all shamanism uses drugs. Shamanism is found the world over. If Laplanders use hallucinogens, then I'm pretty sure they aren't the ones in this story! Yet I think some of the images are universal. I'm not sure on this, but surely one of you has looked this up? Michael Harner just uses drums in his book (not that he didn't take vine medicine at one time) but he gets results without drugs and some of the symbols that come up are the same. You can't interpret this Peru story until you know what it means that some of the symbols are universal.

Advocating exotic drugs for mental health has been going on a long time. (OK OK since before recorded history, but I mean more recently in published articles). One person who has been into this for 40 or so years is Claudio Naranjo.
http://mdma.net/claudio-naranjo/index.html
Actually there is enough stuff at the links in this site for a year's worth of discussion. If we are going to really discuss the Peru article we need to know that this struff exists and has been hashed over quite a bit. (after I typed that sentance I realized what words I'd used but decided to leave it)

Kira's article is actually quite coherent, considering how chaotic experiences such as hers can be. What is interesting about shamanic experiences is the consistency of the images and the ability of the shamans (shamen?) to know what was happening in her mind. And how kind they were.

I have trouble with analyses that reduce this sort of thing to just chemical reactions in the brain, because ultimately, physical reality is just a creation of mind, so it too is just chemical reactions in the mind.

Building a system in which negativity is conceptualized as demons is very clever, actually. Because then if you have a system for getting rid of demons, then you can get rid of the negativity. I was amused at how blase she became about seeing demons in her visions.  I liked her description of the green color and the geometric shapes. Sometimes when I am between wake and sleep I fall into a space sort of like that. I never thought that maybe I was seeing something with my third eye when that happened. I like that idea. So why is it so hard to accept that there might be specific "locations" in nonphysical reality?

yeah her retrieval of herself as a child was classic Bruce Moen stuff. Or maybe Bruce's stuff is classic shamanism in another form, who knows.See you don't really need drugs to do that, but I guess it helps some people. It would be interesting to get a follow-up story on how she felt later on. Did the reintegration of her splintered child change things in her life?


Quote:

Then I could have my old world back, in which I thought I knew what was real and unreal, true and untrue. Now the problem is, I don't know anything.

Classic belief system crash, which was recently being discussed a little on another thread.

I question the wisdom of using a really potent drug to work on one's self psychologically.

recoverer

having lived through at least some of the so-called drug revolution (mostly as a spectator), I realize the shortcomings of self-medication with some of these substances...(or with alcohol for that matter but almost everyone does that). Having known of people who died while playing with drugs, I don't think this stuff is trivial.

however, when done correctly and with supervision (hmm...that breaks in to Super Vision) it seems to have a positive outcome for some people.

why do you question it; have you read any of the literature?

maybe the point is that it is hard to work on one's self in isolation

and it is not for everyone.

But does that make the results not "valid"?

My take on drugs is that they have great potential, if used correctly. The problem is control.

Most shamans do not use anything except meditation. Hypnosis (another form of mediotation) can do the same thing, but it takes a while to advance spiritually and to develop the skills, and we tend to be lazy.  As a result we get huge amounts of data of which we can interpret ony a tiny amount, according to how far we have advanced spiritually.

For the average person, drugs are rather like a laxative for a clogged mind. All kinds of stuff comes out, but as a steady diet, there are far more nourishing things.

d

Lucy:

I can't say what works in all cases, but some types of growth and problem resolution shouldn't be rushed. Powerfull drugs don't seem like the best approach for an unstable mind. Traumatic results might be obtained. Plus it seems like the shamans who worked with her imposed their ideas about things as they did so. It's questionable that she actually interacted with numerous demons rather than her own mind creations, considering she also saw snakes, bats, dragons, (What happened to the spiders?) and the devil, who by the way, after all these years, was apparently extinguished.


wrote on Jun 5^th, 2006 at 12:51pm:

recoverer having lived through at least some of the so-called drug revolution (mostly as a spectator), I realize the shortcomings of self-medication with some of these substances...(or with alcohol for that matter but almost everyone does that). Having known of people who died while playing with drugs, I don't think this stuff is trivial. however, when done correctly and with supervision (hmm...that breaks in to Super Vision) it seems to have a positive outcome for some people. why do you question it; have you read any of the literature? maybe the point is that it is hard to work on one's self in isolation and it is not for everyone. But does that make the results not "valid"?

I don't expect this to really make sense but i want to say it anyway, but I think the problem of whether or not the demons really exist is not easily answered but somehow this article relates to it:

http://www.magicandreason.com/pdf/AfterTheRevolution-JosephFelser.pdf

and I found the link to it above (Bruce's links)

I always likes that quote:

"What is real?" said the Velveteen Rabbit.

we create demons and we not-create them.

which is real?

I don't know Lucy; I'm a died in the wool TMI follower; anything I don't want rubbing up against me I simply see it not there.
:P  seems to be working ok.

Right, isn't that how one non-creates?

The funny thing is, that the images come up for people going throiugh this experience who aren't from this culture. And they come up for non-vine-induced shamanic experiences too. Maybe there is something valid to that Jungian collective subconcious thing. Reminds me of the story RAM told of repeatedly visiting a place that had a particular structure in it, and no one there could recall who built the structure...or why. But it was there in that region.  It was in the conciousness of that region.

Likewise the bats and spiders and demons and so forth are there in the shamanic space, and they serve a purpose.

I keep thinking of the earlier film version of The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe...the kids are in Narnia and they get to the big battle scene, and the witch has assembled all the "bad" creatures, which, being animated, look a bit other-worldly to me. I keep thinking the demons in the shamanic world must resemble that sometimes.

So if you don't need spiders and demons and all that Halloween stuff to get to the deep parts of your subconcious, well that's great. I assume that your (hypothetical) ayahuasca trip would be quite different!

But personifying fears as yucky things like snakes and spiders has a use, because then you can name them and then you can deal with them.

of course, Alysia. you have to realize (  ;) ) that I am always thinking in terms of what forms a sort of meta-description of different realities. I do this all the time quite without remorse. I am not as eloquent or mathematical or successful at this as is our Dave, who I think also does this sort of thing, nor do I necessarily reach the same conclusions as others, but that does not stop me!!!

I was looking for something else when I found this about sleep paralysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

and I think the picture is really great!

but one thing that was really interesting was all theinformation about other cultures considering that the sleep paralysis is associated with demons.

Also fit in, for me, with what Alysia was saying elsewhere about
"If all is illusion are you all the illusion or am I the illusion?"

(http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1149974459)

why did so many cultures use the illusion of demon to explain sleep paralysis? or maybe Mr. Jung has the answer to that....

A very interesting subject, that i'd like to add my pennies worth - but i have to go now so just brought it to the front for now.

a link that adds further:

http://dailygrail.com/node/2113

The above link is to Graham Hancocks latest book 'Supernatural' - it is a briliant book and recommend to anyone pondering DNA, DMT and Alien abductions.  Has anyone read it?

i'll just copy a clip of the review here;

"In this chapter Hancock provides a marvelous illustration of the correspondences between shamanic experiences and the ‘alien abduction’ phenomenon (surrounded by quotes because Hancock is certainly not arguing for ‘nuts and bolts’ UFOs and aliens). It’s a good, solid introduction to what is a quite bizarre topic, and hopefully it provides enough evidence to draw the more ‘straight-thinking’ readers into the following chapters. It also shows (sadly) how little we really understand about ‘alien abductions’, while at the same time presenting ways forward for research, with the many parallels to psychic experiences.

Subsequent chapters add in Vallee’s link between fairy folklore and UFO experiences. In fact, Supernatural virtually becomes a comparative mythology investigation, with the subjects being shamanic voyages, fairy folklore and alien abduction reports. Time after time, Hancock presents stunning evidence to show that these are all part of a single phenomenon. Furthermore, in part four of the book he ties in DMT, the DNA element of shamanic visions (as explored by Narby, Harner and others), and the idea that information encoded within our ‘Junk DNA’ may be facilitating our ‘education’, by either advanced alien civilisations or entities from parallel/spiritual dimensions. Lastly, like a prodigal son returning to his roots, he discusses how this may relate to art and religion in ancient civilisations, specifically the Egyptians and Mayans"

I agree with Dave that certain drugs may be beneficially in relaxing or clearing a blocked mind .. and here maybe we can bring in hemisync.  The anti-drug campaigns should say - "Do not take drugs because they are so nice" and i think this is where teenagers etc get confused they are told not to take drugs because they are bad but the teenager has a line of coke, say, and finds that it is actually very nice .. so then he does not trust the person or the belief that drugs are bad because he finds them nice and the drugs (temporarily) puts his mind in a better place than reality.  A real problem.

(i'd like to say that reality is the biggest high and yes there are far more nourishing things then chemical highs ... food yes optimises our body, air, and much rather a love high than a drug high)

Hancock discusses drugs (and more) in his book and i'd like to summarise it briefly here if i may in my next post.